it is similar to michael cohen once those hush payments were coming under scrutiny. the president made sure to praise guiliani his long time friend and personal attorney in this interview but claims he did not direct guiliani to go to ukraine and seek out these investigations on his behalf. >> you have to ask that to rudy. i don't even know -- i think he was going to go to ukraine and canceled the trip. rudy has other clients other than me. >> reporter: he's pushed multiple times in that interview, did you direct rudy guilliani to go do this? no. but the transcript of the white house of the ukrainian leader you see the president in his own words not once but twice, three times telling the ukranian leader he will not only have him speak to bill barr but rudy guilliani, praising him and saying i will have guiliani give you a call. not only is he contradicting himself saying, no, he did not direct guiliani to go do these investigations he is talking about gordon sondland, ambassador, and now that famous press briefing. >> i followed the directions of the president. we w

michael cohen's insurance policy. he had one as well. he had the tape where they were setting up the hush money pay off that ended up getting michael cohen a prison term because of the ill advised olc memo saying we can't indiect a criminal president. rudy giuliani may also have an insurance policy. we'll have to see what he meant by that. i think he may end up on the losing end of things. >> i think glen is right but if you just look at facts and what lev parnas is starting to say. he's making statements that make it hard to believe there was absolutely no discussion with donald trump. we have to hear more but the timing of conversations and public statements between say in may when we hear that there's trump literally said on fox news after a discussion that rudy giuliani had made about his public trips that he was going to take to the ukraine on may 9th and that he had talked to trump about it and trump knew about it. it's not as if there aren't public statements that make trump's statements just not credible, including from trump him

he told him what to do and michael cohen did it and michael cohen is in jail and donald trump is just as guilty as michael cohen and should be in jail with him. he is individual one. as far as his foreign policy goes, go back to the beginnings of this administration. first thing that son-in-law did was ask if we can have a back channel connection to russia so we can talk to putin and not have anybody hear it. well, they still are talking to putin and put their discussions in this lock box, this super secret stashed away area where they put these ukraine calls to zelensky, which are not about sources and methods, which is what you'd be protecting and not the subject per se of the conversation. they're still operating a rogue state department, a rogue foreign policy for the benefit of donald trump's politics and for repaying a favors that put donald trump into the white house. this is the most corrupt administration in the history of our country and the american people should bring them to a reckoning in 2020 if he's not removed by the senate, which i doubt he will because the senate do

roger stone, michael cohen and paul manafort. he's been there long enough that if you do his bidding, you will end up in jail and i can't believe mike pompeo can't land himself on that right side of that line. >> it's power and corruption. ultimately the question is how much are you willing to corrupt yourself to have access to power. right now donald trump is powerful not just because of who he is but the base he commands inside the republican party. he's been playing the music for last three years that every one in the republican party dances too. i think the gamble all these individuals are making is the music isn't going to stop. it's not going to stop until they manage to get their next office. the problem is all of them have with this scandal and every other. i think about the watergate father or moth formulation, it's different for these guys. with pompeo and pence, what's what did they know? when did they know and what did they do about it? they knew everything. they knew everything about this ukraine scandal. they knew i

involvement and how he was directing michael cohen. we already know about if here with rudy giuliani, because, one, read it in the transcript released by the white house of that july 25th call where not once or twice but three times trump urges the ukrainian president to work with rudy giuliani, telling him he's going to have giuliani give him a call and praising him at length. of course, in addition to testimony from officials talking about how they were instructed by the president to work with rudy and essentially saying that they had no other option from that, and even mick mulvaney during that famed press briefing appearance defended the president using rudy giuliani when it came to his dealings in ukraine. >> yep. name checks a couple of times on the zelensky phone call yet he's like, talk to rudy. the other big, big story, we're learning what the president knew when he released $400 million in military aid to ukraine and upends a key defense point in the entire impeachment inquirin >> reporter: yes. the timeline is more complicat

more specifically for rudy, look at what happened with michael cohen. one thing i'm hearing from a lot of republicans and i think would make sense to a lot of viewers, we have seen so many interviews rudy giuliani where we scratched our head. this isn't just a political problem. he's put himself in more legal jeopardy. if he's going to be thrown under the bus, he may be thrown under a very long bus that goes back and forth over him. >> i want to ask you about that, that legal jeopardy that he may be in. we know that federal prosecutors are looking into giuliani's business dealings. of course we know two of his associates have been indicted. how hot is the water that he's in right now? >> it's scalding. realistically, if you are dealing with people who are under federal indictment, receiving large quantities of money from them and you are doing business with them, you're in potentially in very hot water anybody, no matter who you are. you are going to be seriously looked at by the feds. and we have seen evidence that they are devoting substantial resourc

