and by mr. cohen's account, donald trump sr. heard the pitch basically, and overtly approved going ahead with that meeting with the russians. i have questions about the implications of this revelation tonight. joining us now, chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney, thank you for joining us on zero notice. i appreciate it. >> it's my pleasure, rachel. >> you've heard my efforts to sum this up. let me ask you about your first reactions. >> extraordinarily important. at the same time, not terribly surprising. >> in terms of legal liability for the president here, putting aside how this came to light, if the president knew overtly, if he was advised in front of other people this was the russian government offering negative information on his point in order to help him in the election, he weighed that, approved taking meeting and accepting the information, directly on that matter, are there legal implications? >> absolutely. a really important question is, did 10:00 russians were coming, did he know they were coming with dirt, and if

it's up to mr. cohen to explain why he was taping mr. trump. he assumed it was an attorney-client privileged conversation. i'm going to let him speak to that. i have attorney-client privilege that i can't waive. but i will say this. there is no way to spin the two falsehoods that mr. giuliani, on behalf of his client, donald trump, told america to disparage my client. one is that this is the first time that he heard about the karen mcdougal issue. listen to the tape, everyone. this is not a man shocked when mr. cohen said, we have to make payments. >> even though michael is describing to him the formation of the company and why it's being formed and how it will be financed, you believe that's a second reference? >> listen to the tapes. this is not a man shocked about karen mcdougal. he knows what they're talking about. listen to this tape. remember that karen hicks, the campaign spokesman. >> hope hicks. >> hope hicks, excuse me. denied that he knew anything about the mcdougal matter in november before the election. a lie. and here mr. trump is

let's assume for the purposes of my answer,al, that mr. cohen is cooperating. they've made the decision he is going to tell prosecutors what he knows and he's going to do that honestly. we used to call ta joining team america. he's on the team. if that's true, there is no way in the world that mr. cohen would leak this information. it just doesn't make any sense. on the other hand, i don't really think the leak if it came from the trump team, undermines cohen's value as a witness. here's why. the government still needs to prove it. they still need to have somebody who can get on the stand and testify to it. they need to corroborate it. so the fact it's already out there is not good for the government because they don't want details of their investigation made public before they across to make it public but still need mr. cohen as a witness. somebody has to put meat on that bone. and an anonymous leak from an unknown source, that's not going to cut it from a prosecutorial standpoint. that's information but it's not evidence. at least not in a technical sense. an

the new york times reports that, on the recording, mr trump and mr cohen discuss paying karen mcdougal. she says she had a ten—month affair with donald trump in 2006. the tape was reportedly made two months before the election. the bbc‘s chris buckler in washington told me more. basically, it is alleged karen mcdougal had an affair with donald trumpa mcdougal had an affair with donald trump a decade before he stood for the presidential candidacy. in 2006 she sold her story to the national enquirer. he has all was denied he has had that effect and also denied he knew anything about a payment by the national enquirer. it seems the national enquirer did not even published a story. it is a tabloid newspaper owned by a friend of bernal trump. it was used as a catch and kill, that is a statement used when a newspaper effectively buries the story. because of an agreement, that person cannot talk to anybody else about the story. michael cohen was donald trump's rawa and seen as mrfix was donald trump's rawa and seen as mr fix it. was donald trump's rawa and seen as mrfix it. —— lawyer.

>> well, i think mr. cohen is worried about mr. cohen right now, and what he's doing is saying to the prosecutors i want to play ball, whatever game of ball they want to play. i think the white house is losing sleep because when you have a person like mr. cohen who has been so close to the president for so long and who has made it clear that he is willing to allege anything, basically alleging perjury against don trump jr., they have to be going back and now wonder how many e-mails are there, how many pieces of paper does mr. cohen have, how many situations can he corroborate because it's not going to be just about the check or the cash, and that discussion on the tape. there are years of na fair yus acts that he performed for the president. they're saying he is hostile to the white house and pro-michael cohen, and looking to make a deal with prosecutors. >> let me ask you this. we had rudy guiliani on abc may 6th talking about mr. cohen saying the man is an honest, honorable lawyer. this past week on cnn he said i expected somethi

