so how can i put that to irs agents? there's a certain logic to that until you analyze what is going on. the park rangers are not bringing in the money for the irs. that political logic unfortunately has gone on for the last 10 years. so until somebody steps up and really provides leadership to change that, i'm afraid it is not going to change. >> it is not just for auditors and agents but also, there is a lot that can be done with technology and we did make a lot of progress and there is much more that can be done. there is very little money available at times. >> here's a good follow-up. how much revenue per hour does an irs auditor have to make in order to break even? >> well, if you want to look at it on an average basis, the irs brings in actual enforcement revenue and the budget is about 10 billion. that, however, is not really a good way to look at it. because if you just look at it that way, you would be a lot more efficient to send notices of her grandmother for $100 in interest that she didn't pay. she will pro

irs. this is a culture of intimidation. >> chris: the president promises to fix the problem as the white house goes into damage control and congressional investigations gear up. >> why did you mislead congress and the american people on this? >> mr. chairman, i did not mislead congress nor the american people. >> chris: we will talk with a member of the president's inner circle senior advisor dan pfeiffer and leading republican and member of the first committee to probe the irs scandal, congressman paul ryan. what does this crisis of confidence mean for the president's big government agenda? we he will ask our sunday panel about the storm clouds of distrust gathering over the white house. all right now on "fox news sunday." >> chris: and hello again from fox news in washington. someone described it as hell week for the white house as the president and top advisors had to confront three major scandals, try to limit the damage to the administration, and to pursue mr. obama's second term agen

the irs. >> in addition to making sure that we've got a new acting director there we are going to make sure we gather up the facts and hold accountable anybody who was involved in this. >> the scandal already had another casualty. the irs announced yesterday joseph grant the commissioner who oversaw the tax-exempt division will retire in early june. just how rough has this week been for the president? consider this question from a reporter. >> how do you feel about comparisons by some of your critics of this week's scandals to those that happened under the nixon administration? >> well, you know, i'll let you guys engage in those comparisons. >> as you can see, white house desperately trying to get their arms around all of this and all of these controversies but the irs is the one they're most nervous about and the one that congress is most interested in investigating. in fact dave camp is beginning to speak. >> the liberty upon which this country was founded. the blatant disregard with which

she reached out to the irs on my behalf. >> greta: and what did the irs say? >> nothing. they denied they asked about individuals within these groups despite having a copy of that letter included in the query. >> greta: did you say, quit lying to me, i'm reading number 26, i got the questionnaire, the goods on you, you're lying? >> we tried. typical red tape there. at that point i wasn't able to get any farther because apparently i didn't have standing, because the letter wasn't addressed to me, despite having my name included within this question. >> greta: well, i have a copy of another letter, from lois g.lerner, the director of exempt organizations, dated may 14, 2012, to the congresswoman, who says the reason they are not going to tell you about is because of taxpayer privacy provisions. they think they're going to protect you and i guess the tea party group in liberty township by not telling you why your name showed up on their questionnaire, right? >> that's fascinating. absolutely right. >> greta: let me ask you something, why would the irs be interested in you? e

why didn't somebody at the irs or did somebody at the irs think about this and try to do something about it? >> i think, sir when we have an exam program underway we would like to walk you through. we have the determination letter process. you shouldn't assume that all of the cases in the determination process that we're talking about are of one -- . >> okay. let me ask the --let go beyond the assumption. to what degree are there other cases that you're irs is looking at in addition to those we identified in the report? >> i have to come back to you on that, sir. i don't know -- i don't have a sense. >> you don't have a sense. >> i believe there is fief toy 100. i could be wrong. rather than throw a number out, let us come back. >> okay. mr. schulman, what is your sense? >> i haven't been at the irs for six -- . >> when you're commissioner. these comfort letters, on your watch. >> my sense is very similar to mr. miller's there's a examination underway. there's -- at least was underway. that groups were being looked at in these cases being worked. >> all right. >> did it come to your mind

