tv Charlie Rose PBS August 6, 2012 11:30pm-12:30am EDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. to want, a conversation about syria with henry kissinger, former secretary of state. >> too much in this country on the issue of how you remove assad. that, i think, is going to happen. but the really important... the key question is what happens in syria after assad is removed. is it possible to form a government that governs the whole country? is it possible to create such a government without it trying to unify itself by a combination of islamism and extreme nationalism? >> rose: we continue with a look at a new movie "hope springs". we'll have the director david
frankel, three of the film's stars: meryl streep, tommy lee jones and steve carell. >> you want to feel alive. you want to feel the day. you know, the feeling of being in love and when it first happens to you and how connected you are to every moment, to every sense, to every piece of music. you just... you're more hyperaware and over time people settle for not. >> rose: henry kissinger, meryl streep, tommy lee jones, david frankel and steve carell in ntco.ue coinue.
here. he is the former secretary of state and national security advisor. his history of brokering peace in the middle east informs his perspective on that region. he has shared his views on syria egypt and the arab spring in a "washington post" column. i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. it's been a while. >> good to be here. too long. >> rose: so tell me. we now have a new defection in syria, the prime minister. what are the options for bashar al-assad? >> i think that the government of assad is coming to an end. how much of it he can salvage it's hard to know. i don't think he can salvage anything of his personal role. >> rose: he will no longer be head of government in syria? >> he will not be a head of a government whose thread runs across all of syria. that is not possible.
so... but i think the removal of a central government in syria then leads to the question of who governs. not just in the point of view of what person governs but what ethnic group is the dominant group? and if it isn't one ethnic group then it's conceive to believe create some sort of a balance between the various ethnic groups as lebanon has tried and sometimes succeeded but it's at the moment not succeeding. that, i think, is the most likely outcome. >> rose: what's the most likely outcome? >> the most likely outcome is that... that assad will collapse. the assad government... >> rose: he's gone. >> rose:... as we know it will collapse in some form. but the assad government was really the front for the alawite
domination of syria. with a minority, 13%, a shiite sect in a country in which the majority is sunni but only barely a majority. because they are a christians. and most of the minorities are leaning towards the alawites. but on... >> rose: they're afraid of sunni rule? >> they know that the alawites' reach needs to be limited because of the minority status that may not be the case in the majority government of sunnis. >> rose: what happens to someone like bashar al-assad? in the beginning there were people saying "maybe he'll be different than his father. maybe he'll be a reformer." then somebody will always step forward and quote lord acton and say "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
>> from the point of view of personal history, one can have some feeling for assad in this sense. he was a surgeon, an ophthalmologist surgeon he chose ophthalmology as a career. that is not a career chosen by the power hungry. he was living in a western city. his brother was supposed to be theary. he got killed in an automobile accident and they hauled him back from his ophthalmology practice and put him in charge of a mafia type organization that governs syria. >> rose: first they made him a general. >> yes, but he looks... he... i don't know him. i knew his father quite well but
he looks an unlikely front man for a dictatorship. >> rose: but in the end, the people didn't doubt that he was running things. "in the end" i mean... >> the clan was running things. he, his mother, his family. >> rose: his brother-in-law who was killed. >> his brother-in-law was who was in the intelligence. there's absolutely no doubt that the assad clan method of governing was by intimidating all opposition. >> rose: there is this idea that has some currency-- some. can it possibly work? the idea is that he will retreat in some kind of passage to some small enclave that will be all alawite and try to be the leader of the alawites there protected by whatever military means he has and perhaps by the fact of
its proximity to a russian port. >> it's conceivable that syria breaks up into constituent ethnic groups. and it's conceivable that as part of this... an alawite entity forms and that he remains as the figure head or the actual head, maybe, of that entity. >> rose: and the big question, then, is will they, if that happens, control the chemical weapons? the alawites. >> we can't tolerate... that can't be tolerated. >> rose: so somebody will have to do sometng about that. >> somebody has to do something about that. >> rose: so if they try to transfer the chemical weapons to where they are then... >> but i also think, charlie, that too much of our discussion in this country is on the issue of how you remove assad. that, i think, is going to happen but the really important... the key question is
what happens in syria after assad is removed? is it possible to form a government that governs the whole country? is it possible to create such a government without it trying to unify itself by a combination of islamism and extreme nationalism? is it possible that syria or... likely that syria breaks up into an alawite unit, a sunni unit, a kurd unit so that then there are a number of uncontrollable spots towards which the outside world will find it very hard to define a relationship so that it had so of the attributes of somalia. so that there's nobody you can really... >> rose: but if assad goes and soon is that inevitable? >> no, but it's a real danger. >> rose: and what could prevent it from happening?
