sussman was acquitted. >> i do not think the american people care so much what happened to sussman for think they care more about hillary clinton and the role her campaign played in it she is not getting off at this with their hands clean. it is very apparent to anyone who has been paying attention to every thing going on that hillary clinton and hillary clinton's campaign wanted to dig up dirt on the trump campaign and then lay it at the doorstep of the immediate late at the doorstep of the fbi in then go on twitter and pretend she had no idea it was some kind of breaking news to her when we know it was not. sussman was working for her campaign when he brought this to the fbi and he said he was not working on behalf of anybody. again i understand that is how the trial is played out. i am honestly not happy with the verdict. i think it was pretty clear he wasn't guilty of what he was charged with. but still, and the court of public opinion i do think hillary clinton is incredibly damaged by this. i think this might have shut down her political career. maybe not from this trial alone bu

i have a badge sussman replied. sussman had a badge to the fbi building? how do we get one of those? we are not leading democratic lawyers so we cannot have them. michael sussman knew he would never be punished. what is going on here? "the federalist" been white garden explains how we should understand these two prosecutions. quote, they send an unmistakabl message. we can get you anytime, anywher on any grounds we choose. you cannot touch a single one o ours. that's it right there. this is a partisan play by a political party that is somehow completely taken over our largest law enforcement agency. sussman is not even the biggest example of this. andrew mccabe, lisa page, peter strzok. all of them lead to the feds as well. that's a crime. none were hauled off and leg irons. they are now at cnn, msnbc and georgetown respectively. they were rewarded with better jobs for what they did. they always are. jim clapper and john brennan committed perjury on television before congress. there is no dispute about that. what do they do, they are on tv too. hunter bide

in this case against michael sussman, the fbi was an alleged victim of sussman's life, not the perpetrator of the crime -- and to some lawyers who have been following these cases, that seemed pretty far afield from durham's mandate. >> as i know you might remember, when the original filings of this case were posted, conservative media seized on those filings as evidence that we now can see that the clinton campaign was spying on the computer networks of the trump campaign. this was all somewhat debunked in real time, but did any of those allegations end up in this case in court at all? >> no, none of that ended up in this case in court. judge cooper told prospective jurors before the trial began that we were not going to relitigate the 2016 election. hillary clinton was not on trial. donald trump was not on trial. he kept a lot of that rhetoric out of what the jury actually heard. the jurors basically said -- the ones we talked to outside the courtroom today -- that politics played no role in their deliberations, and that was not something they considered over the six hours they were behin

spate all of this is michael sussman was acquitted last week. we all know and have followed what has taken place here with the russia collusion reviewer among the leaders in the gop who wanted an investigation to find out what were the origins of the russia collusion investigation and the first place. i know that, i worked alongside and watch what you were doing. your reaction to what we learned in that courtroom last week? >> maria first i have to say thank you. you were one of the few people in the press didn't want to go out and when the pulitzer but ask the tough questions to get to honesty prevents we found in the court regardless of the murder, what are we fine? hillary clinton made this up. they made it up to go after the president pretty went to the highest levels. it even went to individuals in the campaign itself. jake's old and is now the national security adviser to the president of the united states. he was a part of this he made this upward word is his wife work? she works for attorney general garland at the same time. after knowin

trial, michael sussman may be acquitted. that bombshell testimony has huge implications. we spoke with a former aid to u. s. president ronald reagan, paul craig roberts, who says russia gate was created to destabilize us russian relations. when. ready credit fraud, claire was one of his goals, was to normalize relations with russia. he issued a major threat to the fall for profit on the motors due to conflicts, which means an enemy. so an ordinary person told person would see in all of this danger, elemental or conflict between russia in the united states. so i think that's what middle bar he is. and so now realize he's when he made a terrible state, when he was attorney general and did my act to saw the russian holes, he could have stopped good leaders, maternal, he sort of ordered and diversity derivation of the seo. ready f b i of the democratic party, but he did nothing that does it for me this our stay with us throughout the day as we bringing more news and commentary, this is our t international. ah, [000:00:00;00] ah