cohen represents to mr. trump. once the keeper of many of mr. trump's secrets, mr. cohen is now seen as increasingly willing to consider cooperating with prosecutors. you'll recall just last month, president trump was asked if cohen might flip. >> are you worried that michael cohen might flip? >> look, i did nothing wrong. you don't understand. i didn't nothing wrong. this stuff came out a long time. >> is he still your friend? >> i've always liked michael. i haven't spoken to michael in a long time. >> is he still your lawyer? >> no, he is not my lawyer, but i always liked michael, and he is a good person. and -- excuse me, do you mind if i talk? you're asking me a question, i'm trying to answer. >> i just want to know if you're worry head is going to cooperate with federal prosecutors. >> no, because i did nothing wrong. >> got it, nothing wrong. >> from there, let's also remember this moment. this was donald trump who knew something about what might be in his lawyer's office upon learning that his lawyer's office had been raided by the fbi. >> so i just heard tha

but given what we know michael cohen has been involved in we can imagine. if mr. cohen is about to cooperate with prosecutors and all these red flags flying make it siam seem like he is, why is this happening right now? how quickly do we expect this process to play out? when we saw these same kinds of red flags in the first instance and rick gates in the second, things happened very quickly when we saw these signs. emily jane fox at "vanity fair" has new reporting on how quickly this does seem to be coming together, and in fact how barely strung together it's been just over the past couple days as somebody's rushing toward something. emily jane fox is here with the new reporting next. [ drum roll ] ...emily lapier from ames, iowa. this is emily's third nomination and first win. um...so, just...wow! um, first of all, to my fellow nominees, it is an honor sharing the road with you. and of course, to the progressive snapshot app for giving good drivers the discounts -- no, i have to say it -- for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. safe driving! for givin

cohen did not leak this. mr. cohen's team did not leak this. this was leaked by someone close to mr. trump because their philosophy is it's out there, it's bad. own it early and by getting this out there, this is one of the worst things cohen had to share with prosecutors, you diminish his value on the used car lot. >> it's interesting to say that michael cohen is an untrustworthy character considering he was the person that president trump trusted for a decade. that speaks poorly about the president's judge of character there as well. i think you hit the nail on the head. there's some reporting that this is not a leak from the cohen camp. in fact, on this very air earlier this evening emily jane fox was very well sourced with cohen suggested that the fear there is that this card was being plucked from his hand. the trump team wanted to put this out to sort of sully, to diminish what he could offer mueller, damage his credibility and suggest we're not afraid of what you can bring. we're going to put it out there and deal with it now. so much of

but on twitter, mr trump made no attempt to hide his anger with both the fbi and mr cohen. he said, hide his anger with both the fbi and mrcohen. he said, it hide his anger with both the fbi and mr cohen. he said, it was... there also remain questions about the private conversations that donald trump had with vladimir putin at theirsummit in donald trump had with vladimir putin at their summit in helsinki. his political opponents clearly believe that some of his words could yet come back to haunt him. lets get more on this now. we can speak to our correspondent chris buckler who is in washington. this recording supposedly dates from before hasn't trump was elected. yeah, a couple of months before the presidential election and that's why there is concern about it and why could potentially form part of an investigation. like the payment that was made to the former porn star, stormy daniels, who also claims an affair with donald trump, there is this question about whether payments we re this question about whether payments were made to stop embarrassing stories and merging abo

the new york times reports that, on the recording, mr trump and mr cohen discuss paying karen mcdougal. she says she had a ten—month affair with donald trump in 2006. the tape was reportedly made two months before the election. the bbc‘s chris buckler in washington told me more. basically, it is alleged that karen mcdougal had an affair with donald trump a decade right before he stood for the presidential election here in the united states. that was in 2006 but in 2016 she sold her story to the national enquirer. he has always denied, of course, that he had that affair and he also denied that he knew anything about a payment by the national enquirer. and it seems the national enquirer did not even publish the story. it of course is a tabloid newspaper that is owned by a friend of donald trump, and there have suggestions that what took place was a kind of "catch and kill" — that is a statement that is used to talk about whenever a publication buys a story and then doesn't publish it, effectively it buries the story. but a non—disclosure agreement means that that person cannot ta

