what rudy giuliani is trying to do. mike pence, who didn't go to the inauguration of the ukrainian president as originally planned. rick perry, who did. right? bill barr has some awareness of what's going on. mike pompeo has awareness of what's going on, because he's normally the one in charge of the official track and rudy giuliani is off freelancing don his own thing actually the prevailing foreign policy at the behest of the president. >> authorized by the president to do his own thing. >> so we're seeing, this isn't just something that siloed with president trump and rudy giuliani. does that matter? >> mick mulvaney, and john bolton. right? >> he had awareness. certainly. he, according to one witness basically called it a drug deal and didn't want much to do with it but was aware. >> for me, one of the big questions. that all of these people were aware, it wasn't a secret. is anybody telling the president -- we don't know the answer to this -- did anybody say, look, you can't do this. there are problems with this. y

take a listen. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well you have to ask that to rudy. i don't know. i know he was going to go to ukraine and i think he cancelled a trip but rudy has other clients other than me. >> you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf? >> no. >> you didn't direct him to go there? what does it mean when a president chucks a lawyer like this over the board? maya wiley when we're back in 30 seconds, we'll get into it. in 0 seconds, we'll get into it >>> back with me is maya wiley. good to see you again. we touched on this earlier now. every one has been able to hear the president's answer. it strikes me as going farther than ask rudy. the president saying effectively, he claims, rudy giuliani wasn't doing stuff for him. quote, rudy's been working there for years. for every one that says it doesn't seem like the facts matter or press this white house, i would observe and i'm eager to hear your response that the incriminating facts that have added up about what was going on on the president's behalf in ukrain

as to rudy giuliani, on may 2030 president told you, talk to rudy giuliani. he talked him a couple of times as you told us, september top to the present a couple times. that the president ever tell you to stop talking to rudy giuliani? did he ever say don't any longer talk to him? no. on ukraine you said that you are playing the hand you're dealt. president trump was the dealer, wasn't he? president trump was what? the dealer. in your metaphor, you plainly hand you're dealt,... i will re-characterise your question by saying we follow the direction of the president because that was the only pathway to working with ukraine. on page four of your testimony you said, given what we know, given what we knew at the time, we were asked to do did not appear to be wrong. and you would angry now, ambassador, knowing what you know now, what she didn't know at the time, there are some things around ukraine that were wrong? i agree. so let's take out any leveraging of security assistance over the ukrainians any white house visit. would you agree that it white house visit. w

i think it does put rudy giuliani in the hot seat. we know from the may 23rd meeting when they go to trump and they there's a new leader in the ukraine. we got to work with him. we think you guys could be best buds. you're really going to like this guy and he goes, i don't like ukrainians. you talk to rudy. rudy knows what i want. that's my addition to the statement. why would you do that? why would you do that unless you want these guys the take advice that's outside the normal channel to get something for donald trump? it is the way a secretive and sometimes criminal organization works. the guy at the top doesn't tell you to do what's wrong. he goes, you talk to tony. he knows what i need to get done. >> as you say it's a consciousness of guilty that sondland is willing to nail donald trump for which is a fascinating development. anyone who said you seen it all before, you haven't seen this. what they do with it is the open question. thank you for being here. >>> ahead, we'll break down other key impeachment points and what they rev

giuliani personally, in regards to the -- the conversation that you played about rudy giuliani the hanukkah party. cnn reported this month that rudy giuliani lev parnas i go ignore fruman also arrested in conjonion with lev parnas recently they alleging that cnn alleged reported three melt with president at hanukkah party december 2018 cnn reporting not based on word of lev parnas it is based on two people acquaintances of lev parnas important to make ib when it comes to whoofrnt lev parnas is actually providing information against president or president's attorney however there is a subsequent story from cnn, furthered by daily beast in which loe.v parnas alleged that ranking member of the house intelligence committee devin nunes last year met with ukrainian prosecutor victor shokhin, and while nuÑez has rerefuted those claims, giuliani backed nunes as in the interview with ed henry. >> giuliani said during in a interview if nuns did meet either with him there would be nothing wrong with that. there was one other interesting maybe strange moment, during that interview, that ed henry had w