we are ending the week hot on the irs. the president is not apologizing when it comes to the department of justice investigation. i want to play just a small part of what the president had to say. take a look. >> u.s. national security is dependent on those folks being able to operate with confidence that folks back home have their backs. so they are not just left out there high and dry. and potentially put in even more danger than they may already be. and so i make no apologies and i don't think the american people would expect me as commander in chief not to be concerned about information that might compromise their missions or might get them killed. >> making no apologies when it comes to security in special record to the a.p. investigation and how they were trying to sure up leaks within the administration. is it your thought that the seriousness or the aggression is what we need to look at. >> i think it is interesting with benghazi and the irs the administration can say that it's separate from the white house. obama'

the irs agents did nothing wrong. they were simply trying to enforce the law as the irs has understood it since 1959. i have been telling you all week that the irs is wrong about their interpretation of the law, an interpretation that they introduced in 1959, but it is not the fault of anyone working in the irs today. it is now very clear that whoo i've been saying about this is getting through to the white house and we'll have more about that later when i will show you more of exactly how the irs took a wrong turn under president eisenhower and has been on the wrong road on this one ever since. krystal ball, my concern is the concern of washington in this segment, how is the president doing in his management of what i think are the faux scandals. >> i think you're doing an excellent job of separating the perception and what the media wants to write and the reality of the nonscandals. i think the president has done actually a very good job. he went out today, he finally, i don't know why he didn't release the benghazi

if you pay taxes, , you know abt the irs, and posbly the irs is a bit scary to you. the next guess we have is now lou dobbs. you listened to this four minutes conversaon for a president. what did you make of it? >> straightforward as you might expect, the president went on national television to tell us he is firing a guy who deserves to be fired, phaps more. i don't know. it isn't a decision that is going to resonate or stall h the internal renue service managed to get into the business of creating enemies and targeting conservatives in this country and this president did not speak out against the very atmosphere that had been created wi the internal revenue service. th is a president who is trying to save his posterior, and it is clearly the principal effort and it is also very clear that this president had something of an awakening over the course of the past 24 hours because we saw jay carney and the president talk about we had to find out re, they cap using the hypotheticals the irs had already admitted these egregio offenses phaps, criminal acts. gerri: it has

that was never a question. >> greta: do you feel intimidated by the irs? worry about the the irs? >> absolutely. we a very strong tea party. we have some great worker bees in our tea party and we are effective and know that the politicians have taken notice of northeast tarrant tea party. at the same time, we are just normal people. 90% probably of your viewers, like i'm a stay at home mom. i'm not a cpa or tax attorney or anything like that. i'm not familiar with all of the tons of questions and or the regulations that go with having a tax exempt status. so when you get a letter that says from the irs what is your involvement with verify the recall you immediately start thinking whoa, wait a minute, did i do something i wasn't supposed to do? am i not allowed to be involve with this group? have i ruined everything for this group that we put together and worked so hard to build? it is paralyzing. it makes you think okay i'm just going to back off and we will ignore the whole tax exempt thing and give up. if is wasn't for jay sekulow that is what we would have done. >> greta: julie

the irs changed the law. the irs took a hard, clear word like exclusively, a word with legal meaning, and changed it to the soft word primarily that means nothing. left it open to irs agents then to determine if your organization was primarily concerned with the promotion of social welfare. and then in 2010 there's suddenly a flood of organizations applying for tax exempt status, saying they are primarily for the promotion of social welfare, and their titles include the words tea party. what planet do you have to be from to know that tea party organizations are not operated exclusively for promotion of social welfare as the words of the law require, and what planet do you have to be from to know that tea party organizations are not even, quote, primarily to further the common good and general welfare, which is the irs scandalous interpretation of the words exclusively for the promotion of social welfare. tea party organizations are primarily, and many of them exclusively, for the promotion of republican polit

see people beyond the irs, that could be anyone up the chain of the irs? >> it's very could be, but we have no evidence thus far that it was beyond begin the people, the determination skimming. >> so in other words, you simply have the statements of those who are engaging in the context saying they were not medically motivated? >> that is correct, sir. >> and based on that statement come and save is not under oath, you reach the conclusion that there was no political motivation? eddie reese a conclusion to their was none or you haven't found? >> it's the latter, that we have not found any. >> it seems to me that it's almost unbelievable to look at what's happening and then say well, there is no political motivation. how could an agency with the power that the internal revenue service has engage in this kind of conduct and it not be politically motivated? you know, i think most people in the united states have a very quick and intuitive understanding of the reason that these revelations are so concerning to the country. as you look at the internal revenue a

