for nato, as you rightly mentioned, it also gives relevance to nato, because nato has to find itself to be relevant. much more than just military considerations, but it gives them the power of the -- they can have. i think that is a very important element. when it comes to strategic considerations, both georgia and ukraine are not indispensable to nato's eastern plan. i think they are extremely important. why? we are transit routes, we are infrastructure hubs, one way or have been trying to get away from the russian cloud to be independent and to have a free hand. let it be land, maritime, or air , cargo is extremely important. in the years to come, we will see that other players will be answering the region. right now, it has been more cautious for some of them, but china is definitely having plans to get more fdr i. they are thinking about various projects. we can talk about that as well. there is going to be a turkey connection, which is a member of nato, but with increasingly independent policy. that is a new factor, i think, that all of us have to be thinking about. georgia is a

this is also an opportunity for nato. relevant toves nato. nato has to find this out be relevant. thannk this is much more just military consideration but that is the power that they can have. i think that is a very important element. strategicmes to considerations, -- i think they are extremely important. we also help others going from the russian cloud. -- we have been trying to get away from the russian cloud to be independent and to have a free hand. let it be land, maritime, or air , cargo is extremely important. in the years to come, we will see that other players will be answering the region. right now, it has been more cautious for some of them, but china is definitely having plans to get more. they are thinking about various projects. we can talk about that as well. there is going to be a turkey connection, which is a member of nato, but with increasingly independent policy. that is a new factor, i think, that all of us have to be thinking about. georgia is a partner and is an ally of turkey, and has been continuing for quite some time. of course, we have russia. russia a

because open-door policies, as acyou rightly mentioned also gis relevance to nato because nato has to find itself to be relevant and i think that we see much more than just military consideration but also gives the power of the [inaudible] sitting for some very but when it comes to strategiche considerations ad they are making some things are not indispensablele we are trant routes and hubs in one way or another we also help if you or others from the russian cloud and whether it be the energy carriers or cargo which goes in that it be lands or maritime and it was important. in ther. years to come we will e that other players and right now it is been more cautious but definitely having plans to get more bri and begin about various projects and it does seem to be slow for some reasons but we can talk about that as well and there is going to be a turkey connection which, of course, is an date number of nato but increasingly independent that's a new factor which all of us have to be thinking about and georgia is a partner in his continuing for quite some time and we are perfect relations

to transform nato with a nato russia strategic partnership, which was sometimes called an alliance, were the two main pillars. the report describes the partnership produced some positive results but it ultimately floundered for a variety of reasons, and dan has covered some of them. the watershed event was the color revolutions, especially the orange revolution in ukraine in 2004, which brought to the fore the main fault lines in the relations today, namely putin's insistence on a free hand to dominate russia's neighbors and to suppress democracy and human rights at home. i was ambassador to moscow at the time and i remember the fury after the orange revolution, when putin accused the united states of stealing ukraine from russia, and he stepped up his efforts after that to undermine democratic forces throughout the former soviet, for fear that they would infect russia with pro-western ideas. from that point on, putin has been convinced that the west doesn't really want partnership, but regime change, and seeks to marginalize russia on the global stage. that is a big reason why the reset

sandy had to do with a lot of that on the ground, at nato. he was one of the architects of the russia leadership, devised in-- russia relationship, devised in happy days. and our paper posits, what in fact is wrong, it's a dilemma of bad russian policy over many years, which is russian authoritarianism keeps the russian economy weak and russia weak and to compensate for that weekness, leaders had to be aggressive both against western-- against countries on their border to maintain control, and against western ideas of democracy. and as we point out, this is common to the soviets, and made that a thesis of his famous long telegram from moscow and it's come on to the czar, nicholas i who used the armies to keep the ideas from russia. gorbachev tried to break this cycle. yeltsin tried to break that cycle. and one of the reasons was the failure was the enormous political trauma of the collapse not nearly of the soviet union, but really of the russian empire as it had existed from the mid 17th century. that trauma weighed on yeltsin and as his hea

