lutsenko later retracted. mr. lutsenko said as a result of these allegations, ambassador yovanovitch would face serious problems in the united states. public opinion polls indicated that ukrainians generally did not believe mr. lutsenko's allegations. on march 22nd, president poroshenko issued a statement in support of ambas ons, mr.iuliani and others made a number of statements critical of ambassador yovanovitch, calling for her removal from office and questioning her integrity. he was making frequent public statements pushing for ukraine to investigate interference in the 2016 election and issues related to burisma and the bidens. for example, may 1st, 2019, the "new york times" reported mr. giuliani had, quote, discussed the burisma investigation and its intersection with the bidens with the ousted ukrainian prosecutor general and the current prosecutor. on may 9th, "new york times" reported that mr. giuliani said he planned to travel to ukraine to pursue investigations into the 2016 election interference and i

he said that mr. lutsenko was working with mayor giuliani through these two individuals, mr. parnas and mr. fruman, that they basically wanted to remove me from post, and that they were working on that. >> and did you have any awareness at that point in time of precisely why they were seeking your ouster? >> you know, i didn't understand that at all, because i had never met mr. parnas and mr. fruman. and so it was unclear to me why they were interested in doing this. >> were you especially influential implementing policies that stymied their interests in ukraine? or advocating for some sort of environment or policies that would be averse to them? >> i think that, umm, just the general idea that obviously u.s. ambassadors, u.s. embassies, one of our most important functions is to facilitate u.s. business abroad, right, whether it's trade, whether it's commerce. that's one of the things that we do. and -- but, you know, everything has to be above board. we believe in a level playing ground but we obviously advocate for u.s. business. these two individuals, with hindsight, what

lutsenko's allegations, mr. giuliani and others made a number oblic statements critical of ambassador yovanovitch questioning her intey office. mr. giuliani was also making frequent public statements pushing for ukraine to investigate interference in the 2016 election and issues related to burisma and the bidens. for example, on may 1, 2019 "the new york times" reported that mr. giuliani had, quote, discussed the burisma investigation and its intersection with the bidens with the ousted ukrainian prosecutor general and the current prosecutor. on may 9, "the new york times" reported that mr. giuliani said he planned to travel to ukraine to pursue investigations into the 2016 election interference and into the involvement of former vice president biden's son in a ukrainian gas company. over the next few months, mr. giuliani also issued a series of tweets asking, quote, why biden shouldn't be investigated, attacking, quote, zelensky, for being silent on t around this time, the ukrainian presidential e newcomer and

>> in ukraine, i think -- well, mr. lutsenko, the prosecutor general. mr. shokin, his predecessor certainly. >> and i believe you testified earlier that mr. lutsenko had a reputation for being corrupt. is that right? >> that's correct. >> let's go to one of the reporters breaking this story. matt zapatosky reporter for the "washington post." what are you learning? >> reporter: basically at the same time that rudy is working with mr. lutsenko on this effort to oust ambassador yovanovitch, to investigate the president's political opponents, rudy is trying to strike up a business deal with him. he's trying to arrange a contract where rudy's firm will get $200,000, or $300,000 as a retainer fee purportedly to do some work helping lutsenko with an asset recovery idea he wanted to do in the u.s. a little confusing there, but bottom line of the story is we're sort of learning what was in this for rudy? you know, he stood to make money getting in this business arranged if it were to have come to pass with mr. lutsenko and this also would have given mr. lutsenko kin

>> in ukraine, i think -- well, mr. lutsenko, the prosecutor general, and mr. shokin, his predecessor, certainly. >> at this time mr. lutsenko was the lead prosecutor general, is that right? >> that's correct. >> had president zelensky indicated whether or not he was going to keep him off after the election? >> he indicated he would not be keeping on mr. lutsenko. >> i believe you testified earlier that mr. lutsenko had a reputation for being corrupt, is that right? >> that's correct. o about your future as the ambassador to ukraine? >> well, he told me i needed to leave. >> what did he say? >> he said that -- there was a lot of back and forth, but ultimately he said th that, you know, every foreign service officer understands, the president has lost confidence in you. that was a terrible thing to hear. and i said, well, you know, i guess i have to go then. but no -- no real reason was offered as to why i had to leave and why it was being done in such a manner. >> did you have any indication that the state department had lost confidence in you? >> no. >> and we

yovanovitch: well, certainly mr. lutsenko, mr. shokin. i believe that there were also ukrainian-americans, mr. parnas and mr. furman, who have recently been indicted. goldman: they -- those were the two who have been indicted in new york? yovanovitch: southern district of new york. goldman: now, at the end of march, this effort by giuliani and his associates resulted in a series of articles in the hill publication that were based on allegations in part from lutsenko, the corrupt prosecutor general. and just to summarize some of these allegations, there were, among others, three different categories. one category included the attacks against you, which you referenced in your opening statement, including that you had badmouthed the president and had given the prosecutor general a do not prosecute list. there was another that included allegations of ukrainian interference in the 2016 election. and then there was a third that related to allegations concerning burisma and the bidens. does that -- is that accurate? yovanovitch: yeah. yes. goldm

