. >> coming up, supreme court experts, dahlia lithwick and mary ziegler will join us next. i will ask them if they've ever hurt anyone defend at the idea of forcing rape and incest victims to give birth, without using some form of magical thinking like greg abbott's promise, to eliminate ripe. that's next. abbott' ♪ ♪ aleve. who do you take it for? promise, to eliminate ripe that's next. the unknown is not empty. it's a storm that crashes, and consumes, replacing thought with worry. but one thing can calm uncertainty. an answer. uncovered through exploration, teamwork, and innovation. an answer that leads to even more answers. mayo clinic. you know where to go. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. after roe v. wade guaranteed women the right to can troll pregnancy as a constitutional right first decade passed quietly, abortion was not a partisan

and professor mary ziegler, let me begin with you, in the 50-year history of this subject, beginning around the time of roe, have you ever heard a defender of the idea that women and girls who are raped, or victims of incest, should be forced to give birth? have you ever heard someone defend that idea, without some kind of magical thinking, like greg abbott has suggested that he will eliminate rape? >> surprisingly, i have. i mean, it's quite common in the antiabortion movement, to essentially say, anything that contradicts the principle of fetal personhood is wrong. so generally, the argument is, if you can't, you know, justify in the case of rape or incest, you can't justify abortion. and often, you also hear people in the antiabortion movement say, essentially, it's terrible that someone was sexually assaulted. but it's worse that they have an abortion, essentially, that the abortion is worse in the sexual assault, and forcing the victim of the sexual assault to carry the pregnancy to term. it is the lesser of the evils. so, we haven't heard that in politics until recently, becaus

mary ziegler is a law professor at the university of california, davis. her most recent book is "dollars for life: the anti-abortion movement and the fall of the republican establishment." mary, thanks for being with us. we just showed that map from the guttmacher institute. what does this decision mean for women? who may let's say in the coming days, when she's pregnant and decide she wants to terminate it, >> at the moment, that person wod in many of these states only have the option to avel out of state or to try to self manage an abortion. so essentially, what had been a constitutional right in all 50 states is now going to be protected in less than half. >> what happens now to the legal battle over abortion. what's the next step? what's the next phase? >> there are state constitutional battles on place unfoldg in places like michigan, at is already in the sight of a struggle about whether there's a state constitutional right to abortion. there will be knocked down political battles in states like florida and north carolina that have yet to commito ha

let's bring in mary ziegler, law professor, also with us, kasie hunt, our chief national affairs correspondent at cnn. how is this decision going to impact different parts of the country? >> well, as you mentioned, jake, in roughly half the country, abortion is going to become illegal almost immediately. there will be a kind of group of states in the middle, including virginia, who have to figure out how far they want to go, if they want to go with bans at fertilization or stop at 15 weeks, and progress sk states like california where i am now where states have to figure out how far they want to go in protecting their doctors from legal liability as well as welcoming people from conservative states into their borders. >> this is going to make life different for women and girls all over the country. >> very different, and it's going to be pretty remarkable. there's not a lot of other good examples or parallels nowadays considering that the gay marriage decision that came down from the court where there are clear geographic lines, where the rights of people are different. and so we have already

also with us university of california davis law professor mary ziegler, the author of dollars for life, the anti-abortion movement and the fall of the republican establishment. it is really good to have you both. lauren, i'll start with you. just your reaction to the news that broke early friday morning? >> well i think like a lot of americans, there is a sort of shock and grief. it is very painful even though we knew this was coming to see just how far the court was willing to go to over turn a 50-year precedent. when the opinion was leaked, it is the first time certainly in my lifetime that we've seen a revocation of individual rights an the irony of it coming on the heel of this broad interpretation of gun rights. so the sort of hypocrisy of it, i've talked to women all over the country, there is a lot of disbelief but this overwhelming sense of what now. and how do regroup. and i think on the left, this is going to be, without a question, an enormously galvanizing issue. i think joe is right for sure about independent women. and i believe that over the long-term even among those wh