. >> reporter: mr. president, did michael cohen betray you? >> thank you very much. >> reporter: mr. president, are you worried about what michael cohen is going to say to prosecutors? are you worried what's on the other tapes, mr. president? >> a boisterous day in the oval office to be sure, but no more boisterous than many other days. that went on for about 30 more seconds. you just heard cnn reporter kaitlan collins in that clip. she went on to ask the president a few more questions, mostly about vladimir putin. according to cnn, after the white house announced another event in the rose garden later in the day, collins herself was asked to come to former fox news executive bill shine's office in the west wing. she was met by shine, who is these days deputy chief of staff for communications in the white house. and by white house press secretary sarah huckabee sanders. shine told her she was disinvited because the questions she asked why inappropriate for the venue and that she was shouting. condemnation quickly poured in from the news media.

the new york times reports that on the recording, mr trump and mr cohen discuss paying karen mcdougal. she says she had a 10—month affair with donald trump in 2006. the tape was reportedly made two months before the election. for more on this, our correspondent chris buckler joins me live from washington. give us more details to clarify what's going on. it's a complicated story but basically it's alleged karen mcdougal had an affair with donald trumpa mcdougal had an affair with donald trump a decade before he stood for the presidential election in the united states. that was into thousand six, but in 2016 she sold her story to the national enquirer. he's always denied he had that affairand he he's always denied he had that affair and he also denied that he knew anything about a payment by the national enquirer. it seems the national enquirer. it seems the national enquirer. it seems the national enquirer didn't even publish the story. it is a tabloid newspaper owned by a friend of donald trump and there were suggestions that what took place was a kind of catch and kill, that's a st

he also just got the first interview with michael cohen about this case and in his interview, mr. cohen strongly hints that he is looking to cooperate with prosecutors. we've got a little bit of brand new reporting about how that interview came about and the straining story of why it is not on camera. that's brand new. but at this point in the mueller investigation, at this point in the special counsel's investigation, when so many have been indicted, so many have pled guilty, so many have become cooperating witnesses of some kind, we are at the point watching this unfold, we've learned to recognize what it looks lying when a person is about to flip. we know how to recognize the signs. from thanksgiving, 2017, i have two very distinct memories. we'll always distinguish this past thanksgiving from every other one in my life. the first thing is that susan and i got a turkey by accident that was too big to fit in the oven. it was her mom's neighbor -- a farm, he he will us we were getting a little turkey. it was gigantic. it didn't fit in the oven. it was thanksgiving day. we had no

mr. trump and mr. cohen who are charged of violating federal election laws. if you make a payment permitted by law in order to influence an election, if dow you do it in c or check, however you do it, if it is an excess of an amount, that's a crime. >> the government has to show it is perfectly shown to influence the election. >> is this past privilege review and the feedback they were showing it to rudy giuliani means it is already determined that it is not in the privilege documents and more over, of course, rudy giuliani will be waiviing whatever privilege he had. it is in the koesher pile, is that fair? >> i think that's fair. i think that's fair craig, what i was trying to do is explain the framework of how these things are processed and of course if it is already passed through privilege review, it means the team likely concluded there is a crime fraud exception. like harry, i would not rely on mr. rudy giuliani characterization of anything here. if he says today is july 20th, ill stii would still consult a calendar. >> the same question i asked our las

trump and a person who appears to be mr. cohen. nobody is disputing the authenticity of this reporting. there is a question as to whether or not it has political sailence and whether it has legal sallence. let me ask you, given your work in the fbi and law enforcement over the years, what does this say to you? >> it has least has a number of leads. there are a bunch of people mentioned. some by first name, some by last name, and i'm sure the fbi will want to know who they are and what role they play in that. in and of itself, on the face of the recording, it doesn't seem incriminal in aer to. but often things do not. there is a strange reference, at least i think i heard one, to our friend david. we know that the sued anymore he used, both to karen mcdaniels and mcdoogal, was david dennison. so the fake name he used was david and i think mr. cohen referred to our friend david when he starts to talk about executing. >> it may also be david pecker, the hefd ami. >> and that's the other friend david. so it raises more questions than i

cohen has tapes, mr. trump may have tapes and they probably didn't make just one. >> it's not necessarily illegal for mr. cohen toe have made this tape. >> well, in new york state, new york state is what is known as a one-party consent state. meaning that if you and i were talking in new york as we are now and i recorded the conversation without your knowledge, that's not a crime. some states require the con sent of both parties. new york state requires a consent of only one party. >> matt, as you listen to this, as chuck says there's no evidence some sort of crime being committed on this tape. what are the potential liabilities that the president has to worry about either in this specific instance or with mr. cohen more broadly having had some sort of perhaps pattern of recording his interactions with his client? >> based on this tape so far, it seems like the potential liabilities are more political than legal. the tape seems to suggest that mr. trump was aware of payments being discussed in advance of