no. >> so we hear him say, ask michael cohen. remember that? then, of course, just last night he said, ask rudy giuliani. does it sound to you, mark, like rudy giuliani's days are numbered? >> brooke, i've lost sound here in denver but i think i anticipate your question, which is, is rudy giuliani the next guy under the bus? and as you look at the president's former attorney, who's now in prison, and the long line of people and long trail of people behind the president's bus, it's clear that rudy giuliani could be next in line, because what we know about the president is that his bus has no brakes. when he starts talking about the fact that rudy giuliani had other clients, that's the first tell. right? the first tell. >> yes. >> so just, keep your eye on this one, but there's a long line of people under that bus. >> just want to make sure, can you hear me? can we keep going? >> i gotcha. >> cool. so, yeah. exactly what i wanted to know. ought th oug at this point, could giuliani be a scapegoat? take the fall or do we know too much about the pre

of course we later learned that he did and that he did facilitate those and now michael cohen is serving three years in prison for that. >> yes, he certainly is. kaitlan collins, thank you very much. more news on the impeachment front. a report reveals the president already knew about the whistle-blower complaint against him when he finally decided to release that military aid to ukraine. sara murray joins us with more. sarah, this undermines a key white house defense? >> it does. and one of the key questions is why the president finally relented and decided to release that money and now we're learning another possible explanation which is this skplants from the whistle-blower that president trump was aware of. by the time president trump caved, releasing $400 million in military aid to ukraine. he already knew a whistle-blower raised red flags about how the president froze the funds. according to "the new york times," trump was briefed on the complaint in august. the new report could shed light on why trump ultimately released the money on september 12th and why he was so insistent when

cohen is a very talented lawyer. >> rudy giuliani is a great lawyer. >> i've always liked michael. >> i think rudy is a great gentleman. >> you have to ask that to rudy. >> they've got cohen totally unrelated to the campaign. i'm not involved. >> rudy has other clients other than me. >> that's quite the evolution. we know ultimately that michael cohen did flip on the president and he's now serving time in prison. you know rudy giuliani very well. rudy giuliani and this president go way back. how concerned do you think the president is right now that giuliani being possibly flip on him, too. >> i won't make prediction, but i know as a common practice, rudy giuliani was a former u.s. attorney when defendants or suspects are facing a time in jail and very often they're skeptical about their previous decisions and i'm not going to make predictions to say whether he will or will not flip on the president and it would have crossed the president's mind. >> we saw over 12 witnesses and over 30 hours of testimony all fact-based witnesses and many of your democratic colleagues say there's no d

a beautiful example is michael cohen. michael cohen has been his right-hand man for so long. >> absolutely. >> he basically had the nerve to say, trump actually said he was the not that close to him, that this guy was -- >> he used to say he was like his son. i've been in meetings with the two of them. >> i've seen them together. when trump took office, michael cohen was coordinating a lot of the efforts on the financial side, doing a really good job. and then when all this went down, who? michael cohen who? i think we are seeing the pattern that's set forth. as far as information, as far as new information that could be, you know, something turning for president trump, i think that, gosh, what did president trump say a long time ago? he said he could walk on 5th avenue, shoot someone and still be okay? this is what we're witnessing. >> he said people would you still vote for him. the question is will more vote for him. this week with virginia when democrats took both houses of the state legislature, the governor of kentu

and that's why some of them were going to turn out like michael cohen. >> the michael cohen reference is interesting. nicolle, i think i heard you say something about this earlier today. it harkens back to the cohen hearing where he said this president isn't someone who gives direct orders in that way. he makes these oblique suggestions and expects things to get done. we have heard that from cohen. so it's not surprising to hear it applied in this same way. i think the other takeaway from my conversations with democratic members is, based on the sondland hearing, is they're not going to take the bait on trying to draw this out and call in some of these bigger-name witnesses. i was very curious to see if all the references to pompeo, if gordon sondland's allusions to giving john bolton rudy giuliani's phone number would be enough that some of these democrats might say it's worth it to draw things out even a little bit longer if necessary to get those folks in. and all of the democrats i talked to either deferred to adam schiff's judgment on this or said, you know what, we've got enough

cohen, paul ma nafort inner circle, michael cohen, paul manafort whipping convicted. momentum there. it is interesting to show white the independent was on the front because the much ministry was the ambassador. there was a lot of hype about these proceedings opening up. i was trying to gauge the reaction from american news papers. it was interesting. they said "oh, these casinos are lacking pizzazz". you washed it.|j said "oh, these casinos are lacking pizzazz". you washed it. i am surprised by that. i am enthralled by this and i thought the lady came over, the former ambassador came over, the former ambassador came over her positively. very composed responses to difficult circumstances for sub she was very brave to do it, been warned against doing it and going there to give evidence against the president and she was clearly intimidated by the revelation that while she was giving evidence, he was tweeting again in a very negative way. that has outback pizzazz. will you keep watching? absolutely! i hope you keep watching because you are back in half an hour both of yo