nato, i certainly agree with your point that kosovo was in the stillma very young nato-russia , that we may not have accepted in hindsight, because it was using force against a traditional russian friend/client, and without the un security council authorization. while we tried to convince the russians it was a one-off forced upon us , in indy the russians had said the crisis in kosovo was a threat to international security, we didn't perhaps push the diplomatic track long enough to bring the russians on board. we did it in iraq number and they think that cemented -- we did not do it in iraq, and that cemented the russians' view. anywhere from there, and i agree that we need , if we ever get back to some kind of civil relationship with nato and russia, to think of ways to bring the russians more closely into the decision-making, not a veto, but to have a sense that their partnership with nato is not just window dressing. prize.t a consolation this can be done in a comprehensive way. looking at what we do about ukraine and georgia's restoration for membership. may be inventing. -- geor

and former nato staffer, mr. clouds, that mr. bittman is good to have you on the show. let me ask you, why is nato so worried about a reduction in u.s. troops in afghanistan? i mean, what will nato have to do if there are fewer u.s. troops there? let me stop by saying something basic. i think that these announcement by the still u.s. president, irresponsible he seems to want to keep pot leaving, taught us behind him and to fulfill promises to his bow ties without regards to losses is just not acceptable for nato. it was the a problem. the outset that we would go into afghanistan to get them and that we really need to get in and in close consultation. and that is why our instance defines terry was against it, but that therefore he was sent away and puppets were installed in the m.o.d.e. to know stuff to reduce costs this as stone, dingly foolish. even the republican majority, leader in the senate says it's against american interests and you quoted secretary that's right. let me just ask you, was, was there next co

but some military officials and nato allies are sounding the alarm. also coming up looking at exclusive d.w. news footage of an air strike in ethiopia's to gripe province. the rebellious region has ignored a government ultimatum to surrender. his defense minister tells us the military offensive on will be completed within a week. plus italy was the 1st country in europe to be hit by the pandemic suffering one of the highest death tolls. now the country is struggling to cope with the 2nd wave. hello, i'm terry martin. good to have you with us. the united states says it's sharply reducing its troop numbers in afghanistan and iraq. by mid january, the deployment will be cut to 2 and a half 1000 soldiers in each country. president made a campaign promise to end what he called for ever wars, but the move has triggered opposition, both from leading republicans and nato allies. the sun could be setting on the us presence in afghanistan. american soldiers have been fighting here since 2001, helping stabilize the country after overthrowing taliban rule, but su

nato chief u.n. stoltenberg has warned of a potentially very high price for a premature and germany's foreign minister heiko mass cautioned against creating problems. for the peace talks with the taliban. it's specially important to us that the progress we've achieved so far isn't thrown into jeopardy by hasty actions. that's why we're particularly concerned about the u.s. announcement could mean for the continuation of peace talks in afghanistan. in iraq, the u.s. military presence was greatly reduced after the defeat of isis in 2017. this is increased this way of neighboring iran and militia groups aligned with to han, as u.s. soldiers head home. they could risk leaving the field to america's enemies. all right, so what is the impact of this move on nato. to talk about that, i want to bring in historian and former nato staffer. mr. klaus. mr. bittman, it's good to have you on the show. let me ask you, why is nato so worried about a reduction in u.s. troops in afghanistan? i mean, what will nato hav

ties to nato. he certainly had a lot to do because donald trump really rocked the whole nato alliance with his actions you prefer to his threat to pull out of nato referring to it as obsolete back in 2017 stoltenberg did actually get him to row back on that remark however he continually has said to nato members that they he finds himself in a position this is trump that the situation is disproportionate in terms of funding what you also had was a unilateral approach the trump made to members of nato instead of the molten natural conclusory no really a. giving all members a fair share of of negotiating skills he actually for example in 2017 poland lot of talks with poland and he did in fact deploy the biggest u.s. troop deployment since the cold war so that was an example and then you had conversely threatening germany with with basically giving it no help whatsoever so there was an alarm throughout the nato alliance and now biden is expected to put a lot of money into nato one of his 1st that it se

