toyota has three or four dealers in a major metropolitan market and they grossly outperform us. and no other dealer is prepared to step in and make an investment in the major metropolitan market because they say there's too many dealers. there is no way i'm going justify putting capital into a general motors franchise, we'll put it into a toyota franchise. that's what's been our history and that's not a method over time we can operate in. because in the end, there are a whole host of issues. we have very good market position in world markets. i fully understand that we may have made some mistakes. but the lion's share of the sales in the united states are in major metro markets there we grossly underperform and in part because our dealer system is not properly structured. >> thanks. >> thank you, senator. senator mccaskill. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think mr. press, one thing we discovered today is that there is -- has been a significant breakdown in communication as it relates to your plans to relieve these dealers of their cars and replace them with the dealers going forwa

press first. >> the reason and toyota's case they sell 2 million cars at a 1200 doo there's and if we did not have the restructuring we would sell about 700,000 retail out of 30100 dealers. average sales per dealer is substantially different. as and toyota case the product line is less truck oriented and more mature market or sunshine states in a bus presents in the rural areas are secondary markets and also don't have the 80 year legacy of having a substantially higher dealer body to see the volume disappear. >> mr. henderson? >> i don't have anything to add. >> gentlemen do believe your respective numbers of dealerships has been reduced for your restructuring plans and sfo has parity been achieved through these plants and a way which will be adequate with regard to our foreign transplant competitors? >> we tried to achieve a dealer network going forward to have a minimal impact on removing dealers there have been critics that say we did not go far enough, we did not want to go all the way to have parity but we are in a good position to go forward and have the dealer network emerge o

the problem is when you look at toyota, volkswagen, honda, you find companies that are not levered. so i think you are driven to equity by the decision to try to maximize the return, have a successful company. as far as the exit, it's going to be orderly. it's going to take it in -- it's going to take advantage of a profitable company in our capital marketplace. >> what's it going today, i know you don't know how many years the government will be in. you don't know exactly whether or not there will be more money. in other words, gm and chrysler, things don't work out quite as you may be thought they would, and they need more money. and you go back to the whale, what will it take to get them on their feet and a moneyback? it will have to be a pretty rosy scenario. >> no, sir. , i really don't think it is. i want to emphasize that. >> what kind of scenario do you think? >> we believe that using a conservative set of assumptions about market share, about overall market, about margins, about costs, about all the things that would go in, we are strongly believe that this is the last mone

you that as little as three or four or five years ago, gm's quality by a lot of measures was up at toyota's, up at anybody. the problem is as you know, consumer sentiment lags reality because for a long time, when the transplant cars were better, gm was living on reputation, then it flips. so these are problems that are not addressed overnight. and i think that -- and so you're right, this is going to take some time to evolve. the government is not going to insist that general motors make good cars. that's not something a government can insist. what we can do and i believe what we have done is help the company to rethink its business model and to restructure its balance sheet. so i think -- >> let me just quickly because i don't want to take too much more time, but isn't the government going to focus on north america and -- >> let me -- let me answer that question. i don't think it's accurate to say we're castrating general motors overseas. i would just observe to you for instance that their european operation in fact is also deeply troubled and provisions are being made without united stat

and as wine every other aspect of the retail business from harley-davidson to apple stores and, yes, toyota and honda you see that a premium is placed on crating the distinct consistent and top-notch retail experience. that's why we're building a profitable business plan for between 3500 and 3800 u.s. dealers by the end of 2010 which was a retail sales market over 10 million units and conservative share assumption would allow our dealers to approximately double the throughput. for dealers this is a greater return on investment, better profits and ability to attract and retain new customers and the best people to serve as vehicles. finally even with the cutbacks and gm will have a large network in the country more than any of our competitors and in our case around 3600 verses, for example toyota at 1200 and this would include an extensive oral network of 1500 dealers nationally in markets where we hold today on average more than 10 points and manage and market share. while we're operating with a high sense of urgency is equally important and get the process right considering the personal and

