to discuss pakistan u.s. relations i'm joined by dan quayle human dubai he's the editor of the news service pakistan. east dot com in washington we have now was he's the director of the south asia center at the atlantic council the united states and author of crossed swords pakistan its army and wars within and in london we go to anatol lieven the chair of international relations and terrorism studies at king's college london and the author of the upcoming book pakistan a hard country and another member of our cross talk team on the hunger all right across talk rules in effect gentlemen that means you can jump in anytime you want and until i want to go to you first hillary clinton was in islam about not long ago i had a gift five hundred million dollars for civilian projects build dams and schools and whatnot and the pakistanis were didn't seem all that grateful expression after almost twelve billion dollars in aid since the bush administration eight of billion of that was for military but they weren't gratef

pakistan has a parliament. i know that some people think pakistan's civilian government is relatively weak. that's because it is a democracy that has come back only two years ago after several years of dictatorship. but within pakistan, we must understand that where it's the interservices intelligence, the i.s.i., or the army, they all operate in the context of pakistan's politics, in the context of pakistan's constitutional arrangement and the government in pakistan including our military and our intelligence services are very clear about the future direction. we want good relations with our neighbors. have no intention of trying to carve out a sphere of influence in afghanistan. we are concerned about the influence of india in afghanistan because we have had conflict with india and we dont want to have a situation in which we are caught in a pinser movement. but the solution to that lies in -- caught in a pincer movement. but the solution lies to that. >> charlie: is the concern about the end game in afghanis

. >> lehrer: then judy woodruff takes an extended look at pakistan. she talks to pakistan's u.s. ambassador about the airliner crash that killed 152 people, and she examines u.s./pakistani relations after the leak of thousands of secret military documents. >> ifill: we ask environmental engineer nancy kinner to track what's happened to the oil in the water. 100 days after the gulf disaster. >> lehrer: and spencer michels tells the story of a one-man mission to help clean up the oil in louisiana. >> a private individual has taken it upon himself to try to protect the barrier islands in the gulf of mexico. >> lehrer: that's all ahead on tonight's "newshour." major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> this is the engine that zero emission technologies to breathing a little easier, while taking 4.6 million truckloads off the road every year. bnsf, the engine that connects us. and the william and flora hewlett foundation, working to solve social and environmental problems at home and around the world. and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations.

pakistan. sorry i had to go i was going to go to i was going to go to washington if it's interesting here what we heard dan just say in and i think maybe that this is where the biggest problem is is that pakistan wants to have an afghanistan that is friendly to islamabad but can that include mr karzai because that that's the u.s. man in afghanistan i mean is that really where we have the differences can we find mutual accommodation between the two because we've heard just recently over the last week or so a pakistan and pakistan afghanistan relationship but where does that leave mr karzai and his agenda for afghanistan and the american one. i think first of all to go back to our tolls point you this is a missile alliance between the u.s. and pakistan countries really don't have friendships they have relationships and they have interests and their relationships are based on interests so we shouldn't really see this as a permanent relationship there will always be differences and the baggage of h

troops helping with the training in pakistan out of pakistan. i'd like to remind them on 9/11 we were attacked by al qaeda terrorists whose head was osama bin laden, and osama bin laden has been going back and forth across the afghani-pakistani border and there has been training going on with terrorists there and in yemen to try to foment war terrorism and to try to get them to move toward more attacks on the united states of america. this is a war that we're fighting to protect america as well as make sure the entire region over there is stable. pakistan is a nuclear power. if the taliban and al qaeda are successful in taking over that country, can you imagine what the rest of the world would have to deal with with them having the nuclear capability that they would have? that's one of the things we have to talk about. and without the training -- i'd like to point this out -- without the training of our troops that are in pakistan as trainers, the 230 of them, the money that we're using to fight this war against the taliban and al qaeda would no

pakistan partnership there was no such bill that gave development aid to pakistan and not the ordinary military aid so i mean that should not be overshadowed and the strategic dialogue is definitely a step towards the right direction my question is if there is so much development aid that's been given if now they start building up all these new projects do the well the pakistani people the civilian population will they know where that came from will the government tell them that this is thanks to u.s. aid and to the kerry lugar bill or are they thinking that this is their own government that's building up for them well here's the funny thing pakistan missed the pakistani population mistrusts the u.s. government as much as they mistrust the pakistani government so there's not that much legitimacy or of trust and the government either now you're absolutely right about the. you know there's been projects that for whatever reasons that's been done better there's a problem with the aid over branding and you know there's a lot of what two of the successful universities in pakistan a lot of p

