steve shapiro, a councilmember. if you could just expound a bit on the difficulties demonstrated in the afghanistan operation by conflicting rules of engagement and caveated forces. i think that's a complex issue i don't get to hear enough about. >> just on that, i mean, every operation has -- every country that operates within a coalition perspective will have its own specific issues of concern. we have caveats, the united states. the issue is whether those caveats affect the operational effect of the force. at least since i was involved in this operation since 2009, the answer is no, that most of the caveats that really did have an operational impact were removed, were dropped in one way or another, and the effectiveness of the force as a totality to do what it needed to do was not affected by these caveats. but let's be clear. caveats is a reality of coalition warfare. and it's a reality that affects us as much as anybody else. and it is -- it is -- it's a myth that somehow there's some countries that have caveat

. >> steve shapiro atlantic council member. i want to push back a little on jason's comment that it's the techies on one side and war fighting on the other side and use that to get to barry's point which is probably from my perspective the major point of the day, of the panel. in a meeting i had in the end of '11 with the latvian presidential cyber team, it was disclosed to my group that the major cyber problem latvia faced was not war fighting problems but most every operating simoned by civilians throughout the country was purchased on the black market. the black market, of course, was produced in the east. as a result, it was estimated in december of '11 that 80% of personal computers in latvia were affected with bot-nets controlled by some mysterious third party. the idea in the techies in the war fighting are separate in this regard need to be blended. because latvia viewed that as a major national security threat including one of the presidential team's own pc as he bought his system on the black market. it was an expense