today, the irs scandal. how far does it reach? >> it is inexcusable and americans are right to be angry about it and i'm angry about it. >> someone needs to be held responsible. someone needs to be in prison. someone needs to be prosecuted. >> this is not limited to the irs. this is a culture of intimidation. >> chris: the president promises to fix the problem as the white house goes into damage control and congressional investigations gear up. >> why did you mislead congress and the american people on this? >> mr. chairman, i did not mislead congress nor the american people. >> chris: we will talk with a member of the president's inner circle senior advisor dan pfeiffer and leading republican and member of the first committee to probe the irs scandal, congressman paul ryan. what does this crisis of confidence mean for the president's big government agenda? we he will ask our sunday panel about the storm clouds of distrust gathering over the white house. all right now on "fox news sunday." >> chris: and hello again from fox news i

>> where did z the buck stop at the irs? >> i think i said clearly that all of this happened on my watch. >> you said that. but you're -- you're dodging the question whether you did anything about it over money -- [inaudible] supreme court decision 501c4. >> i'm sorry. gtd. >> what is that? >> go ahead. >> i think i told you what i have to say. the irs is give a difficult task. my understanding is people on the job working on the task. i, as a matter of practice and policy, didn't reach down to the tax exempt government entities world to affect the cases. >> that's not the question i'm asking. you're answering a different question. the question asking is specific cases -- let me ask a different question. are you aware of the supreme court decision of the citizen united? >> yes. >> you were aware of it? and you aware of -- [inaudible] are you aware of -- . >> in a general sense i am. >> what is your understanding? >> my best understanding is that corporations and other entities can give money to political organizations. >> ar

>> the irs. the irs looked at the issue. >> what departments? >> would have been counsel -- i don't know it was an exempt -- i'm sorry sir. i am not able to answer with particularity there. >> were you ever made aware of the publication of the confidential 2008 donor list of the national organization for marriage, conservative tax-exempt organization? >> i was. >> when was that? >> that date i'll have to get back to you on but i remember the issue. >> how did you find out? >> i don't remember. might have been press. might have been somebody coming to us with a congressional complaint. >> when you learned of that publication, did you take any steps? >> i believe we made a referral, yes. >> at that time. and you are not sure when that referral was made? >> it would have been in the same time frame. >> shortly after you became aware of it? >> would have been. >> were you ever made aware of the irs league of confidential applications for the tax-exempt status of conservative groups to publica? >> i was. >> again, when were you made aware of that? >>

irs. >> that could be anyone up the chain of the irs? >> it in theory could be. we have no evidence thus far. >> in other words, you have simply the statements of those who were engaging in the conduct saying that they were not politically motivated. based on that, you reached the conclusion there was no motivation. that you haven't found it? >> it is the latter. that we have not found any. >> it seems to me that it is unbelievable to look at what has happened and say there is no political motivation here. how could an agency with the power that the internal revenue service has engage in this kind of conduct, and it not be politically motivated? i think that most people in the united states have a very quick and intuitive understanding of the reason that these revelations are so concerning to the country. if you look at the irs, more than perhaps any other agency of government, it has the capacity to be the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and executioner in ways that can devastate individuals, families, and businesses. americans underst

. >>> the irs scandal, the real scandal going on for decades, it has been going on longer than the irs workers who were caught up in this one have been alive. we're going to get to that coming up. and you'll dump your old broom. but don't worry, he'll find someone else. ♪ who's that lady? ♪ who's that lady? ♪ sexy lady ♪ who's that lady? [ female announcer ] swiffer sweeper's electrostatic dry cloths attract and lock dirt, dust, and hair on contact to clean 50% more than a broom. it's a difference you can feel. swiffer gives cleaning a whole new meaning. and now swiffer wet and dry refills are available with the fresh scent of gain. and now swiffer wet andnehey!r!ills [squeals] ♪ [ewh!] [baby crying] the great thing about a subaru is you don't have to put up with that new car smell for long. introducing the versatile, all-new subaru forester. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. [ male announcer ] we all have something neatly tucked away in the back of our mind. a secret hope. that thing we've always wanted to do. it's not about having dreams, it's about reaching them. â