>> well d on the irs stuff and all the rest? >> on the irs, feel like claude raineys. i'm shocked that thers would goo after people whose political views are not to their liking. on the issue of benghazi i'm deeply distressed and really stubbed when the president again today in this press conference repeated what is patent lie untree, and that is he keeps saying, as he did in the debate with mitt romney, he called the attack on benghazi a terrorist attack on that morning, and when in fact what he said was, no act of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, and that very night, he was on "60 minutes," and steve croft, said, mr. president you avowedded using the word terrorism in connection with the attack. do you believe this is a terrorist attack? obama: well, it's too early to know how this came about. what group was involved, but obviously it was an attack on americans. on letterman, few days later, said, was there -- what happens sneer the president says, here's what happened you've head a video released by somebody who lives here, sort of a shadowy

it is not just the irs. it is nlrb went off boeing for moving their facilities from washington state and south carolina. there will be other cases i will talk about in days to come. there is connection they have create adult turf intimidation where this type of behavior is rewarded, modeled and quite frankly in my opinion encouraged. >> they're on offense on this. and as i said they want to distance themselves from this act. they made sure the acting head of the irs resigned. what are you going to do in your capacity to try to prove that there is a connection goes higher up the food chain on this issue while they're trying to make sure ifb believes there is absolutely not? what will you do to try t prove that? >> number one i will continue to talk about the culture of intimidation. how this white house and administration love to demonizes their opponents. they're not contents to debating the merits of issue. they want to create that anyone who disagrees with them is a bad person. how that culture of intimida

interference in the irs. i will take every step that i can to make sure that the management structure and the way the irs conducts its business is set up in a way to prevent this from happening in the future. i have already had that conversation with the new acting commissioner who takes over tomorrow. he has a very short time to identify who should be accountable, how to get to the bottom of how the management and communication systems broke down, and to look systemically and what other steps need to be taken. i will not cross that line into the administration of the tax system because the cure could be worse than the disease. we need to make sure there's no political involvement of the administration and the management of the irs is the responsibility of the treasury secretary. it has to be within the irs and apart from politics. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. one of the issues raised by the report is the systemic risk potentially caused by the default of relying on -- what specific policy or regulat

the irs went after small tea party groups. karl rove said that he's using these to change the outcome of the next election. >> two scandals. congressman price, you asked that question about whether the so-called targeting was illegal, have you seen any evidence that a crime was committed? >> we don't know yet as senator portman said. this is really chilling stuff, george. what was the content of their prayer, prayers, to determine whether or not to give them tax-exempt status? or what books they were riding. this is just the beginning. what senator portman started with it, the report was an audit not an investigation. this is just the beginning of to process, we need to get to the bottom of this. who made those decisions. and hold them to account. >> do you think a special counsel is needed as well? >> i think it's premature to determine that. i believe the committees in the house and senate need to continue their investigation and who made these decisions. they don't make those kind of decisions. you know that. the american p

: and a former irs commissioner calling the irs failures catastrophic. mike everson ran the irs under president bush. he joins us. nice to see you, sir. >> thanks for having me, greta. >> greta: what we have been talking about all day long is the number of visits that mr. shulman as head of the irs made to the white house, a number of visits. how many visits did you make to the white house when you were commissioner? >> i don't have an exact figure in mind. last year when i testified before the same house committee chaired by mr. issa was that to my recollection i only went over there once to discuss policy matters on an interagency basis. what i was getting to at the time, greta, i was concerned about the major role that the service plays in the affordable care act and the fact that it could potentially compromise the independence of the agency when you have the commissioner and his subordinates having to meet on a regular basis with officials over in that part of the government. >> greta: all right. so the fact that mr. shulman met 118 times at least t