following mr. lutsenko' allegations. mr. giuliani and others made a number of political statements critical of ambassador yovanovitch, questioning her integrity. mr. giuliani was also making frequent public statements pushing for ukraine to investigate interference in the 2016 election and issues related to burisma and the bidens. for example, on may 1st, 2019, the "new york times" reported that mr. giuliani had discussed the burisma investigation and its intersection with the bidens with the ousted ukrainian prosecutor general and the current prosecutor. it was reported that mr. giuliani said he planned to travel to ukraine to pursue investigations into the 2016 election interference and into the involvement of former vice president's son in a ukrainian gas company. over the next few months, mr. giuliani issued a series of tweets asking why biden shouldn't be investigated attacking the new president of ukraine zelensky for being silent on the 2016 election and biden investigations and containi this time the election was app

>> well, certainly mr. lutsenko, mr. shokin. i believe that there were also ukrainian americans, mr. freeman and another who have been indicted. >> the two who have been indicted in new york. >> the southern district of new york. >> now at the end of march this effort by giuliani and his associates resulted in a series of articles in the hill publication that were based on allegations in part from lutsenko, the corrupt prosecutor general, and just to summarize some of these allegations there were among others three different categories. one category included the attacks against you, which you referenced in your opening statement including that you had badmouthed the president and had given the prosecutor general a do not prosecute list. there was another that included allegations of ukrainian interference in the 2016 election, and then there was a third that related to allegations concerning burisma and the bidens. is that accurate? >> yeah, yes. >> were these articles and allegations then promoted by others associated with the

ahead of mr. lutsenko's political ally, president poroshenko. on may 20th, i was present for ambassador yovanovitch's third and final meeting with candidate zelensky, after the landslide victory the next day. as in her two prior meetings i atte attended, they had a cordial, pleasant conversation and signaled their mutual desire to work together. however, the negative narratives about ambassador yovanovitch had gained currency in the united states press, and on april 26th, ambassador yovanovitch departed for washington, d.c. where she learned she would be recalled early. the barrage of allegations directed at a career ambassador is unlike anything i have seen in my professional career. following president-elect zelensky's victory, our attention in the embassy focused on getting to know the incoming zelensky administration, and preparations for the inauguration scheduled for may 20th, the same day that ambassador yovanovitch departed post permanently. it quickly became clear that the white house was not prepared to show the level of support for th

following mr. lutsenko' allegations. mr. giuliani and others made a number of political statements critical of ambassador yovanovitch, questioning her integrity. mr. giuliani was also making frequent public statements pushing for ukraine to investigate interference in the 2016 election and issues related to burisma and the bidens. for example, on may 1st, 2019, the "new york times" reported that mr. giuliani had discussed the burisma investigation and its intersection with the bidens with the ousted ukrainian prosecutor general and the current prosecutor. it was reported that mr. giuliani said he planned to travel to ukraine to pursue investigations into the 2016 election interference and into the involvement of former vice president's son in a ukrainian gas company. over the next few months, mr. giuliani issued a series of tweets asking why biden shouldn't be investigated attacking the new president of ukraine zelensky for being silent on the 2016 election and biden investigations and containi this time the election was app

following mr. lutsenko's allegations mr. giuliani and others made a number of public statements critical of ambassador yovanovitch questioning her integrity and calling for her removal from office. mr. giuliani was also making frequent public statements pushing for ukraine to investigate interference in the 2016 election and issues related to burisma and the bidens. for example, on may 1, 2019 "the new york times" reported that mr. giuliani had quote discussed the burisma investigation and its intersection with the bidens with the ousted ukrainian prosecutor general and current prosecutor. may 9th "the new york times" reported mr. giuliani said he planned to travel to ukraine to pursue investigations into the 2016 election interference and into the involvement of former vice president biden's son in a ukrainian gas company. over the next few months mr. giuliani also issued a series of tweets asking quote why biden shouldn't be investigated, attacking quote the new president of ukraine zelensky for being silent on the 2016 el

>> well, certainly mr. lutsenko, mr. shulkin. i believe that there were also ukrainian-americans, mr. parnas and mr. fruman, who have recently been indicted. >> those were the two who have been indicted in new york. >> southern district of new york. >> now at the end of march this effort by giuliani and his associates resulted in a series of articles in "the hill" publication that were based on allegations in part from lutsenko, the corrupt prosecutor general, and just to summarize some of these allegations, there were among others three different categories. one category included the attacks against you which you referenced in your opening statement, including that you had bad-mouthed the president and had given the prosecutor general a do not prosecute list. there was another that included allegations of ukrainian interference in the 2016 election and then was a third that related to allegations concerning burisma and the bidens. does that -- is that accurate? >> yeah, yes. >> were these articles and allegations then promoted b