by the irs. are they are already collecting these dollars. this is all money collected to pay for the healthcare law. and a when you see how they have been unobjective or select willed certain groups to target i think their integrity comes into question and i think if we give them this much control and this much power with the healthcare law i think that we should take a step back and reexamine. >> greta: i don't know what is going o the ground happen now this rather downfortunate for the obama administration that the irs is under fire. i'm he curious. is there any way that they can hire the new you people without getting the money from you and i don't see how the congress the house of representatives who just yesterday voted to repeal obamacare is going authorize the money. isn't that where we stand that there is not the money to do this anyway? >> the senate would have to agree with the house in repealing the bill and obama would have to sign. >> assume it doesn't get repealed but they don't ha

on the irs. is this a case where events tell you there is simply too much bureaucracy? we have to go to a flat tax and some voices say that tonight? >> they will specialize in that we need a simplified tax code a simplified tax system and that would make it tougher for bureaucrats to engage in thii type of misbehavior. gerri: if they are there they cannot engage in this behavior. great to hear your comments on this complicated topics. i want to return to rich edson. you were breaking out the many scandals that have broken this week. i don't think i have ever seen a week in my lifetime where there has been so many negative headlines for one president. what do you say? >> it is the amount that has happened so quickly that fact that ben gauzy has come to a head but especially in this administration we have not seen the white house with issues like this dealing with a bad economy and a story that came all politically here or there. but the dominant force in this president's white house has been a muc

>> well d on the irs stuff and all the rest? >> on the irs, feel like claude raineys. i'm shocked that thers would goo after people whose political views are not to their liking. on the issue of benghazi i'm deeply distressed and really stubbed when the president again today in this press conference repeated what is patent lie untree, and that is he keeps saying, as he did in the debate with mitt romney, he called the attack on benghazi a terrorist attack on that morning, and when in fact what he said was, no act of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, and that very night, he was on "60 minutes," and steve croft, said, mr. president you avowedded using the word terrorism in connection with the attack. do you believe this is a terrorist attack? obama: well, it's too early to know how this came about. what group was involved, but obviously it was an attack on americans. on letterman, few days later, said, was there -- what happens sneer the president says, here's what happened you've head a video released by somebody who lives here, sort of a shadowy

of the irs. i am the author of the bill it repeal obama care, that is an important bill and got through the house of representatives and i am chair of the tea party caucus. it was not only the tea party targeted by the obama administration through the irs, it was also christians and those who support israel and aspect- debt can conservatives and tea partiers. and this is an instance where political oppons of the administration are punished and the alloys of the administration were begin award and fast tracked. we should be wored. now a now national database is about to be create that hold our sensitive a personal information,our health care and the irs will be the enforcer of health care. it is reasonable to ask. >> and if i am not mistaken, they will decide how much companies are required to carry how much in health care. and they get fined with the enforce status and drive political groups o of business? >> you have stated the concerns of the american people. i used to work as attorney in the t

us the subsidies in the irs depend on the income being at a certain level and then the irs shares that with hhs and other agencies involve that might be involved with implementing it. it is a nightmare are when you look at the irs and what they can be capable of and obamacare opens the door so much wider for them. >> greta: we can agree they are not going to be looking and recording whether you got a colonoscopy or not. >> we don't know what it is going to lead to. >> greta: as it is written now a bill collector anded a best an organization to unwielding as to likely be incompetent and now might be corrupt at certain levels. >> obama has a committee decided what they will pay for. because money will increasingly run short they will be looking into whether things should be paid for. obamacare will tax you if you don't buy health insurance and it will tax you if you do buy certain levels as far as the expense. so i think it is going to affect almost every american from an expense standpoint but also additional vulnerability. i think businesses are seeing this as they get a grasp on what

irs was doing, the people at the irs, and the obama campaign? not the white house, the obama campaign. >> a great question, stuart. this committee and its companion committee in the house have the power of subpoena and the power of subpoena will presumably unearth such a communication or e-mail if it exists. stuart: they're going on recess for the summer. well, the white staff wouldn't go on recess, it would just take the chair of the committee to issue the subpoena, so, those subpoenas can go all summer and the response to the subpoenas can go all summer as well. stuart: okay, let me asks bring up, we've got a minute left and i want to bring up the issue of rosen, private e-mails, listened to looked at the justice department. >> what they did to james, is reprehensible and unlawful. a fbi agent told a federal judge that james broke the law by using a shrewd way to seduce information out of a person at the state department. even if james did that, and he can be very shrewd, it does not break the law for a reporter to ask a government official if