indeed it turned out to be a bad sign since michael cohen is now in prison. i don't know what you have to call it, though, when you have to report that same thing for a second time. but tonight we can report that the president's new personal lawyer, the one who isn't in prison tonight, he too has had to hire his own criminal defense lawyer. that was the news that we got today about the president's current personal lawyer, rudy giuliani. rudy giuliani has hired his own criminal defense lawyer now. and of all the lawyers in the world that rudy giuliani could have hired, it turns out, sure, why not? he hired the guy who had been michael cohen's criminal defense lawyer back in the day. despite the fact that that worked out with michael cohen ultimately going to prison, it's like there's only ten of these guys in the world, right? like, really? michael cohen's is the president's other personal lawyer. he's in jail. you're hiring his lawyer? first of all, you both had to get criminal defense lawyers. you both decided to get the same one? it's like literally there's

cohen and follow the money, how did michael cohen get brought down? because of the donations to stormy daniels. where did the money come from. what did you do with it? there is going to be and we'll see it a money trail here as related to parnas and fruman and rudy giuliani. that is a problem. it is not hearsay. you could track where the money come from and where did it wind up and who was in the middle of that. >> the superpac committee. stand by. there is more news. president trump is strongly defending his decision to intervene in the case of the u.s. navy s.e.a.l. accused of war crimes. we'll have more on that and all of the breaking news right after a quick break. uh, what do you want? i've got uh, ai robots, i've got vr goggles. i want your sled, please. no. [ chuckles ] timmy. it'd be a shame if this went viral. for those who never compromise. the mercedes-benz winter event. whoa. he was pretty good this year. hbut mike bloomberg became thele clasguy whoho mdid good. after building a business that created thousands of jobs he took charge of a c

a lot of parallels what the president said about michael cohen and the hush money payments to stormy daniels. he pleaded ignorance and didn't know where the money came from but why michael cohen made those payments. michael cohen is serving three years in prison and we did learn about the president's involvement in all of that. >> kaitlan, happy thanksgiving. >>> asian markets slid thursday, after the president, president trump, signed the hong kong human rights decency act. siding with pro-democracy activists in hong kong and potentially complicating trade talks. this sanctions chinese officials for cracking down on the protesters. and it confirms that special freedoms are being maintained by beijing. that would be a huge blow to its important international economy. the hong kong government blasted the bill and said it was unnecessary and unwarranted. chi china's minister of foreign affairs said such plainly bullying behavior is firmly opposed by the chinese government and chinese people. the chinese government calling america a bully. this is going on as they are trying to end a tr

he said, oh, ask michael cohen. i don't know anything about that. and he does this with everyone. they start out as the smartest people in their industry. they're killers, they're warriors. then he slowly starts to talk about them in more ambiguous terms and distances himself. the participattern of behavior seeing him exhibit fits with the laundry list of people that you mentioned earlier. and we'll remember rudy giuliani's first day on the job. he revealed on a fox news interview that trump knew about the stormy daniels payments when trump had been denying it up until that point. it is shocking that he has lasted this long. >> the former mayor is aware of that cycle because reuters has some new reporting that said he was joking about having an insurance policy. how did democrats deal with this asymmetry? on the one side you have this torrent of controversy and scandal surrounding the president, surrounding rudy giuliani. and on the other hand you have republicans trying to make a case that doesn't really exist substantively about joe biden. we've seen this happen before. from a m

>> why did michael cohen make it if there was no -- >> you'd have to ask michael cohen. mike is my attorney, and you'll have to ask michael. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in your ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy, but rudy -- i don't even know -- i know he was going to go to ukraine, and i think he canceled a trip. but, you know, rudy has other clients other than me. >> some real similarities there, natasha. >> chris, it's so funny that you just played that clip because all that i've been thinking about all day is how much deja vu this is all giving me with regard to michael cohen and rudy giuliani, the president's two personal lawyers who have really become and ultimately became his fixers. there really is no lawyer-client relationship between giuliani and the president anymore if there ever was one. i get the sense, you know, from speaking to sources and just having reported on this story for so long that it's more about having the attorney-client privilege and kind of shielding their communications and allowing giuliani to go forward and