are you going to want to hear from rudy giuliani? if he does come up or say there is some quick court ruling that allows other people to testify, would that go to intel? or would it go to -- to judiciary? >> i don't think that's been determined. and i think speaker pelosi with chairman nadler and chairman schiff would make that decision. i -- i really don't think the courts are going to have anybody come in very soon. i think the trump team's going to continue to stonewall and appeal and appeal and appeal. and all of the folks we're talking about, bolton and mcgahn, have long-standing relationships with republicans. and have been -- bolton's got a book deal and mcgahn's got a law practice that are really dependent a lot upon their history in working with the republican team. they're not going to jeopardize that. you know, so i -- i don't see any great change coming in that cart. you might have these two -- these two fellows parnas and whatever his name is -- >> fruman. >> maybe they would be available. but i imagine -- and i imagine

you know rudy giuliani very well. rudy giuliani and this president go way back. how concerned do you think the president is right now that giuliani being possibly flip on him, too. >> i won't make prediction, but i know as a common practice, rudy giuliani was a former u.s. attorney when defendants or suspects are facing a time in jail and very often they're skeptical about their previous decisions and i'm not going to make predictions to say whether he will or will not flip on the president and it would have crossed the president's mind. >> we saw over 12 witnesses and over 30 hours of testimony all fact-based witnesses and many of your democratic colleagues say there's no doubt about it, these were all impeachable offenses and we have yet to see one of your republican colleagues say the same. does that alarm you? >> yes, it does. i think the evidence has been compelling and i feel many of them should adhere to constitution and not to political winds and we're all facing reelection this coming year and we should not be scoring political points and our compelling

plus, rudy giuliani's legal jeopardy is

giuliani when rudy giuliani was the head of the u.s. attorneys office in new york, the same office that is currently investigating him. and of course the life lesson is always be nice to the interns. you never know when you're going to need them. leading off our discussion tonight is democratic eric swalwell of california. he's a member of the house intelligence committee and the house judiciary committee. he attended george kent's deposition, and he attended jennifer williams' deposition today. congressman swalwell, thank you very much for joining us. really appreciate it. i want to begin for a moment with -- >> of course. and lawrence, as a former congressional -- a former congressional intern, that advice is absolutely right. >> i knew that was coming. i knew that was coming. good word for the interns. jennifer williams testifying today, what can you tell us about her willingness to testify and what resistance was put up or not in getting her to testify. >> well, i'll address what rachel read earlier and you alluded to in the opening

volker met with rudy giuliani? >> i don't. >> how many would you guess? >> i don't know. he tested back and forth with the mayor and he had a call or two. but it was not a persuasive investigation for ambassador volker. were you aware of that? >> i was aware of one breakfast, i think. that was the only one i was aware of. i want to circle back to the company of burisma, you hesit e hesitathesitat hesitated testified there was an instance where you had engage with parishion-- you took issue and recommended usaid to pull back. >> ser ptember of 2014. the part of the usa, the nation that worked on economics and government and including energy con spored some sort of contests for young ukrainians. they coupon sor-- given the pas history of our interests in recovering still an asset from mr. chesky. it was inappropriate for the embassy to be corespondering a contest with burisma. >> the u.s. ad mission kept the contest but dropped the public pa partnership and sponsorship. >> i will now move to five minutes memory m min

this is nikki haley tonight on the topic of rudy giuliani. was it appropriate based on everything for rudy giuliani, the president's personal lawyer, someone who had no security clearances to be engaged in what's being described as a shadow of diplomacy. >> i had during my time, i never saw rudy giuliani engaged in that way. it is best practice if you have a special envoy to handle certain area. i think they should named him special envoy. >> rick, is that the rosiest possible reading of the situation nor question, two. what is going on with nikki hal haley? >> you know i think nikki haley is missing those profound rules in life. tonight she gambles more of her credibility away by essentially you know putting her arms around rudy giuliani. a guy who's being dragged behind the bar because they're done with him. the trump people are trying to cut him lose. republicans and congress are blaming this thing on rudy giuliani. she's praising rudy giuliani at a moment where his stock is falling so far with trump personally and the trump's world. it is

is that the same rudy giuliani here? i'm not sure he butt dials reporters while making phone calls about foreign interactions. >> and cyber security genius, let's remember, as well. it's sad when you step back for a minute because he was a legendary prosecutor in the southern district of new york. his portrait is up on the wall with other u.s. attorneys that served over the years. there's no way he's the same person now. he's changed. you wouldn't -- one thing they teach you at the southern district is you don't go anywhere near the line. if you're in a gray area, you get out of t. we used to say if you're asking, then you know you're in a gray area and get out of it immediately, right. so he is definitely in gray areas. the fact that he's under investigation by the southern district itself tells you he's come too close to the line. we'll see whether he crossed it or not. >> gray might be the brightest color he's dealing in here. >>> friends, stand by. we have more breaking news. "the new york times" released there is a