brent: teri, you've been covering nato for many years. there has been talk about a re-election of donald trump meaning the beginning of the end of nato. what are you hearing? teri: i don't so much that it would be the end of nato. we have, of course, heard that president trump may want to end u.s. participation in nato but remember that he can't do these things all by himself even if he thinks he can and there is a very, very strong bipartisan support for nato on capitol hill and that doesn't matter, that will not change regardless of the senate or house races. when president trump started threatening in a serious tone to pull the u.s. out of nato, there were bills drawn up on capitol hill to say that that would be -- that that would not be allowed to happen. so he can't do that but what he can do is create a lot of insecurity inside the alliance and that, by its very nature, undermines the entire principle of nato which is to provide security for all based on the principle of mutual defense. he has openly said that he may not be willing

so brent: what is the impact of this move on nato? i want to bring in a former nato staffer. it is good to have you on this show. let me ask you, why is nato so worried about a reduction in u.s. troops in afghanistan? what will nato have to do if there are fewer u.s. troops there? >> let me start by saying something basic. i think these announcements by the still u.s. president are irresponsible. he seems to want to depart leaving torch to earth behind him and to fulfill promises to his voters without regards to losses is just not acceptable. for nato, it was clear from the outset that we would go into afghanistan together and that we will leave together and in close consultation. for instance, defense secretary esper was against it. therefore he was sent ay and puppets were installed ithe mod. a general cause this astoundingly foolish. a republican majority leader in the senate says it is against american interests and you quoted secretary stoltenberg. brent: let me just ask you -- was there no consultation between the united states and nato about this decision to withdraw u

she says, nato is position has not changed. it remains in.

donald trump called nato obsolete. it went on to accuse members of not paying their fair share for u.s. protection. it's a cost for the friction with berlin, announcing that he was reducing u.s. troop numbers in germany because of its quote, delinquent contributions to nato. it's a relationship that european leaders seem eager to repair and have a congratulatory message to joe biden. e.u. commission president, live on the land, says that as the world continues to change and huge challenges and opportunities appear already, new papa ship will be of particular importance. let's get some reaction now from france. is live for us in paris is going to get an easier ride under joe biden. well, clearly you think so in his tweets a, he congratulated joe biden. he has said that nato is very important for north america or for europe, and he is hoping that the relationship with the new incoming a u.s. president will certainly be less fraught than it was with the outgoing president donald trump. because of course, under donald trum

he is facing opposition from leading republicans and from nato allies. the sun could be setting on the u.s. presence in afghanistan. american soldiers have been fighting here since 2001, helping stabilize the country after overthrowing taliban rule, but suffering over 2000 deaths over time. their numbers have waned. now outgoing president, donald trump will reduce them to a skeleton force that's raising fears among afghans over the future. security of their country in my opinion, and the withdrawal of foreign troops from afghanistan will cause the taliban to escalate their violence across the country. and it will also cause women to suffer from u.s. forces withdraw from afghanistan. it will create a power vacuum, and the taliban will escalate the violence in a bid to seize more political power. in afghanistan. as u.s. troop numbers to fall and extremists have gained in strength. this attack on couple university earlier this month killed 22 people. it was claimed by the so-called islamic state, which has emerged as a rival to the taliban. the taliban them

you understand your nato allies. -- 2009-2013. you understand your nato allies. what do you think they will do? >> this is not just me talking to my middle -- my many friends across europe, at the very repeatable polls in a wide variety of countries, donald trump does not enjoy a great deal of support in almost all of the nato countries. conversely, former vice president biden is extremely well-known and well. i will give you a practical example. vice president biden came to a dinner we were hosting for the 28 foreign ministers of nato and he walked around that table and he could talk about tiny iceland or germany and tell a story about someone he knew in his time there. we forget before you was vice president he spent a couple of decades running the foreign relations committee in the senate. he is known, he's liked, he's respected, all of that will be helpful in his transition. katty: it was described to us as a correspondent in brussels, it would be a sigh of relief in european capitals, but what about china? it's less clear to me the differences in strategy fo