what is your irs horror story? tweet me at judge jeanine or facebook me we might even read your answer later in the show. stay with us. why are twice as many people choosing verizon over any other carrier? many choose us because we have the largest 4glte network. others, because of our reputation for reliability. or maybe it's because we've received jd power and associates' customer service award 4x in a row. in the end, there are countless reasons. but one choi. and didn't know where to start. used a contractor before at angie's list, you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. no company can pay to be on angie's list, so you can trust what you're reading. angie's list is like having thousands of close neighbors where i can go ask for personal recommendations. that's the idea. before you have any work done, check ane's list. from roofers to plumbers to dentists and more, angie's list -- reviews you can trust. i love you, angie. sorry, honey. we don't let freque

but the misuse of the irs. the irs, whether you like them or not, whatever your position may be, they have to be sackery sank. there has to be some confidence immediately. not some long, drawn-out hearing but a focused investigation by special counsel, free of conflicts, in order to restore the confidence people have. otherwise tax code doesn't work. >> 16,000 irs agents coming. did you know that? >> oh, yeah. >> 16,000. >> you're going to see that on campaign posters and campaign ads. look, republicans have struggled for so long to come up with an argument that makes sense and now they can say the irs is dysfunctional, it's playing politics. >> and they won't be even-handed. you're asking the irs to regulate obamacare, tax hikes, and mandates, which could mean regulating the very people they were just attacking and coming after. in other words, tea party groups -- guys -- might not want to pay the tax. are they going to be fair-mindeded? do we think the irs after what they have done has a chance? >> not in the

you would expect someone -- are there just two people at the irs political appointees, but the irs report seems to finger other people inside management at a lower level. now, one thing we do know is that when there was another scandal inside a government agency earlier in the administration, at the gsa, people did lose their jobs. so we expect, and the indications have been there will be swift and serious action. we'll look for it, maybe as soon as overnight, wolf. >> really? that quickly? >> i don't know. we're just looking to see. we'll stand by. >> stand by, as we always do. thanks very much, jessica. the other major story, dogging the white house right now, the controversy over those talking points about the benghazi terror attack last september 11th. our chief national correspondent john king has been looking into all of this for us. so what's the danger here, if there is one, for the obama white house? >> wolf, we covered the white house together for a long time. yes, it's only may 2013, but 2014, the six-year presidential itch election, what they call it. you have benghazi, the bl

>> which irs scandal? >> i should not be asked about that. >> i am not a part of that not today. >> when are you a part of it? >> next year. >> the irs is taking advantage of conservatives. >> the government has too much power and has run a muck. >> it's a scandal type of deal with tea party affiliate. >> it has been a pretty big part of the news this week. how do you feel about not knowing about it? >> i feel kind of like i am unb under a rock. >> you feel bad you don't know about if? >> i do. i feel even worse. >> all i do is work and eat and go to the gym. >> what are you doing lately that you don't know who the vice president was? >> we are both college students. >> what college do you go to? >> cal berkeley. >> that's a pretty hard school to get into, right? >> it is, definitely. >> do you think you have to know who the vice president is in order to go to cal berkeley? >> probably, yeah. >> there's no question we the people are becoming distracted. i write about that in my new book. the machines are t

shulman. >> sure, during my time at the irs i believed and i articulated that the irs needed to be a nonpolitical, nonpartisan-- >> you may have articulated that, but how did this happen? >> i think that there-- >> i don't want to take it away during fireworks, something happened there which is worthy of comment. senator backus was asking repeatedly what happened, when did you know about this and mr. miller replied, i knew about this in may, 2012, which judge, is what, five months before the election, but nothing came out publicly. >> and the prime campaign spending season when these tax exempt organizations would want to be spending-- >> gathering tax exempt dollars on spending it on campaign issues, they were unable to do so and we didn't know about it and the president didn't know about it and these guys said, keep it up, wait until after election. stuart: what did mr. miller do? there was training of workers and there were work shops he says. >> typical government response. stuart: outrageous. stuart: let's go back to the hearing, i don't want to miss anything. >> and i don't thi

