the people of wisconsin want it. the will of the people is the law of the land. >> what about background checks? gov. evers: i believe background checks should also be there. universal background checks are just common sense. just common sense. >> now we go to our next questioner, victor from cvs 58 and telemundo wisconsin. >> let's talk about this election process. investigations and audits into the 2020 election hath found no evidence of widespread voter fraud. despite that, there are voters in wisconsin tonight who still believed the -- believe the 2020 election was stolen and it will result in officials taking things away. what is your plan to rebuild confidence in the state election process? gov. evers: the last election was safe, secure, and there was not fraud. honest to gosh, one reason people are concerned about it is that we have people like my opponent to continue to talk about massive fraud without any idea or any specifics. it was safe, fair, and we can have confidence in our elections. when someone talk

the wisconsin counties association. let's go to our moderator, a veteran wisconsin broadcaster and professor of leadership and media integrity at loyola university chicago, jill geisler. >> good evening. on tuesday, november eighth, wisconsin voters will choose between two candidates for governor, incumbent democrat tony devers, and republican challenger tim michael's. they have agreed to do one date before the election and this is it. here are the rules to which everyone has agreed. with each question from our statewide panel of journalists, candidates will be told the length of time they have for a response, one minute or 30 seconds. we all see countdown clocks. when candidates hit their time limit, i will let them know. if they continue, i will note it and the microphone will cease to work. if candidates failed to answer a specific question or change the subject, i will exercise the moderators option to note that and give them just 30 seconds to provide a specific answer. please note, this debate provides an addition

>> it's wisconsin, first of all. take into account what the lieutenant governor set test said, he went on to today six times and denigrated law enforcement five years after police officers are -- in dallas. he rationalizes that. he is now talking about wisconsin, that we institutionalized racism here that we do it in a way that we conceal carry racism, i don't understand why mandela feels like this, i don't think he's the right person to represent wisconsin. he doesn't particularly like wisconsin or this country as many democratic leaders. but democrats do love this country, i am asking them to join us and do what president biden has not done and the left has never done. join us in unifying and healing and saving this country. our nation is at a precipice right now. the only guarantee is equal misery. chairwoman mcdonald, -- are you concerned about making the issue of biden and walkie? >> the people of milwaukee want crime gone as well. they don't want lawlessness, they want their streets safe their homes safe and th

let's give it up wisconsin. [applause] it is now my honor to introduce my friend, someone who works every day to make the city a better place, these welcome milwaukee where -- milwaukee mayor, cavalier johnson. [applause] >> all right, milwaukee. are we energized to vote for change? thank you, for that warm introduction. folks as a graduate of milwaukee public schools -- [applause] not just a graduate of milwaukee public schools but the mayor of this great city, i want to offer a warm welcome to each and every one of you. but most importantly, i went to well -- i went to offer a warm welcome to the great state of milwaukee, the former president of the united states, barack obama. the lucky, are you excited to see president obama? [applause] i am as well. this election is critical. it is important for our entire country, for all of the united states. i knew you know this much, but let me tell you what's at stake. my wife, dominique and i have a 12-year-old son and four-year-old twin daughters. madison and bella a

, someone who truly embodies the wisconsin idea, the same idea that made wisconsin become the first state to ratify the 19th amendment, the right to vote. [cheers and applause] i got a little encore for you all. because we are a state that advances the cause of women rights, not take them away. we are the first state to declare the fugitive slave act unconstitutional, the first state to have anti- discrimination laws based on ability on the books, and the first state to have antidiscrimination laws based on sexual orientation on the books. [cheers and applause] some one who has diligently held up that honor, taken us boldly into the future my good friend in your governor, tony evers, everybody. [cheers and applause] gov. evers: hello, everybody. thank you. >> [chanting] tony! gov. evers: thank you, milwaukee. thank you so much. thank you for being here today. let's hear it again for mandela barnes. [cheers and applause] he has been such a great partner for me. i can't wait to see him in the u.s. senate working alongside tammy baldwin. [cheers and applause] i also want to really have a sho