you know, it, it distorted our foreign policy and we have the not guilty verdict for michael sussman. ah, which indicates that the jury did not believe that what he said to the api i constituted illegal deception of the, at the i. but regardless, the trial at this point is making headlines because of the bomb shell testimony that it appears that hillary clinton did indeed sign off on the spreading of unverified rumors linking donald trump to russia. and it was the hillary clinton campaign that originated those rumors that found their way into the press. this is what we heard. i discussed it with hillary as well. i don't remember the substance of the conversation, but notionally, the discussion was pe, we have this and we want to share it with a reporter. she agreed with the decision. and as a result of this bombshell testimony from the michael sussman trial, we have donald trump saying that he feels only partially vindicated by the fact that this is now in public records. in russia gate originated hillary clinton. this is donald trump. this is one of the greatest political scandals in

just by the major revelations from the sussman trial in its implications for the entire u. s. and tell is, community continues to receive personally know media coverage here in the us. as the political leaders, you are responsible continue to walk free in washington. rachel blevins, r c. thanks very much for joining us. i'm sure that even c a r t dot com and check out the stories that i'm happy will say as well. a lot of stories in, ah, because of the conflict in ukraine, europe and russia are going there different ways and like a divorce, separation is full of anguish and finger pointing. the biggest loser of all in this, of course, is, europe. washington couldn't be more please. it's a gemini, is being sealed with business and you will clean the daily shoes on you americans, graham euro, who didn't go through it is just such an opportunity to now sitting in front of you was just touching sure. ruckel in was named hospital for the different student in full, which helped washing look, you use her own the with them, the problem that you're still with her, as you talk to yours t

has failed to obtain any evidence to show that on his way to blessings reports, the trial of michael sussman didn't just leave doing not guilty verdict for the former dnc attorney. it's also giving new insight into the obama administration handling of russia gate from the very beginning. it all started back in august 2016 with the cyber security company crowds stripe gave the f. b. i heavily redacted documents which they claim proved to russia hack the servers of the d n. c. the api. i then spent the next few weeks trying to verify the company's claim and emails that were made public in the sussman case show that in september they were actively searching for the full version of the crowd strike report. then came october 7th, 2016 when the u. s. intelligence community released this statement in which they claim they were confident that russia was behind the notorious dmc. the u. s. intelligence community is confident that the russian government directed the recent compromises of emails from us, persons and institutions, including from us political organizations. the recent disclosures of alle

the judge told the jury don't consider sussman's text to the fbi when coming to their verdict, that sussman saying he will come on his own, not working on behalf of anyone, when he was working for the hillary clinton campaign. let's watch former dni ratcliff on this. watch this. >> lawyer mark elias under oath admitted, yeah we paid fusion gbs millions of dollars to create the now debunk steele dossier which served as basis of investigations into the trump campaign for more than four years. so that is what june durham will be focusing on going forward. that is why i'm optimistic not only will he be successful in some of the ongoing prosecutions but can expand the indictments that he wants to bring given the involvement of certain fbi officials in spreading a false narrative to the american people. elizabeth: jason, so that sounds like fraud charges or maybe conspiracy charges, what do you think? >> i do, look, john ratcliffe is one of the most competent attorneys out there. he was director of national intelligence. i served with him in congress. he has been read into this as well as far as

just by being made here. revelations from the sussman trial in its implications for the entire u. s. and tell is community it continues to receive personally know media coverage here in the us as the political. if you are responsible, continue to walk free in washington. rachel blevins, r c. thanks very much. for joining us, i'm sure. even c a r t dot com and check out the stories that and hope you'll say as well on top stories with ah, nelson as a while you. while you easy while furnace us? ah. yeah. for you, it's a fun slide. yes. south, yeah. thrashing with a new dock. awesome boys. now watch done the for me at the table up. i pete on the is emily apple's video from sheila vicious kim's room. she thought video to watch the ela. a bill them come? yes, my thought or change in the again the, your fortune very up my be a lot of all this morning. such financial ah ah, lisa counter russians state total narrative. i've side as on the most landscape div with all sunset for a group in 55. when okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. when else with we will van in the european union, the kremlin. y