no, no, no, he is playing the role michael cohen once filled. he is trump's fixer and his bag man but for free. and that is why giuliani is at the center of this whole thing. he was running point on the trump scheme to extort ukraine and get them to dig up and manufacture dirt on the president's political rival. if there are two themes that constantly come through in every single impeachment investigation transcript that we get it's that number one, there was a sprawling energetic corrupt attempt and two rudy giuliani was running that corrupt extortion attempt. today we got our latest example of that in the release of the deposition transcript of the deputy assistant secretary george kent, and the department of state i read from that, mr. giuliani had been carrying on a campaign for several months full of lies and incorrect information about the u.s. ambassador to ukraine, ambassador yovanovitch. it was clear the former mayor had influence on the president in terms of the way the president thought of ukraine. now, rudy giuliani was and is up to

michael cohen? >> tiny tiny little fraction. >> we know that's not true. michael cohen told us as much in his lengthy congressional testimony in february. cohen also talked about how he followed orders from trump on the stormy daniels payment. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no, no. >> that also is not true. in fact, cohen testified that trump instructed him to pay daniels during the 2016 campaign in exchange for her silence about an alleged affair with trump, which the president denies. >> manafort has nothing to do with our campaign. he was with the campaign for a very short period of time. mr. bannon came on very late. >> steve bannon was a key part of the trump victory. he joined the campaign as chief executive in august 2016 and was instrumental in energizing the base, which was a game changer. and paul manafort, his short period of time was actually five incredibly important months in 2016. manafort helped trump clench the gop nomination and fight back a mutiny

will you have ask michael cohen. i don't know. >> right, susan so the now familiar you'll have to ask -- insert name here -- the fact that we are now hearing this about rudy guiliani from the president, this the first sign she not only a backing away from rudy guiliani but he could ultimately throw him under the bus? >> well, he may try to do that before this is over. you saw that interesting comment from guiliani the other day, he implied he had so much information on trump that you know trump wouldn't abandon him. who knows what the true nature of that relationship is, i would say, from the beginning there is the frustrating aspect of this, that you have the story of the investigation, itself, and the facts as brendan pointed out, they have all tended to confirm in one direction. we've had 17 witnesses be every the house intelligence committee. 12 of them public. no one has debunked any significant element of this. in fact, we have learned more and more information. but the political dynamics are this parallel and

. >> why did michael cohen say that -- >> well you have to ask michael cohen. michael is my attorney and you'll have to ask michael cohen. >> reporter: but giuliani said there is no distance between he and the president. >> you can assume that i talk to him early and often. >> reporter: now, erica, part of the decision of whether or not they're going to send an attorney to that hearing in front of the hearing judiciary committee also comes as they're deciding if they'll suggest witnesses and what other factors play into this. this comes as the white house is spending the next few days mapping out their defense in the next phase of the impeachment inquiry. >> we look forward to that update. thank you. >>> joining me now, congresswoman debbie wassermann schultz of florida. good to have with us today. >> good to be with you. >> he said he didn't direct his attorney rudy giuliani to push ukraine for an investigation. are you concerned the president could be making rudy giuliani the fall guy here? >> you know, watching rudy giuliani and donald trump contradict thems

you think about michael cohen. who's michael cohen? essentially the president has said, you mentioned the call, hard for him to do this. there was a call i think he gave recently where he was like rudy giuliani has lots of clients. the president said he wasn't rudy giuliani's only client and he might be going to ukraine for all sorts of things. what do you think the president's move on this is, josh? >> the problem for the president is that rudy giuliani has briefed him repeatedly on work in ukraine. the president knew what rudy giuliani was doing in ukraine. in fact, rudy giuliani said to me this summer i told the president what i'm up to. he stays apprised of what i'm doing. the president is friends with rudy giuliani. >> they have known each other for years. >> he's considered himself a peer for years. you can distance yourself from his ukrainian work, maybe venezuela, a whole litany of countries, but at the end of the day he's been to the white house a considerable amount. he talks to the president all the time. he was a main defen

you've got of course michael cohen, paul manafort. now it looks like we would add roger stone to that list. >> juries can be strange. there's email evidence and written evidence here that could play in. we'll wait and see. i want to ask you specifically about two issues you're involved in. number one, the inspector general from the justice department looking into part of the overall russia investigation. we understand that witnesses are being contacted to look at this. the reports coming out soon. did you talk to michael horowitz or his people about this? >> i did. i cooperated with the inspector general at their request. it's probably better i don't speak about details of the investigation, but i expect that they'll likely be through with that process in the next few weeks. >> do you have any indication of what they might say? >> the justice department, we were led to believe was making a case against you for something they claimed was lack of candor in your discussions with the rks if bi. they haven't charged you yet. and there's a

shades here of michael cohen, chris. they're all going to stand in line -- >> a very charismatic man being that close to someone that powerful can bring strong feelings for people and make you do just about anything. >> until the president doesn't really know you, has got nothing to do with you. the same way the president turned on michael cohen, the president turned on lev parnas and now lev parnas wants to stand up and tell his story. rather like michael cohen, he's a flawed person. he's not got a perfect track record but his counsel will argue just because a person isn't a perfect person doesn't mean they don't have a true story to tell. >> one person who will have to read it very closely, which many of you may not think, ambassador sondland because this could be his future. if he has one understanding of why he did and said what he did that now takes him to a different place with the president, he's going to want to read this story. vicki ward, thank you for helping us understand what's in the morass a little better.