and wisconsin values. oh yes. when we do the right thing, wisconsin is better and stronger. when our kids have access to a quality education, they have a foundation for a lifetime of success. that is why i work with both parties to fund our public schools, our technical colleges. more than the last two decades. [applause] because we know what is best for our kids, is best for our state. we are not done yet. i'm going to continue to create opportunities for all of our kids by investing more in special education. [applause] more and mental health. [applause] and more for smaller class sizes. [applause] we are dealing with rising costs, we have put more money into your pockets. we cut income taxes for the middle class for 15%. we will continue addressing income tax cuts and relief to working families who need it most in the state of wisconsin. [applause] we have expanded affordable access to 387 thousand households in the state of wisconsin. we will expand access to another 300,000 in the next couple years. [

you have one minute. >> i want to thank the wisconsin broadcast association, and the wisconsin public tv station for hosting this. i thank the panelists for participating. i hope the questions will be fair and balanced and focused on the issues that impact wisconsin. i assume we have a good discussion on high inflation, record gas prices, skyrocketing crime, an open border, the threat of illegal drugs. i think it ought to be a state-by-state decision. the only thing on a federal basis, it doesn't make any sense for, marijuana's legal, what we are not able to use the banking system so the marijuana companies have loads of cash which leads to a potential for crime. so i can see federal legislation for those states with legalized marijuana. what i would suggest any state take a look seriously at the harm being done by the legalization of marijuana. >> thank you, senator>> -- >> thank you, senator. >> lieutenant governor. >> thank you for hosting the debate. thank you for the question. as a member of the legislature, now is lieutenant governor, i hope we can accomplish it as a nation if i

what is happening wisconsin affects not just wisconsin, but the whole country as well. amy: talking about mandela barnes, the lieutenant governor could become wisconsin's first black u.s. senator if he defeats republican incumbent ron johnson in november. during the protests in kenosha, wisconsin, in 2020, democracy now! spoke to barnes and asked him what is being done at the state level around police reform. >> we introduced for the governor introduced a legislative package. we know that a legislative package is not going to solve the deep problems, but it takes a coordinated effort. we need action at every level of government. reimagining what is keeping people safe looks like. it goes to making sure that there is funding on the front end to prevent violence from happening in the first place like violence interrupters, but also having support for community organizations, having support for job training progra, you know, whatever the case may be, to create communities, to create societies where people have an opportunity to thrive, where less or fewer police are actual

wisconsin supreme court. changing the structure of the wisconsin supreme court is not nearly as hard. the election in 2023 will be determining whether or not wisconsin a conservative or progressive majority in the supreme court. that is gonna go a long way in determining the policies of that state. so, we are all focused on 2022 right now. for obvious reasons. but in wisconsin it's not 2022, it's also 2023 that's gonna shape the politics of 2024. >> yeah, wisconsin is a real, like, flashing red light about the nature of american democracy. all right, thank you very much. >> thank you so much, chris. >> still ahead, another woman accuses georgia republican senate candidate herschel walker of pushing her to get an abortion. will republicans continue to defend walker with less than two weeks until election day? you probably know the answer, but that is next. ♪ can you hear me calling ♪ ♪ out your name? ♪ ♪ you know that i've falling ♪ ♪ and i don't know what to say ♪ ♪ oh, i ♪ dude ♪ i want

here in wisconsin, already, the map is so gerrymandered. they only have to win 44% of the vote to get a majority of the assembly. now, think about that. think about any other thing you do in life where 44% are on one side, 56% on the other, and the 44 wins. it doesn't make sense. that is correct. and if they pick up a few more seats in both chambers, they'll be able to force through extreme unpopular laws, on everything from guns, to education, to abortion. and there won't be anything democrats can do about it. but right now, the only person standing in their way is tony evers. [applause] and let me say this -- i know tony is low-key, he's got a little bit more of a clark man vibe then a superman vibe. but don't let the glasses fool you, because tony is tough. he is single-handedly keeping republicans from driving the car off the road. he might be democracies best hope in wisconsin. that is one more reason he deserves your fellow! your vote! [applause] -- so, i get that democracy, right now, today, democracy might not seem like a top priori

why is that not happening wisconsin? >> i think two michaels has started a different kind of needle, trying to present himself as a kind of every man job creator as well. he's presenting himself as a little less extreme though, as you mention, he's talked about decertifying and so. on wisconsin is very evenly divided. i think one thing that's important to remember is a lot of this goes back to scott walker's attack on labor unions in the labor movements, it's lost above 50% of his union mention -- that is altered that's maybe underappreciated. you know, that election, the governor's race in wisconsin is probably the most crucial election in the country. once it was one of only three stakes that was the deciding state of 2015, 2020. if tony loses, i think there's no guarantee that the electors will be given to whoever is the winner of the popular vote. >> this is why this conversation is so important. thank you for both of you for joining us this morning. we really appreciate it. -- we have some interesting new poll numbe