it's from one of rudy giuliani's recent tweets. frenzied dems proposed impeachment based on at real donald trump's acting under article 2, section 3 of the constitution, asking for an investigation of serious crime committed in 2016 that did great damage to u.s. and ukraine. dems are covering up because it's bigger than you think. giuliani wanted ukraine to investigate this discredited conspiracy theory about 2016. he's admitting to all of it right there, isn't he? >> well, exactly. and of course this gets to this conspiracy theory that ukraine was the source of the meddling or at least some meddling. and, you know, at the time when our original intelligence community assessment came out in early january '17 and briefed then president-elect trump on january 26th at trump tower, and he said, well, you know, it could have been china. it could have been a 400-pound guy in his bed in new jersey. and now we have another theory already debunked and discredited that it was ukraine. and it wasn't. i can tell you that contemporaneously ther

of the details of rudy giuliani's canceled trip. it was only canceled because of speculation but that contradicts what the president himself said in a white house transcript that the president himself ordered to be released. in that transcript of the july 25th call with the ukrainian president you see not once or twice, but three times where the president tells the ukrainian leader he's going to have rudy giuliani, his personal attorney, call him. not only does he mention the attorney but he mentioned giuliani three times. but he's not contradicting himself but contradicting the sworn testimony of the ambassador to the european union and a public statement to reporters from his own acting chief of staff mick mulvaney. >> i followed the directions of the president. we worked with mr. giuliani because the president directed us to do so. >> you may not like the fact that giuliani was involved. that's great. that's fine. it is not illegal. it is not impeachable. the president gets to use who he wants to use. >> reporter: so you see ther

the ukraine policy and the role of rudy giuliani and rudy giuliani, some of these people, there is a good reason why he lawyered up, don. he could be in great legal jeopardy. they're going to be just box full of surprises around every corner. >> douglas brinkley. thank you sir. >> thanks don. good luck with your alabama. >> lsu. lsu! >> thank you, sir. >> a man from the ohio state. >> make sure you tune in on sunday. i am going to be hosting the impeachment inquiry on sunday night starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern. right here on cnn. te president making permissive pitch to black voters. >> blacks with trump. african-americans for trump. call it whatever the hell you want. >> here with us, hear what he has to say next. me and auto. sarah, get in the house. we're all here for you. all: all day, all night. (dramatic music) great job speaking calmly and clearly everyone. that's how you put a customer at ease. hey, did anyone else hear weird voices while they were in the corn? no. no. me either. whispering voice: jamie. what? it takes a village to raise to build a bridge. to throw a baseball.

because he was a law partner with rudy giuliani. he can't self-recuse -- >> berman is donald trump's appointee, a close ally of former white house counsel don mcgahn, overseeing the investigations into giuliani. i will add and we have to sneak? one more break. the justice department has sought to distance itself from rudy giuliani as a nod to -- i don't know if it's the seriousness of the investigation, but at least its existence. the head of the criminal division put out a statement, a rare state to kate benner in "the new york times" justice department correspondent said, if he had known that rudy giuliani was under investigation, he never would have met with him. is that extraordinary to you? >> yes. >> why would you do that? >> that's really extraordinary. first of all, if that's all it was, and it was that there was an investigation into rudy giuliani's associates, that's not a reason not to meet with a lawyer. so to me that statement clearly was indicating that rudy giuliani has a problem -- the department does not do that. to

the president would like you to think that rudy giuliani was doing rudy giuliani's business in ukraine. rudy giuliani seemed to go out of his way to say he was doing state department and the president's business in ukraine. and the president is on a record as having said to the president of ukraine, could you talk to rudy giuliani, please. >> you know, rudy giuliani, i think to the extent that he's telling the president not to go after him because he's kept the goods on the president, it probably comes down to this point about giuliani's authority and whether he was acting in essence as the president's agent in ukraine, no matter what kinds of lines of side business he was conducting. it looks like the evidence that democrats have put on the table so far is pretty compelling. peop people acted as though rudy giuliani was the nan charge for the president. the president told the president of ukraine not just once but repeatedly in their july 25th phone call, he needed to talk to rudy. we know the president does this, when people get in trouble, he throws them under the bus and distances

