reid and john boehner, -- harry reid and john boehner, they knew they were serious. that made it harder for republicans to say they're not serious at all. it then became about the specific kind of cults, which made it a less easy political position for republicans to paints the democrats as out of touch. >> having watched a bunch of these deal-making conferences over the last 15 years, i can tell you that the dealmakers have a way of getting separated from their caucuses. even though they can come out of days of frustrating negotiations and sometimes go back and not actually be able to sell what they have wrought, ambassador that's one of the downsides of this last-minute deadlines that both sides of playing. it doesn't leave you time to miss calculate. and these kinds of judgments you make, i'll take a 3-1 turn, a 5-1 on a rider, you're really playing a very high-stakes game. so we'll see if we can get these passed. gwen: all of us were covering washington in 1995, the time of the last big government shutdown and there are similarities here. it's natural for us to i

last night, speaker boehner made it pretty plain that is not going to happen. let's listen to what he said. >> and the president says, "i want you to send me a clean bill." guess what, mr. president. not a chance you're going to get a clean bill. i can just tell you this. there will not be an increase in the debt limit without something really, really big attached to it. >> schieffer: well, senator sessions, what does that mean "without something really, really big attached to it"? >> we've got to talk about the systemic problem that we have. we limited how much debt by congressional action that the country could assume. we reached that limit far sooner than we thought because the spending is surging out of control. so the question now is, should we raise it? and the american people are saying, "children, you've misbehaved. you've spent too much of our money." i think through their elected representatives, they will insist that we make some changes in how we operate the budget. you could have a two-year budget, for example, instead of one. i think that would he

john boehner helped them get their victory. they took his original number, doubled it to 61 and came back to 39. he gave them credit all along and said you put me in the corner i want to be. i think the tea party freshmen got what they wanted but they also didn't revolt against the speaker. they got what they wanted. a lot of what they want and fell in line. those are two important things. >> it's a huge victory for the tea party. the conservative published editorial in january saying forget about this year's budget. not that much money at stake. get it done and take last year's c.r. and continue it and have the fight over the big paul ryan budget. the tea party -- john boehner said no, let's get some cuts. tea party people said let's get big cuts. they ended up with big cuts this year. i have didn't think it could be done three months ago. the evident of the pie in the sky, unrealistic type got real cut and real spending this year. >> chris: quickly, juan? >> i think they got real cuts at the point of threatening everybody and

and jay carney said, oh, no, no, no, we agree with john boehner. we know when you have a deal, it's a deal for all of it. we just think that we all agree we're pretty close on the number, we're just working out the details. the white house doesn't want to throw john boehner under the bus publicly, do they? >> he's their negotiating partner. boehner has been in private in these talks from all reports pretty reasonable. he recognizes that he has a balancing act to do. he must get support from some republicans, but in the end, this deal is likely to be like the tax deal they passed during the lame duck session and like the last cr was. this is likely to be a deal that gets passed only because it gets sufficient votes from both republicans and democrats, the kind of bipartisan compromise that the president said he would put through on a range of issues as president. this is a challenge for john boehner more than anyone else, but it's clear he knows from the comments he made today, he can't deliver what the tea party wants, even if he was willing to tak

i didn't find many saying that john boehner really screwed up here. they were saying it's a tough situation, as good as he could get but i don't like it. gwen: what you have is a lot of fiscal conservatives. they're fairly ideological about this. it's not personal necessarily. but they came to washington to cut this budget. is that setting the stage for the kind of fights we're going to see in the future? >> if you look at that vote, the 59 was sort of the high watermark so far. within that you have about two dozen that would most likely be considered the tea party republicans, this wave elected last november that are going to be a thorn in john boehner's side for the next year and a half. the republican party is never going to go as far to the right as they believe they came here to push the party. you raise an interesting point about leverage the democrats have. in the debate over the c.s.r. i think the democrats felt they had no leverage. but when it came to the floor -- the bill that averted the shutdown. when it came to that vote they did knee so