irs is going to trust the irs oversight of the president's health care plan? >> first of all, they have a part of the entire health care act and that oversight will be done by our respective committees as well as the labor committee. what's most important is not to have 37 votes in the house of representatives to repeal the president's health care law. 37 votes from stopping millions of young people on their parents' insurance. that didn't pursue any effort to improve health care in the nation. >> good attempt to change the subject. this is about trust. sarah hall ingram who was in charge of the tax-exempt division at the irs between 2009 and 2012 the exact time of this challenge and affront to the american people, is now in charge of instituting and determining whether or not the irs is doing the appropriate things as it relates to the president's health care law. >> do you think she has to go? >> step back until we get to the bottom of this. >> congressman rangel? >> no republican agenda instead to stop the president of the united states. there's no evidence

for the irs. people who are really angry at that point, shortly after, there was a columnist who wrote about things. he found me a great subject for his column. right after i got there, he wrote this column in which he reported in a rather deadpan fashion that my body had been found under four times that were labeled your irs taxpayer rights and that was about what it was for at that point in time. it was true that in the '90s, people were really mad at the irs. but the trouble really didn't start until 90s. if you go back to a longer timeframe, you find that in the 70s and early '80s, things were out of process. they respect how the government was doing their job. starting in the 80s, things started to go downhill. by the middle 90s, there were so many taxpayer complaints going into congress that by the time i made my courtesy visit for my confirmation hearing, most of the members of congress had a full-time staff person was doing nothing but fielding complaints. lamothe visible problems was that

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the affordable care act office is a big part of the irs. that's about 700 people directly working on the law. and then a whole bunch of people brought in for this. >> paul: they're going to collect a lot of data from different parts of the government, aren't they? a big new database? >> right. with the health and human services department, they're building something called the federal data hub, which is when they audit your health care to find out -- >> paul: just what we need, another federal data house. >> if you have the right kind of health care, they'll cross check that with social security, department of justice, homeland security, and so forth. it's really a huge information technology thing. >> paul: just so i understand, right now if i underpay my tax, the irs will say, you owe us x amount of dollars. if, for some reason i now apply for federal health insurance and i make a little bit more than what i'm supposed to, the irs will come in and be able to say, sorry, you don't qualify or sorry, you pay a fine, or sorry, you have to pay

by the irs. the irs said it couldn't find key files related to possible political manipulation of audits. all this very troubling, bill. bill: there are concerns, though, that the irs' planned expansion to accommodate its new responsibility for the affordable care act could be in danger. how is this working, doug? >> reporter: that's right. by the end of this year, the irs will be hiring 15,000 new agents to collect health information in accordance with provisions of the affordable care act. so already owns with americans' financial information, it will also be armed with americans' health information. we spoke to one tea party member who gave up her own quest to form a 501c4 after the irs threaten today examine her private e-mails, twitter accounts. she's deeply concerned about this expansion of irs power. >> my concern is four years after the irs has expanded to police the nation's health care law, how many stories of abuse are going to emerge from this and really, what will be the impact? >> r

see people beyond the irs, that could be anyone up the chain of the irs? >> it's very could be, but we have no evidence thus far that it was beyond begin the people, the determination skimming. >> so in other words, you simply have the statements of those who are engaging in the context saying they were not medically motivated? >> that is correct, sir. >> and based on that statement come and save is not under oath, you reach the conclusion that there was no political motivation? eddie reese a conclusion to their was none or you haven't found? >> it's the latter, that we have not found any. >> it seems to me that it's almost unbelievable to look at what's happening and then say well, there is no political motivation. how could an agency with the power that the internal revenue service has engage in this kind of conduct and it not be politically motivated? you know, i think most people in the united states have a very quick and intuitive understanding of the reason that these revelations are so concerning to the country. as you look at the internal revenue a