unless further comments or questions of mr. cohen. >> not of mr. cohen. >> i'm sorry. >> thank you. >> we will now move on to public comments. is there any public comment on this item? please lineup if you can against the wall. we have a number of commentators. >> good evening, ladies and gentlemen. i own a subway on drumm street and 711 on drumm street. commission swig to answer your question sir, the application for drumm street, 48 quick service restaurants in a two-block radius sir. >> under served. >> i am primarily here to talk about safety. we, as restaurants, and as brick and mortar, establishments are so heavily regulated by all government agencies i have a machine. i'm required to keep a hazmat plan binder which is four inches thick. with full details of a plan as to each and ever cleanser that is used in the stores, how we handle those. i wish i had brought it with me. it's four inches thick. and where as, the push carts. i don't know how to operate this sir. >> overhead, please. >> >> face it as if you are looking at it, sir. >> right h

this is the first time the president has come out publicly against mr. cohen. sours confirm to abc news cohen recorded a conversation with then candidate donald trump, about payments to a playboy playmate. the president has denied any extramarital relationship, as well as any hush money paid to mcdougal. the two-minute long dfrgs in person the tape made by koe one undercuts these denials. according to sources, mr. cohen outlined a scheme to reimburse pub shers of national entire inquirer. sources familiar with the tape say trump tells cohen to properly document any payment. the president's attorney, rudy giuliani saying the reimbursement never happened, a source with knowledge of cohen's legal team says quote, a lawyer taping a client is not illegal. it is the equivalent of retaining notes. and the tape is privileged but it is the client who owns privilege. the president's legal team waving privilege. giuliani in a statement to abc news saying quote, it was already out there, i see no point in objecting except on principal. >>> next on abc 7 news. the coliseum

the new york times reports that on the recording — mr trump and mr cohen discuss paying karen mcdougal. she says she had a 10—month affair with donald trump in 2006. the tape was reportedly made two months before the election. the bbc‘s chris buckler in washington has this report. karen mcdougal was a model of hugh hefner polls playboy magazine and she claimed she had an affair with donald trump that lasted for months. their alleged relationship took place a decade before mr trump ran the president but in the months leading up to that vote, karen mcdougal sold her story to a tabloid newspaper. the national enquirer, owned by one of donald trump make friends, never published it. his campaign team denied knowing anything about the payment that it seems donald trump did talk about it with this man, his former lawyer and so—called fixer michael cohen who is currently under investigation for a series of possible offences. in a raid on mr cohen's officers, fbi agents apparently seized a secret recording in which mr trump discussed with his lawyer the possibility of paying money to keep

mr cohen's representative said, as faras forward. mr cohen's representative said, as far as he was concerned, he believed his client wasn't hurt about what was on the tape. he went on to say no amount of spin could change what had actually been recorded. but does raise two questions. first of all, if mr cohen would not be heard, is that an indication that somebody else could be? and secondly, what exactly is on tape. and you can find more analysis and the latest updates, on those reported tape recordings on our website. there's also a profile about trump's former lawyer michael cohen. that's at bbc.com/news. survivors of the boat sinking that killed nine members of the same family have been talking about how the disaster happened. 17 people died when the amphibious vehicle, called a "duck boat" went down in stormy weather on table rock lake in the us state of missouri. the victims were aged between one and 70. sophia tran—thomson has this report. these boat passengers filming a sudden storm on table rock lake while out on tour, see

and cohen's lawyers then shared it with mr. trump's lawyers. the "times" cites three people briefed on the mater in order to make this claim. there's this open criminal investigation into michael cohen. the fbi seizes stuff from him. among the things that were seized was this recording that cohen apparently made of himself talking with candidate trump about this payment. over this week's long now months long back and forth process we've been able to watch where this court has been reviewing all the stuff seized from cohen to figure out which should be considered attorney/client privilege, cohen's attorneys apparently came across this recording as one of the items seized, reviewed it, they shared with donald trump's attorneys. if this new rorring that we've got tonight from emily jane fox at "vanity fair" is true that this tape was marked printed, that means a very specific thing. that means prosecutors would never have gotten it. so that means the only people who would have had access to this thing are michael cohen's lawyers and donald trump's