troops helping with the training in pakistan out of pakistan. i'd like to remind them on 9/11 we were attacked by al qaeda terrorists whose head was osama bin laden, and osama bin laden has been going back and forth across the afghani-pakistani border and there has been training going on with terrorists there and in yemen to try to foment war terrorism and to try to get them to move toward more attacks on the united states of america. this is a war that we're fighting to protect america as well as make sure the entire region over there is stable. pakistan is a nuclear power. if the taliban and al qaeda are successful in taking over that country, can you imagine what the rest of the world would have to deal with with them having the nuclear capability that they would have? that's one of the things we have to talk about. and without the training -- i'd like to point this out -- without the training of our troops that are in pakistan as trainers, the 230 of them, the money that we're using to fight this war against the taliban and al qaeda would no

admiral mullen just came back from a visit to pakistan and he was asked about the suggestion that pakistan had links to the taliban. accepting that he and secretary gates -- the u.s. have always said elements of the pakistani intelligence service had links to militant and the united states considered that unacceptable. but what they are focusing on is the investigation. the fbi has been called in and secretary gates asked specifically will wikileaks be investigated itself. the defense secretary says it will go wherever it needs to. >> thank you for that. ending his trip to india, the prime minister has defended his comments about pakistan's record on tackling terrorism. david cameron has been accused of damaging relations with the country. on the final day of his visit to india, he held talks with the prime minister of india. >> the chaos of old dehli seems far away from the old india david cameron wants to draw close. but the prime minister says foreign countries -- says trips to foreign countries are not always orderly. he came on this trip promising to take jobs, but he left having stru

pakistan wants us in pakistan to help the pakistan government resist the taliban in pakistan. but they want to play a double game as the "the new york times" pointed out in an editorial today, by aiding against our troops in afghanistan. how can we advance our national interest when a country which is supposed to be our partner, is due police -- is wrong? i ask to put the article in "the new york times" be put in the record. the speaker pro tempore: without objection, so ordered. mr. mcgovern: mr. mcgovern, would you -- the speaker pro tempore: excuse me, gentleman. the chair recognizes mr. mcgovern. mr. mcgovern: i yield the gentleman an additional one minute. mr. dreier: if the gentleman will yield? the speaker pro tempore: excuse me. mr. dreier is recognized. mr. dreier: so is mister -- was the minute yielded to mr. kucinich or me? the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman is correct. mr. dreier: let me say very quickly, obviously i'm very sympathetic with the concern, and i argue that the revelation of this wicky leaks, you know, thousands and thousands of documents is eviden

or outside of pakistan in yemen? >> our assessment is he is most likely in the tribal areas of pakistan. >> given all the resources the u.s. government has at its command and all the years you and others have spent trying to find them, we essentially have no clue where he is? >> see he is in the tribal areas suggests we do have some clue. [laughter] >> right, but nice try. >> it sounds really silly. i don't mean to make light of this. finding him i think is a national security imperative. but he is hiding. he is hiding in an area of the world that is unbelievably difficult for the u.s. and the government of pakistan to operate. if you look at the olympic park, it in the mountains of appalachia for many years, it took him -- to belong time to find him as well. the world is an awfully big place. thanks to many movies like " enemy of the state" americans a imagine we have far greater capabilities to zoom in on any geographical or nets in the world and find the individual. if it were, my job would be a lot easier. >> let

our world officials editor says those in pakistan still face suicide bombings. >> pakistan does not have just one group of taliban to deal with. it's got to separate ones -- a home grown version and an afghan version, both operating on the territory. the army has clamped down hard on the pakistan the telegram, -- the pakistani taliban. the crackdown is succeeding although peshawar is still dangerous. i used to wander around here on my own without any problem. now most people locally say we should not stay in one place for more than 20 minutes for our own safety. a taliban suicide bomber heads for the press club. he blows himself up. it is caught on cc tv. the area outside peshawar has plenty of volunteers that support the afghan television. this is the village of the would-be bombers who left his car packed with explosives in times square three months ago, but was later arrested. locals make the link with afghanistan clear. >> for as long as the native forces remain in afghanistan there will be people like him. what happens in afghanistan has a direct effect on people's thinking here. >>

documents that accused pakistan intelligence of hoping insurgents in afghanistan. >> india and pakistan have a very complicated relationship. with the prime minister of britain to make this a statement in india seems to suggest partiality. >> this is not the first time david cameron has indulged in plain talking on foreign soil. yesterday's description of gaza as a prison camp was frank, too. he is establishing his own reputation in britain as well. on the ground in delhi, it is clear that pakistan will be on the table on talks between the prime minister and his indian counterpart tomorrow. david cameron has shown he is not shy of trying to set the agenda. bbc news. >> 100 days since the deep water horizon rig exploded in the gulf of mexico and triggered the worst oil spill in american history. oil is now clearing from the surface of the ec faster than expected, according to experts. -- from the start se of starta -- from the surface of the sea. st8 b)people have been killed n roadside bomb. it is thought nato forces were patrolling the area. french police have found the bodies of eigh

