king at the bottom line what's the achievement of nato countries not nato alone but nato countries in cos of all what's the achievement of nato countries in afghanistan what's the achievements of nato countries in iraq what's the achievement of nato countries in libya what's the achievement of nato countries in syria you see a whole lot of devastation of think you need to talk about the responsibility of nato of creating a lot of chaos well peter i know one thing that keeps five thousand nato bureaucrats gainfully employed and the arms producers also see their rodham line expand i mean it's very simple from that point of view forty seconds goes to peter before we end the program. the situation then you just outlined it beautifully in terms of what's been going on in the world most recently as we started this show it's gotten a lot more dangerous than it was and i think what we need is to pull back now we need to be sitting down and talking we as michael said earlier we saw look what happened in korea we were on the brink of war in korea the head of the council of foreign relations ric

policy are supportive of nato. in the trump administration many official senior officials in the trump administration are supportive of nato we in the us have always complained about europeans not paying enough i have a very close friend who sat behind junior diplomat larry eagleburger who later became secretary of state who complained to the europeans in one nine hundred seventy one that they weren't paying enough have been present when we have told the europeans they should pay more and we're still telling them that. you know. different americans evaluate this differently personally i think for us nato is a bargain now since the events in ukraine russia's security post sure has changed dramatically partially because of its intervention in syria partially because of the development of a new generation of weapons i think russia feels far less insecurities of the nato now than it was let's say. five six years ago do you think the rush of two thousand and eighteen presents the same problem for nader as it was that sa

nato. i mean nato operates by consensus. and it's very it is still it is pummeling france is a complicated to explain how you know the u.s. has great influence in nato but when you talk about the u.s. officials you're not talking about the white house or is it some other. day i was a large bureaucracy and there are ministers from the u.s. and nato staff from the u.s. speak also because large portions of u.s. policy are supportive of nato. in the trump administration many official senior officials in the trump administration are supportive of nato we in the u.s. have always complained about europeans not paying enough i have a very close friend who sat behind jr diplomat larry eagleburger who later became secretary of state who complained to the europeans in one nine hundred seventy one that they weren't paying enough have been present when we have told the europeans they should pay more and we're still telling them that. you know. different americans evaluate this differently personally i think for us nato is a bargain now s

i don't think nato will become obsolete nato needs to find a different mission my problem with this idea of independent european military force i do think europe should become and seize this opportunity of the trump era to become more independent from america it saddens me though that it's in the context of militarization well it all comes down to that with it shouldn't because this is a world where the real challenges of our time are not going to be met by military force but i do think that europe should find its own way on a whole set of issues i mean not just a military force but it maybe it can maintain relations with iran which it should well russia and the e.u. stand together on the issue of iran do you think this could have far reaching consequences this realignment of russia and e.u. for america i do and i think the realignment of relations between russia and china will have major implications i think there's a realignment in the world generally that is not fully understood we're living through history and america as i said is no longer the sole superpower and i think part o

nato new u.s. and nato allies are still acting very much together but it comes out of it's been a constant argument since the end of the cold war and i suppose it'll always be there because is it natural for the united states to be in europe forever well i mean on some level it's very beneficial economically and. if not of much of welcomed it. because of conditions at the time and eventually some time whether it's a century two centuries a thousand years in the future it will change but it hasn't right now and that so we're dealing with. and an argument and a tendency and a worry but it hasn't gone much beyond that in my perception now for us russians it's very hard to figure out what's going on with native because in the one had to be going to witness this. the americans and the europeans bickering over a nato expenses but on the other hand you they have intensified their exercises alongside the russian border used to work for an aide to write or advise me i've been yes worth in the context not fo

is very much part of nato in fact just today the e.u.'s top diplomat for. she met with the secretary general of nato in brussels and reaffirmed how important the military alliances take a listen corp with nato that is strengthening i would be pleased to welcome to the journal stoltenberg again this morning with us and our cooperation with nato and strongest ever so disagreement over an e.u. army maybe but there is one thing that all these countries agree on the u.s. the e.u. the u.k. is part of it still all agree on the need to defend themselves against russia said it when making this e.u. army proposal and nato officials repeat it like a mantra that there is growing russian military activity and they need to be able to counter it. we spoke to political analyst chris brown and he told us that have been williamson doesn't want the u.k. to be left out in the cold by the u.s. . britain is wants to keep nato as the sole game in town because of its links the united states that's why the united states wants to keep nato and they don't want to european army so bri

in the early ninety's because when the soviet union collapsed what happened to nato nato itself said we need to either get out of the area or out of business out of the recession meant we need to start expanding intervening. if you don't do this with a higher purpose and more in and they will fall apart my problem if the e.u. becomes dependent becomes reposition itself as a military power descension will go down the same path they will it will need and then in order to exist if that is russia if mccraw and wants to exert it to. press european solver and tea from the united states and other countries may i suggest that he starts not with the military but with political and intelligence independence from the united states i mean i certainly remember in the last couple of years revelations through wiki leaks that the cia had penetrated every single significant french political party right not worry about russian naggers about the cia and french political parties or when obama's intelligence was bugging mark boal before all right where is the big reaction against that you want to start e