let's start with nato as reaction to this decision. well, phil, before the decision was announced as final by the united states secretary general young stoltenberg warned strongly against it. he said that the time is not right to pull out. and now that it has been, has been decided and has been announced by the pentagon. i asked for an updated reaction and forgive me for having to read a little bit, but i just got the reaction from nato spokesperson want to win. guess q. . she says that secretary general stoltenberg remains in close contact with the united states and all other allies about the mission in afghanistan. she says, nato is position, has not changed. it remains in support of the afghan peace process. and as part of that, as things develop, nato will continue to adjust its presence. she says that even with the further u.s. reductions that have been announced, nato will continue its mission to train, advise and assist afghan forces and is committed to funding them through 2024. and here's the interesting sentence, phil. she sa

meaning of the beginning of the end of nato what are you hearing. i don't hear so much that it would be the end of nato we have of course heard that president trump may want to and u.s. participation in nato but remember that he can't to do these things all by himself even if he thinks he can and there is a very very strong bipartisan support for nato on capitol hill and that doesn't matter that will not change regardless of the senate or house races when when president trump started threatening in in a very serious tone to pull the u.s. out of nato there were no bills drawn up on capitol hill to say that that would be that that would not be allowed to happen so he can't do that but what he can do is create a lot of insecurity inside the alliance and that by its very nature undermines the entire the entire principle of of the of nato which is to provide security for all based on the principle of mutual defense he has openly said that he may not be willing to send the united states to defend an ally which is required by article 5 and so he can create

and former nato staffer. mr. klaus, that mr. bittman is good to have you on the show. let me ask you, why is nato so worried about a reduction in u.s. troops in afghanistan? i mean, what will nato have to do if there are fewer u.s. troops there? let me stop by saying something basic. i think that these announcement by the still u.s. president, irresponsible, he seems to want to keep hot leaving, taught us behind him and promises to his bow ties without regards to losses. he's just not acceptable nato. he, it was clear problem. the outset that we would go into afghanistan together and that we will leave together and in close consultation. and that is why our instance secretary expo was against it, but that their party was sent away and that puppets were installed in the m.o.d.e. to notice stuff to reduce costs. this astoundingly foolish, even the republican majority leader in the senate says it's against american interests. and you quoted secretary in a stone in there. that's right. let me just ask you, was th

and non-io nato. jones: i think there were two challenges. and then we sought with the reaction of the natives, they were not given sufficient advance warning. ~ did not include was a broader u.s. nato another forces, what are their objectives combined objectives of the forced postures collectively that they needof and how does it affect al of that so i did not see a lot of strategic planning with our allies. in second issue is remember, there is pressure andl should be pressure in all of our allies capitals and among the population. with people who are asking why the germans still have wars and the italians andgh british and what they saw forces in afghanistan. i think the recognition here is simply want those countries to continue to train and engage in combat operations we have to treat them as allies, plan with them as allies and that's the only way i think were able to keep it. i think that actually provide advantages. they have forces on the ground and they can train afghan forces. i think at th

we have, as you point out, nato in the mix. i think that's very importan we've heard from the cretary-general of nato, expressing his concern over the president's decision this week to cut in half the already small number of troops we have in afghanistan. so again, i commend you for holding this hearing. i do believehere is a way forward in afghanistan that will minimizeur costs andur human losses,hich have to be an imperative. i'll be part of a wking group put together by the rockefeller fund and the atlantic council to do just that, but we have to show the strategic patience we need to face dow a determined enemy. i'd like to teust a moment on another special groupf kids that have sacriced a great deal for u and those are our intpreters and other afghan individls who have helped our mission in that country. mr. chairman, you've recently received a letter from senators shaheen andwicker asking that the necessary steps be taken to grant 4,000 visa for these individuals and their families. there's a backlog oflmost 18,000 cases

our nato allies as you know stood up for us. on article 5, i have been pleasantly surprised their willingness to make the long-term commitmen they have in afghanistan. they are ready to stay but as long as we'retaying. but we would dile ourselves utterly to think they're going stay if we're going and that i think is the hin point we're at right now after the- president drawdown decision that did not involve consultationings with nato. i believe very strongly that the nato alliance is critical or mobile security as well as america security. we have a have frustrations wi nato both in terms of financial commitments and capabilities. here is one arena where they are ready and they understand -- >> fortunately my time expired so i have to yield back to chairman but thank you for your assessments there. >> thank you very much. ms. horn is recognized for five mites. >> i yield back my te. i just wald in. thank you, chairman. >> okay. >> at this point i don't think we have anyone else seeking time. i have one last question for ambassad

