rather than the current electoral college system. the hill newspaper in the making every vote count foundation hosted this event. >> good morning, everyone. we are on c-span and also live streaming on the making every vote count facebook page. i want you all to behave. the electoral college is a disaster for democracy. that's not me speaking. that's donald trump or it was donald trump before he changed his mind a few times. he also said this: i would rather see it where you went with simple votes. you know you get 100 million votes and someone else gets 90 million and you win. i quote him not for irony but because he is right and his affinity for the popular vote may reflect his instinct that a president who was elected without winning a majority is perhaps not so legitimate. think of all the factors that have contributed to voter cynicism and alienation. of all the measures that we could institute to help restore confidence in democracy. this is the one that can be easily and quickly remedied. and have it enormous impact. suddenly,

he turned to the electoral college. the electoral college is the system we have. and so everybody is going to -- look right now every campaign and campaign strategist should be playing to the electoral college and if anything it was a huge oversight not believing that so many blue states could change. and this is why i keep saying whatever you think is going to happen in american politics, and if you think that the system is going to work to your advantage, you know, both parties have proven over the long run, even after 49 state wipe outs they come back and politics changes, economic changes, issues change, we need the fairest system we can have for today and i think that kind of message like a lot of reforms i think that were talked about on stump will resonate power play. that could be bipartisan. i don't think that has to be a partisan issue. >> steve, what you read is from around 1800. if we think what the original founders wanted sure maybe they wanted -- >> no this was written more recently. >> i'll point out when refer to what the finers wanted or original

it's why we use the electoral college to elect the president. the section of the constitution that described electoral college, is the longest sectiont they spent a lot of time thinking how they would elect a president who would be a national president and avoid sectionalism. if we went to a direct popular vote, new york and california which was the president. >> tucker: that would be bad because he's parts of the country would be not represented at all. >> that's right. the democrats at the same complaints about the senate. they don't like that small states with low populations get two senators. they don't think that's fair, they want a direct democracy, they don't want to republic. i think in part because they don't quite understand what a republic is sometimes. what they are describing is tyranny of the majority, it's what james madison warned us against. >> tucker: who they now claim to love. in one sentence, would you keep a senate without an electoral college? >> no, there would be no point, there would be no point for a lot of things if w

i will change the whole electoral college system. you won't have to worry about that anymore if i'm president. as if they are six unaffordable and you be paid for massive government programs weren't enough. now she can get rid of the electoral college. you are white but want to be black. you are a man and want to be a woman. maybe you are like the former naacp chapter president and she wished she were black even though she was born white. there is also ms. warren who believes she is native american. all of this is perfectly okay according to england's largest college union. if you feel it, you should be it. my next guest can't believe any of this. doctor bob, what should i take for back pain? before you take anything, i recommend applying topical relievers first. salonpas lidocaine patch blocks pain receptors for effective, non-addictive relief. salonpas lidocaine. patch, roll-on or cream. hisamitsu. if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and a high risk for fracture now might not be the best time to ask yourself are my bones strong

i will change the whole electoral college system. you won't have to worry about that anymore if i'm president. as if they are six unaffordable and you be paid for massive government programs weren't enough. now she can get rid of the electoral college. you are white but want to be black. you are a man and want to be a woman. maybe you are like the former naacp chapter president and she wished she were black even though she was born white. there is also ms. warren who believes she is native american. all of this is perfectly okay according to england's largest college union. if you feel it, you should be it. my next guest can't believe any of this. owerful. i have the power to lower owerful. my blood sugar and a1c. because i can still make my own insulin. and trulicity activates my body to release it like it's supposed to. trulicity is for people with type 2 diabetes. it's not insulin. i take it once a week. it starts acting in my body from the first dose. trulicity isn't for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. don't

what's the point of electoral college? >> that goes all the way back to the founding of the country, right? this idea that the interest of each state would be represented in an electoral college. >> we saw for the second time in recent history in 2016, the person who won the electoral college was not the person who won the popular vote. why? >> well, i mean, take a look at this map right here. right, for 2016. what you got, you got areas wit populations, tend to be blue collar white voters. this is a group you saw donald trump, he inspired huge turnout. so it allowed clinton to win the popular vote nationally but for trump to pick off a pennsylvania, a michigan, a wisconsin. >> and you need those states along with florida. >> you can lose the national popular vote in trump's case by upward of 3 million votes but because you had such a concentration of your type of voter in those places, that's electoral vote rich. that's 46. that's -- that's what made him president. >> an nbc news/"the wall street journal" poll shows 53% o