irs in the tresry want it. if i had to make a wild guess without knowing anything, you will see him take greater actions, the you dig into it. so that's one possibility. >> yeah, ayman, no surprise, a lot of lawmakers out there are call, for heads to rom on this. >> reporter: that's right, mellissa. this administration has been on its heels as far as scandal. we do know what the speaker of the house said should happen. take a listen to john boehner earlier. >> my question isn't about who's going to resign. my question is, who's going to jail over this scandal? >> and, obviously, mellissa, who is going to jail is a very tough question to ask. we know eric holder, the attorney general says he has oldered a department of justice and fbi investigation into this irs situation. he testified four hours on capitol hill today facing a barrage of questions that got very testy today with arguments back and forth over a range of issues including this irs investigation. where that investigation will go is unclear at this po

my loser has got to be the irs. you couldn't get any worse for them and then they have this brutal hearing on capitol hill today. they can't catch a break. >> bret: quickly steve? >> overcomplicating this. the winners is any republican thinking for running for irs 2014 and 2016. the loser clearly if ever there was a week he was a loser that is barack obama. >> bret: that is it for the panel. literal efforts to find clues about the 2016 presidential race. [ male announcer ] running out of steam? ♪ now you can give yourself a kick in the rear! v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle. this tree has deep roots, strong limbs... things are pched and not pinned. nicely done. thboys love it. they are up there day and night. well that might be because y overlooked one thing... what? it looks into your neighbor's window. ohhh boy. hel-lo, mrs. kozlowski. boys? i'm gonna get the hose. [ dennis ] home insurance with do-it-yo

martha: hatch and 10 other republicans wrote to the irs last year demanding answers why the irs requested donor information from certain groups. senator hatch says it was just a broad explanation of a law allowing that request. bill: senator mcconnell asking for full transparency and asking for information from the white house. >> i'm asking them to make available everyone without restriction, who can answer what's been going on at irs, who knew about it, and how high it went. bill: senator mcconnell called for an end to the administration's stonewalling. martha: president obama respond to the report in a statement. earlier he said he hadn't had a chance to look it over. i have now had the opportunity to review the report on irs personnel who improperly targeted groups and the friengsd intolerable and inexcusable. the federal government must conduct itself in a way that's worthy of the public's truth and that's especially true of the irs and its employees must act with utmost integrity. all of this raises so many questions and the irs is about to become in many ways even more powerful whe

washington irs is exempt. they were supposed to be overseeing they talk about the gross management that went on here and the lack of oversight. i don't know whether that is going to be oversight problem, oversight and we blessed it problem. we need somebody that we can trust to look into it i will give you the last word. >> they are facing a laps judgment in crisis. they will not be able to get anything done if they don't figure out a way to pull all the way back, make it very open and transparent and answer the questions slowly and methodically. the irs was too quick to say it was only a couple of guys. suggest. somebody on top of it and appoint somebody independent on top of it. >> megyn: you are giving the conspiracy theirists validity. you are validating their concerns. i think of the t-shirt i have seen union line which reads what if glenn beck is right? >> yeah, even a broken clock is right twice a day. and now the conservatives have been proven right. i still -- i want to have confidence in government b

irs under fire over targeting of conservative groups. very same agency ramping up for the obamacare rollout. could the taxman play politics were your health insurance and up roar after reporters' phone records are seized. the administration says american lives were at risk but is that reason enough? >>> inexcusable and americans have a right to be angry about it and i am angry about that. i will not tolerated this behavior in any agency but especially in the irs given the power that it has and the reach that it has in all of our lives. >> paul: welcome to the journal editorial report. i'm paul gigot. that was president obama reacting to just one of the controversies swirling around his administration, news that the internal revenue service targeted conservative groups in an election season. it's part san behavior asking the agency and reinforce many people's fears about government running amok. joining us is dan henninger, kim strasel and colin levy. what were they looking for in these groups? >> they were looking for basically anything

