richard clark, are you with us? >> yes, george, i am. >> if i could just talk about the -- what had gone into the effort. you're the head of counterterrorism at the white house for so many years, to target bin laden. >> well, there were attempts to kill him beginning in 1998 when president clinton put his name on a hit list and the cia was ordered to do that inside afghanistan. that didn't work. there was an attempt to get him by u.s. forces when we invaded under president bush in october of 2001. that didn't work. and he was able to escape into pakistan. and it appears from where he was captured, where he was killed, that he may have been in pakistan all of these last ten years in that wild outback area where american forces had a very, very difficult time going. that's why the predators were so key in flushing him out. but it sounds like, perhaps, the u.s. forces went across the border to get him. clearly the u.s. force hs to go across at least to get the body. that does mean there will be a reaction in pakistan.

richard clark, are you with us? >> yes, george, i am. >> if i could just talk about the -- what had gone into the effort. you're the head of counterterrorism at the white house for so many years, to target bin laden. >> well, there were attempts to kill him beginning in 1998 when president clinton put his name on a hit list and the cia was ordered to do that inside afghanistan. that didn't work. there was an attempt to get him by u.s. forces when we invaded under president bush in october of 2001. that didn't work. and he was able to escape into pakistan. and it appears from where he was captured, where he was killed, that he may have been in pakistan all of these last ten years in that wild outback area where american forces had a very, very difficult time going. that's why the predators were so key in flushing him out. but it sounds like, perhaps, the u.s. forces went across the border to get him. clearly the u.s. force hs to go across at least to get the body. that does mean there will be a reaction in pakistan.

tavis: richard clark, i appreciate your insights. up next, actress loretta devine. please welcome our friend to this program. the talented actress has enjoyed success on broadway and television, including her role on great's anatomy. catch her in the ensembles cast. here is a preview. >> hello. the is nice to finally meet you. >> i am sorry, i did not think a handshake expressed of the moment. i like to hug. >> he certainly raise her whole wonderful daughter. >> i wish i could say the same about you and your daughter. i said that the wrong way. i wish i had met her earlier, before now. tavis: ouch. i guess that gives us some insight as to who your character is. tell me more. >> i am the mother of the broom and i am not pleased with the bride bb. she has not come across well to me. they are talking about going to china, and that may have to break this wedding up for real. >> there is a class issue at play here. >> it turns out that the family is a very wealthy family with a french background. i think they feel that they are better than i am, so when i take my family,

let them. >> suarez: ron, you heard richard clarke mention elvis sightings. did it seem there was even much pushback on this story. a sizable number of people who were doubting, in fact, that osama bin laden was dead and that these photos were a necessary antidote to that? >> well, i don't think there's such a weight of pressure that that drove any element of this decision. i think dick is right. there are always going to be conspiracy theorists out there and that shouldn't necessarily drive a decision making. and i also agree you don't want to create the mythology of a martyr here. w bin laden. and i think images have a way of doing that. i just worry that the images are going to get out anyway and perhaps one way of handling this is to control the types of image. the way it gets out. the white house the torn on this though, because in in m ways the messages coming out of the white house, the images that came out, for example, in the iraqi context, were often done either by cabinet officials or in the field. you recall the zarqawi pictures that were done act

. >> want to bring if richard clark. i want to begin in 1998. you were there this the national security council when bill clinton said osama bin laden was public enemy number one back then. how gratifying it must have been for you to get the word yesterday. >> it's gratifying. we have to put the emotion aside and think about what it means for american security. and it doesn't mean that much for american security. it makes us feel good. there's a sense of closure, a sense of justice. a propaganda victory. but the organization, the network of organizations that he spawned is out there. and many of them are still quite healthy. many of them are training people to attack western interests, including american interests. >> we're about to hit a computer hard stop. please stand by. i have a lot more questions for you on the threat that the united states faces now and what they're danger in the national security council today to combat that threat. please stand by. >>> when we come back, we'll have much more. osama bin laden has been killed. celebration

. >> reporter: richard clarke served three presidents in the white house as a counter-terrorism professional. he knows what it takes. >> i think presidents make these decisions best when they ask a lot of questions. when they know the people who are making the calls, but that's not enough. they go beyond that and they ask, what if? how do you know? double check, go back, do it again. >> reporter: this time, for president obama, history weighed on his decision, because other presidents have made similar bold calls and reaped calamity instead of cheers. somalia, 1993. u.s. special forces conduct a raid on the hideout of a powerful militia leader. it all goes terribly wrong. two helicopters are shot down by rocket-propelled grenades. the bodies of several soldiers are dragged through the streets by mobs. 19 americans are killed. >> that was a terrible day. and bill clinton said, look, we are not going to cut and run. but we're also not going to have a witch hunt. not now. right now, nobody's getting fired, nobody's quitting. and we're not cutting and running. he was the most steely eyed, most d

clarke he said it once bush came into office there's nothing actually he could have done to put in place to probably stop the terrorist action from happening i think testified before congress but my larger point is that what he wanted to pakistan that was actually a very bush might like move didn't notify the pakistanis it took a unilateral action to go in there and that's why i for eyes yes you are depleted uranium on the ground here we've been as though he didn't ask the u.n. he didn't ask nato he went in did it good for obama he deserves credit for that courageous. but you know what kind of is a what you not something you would think he would have got you know and it's continued to threaten the bush administration's policy so absolutely everybody gets credit. well why not i think you know because argument against because he's. been eligible to run his reelection he's. even he's going to get you know he came out here to give a speech he said i don't know where he is i don't frankly care and in two thousand and five he disbanded the bin laden hunting unit that bill clinton put together