donald trump has been really critical over nato nato members especially towards germany here so. most of us troops here in germany joe biden will probably also have a different stance on that and joe biden also said he would really need reinitiate talks with iran over to nuclear do so we can mix except i expect sorry really a reshuffle that diplomacy between germany and the u.s. in the months to come after january iran so joe biden will have invested the white house what is germany expecting policy why is a from a biden presidency. what they expect i think in a day expect definitely and it was something that the high come out of foreign affairs minister was saying a few days ago was that no matter who wins disallows action the tone of washington towards bellina would have to change and of course this is referring to. the constant tweeting constant criticism of donald trump even criticised germany's and europe's handling of the pandemic and that was a very clear stance here in fairly in that the tone between washington and but it would have to change so i think that's the priority

our nato allies as you know stood up for us. on article 5, i have been pleasantly surprised their willingness to make the long-term commitment they have in afghanistan. they are ready to stay but as long as we're staying. but we would dilute ourselves utterly to think they're going stay if we're going and that i think is the hinge point we're at right now after the -- president drawdown decision that did not involve consultationings with nato. i believe very strongly that the nato alliance is critical or mobile security as well as america security. we have all have frustrations with nato both in terms of financial commitments and capabilities. here is one arena where they are ready and they understand -- >> fortunately my time expired so i have to yield back to chairman but thank you for your assessments there. >> thank you very much. ms. horn is recognized for five minutes. >> i yield back my time. i just walked in. thank you, chairman. >> okay. >> at this point i don't think we have anyone else seeking time. i have one last qu

both the nato and the european union front. many people breathe huge sigh of relief when it comes to nato there has been a constant fear for the past 4 years given trump behavior and his rhetoric that. he could weaken nato it went to the point where john bolton his former national security advisor in his book the memoirs suggested that trump would leave nato when in his 2nd term and of course on the european union side it was the never much love for the e.u. or force individual member states. the hostility and rudeness toward uncle a medical was was probably the most prominent but in general the attitude of the administration towards the e.u. . was extremely hostile let us recall that the. trumps embassador to to the european union mr song black hole became famous for its shenanigans in ukraine and actually started his posting by telling a senior you were fashion officials that he was sent there to fulfill his job of destroying the e.u. so this when you have the 2 main. bodies in europe. that they administration is hostile to i

donald trump has been really critical over nato nato members especially towards germany here so. most of us troops here in germany joe biden will probably also have a different stance on that and joe biden also said he would really need reinitiate talks with iran over to nuclear do so we can extend except expect sorry really a reshuffle that diplomacy between germany and the u.s. in the months to come after january iran so joe biden will have invested the white house what is germany expecting policy why is a from a biden presidency. what they expect i think in a day expect definitely and it was something that the high come out of the foreign affairs minister was saying a few days ago was that no matter who wins disallow action the turn of rushing tone toward spending would have to change and of course this is referring to. constant tweeting constant criticism donald trump even criticized germany's and europe's handling of the pandemic and that was a very clear stance here in fairly in that the tone between washington and but it would have to change so i think that's the priority

and nato is something which will also hear from joe biden. defence and nato is something which will also hearfrom joe biden. so those are the issues which are going to go on was of the trans atlantic relationship has been hit hard. but i think what we are seeing now is an enthusiasm from berlin, the foreign minister has tweeted that he wants to relaunch the transatlantic relationship, he is going to make concrete proposals to the new administration about how to get that transatlantic relationship going again, and in order to tackle global problems. so i think there's a lot of enthusiasm here for the new leadership, a lot of issues that need result but certainly the view here is thatjoe biden is someone that the german government can certainly deal with. that was berlin, we've done china. next chop —— stop, kabul. these two sets is the broad outline of us led peace process between the afghan government and the taliban will not change under the new us leadership. it is clear to afghans and the united states that the americans wa nt to united states that the americans want to end t