is using beleaguered documents to accuse pakistan of playing a double game. ninety one thousand documents coming out of we could say it's very clear that without some kind of test account tested ok from u.s. institutions leagues would not have been able to publish anything and what we see here and what we have to make of this is what the new york times writes pakistan aids insurgency in afghanistan reports a surge that is what on page a one the new york times carries this morning and they use the whole week you leaks information to accuse pakistan of a double game and the dreadful and on and on for ten pages with new york times with exes ations of double game against pakistan and what i accuse the new york times and what i q's american institutions of of lying all the time in their teeth they draw pakistan into that and i don't know how they manage to read the ninety one thousand documents and find out this truth in them but explicitly do they talk about what we can leaks and that is something which i find very astonishing and it reminds me in fact of the pra

suspicions about pakistan.

or pakistan receives the billion dollars from the u.s. government to support the fights against afghan insurgency but what we're seeing from these documents is in fact that the pakistani spy service appears to be holding secret meetings with the taliban in order to organize the militant groups that are fighting u.s. soldiers there is just some of the things that we can see in the story the real story of this material is that it's it's one thing after another. it is the continuous. continuous. this children. insurgents. howard forces he said that he was expecting that people whose abuse he had exposed would come out and criticize him essentially shooting the messenger and he also denied the fact that these leaks would cause any kind of operational insecurity or danger for the troops that are on the ground he said all the documents that he's released are seven months old and they have no real bearing on what's going on operationally in afghanistan at the moment he said that he had a home minimization process that those were his words he als

even as pakistan accepted billions in u.s. aid, the documents suggest isi officials conspired with taliban leaders to plan attacks against american forces in afghanistan. former isi chief hamid gul was reportedly deeply involved in the taliban operation. in an nbc interview today, he fired back. >> i deny it vehemently, outrightly. it is fictitious and fabricated. >> reporter: at the white house today, press secretary robert gibbs called the allegations old news, and insisted pakistan has stepped up its efforts to eliminate safe havens and drive out the taliban. >> i'm not going to stand here on july the 26th and tell you that all is well. i will tell you that we have made progress in moving this relationship forward. >> reporter: the documents do show serious concerns among u.s. military commanders. they repeatedly complain about lack of resources, unreliable afghan soldiers and a corrupt afghan government. some cases suggest possible military cover-ups. in may 2007 documents show the taliban shot down a u.s. helicopter with

a severe water shortage is causing droughts in pakistan. parts of the southern and job have been turned into -- parts of the southern punjab have been turned into desert. some accused india of blocking the water from their side of the border. >> these were the rich, fertile plains of the self punjab. they have just lost the battle against the desert that encroaches further and further. it is hard to believe now, but there were crowds here two years ago. in fact, this whole area was lush and green. the people in this area were making a decent living. since then, the water channels have run dry, the crops have failed, and these same farmers are living in extreme poverty. they are doing what they can, but the deterioration in their lives has come so quickly. half of this farmers -- former's livestock have died since the water stopped coming. he used to grow crops, but demand has turned to dust. >> he says that they pray to god for help. sometimes he thinks the only solution is to hang themselves. >> this is one of several rivers in pakistan th

strategy in pakistan? guest: i think it will take more effort by the administration's diplomats and commanders to persuade the pakistani people that the u.s. is serious in the relationship. i think the pakistani people are always suspicious of american intentions. 60-yearountry's history, we have a history of picking them up and then dropping them. this would accentuate that feeling. it is hard to tell how much of the storm it will create in the pakistan. host: hillary clinton was in pakistan last week, bringing $500 million, the first part of an aid package to the country. it is supposed to be about $1 billion over the next five years. is that correct? guest: the aid package as $7.5 billion over five years, which is to go for civilian projects, separate and above the aid for the military. host: what is the impact of the money versus the situation this week with the documents? guest: the pakistani people are fairly unimpressed about the amount of money the u.s. gives them. anti-american cement in pakistan