nato is very alarmed about this we just heard from nato secretary-general un stoltenberg who called the incident very serious he reiterated calls that nato made already yesterday for russia to release the ukrainian vessels to release the ukrainian soldiers he said it was a very serious situation that these. ukrainian military personnel had been harmed by russia firing on the vessels and this is something of course ukraine is not a nato member but is a close nato partner and ukrainian president petro poroshenko called nato and asked them to hold these urgent consultations to discuss possible any any possible response any possible political response and in fact. said that stands behind ukraine its territorial sovereignty and the fact that nato will never recognize russia's annexation of crimea which is very important in this at this point because of course this is incident happens just off the crimean peninsula i would come to from normal as nikki haley give money to america's position on this i would say that she was pretty clear in her statement as i said he called it a reckless russian

and the rest of nato has been strained by a series of disputes they include u.s. support for kurdish forces in syria who are considered by turkey to be terrorists meanwhile turkey's recent efforts to coordinate with iran and russia in syria have angered washington u.s. still refuses to hand over dissident cleric. who turkey blames for an attempted coup in two thousand and sixteen and nato has been urging turkey to scrap the purchase of a russian anti-missile system. for more on this let's cross live to alice andro bruno who's a senior analyst at the lombardi thank you very much for being with us here on r.t. international. thank you for having me so let's get right to this my pump a zero he says it would be unfortunate if turkey were to leave nato so does that sound like it's even a real possibility. well it is a possibility because countries do have the option to leave. nevertheless i think that everyone is a very smooth player and very much of alien and he won't leave. because he can probably have more leverage over the united states by staying in nato that said

and a swathe of other countries remember nato and. williamson's point is that france and germany should be aiming to meet their two percent g.d.p. target of defense spending on nato before they start thinking about forming any alternative armies now france at the moment spends about one point eight percent g.d.p. on defense and germany spends about one point two and the e.u. is very much part of nato in fact just today the e.u.'s top diplomat. she met with the secretary general of nato in brussels and reaffirmed how important the military alliances take a listen corporation with nato that is strengthening i would be pleased to welcome to the general still to again this morning with us and our cooperation with nato and strongest ever so disagreement over an e.u. army maybe but there is one thing that all of these countries agree on the u.s. the e.u. the u.k. is part of it still all agree on the need to defend themselves against russia said it when making this e.u. army proposal and nato officials repeat it like a mantra that there is g

so we created nato. nato was not a level institution. nato was created to fight the cold war. in fact, the institutions we created including the eu, were largely created for security reasons. this is not the same that they are not also liberal in a certain sense. in fact, institutions can be both realist and liberal at the time. the fact is, during the cold war, virtually everything we did was designed to deal with the soviet union. >> so those seemed like cases where it's hard to tell how much of strategy is being driven by realism and hegemony, one might say, i certainly disagree but purposes of argument, a lot of the 9/11 strategies you talk about, the response in afghanistan and the response in iraq have been misplaced, was driven not by the divider for democracy was kind of the trailing reason. we went to afghanistan really because it was a source and location of this massive attack on the homeland. we thought we had to clean it up. i'm wondering if -- how do you know i'm a how can you tell when these policies are driven by liberalism as opposed to some realist impulse? >

demands that he's making on nato and frankly taking the alliance for granted and so to that extent i think president and for that matter chancellor merkel were making a statement that that if the u.s. decides to push this in this direction they have options as well well it's not just nato it's iran deal it's to tarot forest trump pretends not to care about what the europeans say but nevertheless he replied with a whole series of tweets in response to mccrone so does that mean that the europeans got under his skin that he actually cares more about their relationship with the e.u. than he wants people to believe. i'm not sure i can draw any conclusions from this the so i would call divisive activity i think the strategy if you want to call it that as you referred to pulling out of the iran nuclear deal about potentially pulling out of the intermediate nuclear forces agreement is and then in terms of challenging nato's future i think those are very divisive and destructive for the united states and i and i hope the president sees the wisdom of pulling back and reinforcing our ties to ou

nato is the be all and end all of all security in the world and how dare the french dare them crowd side the box because don't they remember that we had to save them for in two world wars and so on and you would have thought trump who has been complaining about this huge burden of the defending the europeans when they're not doing anything themselves you think trying to get out to say hey you know that's not a bad idea i think i like this idea of europeans doing more yes and said oh no they were for bad and the last thing he was. are you lou real quickly probably go to the break here if that was all about nato twenty seconds before we go to the break go ahead lou well of course the u.s. occupies europe it's not defending europe and it's this is all a fraud and trump wants more money from the europeans to be occupied by the u.s. i hope they don't give it to us ok i'm going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on nationalism stayed with our to. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be s