but doesn't look good for him either. —— paul manafort, michael cohen. it is tempting to think it is building, but i cannot help but think that will not be penetrated. well, impeachment, they will not get it through the senate. let's turn finally to the guardian. love the story, yet it is also very worrying asa story, yet it is also very worrying as a parent. 3.5 million young adults are still living at home. of course, adults are still living at home. of course , we adults are still living at home. of course, we noticed, but the 3.5 million figure is really startling. of course, you know, tuition fees have been hampering young people for a long time now. a competitive employment market, everything that has gone into creating this culture where people are coming home from university, if they have gone there, and they are not able to then move out again. 3.5 million, and the stories has meant a far more likely to stay with their parents, which i thought was particularly interesting. because they get that close washed and meals cooked. interesting. because

. >> this reminds me of how trump dealt with his former personal attorney michael cohen and the hush money payments. for a long time the argument was michael cohen was just free-lancing, he just did this to try to protect the president. he's a loyal soldier, but the president didn't ask him to do any of this. that turned out to be completely untrue the more that we dug into the evidence and then michael cohen turned around and testified i did this at the direction of president trump. he pulled out a check transcript and all kinds of things. so it's a very similar strategy that republicans are leaning on that somehow everybody is doing things to just get ahead of the president's needs and desires. but the other person who is also going to approve this to be untrue is rudy giuliani himself, who is embroiled in a separate criminal case and is trying to tie himself to president trump. trying to say everything that i did, i did on behalf of my client, donald trump. and if that is the case, giuliani is going to have to prove it. he's going to have to show that trump was in fact his client

cohen under the bus which is what michael cohen flipped on him, if you recall. >> michael cohen is serving a prison sentence. >> why hasn't the president yet as gloria said that being the operative three-letter word, is there something that rudy giuliani may know? >> well, one never knows and that whether there is an element of blackmail, but there's something else here. the president would have to admit error. the president has so far said the transcript was perfect, the policy was perfect. there was never a question and you can't throw the person under the bus if it was perfect. >> the president is out of box. one of the things i found striking was that dr. hill and david holmes gave us a seminar in u.s. policy with ukraine, a powerful statement and every member of the republican caucus agreed with that policy that they were describing. so it's very hard to make the argument that this was a dispute over policy. every member of the republican side agreed it was a bipartisan commitment to helping the ukrainians fight the russians and yet the president's policy was completely different, and

. >> we saw this before with michael cohen. the president turned on michael cohen. michael cohen even admonished everyone in the hearing in front of my committee on oversight that beware, trump will turn on you, too. so i fully expect president trump to start distancing himself from giuliani and the rest of them and arguably throwing them under the bus. >>> coming up, roger stone is on trial for lying and obstructing the investigation into russia's attack into our elections. and there's a big headline tonight from today's star wnl witness, steve bannon. according to "the washington post" bannon's testimony was, quote, the first time anyone affiliated with the trump campaign acknowledged in court that they had actively sought material from wikileaks. we're going to talk to a reporter who was at the courthouse today. that's next. reporter who was at courthouse today that's next. or could it play out differently? i wanted to help protect myself. my doctor recommended eliquis. eliquis is proven to treat and help prevent another dvt or pe blood clot. almost 98% of patien

donald trump speaks in code, according to michael cohen. so he doesn't say go bribe those people because i want the building. i want that building. we can make it happen, wink, wink. bureaucracy doesn't understand, but giuliani does. >> we call that circumstantial evidence. you have direct evidence where directly someone says something. in the event that i came in and spoke with brooke baldwin, it was dry outside but when i came back, there were puddles everywhere. i didn't see it raining, but guess what? there was a storm going on out there when i was in here. you look at the evidence and information. it doesn't matter what you say, it matters what the circumstances show and boy, does it show an awful lot. and people understand those nonverbal cues. it gets transmitted through the bureaucracy. i saw "the irishman" last night. it is full of them saying whack that man without actually saying it. >> on that note, thank you for the conversation. >>> we need to get to this. we've been talking about this breaking situation at schiphol airport in