>> well, certainly mr. lutsenko, mr. shokin, i believe that there were also ukrainian-americans, mr. fruman and parnas. they have been indicted. >> those in new york? >> the southern district of new york. >> at the end of march, this effort by giuliani and his associates resulted in a series of articles in the hill publication that were based on allegations, in part, by lutsenko, the corrupt prosecutor general. just to summarize some of these allegations, there were among others, three different categories. one category included the attacks against you which you referenced in your opening statement including that you had bad- bad-mouthed the president and had given the prosecute general a do not prosecute list. there was another that included allegations of ukrainian interference in the 2016 election, and then there was a third related to concerted allegations against burisma and the bidens. is that correct? >> yes. yes. >> were those allegations promo promoted by others associated with the president of the united states

>> are you saying mr. lutsenko? >> yes. did mr. lutsenko have much credibility within the zelensky regime? the current regime? >> i don't think so. >> he did not. and to do you know of any other ukrainians that mr. giuliani was meeting with that was part of the zelensky regime? >> just to her mind, i would have already left ukraine by that point. i'm not aware. >> even with the administration to come. zelensky won the election, there was a two-month period of preparing to be installed in the president, even during that time, were you aware of any -- >> there is one of the oligarchs as we have heard about. one of the oligarchs is named, who met with mr. sherman and parnas to get a meeting with rudy giuliani. >> but those are not people in the zelensky regime? >> no. >> mr. chairman, i yield back. >> mr. castro. >> thank you chairman, think you ambassador for your 32 years of service to our nation. a big question here today is why you were pushed aside as ambassador, for example, americans know that an employer has a right to fire an

mr. lutsenko's nomination to the position of prosecutor general. we were hoping he would clean that up. that, in fact, is not what happened. it's kind of hard to explain to a u.s. audience, but in ukraine and in the former soviet union more broadly, including in russia, the justice system -- whether it's cops on the beat, whether it's investigators, whether it's prosecutors, whether it's judges -- are used as a tool of the political system to be used against your political adversaries. i think, going back to your question about burisma and zlochevsky, my understanding -- this was, as i told you earlier, in the previous deposition, this did not loom large when i arrived. i arrived in 2016, august 2016. but over time my understanding was that the case was basically sort of on a pause. it wasn't an active case, but it also was not fully closed. that is a way, as i mentioned before, for those in power to keep a little hook into burisma and mr. zlochevsky. >> right around the time the bribe was paid, burisma undertook an effort to spruce up their board,

following mr. lutsenko's allegations, mr. giuliani and othered made a ns made a series statements calling for yovanovitch's removal from office. mr. giuliani was making frequent public statements pushing for ukraine to investigate interference in the 2016 election and issues related to burisma and the bidens. for example, on may 1st, 2019, "the new york times" reported that mr. giuliani had, quote, discussed the burisma investigation and its intersection with the bidens with the ousted ukrainian prosecutor general and the current prosecutor. on may 9th, "the new york times" reported that mr. giuliani said he planned to travel to ukraine to pursue investigations into the 2016 election interference and into the involvement of former vice president biden's son in a ukrainian gas company. over the next few months, mr. giuliani also issued a series of tweets asking, quote, why biden shouldn't be investigated, attacking, quote, the new president of ukraine zelensky for being silent on the 2016 election and biden investigations. and

why is it that you found mr. lutsenko not credible and told mr. giuliani so? >> thank you, mr. chairman. first off the allegations themselves including those against ambassador yovanovitch did not appear to me to be credible at all. i know her to be an incredibly competent professional. someone i've worked with for many years. the suggestion that she was acting in some inappropriate manner were not credible to me. i've known vice president biden for a long time. those accusations were not credible. and then separate from that, i also was aware of the political situation in ukraine. we had a situation where president porro senko appeared to not be in a favorable position going into the elections where it was increasingly apparent then-candidate zelensky was going to win. as is often the case in ukraine, a change in power would mean change in prosecutorial powers as well and there have been efforts in the past at prosecuting the previous government. i think mr. lutsenko in my estimation and i said this to mayor giuliani when i met with him, was interested in preserving his own po

>> in ukraine, i think -- well, mr. lutsenko, the prosecutor general. and mr. shokin, his predecessor certainly. >> and i believe you testified earlier that mr. lutsenko had a reputation for being corrupt. is that right? >> that's correct. >> jennifer rogers is back. jennifer, big picture this for me. why is this bit about giuliani going to try to work with lutsenko, make a couple hundred thousand dollars get information on the bidens, on ukraine, not russia interfering in the 2016 election and working in his own private interests with the president. why does this matter big picture? >> the very way you listed all the things he was doing kind of answers the question. you can't do things conflicting with each other as a lawyer. working for the president, conflicting with u.s. foreign policy. you can't run around and have ethical conflict if you're a lawyer. key to me here and we don't know yet exactly what the facts are. i think more information will come out. if there is to be criminal liability here it is likely to be part of this marie yovanovitch scheme, whe