nato more than once. we've had detailed briefs for technical experts and my last time there a few weeks ago, i said if any of you have any advice, please send it to me. i want to know what options you can find because the only ones i see are highly unpalatable. so where are we rate now? the national security adviser carried the concern directly into moscow. secretary pompeo is engaged with his foreign minister counterparts and nato, the foreign minister meeting goes, i think it's december 4th and this will be, i'm sure a front and center topic. i was just in prague yesterday -- the day before yesterday and i met with two of our nato nations and ministers there. i met with two other nato nations when i was in manama last saturday, and we are doing everything we can to try to find any option, and if any of you have any good ideas, please send me an e-mail. it seems like every nut in america has my e-mail address. i'm sure you can find it and send it to me. i don't think this is the military. this is the u.s

concerned about the expansion of nato nato has expanded into thirteen countries up to the borders of russia thirteen countries at the. ship way not. in early spring of two thousand and fourteen eastern ukraine was also buzzing with protests against the new authorities in kiev this region with the population close to russia geographically and culturally feared that the ultra right leanings of the newly formed government would bring meal nationalism to their lands. and they have their reasons. the status of the russian language in ukraine has been a stumbling block for many years implementing russian as a second state bank which was one of the main campaign promises of president bush in a full day in two thousand and twelve the government passed a law making it the second official language in the southern and eastern parts of ukraine the areas where the russian speaking. makes up a majority ukrainian nationalist groups initiated massive protests opposing the law and observing viewer might see some familiar faces there on the five month. point of our last. on february twenty third two t

enjoyed nato or at least they participated in nato for so long. without putting out their share of the funding funded. jim in charleston as a longtime rival has announced he's stepping down as me to the christian social union and the american system party in bavaria and most of the high level shakeup pinch him in politics but who will see hoffa has confirmed he will continue as the country's interior minister i'm leaving the post of chairman of the christian social union it has been decided my position as the head of the interior ministry i have no reason to make statements on this issue. the announcement comes after disappointing results to say office party in the various recent election two weeks ago after poor results for angela merkel c.d.u. and another regional vote in the state of has she announced she would step down as party leader and wouldn't stand in the next federal election yes's of the missing woman's father had acted fast pull out the next edu party convention on december fourth i will not run for the chair of the party secondly thi

i think so i think that nato is long past its sell date i mean it makes absolutely no sense for nato to continue it's not even clear you know meters depending who against what i mean the other day was a few months ago when trump was in europe trump was denouncing germany for you know because americans were supposedly trying to defend germany while germany was buying liquified buying gas from russia so you know trump was denouncing germans well why don't you buy liquefied natural gas from us today trump is denouncing the french because they're supposedly ungrateful for all the wonderful thing that america did in saving them from the germans what was all this shows is that it's very unclear what exactly nato is supposed to be doing defending whom against what one minute would defend the germany against russia then supposedly we were defending france from germany so it makes sense for the each country in europe to start working out its security arrangements in the post cold war world this transatlantic alliance this massive elephant. makes you know no one more secure and i actually thin

here nato popped up or immediately talking about ukraine i mean ukraine is not a member of nato number one ok and it should be made clear here and also this seems to be a provocation on a larger scale to have ukraine become a member of nato which you know it's kind of like forcing it through here but this is the but this is very this is very ill founded logic because if in caves and as we saw on sunday there are tensions between russia and ukraine for a variety of reasons why would nato want to have a member within their own lines that has bad relations with and with a neighbor that could come to a military exchange what is the logic i thought nato was about projecting speace instability it seems to me they're doing just the opposite go ahead in london. it's one thing to have. a ukraine as a member. and europeans as a common for the they know the ukrainian. current situation in ukraine led by the nazis because let us be clear all the jewish newspapers and all the media and all the research is the new analysis and ukraine is doing very well so the main main main main cause and main main

right lou real quickly people we go to the break here if that was all about nato twenty seconds before we go to the break go ahead lou well of course the u.s. occupies europe it's not defending europe and it's this is all a fraud and trump wants more money from the europeans to be occupied by the u.s. i hope they don't give it to us ok i'm going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on nationalism state with our. guests. are the roots of those two syllables. i don't force on this if they're. broken there's a lot of business with the most intuitive of the. this is. not a slow slow slow slow slow motion i am. ok see that because the way that nobody else to look at the model you punish to produce to move the show switches to food so. you do what you must. do for. the reserve bank enables a cup doxie yes this is at the center of america's descent into financial armageddon yes can you blame the fed for such things as the infrastructure collapse across america the ecological collapse that's having going to califo