like john boehner. john boehner has spoken consistently both publicly and privately about how he wanted to avoid a government shut down, to avoid where he is right now. but the new freshman class, and some of the other real fire breaker conservatives in the house conference were not here. the memory is not quite as vivid for them. the memory by the way, charlie, is also very vivid for the leaders in the democrat caucus in the senate. durbin was here in the house, shoeman was here, harry reid was here. they saw what happened the last time around there was a government shut down. and they saw how it was blamed on republicans and how craftily you said bill clinton used it to his advantage. frankly they've been, you know, in some ways angling for that, at least preparing for the fact if there is a government shut down, this is something that will show the republicans to be in their view who they really are. out there on the extreme. but you know, for a lot of the rank and file, these new fire brand conserva

boehner's going to cut the deal. eric cantor's going to squawk but he's probably going to go along with it in the end even as he tells the tea party people that he's sorry. >> howard fineman of the huffington post and msnbc, thanks for joining us tonight, howard. >> thank you, lawrence. >>> michele bachmann called the tea party to action at the capitol today to rally in favor of drastic spending cuts. exactly how many people have to show up to call something a rally? slate's dave weigel was there, and he joins us. plus, a critical look at the man who will run president obama's re-election campaign. look, we've all dealt with the itching of athlete's foot. i can't just wash it away. killing it takes clinical strength. i only use lotrimin ultra. its powerful formula can even cure severe cases of athlete's foot. nothing cures better. lotrimin ultra. the killer cure. >>> the tea party marched on washington today and rallied at the capitol hanging on michele bachmann's every word. they were there to scare congress into vo

boehner tried again. the president repeated "nope, zero." then silence. >> boehner knew it was time to give up trying to cut planned parenthood but he did extract a couple billion dollars more in cuts from the president. >> over the hurdle of this budget battle, but there's a larger one looming and not far off. >> the 2012 budget comes up pretty quickly. it was introduced in the house just this past week. but even before that, david, the debt ceiling comes up. can the government borrow more money and look for the republicans to extract something significant from the democrats before they lift that ceiling. david? >> david kerley at the white house. thanks so much. >>> as americans wait to see how the cuts will affect them, a different kind of score card tonight, the political one. let's bring in the host of "this week" christiane amanpour. always great to see you. i want to play for you the president talking about compromise here and get your reaction on the backside. >> like any worthwhile compromise, both sides had to make tough decisions

john boehner, speaker of the house. we have a government shutdown scheduled for a week from tomorrow. here's what he said. >> here's the bottom line. democrats are rooting for a government shutdown. we are listening to the people who sent us here to cut spending so we can grow our economy. as i said from the beginning our goal is to cut stepping, not shutdown the government. you've heard a lot of talk over the last 24 hours. there's no agreement on numbers. nothing will be agreed to until everything is agreed to. we control one half of 1/3 of the government here. we are going to continue to fight for the largest spending cuts that we can get, keep the government open and fun it through the balance of this fiscal year. >> sean: what scared me and a lot of conservatives, we only control one half of 1/3 of the government we'll continue fight for the largest spending cuts. they promised and made a specific promise, 61 billion dollars that they passed to their credit, it seeps like there's wiggle room. >> of course. >> sean:

ok how much should it cost us to have these symbolic gestures because i mean even boehner is that man and said that that you know don't mistake this is not actually saving money it's not like the government takes a break and you know if you're not spending money then or not you know function and then we're not spending money i mean interruption of contracts is going to have a problem impact on jobs on the economy it could cost billions i mean it's got to be is not going to be able go nuts and these are the guys who are funding the republican politicians well i don't know if there's really going to be that catastrophic events in the economy but the shutdown i think that they have to go on very much if it goes on for months maybe but it's a political it's a real it's going to somebody's going to their passport they've got to take it to europe they're in trouble well or you know all the tourist industry i mean there's billions and billions of dollars that these small communities make and was heading down the national park service i know that people say look at on a big deal but you know