irs. do these people not remember the nixon administration? i mean, one of the abuses of power was his use of the irs against his political enemies. clearly what the irs has said so far doesn't add up and an official on friday said, well, conservative groups were targeted but this wasn't politically motivated. huh? and then the acknowledgment that senior officials knew and did not inform congress. in fact, they told congress that the claims that conservative groups were being targeted were untrue. >> lisa, can i stop you right there? >> you bet. >> just on that point, mika, read this time line, if you will. >> okay. >> and then have lisa move on that because she was just about talking about what the -- what the irs said. >> here is the time line of the irs' position on the issue. according to reports obtained by the associated press, the findings seem to contradict public statements made by the agency's commissioner. in march of 2012, irs commissioner douglas schulman testified there absol

and allowing them to fix it especially in light of the advice given by the irs the irs revoked the tax exempt status. they have to reapply and pay. this is a nonprofit that has been around for 60 years. taxpayers should not be intimidated by the irs. the american people should not be afraid of the irs. we should be able to rely on advice that they provide and not be punished for it. i hope we will have an opportunity to work on this specific constituent issue. i want to turn to a topic of recent focus by the irs and that's obviously the question today and it's allegation that the political views caused them to become that focus. we all know that is outrageous is unacceptable and a thorough review will get us to the bottom of this. let's not forget something this morning. even with the egregious actions that have been acknowledged by the irs -- >> we are listening to a democrat from massachusetts talking about a problem his constituents have had showing the democrats want to show they are not going to be appallgists for the mess. i want to bring in politico reporters listening along wit

well, obviously, the irs statement says the role of the irs is to help american taxpayers understand and meet their tax responsibilities and enforce the law with integrity and fairness to all. clearly, your mission is not being met. mr. george, i guess i would just have one last question for mr. miller. when asked the truth, you know the truth and you have the legal responsibility to inform others of the truth, but you do not share it, what is that called? >> i always answer questions truthfully, mr. kemp. -- mr. camp. all right. madeeorge, were you ever aware of the alleged disclosure of the confidential tax structure of a private company? >> we have been alerted. >> you're personally made aware? >> in specific for in general? >> you specifically. into a specific company or general? >> there was a disclosure of taxpayer information. the confidential tax structure, any information, is considered confidential. taxas particularly the structure of a private company. were you made aware of that disclosure? >> we are made where public disclosure that is protected by title 26, yes. >> are

on the irs front, please explain why the irs director lied to the country in november. and how that department could get so out-of-control. it's a sad fact of life that politics almost always intrudes on leadership instead of really solving problems, president obama and most every other modern president trying to deflect them. mr. obama did that again today. when he put a happy face on the a.p. matter saying there should be new laws that protect reporters. >> to the extent that this case has prompted renewed interest about how do we strike that balance properly, and i think now is the time for us to go ahead and revisit that legislation. >> bill: see what i mean? so the president now wants more protections for reporters even has his administration rifles through their phone records. this is great, you know? all right. this has been a tough week for the obama administration and things will get even tougher if more whistleblowers emerge. big mistakes were made on be many fronts. almost obama must be very aggressive in complain explaining to the american public exactly wha

it is from the irs. i am being audited. (applause) well, duringed from's irs hearings texas congressman kevin bread spoke about a woman from his home state that applied for tax exempt status. >> she was visited bite fbi and domestic terrorism unit. her personal returns and business returns were audited by the irs. she received four fbi inquiries. and in her business received audit ands unscheduled audits and the commissioner on environmental quality and the a tf twice. and now this is a citizen, in a maul business woman who had never been audited by the irs or any of the agencies until show applied to you for tax exempt status for her tea party. the broader question here: is this still america? . is this government so drunk on power that it would turn its full force and full might to harass and intimidate and threaten an average american who only wants her voice and their voices heard? . >> well katherine is president of true the vote and the woman that congressman brady spoke about in the clip and joins us in a huckabee ex