following mr. lutsenko' allegations, mr. giuliani and others made a number of political statements critical of ambassador yovanovitch, questioning her integrity and removing her from office. mr. giuliani was also making frequent public statements pushing for ukraine to investigate interference in the 2016 election and issues related to burisma and the bidens. for example, on may 1st, 2019, the "new york times" reported that mr. giuliani had discussed the burisma investigation and its intersection with the bidens with the ousted ukrainian prosecutor general and the current prosecutor. reported thatas mr. giuliani said he planned to travel to ukraine to pursue investigations into the 2016 election interference and into the involvement of former vice president biden's son in a ukrainian gas company. over the next few months, mr. giuliani issued a series of tweets asking why biden shouldn't be investigated attacking the new president of ukraine zelensky for being silent on the 2016 election and biden investigations and complaini

lutsenko had laid out. most important for the ukrainian people but also the international community. the first thing was reforming the prosecutor's general office. it is tremendously powerful office where they had authorities not only to conduct investigations on fbi-like function but also to do the actual prosecution. so very, very wide powers which was part of that soviet legacy. and, there just was not a lot of progress in that and there was not a lot of progress in handling personnel issues and how the structure should be organized and who should have the important jobs because some of the people in those jobs were known, were considered to be corrupt themselves. secondly, the issue that was tremendously important to the ukrainian people bringing justin over the 100 people died. nobody had been held accountable for r ththat. >> that's an open wound for the ukrainian people. ukraine needs all the money that it had. there is a strong belief that former president yanakovich and those around him made $40 bi

. >> and was it mr. lutsenko among others who coordinated with mr. giuliani to peddle false accusations against you as well as the bidens? >> yes, that is my understanding. >> and were these smears also amplified by the president's son, donald trump jr. as well as certain hosts on fox? >> yes. yes, that is the case. >> in the face of this smear campaign, did colleagues at the state department try to get a statement of support for you from secretary pompeo? >> yes. >> were they successful? >> no. >> did you come to learn that they couldn't issue such a statement because they feared it would be undercut by the president? >> yes. >> and then were you told that though you had done nothing wrong, you did not enjoy the confidence of the president and could no longer serve as ambassador? >> yes, that's correct. >>, in fact, you flew home from kyiv on the same day of the inauguration as ukraine's new president? >> that's true. >> that inauguration was attended by three who become the three amigos, sondland, volker and perry? >> yes. >> three days after that

that's true. >> was it mr. lutsenko among others who coordinated with mr. guiliani to peddle false accusations against you as well as the bidens? >> yes. that is my understanding. >> and were these smears also amplified by the president's son donald trump jr. as well as certain hosts on fox? >> yes, yes. that is the case. >> in the face of this smear campaign did colleagues at the state department try to get a statement of support for you from secretary pompeo? >> yes. >> were they successful? >> no. >> did you come to learn that they couldn't issue such a statement because they feared it would be undercut by the president? >> yes. >> and then were you told that though you had done nothing wrong you did not enjoy the confidence of the president and could no longer serve as ambassador? >> yes, that is correct. >> and, in fact, you flew home from kiev on the same day as the inauguration of ukraine's new president? >> that's true. >> that inauguration was attended by three who have become known as the three amigos ambassador sondland, volker, and perry was it?

yovanovitch: so are you saying mr. lutsenko? rep. hurd: yes. did mr. lutsenko have much credibility within the zelensky regime, the current regime? ms. yovanovitch: i don't think so. rep. hurd: do you know of any other ukrainians that mr. giuliani was meeting with that was part of the zelensky regime? well, just toh: remind, i would have already left ukraine by then. rep. hurd: even with the administration to come, right, zelensky won the election, there was a two-month period of preparing to be installed as president, even during that time, were you aware of any -- ms. yovanovitch: i was -- so thee is an -- one of oligarchs, as we have heard umant, he met with mr. fr and mr. parnas. rep. hurd: they were not in the zelensky regime, right? ms. yovanovitch: no. rep. hurd: thank you, mr. chairman, and i yield back. >> thank you for being here today. the big question is why you were pushed aside. for example, americans know that employers have the right to fire employees, but they should not do it for certain reasons. you should not be fired because you ar

lutsenko. >> i believe you testified earlier that mr. lutsenko had a reputation for being corrupt, is that right? >> that's correct. >> now, during this conversation did the deputy secretary tell you about your future as the ambassador to ukraine? >> he told me i needed to leave. >> what did he say? >> he said that -- i mean, there was a lot of back and forth but ultimately he said the words that, you know, every foreign service officer understands, the president has lost confidence in you. that was, you know, a terrible thing to hear. and i said, well, you know, i guess i have to go then. but no real reason was offered as to why i had to leave and why it was being done in such a manner. >> did you have any indication that the state department had lost confidence in you? >> no. >> and were you provided any reason why the president lost confidence in you? >> no. >> now, you testified at your deposition that you were told at some point that secretary pompeo had tried to protect you but that he was no longer able to do that. were you aware