nato i think it's something where we want to you know join forces with you with the other nato allies with the american friends with joe biden and his team to see how can we restructure. nato when prepared that the challenge is. in the south china sea i think that is also to modernize to prove nato 'd is very important very important task of the future well thank you so much for joining us to share those those hopes and those goals that you have now that we do know that president elect biden will be entering office as the next u.s. president picked up by our you could what need transatlantic cooperation at germany's ministry of foreign affairs member of the german bundestag thank you so much thank you very much. well world leaders have been sending messages of congratulations to you by the end his running mate kamel harris 2 notable exceptions are russia and china which have yet to hail the incoming president joe biden joe biden's triumph is being celebrated well beyond the borders of the u.s. world leaders from every continent have congratulated the new president elect. this year wil

nato has already taken a moral burden. first of all, us is part of nato, but european allies and partner nations now provide more than half of the troops in afghanistan. and we have to remember that the reason why we went into afghanistan was an attack on the united states, 9/11. what is new now is that there are peace talks and the us—taliban agreement that was signed earlier this year — i was in kabul when it was signed — states that all international troops, including nato troops, should be out of afghanistan by the 1st of may next year. and this is mr stoltenburg again, on the future of nato's deployment in afghanistan. nato will continue its training assistance advice mission in afghanistan, and the united states has made it clear that they will continue to provide logistical support to what we call "enablers" to the rest of the nato mission in afghanistan, the uk being one of many allies with significant presence in afghanistan. at the same time, no ally wants to stay longer in afghanistan than necessary, and t

nato and the relationships with the nato countries, huge damage and distrust has been sown in that relationship over the last four yea rs relationship over the last four years so relationship over the last four years so there are a whole lunch of different axes which people among america's allies will be breathing a sigh of relief, quite honestly, because they really didn't know how to deal with the united states. united states as a reality was still the most powerful country in world and it had a leader who seemed not to value it's allies. our thanks to gary there. earlier, i spoke to michael carpenter. he is managing director of the penn biden centre for diplomacy and global engagement. he was former assistant secretary of defence during the obama administration also director for russia at the national security council. iasked him how a biden presidency would approach china. with regards to a number of america's competitors, you will joe biden handle this from the position of strength and he is going to work with our allies and partners. ithink going to work with our allies and partners. i th

nato and the relationship with nato countries, huge damage and distrust has been sown in that relationship over the past four yea rs, relationship over the past four years, so there are a whole bunch of different axes that people in america's allies, among america's allies will be breathing a sigh of relief, because they really did not know how to deal with the united states, the united states as a reality was still the most powerful country and it had a leader who seems not to value its allies. let's get a bit more on this. he was former assistant secretary and director for russia at the national security council. great for you to cover the programme, thank you so much joining the programme, thank you so muchjoining us. the programme, thank you so much joining us. we have a lot to get through, our viewers around the world will be very interested in what you think thisjoe biden interested in what you think this joe biden presidency interested in what you think thisjoe biden presidency over the next four years will be not only for different countries around the world but more generally the

saying that his army was up against someone he called terrorists and also 'd the military of a mighty nato country and that he was clearly referring to the support that is there by john is getting from turkey now by the way something very important for me to say is that nicole possibly not was the 1st official the 1st leader of a country to announce the cease fire and this is the tone this is the rhetoric that he was using let's just listen to a part of the statement that he 1st made. i signed a statement with the presence of russia and as a vision to end the karabakh war starting at 1 am today the text of the statement is unspeakably painful for me personally and for our people i have made this decision as a result of an in-depth analysis of the military situation and assessment of the people who know it best who is based on the belief that this is the best possible solution to the current situation i will tell you about this all in detail in the coming days this is not a victory but there will be no defeat until you admit that you lost we will never recognize ourselves as the losing side