but how much trouble -- we know that rudy giuliani himself is being investigated. how much trouble potentially do you think that the former new york mayor, the president's private attorney is in right now? >> you know, i'm not a lawyer and i'm not privy to the investigation that is ongoing. but i will note that these two associates of his who were clearly known to donald trump have been indicted. and giuliani himself apparently is a subject of criminal investigation. though he has not yet been indicted for a crime. so we'll have to see how this plays out. but i would say that giuliani is in grave legal jeopardy. >> we contacted giuliani and i want to point out what you pointed out, he's not been accused of any criminal wrongdoing and he previously told cnn that he has not heard from prosecutors and his attorney robert costello could not immediately be reached for comment. but we'll follow these developments very, very closely. congressman connelly, thanks so much for joining us. >> my pleasure, wolf. >> we'll have a lot more on the late-breaking developments involv

how rudy giuliani rose to the point he did. where he became essentially the focal point of ukraine policy. not from official or regular channels but ukrainians thinking they needed to talk to kurt volker to get anything to the president to lock in a visit to the white house with the president and how to move forward on funding. one piece republicans telegraphed over the course of the last couple of weeks since his testimony say makes clear the president didn't do anything wrong in regards to a quid pro quo. kurt volker in his testimony says, to my knowledge the news about a hold on security a assistance did not get into ukraine circles until the end of august. by that time we dropped the idea of even looking at a statement. he's talking about in the statement, brooke, you've been going over it in terms of discussions between u.s. officials and ukrainian officials with rudy giuliani kind of on the outside weighing in about ukrainian officials releasing an official statement talking about the 2016 election and potential investiga

he did, however, meet with rudy giuliani. it's a prime example of how giuliani's position as president trump's pro bono lawyer has given him unprecedented access to foreign leaders and how those leaders treat him as a representative of the president. a cnn review finds giuliani has met or communicated with top government officials of at least seven countries since becoming trump's attorney. his actions so troubling, sources inside the u.s. state department tell cnn they track giuliani's comments which sometimes contradict u.s. policy. >> there are those in the state department and in the professional u.s. national security apparatus who view giuliani as a shadow secretary of state. >> reporter: giuliani left public office as new york's mayor back in 2001. since then he's made millions in speaking fees and security and consulting contracts all over the globe. being associated with donald trump has opened new doors at the top levels. he traveled to uruguay where he met with the president. got rare access to the king of bay rain

he did, however, meet with rudy giuliani. it's a prime example of how giuliani's position as president trump's pro bono lawyer has given him access to foreign leaders and how the leaders treat him as a representative of the president. a cnn review finds giuliani has met or communicated with top government officials of at least 7 countries since becoming trump's attorney. his actions so troubling sources inside the u.s. state department tell cnn they tracked giuliani's comments which sometimes contradict u.s. policy. >> there are those in the state department and the professional national security apparatus who have viewed giuliani as a shadow secretary of state. >> reporter: giuliani left public office as new york's mayor in 2001. since then he's made millions in speaking fees and security and safety consulting contracts all over the globe. but being associated with donald trump has opened new doors at the top levels. he travelled to uruguay where he met the president. he got rare access to the king of bahrain and the crown p

rudy giuliani was all up in there. as we say. however, rudy giuliani was all over television for weeks. [laughs] he gave us information already. >> marie: he should testify publicly. >> harris: i felt like he did! [laughter] >> alex: we know it rudy giuliani did. we also know the state department and other people in the administration were really concerned about what rudy giuliani was doing. i think that is at the core of this and at some point the president might want to throw rudy giuliani under the bus. >> melissa: i would bet he's already considered that. i think that's coming. >> marie: rudy is not going to take out lying down, by the way. he probably has texts and emails and documents about the role he played in this, as do a lot of these witnesses. >> alex: the one thing i know about trump as he has no problem firing people even if they seem to have dirt on him. there are a lot of people. >> katie: when he says it's tied to the origins of the russia investigation on the corruption at all that, he did send bill barr to ital

giuliani or other administration officials who coordinated rudy giuliani violate the foreign corrupt practicing act? according to the d.o.j. web site's, the act prohibits the willful use of quote any payment or authorization of the payment unknowing that all or a portion of such money or thing of value will be offered, given or promised, to a foreign official, to influence the official. your thoughts? >> the problem is it is very broadly drafted and we don't have a lot of case law, or precedent to apply to know exactly when it applies. the other strange thing about fara, unlike most other criminal law, the defendant has to know he was violating fara in order to be held responsible. so that together and the amorphous kind of nature of fara makes it difficult to say, to look at a particular set of facts and say that is a fara violation. the exception of fara probably isn't something rudy can take advantage of, because it is very narrow, and it really only applies when you're acting as an attorney-type advocate in the context of say defending a client from a criminal case. so if federal