toyota and honda and floyd thousands of americans. we are not just talking about cars made in japan or elsewhere being imported. these are people building large factories and some of them are rapidly expanding manufacturing employers and the u.s.. host: greg on the democrats' line. caller: of the only thing i'm worried about -- is there any danger of people taking advantage of this government program and turning it all into a wash? and i would also like to ask you, how long does it take in the morning to cut your own hair? " scott why don't you take the first part? guest: there is always a risk of people taking a vintage of government programs. we will have to see how this is implemented -- host: you say it is a billion dollars, and the timeframe, a limited amount of money. guest: depending on the success of this first go round, there will be renewed effort of congress come the fall to read up it and perhaps change the standards and change out works, but i think there's a lot of support. host: fla., sam, good morning. caller: good mor

biggest, most extensive dealer network in the country, more than any of our competitors, including toyota, honda, nissan, ford and chrysler. to conclude, this is one of the most difficult and painful times in gm's history. but we see a path to a better future, where gm -- where at gm we not only survive but thrive. we want our employees, communities and especially our dealers to thrive with us. we are grateful for your support during this critical time. we understand our responsibility to the american taxpayer and we take that very seriously. a new gm will contribute to america's economic strength and competitiveness and this, of course, starts and ends with great cars and trucks and great dealers. thank you very much. >> thank you, sir. finally, mr. john mceleney, chairman of the national automobile dealers association. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, senator hutchison, i am chairman of nada and the national automobile dealers association. i am also an automobile dealer. my dealership is mcelenen center in clinton, ohio. we have actually been in business 95 years. we provide jo

i know that toyota has a proposed plant in mississippi. and michigan and ohio are stepping up to look at suppliers. and looking at new technology and innovation and battery technology. there is an announcement that g.m. will build battery facility with conjunction with korea firm. and states do have a role to play. and they also have a role to play in working with the industry on some infrastructure issues. california has always been interested in hydrogen. again another leading-edge technology, that requires infrastructure and support. and they is to provide incentives, just not mandates. although we ask for clarity of the rules, but we have to be careful not to see cascading the rules because it's an easy way out. we need the fuel and consumers and technology. host: one more caller, john. caller: i was wondering with the gas prices going back up that started the recession. and with g.m. talking about a brand of the saturn? guest: one of the core brands is the largest seller in china. and china will surpass the u.s. in total sales. so the

the remainder of what was left, ford and toyota -- in terms of this credit crisis, some have gone chapter 7 instead of chapter 11. that could cause a stumbling block to ramping up on production. what is your sense of the anecdotal versus the reality of that? what do you think happened to this supply chain? >> i think it is too early to know precisely what the effect of the current policy has been. it is been a real challenge to get through the financing issues versus the structural issues facing the industry, how the networks are used by each of the companies in the chain. there has been the feeling from years before that the supply chain was a bit larger than needed for the sales and production base they were looking at. it is going to be smaller for sure. throughout this entire economic and financial time of this progress, we a been thinking about spillover -- time of distress, we have beenabout spillover effects. -- we have been thinking about a spillover effect. -- effects. we have been looking at things in a transitory fashion. >> this goes back to the national forum. ben bernanke re

and toyota. and there is the evidence that the supply chain, this went chapter 11 during the course of the credit problems in the fall that could cause a stumbling block, with possible inflationary pressures. what do you say about the reality of that, was this the bailout with what everything -- with everything that was going on. i was wondering what you thought happened to the supply chain. one issue of the major 1980's was a major destruction of the distortions. >> it is unclear what the effect of the current policies have been. this is a real challenge to go through the financing issues, the issues facing the industry, of the supplier network. what is used by each of the companies, in the chain. and the feeling from years before, that the chain was a bit larger, this was needed for the sales in the production base. going through what needed to take place in the absence of this, on top of the financing difficulties. this will be smaller. throughout the entire time of distress, we have been thin

it's clear in many respects toyota has become the model and standard for a number of things. and their dealer network is one that both g.m. and ford and also chrysler and other companies are looking at the kind of service they want to provide. host: you have an organization with all auto manufacturers, domestic and foreign. when you look down the road of the future, what automobile sales and not only models but what is happy -- what is ahead for the american buying public? >> a great industry, what we see today is historic low. with the credit crunch and the recession in this session. it hit the auto manufacturers hard. and in home prices over the years, had an impact over the auto industry, that's the biggest purchase that people make. the sales fell to what is now 9.5. i think we is seen the bottom and i think it's bouncing back. and all the companies have gone through this. they are looking at reinventing the automobile, and providing a lot of new technology. you will see a technology revolution occur. not just in electrication and hybrids but in diesel and other engines t