. >> congress gearing up for another week of hearings on the irs scandal. >> hearings on the irs controversy. >> now in its fifth hour. >> so far we're not seeing this go high up the chain. >> the people i represent believe the federal government is out to get them. >> not a single application was denied. >> my question is who is going to jail over this scandal. >> i don't want to go to jail. >> there's not a lot here other than incompetence. >> plenty of drama. >> i am proud of the work in government. >> lois lerner, head of the tax exempt organization. >> members of the committee accused me of providing false information. >> chose to plead the fifth. >> you don't get to tell your side of the story, and not be subjected to cross examination. >> i have not broken any laws. >> that's not the way it works. >> i have not violated any irs rules or regulations. >> she waived her right to fifth amendment privilege. >> i have not done anything wrong. >> she waived her right to fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening statement. >> south carolina republican trey gowdy. >> that's not the way i

at the irs. has to stop somewhere. work beedone by anyone in the irs. i hope you understand it you are here today talking to us because we need to get to the bottom of this. we need to clean up and clear up some can go back to the business of making sure people respect the fact that we have a voluntary system of paying taxes. let me ask the question of mr. geroge. in your report you indicated, that "there appeared to be some confusion by the determination cnet specialist and applicants on one activities are allowed by internal revenue code or by 501(c)(4) organizations. tobelieve this could be due the lack of specific guidance of primary activity a a 501(c)(4) organization. they should have social welfare as the primary activity of their mission. however, the regulations do not define how to measure whether social welfare is an organization primary activity. the question, could some of these delays have been avoided if there were clear guidance on sex 501(c)(4) organizations -- on section 501(c)(4) organizations? the direct answer is yes. i should note

office at the irs. abc political director rick klein reports us. abc news broke that story tonight. who is she? >> sarah hall ingram and she was in charge of the whole commission that takes care of the tax exempt groups. they are the ones overseeing the whole division in cincinnati that was targeting tea partyers. she was in charge of it during the entire period. she's been in the new job about a week. the guy who took her place in that job, joseph grant, he's actually -- they announced his resignation today. he would be retiring in a couple weeks anyway and looks like he's taking the fall for something that happened on his watch. >> he was only there eight days and he's shoved out the door. this woman, now her job is very controversial, obviously under the spotlight with those groups being targeted. but now this other job, what's the other job she has being in charge of obamacare? >> obamacare has a lot of tax implications and the irs has opened up a new office just to make sure the implementation goes

the irs, very good. and you were appointed by then president bush, is that correct? >> yes, correct. >> and you state in your report that no one outside the irs was involved in this political targeting of not-for-profit organizations is that correct? >> that is the finding of this particular audit, sir. >> your audit, your findings are no outside groups were involved, correct. >> of this particular, yes, as of now that is our conclusion. >> mr. george, who was the last presidentially appointed irs commissioner. >> it was douglas shulman. >> douglas shulman, correct. >> yes, correct. >> appointed by then president george w. bush, is that correct? >> that's correct, sir. >> and mr. shulman was commissioner when these improper and outrage just activities that both sides of the aisle recognize as being outrage just and improper, when they occurred, is that correct? >> yes it is. >> mr. george, prior to commissioner shulman, the last political head or political appointee of the irs was mr. mark everson, is th

no one willscape the bony grip of the irs. i am the author of the bill it repeal obama care, that is an important bill and got through the house of representatives and i am chair of the tea party caucus. it was not only the tea party targeted by the obama administration through the irs, it was also christians and those who support israel and aspect- debt can conservatives and tea partiers. and this is an instance where political oppons of the administration are punished and the alloys of the administration were begin award and fast tracked. we should be wored. now a now national database is about to be create that hold our sensitive a personal information,our health care and the irs will be the enforcer of health care. it is reasonable to ask. >> and if i am not mistaken, they will decide how much companies are required to carry how much in health care. and they get fined with the enforce status and drive political groups o of business? >> you have stated the concerns of the american people. i used to work as attorney in the t