and despite rudy giuliani's denials, again we now have these emails that show rudy giuliani's assistant e-mailing president trump's then-assistant to organize this call with the secretary of state. what this really does is put a finer point on secretary of state mike pompeo's involvement in all of this. the secretary of state has really tried to stay as far away from this ukraine scandal as possible. despite that, though, beyond the e-mail with giuliani, we also know earlier this week from multiple officials who testified that mike pompeo was, indeed, in the loop at key moments of this effort by the president and his allies to pressure ukraine to carry out these investigations. the u.s. ambassador to the european union, gordon sondland, in particular said that mike pompeo was in the loop throughout. ana? >> reporting from the white house, thank you. >>> max boot joins us, cnn global affairs analyst and "washington post" columnist. max, you have pompeo talking to giuliani about these unfounded claims regarding biden. you also have the ranking of the house intel committee, devin nunes, al

what's going on with rudy giuliani? my next guest talked to people close to the former new york city mayor about what's behind his erratic behavior. >>> the greatest testimony from multiple trump administrations shedding light on rudy giuliani's role in a pressure ca campaign against the ukraine. and now the president's personal attorney finds himself under a mike scope as prosecutors are looking into possible crimes connected to rudy giuliani's work. joining me to discuss is michael bennett who co-wrote the title" the secretary of defense." so good to have both of you on. it's an important conversation considering how rudy giuliani is just involved in so many things when it comes to this president. brian, you first. all the trump administration's roads to ukraine seem to pass through giuliani. he pushed this unfounded story about the bidens and corruption to the president. his associates are under indictment for being middle men between the mayor and ukraine officials. and it's giuliani's back channel with the ukrainia

reflect for a moment, if you will, on the epic journey of rudy giuliani from u.s. attorney to mayor to now friend of lev and igor. >> u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york which is issues these subpoenas about him. there are former u.s. attorneys who have been prosecuted in the past, very, very rarely, but never, as far as i'm aware, by the office that they used to lead. let's again be clear. he is not accused of anything, and he certainly may never be. but this is certainly an unusual posture to find himself. by the way, he was also a two-term mayor of new york city, a person who led the polls for the republican presidential primary for some time. didn't win, but i mean this was a major national figure. >> jennifer, rudy giuliani, one of the things he keeps on saying -- and he claims it's a joke -- is that he's got an insurance policy in case the president turns on him. now, again, he says he's being sarcastic, but it's kind of weird, right? it does raise a whole bunch of questions of what's going on here. >> it's very strange, and the first time he s

ambassador called so rudy giuliani can get a client? even if there weren't signed contracts, rudy giuliani was doing business development showing lutsenko ostensivably how far he could work on behalf of his client and speaks to the fact why we need u.s. government officials advising the president. when i worked at the white house i went through ethics screening and disclose any conflict of interest, looking for a new job, who was i talking to be? rudy giuliani walked into the oval office and we don't know if he ever told president trump he had these conflicts of interests. the president should rely on experts who go through real screenings to get the job done. >> other things it kaitlan reported on. three take aways. one, military aid withheld from ukraine same day as the july 25th phone call with trump and zelensky. two, white house aware of the whistle-blower complaint when the aid was released and three, department of defense back in may said ukraine was making progress on corruption and should get this military aid. you and i chatte

rudy giuliani playing defense with democrats. the media and his own boss. headline after headline shows he's under scrutiny as federal prosecutors dig into his firm's business activities. now "the new york times" t "washington post" and the "wall street journal" is all reporting he was weighing business deals in ukraine worth hundreds of millions of dollars working to dig up dirt on the bidens for trump. he tweeted i did not pursue a business opportunity in ukraine. but it's not just the media. he's also trying to clean things up with his own boss. now according to his attorney, giuliani reportedly called the president to say he was joking when he said he had insurance if trump turned on him in the ukraine controversy. >> all of these comments with which are totally insulting, i mean, i have seen things written like he's going to throw me under the bus. i have insurance. >> i told him 10,000 comedians are out of work, you make a joke. it's not first time that giuliani's lawyers stepped in for his client. he was asked if he was nervous trump might throw him