saying that his army was up against someone he called terrorists and also the military of a mighty nato country and that he was clearly referring to the support that azerbaijan is getting from turkey now by the way something very important for me to say is that they call posturing out was the 1st official the 1st leader of a country to announce the ceasefire and this is the tone this is the rhetoric that he was using let's just listen to a part of the statement that he 1st made i signed a statement with the presidents of russia and as visions and the karabakh was starting at 1 am today to text of the statement is unspeakably painful for me personally and from people who have made this decision as a result of an in-depth analysis of the military situation and assessment of the people who knew it best who is based on the belief that this is the best possible solution to the current situation i will tell you about this all in detail in the coming days this is not a victory but there will be new defeat until you admit that you lost we will never recognize ourselves as the losing side and th

saying that his army was up against someone he called terrorists and also 'd the military of a mighty nato country and that he was clearly referring to the support that azerbaijan is getting from turkey now by the way something very important for me to say is that nicole posturing out was the 1st official the 1st leader of a country to announce the cease fire and this is the tone this is the rhetoric that he was using let's just listen to a part of the statement that he 1st made i signed a statement with the presidents of russia and has visions and the karabakh was starting at 1 am today to takes to the statement is unspeakably painful for me personally and from people who have made this decision as a result of an in-depth analysis of the military situation and assessment of the people who knew it best who is based on the belief that this is the best possible solution to the current situation i will tell you about this all in detail in the coming days this is not a victory but there will be new defeat until you admit that you lost we will never recognize ourselves as the losing side and th

leadership creating nato. leadership in containing the soviet union, not and continue the soviet -- nuclear or even an advantage. but buying time. time it means a lot in changing people, and changing policies, and reducing chances. and then we had a remarkable leadership of american president, from truman, and from president h.w. bush, including reagan, including all the presidents, democratic presidents and republican presidents. remarkable continuity, standing with our allies, which is still relevant today. helping defend europe, containing, not going to war, or pushed to the brink, which unfortunately we were not. we went through vietnam and korea, hot-wires during the cold war. we still decided, lastly, not to use nuclear weapons. so all sorts of lessons from the cold war. one lesson is an economics, the soviet union did not get defeated militarily. so when people talk about winning, and winning in the military sense, it was an economic system -- sense. they hide internal contradictions economically, and c

birth place of harry truman who was president whether nato was founded. the czech republic and poland and hungary was part of the warsaw pact but that became history when the cold war ended along with the old soviet union. and today poland hungary and the czech republic became the next nato. >> harry truman understand what donald trump has not understood. the politics is the art of the possible, the attainable. the art of the next best. here is our conversation with somebody else who understood that. madeleine albright and presidential historians michael beschloss and doris kerns goodwin. >> secretary albright, i want to get your thoughts as i heard tony blinken yesterday talking about his stepfather escaping the holocaust and falling to his knee mr knee mrs. front offully tank and an african-american soldier coming out of it and saying god bless the america, the only three words he knew. and i thought about you. and your family escaping hitler's grasp. i thought about dr. brzezinski and mrs. brzezinski. and i know it would have been such a moving moment

nato troops but you know all nato members. themselves in the year 2014 of the so-called defense investment pledge at a nato summit to contribute to the defense spending by the year 2020 or 2 percent of g.d.p. we are in germany not there yet and the sound is what was to say that you know what we're here for you writing we're not doing anything i think everybody should understand we have understood we do we we have we have increased by 45 percent already our defense spending on defense budget compared to 2014 and we are year we have learned our lesson we understand it's in our all security interest good to do more but i want to do that together with all the nato members and i think that's and that that's something that we need to learn that we have to accept st louis in the south china sea and nato needs to see if it wants to operate out there. all right and as we've been discussing with our correspondents of course the specter of violence in the united states as protests come in the days following this election is a top of the

we're getting ripped off by this country, getting ripped off by nato and the nato allies. what did you hear from the team, not only tony blinken, but the team announced by joe biden. what is that vision of the world which if you just erase the last 4 1/2 years is a familiar one to anyone who's watched american foreign policy. >> willie, i heard competence, experience. this is a team that joe biden will feel comfortable delegating authority to. i saw a group of people who have a demonstrated capacity to work together. i have covered so many administrations where national security advisers and secretaries of state, secretaries of defense were at war. they were just so hungry for media attention, for space in the national debate that's not going to be true with this team. i think tony blinken said it clearly as did president-elect biden. we want to restore america's alliances which are the heart of american power and in a sense that's going to be easy because we have a world waiting for the return of a more traditional kind of american leadership. i want to note the way it's