guest: i believe in the wisdom of the electoral college. there are so many parts of america that would not be represented. the caller is talking about how he does not live in a battleground state, so he does not get exposure of the candidates or advertising. if you eliminate the electoral college, it would be no reason for people to go to nebraska. or wyoming, places where they have smaller population centers. everyone would focus their resources on the metro centers. you would leave the middle. you would leave the midwest, rural areas completely unaccounted for. i think that was the wisdom of the founders thoughts on the electoral college, much like how they founded on capitol hill whereyou have the senate each state is represented equally to make sure that the non-population centers are not taken advantage of, are not overlooked, while the house is focused on a population distribution. the senate is the great equalizer were all things have an equal say. it is something that is here to say. -- stay. i fear what the illuminating the elector

bush would win the popular and lose the electoral college. there was reporting that some people in his campaign were working on a strategy to essentially do what the hamilton electors did in 2016, a public push, pr blitz, to get the electrictors to get with the popular vote winner and say electoral college is an an ak roenism and we need a president elected by the people. they didn't have to take that route given how it turned out. but four years later because they had lost the popular vote the bush campaign team became perhaps the only one in american history that abtively sought to win the popular vote. no other campaign probably has or should. it would be politically crazy to do that. but the bush team understood the issue of legitimacy and how important it was for him to be seen as legitimate in the eyes of the country after what had happened in 2000. he ended up winning by 3 million votes which is roughly hillary clinton's in 2016. so they managed it. can i make one other point? >> absolutely. >> this goes to what the other panelists hav

well but it is about fairness because think about if the electoral college was abolished you would just focus on 5 or 6 states you'd be focused on getting every vote out getting to everybody because right now you know that ok there are certain states that are foregone conclusions and certain candidates want to spend time there if you're a democrat why even go to the so-called fly over states or for republican vice waste time in california but if there's no electoral college one person one vote it encourages candidates to get in front of everybody republicans know that all of their candidates would be dead on arrival for the popular vote we saw hillary clinton 3000000 more votes than donald trump that's why they're fighting to keep the electoral college let's not act like that's not what this is about here but the fairest system and people been making this argument for decades would be to go to just the popular vote winning we do that with every other race ok well it went again let's say you that it's a procedural issue but you're looking at the democrats are looking at power and so they

united states. >> yes, let's abolish the electoral college. >> the electoral college overrules the will of the american people. >> the popular vote has been diminished in terms of making the final decision about who is president of the united states. trish: so you can try doing this? doing what you are doing now? because it seems as though there are seven people on that stage there and all seven are dems and all seven want to impeach the united states. the country isn't with them on this one. check out the electoral map from 2016, i think it's clear. look at all that red in the middle of the country. you can argue we need to change the system that made us the greatest nation on earth and the envy of the world for the last 200-plus years. or you can recognize majority rule is the last thing we want. i can from a small place, live free or die new hampshire. we are only relevant once every four years in the electoral landscape because we have two electoral votes. it's what helped nurture the great diversity of this nation and i don't ever want to see it go. joining me, presidential histori

and it is why we use the electoral college to elect presidents. the section of the constitution that describes the electoral college is the longest section of the constitution. they spent a lot of time thinking about how to elect a president who would be truly a national president and as you say, would avoid sectionalism. we went to a direct popular vote, new york and california would choose the president. >> tucker: that would be bad because huge parts of the country would be completely not represented at all. >> that is right. the democrats have the same complaints about the senate. they don't like this, small states with low populations get two senators. they don't think that's fair. they want a direct democracy, they don't want a republic. i think because they don't quite understand what a republic is sometimes what they are describing is the majority which is what james madden warned us again. >> tucker: would you keep a senate without electoral college? >> no. there would be no point for a lot of things if we got rid of the electoral college

quick tweet from john in north carolina who says it could be an electoral college landslide, but the popular vote will always be massive in failing blue cities. the color mentioned former vice president joe biden who came out with then add following the president's trip to the nato anniversary in london. >> world leaders caught on camera talking about trump. several world leaders mocking donald trump. >> they are laughing at him. [laughter] leaders mocking him for being completely off ballot. worried. are >> the world sees trump up for what he is -- insincere,