why is it you found mr. lutsenko not credible and told mr. giuliani so? >> thank queyou, mr. chairman. first all, allegations, themselves, including those against ambassador yovanovitch did not appear to me to be credible at all. i know her to be an incredibly competent professional. someone i worked with for many, many years. the suggestions that she was acting in some inappropriate manner were not credible to me. i've known vice president biden for a long time. those accusations were not credible. separate from that, i also was aware of the political situation in ukraine. we had a situation where president poroshenko appeared to not be in a favorable position going into the elections where it was increasingly apparent then-candidate zelensky was going to win. as is often the case in ukraine, a change in power would mean change in prosecutorial powers as well. and there have been efforts in the past at prosecuting the previous government. i think mr. lutsenko in my estimation, i said this to mayor giuliani when i met with him, was interested in preserving his own position. h

why is it that you found mr. lutsenko not credible and told mr. giuliani so? >> thank you, mr. chairman, the allegations themselves including those against ambassador yovanovitch did not appear to me to be credible at all. i know her to be an incredibly competent professional. someone i worked with for many, many years t the suggestions that she was acting in some inappropriate manner were not credible to me. i have known vice president biden for a long time. those accusations were not credible. and then separate from that, i also was aware of the political situation in ukraine. we had a situation where the president appeared to not be in a favorable position going into the elections where it was increasingly apparent then candidate zelenskyy was going to win. as is often the case in ukraine, a change in power would mean change in prosecutoral pow irz and there rests in the past at prosecuting the previous government. i think mr. lutsenko and i said this to mayor giuliani was interested in preserving his own position. he wanted to avoid being fired by a new government in order

he recommended that mr. lieutena lutsenko's replacement. ambassador bolton expressed frustration about ambassador sondland's expansive interpretation about his mandate. after president trump canceled his visit to warsaw, we finned to try to appeal to the president and foreign policy and national security terms. to that end, ambassador taylor told me that ambassador bolton recommended that he and ambassador taylor send a first person cable to secretary pompeo, articulating the importance of the security assistance. and ambassador taylor's direction, i drafted and transmated the cable on ambassador taylor's behalf on august 29th, which further attempted to explain the importance of ukraine and the security assistance to u.s. national security. by this point, however, my clear impression was that the security assistance hold was likely intended by the president either as an expression of dissatisfaction with the ukrainians, who had not yet agreed to the burisma biden investigation, or as an effort to increase the pressure on them to do so. on

lutsenko among others who coordinated with mr. giuliani to peddle false accusations against you as well as the bidens? >> yes, that is my understanding. >> the post and other outlets revealed today that around the same time that giuliani and lutsenko were smearing yovanovich in order to clear the way in part at least for trump's extortion scheme, legal agreements are drafted under which giuliani's company would have received more than $200,000 to represent lutsenko. in addition, another retainer agreement called for giuliani partners to receive another $300,000 in the ukrainian ministry of justice. those deals reportedly did not go through though federal prosecutors are reportedly now scrutinizing giuliani's ukrainian business dealings and finances as part of their broader probe into giuliani's alleged corruption. today giuliani claimed that he did not pursue a business opportunity in ukraine, and on sunday after "the wall street journal" reported he had been set to personally profit from a natural gas pipeline in ukraine, another

and what do we see about mr. lutsenko and his predecess predecessor? what does the president have to say about one of these corrupt former prosecutors? he praises them! he says they were treated very unfairly! that is not anticorruption, that is corruption. and when ambassador sondland testified today that there was unquestionably a quid pro quo and everybody knew it, conditioning a white house meeting that ukraine desperately wanted to show, his friend and foe that had support of the new president of the united states when that was conditioned, that official act was conditioned on the receipt of things of value to the president, political investigations. that was not anticorruption, that was corruption. and when ambassador sondland testified today that he could put two and two together, and so can we that there was also a quid pro quo in the military aid, that aid was not going to be released unless they did a public statement. ukraine did a public statement of the political investigations, the president wanted, that is not anticorruption, that is cor

. >> was it mr. lutsenko, among others, who coordinated with mr. giuliani to peddle false accusations against you, as well as the bidens? >> yes, that is my understanding. >> reporter: the state department said she did nothing wrong, but the president still called her "bad news" according to the summary of a july call with ukraine's leader. >> a person who saw me actually reading the transcript said that the color drained from my face. i think i even had a physical reaction. >> what did you think when president trump told president zelensky, and you read that you were going "to go through some things?" >> it kind of felt like a vague threat, and so i wondered what that meant. it concerned me. >> reporter: republicans argued her testimony was irrelevant, because yovanovitch was recalled before mr. trump suddenly withheld military aid to ukraine, the act at the heart of this inquiry. >> i'm not exactly sure what the ambassador is doing here today. >> reporter: but democrats say her removal allowed someone else to step in. >> hi, i'm gordon sondland.