somebody could emerge as a "central figure" who has the capacity to.... >> nobody has yet emerged and most people who deal with the opposition agree that the opposition is extremely divided among itself. the army, is, of course, part of the assad structure. most of the army... the army is dominated by alawite. so the army will be with the alawite unit so a national army will have to be formed and somebody will... or some group or some combination will have to get enough authority to dominate the country-- which has always been a bloody business. >> rose: but aren't there lessons to be learned from iraq? because iraq... when saddam was overthrown the army was broken up and there was chaos and... >> we absolutely have to avoid
encouraging the breakup of the existing governmental circles. >> rose: and the army? even though the army is alawites? >> but the army, hopefully, ideally would create a new government. but ideally one has an international conference, brings all the parties together. but they've been killing each other for years. and so the probable outcome is that you have a civil war that goes on for a while. >> rose: and what's the danger of that? >> the danger of that is that the terrorist cells form in regions in which there is no real governmental control so that there's no international responsibility and also the danger is that in order to overcome it, they will develop a kind of nationalism and islamism
and even countries like turkey, for example, will be very uneasy about an autonomous kurdish unit that might form in syria maybe combined with the kurdish unit that has formed in iraq. >> rose: right. >> so we are going to have... this is going to be a very difficult problem and it can't be dealt with by simply saying that democrats on one side and a dictator on the other. >> rose: okay. but do you, because of your experience, say to them all "the wisest thing to do is have all the big powers come together and guarantee some kind of something?" >> that would be by far the best outcome if the big powers could agree on something. >> rose: and should it include iran? russia, the u.s., turkey for sure, all the... jordan for sure. i mean, don't you include the bordering countries or not? >> i don't think jordan is
strong enough to guarantee anything inside syria. but russia, turkey. >> rose: u.s., russia, turkey, china or no china? >> ultimately if we could come to an understanding with iran on the nuclear issue one could include iran. but one has to see what is that agreement supposed to do? it's supposed to establish a government and it's supposed to make syria uninvolved in all the quarrels that are going on around its borders. not attempt to dominate lebanon. and so the dilemma that arises is you can do that with a strong syrian government but when you have a weak syrian government there's the danger that the various constituent elements
will reach across the borders and cannot be controlled by the central government. >> rose: if syria falls and collapses and ends up there an amazing possible combinations but iran is a loser... assuming iran is a loser and it could no longer send weapons to lebanon through syria. >> that's a set back for iran. >> and is it also a setback for hazard because it might... hezbollah because it might put an impediment between shipping weapons through hezbollah and hezbollah there have will fall? >> it depends on how nationalistic the syrian government will emerge to be. the natural tendency of syrian... of damascus is to try to control lebanon. but hezbollah as an iranian arm,
that will suffer. and that is good for the united states. >> rose: speaking of all this, what do you think is going on in israel and how they view their options? >> i think israel is torn between the turmoil in surrounding countries gives israel a breathing space and it means that immediate dangers are eased even though the syrian border was one of the quieter borders that israel had. on the other hand, when they see muslim brotherhood dominated governments at every border and one possible outcome in syria, likely outcome if the sunnis dominate the country is a muslim
brotherhood type government of course one can argue and it's possible that will the muslim brotherhood will become democratic after 30 years of having affirmed the opposite under the experience of power. but one hasn't seen the evidence for that yet. >> rose: if israel believes that either because of hud barack's concern about a zone of immunity that they're getting to a point where they know... if they don't do something they'll lose to capacity to control the development of a nuclear weapon and know israeli prime minister can allow that to happen. >> i can understand why israeli leaders would think that. and it is almost a logical thing for israeli leaders to think. but the next question is not what do you do on the day that
you attack but what is the sequence of events that starts with an israeli attack on iran? and how is that crisis going to be brought to a conclusiontor a settlement? so what does america do in the three weeks after the israelis strike. >> rose: well, first of all, what do the iranians do? and what does hezbollah do? >> well, i think the iranians would try to do some shocking thing in order to mobilize local opinion. now, the shocking thick could be a series of terror attacks. i haven't worked out in detail what the iranians will do. but certainly iranians will react in a way to mobilize global views on the subject.