rudy giuliani the z. poll this meeting will not happen which is not a condition that's just not going to happen you know of any of the difference here i think what you're what you're saying is. this meeting i was talking about in my opening statement was apparently a meeting that rudy giuliani was having at the same time at the same time in ukraine right unbeknownst to us right but he's saying something different he's saying it's not going to happen there's no notice in here that it's conditioned in any way well that was a basket or volcker's point this was really an exchange with with a master tailor ambassador volcker vasser volcker is saying don't let other people speak for the u.s. government that was his point but if rudy is following the directions and it's and he's saying what he's saying here and you're also following directions right and you're saying it's condition who's divin you the instructions to say what you're saying that's why we thought it was problematic to work with mr giuliani exactly

on, he would turn up the volume so he knew what rudy giuliani was saying. she would go home at the end of long days, and she, too, would have to turn on the tv to learn about what giuliani was saying so that she could then be prepared to carry out the trump administration's formal foreign policy when it came to ukraine. so we're learning more details about how complicated it all really was. but another interesting element here is the fact that chief of staff mick mulvaney was having meetings with the u.s. ambassador to the eu, gordon sondland, repeatedly. and fiona hill explains they were discussing ukraine. at one point gordon sondland told her he was put in charge of ukraine by the president. but the problem was that the meetings between sondland and mick mulvaney weren't trickling down to the rest of the staff, including fiona hill who was carrying out the formal policy. so there is really a problem here with how the messages were getting transferred, and the fact here is that we are seeing more and more the overstated role that giuliani was playing, eve

rudy giuliani is not paid by president trump. he's doing apparently pro bono work for the president who is a wealthy man. he was getting paid by a ukranian american and a belarose american who had received money from a russian man, and they did not like marie yavonovitch, right? so in that regard, their roles aligned. i do want to read something from marie yavonovitch. this is one of the excerpts. the question was, and from your staff members or your own conversations, what did you come to learn about mr. giuliani's interest in ukraine? she responds, that basically there had been a number of meetings between mr. lasenko and mayor giuliani and they were looking -- i should say mr. lasenko was looking to hurt me in the u.s. koi i couldn't imagine what that was but now i see. the question was, what do you see now? she answered, well, i'm no longer in ukraine. lasenko was the attorney general. >> the complaints by not only the united states and europeans and groups inside ukraine was that essentially he was corrupt, that he was somet

are rudy giuliani and the president pictures. but the lawyer says he has information that devin nunes is tide up in in as well. how do you see this playing out? >> well, i mean, i think it's like what jeffrey said it dpentds on what they have and can deliver. they also claim they at a dinner with the president had told him -- they were the ones really driving the smear campaign against marie yovanovitch and they had told him she was working against his interests. so, i mean, maybe if they did in fact have recordings of something that could be meaningful. i don't think -- well, i want to say two things one to david's point. i completely disagree about giuliani. i think trump would throw him under the bus in a split second and wouldn't think twice about it. i don't think however that even throwing him under the bus gets trump out of this because there is too much evidence showing that he was driving this bus, basically. >> sure. >> but i think he would absolutely do it. >> berman can you refresh my memory what's the name of the com

giuliani and rudy giuliani is in trouble with the testimony today and the conspiracy theories they were pushing and i think the problem now is that everybody who has come before this committee pretty much everybody has either said they have a problem with the phone call, or that the phone call was -- when they saw the phone call it was at issue and that is why the republicans we've discussed this endlessly here, keep attacking either witnesses or the process or adam schiff or the media or stephanie grisham because there is no counter argument of what has been said. >> i want to bring other people. sunlen, this is what -- this is what people think is the most important line and david is right, he did have to amend his testimony and there were questions about whether he perjured himself and he went back and talked about september 1st and tells a top aide to ukrainian president zelensky and he said i now recall speaking individually with mr. yermac, where i said the resumption of u.s. aid would likely not occur until they provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been speak

rudy giuliani's not doing that. thank you both. >> thanks, guys. >> joining me now is democratic senator chris van hollen of maryland who has been investigating the trump administration's freeze of military aid to ukraine. senator, i wanted to talk to you about that because i think it has got a little lost in the shuffle about whether the freeze itself was lawful or unlawful. what is your sense of why the freeze happened and whether it is lawful or unlawful? >> well, as to whether or not it was a lawful or whether it violated the budget process, i've asked gao to take a look at it. i think it is important to remember, chris, the big picture here. which is that the president's withholding of taxpayer-funded military assistance to ukraine in exchange for them interfering in a u.s. election is the cause for the abuse of power that the house impeachment inquiry is very focused on. the separate issue is whether the president in withholding the money violated what's called the control act designed to prevent presidents fr