i think you indicated earlier that was a likely reference to mr. lutsenko. is that right? >> i believe that is the case, but i don't know. >> immediately after the president brings up this corrupt former prosecutor , the only one my sophistry to me, the only american abbasid brought up in the call when he brings up that he was being treated very unfairly, he then encourages zelensky to speak with giuliani, the guy who orchestrated the smear campaign against you, correct? >> yes. >> he then brings you up. so he praises the corrupt prosecutor, he says, "i want you to talk to giuliani." the guy who smeared you. and then he brings up. he obviously thought you were relevant to this. what is even more telling is, immediately after he brings you up and says you, "the woman was bad news," he says there is a lot to talk about about biden's son. that biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that. so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great. immediately after praising this corrupt prosecutor, he attacks you and then goes right to bi

. >> i am aware that he met with mr. lutsenko. >> that's not within the current regime in which -- in which we are talking about. >> i don't know who else he would have met with. in as few words as possible what was your understanding of ambassador sondland's role in ukraine. >> he cared about ukraine. he wanted to see u.s. support for ukraine increased and he wanted to see european union support for ukraine increased and he wanted to be helpful. >> was ambassador sondland having conversations with officials without letting people know. >> i don't believe he was not letting people know. i think he may have had some conversations, but i think he was just acting, you know, and i think we circled back quite frequently with myself, ambassador taylor and others. >> can you say that you have a clear understanding of when ambassador sondland and mayor giuliani were doing in all their interactions with ukrainian officials. i can't say that i had a clear understanding. i thought that ambassador sondland and i were working on the

lutsenko to do what they said they were going to do, and mr. lutsenko entered office, that is going to clean up the pgo and make reforms, that he was going to bring justice to what they call -- the people who died on the maidan in 2016 -- 2014, the revolution of dignity. and he was going to prosecute cases to repatriate the approximately $40 billion it's believed the former president yovanovitch and his cronies fled the country with. and he didn't do any of that. and we kept on trying to encourage him to do the right thing. that's what ukraine if people want him to do, and we thought it was a good plan and that he should get. >> you to make you contacted the state department in late march. is that undersecretary hailed? >> so contacted about what? >> about the concerns you had about the campaigns against you. >> i contacted the state department much earlier than that. it was an ongoing sort of discussion makes a sound very formal and we have many ways of going back and forth with washington, and so, you know, on phone calls, we would have the d

why is it you found mr. lutsenko not credible and told mr. giuliani so? >> thank queyou, mr. chairman. first all, allegations, themselves, including those against ambassador yovanovitch did not appear to me to be credible at all. i know her to be an incredibly competent professional. someone i worked with for many, many years. the suggestions that she was acting in some inappropriate manner were not credible to me. i've known vice president biden for a long time. those accusations were not credible. separate from that, i also was aware of the political situation in ukraine. we had a situation where president poroshenko appeared to not be in a favorable position going into the elections where it was increasingly apparent then-candidate zelensky was going to win. as is often the case in ukraine, a change in power would mean change in prosecutorial powers as well. and there have been efforts in the past at prosecuting the previous government. i think mr. lutsenko in my estimation, i said this to mayor giuliani when i met with him, was interested in preserving his own position. h

why is it you found mr. lutsenko not credible and told mr. giuliani so? >> thank queyou, mr. chairman. first all, allegations, themselves, including those against ambassador yovanovitch did not appear to me to be credible at all. i know her to be an incredibly competent professional. someone i worked with for many, many years. the suggestions that she was acting in some inappropriate manner were not credible to me. i've known vice president biden for a long time. those accusations were not credible. separate from that, i also was aware of the political situation in ukraine. we had a situation where president poroshenko appeared to not be in a favorable position going into the elections where it was increasingly apparent then-candidate zelensky was going to win. as is often the case in ukraine, a change in power would mean change in prosecutorial powers as well. and there have been efforts in the past at prosecuting the previous government. i think mr. lutsenko in my estimation, i said this to mayor giuliani when i met with him, was interested in preserving his own position. h

lutsenko's allegations. and mr. lieu send company utsen clients of rudy giuliani. so the bottom line again, we have a witness saying, look, this is what happened. yovanovitch herself responded to what the whistleblower said by saying that there is a lot of concern for me, that i needed to be on the next plane home to washington. so i was like what happened? and she said i don't know, but this is about your security. you need to come home immediately. and she said you need to come home on the next plane and i said physical security and on and on it goes. bottom line, you can see the th saying about being yanked out of that job. she believes that she was standing in the way of something that the president's people wanted to do in ukraine, again, supporting the idea that there was this sort of shadow state department action going on through his private attorney, not through the official channels that are sanctioned by the government and by proxy by the taxpayers. >> and side note on all of this, just an aside, is by all accounts, ambassador yovanovitch was doing the j