what will be your priority in the senate to help wisconsin families? >> we have to understand what caused the 40 year high inflation rates. out of control deficit spending. i voted against most of it. unfortunately president biden come when he came into office put forth another relief project -- package when we had money left over from the previous relief package. i was worried about it in 2021, we need to stop deficit spending, stop spending our debt. a dollar you make under the biden ministrations is now worth .83%, is crushing -- $.83. it is hurting seniors on fixed income. >> you have to have the courage to vote no and i voted no on deficit spending. lieutenant governor barnes supports the massive deficit spending including the green deal energy boondoggles we cannot afford to pay for. >> would you do anything to drive down the costs? ron: again you have to grow the economy, but stop the deficit spending, become energy dependent, stop the war on fossil fuels. >> you can rebut, he did bring up your name. mandela: i will wait for my response. >> same

all the people of wisconsin know that. he has failed the people of wisconsin from covid to kenosha. he stood by while kenosha burned. he has been a weak leader, a bad work ethic. people are ready for a change. a proven executive experience. >> bill: some issues here. i know your piece popped out there. back to the polling numbers though. our viewers, his job performance is still pretty good. right below 50%. in another one based on support, he seems to be -- he seems to have more enthusiasm generally speaking in our polling that you have at the moment here. on the issues, i know crime is important to independent voters in wisconsin. i know just recently the parole commissioner john tait resigned. what was that all about? how does crime play in wisconsin when you are thinking about cities like milwaukee? >> well, crime is very important issue in wisconsin as it is all over america. and tony evers shockingly made a campaign pledge four years ago to cut in half the prison population here in wisconsin. he is well on his way to doing it. he has released 1,000 at the end of last year, 202

florida and wisconsin feature incumbents. on the democratic site, catherine cortez-masto is arguably the most vulnerable and they're trying to pick off raphael warnock but they have struggled a bit as allegations of domestic abuse and now abortion seem to saddle republican herschel walker. georgia, by the way, has the highest price tag in the country of any midterm race. more than $140 million has been spent on ads since the primary. by the way, that $140 million is more than what both bush and gore spent in the year 2000, if you want to see how much funding has grown exponentially. so the number here will get even bigger, especially if this georgia race goes into another overtime. this runoff would be december 6th. walker again denied that i paid for the mother for one of his children to have an abortion. >> as i say, that's a like. that was a like and i'm not backing down and we have senator warnock. we have people that would do anything and say anything for this seat, but i'm not going to back down. this seat is too import

and it's like wisconsin has seen plenty of political change. joe biden won in 2020, but donald trump prevailed 4 years earlier. for some that back and forth. it's an opportunity to tip the balance cancer senate if the african american outreach director for the wisconsin republican. they opened this black community center 3 years ago. kids or family hills from haiti, and liens democrat, but he realized at a young age that his views on abortion and faith made him a republican go up to the board towards county. why many people come in here and you know, the question will be, will have, who you voted for? who the vote for? or why are you with democrats and the response? probably 99 percent of the time is well, that's all i know. and nothing is going to change that in terms of you will have at least looking to the other side of the republican side to know what is the difference. kendra's goal is to get 16 percent of the black vote in milwaukee in november's mid term compared to 12 percent last time around. at least one voter seems ready to convert.

it seems fitting for wisconsin. you have a perfect tie, the polling average, one of several midwest states here with governors races we are keeping a close eye on nationally. we are also watching gretchen whitmer, democratic incumbent, has a lead over her republican challenger, to dixon. that is within ten points at this point. we are just a tick shy of 50 points, and in michigan, last night, whitmer and dixon met in a debate that debate was focused on abortion, gun violence, states handling of covid-19. take a look at that. ing of covid-19 take a look at that. >> when roe fell, mrs. dickson celebrated that. she said it didn't go far enough. she said she wanted to make abortion a felony, no exceptions for rape, incest, or health, of the woman. >> my position on abortion is clear. i am pro life, with exceptions for life of the mother. you should understand her position. it's extremely radical. it's abortion up to the moment of birth. >> to their dixon posted on her social media a picture of her shooting a gun. with t