you know, it, it distorted our foreign policy and we have the not guilty verdict for michael sussman. ah, which indicates that the jury did not believe that what he said to the api i constituted illegal deception of the, at the i. but regardless, the trial at this point is making headlines because of the bomb shell testimony that it appears that hillary clinton did indeed sign off on the spreading of unverified rumors linking donald trump to russia. and it was the hillary clinton campaign that originated those rumors that found their way into the press. this is what we heard. i discussed it with hillary as well. i don't remember the substance of the conversation, but notionally, the discussion was pe, we have this and we want to share it with a reporter. she agreed with the decision. as a result of this bombshell testimony from the michael sussman trial, we have donald trump saying that he feels only partially vindicated by the fact that this is now in public record that russia gate originated with hillary clinton . this is donald trump. this is one of the greatest political scandals

republicans on capitol hill are fuming after the not guilty verdict came down for michael sussman. that attorney who was charged with lying to the f.b.i. prosecutors from special counsel john durham's office contend that sussman misrepresented himself during a meeting with the f.b.i.'s counsel in 2016 in hopes of orchestrating perhaps a little october surprise against president rival donald trump. house judiciary republicans tweeted this. the swamp always protects its own. senator ron johnson, further proof there are separate systems of justice in america. and this from senator marsha blackburn. today's verdict while deeply disappointing is not the end. minutes before the verdict was handed down, republican jim jordan joined the "focus." watch. >> the big takeaway here was what we learned a few days back when we learned that secretary clinton told sussman to take information -- false information to the press that was also then taken to the f.b.i. i think that is huge and so much so that the former attorney general called it seditious. >> harris: your reaction to that? >> despite wh

spent the next few weeks trying to verify the company's claim and emails that were made public in the sussman case show that in september they were actively searching for the full version of the crowds report. then came october 7th, 2016 when the us intelligence community released this statement in which they claim they were confident that russia was behind that toria dmc, half the u. s. intelligence community is confident that the russian government directed the recent compromises of emails from us. persons and institutions, including from us political organizations. the recent disclosures of alleged hacked emails are consistent with the methods and motivations of russian directed efforts . these thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the u. s. selection process. given the confidence the obama administration express, one would think that they had obtained prove the claims made by cross. right. so then one of the emails from october, 13th, 6 days after that statement was made, show the crown strike still had not handed over the evidence. they claim to ha, our team is in the pro

you know it, it distorted our foreign policy and we have the not guilty verdict for michael sussman, which indicates that the jury did not believe that what he said to the api i constituted illegal deception of the f b i. but regardless, the trial at this point is making headlines because of the bomb shell testimony that it appears that hillary clinton did indeed sign off on the spreading of unverified rumors linking donald trump to russia. and it was the hilary clinton campaign that originated those rumors that found their way into the press. this is what we heard. i discussed it with hillary as well. i don't remember the substance of the conversation, but notionally, the discussion was, hey, we have this and we want to share it with a reporter. she agreed with the decision. so it was the so called russia gates, a story that actually originated with the clinton campaign that they worked with fusion, g p. s a british firm that engages in intelligence and research and developed no more a more of a case for what they had decided they were going to go with media, then laughed it up as a

i think that durham had sussman that the right. sussman did an e-mail and the statements to the fbi say something that was false. he wasn't bringing this information to the fbi as part of the campaign. he was just doing it to be a good citizen and we know he was being paid by hillary clinton t do this but he pulled up a high risk strategy and claimed it di not make a difference and at that that matter because the fb already knew he was working for hillary that puts the fbi itsel as -- fault because that they knew that he was working for hillary he probably knew that they were concocting the scheme. by did they put so many investigatory resources into tracking this. >> that's true. the washington post opinion piece is that durham's focus becomes everything the trumpet' allies accused robert s muller of being. a fishing expedition that's gon on for an extended. mac of time without surfacing anything that aids the central case. your response to that, jim? >> that's a pretty predictable response. there's going to be a clamoring that so

i think that sussman clearly lied and i believe it was material to the investigation. many of us had raised concerns over the course of this trial about the judge's rulings. the judge narrowed the scope of potential evidence and arguments that could be raised by the prosecutors. they were also facing what i think no one could seriously argue was not a very favorable jury for the defense. you had three clinton donors, aoc donor, one juror whose daughter was serving on the same team as sussman's daughter. i think the judge did commit errors in allowing a couple of those jurors to be seated but this was a unanimous verdict. at the end of the day, i think that the jury got it wrong. i think the evidence was quite compelling and clear but ultimately my view doesn't count in terms of that verdict. >> bill: let me go through a few things with you here. in 2016, voters in washington, d.c. chose hillary clinton 91% to 4% over donald trump. i read that and i say why don't you move the trial? did they press for moving the trial out of washington, d.c.? and then you have the "wall