he replied, that was based on an interview with mr. lutsenko. >> and if not entirely made up, was primarily nontrue. let's discuss now. good evening. you've been doing a lot of research into this. how closely woven is this? >> i think right wing media's finger prints are all over this. this is where the seeds were laid in march and april before most of us have heard about the crazy conspiracy theories and about the prospect of interfering in ukrain. i think sean hannity and tucker carlson are certainly involved. and john solomon who did work for the hill no longer does. he is now a paid fox contributor. he worked to get this stuff in the media and the result is what we're seeing now, the president has bought into a phoney line of thinking about ukrain and that may well end up ruining his presidency. >> the monitors in our office are different. it's like a big scoop and this is going to happen and theyler investigating this and this and then -- >> it never comes. it's always tune in tomorrow. part of this alternative universe of informa

lutsenko in ukraine. if people see that i who have been, you know, promoting our policies on anticorruption, if they can undermine me and get me hold out of ukraine, what does that mean for our policy? do we still have the same policy? how are we going to formally put that forward, number one. number two, when other countries, other actors and other countries see that private interests, foreign interests can come together and get a u.s. ambassador removed, what's going to stop them from doing that in a future in other countries? often the work we do we try to be diplomatic about it, but as deputy assistant secretary george kent said, sometimes we can get people really angry with us. uncomfortable. and we are doing our job but sometimes people become very angry with us. and if they realize that they can just remove us, they are going to do that. >> how did the deputy secretary respond? >> he said those were good questions, and he would get back to me. >> did he ever get back to you? >> he asked to see me t

lutsenko. public opinion polls indicated that ukrainians did not believe the laelgss. following the allegations they asked her integrity and questioned removing her from office. she was also making public statements for the interference in ukraine and issues relaced to buresma and the bidens. on may 1st, 2019, the "new york times" reports that rudy giulia giuliani ousted the republicans. mr. giuliani said he was part of the involvement w of former vic president biden's son in a you kranian gas company. in the next few months, mr. giuliani also issue add series of a tweets asking why biden should not be investigated attacking the new president of ukraine for being silent on the 2016 election and biden nexts and complaining for the "new york times" for attacking him. around this time the ukrainian presidential election was approaching and a political newcomer, president zelensky was surging in the polls. on april 20th, i was present for the third and final meeting with thenme candidate zelensky. as in the two pyrer meetings, they had an entirely pleasant conversation and

. >> and i believe you also said that president lutsenko was the source of some of mr. giuliani's public views and allegations, is that right? >> yes, sir. so about two weeks before the press kind of wave that we saw targeting ambassador yovanovitch became public, an embassy contact reported to us privately that mr. lutsenko was sending thesenk messages and had met wi an american journalist to try to get those messages out. >> what was the u.s. embassy in ukraine's view of prosecutor general lutsenko? >> he was not a good partner. he had failed to deliver on the promised reforms that he had committed to when he took office. and he was using his office to insulate andic protect politica allies while presumably enriching himself. >> anotheren way to describe th corrupt? >> yes. >> now i'm going to take a look at a couple excerpts from this july 25th call with you and the first one occurs right after president zelensky thanked president trump for the united states' support in the area of defense. president trump immediately then says, i would like you to do us a favor, tho

mr. giuliani was pushing. gordon sondland has already amended hisre first version of closed-door testimony once, and in plain english here, he now has a lot of explaining to do. we will hear from gordon sondland himself whether he testifies in public on wednesday. that p brings us to today's ope hearing, the second in the impeachment investigation. as we mentioned, congress heard from ousted ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovich. she started with a description of her time as a diplomat representing our country. >> i have moved 13 times and served in seven different h countries, five of them hardship posts. my first tour was mogadishu, somalia, an increasingly t dangerous place as that a country's civil war kept s s grinding on. i helped open our embassy in uzbekistan. as we were establishing an relations with a new country, our small embassy was attacked by a gunman who sprayed the embassy building with gunfire. i later served in moscow. in 1993, during the attempted coup in russia, i wa

>> so are you saying mr. lutsenko? >> yes. >> that he -- could you -- >> so did mr. lutsenko have much credibility within the zelensky regime? current, the current regime? >> i don't think so. >> he didn't. do you know of any other ukrainians that mr. giuliani was meeting with that was part of the zelensky regime? >> just to remind, i would have already have left ukraine by that point so i'm not aware. >> even with the administration to come, right? zelensky won the election. there was a two-month period of preparing to be installed as president. even during that time were you aware of any -- >> there was, so there is a, one of the oligarchs as we've heard about, one of the oligarchs met with mr. fruman and mr. parnas when that was apparently to get a meeting for mr. giuliani. >> but those are not people actually in government or became in the zelensky regime. is that correct? >> no. >> okay. mr. chairman, i yield back. thank you. >> mr. castro. >> thank you, chairman an thank you ambassador for your 33 years of service to our nation. a big question here today is why