for the irs of? >> she held the division commissioner title. >> associate responsibly over much of the concerns and discussion that we're having today, is that correct? >> at the time she was division commission, yes. yes. >> which have known about this list of criteria that has been formally become had been formerly? >> i have no reason to believe that she would. >> that she would? >> yet, i have no reason to believe that she would. i don't think so. .. the context of the criteria listed what we are talking about today that the irs provided, quote, horrible service, unquote, correct? >> i think that's what you said earlier today. and the individual that was overseeing a portion of this and had responsibility for the provision of this, quote, horrible service, now sits over the entity at the irs that will determine whether or not people are complying with the rules of the griffin team, is that correct? so sarah in groome is not at the irs over control of the regulatory -- >> at most it was a period a

irs to the ap. as we watch today the outgoing irs chief on capitol hill facing really tough questions from both sides. i want to play congressman charlie rangel on the record earlier. >> people are losing confidence in our government and i hope that you feel the same sense to find out what caused this, how it could happen and help us to restore the confidence that americans should have in their government. >> so while everybody wants to get on the record as being tough on this and coming down hard on whoever it is that is responsible, does it seem that the democrats have the president's back? what advice would you give to those insiders who are looking to turn this ship around, to prove that the irs can be trusted under the obama administration to work fairly and efficiently? >> at the end of the day crisis is ultimately a challenge of whether you, your organization, your entity is trust worthy. and the only way you can begin to rebuild trust or demonstrate that you are trust worthy is by engaging i

by the irs. mr. miller, while you were appointed acting commissioner at the irs, you are a career civil servant. is that not the case? >> yes. >> you are not a political appointee. >> i am not. >> what i'm trying to basically the blanc is the notion or idea -- tryin gto debunk are the nonfactual statements by chair camp to link these candles to the white house or solely targeting of conservative groups -- link these scandals to white house. i asked the questions of ms. lerner last week as to whether or not the irs was investigating political not for profit organizations. she got involved after she was asked a question at a press event and that is simply understandable. what i also think is important, at least at this point in time, i would hope is in a bipartisan context because we want to find the facts. we want to find out who knew what and when and what steps were or were not taken. iwas just as outraged when was learned when she was asked the question why she did not tell congress. i asked he

the irs changed the law. the irs took a hard, clear word like exclusively, a word with legal meaning, and changed it to the soft word primarily that means nothing. left it open to irs agents then to determine if your organization was primarily concerned with the promotion of social welfare. and then in 2010 there's suddenly a flood of organizations applying for tax exempt status, saying they are primarily for the promotion of social welfare, and their titles include the words tea party. what planet do you have to be from to know that tea party organizations are not operated exclusively for promotion of social welfare as the words of the law require, and what planet do you have to be from to know that tea party organizations are not even, quote, primarily to further the common good and general welfare, which is the irs scandalous interpretation of the words exclusively for the promotion of social welfare. tea party organizations are primarily, and many of them exclusively, for the promotion of republican polit

my loser has got to be the irs. you couldn't get any worse for them and then they have this brutal hearing on capitol hill today. they can't catch a break. >> bret: quickly steve? >> overcomplicating this. the winners is any republican thinking for running for irs 2014 and 2016. the loser clearly if ever there was a week he was a loser that is barack obama. >> bret: that is it for the panel. literal efforts to find clues about the 2016 presidential race. [ male announcer ] running out of steam? ♪ now you can give yourself a kick in the rear! v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle. this tree has deep roots, strong limbs... things are pched and not pinned. nicely done. thboys love it. they are up there day and night. well that might be because y overlooked one thing... what? it looks into your neighbor's window. ohhh boy. hel-lo, mrs. kozlowski. boys? i'm gonna get the hose. [ dennis ] home insurance with do-it-yo

she reached out to the irs on my behalf. >> greta: and what did the irs say? >> nothing. they denied they asked about individuals within these groups despite having a copy of that letter included in the query. >> greta: did you say, quit lying to me, i'm reading number 26, i got the questionnaire, the goods on you, you're lying? >> we tried. typical red tape there. at that point i wasn't able to get any farther because apparently i didn't have standing, because the letter wasn't addressed to me, despite having my name included within this question. >> greta: well, i have a copy of another letter, from lois g.lerner, the director of exempt organizations, dated may 14, 2012, to the congresswoman, who says the reason they are not going to tell you about is because of taxpayer privacy provisions. they think they're going to protect you and i guess the tea party group in liberty township by not telling you why your name showed up on their questionnaire, right? >> that's fascinating. absolutely right. >> greta: let me ask you something, why would the irs be interested in you? e