um we were going to have barry sussman here the watergate editor. he'd agreed to appear and sadly he passed away earlier this month so our condolences especially to the family who i understand is here. um, so uh, larry, let me start with you you worked with with uh with barry. could you tell us a little bit about him and uh about his role in watergate? yeah. um i do want to say a word about. barry barry was like the quarterback that every football team would like to have he was calm he was smart. he had great instincts. and he asked great questions. uh, he didn't give orders he made suggestions. and most of the times his suggestions were brilliant or at least very good. every once in a while like winston churchill he had a bad idea, but when he had a bad idea. he was willing to his ego didn't get in the way and you could talk him out of it. uh barry unfortunately until they died didn't get the full credit that he deserved for the role that he he played. he really directed the post coverage in the early days. and uh you may not get this in the movie.

trey: up next, verdict in michael sussman found guilty was not lying on the fbi, did the jury get it right, what is next for the durham investigation. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ dad, when is the future? um, oh wow. um, the future is, uh, what's ahead of us. i don't get it. yeah. maybe this will help. so now we're in the present. and now... we're in the future. the all-electric chevy bolt euv with available super cruise™ for hands-free driving. - dad. - yeah? do fish get thirsty? eh. find new answers. find new roads. chevrolet. trey: welcome back to "sunday night in america" this week a washington d.c. jury found michael sussman not guilties lying to the fbi, allegation he lied when he gave fbi information about an alleged secret channel between trump organization and a russian bank. that took place in 2016, well after the fbi first began investigating trump campaign, i am sorry to disappoint the left, this verdict does not end the durham investigation, the durham's job to find out what they did way before 2016, prosecutors do lose cases, it's not the en

trey: up next, verdict in michael sussman found guilty was not lying on the fbi, did the jury get it right, what is next for the durham investigation. ♪ ♪ how's he still playin'? aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength. reduces inflammation. don't touch my piano. kick pain in the aspercreme. trey: welcome back to "sunday night in america" this week a washington d.c. jury found michael sussman not guilties lying to the fbi, allegation he lied when he gave fbi information about an alleged secret channel between trump organization and a russian bank. that took place in 2016, well after the fbi first began investigating trump campaign, i am sorry to disappoint the left, this verdict does not end the durham investigation, the durham's job to find out what they did way before 2016, prosecutors do lose cases, it's not the end of the world or an investigation, proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt is hard . >> how would you like to sell that to a jury? how would you like to convince a jury that the fbi was somehow victimized by i lawyer the entire world knew was connected w

trey: up next, verdict in michael sussman found guilty was not lying on the fbi, did the jury get it right, what is next for the durham investigation. dad, when is the future? um, oh wow. um, the future is, uh, what's ahead of us. i don't get it. yeah. maybe this will help. so now we're in the present. and now... we're in the future. the all-electric chevy bolt euv with available super cruise™ for hands-free driving. - dad. - yeah? do fish get thirsty? eh. find new answers. find new roads. chevrolet. wealth is breaking ground on your biggest project yet. worth is giving the people who build it a solid foundation. wealth is shutting down the office for mike's retirement party. worth is giving the employee who spent half his life with you, the party of a lifetime. ♪ ♪ wealth is watching your business grow. worth is watching your employees grow with it. ♪ ♪ like pulsing, electric shocks, sharp, stabbing pains, or an intense burning sensation. what is this nightmare? it's how some people describe... shingles. a painful, blistering rash that could interrupt your life for weeks.