and they will have to decide whether direct pressure or indirect pressure. but we will have to have an opinion on what we do afterwards. >> rose: let me go back to the arab spring and whatever it is now. the king of jordan suggested to me that it's really a... this is really driven by nationalism rather than religion. >> we'll have to see. >> rose: what do you think? i mean, i... not... it's not black and white but more nationalism than religion. do you disagree with that? >> i disagree with it. >> rose: that's what i thought. >> it was nationalism under nasser. >> rose: well, nationalism... the demonstration in iran in... in egypt at tahrir square was nationalism more than the... >> yes, but the people who demonstrated in tahrir square
have been essentially marginalized now and the dominant ring, the military who are the nasser component and the muslim brotherhood which had 75% of the vote. >> rose: and the organization, therefore, they hijacked... >> yes. and the western type secular nationalists are, what, 10%? 20%? now, is it possible that the muslim brotherhood after having affirmed its view of religiously based society and the sharia law can have that comes into office... change its view towards a more secular approach?
that's a question of... >> rose: that's an important question, isn't it? >> but i see no evidence of this. you would have to say that a the true muslim brotherhood leadership would do exactly what they're doing now. they need western help, they have to be careful that the army doesn't make a coupe and so they will... it is rational for them to behave in a manner of a government that can organize itself in a constitutional basis. but it could also become real at some point. i wouldn't paint it on one visit of a defense secretary to an egyptian president. i would not assume that his assurances would guarantee a
democratic evolution. and the next challenge is that if the evolution is purely democratic, or largely democratic, one way to rally public opinion would be on a nationalist basis. >> rose: it's not inevitable that islamist governments are going to be bad. >> not going to be bad? >> rose: yeah. >> no. >> rose: but you think... >> governments that the basis of the society must be sharia law cannot be pluralistic. >> rose: right. that would be a contradiction in terms. >> rose: but there are people who... >> i wouldn't say that's bad but that's different from the american perception. now, can we get along with
governments that are ideologically aren't our style? as you know, i've always believed that one should take into account the national interest of the countries concerned. so in some cases it is... i see no conflict of national interest between egypt and the united states that makes it impossible to get along, to have some negotiations. >> rose: the big question that overhangs this... >> but we shouldn't declare them democratic just to be able to do it. >> rose: let me refer finally to this question which has always been at the core of what you write, what you say, what you argue. this is what you said. the united states has still not answered these fundamental questions for itself: do we have a vision of what strategic equation in the region-- meaning this... the middle east-- serves
our and global interests or of the means to achieve them? how do we handle the economic assistance which may be the best and not the only means to influence the evolution. so you always come back to this point, it seems to me, that you see no broad strategic plan that's being implemented. >> and it's probably due to the fact that there is an enormous sense in the environment to which we will use. we were the dominant country for over 50 years at the end of world war ii and we could pretty well define for ourselves where we would intervene and where we would not and we could say we'll go into iraq, we'll go into afghanistan and we can change the nature. now we're in the situation where many countries are undergoing upheaval. the american public has made
clear that it will not support extended military conflicts which have no end that can be described in terms that the american people understand: so now we have to do what has been done by powerful countries before. we have to calculate what the that are evolving in that region by themselves. which of them are compatible with our values and our interests? what (inaudible) our contribution can make a difference and that's still very large. and there's no other country that has a similar range of choices and we are as a country never mind who's running for
election at any particular point but as a country whoever is in power will have to address this question and somebody soon we will have to do what we did in the period from 1945 to '55 to define the original role and important role that we can play. in that sense, the role we can play could be... would be very decisive. i'm not saying we should be... should withdraw, but i think we have to understand which issues are military, which issues are largely political, what the tendencies are within the countries. we have not had to do that in the past. >> rose: thank you. good to have you. back in a moment. stay with us.