the irs did. and it isn't pretty. our chief congressional correspondent dana bash is working the story for us. dana, i know you're going through the inspector general's report. it is very, very damning. >> it is. pages and pages of damning information, and analysis of what the irs did. the gist of it is that the inspector general says that inappropriate criteria to identify tea party and other groups were used. ineffective management at the irs, allowing this criteria to be in place for 18 months. and it resulted in substantial delays of applications, and allowed unnecessary requests to be issued. and this report, if you can believe it, it just part of the irs's troubles. never mind that the irs targeting tea party groups was inappropriate. the attorney general wants to know if it was criminal. >> i have ordered an investigation to be begun. the fbi is coordinating with the justice department to see if any laws were broken in connection with those matters related to the irs. i think as everyone ca

report on activities at the irs, house speaker john boehner is convinced this is criminal. >> the irs has admitted to targeting conservatives, even if the white house continues to be stuck on the word "if." now, my question isn't about who's going to resign. my question is, who's going to jail over this scandal? >> the inspector general blasted the irs for ineffective management, delaying the status of conservative groups seeking tax exempt status, and asking unnecessary questions, including the names of donors. the top democrat on the house ways and means committee, which is investigating, says it's time for heads to roll. >> several should be relieved of their responsibilities. the acting commissioner and the person who has been heading up the exempt organization portion, i think there's a need for new leadership there. so i called for relieving them of their responsibilities. >> today all 45 republican senators signed this letter demanding the obama administration fully comply with congressional investigation requests. ahead of the president's meeting with treasury officials, his s

everybody understands the power of the irs. when you get a letter from the irs, you know it is not happy news. you didn't win the lottery. it is bad news. and you know that they have the power. and everybody feels that. for the irs to so overtly abuse its power is really bad news. now, they want us to believe that a bunch of bureaucrats in cincinnati, a hot bed of radical leftism, got together and decided to target the right. that's not a plausible story. and we now know, it came into washington. obama was asked this morning at the press conference, did you not know about any of this before you heard about it on friday? did anybody in the white house not know about this? so he was asked about anybody. and he said, well, i personally hadn't heard about the i.g. report. >> yeah. let's run that down. >> why did he say i.g. report? >> let's run the sound bite. i want an answer to your question. i want you to answer your own question. >> i will speculate. >> here you go. >> can you assure the american people that nobody in the white

but the misuse of the irs. the irs, whether you like them or not, whatever your position may be, they have to be sackery sank. there has to be some confidence immediately. not some long, drawn-out hearing but a focused investigation by special counsel, free of conflicts, in order to restore the confidence people have. otherwise tax code doesn't work. >> 16,000 irs agents coming. did you know that? >> oh, yeah. >> 16,000. >> you're going to see that on campaign posters and campaign ads. look, republicans have struggled for so long to come up with an argument that makes sense and now they can say the irs is dysfunctional, it's playing politics. >> and they won't be even-handed. you're asking the irs to regulate obamacare, tax hikes, and mandates, which could mean regulating the very people they were just attacking and coming after. in other words, tea party groups -- guys -- might not want to pay the tax. are they going to be fair-mindeded? do we think the irs after what they have done has a chance? >> not in the

general exexclusively focused on the irs. >> over the irs, very good. and you were appointed by then be president bush, is that corrects. >> yes, correct. >> and you states in your report, that no one outside the irs was involved in this political targeting of not for profit organization. stuart: i just want to jump in here while they're talking about process and what exactly jay russell george does. lets me go back to the doctor's analysis with mr. miller for a moment. mr. miller, the outgoing acting irs guy, he denies targeting. and to some degree, russell george has backed him up by saying, there was no proof of political motivation. this is getting heated at this point with the irs guy kind of stonewalling. >> yes, and remember, this is all under oath. they are testifying in front of congress, so anything that's said could subsequently be proven false, they would be subjected to perjury. so, we will have to see how this shakes out. stuart: very interesting, charles. charles: i find miller having gravity for the situation and the hearings and sort of