and i think you mentioned this, michael cohen, paul manafort is another example, we see this over and over and over again in federal court -- or i should say in federal prosecutions. it doesn't surprise me that we would see it here too. >> it's interesting, john, the picture in some ways becomes clearer, you have this testimony that sinks up with the testimony provided by bill taylor and morrison which would seem to me -- i'm not a lawyer, but it would seem like cya testimony, you know their sworn testimony from witnesses that involves you. you make sure your account matches theirs. their stories have to match up when they get called before the principal. on the other hand, questions about his credibility now? >> yeah, again, i don't really -- i don't think this is as big of a conflict as it seems on the front side. you think about where you're headed now. we're headed in from the period of private fact gathering to public persuasion. democrats are looking at the situation. it looked like public opinion was moving in the direction of impeachment. the challenge that nancy pelosi and th

this has happened before with michael cohen. he was assured it wasn't going to be that big of a deal. things were fine. he stood by michael cohen and we saw how that ended up and how the president feels about him. with rudy giuliani, he and the president go way back. they have a different relationship than he had with michael cohen. you saw the president wavering after these two associates of giuliani's were indicted. now with the subpoena that cnn has seen, at least one of them, it gives you an example of how broad the investigation is for them and what federal prosecutors are looking at. and so that's the question because they are looking into rudy giuliani's consulting firm. his sources of income. the question is whether that turns in to be something problematic for the president. >> last night on ac360, i said to you, a u.s. attorney had never been indicted by the u.s. attorney's office that he used to lead. and scott therault emailed me and said you're wrong. otto kearner, the u.s. attorney in chicago, later the governor of

he may have to pay for his own defense like michael cohen did. what a lot of people around trump never seem to realize and the painful things that yovanovitch have gone for, as chris mentioned, he's not loyal to anybody. at some point you have to pay for your own defense. at some point someone is going to go down. rudy giuliani is the number one person to get in trouble. donald trump is going to say, regardless of how many pictures and selfies he's met with him, i never met rudy giuliani. he'll claim he was operating on his own in ukraine and he had nothing to do with this. that's why he's probably so desperate and has to make friends. he will be the one hung out to dry. >> is there a scenario in this season, season three, rudy is michael cohen and donald trump is an unindicted co-conspirator again, not in a hush money scheme but an illegal shakedown in ukraine? >> that's possible. you have to remember the president has something that most subjects or targets don't have which is he has the power to pardon. if you're thinking that rudy giuliani mi

it was when it became clear that michael cohen was going to say things unfavorable to president trump. i think that would be the point at which you see a break. i think they do not want that unless that presents itself. >> i think the giuliani thing is so fascinating because giuliani is complicated, obviously, because he was drumming up business for himself over there. and the president said as much. the president has begun alluding to that. i don't know why rudy giuliani went there. i know he has a lot of business dealings over in ukraine. true. >> that helps him to say. if you are arguing that giuliani may have been out there operating on his own and not for me. and the fact he had all of these other potential pieces of client work with ukraine government officials helps him. >> for sure. so i'm just saying it gets complicated because if rudy doesn't want that narrative depicted -- >> might be out of his hands at this point given the wealth of evidence. >> what was the white house response to the decision regarding don mcgahn being forced to testify. they're appealing it. buys them

of course michael cohen is now in prison after committing crimes he pleaded guilty to on behalf of trump. that makes me wonder, remember the president names two people in the call notes, right? so we know what giuliani was up to because almost all the people have been testifying ability his corrupt behavior. but what about the other guy? what was attorney general william bar up to? did he throw it out without discussing with him first? is there anyone at the department of justice taken the kind of steps those in the state department were forced into taking, taking contemporaneous notes and raising red flags about inappropriate behavior? those are oech questions. we have had people who have testified but no one yet from the justice department. we do know william barr has generally viewed his role of attorney general to be that of personally defending and protecting the president politically. remember he spun the mueller report for trump, went out and announced there was no obstruction despite evidence to the contrary. his own doj shutdown the criminal analysis of the ukraine call notes an

when the president's first personal lawyer michael cohen was sent to federal prison, that was in part for campaign finance felonies that federal prosecutors said had been committed not only to benefit president trump's re-election campaign, but those felonies had been directed by president trump. according to federal prosecutors in the cohen case, it was president trump who directed the commission of the felonies for which cohen was convicted. cohen is one of the people who carried out that criminal scheme after being told to do so by the president. that's why he went to jail. the president, himself, was not criminally charged. presumably because under justice department policy, a president can't be criminally charged. but that case is still alive. whether or not it's still alive is a matter of federal prosecution in the southern district of new york. the new york district attorney has essentially picked up that case under state law because under state law, that whole scheme for which michael cohen has already gone to federal prison, it might also be a state law criminal violation, pa