"hope springs" is a new movie about passion and marriage and whether you have to compromise one for the other. lisa schwartz balm of "entertainment weekly" calls the movie "a study of sometimes unbearable intimacy." here's the trailer. >> happy anniversary! >> they are so beautiful! >> 31. what glift is that? silver, i.v.ly. >> oh, we got each other the new cable subscription. >> oh, great. >> a lot of channels! >> it feels like we're going towards... i want a real marriage again. >> i think for that to happen you would have to risk everything just to shake things up. >> it's not impossible. it's no too late. >> you want to go to intensive couples counseling? >> the flight leaves tomorrow. i'm going to be on it. >> i hope you're happy.
>> glad you're here. >> that makes one of us. >> you two have come here to restore intimacy to your marriage. >> this is insane. we're not 22 years old anymore. >> i would like you to spend a period of time with your arms around one another. >> i think we'd better stop. >> i'm going to ask you to take a leap of faith and try something. >> i'm looking for something. >> it's most likely way out of your comfort zone. >> i'm just not... that's not me. i just can't do that: >> you come up here, you spend one week and you're supposed to have a new marriage? >> your wife is very unhappy and you have to ask yourself "have i done all i could?" >> time to get the old magic back? >> join the club, honey. >> who in here is not having sex? >> oh! >> it's not too late for anyone who truly wants it and is willing to try. >> i wonder if he talks to his
wife like that. "mildred, i find it very interesting that you are naked." (laughter) let's get out of here early. okay, next step, what is it? write a poem? hold hands in public. sing a serenade? >> sex. >> (whispering) we should just get our things and go. ♪ keep your head up if you get your head down... ♪ >> did you have fantasies. >> a threesome. >> with? >> (whispering) carol >> carol with the corgis >> hi! you got another corgi. >> i know! but three's the limit. >> rose: joining me, david frankel, the director of the film. the film's three stars, steve carell, tommy lee jones and, of course, meryl streep i'm pleased to have all of them here at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: this is a classic script that's been around. >> yes, there's a list i gather that travels around through the
offices in hollywood and everybody knows about it. >> the blacklist. >> rose: the greatest scripts that are not produced and maybe not produceable. (laughs) because everybody agrees on... >> rose: had you seen that script before david brought it to you? >> no. >> yes. >> i had? >> yes. >> oh, okay. >> rose: how do you know? >> because she... meryl was involved in the movie way before i was. and she had... >> rose: so rather than you... >> oh, they never told me that! they told me he's going direct it and that's how they rope you in. >> there was a whole other... there was a production that... there was a team moving through production and it didn't gel and then they sent me a script and they said meryl wants to do this movie and i said yes. they said you want to know what it's about? i said no, meryl wants to do it, i'll do it. and the script was indeed spectacular and special. >> rose: that what you said, tommy lee? if meryl wants to do it, i'll do
it. >> yes, that's what i said. >> i was there when he said it. >> rose: are you serious? >> yes. >> rose: without seeing the script? you said if meryl wants to do it damn it i'll do it. >> no, i read the script. of course i did. yes, i did. particularly with the idea of meryl in mind it was irresistible. i read it before i said yes. steve needed a lot of persuading however. >> i thought everyone was doing it because i was doing it. (laughter) this is a shock to me. >> rose: that's what they told you? if you do this we can get these other people. (laughter) >> exactly. i was the bait. >> rose: well, there's a reason to think that. >> not really. (laughter) but i felt exactly the same way. i heard who was attached to... >> rose: if tommy lee niece this you want to be there. >> oh, my god! well, all of these people. again, i... i'm on the plane. i'll be there as soon as i can be there. >> rose: characterize for me or tell me who this guy is you play? who is the good psychologist
who's the marriage guru who's ostensibly in main. >> he's apparently this superstar marriage therapist. but i saw him as a very affable and low-key guy. i mean, i think he's sort of stealthy in his approach. that's... >> rose: but he seems like a guy who knows what he's doing. >> definitely. >> rose: he says it's work for some people so he can... >> he's very persistent and insistent but he's also gentle and creates a very safe environment. >> rose: so you two are out in omaha. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and things aren't perfect. >>, no but they're okay. >> rose: tell me, what's going on in your head? or body? >> well, the whole thing, you know? you just... i think she was just thinking the peggy lee song "is that all there is?" and there's a moment in your life where the years you have behind you are more than what's ahead and you want everything to