lutsenko. did they have documents written up? is there a signature on one of them? we have jennifer granholm and shann wu. take me through from least to greatest. ethical, campaign finance, fara. where's the line on each? >> let's start with campaign finance. if he is seeking the help of a foreign country to help in a domestic issue, a thing of value, that's the campaign finance violation. with regard to fara, a little more nuanced. if he concluded these deals where he was trying to work for the ukrainian government, then he would have had to register as a foreign agent for them. possible even if he didn't conclude the deals themselves that other documents would show he really was working for them since he apparently likes to work for free. >> when do you have to register? let's role play it for people. i'm the ukraine guy. rudy, help me, i want to get meetings, i'm a big shot ukrainian, i'm big in ukrainian politics, i'm mr. lutsenko. go hook he up with bar and your friends. >> i need to regis

lutsenko has any gravitas within the zelensky regime? >> i don't know. he was the old attorney general. >> ultimately got fired in august. >we know that mr. giuliani has met with yermak. do you know any other ukrainian official within the zelensky regime that mayor giuliani was meeting with? >> i don't know who mr. giuliani was meeting with. >> had you had any conversations with ukrainian officials within the zelensky regime that came to you and said hey, i just got off the phone with giuliani. what the hell is he talking about? >> i don't recall. >> would that be normal? in all your interactions with ambassadors and heads of states and governments, if there is some element of the u.s. government that they have spoken to, isn't it usually that they come in, talk to the ambassador, try to clarify the statement? is that a true characterization of high elements of diplomacy work. sticker that's a reasonable possibility. things work all kinds of different ways. >> when you met with president zelensky after the july 25 phone call. you met him on july 26, did

quoting her now, basically it was people in the ukrainian government who said that mr. lutsenko, the former prosecutor general, was in communication with mayor giuliani and that he had plans and that they were going to, you know, do things, including to me. it became clear, she said, that the goal was removing her from her post. one point of contention, her alleged role in blocking giuliani's effort to bring ousted ukrainian prosecutor viktor shokin to the u.s., apparently in pursuit of giuliani's political mission for the president. following longstanding protocol, an american consular officer denied him a visa because of his alleged ties to large-scale corruption. now, remember president trump and giuliani, they are now claiming that all they cared about was fighting corruption in ukraine. but the guy they are trying to bring to the u.s. is himself considered corrupt by diplomats who actually know about corruption in ukraine. ambassador yovanovitch picks up the story. quote, and the next thing we knew, mayor giuliani was calling the white house as well as the assistan

we get to what he was possibly contemplating being paid for. >> sure, we know that rudy giuliani and mr. lutsenko have a meeting in new york in january where they are talking about these issues that giuliani says he is pursuing on behalf of his client, the president of the united states. everything having to do with joe biden and ukraine as well as these unproven allegations that ukraine meddled. they had that meeting in january and meet once again in warsaw in february. our understanding is the first draft contract for lutsenko to represent giuliani comes in february. so it's right exactly in the same time frame and our understanding is these contracts go through various itrations as there's a contemnplation how these arrangements might work, who might be a formal recipient of the money, how much would be paid and that continues february through april. ultimately we've been told none of them has been fully executed and mr. giuliani would not receive payment. >> what that the makes us think, however, if this reporting is accurate, and i believe it is is that while he's having these inte

lutsenko and how bad it was. so it took a while for that all to happen. new president's sworn in. two months later, the new conference comes in and it takes them a while and it's not about september 5th, and gist a few days late later, but it's released and way this thing played out is, it eem seems to me as logical as you can do it, but if you put it on the broader framework, and his deep-rooted issue on the corruption in ukraine and the experience he had with high-ranking ukrainian officials criticizing him and supporting secretary clinton in the 2016 election. you put all of that together and i think it shows why it played out the way it did. with that, i would yield back, mr. chairman. >> mr. welch? >> thank you, mr. chairman. undersecretary hale, i want to go back to your support and affirmation of ambassador yovanovitch. what i understand, and by the way, thank you for that. our military, no soldier on the battlefield and those who are in leadership positions in the state department and our intelligence community have that bond of loyalty to each other and it's very reassuri

>> correct. >> mr. lutsenko, the former prosecutor general in ukraine, has made various claims about various americans, right? >> correct. >> you were unaware of any factual basis for his accusations against ambassador yovanovitch, right? >> correct. >> he also was a source for john solomon and "the hill," correct? >> that is correct. >> you said a key element of article as well as his accusations are false, correct? >> correct. >> lutsenko is not a credible source, correct? >> correct. >> sir, the other side claims there is absolutely no pressure on this july 25th phone call. i think that's we heard earlier, right? >> i believe so. >> and you have termed what president trump asked, in terms of the investigations on that phone call, is a demand. correct? >> correct. >> and you pointed out the large power disparity between president trump on the one hand and president zelensky on the other. correct? >> yes. >> there was pressure on that phone call, right? >> the ukrainians needed the meeting. the ukraini