the reasons why ford -- many have hailed ford because they have not needed assistance, but ford like toyota says that if you let chrysler or gm old and a supplier. way, we will not have the parts to build our cars. so, this issue has a big impact on michigan. it is critical for them to be able to stay alive. host: we're talking about the automobile industry with michigan republican fred upton. we will take calls shortly. let's talk a little about the cultures of these companies. many people do not associate the kind of cars made by chrysler with the smaller, european models. will there be a fundamental shift in how americans view cars? guest: there has to be. they have signed off on increasing mileage requirements by 2016 and the average will be 35 miles per gallon. that means you have a smaller car. there is no choice but to do that. you will see that retooling. gm is looking at a new car, b and c models, one is literally 8 meters long. it is a lot like the smart cars at uc around. they will have to make that transition. it is the only way to hit that target. -- like the smart cars that yo

products and many gm products with the confidence that they will have quality and durability of a honda or toyota. they may not be as fashionable these days for young people, but they work and they were very well. host: new york times magazine cover story, gm, detroit, and the fall of the middle class. that's in ruche, republican line. caller: sense when it is the the government supposed to take care of every social need? originally the government was set up for military and infrastructure. host: what is the limit? caller: government -- military and infrastructure. i am not going to work a second or third job so other people can be provided for. my utilities, we suffer here in the south, you can be a little bit warmer. well he doesn't live in the south. guest: the fact is that the american people elected barack obama to be president, and they knew he was going to do these kinds of things. they did it because they were disgusted with george bush. i don't think they give consideration to a couple of factors. one was that he was advocating a very liberal program from the u.s. economy. he let us down

toyota 39% reduction. ford down. chrysler, honda, all across the board, these sales are down. i can tell you, mr. president, this is an emergency for families and small businesses. for an industry that has been the backbone of our economy for a generation. up to 3 million people working for this industry. it is worth our time to put into this bill less than 1% of the emergency bill that is in front of us. every other country with an automobile presence has done something to help their industry. when they put another plan in place, they raise sales 21%. we have seen similar plants in china, japan, korea, brazil, great britain, spain, france, italy, austria, portugal, romania, and slovakia, mr. president. slovakia. but the united states has not yet acted on a program that has been effective around the world when we have some many small businesses right now whose futures are hanging in the balance. this is something supported by business and labor. and of course, the auto dealers. i am also pleased that it is now supported by the sierra club. we know that from environmental stand

to get home from work in the evening, the market does allow me a choice between, say, a ford and a toyota but it doesn't allow me a choice between a car and a subway, which would be much more inefficient and maybe everybody wants it but the market doesn't allow that choice. that's a social decision. and a in a democratic society it would be the organization of an organized public. but that's just what the elite attack on democracy seeks to undermine. now, these consequences are right before our eyes in ways that are sometimes surreal. a couple of weeks ago "the wall street journal" had an article reporting that the u.s. transportation chief is in spain. is meeting with high speed rail suppliers. europe's engineering and rail companies are lining up for some potentially lucrative u.s. contracts for high speed rail projects. that stake is $13 million that the obama administration is allocating to upgrading existing rail lines and would build new ones that would one day rival europe's. so think what's happening. spain and other european countries are hoping to get u.s. taxpayer-funding for h

[laughter] bible that toyota will continue to do well even against that. thank you [applause] >> we actually have the example of the public alternative. we have the government run mail service, the post office and in order not to have competition there is a cause for been to do that. we know how the government reacts to competition to the u.s. postal service. we're joined by greg scandlen from consumers were healthcare choice is. >> of talk about mandatory coverage and i suppose i should start off by confessing i have violated the law on the way here today the district of columbia has mandated that no one use a cell phone while driving within the district and i confess somebody did call me and i was continuing to drive even before i got to washington d.c. i was violating the 55-mile per hour speed limit with about 10,000 other people so the point* is that mandates simply don't work. [laughter] they talk about the main gate auto insurance coverage but about 15% of all drivers to not have autumn insurance coverage although it is mandated in 47 states and tha