when they ron won last year, the republican battles cry was big spending but they forced john boehner to go to the mat over decades old concerns like planned parent hoot. the congress propose add budget plan for next year that would blow up medicare and medicaid and drastically cut all spending excepts for defense. its author, paul ryan, said bold action is worth the risk. >> if that means we're giving our political adverseries weapons, shame on them. chris: it could define the battlefield in 201. >> both republicans and democrats are now joined on anied lolling cal confrontation that will help frame the 2012 presidential election. >> the 2012 budget is going to be the big battle. with paul ryan throwing down the gaughan let. >> what president obama probably thinks is probably what we all think which is what paul ryan did this week starts a national conversation/debate that runs all the way through the 2012 election. kevin: that is all talk about shutting down the government, and ryan's budgets, going for the kill. is this smart for 2012? >> for republicans? probably not. we have to g

boehner's going to cut the deal. eric cantor's going to squawk but he's probably going to go along with it in the end even as he tells the tea party people that he's sorry. >> howard fineman of the huffington post and msnbc, thanks for joining us tonight, howard. >> thank you, lawrence. >>> michele bachmann called the tea party to action at the capitol today to rally in favor of drastic spending cuts. exactly how many people have to show up to call something a rally? slate's dave weigel was there, and he joins us. plus, a critical look at the man who will run president obama's re-election campaign. it bringss s it hit helps the lhe of companipanies like the she smallestt ofof startups.ups. th ththat lets yos your employeloy, pa and custcustomersvate and sharee so you can can unleash tsh the of your mor your peopleople. >>> the tea party marched on washington today and rallied at the capitol hanging on micle bama'svewo. th w treca core io voting for the tea party budget. dave weigel was there and joins us with his off

but let me ask, boehner versus gingrich and boehner versus boehner. >> he was a committee chairman. that is important training, and different than others who move up the leadership ladder and not through the committee process. he really accomplished something. then he did what many who get knocked off the leadership ladder do, he went into the committee and became a serious legislator. he then came back into the leadership process, having been the effective chairman of the education and labor committee. it is not a choice assignment for a republican. he did a very good job. that affects the way that he performs as speaker in a fairly significant way. we will see that as we go forward. the other thing i would say about speaker boehner, newt gingrich thought of himself as the leader of the republican party. no question in his mind that he was the leader of the republican party. other people might question that. john boehner does not think of himself that way. he gets a lot of jokes made about his emotionalism. i think there is a genuine humility in him about the position he is in. he

but from what i know, it sounds like john boehner got a good deal. probably not good enough for me to support it but a good deal nonetheless. well, look this country's in trouble. i mean we've got -- we were asking for a 2% cut in the budget, and that ended up being too much of a cut for this administration and for liberals in congress. >> but you say you won't support it yet speaker boehner did a good job. what happened? do you think he folded too early? >> look, i cannot bring myself to be critical of a basketball player that gets two on one all night. i can't bring myself to be critical of john boehner who was squared off against a white house and liberals in congress who couldn't accept a 2% budget cut and who dug in and were willing to shut down the government to continue to send a million dollars a day to the largest abortion provider in america. >> we're going to get to that in a second. let me ask you if congressman pence is not going to vote for this, are you going to vote for it? do you think it will pass on your side? >> well, christiane,

boehner versus gingrich and boehner versus boehner. what has he learned? >> that is a big -- that is a big question. one of the things that distinguishes john boehner -- he was a committee chairman. that is important training. it is different more than people who move up the leadership ladder not through the committee process. he was not off of the leadership ladder, and then did what many people to whom do, he went into the committee and became a serious legislator. he came back into the leadership process, adding than a in the effective chairmanship -- an effective chairman. it is not a choice assignment for republicans. he did a good job. that affects the way he performs as speaker in a significant way, and we will see that play out as we go forward. the other thing i would say about speaker broder, newt gingrich thought of himself as the leader of the republican party. there's no question in his mind that he was the leader of the republican party. other people may have questioned that. john boehner does not think about himself that way. i think there i