be as good as it can be and she feels lonely inside of a marriage. and very habitually patterned sort of marriage. so she wants to break the pattern. >> rose: and when she wants to break the pat whaern is your reaction? >> well, i play a character who actually likes the pattern. (laughter) one of the engineers of the pattern. he's in a day in day out routine. his life's in a rut emotions are pretty well deadened. he's abjectly dependent on his wife. he doesn't know any of these things. he thinks everything is perfectly okay. >> rose: they're sleeping in separate beds and all of that. >> yeah. it's just fine. there's nothing wrong. >> rose: he doesn't know that she's... >> he has a bad back and sleep apnea. so a lot of reasons.
>> rose: there's a lot of things wrong with this fella, he's not aware of any of it until later in the story. >> rose: and what does the good doctor do when she comes to see him and he comes to... >> he tries to peel away the layers of the artichoke, i think. because that's what their marriage is at this point. there are many, many layers of disconnects between them. and i really... i think he approaches it not to solve their problems but to get them to sort of witness each other and to start to make connections. >> rose: because in the end he doesn't know whether they'll stay together or not. >> no, but he thinks they have the potential to stay together. and says as much. >> rose: swhaez? >> he says that... >> rose: this is a chance for a new beginning? >> he says he sees people who come in who shouldn't have been married in the first place but he believes these two should have been and the rest is up to them. >> rose: these are people whose children have left the nest. >> yes. >> rose: but it's a movie for any age. >> i hope!
>> rose: you think so? >> yes, i think it's a movie for any age. and let's not forget it's funny. >> rose: you see that in the script. clearly funny and the characters are funny. the dialogue is noneny. >> normal people with normal problems. >> rose: and a screenwriter. (laughs) >> it's a relief to laugh at them, real life. >> rose: to laugh at the pain of real life when these feelings are deep. >> yes. >> but the feeling of not having any sex or not having enough sex is universal who thinks they're having enough snex. >> that's a discussion that's just, like, so different. >> of course. >> because... if my team were here... >> rose: your team meaning your family? >> girls. women. it's not necessarily sex, it's what sex holds from you and brings you to and makes you... it's connectedness, intimacy,
being known, being seen, being felt. >>. >> rose: being wanted. >> yes! the whole thing! yes, you can reduce it. >> rose: but to answer your question... (laughter) >> that's it, meryl. (laughter) >> rose: but there's a point... >> she actually does that correction in the movie. her character says "it's not just sex, i wanted you. i was in love." and that is absolutely what kay wants. but i think that's why it can be universal because everybody wants that. teenagers want to be connected in the same pain of not connecting never goes away. >> rose: what is this guy who likes things as they are go through, tommy lee? >> hell. (laughter) >> yeah, hell. he has to face himself and faces life and it is, it's very funny. >> rose: this experience convinces him there is something
worth doing here. there's something worth... not only fighting for your wife and your marriage but there is an idea, an experience that's worth it. >> rose: >> i believe he wakes up to that when he understands that it could all be over. >> rose: that's the moment. >> it's a wakeup call for just about anybody. i mean, it's a movie for everybody. nobody's immune to any of these issues. >> rose: don't you think that's the genius of it? it's about having passion for life. finding what makes you be excited about the future, as you say in one point. you want to have something... >> you want to feel alive. you want to feel the day. the feeling of being in love and when it first happens to you and how connected you are to every
moment, to every sense, to every piece of music. you just... you're more hyperaware and over time people settle for naught... >> rose: life gets... >> yeah, and then something i think in kay's life something makes her think, no, i just... puts her foot down. >> rose: there's a good line in which she basically says "i've always had something i was looking forward to." >> yeah. >> rose: "and i no longer have that and i'm going to have that." >> yeah, that's it. >> rose: that's it. >> that's it. >> rose: all relationships, he says, goo go through phases. you say phases, he says seasons. >> uh-huh. >> how does that make you feel, charlie? (laughter) >> rose: i like golf and i'm watching the golf channel, what the hell's wrong with that? (laughter) >> it's so easy to snap into