nato is nato is its prime importance for us and it was not. without very good reason that we said during our summit meeting in wales that also germany needs to increase x. expense. by this summer that particular snafu going from bad to worse with president trump pulling nearly 12000 u.s. troops out of germany all still demanding that and others pay more into the nato part in fact trump was very clear on how he felt about germany and their bill paying on defense. it's been a rough few years and that's without even mentioning the iran nuclear deal which trump pulled the us out of unilaterally leaving the e.u. pulling their collective hair out or nord stream to the gas pipeline which german industry needs but the us sanctions are stopping being finished all the paris climate accord and not the multinational agreement torn up by the trumpet ministration trump does have his supporters among the leaders hungry. viktor orban and the u.s. president have similar on t. migrant answer today while the polish leadership looked likely to benefit from the re

he will certainly try to do something with the western european elements in nato. personally i believe, but i wouldn't know of course, no kind of evidence for it, but i personally believe that he won't be too interested in what's happening with brexit and the european union. because the only way he can do that, really, is to act as a continuation of that whole good friday process, which is a beneficent presence. just outside the door orjust inside it. that proved so successful with his partial participation, in fact, that i think he will act towards britain, for instance, in a calming way. so you will find right across europe, most parts of the world, there will be a huge sigh of relief. you know, from a president who could tweet something at two o'clock in the morning which would throw everything out of the pram. suddenly you are getting somebody whose trajectory you can follow and worked out. michael goldfarb, china, the big question. the democrats have not completely dissented from the criticism of china by any stretch. no, and i agree with point that bronwen wa

and the relations was in nato. relations was in the e.u. back if straight he had a very hostile, almost relationship to international folks. so biden will have a totally different policy value of the less and above all, he seems to realize that the united states is a lot stronger to get its allies rather than to go it alone. and under. and the trump, we saw a more unilateral america going to do on policy. and i think that will change fundamentally in one of your recent analysis of times. foreign policy you single out, it's 3 primary strands, disengaging the u.s. from local politics, does deigning allies, you just retreated. that point right now and defriended are pratik later. he's now, naturally as a russian has and perhaps act in your view as a shield for one set arc radek leader. i want to ask you specifically, what does it mean befriending autocratic leaders? well, we have very disconcerting illnesses under trumps that for example, trump became very close to saudi arabian crown prince. and you know that the crown, this was at least impl

and nato have been tense since u.s. president donald trump took office he has questioned the common defense clause and i'm just wondering how big a concern that is for you. we already went through 2 years ago from this huge consensus that situation stabilized and out of countries all the way to reach do percentage in the fence spending more text is all we are reaching into a sad and this gives us comfort to. nato and especially in the largest of its member united states no matter what president will be and will investigate our security in our region quite significantly and that is the case because we already have 2 battalions of u.s. troops are now the soil and one is in coming through all states this gives us quite assurance on their nato and security pact and both presidents are committed to this but in general for nato of course the pressure to invest more will be significantly increasing my besar. is supposed to be so because we somehow countries are lagging we have. former cement reforms and refreshment of their mi

that criticism and points nato towards the future and i think embracing that process and pushing nato forward to deal with challenges such as, nato forward to deal with challenges such as, concerns we nato forward to deal with challenges such as, concerns we have with china, with nontraditional threats such as 5g or technology—based threats, i think these are things the alliance needs to do and that president—elect biden would be able to lead a process on. anthony zurcher is in washington. if you are drawing up a list on the donald trump policies he wants to reverse , donald trump policies he wants to reverse, what also be on the list? another thing would be reimplementation of the protections for children of immigrants who entered the country illegally, so—called daca, the dreamers, this is something donald trump had been trying to wind down unsuccessfully in the courts and he may had tried to do again in a second term. i think it is pretty clearjob biden will ramp up meant that policy and do away with the muslim band of certain majority most on nations that donald trump admitt