john boehner had a tough time. with the democratic votes -- without democratic votes -- he lost republicans, and without the democratic votes it goes down. >> it was a triumph on his part considering how the deal was demagogued and distorted in the last three days. yes, only 1% would have been appropriated in this fiscal year, which only has 5.5 months to go. but the savings are real. denial of authorization, so it cannot be spent in the future. it is real money. it is not going to happen between now and october. distortion is what led a lot of republicans on at the right to think that they were betrayed. given those facts, what they ended up with, losing only 1/3 of the freshman, was rather good. >> john boehner could not have gotten it done without the democrats. that is the harbinger of things to come. john boehner does not have full control of this conference -- >> democrats don't, either. >> well, it is not clear -- >> he is the leader -- >> this is larger, but it was controlled, as it were. i actually think w

boehner versus gingrich and boehner versus boehner. what has he learned? >> that is a big -- that is a big question. one of the things that distinguishes john boehner -- he was a committee chairman. that is important training. it is different more than people who move up the leadership ladder not through the committee process. he was not off of the leadership ladder, and then did what many people to whom do, he went into the committee and became a serious legislator. he came back into the leadership process, adding than a in the effective chairmanship -- an effective chairman. it is not a choice assignment for republicans. he did a good job. that affects the way he performs as speaker in a significant way, and we will see that play out as we go forward. the other thing i would say about speaker broder, newt gingrich thought of himself as the leader of the republican party. there's no question in his mind that he was the leader of the republican party. other people may have questioned that. john boehner does not think about himself that way. i think there i

where i go to work this thing that they've got a great question and i would not want to be john boehner for a lot of reasons right now he has two sides point against him in a matter what he does he's going to lose if he doesn't ask for enough budget cuts he's going to lose if you ask for too much he's going to lose those not very agreeable to john peter right now i don't think it's really about john boehner i think it's about america and i think sometimes you make what leadership is about is making tough decisions and deciding what's best for this country and whether or not i learned early and also again about america and their six trillion dollar deficit we have a fourteen trillion dollar debt that none of the democrats have addressed surely you know real but actually it was an address did he give us a friggin surplus that was nineteen and i before he got it i was. two thousand rockets i'm also commissioned the federal deficit commission i mean like they're it's not as if democrats are walking away from this and saying that oh we're not going to play ball here but it they're dealing wi

boehner. but they're not ecstatic about the compromise, but that is a compromise. the fact that both sides did not get everything that they want but they were able to make sure that, for example, the planned parenthood provision, the controversial provision to defund planned parenthood, that will not be included in the long term funding bill, per se. but senate majority leader reid said, ok, we will have been up and down vote on it in the senate. when it comes up on the floor. that was good. because the house republicans were adamant that a block -- that that be included in the long term bill. host: was that a real issue to get them to this number? guest: it was a real issue, probably to get them to the number. my general understanding of the situation is on tuesday night, after the initial white house meeting that morning, harry reid and john boehner met and boehner's office. i think that that day -- last night there were sprinklings of the conspiracy theory among staffers that they probably

almost certainly going to pass but the question is how many republicans defect is the big deal john boehner has always had a somewhat tenuous grip on the more conservative wing of the republicans in the house and a number of them at various times revolted against some of the previous short term funding bills that he put before them so there's always the chance of a significant numbers as you know what we don't like this deal we're just going to register our frustration if we have any idea what's actually in it so we have a number but what's what's in this thirty eight point five going gosh is planned parenthood still a huge issue i haven't heard any way to defend say well funded planned parenthood is stored on it it usually tells we do not know yet now they've pledged to put it up by the end of tonight i think by good night so we can actually take a look into it but we only know what details they've told us we can actually look. the actual legislation i'm assuming that we know the defense is going to be just fine when it comes to that now as i say when it comes to raising the debt ceiling i