. >> more trouble for rudy giuliani. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy. >> new reports that the president's lawyer was trying to get paid by ukrainians while he was pushing trump's extortion effort. >> you know, i have no business interest in ukraine. >> tonight the growing evidence of rudy giuliani's flagrant corruption. >> oh, wow. >> then new evidence that trump kept two sets of books on his business assets. >> it was my experience that mr. trump inflated his total assets when it served his purposes and deflated his assets to reduce his real estate taxes. >> plus disturbing new details on just how many kids were separated at the border. what could explain the shift at the top of the 2020 polls and why the economy isn't as great as trump says it is? >> everybody's getting rich. and i'm working my ass off. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. we continue to learn more and more about rudy giuliani's entanglements with foreign interests and the corruption that surrounds them.

. >> rudy giuliani's quote campaign of lies. >> rudy giuliani is a great gentleman, a great crime-fighter. >> tonight even more damning new details on the president's push to extort ukraine. and new reporting on just what rudy giuliani and william barr were willing to do to help him. >> where is william barr? where is he? >> plus -- >> the house and the american public must see all the evidence for themselves. >>ia dishiary chairman jerry nadler joins me live to lay out exactly how the public inquiry will proceed. and another billionaire enters the fold. what a mike bloomberg candidacy means for the democratic field. when "all in" starts right now. >>> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. ever since the president has got elected he's been on the quest to make the role of attorney general, the peoples lawyer his personal lawyer. it's tempted to ask where is my roy cohn. he went onto be a conciliary for the new york mob and also a lawyer and mentor to one donald trump. and for donald trump he represented the perfect lawyer. it appears in the president's infamous phone call with ukra

associates of rudy giuliani. i think they were clients of his and that made sense to somebody, but where they were trying to make money and they might have thought that ambassador yovanovitch was going to be an impediment to their efforts to do whatever. >> there's a lot we can learn about what they were doing in this whole situation. including again what rudy giuliani was doing. the person that seems to be responsible for their presence in this situation is the president. and he didn't talk about that. also didn't talk about the president's conduct. may be helpful to remember two questions that were repeated time and again during the watergate hearings. what did the president know and when. he seems to have been b in the situation for a significant period of time trying to create a shadow of government that was going to take care of ukraine apparently to help his re-election. >> althoughgloria, the shadow government as i didn't mean recorden pointed out, consisted of three individuals who had been confirmed by t

he fully believed rudy giuliani was acting on behalf of the president, but rudy giuliani remains central to this operation.ud how is that going to play out because rudy giuliani's got his own problems.to he's now hired a new lawyer. he's generally been pretty silent although today he tweeted that the investigation i conducted concerning 2016 ukrainian collusion and corruption was done solely as a defense attorney to defend my client against false charges. that kept changing as one after another were disproven. rudy giuliani and donald trump seem to be the two people we have to understand what they said tond each other and how th did what they did. >> right. and it's sort of been a waiting game for many in washington, s d.c. to see if trump ends up throwing rudy under the bus.se i mean there is this small area of distance between rudy and the president as you read through these transcripts in which the presidentan continues to deflec to rudy, continues to advise people coming to him to speak directly to rudy, as if to give him some sort of plausible deniability if and when this thing blew

rudy giuliani is still on paper anyway the president's permanent be lawyer. even as federal subpoenas indicate the former new york city mayor is a potential subject or target of a very broad federal investigation. giuliani insists he did nothing wrong and says he has nothing to hide but prosecutors are closely looking at giuliani's associates and his consulting business. a grand jury subpoena reviewed by cnn shows prosecutors are trying to untangle a complicated web of potential law breaking, conspiracy, acting as a foreign agent, obstruction of justice, money laundering, and funneling money into u.s. elections, all of that raised in this subpoena. carrie cordero and evan perez join our conversation. if you read the subpoena, wow. >> right, wow. it's not good news for any of the people involved. but if you're rudy giuliani, there's a couple things that should worry you, right? if you're simply, again, a subject of this, right, and there's a fine line between subject and becoming a target, you have to be worried that nobody's called you to try to get your side