cohen represents to mr. trump. once the keeper of many of mr. trump's secret, mr. cohen is now seen as increasingly willing to consider cooperating with prosecutors. you'll recall just last month president trump was asked if cohen might flip. >> are you worried that michael cohen might flip? >> look, i did nothing wrong. this stuff would have come out a long time ago. i don't do anything wrong. it's really nice. i haven't spoken to michael in a long time. no, he's not my lawyer anymore but i always liked michael. and he's a good person. excuse me. do you mind if i talk. >> just want to know if you're worried he's going to cooperate? >> no, i'm not worried because i did nothing wrong. >> from there let's also remember this moment. this was donald trump who knew something about what might be in his lawyer's office upon learning that his lawyer's office had been raided by the fbi. >> so i just heard that they broke into the office of one of my personal attorneys. good man. and its rar disgraceful situation. it's a total witch hunt. it's frankly a real disgrace. it's a

the new york times reports that on the recording mr trump and mr cohen discuss paying karen mcdougal. she says she had a ten—month affair with donald trump in 2006. the tape was reportedly made two months before the election. 0ur correspondent chris buckler has the details. the allegations of an affair date back a decade before donald trump ran for president here in the united states. however, the question is really about the timing of payments to karen mcdougal, who is a former playboy model, and that apparently took place in 2016, just before the presidential election took place. now, the payments were made by the national enquirer newspaper here in america. they bought her story, effectively, so she told them about the allegations of the affair with donald trump. however, they never published it. and the national enquirer newspaper is owned by a personal friend of donald trump. it's led some here to claim that it was a case of what is known as "catch and kill". effectively what you do is you buy a story and then you choose whether or not to publish it, and if you don't publish it

but we do not know yet whether or not mr. cohen is being truthful, what he will elaborate. we also we have to be very clear in saying he has a trove of other information to disclose. so let's wait and see how the facts develop. >> yes. carl bernstein, thank you very much for sharing your reporting with us. that is really helpful. jeffrey, thank you for all that. we should say it's just been announced president trump will be speaking about the economy. they're going great for this quarter. 9:30 eastern. >> on the south lawn of the white house. woo do not know if he will take questions or and we also don't know if reporters will shout questions. >>> there's been so much breaking news this morning. we're staying all over it on cnn. special coverage continues shortly. >> have a great weekend. ahoy-hoy. alexander graham bell here... no, no, my number is one, you must want two! two, i say!! like my father before... [telephone ring] like my father before... ahoy-hoy! as long as people talk too loudly on the phone, you can count on geico saving folks money. fifteen minutes could sa

and office, and cohen's lawyers then shared it with mr. trump's lawyers. the times say three people cited in order to make that claim. there's an open criminal investigation into michael cohen. the part of the investigation, fbi seizes tons of stuff from him, and among seized was a recording that cohen apparently made of himself talking with candidate trump about this payment. over this week's long, now month's long back and forth process we've watched where this court is reviewing all the stuff that was seized from cohen to figure out which is considered attorney-client prooif ledivile cohen's attorneys came across the recording of the items seized, reviewed it, shared it with donald trump's attorneys, and if this new reporting we got tonight from emily james fox at vanity fair is true, that the tape was marked privileged, that means a specific thing. that means prosecutors would never have gotten it. so that means the only people who would have had access to this thing is michael cohen's lawyers and president trump's lawyers, and they di

mr. cohen could be heardbr fing mr. trump on financial arrangements and mr. trump is gaged in the discussion. here's why all this matters. trump's campaign ahead of the election had denied thend ate had any knowledge of payments to the model, kar mcdougle. it also raises questions about ssible campaign finan law violations and it shows cohen is willing to share tapes ofis d boss. josh, we have been covering president trump for some time. we wou go trump tower, there would be michael cohen, the fixer. to see him break like this and release the recording, what does it mean for this white house? joshua: it's scking, first of all, because cohen has been associated as trump's fixer protector, lackey, and attack dog, including with reporters, b goink years. so the fact that he's broken and is openly flouting the material he declines have on trump -- claims to have on trump, not just the one tape but according to cnn, or 100 tapes of recorded conversations, means he's a potential very valuable witness against trump should bob muler, special counsel, and investigator