i want to switch gears here while i have you to make sure we get in your take on the sussman trial. in the wake of the acquittal of clinton campaign lawyer sussmans they are taking a victory lap and the future viability of john durham's probe at large into the origins of trump/russia investigation. >> it's been as nine from the start. investigation of the deep state? this investigation of the investigators is much ado about nothing. it cost millions of dollars. what do they have to show for it at this time? >> not much. >> the hammer was supposed to finally come down. instead it was time to hear the sad trombone sound track. >> the verdict was a blow for the durham probe but it is not dead in the water, right? >> it was a blow undoubtedly and disappointing from my perspective. what joe scarborough, what he is talking about? they're investigating the fact that guess what, hillary clinton's campaign manager said that hillary clinton was personally involved in the decision to plant a story within the f.b.i., plant a story within the media that was a fabrication, it was a lie in this co

barry sussman, the city editor was the most hands-on editor. a brilliant conceptualize her and agitator and you know, it is such an important lesson. one he taught us. we work all day, work sometimes until nine or 10:00 on a story and then sussman would say let's meet and we'd say you want to meet and he said we have to meet and think about the next day. we just don't go blindly into the next day. where are you going, what are the leads? what's the story? and that ability to kind of get attempt to wind and say let's meet was really important to the story and the sense of pacing the story and making sure he was involved in directing us but also we were self directing in many ways. particularly you. you're the most self-directed person i ever met. >> let me ask you this and that is of all the stories you did and that early stretch when you guys were basically out alone on the story are there a couple that stand out in your mind either for the significance of the revelation or the sheer shoe leather that wentinto producing them ? >> there are two

sussman, one question for you. announcer: c-span's washington journal, every day we are taking your calls live on the air, on the news of the day. and we will discuss policy issues that impact you. wednesday morning we will look at the economic outlook for the next decade with the president of the committee for a responsible federal budget. then a speaker with the national event -- mental health alliance to talk about gun control laws. join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, text messages and tweets. announcer: on thursday, the house judiciary committee will debate and vote on a package of gun safety measures. among them, an increase in the age limit to buy certain firearms, and a ban on high-capacity ammunition magazines. watch live at 10:00 a.m. eastern , or anytime online at c-span.org. announcer: c-span brings you an unfiltered view of government, our newsletter word for word recasts the day from the halls of congress to daily press briefings, to remarks from the president. scan the qr cod

d well, one of the jurors is the parent of a classmate of sussman's daughter. get this the judge is married to disgraced former fbi agent lisa page's defense attorney. >> so the next time you hear all the caterwauling from the elite media, the political class about the tragic and misguided public trust in d.c., officials look no further than this predictable travesty. and four weeks aftere t the leak of samuel alito's draft opinionh on the roe vs. wade case, well, officials of the courtd announced unprecedented measures are going to be taken or persons personun responsible for that leak. according to cnn law clerks are being asked to provide cellco phone records and sign affidavits. some clerks are apparently so alarmed over the moves, particularly a sudden request for private cell data that they've begun exploring whether to hire outsideut counsel. joining us now is carrie severino, president of judicial crisisjo network, also a forme, clerk, azmy for justice thomas . carrie, seems likeli this took four weeks. because it's kind of funny becausere those are exa

let's turn to the acquittal of michael sussman. he was a lawyer for the clinton campaign, 2016, and he was charged with lying to the fbi. this was always going to be a tough case for a prosecutor, john durham, because it's a keyes can jury. many are saying -- it's a d.c. jury. many are saying it was a lousy verdict. >> absolutely. and i think a lot of conservative cans were frustrate thed because they felt for years john durham was going to have the something to show for his investigation. millions of dollars spent, lots of digging and probing, and here is a case where they thought they were going to get a conviction, and then a d.c. jury said absolutely not. there's a lot of frustration on the right, and a lot of folks on the left are saying, ah, relief. howard: right. this is the only case durham has brought to trial even hoe there was a lot of -- though there was a lot of high publicity about a lot of people thought he's going to get to the bottom of this whole russia hoax. there was evidence that michael sussman did misrepresen

politics of this, in particular, one man, donald trump as you can imagine, he wasn't happy with the sussman -- >> i look forward to bill durham's report, that is the one i look forward to. >> what happened to durham? where is durham? >> by the way, where is durham? what happened to durham? where is he? he disappeared? >> it's hard to imagine, i, mean someone waiting so intently on the prosecutors findings is playing fairly here. i mean, didn't trump know from the outset that this durham probe was phony. or did that not necessarily matter to him as long as he can just weave this narrative about his campaign and what happened in 2016 that of politics. >> well, a, man i could also ask that's very same question on a number of false claims that former president trump has made. i mean, i think the -- to meet the goal as somebody who has studied trump who has obviously covered him for a long time. the goal has always been to have people talking about him. have people having the discussion about whether or not the 2016 campaign and hillary clinton's campaign was wrong and whether or not they should

a federal journey has found michael sussman not guilty. on a charge of lying to the fbi. the trial was part of special counsel john durham's lengthily investigation into the origin of the trump russia probe. the case centered around a september 2016 meeting with then top fbi lawyer james baker. we're sussman passed along data that he believed indicated a possible communications back channel between the trump campaign and a russian. bank we all remember the story. prosecutors accuse them of misrepresenting himself in the meeting. telling baker that he was passing on the information as a concerned citizen. when prosecutors claimed he actually had two clients, the clinton campaign, and a tech executive. who oversaw research into the russian bank. here is assessment speaking after his acquittal. >> first, i told the truth to the fbi and the jury clearly recognized with their unanimous verdict today. despite being falsely of clues, i'm relieved the justice ultimately prevailed in my case. >> durham's probe has lasted three years and donald trump and those in his orbit pinned a

forget about sussman, it's the system. >> forget it, forget it. forget about the three years, forget about what then president trump said. forget about what hannity and fox said, forget about the three years, heck, forget about a couple of days ago when on fox, this trial was touted as the answer. and that's the difference between news, analysis, insights, whatever you might get from people who can use the facts and add to it and then people who can't deal with the facts, who can't handle the truth, to use the old movie quote. hannity, ingram, carlson, trump, everyone who has cheered on this trial can't handle the truth that was found in this trial which we point out last night ended in a tough way because prosecutors virtually always win these kinds of cases when they go to trial, which is why most of them don't. the lawyers tell their client, plead out for a lesser charge. here it went to trial, and they lost badly, so their response is telling, and it tells you something about how to deal with these issues going forward because the trick and th

a federal jury found michael sussman not guilty of lying about whether he represented clinton's campaign when he passed along evidence of a possible link between russia and donald trump. the verdict is a setback for special counsel john durham who was appointed three years ago by the trump administration to look for possible wrongdoing among federal agents who investigated trump's 2016 campaign. >>> "the seattle times" says a 9-year-old girl is recovering after she was attacked by a cougar in washington state. wildlife officials say the girl was playing hide and seek with her friends at a church camp saturday. the cougar attacked when the girl jumped out to surprise her friends. she remains hospitalized in stable condition. camp workers say they warn kids about dangerous animals when they arrive. >> we just have to be very, very careful and let all of our campers know not to go anywhere by themselves, especially at night. always take a buddy with you no matter what, always have a buddy and how to react and what to do for their own safety. >> the cougar was killed after the attack. >>> an

a federal jury found michael sussman, a lawyer with ties to hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign not guilty of lying to the f.b.i. when he brought them evidence of a possible link between donald trump and russia. it was the first case to go to trial in the three-year investigation. the korean visited with president biden today and appeared at a white house briefing. the teen heartthrob group's visit was aimed at promoting asian inclusion and equality and addressing anti-asian hate crimes and disinformation. all right, coming up next, how tiktok helped a small nonprofit reach thousands of donors and families in need. i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) o-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. ♪♪ making friends again, billy? i like to keep my enemies close. guys, excuse me. i didn't quite get that. i'm hard of hearing. ♪♪ oh hey, don't forget about the tense music too.

and they'll also be saying what larry said, barry sussman pushing, dealing with them and others, that made a huge difference too. and that was a great combination. the rest of us were pretty much one and two loan reporters doing work. bob and karl were the hub and the core of a team. and that, that helped make their assignments clear. >> -- thank you. >> [applause] well, i want to reiterate or put it somewhere differently, something that richard ben-veniste said earlier. for all of this, i envision a three legged stool. there was the press, media, there was the judiciary, the legal process, and there was the legislature. and we all did our jobs and functioned as we should have. and at one point, i was kind of accosted by and fbi agent who was one of the investigators of war the gate and, he said to be, he said, you know we had all that we! had all that. and i said, yeah, but we didn't have it. and the public didn't have it. you know it. we got it out there. and that, to the great credit of a bob and karl and barry was that we did get it out there and we had two important readers at le