that world. >> rose: (laughs) when your wife asks you a question at home... you've been married 19 years, i think. >> 17 years. yesterday. >> rose: yesterday. so you'll explain something from now on. how does that make you feel? >> i explain everything to my wife. since i played this part. (laughs) i we are that as my... >> rose: does she expect you to be all-knowing about relationships? >> she knows way better than that. >> rose: she knows this was a movie. >> clearly a character i am playing. people act like... >> rose: but it can help you get wiser and smarter. >> you would hope, sure. you would hope that would be the case. like what have you learned? are you better at... no! i think you can glean things from the movie, clearly. and i think the movie has an awful lot to say and you watch the trailer and it seems kind of fun and frothy. but there are so... and it is. it's really funny but there are so many levels beyond that that i think people will be surprised
by. >> rose: like? >> well, like everything you've been talking about. like the depth of... and the schism between two people. and the missteps that happened. i think that way it's very relateable to everyone of every age because you can take missteps all the way through your life that create... can create a separation and you don't know when they're happening necessarily but they can build up and then you have to unravel them eventually. >> rose: what's interesting-- and when you look at the profiles of each of you-- this is as exciting a time inform n your life as it could be. >> thank you. >> rose: you say, that actually. as you are holder you appreciate how much time you have to squeeze all the things you want in. >> yeah, that's absolutely true. we're very pulled, i think, in modern life. i think in the early audiences that's why there's been such a good response to this as we move
laterally out... i'm trying not to show my cut hand. >> rose: now that you've done that, explain it. >>, no i just chopped my finger off. >> rose: julia child can't cook? >> backwards... dan ackroyd version. (laughter) >> (as dan ackroyd as julia child) oh, dear! i'm making a very important point sflfrnlt but we have so many more opportunities to connect with people and yet to connect deeply and vertically and all the layers of things that take time and focus and shutting off everything, the t.v. and this and... >> rose: there's so many distractions. more than ever so you have to remember. >> and in our business we think of it as there's so much competition for eyeballs but really there's so much
competition for your soul. where do you connect? where do you put your feeling and your love and your need and your yearning and all that? it isn't satisfied no matter how far you go in that wide network. you have to go deep for it. >> rose: so here you have the cast you love. a script that you love. >> yes. >> rose: what was the challenge for you >> the challenge is not to screw it up. (laughter) and i think that's the thing i'm most proud of is that we had this opportunity and it turned out the way we hoped and that's so rare. >> it's rare, yes. >> that's the magic of these three and a great script and a lot of luck along the way. >> rose: is there something to the idea that this kind of film is suggesting that there is an audience for the kind of films that are beyond the sort of craziness of action adventure to its limit? >> i've always hoped that's the
case. meryl and i had that experience, we made "the devil wears prada." a brilliant script and great cast led by meryl and nobody dies, nobody blows up, nothing flies. >> rose: a lot of humor. >> a lot of shoes. >> there's real heart. >> rose: will get it every time. put a lot of shoes in there and you've got a movie. >> but what meryl is saying is the emotion that it connects. >> woody allen knew this very early on. he was the first one to counter... what they call counterprogram. everybody wants a formula for success and it used to be summer was the tent pole stuff and he put movies in august for grown-ups and he did very well. >> rose: yeah, the timing of the release is meryl's idea. she said a lot of movies that open in august have reached an audience that really appreciates something else. >> i'm just opinionated and i'm
telling them don't put the movie out at christmas because women are busy at christmas. in august it's the moment. >> rose: i agree. here's a clip in which kay and arnold finally talk about the first time arnold said "i love you." >> this is just exactly... the launch? >> completely different. that place reminds me of when we drove down to see your mother before we were married. that was the first time you said it. first time you said you loved me in that little motel. before you said it well i didn't want to be the one who said it first but i just... i had to say it. every time we talked on the phone i would say it to the phone after we hung up! (laughs) >> i figured if i said anything like that you'd take off running. >> what?