john boehner does not have a mandate from the women across the country. the war is out of country our country's values. we are here today and every day to make sure that john boehner here is as loud and clear. let's make some allies. -- some noise. if you wrote a book to get here -- rose eight -- run a bus to get here, and make some noise. if you are under 30 years old, and make some always. -- make some noise. but this is the first day you are mad as hell, make some of noise. if you are part of his pro- choice nation, make some noise. many of them could not be with us today. each of you hold the power to persuade these elected officials to stand with us. and activist from march massachusetts could not be here. she said you have to tell them your story. you represent at least 100 voices that cannot be with us today. i stand on your shoulders. if you are pro-choice america. together we fight, today, tomorrow, every day until we and this war on women. [shares] cheers] >> please welcome chuck schumer. [cheers] >> hello. i am a graduate student at syracuse un

boehner, where is it? when do these bush tax rates kick in and we start adding millions of jobs every month? it isn't going to happen. it's another game being played by the republicans who just want to get rid of the president. they want to shut this down because they want to blame president obama. and here are the senate democrats, instead of standing up and saying no, president obama doesn't have anything to do about this, this is our call in the senate. we're the democrats. we represent the people across the country and this is exactly what we're going to do. i kind of feel like this is a public option fight all over again. you know? they have the power to do it. they just have to have the guts to do it. get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's question. should democrats explain their support of spending cuts? text a for yes. text b for no to 622639. we'll get you the results later on in the show and once you go to our new blog at ed.msnbc.com. there are two sides to this story

what my friend john boehner needs to do is say what's the best thing for the country. we all know the best thing for the country is to work something out on this. it's so easy to do. but we have to have a fair share of other programs-- not just these programs that hurt middle class and the poor in america. >> schieffer: all right. mr. majority leader, thank you so much for being with us this morning. >> sure. >> schieffer: when we come back, we'll talk to lindsey graham who is a republican. he may have some different ideas about this. in just a minute. >> schieffer: now from the campus of clemson university in south carolina, senator lindsey graham. senator graham, want to start with this... what senator reed just said. he suggested... i asked him, i said, are speaker boehner and the mainstream republicans, the people that have been around a while, just afraid of the tea party. he said that's a pretty good choice of words. are you afraid of the tea party? >> no, i think they're an important part of the republican coalition. but our democratic friends should be afraid o

boehner. they like him. they respect him. i think he is pretty effective speaker actually, but nobody think he is delivered majority the way newt delivered majority. republicans were ready to follow him in any direction he wanted to go and do anything he wanted to do because they figured they wouldn't be in the majority without him. when he led toward the shutdown of government or confrontation with the clinton administration which led to the shutdown of the government there was a great deal of confidence at the end of the day the guy who ad delivered house majority for the republicans for the first time in 40 years was going to win politically in this confrontation. by the way newt still thinks they won politically in that confrontation. you probably seen that. that was pretty much the attitude. you can't, and janet started talking about it, you can't really overstate the difference between a gingrich-led congress or house and a boehner-led house. >> turn to vick. -- vic. i like to hear point

i want to thank speaker boehner and leader reid during this process. i was able to sign a tax cut for american families because both parties were to their differences and found common ground. now the same cooperation will make possible the biggest annual spending cut in history. it is my sincere hope that we can continue to come together as we face the many difficult challenges that lie ahead from creating jobs and growing our economy to educating our children and reducing our deficit. that is what the american people expect us to do. that is why they sent us here. a few days ago, i received a letter from a mother in colorado. over the year, her son's eighth grade class saved up money and work on projects of that next week they could take a class trip to washington, d.c. they even had an appointment to lay a wreath on the tomb of the unknown soldier. the mother wrote that for the last few days, the kids had been worried and upset that they might have to cancel their trip because of this shutdown. she asked those of us in washington to get past petty gr

i think boehner wants to compromise, but the question is -- does he have the votes? in that case, is this a reasonable outcome? the blue dogs might cross over and vote for this, and some other moderate democrats, but there has been no attempt that i know of at any kind of a deal. i think boehner realizes that he has got to play this straight until right at the very end, and then he has to make a decision. >> let me ask what is going on with these riders. harry reid was signaling his willingness to talk about the, and people made it clear that it would be some of the environment stuff. one of my colleagues ran into a house democrat i cannot name, but he said the epa is not going to be happy. but just now, majority leader harry reid said there would be no epa riders whatsoever and said the white house assured him of that. >> i have no idea how this will come out. i believe that in order to get a bill passed and get any democratic support, most of these riders are going to have to go because they are too controversial. as i said, on the great work, we can do that one. t