wisconsin specifically. i had a chance to visit farmers who had to deal with the impact of devastation from these one hundred year storms that are happening more regularly. flooding events -- historic flooding events wiping out infrastructure and impacting cities with urban heat. the senator couple questions ago said co2 is not harmful. he has gone as far to call climate change bs. these are people's lives we're talking about this is our future. what we need to do is reduce carbon emissions, we also need to do is towards clean energy and make sure wisconsin is in the driver's seat. 80% of the solar panels are built in china. can build them in wisconsin and to charting a path to clean energy. we can make sure our family farmers have the support they need for generative agriculture. host: time is up. senator. senator johnson: the climate always change and will change. i do not deny climate change. the question is can you do anything about it? when china and india will be burning fossil fuels. america will have

what will be your priority in the senate to help wisconsin families? >> we have to understand what caused the 40 year high inflation rates. out of control deficit spending. i voted against most of it. unfortunately president biden come when he came into office put forth another relief project -- package when we had money left over from the previous relief package. i was worried about it in 2021, we need to stop deficit spending, stop spending our debt. a dollar you make under the biden ministrations is now worth .83%, is crushing -- $.83. it is hurting seniors on fixed income. >> you have to have the courage to vote no and i voted no on deficit spending. lieutenant governor barnes supports the massive deficit spending including the green deal energy boondoggles we cannot afford to pay for. >> would you do anything to drive down the costs? ron: again you have to grow the economy, but stop the deficit spending, become energy dependent, stop the war on fossil fuels. >> you can rebut, he did bring up your name. mandela: i will wait for my response. >> same

and it's like wisconsin has seen plenty of political change. joe biden, one in 2020, but donald trump prevailed 4 years earlier. for some that back and forth, it's an opportunity to tip the balance cancer senate if the african american outreach director for the wisconsin republican. they opened this black community center 3 years ago. kids or family hills from haiti, and liens democrats. but he realized at a young age that his views on abortion and faith made him a republican, goes up to the board towards county. why many people come in here and you know, the question will be, will have, who you voted for? who the vote for? or why are you what democrats and the response probably 99 percent of the time is. well, that's all i know and nothing is going to change that in terms of, you know, have at least looking to the other side of the republican side to know what is the difference. tender goal is to get 16 percent of the black vote in milwaukee in november's mid term compared to 12 percent last time around. at least one voter seems ready to conve

s. midterm elections in the state of wisconsin. i'm like, i mean the theme but, and i spoke with every journey is full of surprises. we've gone all out to give you some tips with i'm in your northern most count to play with for a time long, but still very much alive. d. w, travel, you'll guy to the special with recognizes where exactly. it was fun. i learned a lot. our culture history, all their g w. travel extremely worth a visit. ah ah, ah. its election season in the us, wisconsin is the swing states could come down to the wire in the mid term. the city of milwaukee is a democratic bastion and black voters are an important pillar of support. but democrats can't take the black vote for granted this year because republicans are making inroads and voter turnout is attacking as issues like inequality, inflation, and public safety, fuel frustration from time to be hard to say. and i know i'm trying to for these people as much as we push the vote republican and put something new and give us a chance. the me it's a busy morning and fran

i got to find some kind of tight business in, in wisconsin has seen plenty of political change. joe biden won in 2020, but donald trump prevailed 4 years earlier for some that back and forth if an opportunity to tip the balance cancer senate if the african american outreach director for the wisconsin republican, they opened this black community center 3 years ago. kids or family hills from haiti, and liens democrat, but he realized at a young age that his views on abortion and faith made him a republican go up to the north towards can only one. many people come in here and you know, the question will be, will have who you voted for? who do you vote for or why are you a democrat? and the response probably 99 percent of the time is well, that's all i know. and nothing is going to change that in terms of, you know, have at least looking to the other side of the republican side to know what is the difference. tender goal is to get 16 percent of the black vote in milwaukee in november's mid term compared to 12 percent last time around. at least one voter seems ready to convert a want