moment, i am not going to say they will walk in and take over pakistan, far from it but i think the pakastanis feel a strong negotiating position in the end game in afghanistan. >> rose: as you said earlier in this conversation, the afghan taliban as their surrogates. >> absolutely. >> rose: do you agree with that, eric? >> absolutely, that long has been the position right here now, and i think in addition as you mentioned before, not only the afghan taliban but the ikani network, these are two longstanding factionof the militancy that pakastani taliban have influence over. the question is how much longer they will have that kind of influence. i think the longer time goes on perhaps the more attenuated that influence may become. if you look at the afghan taliban, for instance, their leadership has been based out of qatar pakistan for some time now yet you have younger more aggressive leaders on the ground in southern afghanistan who aren't always willing to take orders anymore from the shura as they call it in southern pakistan so i think there is also a sse that the time is right t

soldiers pakistan of course the last event tonight. that one of the most interesting things about this is that this is not the end of this story there are already as we've said ninety thousand documents but. there are fifteen thousand more that he has yet to assess but he is going to put out there when he judges the time is right let's hear what he had to say. we will release. but some of them may need production some of them may need. for you. to feel richer will be released. situation you know going to. be held back. to. make sure that we should be repopulation you know going to. publish today will to christine result kristie that this leak compromises u.s. national security how hard did they come down on these revelations today. well given they're coming down very hard on many levels as you said the national security level they say that this makes the fight against extremist much harder to have this information out here they're also coming down quite hard on wiki leaks just a couple minutes ago the white house briefing press briefin

that became a threat to pakistan. for the first time ever, use of pakistan fighting back against violence extremists. when general jones refers it to the statement, the actions they took, that is what we're take -- that is what we're talking about. on the premise of your question, understand the documents and in 2009. i do not know if you meant to conflate actions -- i think they're making progress again. again, i would point you to the hearing that was conducted just one month ago, less than one month ago, and general petraeus has talked about this. no one is here to declare mission accomplished. he had not heard that phrase admitted by us saying that everything is going well. understand this. we got involved in this region of the world after 9/11. for years and years and years, this area was neglected, it was under resources, underfunded. that is what let the president to say that what we need to do is focus on what is going on in the afghanistan. it is why we are here. >> two questions. given the apparent ease that

. >> rose: joining us now, two coauthors of the new york story, chief correspondent in pakistan, eric submit, the terrorism correspondent i am pleased to have both of them back on this program. what is the most damaging thing here with respect to the war? >> i think it is the volume of the documents. it is a record of a pattern of a war in afghanistan that is incredibly difficult for a number of reasons that we all know of, corruption, culture clash, in ability of the american soldiers to prosecute the war because of the deftness of the taliban, their knowledge of the terrain, their financial backing and i think it also confirms the value of the safe havens in pakistan for the afghan taliban. >> rose: are there talk among source this is will cause them to look at this policy again? >> well, clearly they are looking at this policy clearly they have done two major reviews, one in march of last year, one in december, and the president gave his speech at west point and they are due for another one at the end of this year with the comu new commander david petraeus charged with providing an

here in america, afghanistan, africa or pakistan. the way to overcome that i think is through education and also with having courage and compassion. instead of building walls we need to build peace and have the courage to do that. so i went back to pakistan in 94 and brought the school supplies and finally got to the village and the man was again there to greet me. he shook his head and said, chizle what the heck. not only had i come back, he said you've made two big mistakes. we don't start building before wintertime and if you really want to build school we're going to have to build a bridge first and i hadn't really thought about that. so i came back to america and raised 10,000 more dollars. and then i got back from tack stan and bridge got built and no school yet. i was 38 years old, die hard bachelor and all i could think was getting that school built. i went to a fund raise er the fair month in san francisco where my hero was speaking. it was getting late and people were nodding off and he was going on and on about the queens

in pakistan bollywood films are greatly appreciated be seen. people enjoy them so i mean to see a pakistani in a bollywood film something very refreshing and new for them but pakistan's firm censors have banned the movie saying it mocks security agencies. and screening it in public could trigger violence the film's distributors in pakistan call it a message of peace and not appealing the ban but i thought it was a nice film there's a lot of good humor from the name it sounds like a serious film but actually it turned out quite different it's full of great jokes . definitely quite a good film people will definitely like it mind vice to them is to come and watch it and they will like it there's nothing here that will incite people to smile and . the selling point of this film is osama bin laden but it's very tongue in cheek. to act the part in the movie i challenge you america there will be retribution holding just an evil actions you have committed in the countries like iraq and afghanistan so these you will have to pay a heavy price when i firs

all the clothes that pakistan is still look here's the picking order pakistan. mujahideen in soviet times then there were diggin arrayed it was transformed into a taliban it's the same old story this is what we are witnessing right now it's a wilson war part to their revenge or blowback that's it that pakistan strategically for the soviet forces for us it was the main impediment on i mean unsurmountable challenge we couldn't cross the river as we used to say in soviet times do you know hot pursuit against them and the mujahideen into pakistan american scam but they are not willing to open up their eyes and to realize that pakistan is the most indispensable ally of the united states is the most indispensable ally off taliban and. so now in terms of these leaks in particular we keep saying has said that a sort of the white house office has condemned the leaks and it was sponsible while weekly says that just promoting transparency in this issue what's your view on that . my view is the third one i completely i understand the logic behind the u.s. military who was n

include reports on the deaths of hundreds of civilians increase taliban attacks as well as nato fears pakistan and iran are backing the insurgency earlier my colleague kevin owen spoke to our correspondents on both sides of the atlantic laura i met in london and christine for zahau in washington. well there's certainly is some suggestion that this is nothing new we knew this before we knew that there was corruption running right through the war in afghanistan and we knew that this was going on but certainly to see it in black and white particularly represented by as you say more than ninety thousand documents is something quite extraordinary what happened was that julian assange the founder of wiki leaks released this information ahead of time to three newspapers one here in london the guardian one in germany biegel and also to the new york times they then looked at that information and assessed what they wanted to write about and whether the information was genuine and he then held a media conference. and talked about it and one of the things that he said was he was pressed by journalists on

pakistan is now in the monsoon season. when heavy rains and dense cloud move up from the indian ocean and the weather was terrible. some other flights have reportedly been canceled over the past few days, but it is much too early to conclude what caused this crash. the terrain around the airport is densely forested hills and valleys making access to the crash site extremely difficult. the plane was an airbus 321 and the flight is a regular commuter run between pakistan's largest city and its capital and was operated by the private airblue airline. while there have been safety issues with pakistan's aviation industry, airblue, which has been in business for six years, has a good safety record. >> the effort now is to try to find survivors. the plane, the airline says, was no more than eight years old and had no known technical issues. and it had not sent out any emergency signals. betty? >> mark phillips joining us in london this morning, thank you. >>> in other news, in this country, a major wildfire north of los angeles i

does pakistan have reason to feel defensive in response to his message? a comes just after the leaking of u.s. documents that accused pakistan intelligence services of secretly helping the insurgents in afghanistan. >> there are many ruffled feathers in islam a bad period for the prime minister of britain to make a statement in india while on an official visit seems to suggest partiality. texted days comments are the first time david cameron has indulged in plain talking on foreign soil. yesterday's description of gaza as a prison camp was a break, and while he is here in india, he is establishing his own reputation as well. it's clear pakistan will be on the table in talks between the prime minister and his indian counterpart tomorrow. on this final leg of state chairman's latest foreign travel, he showed he is not shy of trying to set the agenda. >> a french couple are due to appear in court on thursday after police found the bodies of eight newborn babies buried in a village in northern france. they are said to be the parents of the children. forensic

i've worked afghanistan and pakistan many years and i said we need to have a tribal council. i went to manhattan in the fall of 2005 and the big boss of the whole group, nancy shepherd and carlin coburn in publicity. we met in a little room and i stated my case and they said, this is your first book so you need to listen to a few things here. first of all only 12 percent of nonfiction books make a profit and 2/3 are pre chosen by the publisher. we'd like to put our marketing arm behind us but your having to fight tear riz m to this. since i grew up in africa and worked pakistan for many years you never settle a deal without driving a hard bargain so i said if the hard cover doesn't do well, i'd like the subtitle changed later on for the paper back. julia and our other board relently pounded away month after month. i was in pakistan of december of 2006 and there was a new editor on the book and they said they decided to change the title to one man's mission to promote peace. the hard cover didn't do that well. sold 20,000 copies. while the paper back came out on january 30th o

this northwest area is now cut off from the rest of pakistan. he approaches to the two main highways are blocked off. -- the approaches to the two main highways are blocked off. outerbridge is broken. no. pakistan lies close to of volatile -- a volatile tribal belt. now nature poses a major threat. this area could remain cut off for weeks. for many people, their lives will change forever. bbc news. >> at china's worst oil spill is far more serious than the government is admitting according to environmentalists to it and to the scene. a fire on an oil depot sent crude leaking into the sea. all of that was a fortnight ago. volunteers are trying to clean it up without gloves, masks, or any protection. we have this special report from chris hogg. >> these boats were built for fishing, now correcting -- collecting oil. the oil was spilled when two pipelines exploded. china says the spill is under control. the cleanup is like a scene from the 1920's. this man is exhausted. >> i did not sleep last night at all. >> no wonder. -- no gloves, goggles, or m