>> you could have had your pick. i didn't think you'd ever want me. >> i never wanted anything more. >> rose: here's what texas mussly said. >> uh-oh. (laughter) >> rose: a magazine you know and love "hope springs is entirely new terrain for jones who combines hard and soft, regret and hope, sexual anxiety and moon beam tenderness and whose face by the end looks more relaxed than it has in years, proof that sometimes just when you think you have a great actor all figured out he'll turn around and do something even better." >> oh, cool. >> that's right! >> rose: don't you agree with that? that's exactly what this is. >> well, good. >> rose: only come on! you like that. i mean... >> i like hearing talk like that yeah. (laughter) >> rose: but it's earned, exactly right, meryl, thank you very much. you do show us a side we had not
necessarily seen a character like this. >> there's very few actors who would be brave enough to expose themselves emotionally that way. and come out cowering at the same time. it's great. >> rose: people are going to fall in love with them at the end, aren't say in >> he was so worried they would think he was so grumpy and mean and mean to her. i told you, the meaner you are, the jackie gleason thing. (laughter) >> rose: finish your sentence. (laughter) >> they're gonna love you! >> rose: the meaner you are... >> they're going to love him. >> rose: yeah. see i was worried that... i didn't know where it was going to go. >> thank you! yes. >> rose: i do not know whether they were going to make it or not. >> when i read the screenplay i read it like a thriller. >> rose: in the end he tries but you don't know whether it's
going to work or not. she may be too far out there. am i right doctor,? >> it's true. i don't even know. (laughter) >> rose: and year career is... >> mine's on the line. >> rose: if you can't save this marriage it's over for you. >> hanging it up. (laughter) hanging up any knit tie. >> rose: tell me about working with these two. that's what you said you wanted to do >> it was okay. (laughter) >> rose: it wasn't what you expected at all, is it? they're way overblown. >> here's the thing. you have your expectations of people and then they are exceeded. it's beyond anything victim hoped for. it was... i mean, we would come in and the first day of shooting we shot... we were talking about this the other day. we shot on digital so the takes could be much, much longer than they could be with a conventional film magazine. so we could do these long... i mean, they were probably eight, ten, 12-minute takes, uncut and we're essentially doing a
one-act play and i... it was heaven to be able to do that with such great actors. so exciting. >> rose: so this is one of those movies in which everybody had a good time. >> and david was shut out of the thing. he was behind the office, we couldn't even feel if we were doing it wrong or anything. we could only... >> there was really no director. (laughter) >> in other words... >> rose: >> they don't need a director. >> rose: was he different? it's a side of him you haven't seen either. an essentially comic but straight actor here. >> here's the thing, i don't... i see people's work and i think you see the whole person. on "the office" i thought your work was amazing and funny. it's so rooted in something very very real and very painful and
he's tender as an actor. he's the people so there's... i mean, you feel like... >> rose: as soon as you see him with these characters. >> yeah. >> rose: this is a scene in which you're in. this is dr. phil tells kay and arnold that they're ready for the next step. >> and then we did the exercise. and... >> yeah, that was... >> we woke up. >> yeah. >> and we were in the same bed. >> yeah it was... >> ...comfortable. >> this is good. really good. by taking some time for yourselves you were able to relate better as a couple and you both did it without even trying. >> but, you know, it was nice. wasn't it? >> do something on your own, you know. >> i'm thrilled with the progress you've made and i think it's going to make it that much easier to proceed to the next step. >> next step. let's get with it. we're doing so well we might be able to get out of here early. okay, next step, what is it? write a poem, hold hands in public? sing a serenade?