in wisconsin the reverse is true. 20% in wisconsin say they're strategic voters. they're actually favoring mandela barns against ron johnson. you have two different stories how the voters are playing it. i would note the character, the integrity, that issue, it's down on the list here. it does not -- you know, about half as many say that that matters to their vote as the major factor as the candidate policy positions. >> what i thought was so interesting about this strategic voters question especially in pennsylvania is how much it broke for oz because fetterman for months in his campaign had kind of been campaigning on that strategic vote and he said he would bust the filler buster on union rights and if what really matters to you is who controls the senate, it's actually republicans that have the favor -- who are favored in that part and that's the calculations that particularly a lot of voters in georgia are making especially with the personal shortcomings of the republican candidate there but many voters are saying i want a republican representing me in the se

how is that playing out there in wisconsin? judy: well, johnson and the outside groups who are supporting him are zeroing in in particul on what mandela barnes said, and his social media postings in the aftermath of the murder of george floyd in 2020, focusing on what he said about defunding, or reducing funding for the police, and for abolishing i.c.e., which, of course, is a federal agency charged with policing the border. barnes has pushed back. he has tried to put what he said in context, and he's trying to turn the attention back to ron johnson and talking about his actions in support of the insurrectionists on january 6. but barnes has also had to deal with relentless advertising by republicans framing him as dangerous, someone who would take the state in a direction where voters wouldn't be safe. i caught up with mandela barnes yesterday in milwaukee and asked him about it, and here's part of what he said. mandela: ron johnson is always using fear tactics because he can't run on his own record. from day one we set out to

in wisconsin, there were several suits that were filed. again, we defended the results of the election and ultimately, we won every one of those cases. but one of them was 4 to 3 in our state supreme court. you know, i was there and we were advocating that we were making the point that our elections were free and fair, that the results reflect the rule of the voters. but you have if you have someone there who's an election denier or who just falsely claims that laws were violated, or that there was widespread fraud, that could throw our system into chaos. we had this postelection investigation by michael hageman that has not finally ended. but ag's have been critical in protecting our democracy. >> now, let's move to another important issue now. on tuesday, you released, you released on tuesday, your whole basis of dealing with these kinds of issues that have plagued a lot of what has been decided upon in this race, in the midterms. in terms of voting and in terms of things of that nature. you released her 2023 budget through 2025. they ar

we asked him about accusations of racism and the republican party and in wisconsin itself. well, the tv ads attacking black senate candidates medulla barnes through the cities christmas parade. mandela barnes wants to in cash bel, completely the dangerous democrat, but that is not his phone easily with her. but once again, i'm cared about my folks that are out there that need help with alright. can i put groceries on my table for my family? can i have gas to get home from work or can i even get to work? those are the issues that i, i, quite frankly, only really care about is in terms of the crime. it's a crime issue. the economy and education volunteers have gathered at the community center to head out into the neighborhood and hand out flyers for republican senator ron johnson. we asked desirae what convinced her to work for the johnson campaign. she's not a passionate republican yet, but she says her generation is curious to know what else is out there. we want to know more. i really want to know why. we want to know why you're doing, why you're doing that, you do this in

that's not what people in wisconsin want. they want their person protected, families protected and property protected. i'm going to back the blue and get rid of the cash and release d.a.s. >> neil: governor youngkin, one thing you both have in common as well, you were supported by donald trump. you didn't mention it very much. governor youngkin, you handled that gingerly. it was to your benefit. you've been the same here, mr. michels. did you advise him to accept the former president's support but you don't have to keep pounding it. >> well, let me just back up. in a state like virginia and in wisconsin where you've got to bring lots of people together in order to win. one of the things we demonstrated we could bring together forever trumpers and never trumpers and independents and libertarians and democrats, this is not about republicans versus democrats. this is and shared values to put parents back at the table, not just at the table but at the head of the table in their kids lives and to back the blue and stop the crazine

joining me now is wisconsin attorney general josh kaul. attorney general, thank you for your time this evening. i know in the midst of a campaign and it's very busy. your reaction to a need to ask you to the growing number of mostly republican election related blood lawsuits, and have you seen legal challenges in your own state? >> in wisconsin, we're in a state of constant litigation over our elections. we have seen that in this cycle. there was a lawsuit brought that ultimately led to ballot drop boxes not being permissible. there's been litigation over what needs to be included for the witness information an absentee ballots, to be counted. what's fundamental, is there's a clear set of rules going into the election, we have that now. because what we saw with trump in 2020 was not just challenges to rules. but challenges after the. fact people relied on there -- and trump still tries to challenge those ballots. that is my concern right now. i feel good -- for those kinds of challenges. when we dig on that for a moment, the national commi