college in thepped the scales electoral college to the president. vote: voters showed up to for the u.s. senate or house, their local elections, but they do not vote for president. i do not like either one of them. who madelked to voters that dramatic choice of either voting for obama twice to voting for trump or being a republican, not liking trump's compartment, and being say a george bush guy -- a jeb bush guy or a marco rubio guy and finding themselves eventually voting for trump, they are insulted when you say that russia had something to do with their vote. independentery about how they get to their decision. that russian -- that russia influenced them, they find insulting. host: our next colors from illinois, independent line. caller is from illinois, independent line. caller: democrats do nothing but taxes, closeraise factories. they have not done anything by way of legislation to help anyone like the handicapped. patact passed by democrats -- changed life for the handicapped around the world. when the republicans are in, they do not care ab

quick tweet from john in north carolina who says it could be an electoral college landslide, but the popular vote will always be massive in failing blue cities. the color mentioned former vice president joe biden who came out with then add following the president's trip to the nato anniversary in london. >> world leaders caught on camera talking about trump. several world leaders mocking donald trump. >> they are laughing at him. [laughter] leaders mocking him for being completely off ballot. worried. are >> the world sees trump up for what he is -- insincere, ill-informed, corrupt,

guest: i believe in the wisdom of the electoral college. there are so many parts of america that would not be represented. the caller is talking about how he does not live in a battleground state, so he does not get exposure of the candidates or advertising. if you eliminate the electoral college, it would be no reason for people to go to nebraska. or wyoming, places where they have smaller population centers. everyone would focus their resources on the metro centers. you would leave the middle. you would leave the midwest, rural areas completely unaccounted for. i think that was the wisdom of the founders thoughts on the electoral college, much like how they founded on capitol hill whereyou have the senate each state is represented equally to make sure that the non-population centers are not taken advantage of, are not overlooked, while the house is focused on a population distribution. the senate is the great equalizer were all things have an equal say. it is something that is here to say. -- stay. i fear what the illuminating the elector

the electoral college tends to give us a majority. and to win estates votes. >> so pretty clearly it has a role to prevent parties from competing this candidates getting 10 percent in the polls i will pick the winner but something is fundamental

college our national polls immaterial if you only poll of 5 states or 6 states that account you get a better indication of what's happening. i grew that you want to look at a state by state poll in terms of really assessing how this plays out and the 2020 context and you know alex talked about wisconsin if you look at the real clear polling average for that state joe biden's beating the president right now by 2.7 points so. democrats are still up in those battleground states i look at arizona as a really interesting state larry if you want to talk about state specific polls and that's state keep in mind this is a state that is that is so red it's gone for every republican president since the fifty's i think and certainly donald trump took it by double digits but but he is now in a dead heat with not only joe biden but mary pete put a judge and so i think that's also instructive for for the shifting sands if you will in terms of how i think tenuous this president's path has certainly always been for reelection given as we've all noted he failed to win the popular vote in 2016 but eve

are you in favor of a popular vote you mean getting rid of the electoral college yeah absolutely i think it's such it belongs in the smithsonian museum look if there's anything sacred it seems to me that we could all should all be able to agree on is that whoever gets the most votes wins the election that should have that should be the case now and i think it's appalling that in this young century we've already had 2 presidents elected or you know who ended up being president because without winning the popular vote that the american people did not choose to be the president of the united states george w. bush and donald trump they both happen to republicans i don't care was republican or democrat my position has always been the electoral college. is an anachronism and we have to get and we have to get rid of it just simply one man one person one vote and whoever gets the most votes wins the election bill thanks is always great to see you spending time we covered a lot of time a lot of territory there larry bill for us and thank you audience for joining me on this edition of politicking

if we abolish the electoral college, candidates would campaign more in new york and california and the candidate who lost the popular vote might have won the popular vote. we play by the rules and the rules are the rules of the electoral college, so president trump won illegitimate election. i voted against them, i am a liberal democrat, but i don't challenge the legitimacy of his election. host: president trump tweeted out, read the transcripts, the impeachment hoped is the greatest con job in american history. should the president play a role in his defense in the senate? guest: absolutely not. i have defended people for 55 years and i never, a lover allow my clients to play a role. they want to assert their innocence, but the burden is on the others to prove guilt and generally i have advised my rolets to play a passive in their own trials. there have been rare occasions where i had a client take the witness stand and testify but the fear of a perjury trap is far too great. you can fall into a perjury trap by telling the truth. if you tell the complete, honest truth but the other si