we saw it with michael cohen. >> yep. >> the president turned on michael cohen. michael cohen even admonished everyone in the hearing in front of my committee on overside that beware, trump will turn on you, too. i fully expect president trump to start distancing himself from giuliani and rest of them, and arguably throwing him under the bus. >> meanwhile, democrats are now gearing up to officially enter the next phase of their impeachment inquiry with public hearings scheduled for next week from three key witnesses there that you see on the screen. the timeline now coming into clear focus as house democrats deny -- sorry, the house democrat denny heck tells cnn they're setting a target of wrapping the weeks' long investigation up by christmas. as the inquiry ramps up, so are the president's attacks of democrats. >> they're the pillars of our justice system and judicial system in their pursuit of power and money. imagine if democrats just put 10% of the energy they devote to attacking me and my administration to instead making in a better country. >> joining me f

as amning michael cohen rat because he was quite grating with authorities. attacking other witnesses that come forward suggesting that we ought to treat those like the whistleblower who exposed wrongdoing in his administration, as we treat traitors and spies. used to execute traitors and spies. this is part of a pattern to intimidate witnesses. and it is also part of a pattern to obstruct the investigation. the patternpart of to obstruct justice. and so, we need to view the president's actions today as part of a broader and incriminating pattern of conduct. >> [indiscernible] >> well, the second hearing, third witness. the third witness that had no firsthand knowledge of the subject that is supposed to be the focus of this entire inquiry. the third witness that never talked to the president or chief of staff aldean he and was not on the call. the third witness that was not even in ukraine when the relevant -- during the relevant time frame. before even left president zelinski had been inaugurated as the new president. -- four facts that have not changed. we

toattern that goes back praising paul manafort for not cooperating, condemning michael cohen because he was cooperating with authorities, attacking other witnesses who come forward, suggesting we ought to treat those like the whistleblower who exposed wrongdoing, as we treat traders and-- as we treat traitors spies. this is part of a pattern to intimidate witnesses. it is also part of the pattern to abstract investigation. was also part of a pattern to obstruct justice. need to view the action today as part of a broader and committing pattern of conduct. [indiscernible] >> second hearing, third witness. third witness who has no first-hand knowledge of the subject that is supposed to be the focus of this inquiry. third witness who never spoke with mo vania, third witness -- with rick molina, third witness who was not on the call. third witness who was not even in the room during the relevant timeframe. i say this every time. four facts that will never change. we got the call transcript. there was no conditionality or linkage. have the two individuals on the call who both said there wa

the roger stone, seven counts was it he was found guilty, manafort is in prison, michael cohen the president's lawyer is in prison. there is so much wrongdoing attached with all of this but we have to keep it very precise in terms of the president of the united states and the constitution of the united states and that is what this is about and it is very serious and none of us came here to impeach a president. this is very sad. at the same time, as i say, we are trying to pass a trade bill, pass our appropriations bills, voting rights act, whether it is background checks, climate action now, it will pay for equal work, raising the minimum wage, all of the issues that we are working on for the good of the american people. so this -- while this is a concentration of our conversation here, it is not what we do on a day. >> brennan: you met with the treasury secretary this week. he said the white house has no intention of allowing another government shutdown. >> agreed. we are all in agreement. >> brennan: are you confident you can avoid one? >> well, let us hope, left to their own devices, the ap

same thing trump said about michael cohen by the way. he's got lots of clients. didn't turn out michael cohen actually had that many clients. really good guy. crime fighter. corruption fighter. all that. this -- this seems to be the unwinding of this. >> yes. we're one day away i think from rudy giuliani hardly knew the guy. these are the serial sort of excuses he uses. there is a very interesting tension here. on one hand, the more clients and the more hats, as danny said, that giuliani is using. the more there is room for trump to argue, well, maybe he was doing all these crazy things at someone else's behest. maybe it wasn't for me. that's not a bad argument if you're trying to make a case for someone who doesn't have much of a defense. on the other hand, we know from trump, he was telling everyone go talk to rudy. he told that to the president of ukraine. he told that to sondland. everyone was told go talk to rudy. so i think rudy giuliani obviously is an important link. but the notion that he was operating for somebody else and not the president is going to