and that is could be informing what is tboaing on going on in wisconsin. dana: voters are concerned about these issues here. we have seen this. this is consistent inflation and high prices 89% for good reason, really touch out there for a lot of families, higher crime rates 79%, and political division, 74 then voter fraud 55%, coronavirus down at at 44%. you are looking at either a race like wisconsin or in some of the swing districts where republicans had not been playing before they are about to, they, end pand expanding. >> they are, in the house, and you look at wisconsin we talk about crime so far. and that is the issue, i think that flipped this race from this search points down from -- 7 points down from ron johnson to where he is up. he has been hitting barnes hard on the issues. iif republicans win on election night it willing won because of crime. dana: in north carolina. a tight race between bud and beasley and then the shooting in r in ultray -- in raleigh, that focusing the minds. minds. >> it does it is a tight race. i think bud has an van ta

we'll ask uttered wisconsin's democratic party. but first, richard louis with the other big stories we're tracking this hour at msnbc. richard? >> alicia, good evening. the biden administration confirming the msnbc news that senior officials have met face to face with leaders of the taliban in qatar. so first meeting says the u.s. killed top al-qaeda leader eamonn al zawahiri. he was hiding out in afghanistan when the troops took him out in july, the u.s. saw as a violation of their commitment to harvard terrace. a texas teenager has been -- as he sat eating a hamburger and mcdonald's parking lot. the san antonio officer was nearby investigating an unrelated matter, when he shot the 17 year old. it's unclear why he opened fire in the investigation is investigating. thankfully he survived in the teen remains hospitalized. tampa bay buccaneers and the falcons joined forces ahead of tonight's game to help storm victims. teams and their families seen building care packages for the red cross. those kits were then delivered to a local sh

background of the state of wisconsin. based on the pundit class, you would assume republicans were leaving the state and going to be a total landslide when it comes to democrats. tony evers is in a dead heat against michaels 47%. big race is senate race. ron johnson took four-point percentage lead against barnes. number one issue is not only inflation, but crime and barnes was a golden child for the democratic party and they have forced folks out in the primary. you are hearing his radical path when it comes to defund police and releasing criminals out of the jail. and now ron johnson has taken a four-point lead. we'll talk to folks "what you don't know" matters most, i guarantee it is inflation and crime. >> brian: we'll check back again. he wants to defund ice and po police, not good to run on. >> ainsley: ask guys how they feel about it and the boris johnson agents, they feel abandoned. >> steve: we'll tell you next how it is impacting your kids in american schools and you'll be shocked and last night over on the now c

wisconsin's lieutenant governor mandela barnes joins me now. a monday, you are on a bus or focusing on workers and families. it seems to me as an observer, this is a critical group that you and senator johnson are both vying for. republicans out what they would do if elected, including slashing social security, slashing medicare, how much of your pitch is about what democrats will do, and how much of it is about the plans republicans like kevin mccarthy are actively touting? >> i will say, i am very much looking forward -- i want to thank you so much for having me and talk about it. it's all of the above, honestly. we're holding ron johnson accountable for his failures, for leaving working people of wisconsin and behind. it is irresponsible for people like ron johnson to cut social security and medicare. he already voted to repeal the affordable care act before. he would do it again. ron johnson leaves working people in every corner of the state behind. also holding him accountable for his dangerous position on abortion. he sponsored the nation

we stopped providing abortions in wisconsin altogether. as we have already discussed we , have a law in wisconsin from 1849, which is one year older than the state and 70 years before women are the right to vote in this country. this law makes it a felony for me to provide abortion care to my patients. there are no exceptions for rape and no exceptions for incest. the only exception is for the life of the mother. but pregnant people don't have a warning light that comes on when they've crossed that threshold. we have to use our clinical judgment developed through over a decade of formal education, experience, and commitment to make those kinds of sensitive individualized decisions. so in places like sheboygan county, where the district attorney has specifically said that he will prosecute physicians, can i count on him to trust my clinical judgment? looking back, would we agree that i met the criteria that my patient was sick enough? the effects are chilling. people in our state are being denied medication for miscarriage management. they