[applause] >> what is your position on the electoral college? >> what is my position on the electoral college? it is not going to change. we need a constitutional amendment to be able to change it and there is some early rationale for a. the reason we got the connecticut compromise was because states like new hampshire and delaware and others who have very small populations, who have no impact on the outcome of an election, and no one would show up. i still think there's value to it, but i do think it's worth us going back and considering. i've taught constitutional law for over 21 years and i think it's worthy to be considered looked at again in a serious way by scholars. see if there should be any change or alteration to it. the fact of the matter, it is what it is. for example, if it was not in a position where there is an electoral college, you all would not get a chance to do anything. vote, and it to think it requires -- the whole purpose was, if you remember, is not only to get the constitution passed, but to bring disparate parts of the

[applause] >> what is your position on the electoral college? >> what is my position on electoral college. my position is it's not going to change. we need a constitutional amendment to be able to change it and there is some early rationale for it. the early rationale for, the reason we got to go put the connecticut compromise was because states like new hampshire, delaware and others who have very small populations, who have no impact on the outcome of an election if, in fact, no one would show up, quite frankly. so i still think there's value to it but it do think it's worth as going back and reconsidering. i've taught constitutional law for over 21 years and i think it's worthy to be considered, we looked at begin industries way by scholars to see whether or not they should be any change or alteration of it. but the fact of the matter is it is what it is. and for example, if it wasn't in a position where the was an electoral college, you all wouldn't get a chance to do anything. no, you get to vote, but you know, and they think it requires --

to do awayly willing with the electoral college. i agree that would be a good thing. to toss theling baby of the constitution not with the bathwater of the electoral college. i'm more devoted to the bill of rights than i am to the constitution. the constitution is full of a lot of ingenious 18th-century mechanisms for balancing and reducing the concentration of power, which more or less worked for a long time. i'm not sure we want to dismantle those mechanisms. i do think that what is precious to me in the constitution is the bill of rights. by the way, it was precious to edward snowden. that's what got him involved in .is career of revelation i think we're going to need -- i think it's going to take a lot , more ingenuity than the current democratic party is demonstrating, to redirect public discourse in a way that it needs to be redirected. dnc and theamong democratic establishment, as well as among most of the major media, is a longing for the status quo anti-trump. i don't think that's enough. the reason trump was elected was because there was serious shortcomings

we want to win the popular vote but she lost the electoral college. 217 electoral college votes that we needed to win and we didn't. three states i, michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin. one of the things that happened in wisconsin, 200,000 people could not vote because of votersuppression. there's a lot riding against us in this for 2020 . there are there are voter id laws across the country that's going to make it difficult for that coalition to go out and vote. it is not going to be easy. we talked aboutmisinformation campaigns . now he's president. he could care less about making sure russia and other countries don't interfere. it's going to be harder than it was in 2016 . we've got to get to 270 . we've got to win and we can c do it cause we elected barack obama twice because of 2270 so it's not like we can't do it. we've got to get people out to vote. we cannot sit this out. we cannot sit this out. we cannot, i can't say it enough. we cannot sit this out. we have to hold on to our urdemocracy . we have to hold on to our freedom. and we have to stand for each and every one of us

sometimes it benefits the rich and gerrymandering and the swing stators electoral college and to those out of pattern power but the point is the representative democracy to be equally represented that's the core reform. spirit the constitutional theory book of new understandings so what degree did the framers anticipate what the current unrepresentative democracy of the hopes in the framers? >> and as the great compromise but also wilson that was a terrible compromise. and then equal representation. men it doesn't make sense to have a branch that is representative and this is a moment in the constitutional history with representative governments are familiar to have the crown and not think of the constitution in the same way to represent the aristocracy. and the challenge for us is to figure out what we understand because as much as they took seriously the senate representing states they are appointed by the state legislators we don't have senators appointed by state legislatures anymore they are appointed by asset the election. the gap between big states and small states is humongous

but the other thing is really two words, the electoral college. working class whites have outsized power in the electoral college. therefore outsized power to choose our next president. >> you seem to be arguing it's a wakeup call of sort fors for progressives saying unless we address the plight of working class whites we will have a racialized economic populism in this country. explain. >> we will, indeed. the -- we all know about the hollowing out of the middle class, and people in the middle class know as well they are extremely angry about it. many of them are interpreting this through the lens of race, it's because they're white people. i think it's through the lens of class. it's because they're working class people. working class people of all races are not being well served by this economy and they're understandably furious. >> it seems like every other demographic group has individuals rooting them on. yet that's not the case for working class whites per se. is that a matter of political incorrectness? >> you know, people say isn't this t