general motors's key competitors, companies like toyota and volkswagen's have minimal levels of debt, approximately equal to the amount of cash on the balance sheet or one year profit. we were very mindful of general motors, a competitive balance sheet, that is one of the competitive weapons in the marketplace. if we were not going to burden the company with debt, the only remaining security would be equity. and we did not want to give this money away, this is the taxpayers' hard-earned money. the determination was to take equity. in terms of the size of the stake and how that was determined, that was determined in feelings with other stakeholders to the company also wanted to the owners. that included bondholders where we had a vigorous debate and on behalf of retiree trusts. they wanted more equity than we wanted to give them. on behalf of the taxpayer the objective should be to get as much as you can to get as much value as you can out of the enterprise. it was really determined through negotiation. the other shareholder is the canadian government who is making a sizable investment

be more profitable in the future by doing that because i understand you've got more dealerships than toyota, honda, others that maybe built their dealership network at a later date than what you did, but by downsizing that radically, does it upscale your ability to be profitable? if it really doesn't cost you that much i would really like to understand those numbers on a better basis. the second is you're operating off of one of the most difficult car markets we've had in 50 years. you're locking at 9.6 million in annual sales right now. i think mr. henderson, and thank you for coming by my offers $10.1 million was the latest monthly figure you said you were running at but a normal year would be $14 million, $15 million in colleagues -- in sales. but my colleagues have increased sales of automobiles anywhere from 10%-30% in months period of time. so if you get back anywhere close to a normal car sales market, do you need this sort of scruveraging down of dealerships if you get back somewhere close to norm until this is an extraordinary situation we're in. if we don't further with the scrapa

and those who want the autoworkers and ford, chrysler and gm salaries comparable to nissan and toyota, they don't look at what the salaries of those ceos at nissan and 20 ruda are making. their salaries are not in line with the salaries of the american auto industry executives in this country. they are not. and nobody that i have heard -- mabey av weeks i haven't heard -- i confess nobody has indicated in any way that we need to make sure that the salaries of the auto executives in this country are in line with although executives and other countries. it's just not being made. now at some point we have just got to fess up and say we've got business to take care of and take care of the business that we must take care of. if we don't do this, this is our our work, this is our moment, our time to do what's right. not to try to manage this. not to try to make sure we do this thing right but do the right thing. that's what we've got to try to do here. so i am not for taking control of the company. i don't want to see stockholders, micromanage a company. i'm not interested in that. but i co

.- based wages down to levels comparable to the transplants, toyota and other companies. that agreement was actually accelerated and i think they came to the table again. i think all the stakeholders have to come to the table. dealers, which we have seen recently debated, who are strong political force, unions, and bondholders. i don't know -- the bondholders i know have held out and at the end, with general motors, they got an improved position than they had going into the discussions. but the administration, looking at the options and choices, with nearly 10 percent unemployment in the united states. again, the largest manufacturing sector left in the united states. it was going through a major restructuring and reinventing when the financial crunch hit and it was the financial system that led to the recession, not the manufacturers. so they were caught there. will they survive? only time will tell. but i think that u.s. models are world class today, both in quality and performance. no one will let 50 percent of the u.s. market the way general motors had back in the '50

., 41.8%, toyota 39% reduction, ford down, chrysler, honda, all across the board these sales are down. this may not seem like an emergency to people here, but i can tell you, mr. president, this is an emergency for families and small businesses, for an industry that has been the backbone of our economy for a generation, up to three million people working for this industry. this, in fact, is an emergency and worth our time to put into this bill as less than 1% -- less than 1% of the emergency bill that's in front of us. every other country with an automobile presence has, in fact, done something to help their industry. germany found that in the first month, in january, when they put a similar kind of incentive plan in place, they raised sales 21%. 21% at the same time our sales were falling 40%. we've seen similar plans in china, japan, korea, brazil, great britain, spain, france, italy, austria, portugal, romania, and slo slovokia, mr. president. slovokia. but the united states has not yet acted on a program that has been effective around the world when we have so many small businesse

aware of is that foreign automakers are huge employers especially in states like alabama and missouri, toyota, honda etc employee americans so we are not just talking about cars made in japan or elsewhere and imported in the u.s.. these people are built in large factories and in the rapidly expanding employers of the u.s.. >> host: michigan, up next for corey boles on the democrats' line. >> caller: yes, i am worried about -- i know that human nature, people to get advantage of the situation. is there any danger people taking advantage of the government program and also i would like to ask you, corey, how long does it take in the morning to cut your own hair? >> guest: there's always an advantage, people taking the risk of government programs. there's a lot of waste of their. that is one way to see -- >> host: and there's a billion dollars that is a limited time frame, a limited amount money that is >> guest: depending on the success of the go or not there will be the renewed coming to perhaps change the standard, change hauer it works but the basic principle i think is support out there. >>