they demoted, they ignored richard clarke. you know, we know what happened. so, i'm not going to say that 9/11 could have been prevented. no one can say that. but it is sort of incon throw versible to me that if they had maintained that same focus, that clinton acquired, sadly, through tragedy, the first bomb and the "cole" bombing, et cetera,ing if they had kept his focus, things might have turned out very differently, we might not have had to have two unnecessary wars. so i think we have to look back. >> and let me add one last thing here, when they gave him the warning that al qaeda was going to attack, he said, okay, you've covered your ass, now go home that guy wants credit? >> went on vacation. >> swatted flies. went on vacation. >> i remember that yeah. >> joan walsh, thank you so much for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >>> now, we have been talking throughout the show about the pivot points we have reached as a result of bin laden's death. one of the biggest questions is whether torture did or did not work in this situation and what that means g

however, richard clarke is correct when he says that al qaeda is still the danger. al qaeda's affiliate's remain somewhat strong, a small but dedicated cadre of supporters throughout not just the arabic- speaking world, but europe and indonesia, maybe. these groups maintain operational capability that we shouldn't underestimate. host: michigan, richard joins us. republican line. caller: good morning. i've got a question for your guest. he has been over there in the arab countries and he was in the army and everything else, so he surely knows that bin laden died in 2001 and that this whole thing is just an incredible propaganda stunt. the media is complicit in it. it is time for america to start seeing through this stuff. i wish he would stand up right now and be a patriot and say, " hey, man, you are being lied to. this guy was murdered. ben is yo -- benazir bhutto, before she was murdered, and we allowed that to happen because we supported the other guy. guest: there will be reversed not just in the arabic-speaking world, but also in the in the state's -- and elsew

however, richard clarke is correct when he says that al qaeda is still the danger. al qaeda's affiliate's remain somewhat strong, a small but dedicated cadre of supporters throughout not just the arabic- speaking world, but europe and indonesia, maybe. these groups maintain operational capability that we shouldn't underestimate. host: michigan, richard joins us. republican line. caller: good morning. i've got a question for your guest. he has been over there in the arab countries and he was in the army and everything else, so he surely knows that bin laden died in 2001 and that this whole thing is just an incredible propaganda stunt. the media is complicit in it. it is time for america to start seeing through this stuff. i wish he would stand up right now and be a patriot and say, " hey, man, you are being lied to. this guy was murdered. ben is yo -- benazir bhutto, before she was murdered, and we allowed that to happen because we supported the other guy. guest: there will be reversed not just in the arabic-speaking world, but also in the in the state's -- and elsew

when i spoke to richard clarke, the count are terrorism advisor for two presidents. he said i'm obviously thrilled by bin laden's death, but i'm worried america is going to use this as an excuse to lower its guards, maybe we don't have to spend what we are spending on the departments of homeland security and maybe we can afford to cut back here and there. that's when you get sloppy. that's when vigilence flags and that's when the nation become vulnerable. martha: i sight as finishing a piece of business with usama bin laden. the networks -- its will be interesting to see how much attention he was getting for this rail, blowing up the railway idea he apparent plirn penciled down and handed to somebody. but it inspires the next guy. >> al qaeda is not dismantled. and that's the goal. i take a slightly more optimistic take on this. because of what happened in egypt, tunisia, the young people, the rise and modernity in these arab states is a promising sign that this will not and perpetual war. it's related to a time and place. martha: when you look at death of bin laden

caller: the first thing that i thought about was richard clarke when i heard this. the next thing that i thought about was bush on vacation. that i thought about "the new york times" getting their war. and that i thought about michael hayden getting his picture taken, thinking that when we saw his face -- no enemies, no medals. we have managed to transition our military industrial complex from the cold war into a new war so that we can never give it up. host: illinois, you are next. caller: the only question that i really have is why do they only have a body? i do cannot produce a body? that is ridiculous to say that. especially if it is out of respect for islamic people. that is just a joke. they probably do not appreciate his being murdered, ludlow being buried quickly enough. also, your last guest -- let alone being marred -- let alone being buried quickly enough. also, your last guest, saying their successes are not made public, why is it that there are no cameras on any of these people? you see the video from aljazeera, it is all grainy and pixilated. what is d

my last thought is, you need to get richard clark on there. when the bush administration came in there, they came in and reshuffled the effort to get the bin laden, that was just before 9/11. i am tired of hearing about all of this propaganda stuff that is going on, conspiracy theories. the media and vested interests are whipping up disrespect and doubt for the president. he is a great man. do not release these pictures. you will kill american soldiers if you do. host: "the new york times." on tuesday, the house voted to eliminate mandatory financing to set up health benefits exchanges under the health care law. it began debate on other bills to be voted on today. st. paul, minnesota. ben is an independent. what do you think about this, released the photo? caller: i think there should not release the voters. the world does not need to see that. our president has done so much work try to get the situation under control. i think he has been doing a great job with what he has been handed to in since the people in the world by showing we do not ha