the irs coming back to the irs, the head of the union at the irs gives 99% of her campaign money to democrats. she openly criticizes the republican house for trying to reduce government spending and has specifically targeted tea party groups in her public comments. it's no wonder that the agents in the irs sort of get the message the president demonizes his opponent, the head of their union -- >> senator, that's a leap can you make as argument but you don't have fact to back it up. you can create -- i asked dan pfeiffer about it. can you talk about a culture. do you have any evidence that the president of the united states directed what you call a culture of intimidation at the irs to target political opponents? >> i don't think we know what the facts are. >> that hasn't stopped you from accusing. >> we're talking about an attitude the government knows best, the nanny state is here to tell us what to do and if you start criticizing, you get targeted. >> let me stop you for a minute. >> david, let me finish. david, let me finish. the investigation has just begun. i'm not going to reach a concl

democrats on capitol hill are also annoyed by the irs behavior and also the fact that the irs did not reveal to lawmakers what was going on. one key democrat says it is time for answers. >> there is serious mismanagement within the irs handling this. they had various, various structures that they used. they went from one to another to another. also they failed to keep the congress informed. >> reporter: mitch mcconnell says some of this behavior could be criminal. we will see. but he is promising that congress will fully investigate the matter. jenna? jenna: very serious accusations on those other organizations as well by mitch mcconnell. we'll look into that. what are we hearing from the tea party groups the specifically the ones that were targeted allegedly by the irs? >> reporter: they say they were asked questions by the irs that they felt that the irs had no business of knowing. for example, who their donors are. then there were those delay tactics. >> every two months we would call and kept saying oh, we're still reviewing your application. it was not until 14 months later that

gerri: if the irs asks questions that are legal, you don't say, hey, irs, that's illegal, do you? you are afraid they come after you with bariums blazing. >> this 1 the perfect storm for the irs. that's what they try to do, get you not to reply so you stop the application, or they get you to disclose everything they want and they have the information on people, but their option is really to get you not to respond at all. that's what they hope. we know clients who came and didn't want to miss with the irs. here was the perfect storm, the grassroots activists know each other, and they figured out they all got the same questions, and so together with groups like us who don't charge them, they fought back. gerri: you're truly an expert on the irs, and i wanted to outline for people a little bit here, hog the irs is and how intimidating it can be. the 2012 budget for the irs, 11.8 billion, bigger than the epa, the fbi, the fda. i mean, you name it. this is a big organization. with near 90 # ,000 employees. these people can come after you. >> right. gerri: talk to me a little about the

the irs. the richmond tea party said it was subject today a grueling application after applying for tax-exempt status. richmond tea party executive joins us. thanks for being here, larry. >> thanks for having us on. >> were you targeted? >> absolutely and it's creepy being on anybody's enemy's list, especially the government's. >> tonight the president admits it did happen. does that make you feel any better? >> it doesn't make us feel better but it makes us feel vindicated. a year or year and a half ago we were saying that we felt this was a problem. and i guess we get to say i told you so, but that doesn't really make us feel any better. >> you got a big questionnaire they made you fill it out. tell me the process. you applied for tax-exempt stat us and what happened? >> we applied for tax-exempt status in december of '09. we did not receive that until july of 2012. so just last summer. >> so it took two and a half years almost. >> yeah. >> two and a half years to get a questionnaire. what h

the biggest scandal is the irs. and seeing the attitude of the acting commissioner today didn't help at all. >> chris wallace, we'll be watching you on sunday. chris anchors fox news sunday. he'll be talking to the white house senior advisor, dan piperrer, about all of the different controversies facing the white house including the irs, the response to the terror attack in benghazi, and the feds keeping tabs on journalists-and also get gop reaction from paul ryan. that is this weekend on fox news sunday. >> much more on today's fiery irs hearing on capitol hill ahead, including a closer look at the woman whose office monitored tax exemptions during the conservative targeting now she runs the irs office responsible for enforcing president obama's healthcare law. plus, it's happened again. a third military official in charge of preventing sexual assaults, now under arrest. details on those charges he faces coming up next. before global opportunities were part of their investment sttegy... to the schools that gave the