it is clear though that in many respects toyota has become somewhat the model and the standard for a number of things and i think their dealer network is one that both gm and ford and also chrysler and other companies are looking at as to the kind of service that they want to provide. host: you have an organization that has with that all the major automobile manufacturers, domestic and foreign. when you look down the road to the future, what automobile sales look like, not only models but with the sea as a head for the american car buying public? >> guest: a lot of great choices actually. this is the most competitive industry in the country. one out of ten jobs in america. what we see today that is a historic low. with the credit crunch in the financial crisis that occurred in this recession, it hit the auto sector particularly hard. when you have home prices did valued as much as they have over the last two years, that had an impact on the auto sector because that is the second largest purchase of an american makes. sales dropped from an historic high of 17 or 60 million units a yea

i came from toyota for 37 years, and i think everybody understands the difficulties that our company has had with regard to integrity a product, quality and appeal. and asking why that is, it isn't because people don't want to build good cars and trucks. there are insufficient resources available to do the engineering and develop necessary to build winning formula vehicles. in our case it isn't just wheel covers and grills. at about 250 to three going dollars per sister vehicle. and that investment doesn't return any incremental sales and it requires that we advertised the two cars against each other, and it's one of the most important reasons why the company went bankrupt is that we kept taking this problem down the road instead of addressing it, which is what we get. >> my time is up and i'm sure -- but that's your decision. the dealers, even the dealers who survived, it's not their problem that we have a sister vehicle as you call. that's really chryslers problem and the new chrysler has to address the. to drop one like you did on my oldsmobile. drop on. >> we did it and that save

toyota, down 41% from last may. honda, 42%. nissan, 43%. so there is an effort to make sure there is effective restructuring for the domestic industry. we have to work on the demand side. and this, today, answers that need. a voucher for consumers worth $3,500 to $4500 to pay for fuel-efficient cars and trucks. it will incentivize one million car and truck purchases. anyone who votes no on this supplemental is voting no on this provision. and that would be a serious mistake. it is critical that this nation retain a strong domestic auto industry. and this effort on the demand side is a critical piece of that effort. i ask for an additional minute. mr. arcuri: i yield to the gentleman an additional minute. mr. levin: this is not an easy effort and there have been different ways to go about it. and i simply want to say to those who have been in the lead and especially to representative sutton, this would not have happened without the dedication of herself and others who have been determined that there be continued in this country a strong dome

not only the big three supports this but toyota, honda, the chamber, a whole number of different groups, the u.a.w., the auto manufacturers, the national association of manufacturers, the auto dealers as well. you know what this bill is? it's a jobs bill. but more important than that, it's an american jobs bill and it's time to stop the dominos from falling the wrong way and beginning to turn the switch from red to green for auto jobs and get something in the hands

general motors' key competitors, toyota and volkswagen have very minimal levels of debt. debt approximately equal to the amount of cash they have on the balance sheet or to one year's profit. so we were very mindful of trying to set up general motors to have a competitive balance sheet because that is one of the competitive weapons in the marketplace. and so that really left us, if we were not going to overmurder the company with debt, then the only remaining security we could have would be equity. we didn't want to give the money away, it was the taxpayers' hardworking money. so our determination was to take equity. the size of the stax, that was determined in arm lengths dealings with other key stakeholders who wanted to also be owners. that included the bondholders where we had a vigorous debate and the uaw on behalf of the retiree trust. they obviously wanted more equity than we wanted to give them. we wanted to give themless because on behalf of the taxpayer the objective to be@@ the other equity shareholder in journal motors is the canadian government, but in that c

toyota supported this, honda, mazda, and a number of other countries. you still maintain the right you have to drive whenever vehicle you want, whether it is a use for a new car. you are right on when you talk about coal and oil from tar sands and that kind of thing. i'm a big supporter of all of the above. we need to do it all. in my district in michigan this past week and gas went up to $2.95 and when i go back i guess it will be a little bit higher as the summer season continues. we are importing most of the oil we consume, better than 70%, in fact. that price is driven by opec and what is the world wide price. the more we can do for all of the above to develop domestic sources of energy -- whether it is oil shale out west, tar sands, and obviously electric cars, anything we can do to reduce the dependence on foreign oil, we are better off. electricity is just one of the options we ought to be able to pursue. one of the reasons why electricity generation in this country is going to go up by 30% to 20% by 2013, we have to be prepared for that, which i