the people at the irs who are like storm troopers. the irs is the most feared agency in the world next to maybe the kgb. and these are the people tasked with enforcing making sure that everyone has health insurance? it is a disaster. this woman got $103,000 in bow nesss. taxpayer funded money. was basically promoted and oversaw the targeting of conservative and religious groups and she is getting a promotion. you are telling me that no one know hass is going on here. >> mike: steven miller salt there with a straight face and said the reason this happened is they were just trying to be so efficient. >> hilarious. let's not forget, steven miller was fired. he is is gone. now, i underand it obama did not -- obama did not take him out to the middle of times square and flog him like people might want. i think this is a fair point when you apply for tax exempt status does that make you immediately above the law? can we not ask a question as to whether or not your application is, correct? i think that is what they were trying to do. did they

irs, and americans for tax reform did extensive research on the the tactics of the irs, and jennifer from americans for prosperity, which was targeted by the irs. jennifer, starting with you, how are you targeted? tell us your story? >> this was before i joined americans for prosperity, just a stay at home mother, pregnant with another baby, and i wanted to do what was right. my tea party group was large, and i couldn't run the money donations through the banking the. i was add viesed the irs would get me for that. i called groups, file, create an organization, and here they were getting targeted by the irs, and i got scared. when i reach out to the irs to understand, some the questions the other groups -- gerri: what were they asking? >> all out there now, and i have documents showing it. you know, send us your facebook pages, twitter pages. i said is that personal pages? they said everything. they want to know your personal relationships with politicians and political parties, and i asked what would happen if i don't send them? they said, look, it's considered perjury if you omit f

to abolish the irs, that's part of the approach to the investigation. >> and they have cut the irs hugely at a time when we're looking for money, trying to cut the deficit. you cut it from the people that collect the money. does that make any sense? >> yeah. they're the profit center over the federal government. >> precisely. >> joy, the other big piece that's lost, you don't even have to apply for 501(c)4 status, you can apply or you can just claim it. you can't just claim your passport, you have to apply for one. there's this big scandal that the republicans are saying happened here for something you don't even have to apply for. you can actually operate as a 501(c)4 if you're never approved by the irs. >> there are organizations now, tea party patriots, big tea party groups, if you scroll to the bottom of their web page, says their tax status is pending. they're functionally operating at c 4s without having that stamp of approval. you can go and ask the irs to do it but you don't necessarily have to. what's funnier, you worked in politics, any political consultant with two brain cells

he would have the irs would implement the i.g. recommendation, the inspector general report -- oh, really? huto do that anything. he promised to cooperate with congress in an investigation into the matter. mr. president, you had no choice. you were going to have to cough up your treasury secretary and key officials of the irs to testify before congress. so this was a nothing-burger. it was all about punishment r., trying to get ahead of a story he had been way behind on. i hold him responsible. in my column tomorrow, let's remember, senator baucus sends a letter in september of 2010 saying to the irs, it investigates these groups. by early 2012, chuck schumer of new york gets six other democratic senators to join him. he pressures congressman pete welsh of vermont to get a similar house letter, all saying you better do something. the president said that 501c 4 groups of the enemy of democracy. so there are more than lower-level groups responsible. >> i am sympathet toikt acting director. he came to the job in november and the pres

you start with the irs agents at the cincinnati office. the guys you first tried to put all the blame on. then you put them in the grand jury and you ask them under oath which supervisors directed them to withhold tax exempt status and investigate any one who might criticize your administration. you feds know how to do that. you do it all the time. and by the way, the system doesn't need to be fixed, your administration needs to be fixed. so if you want the truth, tell your director of the irs exempt division the learned lois lerner the one who says she is not good at math not to lie to congress, which she did when she said that her screening process was unbiased. when in truth, two years ago, she knew her agents were flagging all cases of any one who might criticize your administration. but, of course, mr. president, you will get to the bottom of this. >> he think we will be able to -- i think we will be able to figure out exactly what happened, who was involved, what went wrong and we are going to be able to implement steps to fix it. an

so the irs targets conservatives and now the doj is looking into why the irs did that and whether it may have committed a crime. the doj wide ranging secret the scandal that the doj is at the center of. it's accused of doing something wrong. he have to answer for that today although the attorney general yesterday defended that action. and he will also be asked about the handling of fbi intel in the run-up to the boston marathon bombings. keep in mind, we reported here first a couple of weeks ago that the doj and a magistrate judge effectively shut down the fbi's questioning of dzhokhar tsarnaev, the boston marathon bombing suspect just 16 hours into the questioning. the fbi said it wasn't done. why did they do that? eric holder has yet to explain that. he will be asked about it today. one thing to listen for. we are hearing new suggestions that the white house needs to appoint a special council to look into particular the irs scandal rather than leaving the doj in charge of an investigation that could eventually, no evidence of it right now, some are already suggesting and the mere p