the electoral college? yeah, it's the same party. actually the opposite is true as is so often the case. the left has nothing but contempt for the men who founded this country. and that's why they are forever denouncing it was racist. why are democrats suddenly telling you the opposite of that? because that's what the left does. they don't simply lie. they invert the truth: whether they claim you did is exactly what they themselves are doing. we can think of a few examples but here is one. do you remember the hysteria over, quote, family separation? people on cable news were deeply upset about it at the time. >> his calculated cruel separation of young children from their parents at the mexico border. >> ripping babies from mother's arms at the border. that only makes evangelicals love him even more. >> it's too late, it's yours. you have done it. there are babies who are hurting right now. and that won't end. and that trauma is permanent. >> for these parents that are separated from their children, this is a humanitarian crisis. >>

elected, and then to be the last american president elected by the electoral college. [applause] >> laura: go, go, liz. capital come from the supreme court that has to be packed with more justice. >> we've got to make some sort of structural deform, one idea i think is interesting, you have 15 members. >> laura: blah, blah, blah because 63 million americans voted for the man that the elites consider uncouth and untested. the voting age has to be lowered to 16 to cancel all the old people. >> it is really important to capture kids in high school when they are interested in all of this and when they are learning about government to be able to vote. >> laura: okay, none of this is going to work and frankly, it all looks really pathetic. for the past year, they have been in power, the house democrats. what have they done? they try to distract you from the results of this presidency. a booming economy, record high stock markets, record low unemployment and growing wages. but of course my massive forcing central america to finally help curb illegal immigration. it's about ti

college. i agree, that would be a good thing. but i'm less, i'm less willing to toss the baby of the constitution out with the bath water of the electoral college because it seems to me, i'm more devoted to the bill of rights, i am, than to the constitution. the constitution is full of a lot of in genius 18th century mechanisms for balancing and reducing the concentration of power, which have more or less worked for a long time. so i'm not sure we necessarily want to dismantle those mechanisms. but i do think that what is really precious to me, in the constitution, is the bill of rights, and by the way, it is what is precious to edward snowden, too, and it is what got him involved in his career of revelations. so i think we're going to need, i think it is going to take a lot of ingenuity, more ingenuity than the current democratic parties demonstrate, to redirect the public discourse in a way that needs to be redirected. what i hear among the dnc, and the democratic establishment, as well as a

i am perfectly willing to do away with the electoral college. i agree. that would be a good thing. toss the willing to baby of the constitution out with the bathwater of the electoral college because it seems to me -- i am more devoted to the bill of rights than to the constitution. full of atution is lot of ingenious 18th-century mechanisms for balancing and reducing the concentration of power, which have more or less work for a long time. so i am not sure we necessarily want to dismantle those mechanisms. what is really precious to me in the constitution is the bill of wasts, and by the way, it precious to edward snowden, two, and that is what got him involved in his career of revelations. -- ithink we are going to think it is going to take a lot ingenuity, more ingenuity than the current democratic party has done -- is demonstrating to redirect public discourse in a way that needs to be redirected. the dnc andamong democratic establishment as well as among most of the major media is a longing for the status quo anti-trump. i don't think that is enough. i think the reason trump w

is there anywhere, any occasion he won't brag about his electoral college win? what do his condolence cards look like? "i'm so sorry for your loss. almost as bad as hillary's loss to me, 306-227." ( laughter ) ( cheers and applause ) that's so sweet. that's really-- that's really-- >> jon: kind of heartfelt-ish >> stephen: so sweet, jon. thank you. he continued: "so you have spent three straight years attempting to overturn the will of the american people and nullify their votes. you view democracy as your enemy!" ( as trump ) "whereas, i view democracy as a friend... with benefits. because, under me, democracy is so screwed ( cheers and applause ) do you have a copy? here's an actual copy of the damn thing. this is-- i don't know-- it is six pages long. it is six pages long, single spaced like this. the middle pages are basically just a cut and paste from his campaign website. i'm not joking. he has space force in there. judges. his non-building of the wall. unemployment: why don't black people love me? and the usual puff and whine throughout the entire thing.