if you think about michael cohen, paul manafort, rick gates, michael flynn, george papadopoulos and roger stone, who is the most dangerous to donald trump? because he's got to now be thinking pardons. he just pardoned three former military members on war crimes charges. he does use a pardon every so often to tell a story. >> i'm a former army officer before i became a federal prosecutor so the fact that trump is pardoning war criminals, one, it's a miscalculation on his party because the military will never rise up to support donald trump once he is dethroned. and, two, it does a disservice to all of the law-abiding military members who are deployed who are following the rules of engagement. they are now more at risk because of donald trump's pardons of war criminals than they were ever before. but with respect to who is the most dangerous to trump? i think stone is extremely dangerous. and i'm going to part ways with sam because, yeah, stone is all big and strong and he'll never flip on the president. we just saw a clip where he was big and strong, when he was looking into the camera pro

cohen. he may be another rat and another snitch in trump's book because he knows a lot, stone. people who are 67 -- i'm a criminal defense attorney. they really don't want to go to prison. it's one thing to clown around the way that he did. it's another thing to go to trial. it's another thing to be looking at federal prison when you're 67, 68 years old. he's facing 20 years. he won't get 20 years, but he's face ago chunk of time and he went to trial. i don't think any of it made a good impression on the sentencing judge. >> and, of course, six associates of the president have been convicted of crimes since he took office, too. it was interesting, though, talking about spending time in jail pretty much immediately after the verdict you had the president tweeting about the conviction by a jury of his peers saying it was unfair. and, of course, in recent months, he has reportedly weighed pardoning roger stone if he was convicted. what would that look like, though, optics wise? >> optics, it wo

he joins paul manafort, rick gates, michael cohen. what's the significance of this verdict, do you think? >> it's certainly a victory for the rule of law and facts matter and you can't go into congress and lie. it's also important because this one actually involves the president. there was nothing roger stone was doing with respect to wikileaks that was inherently illegal. it was the lying to cover up for the president and the fact he and members of his campaign knew about this, they were gleeful about this, happy about getting this information from wikileaks. that's what he was hiding and covering up. that's why he's going to prison. >> he's a sort of conduit between the trump campaign and wikileaks, right? >> and he wouldn't admit that because he knew that would hurt the president. >> let's talk about ambassador gordon sondland's testimony next week. how do you expect him to handle this next week given what we've seen already with stone and the back of his mind now. >> i would expect what we saw today and how seriously prosecutors a

>> you seem pretty excited about that but wouldn't you think michael cohen would have a whole lot of incriminating evidence against the president and michael is sitting in jail and the president is at mar-a-lago. >> do you think rudy wants to sit in federal prison like michael cohen is with all those people he put there when he was u.s. attorney? that's not a hospitable environment for rudy giuliani. >> okay. around the horn quickly. big week for democrats moving into the next phase of the impeachment inquiry. what are you looking for? >> the judiciary committee now -- the democrats have some challenges here. one, there's a risk of sort of a dilution of shock value. the first couple of big swings came over the last couple of weeks. adam schiff became the central figure in all of this and now nasdaq which shard act to follow. i also think is this reaffirmed? who will come forward again? we'll see the same cast characters or will new people come and tell stories? >> what do you think? >> same. i would echo what mark just said. will there be new witnesses? we've heard a lot but thought

>> michael cohen said -- >> michael cohen. >> this is michael cohen who is in prison at the moment. he doesn't give you orders. he speaks in code and i understand that code because i've been around him for a decade. so when they say i assumed, it's the code that they're talking about. . for those of you just joining us we're talking about the impeachment hearings. >> you asked if he was nervous. i don't think he is. you have apoll that was taken yesterday, 90% of republicans still support him. >> why is that, do you think? >> well, i think meghan makes a good point. until you can point to a crime that was committed by the -- >> baloney, baloney. >> here's the thing though, i do think that -- >> but you see that what he did was -- >> i'm very alarmed by all of this. and i've said this. i've been consistent. it's very, very troubling. but i also think that it's a problem for democrats because -- >> but why don't you think that republicans see it as troubling as you see it? >> they don't see a direct crime committed by the president yet? >> do you? >> i don't see a crime that was commi

michael cohen told us as much in his congressional testimony in february cohen also talked about how he followed orders from trump on the stormy daniels payment. also is no true in fact cohen testified that trump instructed him to pay daniels during the 2016 campaign in exchange for her silence about an alleged affair with trump which the president denies manafort has nothing to do with our campaign he was with the campaign as you know for a very short period of time mister bennett came on very late, we know the president doesn't like to share the spotlight. but steve bannon wa a key part of the trump victory. he joined the august of s chief executive in 2016. >>and was instrumental in energizing the base which was a a game changer. >>and paul manafort his short period of time was actually 5 incredibly important months of 2016. manafort help trump clinched the gop nomination and fight back a mutiny at the republican national convention. that's a big deal. >>hardly know the gentleman. >>now we've moved into the impeachment inquiry, the president called gordon sondland a great american