and now it might be rudy giuliani's turn. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy. but rudy, i don't even know -- i know he was going to go to ukraine, and i think he canceled the trip, but, you know, rudy has other clients other than me. >> so you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf? >> no. but you have to understand rudy is a great corruption fighter. >> giuliani's your personal lawyer. so you didn't direct him to go to ukraine to do anything? >> no, i didn't direct him. but he is a warrior. rudy's a warrior. rudy went, he possibly saw something, but you have to understand rudy has other people that he represents. >> i know. >> the president there painting giuliani as a lone-wolf corruption fighter despite a mountain of testimony saying otherwise. saying, quote, mr. giuliani is a highly respected man. he was the mayor of new york city and i would like you to call him. he knows what's happening and is a very capable guy. i will have mr. giuliani give you a call. and new reporting this afternoon may make trump forget g

there are new ones about rudy giuliani today. this is what senate republicans fear the most, if they're held as jurors to a vote in the trial about articles of impeachment, how much more will they learn about this by the time that date comes around. that's the big anxiety. >> we are going to perhaps learn more as we move into this next phase. there's a new date for hearings in the judiciary committee as they prepare the potential articles of impeachment. the first hearing is scheduled for one week from today, december 4th. this time under these rules the president's lawyer will be allowed to participate. we have new reporting today the president likely won't send anyone. is that smart? and if the president did send someone, what could his attorney do? >> i think that's a mistake. what the judiciary committee hearing will be next week on december 4th is a hearing on the constitutional standards of impeachment. they will bring in law professors and other legal experts who will explain why this was in fact a bribery scheme, why any

it gets worse and worse for rudy giuliani. by extension for the president. >> you write about mayor giuliani two main jobs. in the 18 months since trump hired him. he's a kind of shadow secretary of state. everyone maintaining foreign consulting business. hees a de facto envoy of the government. at the same time receiving consulting and speaking fees from foreign initials and businessmen. if you can in a short time, who are some of his foreign clients? do you have a sense of what money he's earning? >> he represented an iranian turkey gold trader. and raised facing legal trouble in new york. for sanctions. he raised that with administration officials while he was representing trump as personal lawyer. and that telegraphing his influence in that situation. he went to ar men ya for a speech. he gets paid $100,000 for speeches. they had an official meeting with the secretary of defense and did a formal read out. treated like an emissary of the president even though he was there on personal business. this is the core of the proble

but in the interest of donald trump. >> and rudy giuliani. >> and rudy giuliani's pocket. it was almost the pseudo state department that rudy giuliani was leading. it's surprising that republicans would want these testimonies to be out because they are devastating to donald trump. >> be careful what you wish for. >> be careful what you wish for. >> also breaking on the hill, the vice president's top aide who was on that july 25g9 phone call just finished testifying. she said that call was not foreman for a very specific reason. >>> from arena to living rooms, the strategy to re-elect president trump. stay with us. with fidelity wealth management you get straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management. to help you grow and protect your wealth. if you're stayingcessful businessat holiday inn.is easy, we're there. so you can be too. tell him we're flexible. don't worry. my dutch is ok. just ok? this man is very bendy. tell him we need this merger.

so we have interference in the election, again, by the president or with rudy giuliani. that's problem number one. and asking for foreign interference, which is banned by ourrfederal campaign laws. >> brennan: you're sceptical. what would you need to hear to persuade you? >> this is not bribery. the supreme court unanimously directed this type of interpret ration. but you can't invoke bribery and point out it isn't bribery, and then say it's impeachment. you're inadvocating bribery because it's a serious criminal offense. you don't have a complete record. this is like hearing hamlet. you need to talk to the royal family. >> it would be great if the white house would comply with the subpoenas. >> brennan: i had kellyanne conway here saying they're preparing for all scenarios, nat trial or if the democrats don't a with impeachment. what are they actually planning for? >> this is all about the court of public opinion, as kellyanne conway said, the white house counsel's office, the attorneys, they're working on a legal strategy, but for the president, he's approaching this j

plus is mike pompeo afraid of rudy giuliani. new testimony behind closed doors today and the woman who flipped off the president and lost her job over it just got and won a new job and she's my guest. let's go out front. good evening. i'm erin burnett. out front tonight, the breaking news. an aide to vice president mike pence who was on president trump's now infamous call with the ukrainian president defying the white house. a source saying tonight that jennifer williams will show up to testify tomorrow in the impeachment inquiry if subpoenaed and you can bet that speenal come early tomorrow morning. what she says could be crucial. according to our source, williams was concerned about what she heard on that call. this is the transcript from the closed-door deposition of a key impeachment witness was just released late today. top u.s. diplomat in ukraine, bill taylor using words like snake pit and nightmare under oath to describe the president's allies and the events unfolding around the quid pro quo in ukraine. we also learned t