and boehner's in a box. but if he supports the tea party, there's going to inevitably be a shutdown. >> now, you know, i have no problem with reporters hearing that. i said it a few hours before on the floor of the senate. i said on it this show. the tea party is the group standing in the way. they are extreme. any group that says you don't cut oil subsidies to companies making billions and billions of dollars. subsidies that were passed when the price of oil was $17 to encourage production and now the price is over $100. and at the same time, says, cut student aid to help qualified students go to college, yeah. i believe they're extreme. i have no problem with that. >> okay, senator sessions. extreme and holding the party hostage. >> it's absolutely false. millions of americans participated in the tea parties. tens of millions of americans support and believe what they're saying. they are right fundamentally. maybe they don't understand all the washington politics. they know the country is on a path to fisc

and so i think that's a problem for boehner too. not just the freshman, but also the older members who are trying to take advantage of the situation. >> woodruff: and meanwhile the president, or i should say the democratses are getting some heat from the left. they're saying the white house, the democrats have maybe give then too much already. >> the explanation you get from the white house is that the president was seen, as too intimately and personally and completely involved in the legislative process the first two yars. and so they have distanced him from this. and there is this grumbling. a, that they have given am too much too soon on the cuts that were talked about. and that the president himself is not personally sophed. it's not simply mike pence and some of the others, newt gingrich, of recent and fond memory, and presidential ambitions, appeared before the house republicans yesterday and urged them to be even tougher. i'm sure john boehner must have been thrilled by that appearance. >> woodruff: well, we are going to have

but speaker boehner is in a tricky spot. on the one hand he's under pressure to get a deal done. on the other hand he has to do something to reach out to tea party conservatives and how he navigates that tricky terrain is going to be interesting. >> lehrer: and everybody who says they don't want a shutdown, the tea party conservatives wouldn't mind having one, am i right about that? >> i think so. there's a lot of tea party conservatives and they have a lot of different views but they feel if that's what it takes to cut funding significantly, then bring it on. there are people like congressman mike pence of indiana who's a leader of that group and he has sort of said look, i don't want a shutdown but if that's what we have to do, that's what we have toe do. but everybody else in both parties is saying they want to avoid it at all costs because it would lead to a volatile political environment. nobody knows for sure who would be blamed. nobody knows what the outcome would be. so it's something both parties are shying away from with the exception of those tea party conservatives yo

speaker boehner's got a challenge. he's got a tea party caucus that is made up of folks who do not believe their job coming here is to legislate or compromise. it is to stick to the appeals they got aelected on. that is not point of congress, is it? >> that's not the point, but i think people respect that these people have strong beliefs. standing up for what you believe in has always been part of the american identity, standing up for what you believe and are willing to lose. i wonder what democrats are willing to lose for in this election. i think the tea party folks are making a strong point. we're willing to lose over this. we're willing to lose over this fight. the problem i think most americans find is they're not clear on what those people are willing to build the country to do. they understand cutting. they understand fiscal responsibility. i think everybody does. but people, americans are hungry for greatness, too, you know? americans see what's going on in the middle east and say we should be a role model for

john boehner versus john gingrich -- john boehner versus newt gingrich. what has he learned to make him the speaker he is not? >> the gang of seven? is that the group? >> one of the things that distinguishes john boehner -- he was a committee chairman. that is important training. it is different from many people who move up the leadership ladder and not through the committee process. john boehner accomplish something remarkable. he was knocked off of the leadership ladder and did what many people who get knocked off of the leadership ladder do. he went into the committee and decided to become a serious legislator. he came back into the process having been a successful committee chairman. that is not a choice assignment, usually. he did a good job. that affects the way he performs as speaker in a fairly significant way. we will see that play out as we go forward. the other thing i would say about speaker an air, newt gingrich -- about speaker boehner, there was no question in newt gingrich's mind that he was the leader of the republican party. john boehner