cohen, will have to determine. i think we have to look at this as part of a larger picture. mr. cohen is very approximate to important things around donald trump. he is claiming that he knows many things, including this crucial event and what transpired before it. and this was part of it. and that the president, then a candidate, knew of it in advance. presumably, mueller may already know about what the president's knowledge of this is or is not. this is part of a big matrix. >> and cohen suggests other people were in the room during the meeting that he was at, so maybe mueller has had access to that. >> again, we know almost nothing out of the mueller investigation about what state his investigation is at except that he is looking at obstruction of justice. he is looking at questions of collusion. he is looking at what the president did, what the russians did. this meeting goes to the heart of it. and if indeed michael cohen can provide some good evidence backed up by others that the president knew of this in advance, it could be very damaging to the president. but. >> or more

the fbi seized the tapes during a raid on mr. cohen's office. that would seem to contradict trump's denial that he had any knowledge of the payment before the 2016 election that kept her from talking about her alleged yearlong affair with donald trump between 2006 and 2007. >> a source familiar with the president's legal strategy confirmed that the president did not know michael cohen was recording him on that tape and cnn reports, one source told them, when informed about the recording, trump said i can't believe michael would do this to me. donald trump's lawyer, rudy giuliani, clachled the recording is a good inning. he said it is powerful evidence. rudy giuliani says it is less than two minutes long and proves he did not know about the payment before his conversation with michael cohen. michael cohen's lawyer disagrees tweeting when the recording is heard, it will not hurt mr. cohen. any attempt at spin cannot change what is on the tape. >> amid is back and forth rachel maddow has just broken a major piece of news about the trump tape. we kn

fox news confirms mr. trump and mr. cohen discussed but never made a payment to karen macdougall, a formal playboy model who claims she had an affair with mr. trump back in 2006. the president's private attorney rudy giuliani told the "new york times" in the big scheme of things it's powerful excul exculpatory evidence adding that nothing in that conversation suggests that he had any knowledge of it in advance. if true, that could rebuff any presumed effort by the mueller team to tie the candidate to any direct violation of the law. what's less clear, why mr. cohen recorded his client in the first place and just how many recordings there are latest twist in the never ending 2016 saga comes as the president headed to bedminster, new jersey over the weekend. the president didn't respond to shouted questions as he departed the white house this afternoon. instead leaving behind washington still abuse following yesterday's announcement the white house planned to welcome vladimir putin to washington some time this fall decisi

mr. cohen. was there outreach or anything, i mean, to be honest, i'm personally concerned about notification at this point so if we approve one of the other permits for the other locations, i mean are we going to be the dart board? >> every location has the same requirement for the radius. not just for -- >> i believe the public works hearing i believe and the one. oh. >> ok. >> thank you. >> that would be fine with what conditioning it to the other two and removing this one from. >> if you have a question on the procedure i will entertain that. >> please come to the -- >> about the other two locations, we basically just like to be just come and to stay there and it's actually not like a place so we can work find there. >> it's one drumm street and 979 market street and 1169 market street. one is the emmy cente ep tee cef density and even though i think we have to question, in the future, and i appreciate commissioner's suggestion that we have this further discussion amongst ourselves next week,

and it highlights the potential legal and political danger that mr. cohen represents to mr. trump. once the keeper of many of mr. trump's secrets, mr. cohen is now seen as increasingly willing to consider cooperating with prosecutors. joining us by phone from "the new york times," mike schmidt who broke this story along with his colleagues. joyce vance former u.s. attorney now an msnbc contributor. with us at the table, jonathan lemire, associated press white house reporter and sliding in as only he can do, john heilman is back. got sechlt entitles i'm nven ti to read because i didn't think he would be here. if you could, underscore the significance of learning that donald trump was aware months before the election of these hush money payments to karen mcdougal. >> in early november of 2016, w "the wall street journal" wrote an article about the payment. they said it was news to them. what the article shows is the president clearly knew about it at the time. this is something michael cohen updated him on in september. he was briefed on what was going on. this is obviously something

cohen is aware of that mr. trump himself or the trump organization were involved in and whether those transactions were somehow illegal. remember the stormy daniels payment was put in an account that would also receive money, lots of money, from corporations, from russian oligarchs, so questions with respect to a pay to play type scenario that could have criminal implications and as far as distancing from the white house, i mean there is not a whole lot mr. president trump could do, call off the investigation, which would create tremendous problems constitutionally as a matter of separation of powers or preemptive broad pard than in my mind first of all would be constitutionally suspect to the extent to which it was seeking to obstruct an investigation and secondly wouldn't affect any state crimes that mr. cohen might be liable for. his partner in the taxicab business already pled guilty to tax fraud. so it remains to be seen the breadth that mr. cohen can in terms of information the breadth of information he h

