a point. >> rose: but it was more trotsky than... >> trotsky because trotsky had great literary talent and flare. but once... the obligation, as he said, to raised his scarred old fists to defend these, in many ways, beautiful ideals, although as we saw, sort of horribly travestied in the end. >> rose: never to become. >> no. and actually, you know, what sort of a utopia would it be? it would be hideous, the marxist you open the kwrarbgs it's an appalling vision. utopias are always hells. but once he'd start needing to do that, it was almost instantaneous that his literary gifts were suddenly free. writing is free... >> rose: liberated and enhanced. >> yeah. writing is freedom. if you've got some commissar staring over your shoulder, you're not free. if you have some consensus that you're loyal to, you're not free. >> rose: the power of reference. is that a learned thing? i mean... >> the power of reference is very close to what is so extraordinary about christopher. >> rose: yeah, exactly. >> that, you know, it's like a lawyer who can marshall dozens of precedents and counterexamples