the irs coming back to the irs, the head of the union at the irs gives 99% of her campaign money to democrats. she openly criticizes the republican house for trying to reduce government spending and has specifically targeted tea party groups in her public comments. it's no wonder that the agents in the irs sort of get the message the president demonizes his opponent, the head of their union -- >> senator, that's a leap can you make as argument but you don't have fact to back it up. you can create -- i asked dan pfeiffer about it. can you talk about a culture. do you have any evidence that the president of the united states directed what you call a culture of intimidation at the irs to target political opponents? >> i don't think we know what the facts are. >> that hasn't stopped you from accusing. >> we're talking about an attitude the government knows best, the nanny state is here to tell us what to do and if you start criticizing, you get targeted. >> let me stop you for a minute. >> david, let me finish. david, let me finish. the investigation has just begun. i'm not going to reach a concl

by the irs? >> reporter: they say they were asked questions by the irs that they felt that the irs had no business of knowing. for example, who their donors are. then there were those delay tactics. >> every two months we would call and kept saying oh, we're still reviewing your application. it was not until 14 months later that i get a letter in the mail, with 80 questionnaire, 80 questions on this pamphlet and saying that they couldn't process our application until those questions were answered. >> reporter: there are many lawmakers up there on capitol hill who feel like these delay tactics for these small groups that wanted to express whatever opinion they have may have in effect killed them. jenna. jenna: interesting. we'll speak to congressman levin who you also interviewed, mike. we saw the sound. he has been part of the house ways and means committee that has been investigating this for two years. it will be interesting to hear what he has to say later on in the program. back to you of cou

the affordable care act is big part of the irs. that is about 700 people directly working on it and whole bunch of people brought in. >> paul: they are going to connect data from different parts of the government, big new database? >> right with the hhs they are building something they are building something called the federal data hub. >> paul: that is what we need. [ laughter ] >> if you have the right healthy care and cross that with homeland security and huge information technology. >> paul: just so i understand. if i under pay my taxes, i say you owe us "x" amount of dollars. now if i apply for federal health insurance and i make a little more than what i'm supposed to, irs will be able to say, you don't qualify, so you pay a fine, sorry, you have to pay "x" dollars? >> right. what they will be looking at do you have the right kind of health care. if you don't, you pay a penalty. they will be calculated ago subsidy and everybody in the health care industry, will be reporting information into the data hub that will cross-check

investigating the irs. nor orrin hatch -- senator orrin hatch says the power of the irs should not be taken lightly. >> at no point in time did anyone in the irs think it was important to set the record straight. no single agency in government has the power the irs has. they can destroy people. this is an agency that can create more fear in the hearts of people than any other agency. martha: hatch and 10 other republicans wrote to the irs last year demanding answers why the irs requested donor information from certain groups. senator hatch says it was just a broad explanation of a law allowing that request. bill: senator mcconnell asking for full transparency and asking for information from the white house. >> i'm asking them to make available everyone without restriction, who can answer what's been going on at irs, who knew about it, and how high it went. bill: senator mcconnell called for an end to the administration's stonewalling. martha: president obama respond to the report in a statement. earlier he

office at the irs. abc political director rick klein reports us. abc news broke that story tonight. who is she? >> sarah hall ingram and she was in charge of the whole commission that takes care of the tax exempt groups. they are the ones overseeing the whole division in cincinnati that was targeting tea partyers. she was in charge of it during the entire period. she's been in the new job about a week. the guy who took her place in that job, joseph grant, he's actually -- they announced his resignation today. he would be retiring in a couple weeks anyway and looks like he's taking the fall for something that happened on his watch. >> he was only there eight days and he's shoved out the door. this woman, now her job is very controversial, obviously under the spotlight with those groups being targeted. but now this other job, what's the other job she has being in charge of obamacare? >> obamacare has a lot of tax implications and the irs has opened up a new office just to make sure the implementation goes