>> sex. >> (whispering) we should just get our things and go. >> rose: when you saw that, tommy lee, what were you thinking? >> when i saw it? i was saying it looks like it almost probably might work. >> rose: in the marriage or the movie? >> i'm talking about the scene. it's funny. but it's funny in a way that real life is laughable when you can discover that you're well on your way to being successful at comedy. >> rose: that right, steve? >> i don't know. >> don't ask him! >> comedy rules. >> never talk about comedy. >> rose: >> as soon as you deconstruct it it's like... sxwh >> steve brought this up and meryl brought it up. because of their impeccable timing the movie is full of the actual pauses of counseling, of life. where you don't have an answer right away or the doctor doesn't
have a solution right away. and some of the biggest laughs in the movie are the silences and the pauses. >> rose: a good portion of this movie you were thinking... this guy is just trying to make money. what's going on here other than making money. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and when does he realize when he think he is might lose her he says i don't give a damn, i'm going to save my woman. my relationship. >> well, when he learns that the... that there is a chance that everything that's meant security to him in the past is perishable. that's what he struggles to save it. when he learns that it's... he could lose everything that's when he tries to save it. do you think most of us men... >> our team. >> now you're asking the right person. (laughter)
>> well, i think ostensibly... >> you know, i think men, boys, are less interested from an early naj this subject and i think girls are just, like, obsessed with it early on. speaking as the mother of girls. >> rose: obsessed with... >> relationships. >> intimacy. >> yes, taking the temperature of the relationship. am i happy? is he happy? what is he thinking? what does he want to eat? what should we see at the movies? they always say women decide what movies we see and on the basis of that they decide that lots of movies are bankable but women decide yes which movies to see but they decide based on what they think he'll like and i know that's true with many of my friends and myself. you make a negotiation. >> rose: but we don't get it for as much as we should. >> it's just where you choose to
put your attention, you know? >> rose: in the movie, arnold says "of course i want it." (laughter) "it" being sex and whatever that is defined as. "of course i want it." and you're saying "but it's more than it." >> it's the whole thing. i mean, we read magazines and every women's magazine it's sorts of articles about how to keep your relationship interesting. the magazines are not quite as fixed on this question. >> rose: has don talked to you about this movie? >> don saw the movie and roared all through it. yeah, he really liked it. >> rose: and he got it? >> he got it. especially golf stuff.
(laughter) >> rose: what's wrong with the golf stuff? (laughter) sfpl he'd rather do something else, sgligt right. >> rose: this is something you said you'd tell your kids. "to believe boring are bored." >> yeah, i said that to them. >> rose: you believe that. >> i do, i believe that. >> rose: i mean, if you're bored you're a boring person because there's so much out there. >> if you're bored i am, too. newspapers this what you said "if you're bored with somebody it's because you're bored with yourself." >> yeah, yeah. i mean my... yes. >> rose: you also said never before... this is the best time in your life in terms of an appreciation of life and all the things we've been talking about and >> and how precious every second is and how precious people are and... >> rose: congratulations to you. >> thank you.
>> rose: great to have you here. good to see you. >> good to see you. >> tommy lee. >> thank you, sir. >> rose: thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> rose: i'm going to leave you with one last thought coming from my friend and meryl's great friend talking about marriage. this is from nora ephron in a conversation here. the movie is called "hope springs" the movie we've been talking about, in theaters wednesday august 8. on the subject of marriage, or in what was wise about many things and here's what she said about marriage. >> there's so many overlapping thems. i mean, this is really about love. it's really about marriage. it's really about a kind of marriage that actually exists thank god it does or people would have accused me of making this up but there are guys who really do take enormous pleasure in their wives' growth and change and all of those things
so that was one of the things i loved it was about. i loved realizing halfway through i was writing a movie about marriage and how rare it is that you get to do this kind of marriage because movies require plot but a marriage, a good marriage requires the absence of plot. >> rose: pretty good, huh, meryl? >> pretty good. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.
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