that very same day four days the new york times reported mr. trump called mr. cohen to check in. now today the times was first to report one of the many items was in fact a recording of the president and michael cohen discussing payments made to a former playboy model. a woman who says she had an affair with the president. he denied having any knowledge of any such payment made to her. joining us is senior reporter at vanity fair who reported out an important new piece of this story. >> i spoke with the president's attorney who said he wasn't sure but effectively they waived privilege by speaking about what's on the tape. >> yeah. you start talking about it. >> detail the transcript of the tape. what is interesting is that the transcript as described by rudy giuliani says one thing and people who are close to michael cohen have said well, that's not how we hear the conversation. >> they have described the content of the tape differently? >> as slightly differently. >> what's the way they are describing it? >> that is different. the difference is that the people around cohen say i

and it highlights the potential legal and political danger that mr. cohen represents to mr. trump. once the keeper of many of mr. trump's secrets mr. cohen is now seen as increasingly being willing to cooperating with prosecutors." joining us by phone from "the new york times," mike schmidt who broke this story along with his colleagues. joyce vance former u.s. attorney now an msnbc contributor. with us at the table, jonathan lemire, associated press white house reporter and sliding in as only he can do, john heilman is back. >> i've been here all day. >> you've got seven titles i'm not going to read because i didn't think you'd make it. we're glad to have you back. we missed you. mike schmidt, if you contradiction underscore the significance of learning that donald trump was aware months before the election of these hush money payments to karen mcdug daal. >> in early november of 2016, "the wall street journal" wrote a story about this payment and the campaign said that it knew nothing about it. it said this was news to them and whatever. well, what the recording shows is that the

so was mr. giuliani lying in that clip you just heard, or lying in this one from just a couple of months ago? >> the man is an honest, honorable lawyer. >> it all becomes clear right now. it's confusing, to say the least. the honest honorable lawyer has also been deeply dishonest for years, or at least this week. maybe it's like truthful hyperbole or something. or maybe like so much else these days is yet another thing that would be funny if it weren't so serious. after all, the assertion by michael cohen if true casts serious down on the president's long-time claims of no collusion with russia. if true, what else would this be expect the candidate having knowledge or complicity in a form of premeditated collaboration or attempted collaboration with a hostile foreign power in the middle of its attack on american democracy. you'll remember the meeting was in june of 2016, but we didn't learn about it until the following summer. the campaign never spoke of it nor the participants nor the transitio

the undying loyalty mr. cohen was going give, not arguing that mr. cohen is mentally disabled as a legal matter, but rather there's mitigation to that. once you get involved with donald trump, he is an all powerful, all knowing, demanding sort of guy. mr. cohen fell victim to that to argue to prosecutors that the sentence should be lower than it otherwise would be. >> there's talk about how the president characterized his relationship with mr. cohen, he used past tense of liked when talking of him there on the white house lawn a couple weeks ago. there's question on whether or not the president would pardon michael cohen. is there a way for cohen to legally protect himself, but, at the same time, send a signal to the white house that he wants more from the white house? >> i'm sure. he can go on the air and talk through surrogates talking to mr. trump or his attorneys. he doesn't think a pardon is in it. everything he is doing, talking well of the fbi agents, how he's been treated fairly. all that signals is he is trying to get in the room with the pr

secretly recorded a conven with mr. trump two months before americans cast their ballots. the pair discussed payments to silence a former playboy model whicin the end were never made. the fbi seized the recording during a raid on cohen's office earlier this year. the woman at the center of the story is karen mcdougal, who says she began a nearly year-long affair with mr. trump in 2006, something he flatly denies. it follows months of controversy over payments mr. cohen to porn , also in theaniels waning months of the campaign. here to help us through all this is a former u.s. assistant attorney. thanks for joining me. how damaging is this to donald trump? >> the recording itself probably doesn't have tatmendous implns. politically it suggests that the president as well as hope hicks, his former communications inrector emma were not accurately for tg his lack of knowledge. but the other piece is does michael cohen have addition tapes that could implicate the president and things beyond campaign finance violations? jane: