hutchinson: mr. meadows was having -- and what i just spent understand it was more -- and what i understand, it was more of what i am hearing. we want you to be to -- aware of it. you are the chief of staff and -- conversations -- you should be ready to take action on this. i am concerned with you and your positioning. reach out to me if you have questions or if i can be helpful. rep. cheney: inside the white house, the president advisors including members of this family wanted delivered -- these delivered to the country. -- delivered by a pretaped video on january 7. when he arrived at the white house on the seventh, mr. fielding believed that more needed to be set so he started writing. he shared the draft to someone who believed the president needed to say more. mr. pallone agree with the concept -- context. the committee has learned that the president did not agree to the draft and resisted giving a speech. do you recall discussions about the president's speech on january 7? [applause] i do --ms.

a cassidy hutchinson, not ivanka trump. these women who at this difficult time when somebody needs to stand up for democracy, she's doing this and it's actually i think easier to do the right thing and i think she will find that out and i think she will inspire other young women to realize public service is a great thing to be involved in and we don't need to have the kind of ridiculous boys that we had during the trump administration. a lot of these guys have young daughters or kids cassidy's age and she should be ashamed they're making her carry the cross when they should be doing it themselves. >> you worked in the administration. how were women, especially junior staffers viewed, although frankly, cassidy hutchinson, you know, by her age, you would say she was a junior staffer, but obviously she had tremendous responsibility and was a point person for the chief of staff. but how were women viewed, treated by not only the former president, but the senior staff in general? >> well, you know, the president was known for ma

sources say miss hutchinson is one of those witnesses. as for questions how at least some republicans are feeling now about the former president, listen to what congresswoman cheney said last night at the reagan presidential library in southern california and listen to the reaction she got. >> republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump and loyal to the constitution. at this moment -- [ applause ] >> joining us now, "new york times" washington correspondent and cnn analyst maggie haber mann. what is your sense of how the former president, is he worried or his allies worried about what cassidy hutchinson has testified to? >> during her testimony, there was a lot of anxiety. since her testimony, there's less because of these discrediting efforts that you are seeing. she was pretty clear on the most explosive thing that she talked about, which was this secret service car incident that she was talking about something that she didn't know first-hand. a lot of what she has said in that haerg has been stood up in other ways. the most import

that was the bombshell from kad d cassidy hutchinson. now that the secret service said they heard a version of these. what do you make of it? >> one, donald trump knew the crowd was armed. i have not seen anything to cast doubt on her testimony about that. and, two, that donald trump wanted badly to go down to the capitol. do you know who has confirmed that? at least two other staffers we saw testimony from, documents confirm that and donald trump has said publicly, although he's changed his story several times, but he has said publicly he wanted to go to the capitol. we're in this credibility battle between cassidy hutchinson and tony ornato about whether the president lunged at the steering wheel. either cassidy made this up, she didn't see it, she said tony did tell her that story. i think the new reporting from ryan mitigates pretty strongly in cassidy hutchinson's favor because now we know this story is out there, that people are telling this story and it's being passed from person to person. to me it makes it more likely that cassi

miss hutchinson, how did the president react to hearing that news? >> around the time that i understand the article went live, i remember hearing a noise coming from down the hallway so i post my head out of the office and i saw the valet walking towards our office. he had said get the chief down to the dining room, the president wants him. mark went down to the dining room, came back to the office a few minutes later, after mark had returned, i left the office and went down to the dining room, and i notice that the door is propped open and the valley it was inside the dining room changing the tablecloth off of the dining room table. the motion for me to come in, and pointed to the front of the room near the fireplace mantle on the tv. that is where i first noticed that there was ketchup dripping down the wall and there is a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. the valley had articulated that the president was extremely angry. at the attorney general's apa interview. he had thrown lunch against the wall. that was causing this to clean up. i grabbe

directed towards hutchinson and what was the message? listen. >> this is a call received by one of our witnesses. quote, a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. >> hutchinson did do the right thing. she testified under oath, which everyone agrees takes courage. you can't say the same though for donald trump and allies who have now launched a smear campaign against her. manu raju is "outfront" live for us on capitol hill this evening. first, what can you tell us about this call to hutchinson that was allegedly done at behes of her former boss, mark meadows. >> we are learning the two episodes liz cheney described in vivid detail in the hearing about outreach to hutchinson that suggests potential witness intimidation, both of those did go to cassidy hutchinson. we are also learning this came from intermediary of mark meadows then white house chief of staff. in one of those mes

our witness today, miss cassidy hutchinson, has embodied a courage. i would not get into a lot of detail about misogyny since testimony. i will allow her words to speak for themselves, and i hope everyone at home will listen closely. first, i recognize our distinguished vice chair, miss liz cheney of wyoming. >> thank you, mister chairman. in our first five hearings, the committee has heard from a significant number of republicans, including former trump administration justice department officials, trump campaign officials, several members of trump's were asked staff, prominent conservative judge and others. today's witness, miss cassidy hutchinson is another republican and another former member of president trump's white house staff. certain of us in the house of representatives recall that miss hutchinson once worked for republican house rep steve scalise but she's also a familiar face on capitol hill, because she upheld the prominent role in the white house affairs legislative office. she's later the principal aide to president trump's chief of sta

cassidy hutchinson's life changed when a u.s. marshall knocked on her door with a subpoena from the committee, she was 25 years old, when the marshall put that subpoena in her hands. she turned 26 shortly before she testified publicly in front of the committee and now for the rest of her life, she will be known as the woman who testified against the president. just as john dean, at age 35, became known for the rest of his life as the man who testified against the president, when he told the truth to a senate committee about his conversations with president richard nixon, 49 years ago. cassidy hutchinson, could not afford to run up huge legal bills, fighting the subpoena, especially since, as a judge ruled today in steve bannon's case, there are no legal grounds on which to fight such subpoenas from the january 6th committee. in her first interviews with the committee, cassidy hutchinson was presented by a lawyer paid for by donald trump, using the political contributions from trump supporters, of course, not using donald trump's

, according to hutchinson. how can that be executive privilege, his conversations with an aide in the white house? this is not conversations with the president. >> correct. and executive privilege is also, you know, not absolute. and when you have a situation like the one we have where the president himself was attempting to overturn an election and the president himself was attempting to stay in power, you know, the interests of making sure the american people understand what happened certainly outweigh the interests of that privilege. >> reporter: we asked cheney about the explosive allegation she made at the close of this week's hearing. that witnesses coming before the committee have been threatened by people close to trump. abc news has learned that cassidy hutchinson was one of those witnesses subject to intimidation. do you know who was doing it? >> i don't want to comment on that. but it's very serious. it really goes to the heart of our legal system. and it's something the committee will certainly be r

hutchinson. i'm surprised they have not done so. we interviewed her four times. i think that's publicly known at this point. >> yeah. >> and the fourth interview was very compelling. and it's obvious she's being intimidated, people are trying to discredit her, people are trying to dissuade her from testifying. the trump world was paying for her lawyers, which was very problematic for her. she changed lawyers and got an independent lawyer. and then proceeded. i was surprised that the prosecutors were surprised. what are they doing over there? they have a much greater opportunity to enforce their subpoenas than our legislative committee does. >> that's a point some of us were discussing this morning. the last question is the issue of so-called witness tampering. do you feel like you have enough evidence to prove that is what's happened? >> well, i don't know. charging someone with a crime is not our opportunity. we can't do that. we're a legislative committee. but i will say this. but if witnesses

now, hutchinson has been represented by longtime trump white house lawyer, stephan pat and tina. for the last year and a half, his law firm has received payments ranging from 10 to $45,000 from trumps save america pack for legal consulting. this is all in the public record, washington post reporting hutchison cut ties after she suggested that she not testify publicly, the post also pointed out, federal laws, tamper congressional testimony. in case none of that was not crystal clear to you, tampering with a witness is a crime, so the new details, they are chilling, they found a lot. like the kind of thing you hear from fictional mob bosses. >> as long as i continue to be a team player , they know i am on the right team. i am doing the right thing. >> we know you did the right thing. >> you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know, he is thinking about you. >> listen, danny, we want you to know how glad we are the guy like you was on the jury. >> he knows your loyal. >> loyal to my father for years. >> you know i will continue to stay in good grace and in trump wo

cassidy hutchinson's testimony tuesday mauvmoved the ball forw. i want to start with the second line of that passage first. what charges, as you listen to cassidy hutchinson, as you're looking at this as a former prosecutor, what charges do you think the former president is most vulnerable to based on the testimony? >> i really think an incitement offense is actually the most easiest to charge and the most plausible right now. there is a statue that is straightforward that says it's a federal offense to incite a riot. you know the former president was there speaking. you also, obviously, many of the people in the crowd ending up attacking the capitol shortly thereafter. the reason there was a lot of skepticism by many legal observers, including myself that charge would result is because there was a bar set by the first amendment that said essentially unless the former president was trying to incite imminent lawless action that would be politically protected speech. i thought miss hutchinson's statement regarding the metal detectors and the former

. >> former white house aide cassidy hutchinson on president trump learning his january 6th people were armed. >> i tonight care that they have weapons, they're notere to hurt me. >> mr. trump insisting to join. >> i'm the f'ing president, take me to the capitol. >> and mark meadows on learning that they want to hang mike pens. >> he thinks mike deserves it. >> now challenges to some of her testimony. republicans are again dismissing the hearing. >> partisan hearing, to keep going after donald trump not to get facts. >> this morning i'll talk to nbc legal news analyst danny savalos. >>> plus, after roe. >> i don't think it could get more confusing. >> abortion restrictions are being challenged in more than a dozen states. >> trigger law is an extremist law. >> warning the bide enadministration is not fighting hard enough. >>> and democrats' growing doubts about president biden. >> democrats have a very deep niche and it's time to allow a new generation to emerge and new talent. >> why more democrats mostly off the record are saying the president shouldn't run for president. joining me a

cassidy hutchinson's testimony is over now. it is a federal crime to retaliate against a witness after the fact, to take certain harmful actions in response to somebody testifying. if anybody has any ideas, they ought to lose them right now. >> yeah, no question about that, and everyone has been talking about the story of this irate, you know, trump demanding to go to the capitol that day on january 6th. cassidy hutchinson says she was told about it by tony ornato who is now a secret service agent directing the secret service training facility, but back then he was trump's deputy chief of staff, and he was the deputy chief of staff there after the being in the secret service and working close to trump. ornato apparently denies having this conversation, but now our sources in the secret service are saying this story was known inside the agency for months and months they were talking about this. how does this play into the investigation, do you think? >> well, it's one more indicator of cassidy hutchinson's credibility in my view

hutchinson's committee. how do you reconcile the confirmation we're getting from our reporting, joyce, to the meadows' camp's statement that we have here? >> mark meadows should come and say that under oath to the committee. because until he does that, until he matches hutchinson's testimony under oath, this is just another statement from someone who has been a little bit frivolous with the truth in the past. you know, these statements, when you look at them, the reported threats, and i think they're very clearly threats that are made to cassidy hutchinson, they read like scenes from a part of the "godfather" franchise. these are the things, when you've agreed to testify and you're involved in organized crime. this isn't a friendly communication, it's a very clear threat that's been issued. the real question is how long it will take the justice department to open an investigation and begin looking at this. doj has to take witness intimidation very seriously, because what we do as prosecutors, our ultimate go

one witness they're concerned about is cassidy hutchinson. witness intimidation is a serious focus. cnn learned that the examples of possible witness intimidation on tuesday directed at the witness cassidy hutchinson. >> you will do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. i think most americans know that atfrlting to influence witnesses to testify untruthfully presents serious searches. >> reporter: sources belief the pressure was applied at the behest after mark meadows. no one from the meadows' camp sought to intimidate or shape the conversations with the committee. he said in a statement to cnn. the accusations come when "the new york times" reports that organizations close to donald trump helping to pay for the legal fees. it's a practice not uncommon or illegal but according to the former senior investigator it raises potential problems. >> it does run the risk to be less cooperative than they would be if they had attorneys advising them paid by the client. in other words, the witness themselves. >> reporter: also still working with secret service to schedule anothe

hutchinson was a trump ally, one might even say loyalist. and she already testified in three committee depositions -- there was a recorded, behind closed doors. then something happened and she agreed to come out and testify publicly. and the committee felt confident enough in her testimony to make her the sole star witness of a special surprise hearing that they knew everyone would have their eyes on. and the best we can tell is, what happened was that she switched lawyers. and initially, hutchinson was represented by an attorney recommended to her by trump aides, paid for with money from trump's political action committee. she then fired that lawyer after, quote, he suggested she not testify publicly, [inaudible] the conclusion of 20 hours of closed depositions. then, hutchinson hired someone new. a republican lawyer named joe durant. then she agreed to sit for a fourth opposition with the committee and it was in that deposition, reportedly, we're she revealed new information, which led to her public testimony this week. and this shift brin

hutchinson? >> was furious because he wanted the arena on the ellipse to be maxed out at capacity for all attendees. the team had relayed to him that everybody who wanted to come and had already come in, but he was still angry about the extra space and wanted more people to come in. >> did you go to the rally in the presidential motorcade? i was there, yes. in the motorcade. >> or you backstage with the president and other members of his staff and family? >> i was. >> you told us about particular comments you heard while in that area. >> when we were in the announced area tent behind the stage, he was very concerned about the shot -- the photograph we would get -- because the stage was not looking for. he said he wanted it to be full and for people not to feel excluded because they had come far for the rally. he thought the mags were at fault for not leading everybody in -- not letting everybody in. he wanted it full and he was angry that they were not letting people through the mags with weapons

way in the months -- before hutchinson's testimony. those sources say they heard about it from multiple agents, including the driver of the presidential suv. they say the details were similar to how hutchinson described it. as for what's ahead, next wednesday is the deadline for trump's former white house counsel, pat cipollone, to testify before the committee. he is seen as a key january 6th witness. one who allegedly and repeatedly resisted trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 elections. nbc news reports that cipollone reportedly agreed to a transcribed interview, limited to specific topics. the other guy, is expressing more legal pressure. trump's media company it subpoenaed by a federal grand journey in connection to a criminal probe. the company was also subpoenaed by the securities and exchange commission forcible probe. let's get some help from the legal panel, look broadwater, pulitzer prize-winning congressional reporter for the new york times, and barbara mcquade, a veteran federal prosecutor and former u.s. attorney for the

nbc news confirming cassidy hutchinson was one of the witnesses contacted by trump. in an apparent effort to influence her january six testimony. new details about who urged her to, quote, do the right thing. and whether this is a clear case of witness tampering. msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade is standing by. plus, liberals still reeling from the supreme court's stunning decisions from this term. we will put into context just how devastating it was for certain rights, some of which originated with thomas jefferson. and later, florida schools rolling out lgbtq restrictions as the states don't say gay law takes effect. it's impact already being felt. all of, that and more is coming up. and they're good saturday morning to. you i am katie phang. if you are one of the millions of people flying or hitting the roads this holiday weekend, pack your patience. sky high gas prices, canceled flights, and picketing pilots are just a few of the travel woes americans are facing ahead of their vacations. -- it's live from reagan national airport with what we can expect. gary?

cassidy hutchinson describes nothing less than a violent coup attempt urged by the past president. mr. trump knew the mob was on and wanted to go to the hospital with them, and agreed vice president mike pence deserved to be hang. >> knives and guns and rifles and body armor >> we had three men walking down >> io overheard the president says, i don't care if they are weapons. >> presi >> president trump was aware they were wearing body armor >> we'll walk down to the capitol. >> the president says to me, i am the effin' president, take me up to the capitol now. bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel, mr. angle, grabbed his arm, sir, you need to take your hands off the steering wheel we are going back to the west wing, we are not going to the capitol. mr. trump used his hand to lounge at bobby angle. >> i remember mark saying we need to do something more, they literally calling the vice president to be effin' hung. mark responded, you heard it pat. he thinks he deserves it >> j

in this incredible testimony this past week from cassidy hutchinson, the former trump white house aide, chief of staff to mark meadows, she testified she heard conversations inside the white house about this far right group and another one called the oath keepers. is there corroborating evidence to show that there was communication between those militias and the white house? >> i don't want to get too far ahead of what we intend to present in our next hearings, but our very next hearing will be -- who was participating, how it was organized including the participation of these white nationalist groups like the proud boys, the 3%ers and others. we'll presenting all the information we have. answer all the questions we've and continue our investigation into precisely what you're describing. >> hutchinson said rudy giuliani was someone she personally heard talking about them. >> this is one of the reasons that we had interest in his testimony and interest in the testimony of others. we obviously want to probe any connection between these dangerous groups and the white house. i think we've

hutchinson did, if that's a fair assessment there. >> so that's a member of the committee defending hutchinson and the public testimony under oath that we have seen so far. of course, what's being disputed here is how physical drama played out in that suv on january 6 and not the testimony that trump desperately wanted to join his supporters at the capitol. that appears to be holding up, john. >> katelyn polantz, thank you very much for that. raises all kinds of questions. >>> let's bring in cnn's senior law enforcement analyst and former deputy director of the fbi andrew mccabe to answer some of those questions here. talk to us about witness tampering, first off, because it's really tricky to prove. so what can the committee do here as they're raising this issue? >> yeah, so, brianna, it's an interesting -- it's an interesting issue because it's a crime that is very hard to prove and prosecute, but not that hard to investigate. so on the prosecution side 18 usc 1512 makes it a crime to essentially corruptly persuade someone to alter their testimony or prevent them from giving testimony. and t

confirmed that that vailed warning was sent to hutchinson. two sources say she was contacted by someone attempting to influence her testimony. a source familiar with hutchinson deposition says the person referenced at the beginning of the message was former white house chief of staff mark meadows. meadows has denied that he or anyone in the camp attempted to influence her testimony. but a reminder, he could always just answer the committee subpoena and say that under oath. there's also the question of why we even received this public testimony from cassidy hutchinson. former trump white house official revealed on thursday that she is the one who put hutchinson in touch with liz cheney. >> trump world was assigning lawyers to a lot of the staffers who themselves don't have big -- >> assigning lawyers? >> covering the costf lawyers for people who don't have big legal defense funds to themselves. >> paying cassidy hutchinson's lawyer? >> that's my understanding. she had someone who had been in the white house counsel office, still aligned with t

hutchinson took us inside the white house in the days leading up to and on january the six. as trump and his inner circle carried out their campaign to overturn our election. hutchison testified that repeated warnings of violence on that day were simply ignored by trump and other white house officials, including her boss. >> was it your understanding that mr. ornado told the president about weapons at the rally on the morning of january the six? >> that is what mr. are not related to me. >> here is how you characterized mr. meadows general response when people raised general concerns about what could happen on january six. >> so at the time and the days leading up to the six, there were lots of reports about how things might go bad on the six, even potential for violence. if i am hearing correctly, it seems to you and mr. meadows did not share those concerns, at least did not have those concerns? >> they did not act on those concerns would be accurate. >> according to her and atkinson, trump demanded that security checkpoints at his rally be removed, fearing it would take aw

hutchinson over ornado at this point. they said they are willing to let both the individuals come before the committee again and testify under oath. if they do that, john, that opens them up to answering questions on a host of things, not just this specific incident as well. and it's important to point out that the committee believes the most important part of that testimony is not whether or not donald trump lunged at the steering wheel or even potentially attacked a member of the secret service. it's that he wanted to go to the capitol and he was angry about it. and there is no one disputing that fact up until this point. now, as to whether or not this all plays out in public, if it does, it may not be for some time. it's clear the committee wants the conversation behind closed doors at least to start, and then they'll see if it takes the stage of being another public testimony. at this point the committee has not brought forward individuals or witnesses that would be conflicting in an open setting. ornado may fall unde

hutchinson is very courageous. she provided a lot of context and details about what happened on that day. that corroborate what many of us thought and believed for sometime. the former president sicked the mob on the capitol and cheered them on. didn't lift a finger to help and in fact encouraged it all and certainly sympathetic to those who wanted to hang pikemike pen. she was there where he was misbehaving. republicans in congress probably really regret the fact they appoint anybody to that select committee. to provide alternative point of view. they chose not to. and so you are hearing an argument that's powerful and frankly one sided. that is why the people in trump world ought to be real nervous and i suspect doj are watching all the hearings. the committee doesn't have to send anything over to doj. they can bring about indictments on their own. i would be very nervous right now if i were some of the folks in the white house and some on the hill who may have aid and abetted in what happened that day. >> consid

i think until cassidy hutchinson trump was very rarely mentioned. we talked to people who said it almost felt like they couldn't mention him unless it was in the context of a motivating factor for those that attacked the capitol and did some sort of act of violence on january 6th. what cassidy did, she started talking about things that sound like criminal intent and suddenly prosecutors felt they could more openly talk about the idea of criminal intent including top leaders like lisa monaco, this is really important because the investigation is essentially being supervised by lisa monaco, the deputy attorney general. no big decision is made without her say-so, without her knowledge. from their point of view it's important that this line of communication was opened up, that they could be more forward, more forward facing and more frank about whether or not donald trump himself had criminal intent. >> katie, i know you're on the move and you stepped aside to be able to talk to us. thank you and thank you very much for your reporting. harry, obviously

hutchinson, that is impa impactful. the only thing that is secondhand that may need some corroboration is what happened in the beast in terms of him grabbing the wheel and going after secret service agent. i would love to hear them under oath testify. i do believe cipollone is going to do the right thing and testify as to what he can do. but as to whether or not this changes anything, for the first time after ms. hutchinson testified, i heard members of the conservative media where republicans get their news saying, this is damning, and this moved the ball down the field. so her testimony, i do think, moved the needle, and more people are paying attention to it. whether or not that will change hearts and minds, you know, at the end of the day remains to be seen. but she certainly has made a difference in this hearing. >> i want to get to charlie. i was just handed this information. according to "the new york times," "the new york times" is reporting former president donald j. trump's political organization and his allie

he has called cassidy hutchinson totally discredited, he said she's making up stories. and then he said this -- >> the woman is living in fantasy land. i think the woman is, she's got serious problems, let me put it that way. mental problems. howard: so getting very personal. now, one serious issue has emerged and the new york times, fox, several networks reporting her account, the supposed physical altercation in the suv when he wanted to be driven to the capitol and was overruled by the secret service. hutchinson made clear she was told this by deputy chief of staff and by bobby engel, the elite secret service agent who was in that car and that engel was there during this conversation, didn't challenge the account. how important is this in the overall scheme of her testimony and her accusations? >> well, it's important enough because a lot of media ran with it. it was one of the slashiest revelations that -- splashiest relations that came out of the hearing. some people are saying, oh, well, if that turns out not to be true, it's not that big a deal because other thin

hutchinson did. the more and more we're hearing, the more we're getting a little bit more light shed on what actually transpired in that vehicle. no one disputing that trump was angry. no one disputing that despite knowing members of the crowd were angry, he was leading them to the capitol. >> thank you for that reporting. cnn political commentators, errol louis, and s.e. cupp, and jonathan, a former secret service agent himself under president obama. jonathan, i want to start with you. correct me if i'm wrong, isn't the biggest part of the story that if it was too dangerous for secret service agents to take the president to the capitol, it was too dangerous for the vice president and the lawmakers and the police officers who didn't know what they were about to be confronting and the trump administration did nothing to call off that crowd with weapons? >> absolutely. alisyn, that's spot on analysis right there. let's take a step back. we know that through prior testimony, we actually do know the pres

you have to look to the side of cassidy hutchinson that you believe. >> all members were huddling in nancy pelosi's office tonight unclear why all those she says they were just using the office space that there was nothing other than that going on but they are discussing possibly asking trump to testify but with that really happen? >> no. what they ask him perhaps. there would be some feeder behind any such request i think it would enable the committee to say he keeps complaining, no one is here to defend him this is one sided well we invited him in and he will not take it and they can say well he turned on his chance but in reality if they wanted his testimony they will not be able to get it because they would have to go to court and fight him and they don't have time to do that anymore. >> thanks, we appreciate that. let's not forget the former president tried to call a member of the white house support staff who was talking to the january 6 committee next talking to the man who could call him patient 04 trump pressure campaigns. that is michael cohen, he is next. that barelely tou

attacking hutchinson and questioning her credibility. all because of a dispute over one aspect of her testimony. the secret service arguing the details she recounted being told about trump lunging at his detail inside a presidential suv are not accurate. the former president clearly backing the secret service members part of the story. arnado and angle. >> they are grea

-- hutchinson made it clear that everyone in the former president's inner circle knew that bad stuff was going to go down on the 6th. >> i went back up to our office and i found mr. meadows in his office on the couch. he was scrolling through his phone. i remember leaning against the doorway and saying, "i just had an interesting conversation with rudy, mark. it sounds like we're going to go to the capitol." he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, "there's a lot going on, cass. but, i don't know. things might get real, real bad on january 6th." >> stephen: so, the president's chief of staff knew there could be terrible consequences, and went ahead with it anyway? "huh, what? yeah, oh, yeah, i think this rash might be an s.t.d., but... i don't know, let's put on some marvin gaye and just see where the evening takes us." ( laughter ) the president really wanted to accompany his mob up to the capitol, but white house lawyer pat cipollone really did not want that to happen, for a damn good reason. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked out onto west ex

for all the comparisons to john dean, cassidy hutchinson might have actually surpassed expectations, but with these revelations and with the committee achieving what they wanted to do, which was breakthrough to the broader american public, has also come in tense scrutiny and criticism from trump and his allies specifically, trying to poke holes in cassidy hutchinson's credibility and open the committee up to criticism that they did not thoroughly vet some of her claims in the lead up to the scramble to get her on the dais. that said, the majority of her testimony has not been contested. there was only one small anecdote, that anonymous secret service agents have come out against, but the rest of it has so far stood the test of time, and there are other committees hoping to subpoena republicans like pat cipollone to corroborate the testimony, such as that the president actually encouraged armed rioters to go to the capitol. yamiche: pat cipollone was just subpoenaed to testify. how problematic might it be for the committee if he does not show up? >> the committee right now, it is a fa

first of all, cassidy hutchinson under oath, the people denying it, not yet under oath. we have pat cipollone and his testimony, not inconsistent with what she said. we have reporting that this was a story circulated widely throughout secret service. and now i have this, the strongest piece of evidence we have seen yet. the key point is undisputed. donald trump wanted to go to the capitol, in the secret service prevented him. we know that because donald trump admitted that. he set it, bragged about it, an interview with the washington post. >> added to this, what we're hearing, and i can't give contacts, i can just say that we have learned members of the select committee have gone together to the office of nancy pelosi. i know that you don't know exactly why that is happening either, but i note that is a significant development here at 7:12 pm eastern time. >> we don't know what that meeting is about. obviously, there are a lot of moving parts and a lot of things we have just learned today, including some of these concerning things about messages being deleted from the s

as we saw when we heard this testimony from cassidy hutchinson. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked out on to west exec that morning, and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> aaron blake goes on to compare cipollone's testimony to that of former attorney general bill barr, writing this, "barr has already proved a significant witness because of his own misgivings and willingness to testify about them. but unlike barr, who resigned in late december 2020, cipollone was still around for many of the key late events, and his willingness to shed light upon them could turn the guy whose big entry into the public's consciousness was to defend trump to the hilt, into a very significant witness against trump." joining our conversation, former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade, who's now a university of michigan law professor, ben rhodes is back, former deputy national security advisor to

remember, hutchinson testified that cipollone -- >> mr. cipollone said something to the effect of please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime manageable if we make that movement happen. >> will we see some of cipollone's testimony? >>> meanwhile, one has gone from defending the white house days, investigating trump's actions on january 6th. why? i put that and more to trump acting chief of staff mick mulvaney. sir, thanks so much for being here. >> kasie, thanks as always for having me. >> you previously predicted the committee was going to work on getting pat cipollone's testimony and he's going to show up. now that is happening. what do you think he's going to offer to the committee? >> the truth. i know pat. i worked very closely with pat for 15 months, actually more than that when i was in the white house in the west wing. and pat will tell the truth. there is no question about it. will he corroborate what cassidy hutchinson said? will he counter what she s

three sources tell cnn that is what hutchinson told the january 6th committee. she was one of the two witnesses who received threatening messages shown at this week's hearing. committee vice chair liz cheney suggested that was only a fraction of the evidence they have related to what she called possible witness intimidation. >>> and "the new york times" is reporting that trump's political organization and his allies paid for or promised to cover the legal fees of more than a dozen witnesses called to testify in the january 6th investigation. this is raising more ethical and legal questions about witnesses being pressured and the possibility of trump trying to influence testimony that has a direct bearing on him. >> joining us now "early start" anchor, former justice correspondent laura jarrett and political correspondent at the "new york times" mike bender, michael bender, he is the author of "frankly, we did win the election: the inside story of how trump lost." mike, great to have you with us. i'm going to start with you. you contributed to a story in the "new

that's according to a source familiar with hutchinson's deposition. cnn further reports that, quote, hutchinson's security was a grave concern of the committee leading up to the hearing. it was part of why they kept their identity secret leading up to the meeting. cnn further reports that members of the committee have also suggested that the two examples they presented were only a fraction of the evidence they have related to possible witness intimidation. as we first covered on this show last night, threatening messages are not the only issue at play here. trump's save america political action committee is paying and providing lawyers to some of the january 6th witnesses, which raises concerns about whether they are doing so out of the goodness of their heart or in an attempt to shut down their testimony. the washington post reports that hutchinson herself had one of those trump aligned lawyers representing her until she cut ties with them, this month, after he suggested that she not testify publicly, following 20 hours of closed depositions. the new

video for yourself and the january 6 committee says new witnesses are coming forward after cassidy hutchinson testimony are coming forward and now ruling out a criminal referral for former president trump. >>> president biden is kicking off the holiday with a tweet saying the country's best days lie ahead but he's facing a handle of challenges. jeremy diamond joins me from the white house. what is on the president's agenda today? >> reporter: president biden is still at camp david this morning but he will be returning to the white house to host military families for a bar be becue and celebration. the president saying the fourth of july is a sacred holiday, sacred day in our country. make no mistake, our best days still lie ahead. at the same time president biden is dealing with messaging on the current state of the country and the current state of the economy with high inflation and high gas prices which many americans are being reminded this weekend as they hit the roads for the fourth of july weekend. the president oaf the weekend taking to twitter to encourage and push gas station compani

it doesn't sound that way, based on hutchinson's testimony. it seems to me what pat cipollone was doing was putting fires out all over the white house every time donald trump was stepping over the line. none of that would be privileged. i agree with john. he ought to be up there testifying. the most important part about what he has to say, relates to matters that kassidy hutchinson has testified to. the most important thing is cooperate and support what she said. john can probably appreciate this more than anybody. when he testified everybody on the republican side of the house was saying he is not credible and not telling the truth. then outcome the nixon tapes. he was right on the money and couldn't have been more accurate. what is significant, he can actually cooperate exactly what kassidy hutchinson said. >> who couldn't trust a face like yours? you do raise a good point about credibility. do you think the fact that pat cipollone , he was standing up there for the first impeachment trial. he has evaded the opportunity to have that obligati

hutchinson, and what's the impact? >> cassidy hutchinson testified under oath about what she'd en told and soffer x collies i think should be -- some of her ex-colleagues should testify. here's how we know her testimony broke through. dona trump is calling her a wacko and a leaker, and a liar. some conservative commentators have been dismissing the whole committee as a clown show, attacking her great ability and defending the former president but this is split on the right. nick mulvaney, former acting white house chief of staff saying he believes hutchinson. but finally new reporting now about whether or not -- we know based on this reporting that trumped groups pay for her previous lawyer, which is interesting, but also that she says she got a phone her former boss, mark meadows, saying you, he knows you'll be loyal. that has raised questions that could boomerang about whether or not witnesses were being tampered with. >> mike: here's of the wall street editorial board responded. it doesn't mean republicans should lo

hutchinson. i'm surprised they have not done so. i was surprised that the prosecutors -- what are they doing over there? they have a greater opportunity to enforce their subpoenas than our legislative committee does. >> what are they doing over there? i mean, that's really -- yeah. >> it's been interesting because the committee and doj have been doing a delicate dance, at least publicly. behind the scenes there's been one as well and you're starting to see the frustration, what has long been simmering is starting to boil over. from the justice department's perspective when you talk to people tied to the investigation or some of cnn's reporting on the investigation, they have been very engaged on this. they just see that they're in a very different track than what the committee is, as congresswoman lofgren makes clear, there is a legislative intent versus a criminal intent. it's a different investigation. i think the interesting thing that remains, at least from the committee's perspective, is the political pressure that has just bee

let's start with cassidy hutchinson. what more are you learning about her cooperating with the doj investigation? >> reporter: the importance, erin, of cassidy hutchinson coming into the justice department providing some cooperation is that she and others, according to some of the reporting today, there are others at the white house who are also coming in to talk to prosecutors. obviously, these are people who were present during some of the momentous things that happened. of course, there was that january 4th meeting where the former president pressured mike pence, the vice president, to set aside the election results that he had the power to set aside those results, and to seat these fake electors, that they had gathered in the seven battleground states. all of that where they had witnesses there in the white house. of course, mark short and greg jacob, who were the aides to mike pence, have already come into the grand jury. you can expect that this is going to just bring -- the prosecutors are going to bring others be

of course, kaitlan, there was a lot more that hutchinson testified to that day. how significant is her testimony for the investigation at large? >> ryan, i spent this week talking to defense attorneys, former prosecutors and even a former defense attorney for donald trump in the white house and in the mueller investigation and the overwhelming response after cassidy hutchinson testified was this is different than what the president, the former president has faced before. that he does have legal exposure now because of some of the things that cassidy hutchinson testified to, specifically the idea that she recounted that he had been warned that he had been warned that rioters could be violent and armed and it could be illegal if he endorsed or condoned their behavior, especially go to capitol hill. and those facts that she's put out there, those have not been disputed in any of these statements that we've seen since her testimony trying to discredit her. >> ryan. >> we've been covering this from the very beginning. i don't think there is any doubt that there is a m