be moreç profitable in theç future by doing that becaue i understand you got more dealerships than toyota, honda and others that may be built in america later date and what you.com but by downsizing that radically do you substantially of skill your ability to be profitable, if you're not work really doesn't cost that much. i to understand the numbers on a better basis. theç second piece is you're operating off of one of the most difficult, is we have had in 50 years and you're looking at 9.6 million in annual sales are now.ç i think you said that 10.1 million was the latest monthly figure you're running ads but a normal year would be a fourteener 15 million and wasting car sales and my colleagues are putting up a scrap its bill of that and other countries when they put this foreign have increased sales of automobiles anywhere from 10 to 30% in months' time so if you get back anywhere close to a normal car salesç markets do yu need this sort of spending down of dealerships and to get back summer clothes, this is an extraordinary situation we're in in a free help for the with the stop

they are located between toyota and nissan on the road near the mall of america, 150,000 cars a day. one of the most profitable dealers in minnesota. yet this is one, they're appealing, that has been decided to be closed down. i just want to have you remember that image in your mind. my second question really is of you, mr. press. you don't have any kind of appeals process. is there any way you can institute an appeals process? at chrysler? >> our case may be different. i'm not familiar with general motors. what we've done is created a new company that will be formed at the end of this process and the dealers that will be in that new company have been identified from all of the dealers that were with the old company. in regards to that, we have a limited period of time from when the bankruptcy was filed to when the new company has to be finalized. if we do not have a finalized dealer organization, the new company will not be formed and the company will have to liquidate. we also, in terms of the process, the strategic market representation actions, the consolidation of single brands,

and i will bet that toyota will continue to do well even against that. thank you. [applause] >> we actually have the example of the public alternative in the mail. we have a government-run mail service, the post office. and in order not to have competition underbid them, they have the pass the quotes. so we know how the government reacts to competition to the u.s. postal service. we're now joined by the director of consumers for health care choices. greg? >> thank you, grover, i appreciate it. i'm going to talk about mandatory coverage. i suppose i should start out by confessing that i violated the law on the way here today. the district of columbia has mandated that no one use a cell phone while driving within the district. and i confuse, someone did call me and i did accept it. and i was continuing to drive. in fact, even before i got to d.c., i was violating another mandate, the 55 marn speed limit along 270 with about 10,000 other people. so the point is that mandates simply don't work. they often talk about -- well, we mandate auto ininsurance coverage, don't

undermine the entire manufacturing sector, caterpillar, non-auto sectors soar of what was left, ford and toyota in. terms of this credit crisis there's anecdotal evidence that a lot of companies in the supply chain went chapter 7 and chapter 11 during the course of the credit seizure in the fall that could cause a stumbling block to getting ramping up on production and perhaps more inflationary pressures. what's your sense of the anecdotal versus the reality of that? was the bailout of the auto industry or the one that's going on going to stop that from happening? i won't ask if you think it's necessary or not. that's too political to put you in the spot of. that but i just wonder what you thought happened to the supply chain. one of the big issues of the early 190's was the major -- 1980's was major destruction of distortion. >> i think it's a little too early to know precisely what the effect of the current policies have been. i think it's a real challenge to sort of parse through the financing issues versus the structural issues facing the industry, the disbursed supplier networks, how -- ho

general motors key contenders among them companies like toyota and volkswagen have a very minimal levels of debt. dad approximately equal either to the amount of cash they have on the balance sheet or one year's profit. so we were very mindful of trying to set up general motors to have a competitive balance sheet because that is one of the competitive weapons in the marketplace. and so that really left us that if we were not going to overburden the company with debt and the only remaining security we can have with it the equity and certainly we did not want to give this money away, this is the taxpayers' hard-earned money and so the determination was to take equity. in terms of the size of the stake and how that was determined, that was determined in arms length dealings with the other key stakeholders to the company who wanted two also be owners. that included the bondholders where we had a vigorous debate and the uaw on behalf of the retiree trust and they obviously wanted more equity than we wanted to give them and we wanted to give them less because on behalf of the taxpayer the obje