. >> heinrich himmler had ambitions to run all of the secret police operations throughout germany. he was a fairly mundane human being, an evil human being. >> how did you find out how evil he was? >> history tells us that. during this time, no one knew exactly how awful was going to be. one has to be very careful. in my book, himmler plays a fairly mild, fairly minimal role because he does not take promise in berlin until the march of 1934. himmler, the gestapo after that, the role in the holocaust, that is all known and obvious. at this time, however, he was considered a rather mundane individual, always the same kind of bland appearance. he looked more like a schoolteacher then this evil police agent. >> hermann goring was very fat. he was a large man. he was a former world war i flying ace. he was considered one of the betterment of the regime. -- better men of the regime. it was more of a relative thing at that time. it was relative to hitler. people could withstand goring much more readily. it was found to be much more reasonable and rational at first. goring seemed to be a f