1 00:00:04,476 --> 00:00:09,544 Internet about the Internet and socio-political conflicts 2 00:00:09,552 --> 00:00:13,484 that has been talked about a lot in recent months but that 3 00:00:13,484 --> 00:00:17,918 It's still, ehh, a fairly current topic, right? And 4 00:00:17,918 --> 00:00:21,751 not only because of the events that are happening today 5 00:00:21,751 --> 00:00:25,518 but because it has been many years since there have been 6 00:00:25,518 --> 00:00:31,618 risks against the internet of limiting it of dividing it 7 00:00:31,618 --> 00:00:37,218 segment it With some kind of socio-political interest I want 8 00:00:37,218 --> 00:00:41,050 to introduce those who are going to accompany us today in 9 00:00:41,050 --> 00:00:45,084 principle we give first to the doctor we are very grateful for 10 00:00:45,084 --> 00:00:47,751 the presence of doctor Cynthia Solís she is managing partner 11 00:00:47,751 --> 00:00:53,918 of the firm Lex Inf IT Little I imagine that it is in 12 00:00:53,918 --> 00:00:56,951 English I am coordinator of the Data Protection Commission, 13 00:00:56,951 --> 00:01:00,818 Transparency of the Mexican Bar Association. Member of 14 00:01:00,818 --> 00:01:07,051 the sixth consul. Sixth council of the Federal Institute 15 00:01:09,251 --> 00:01:11,918 Solís doctor Cynthia Solís at this hour. 16 00:01:11,918 --> 00:01:15,751 Thank you very much for the invitation. Also 17 00:01:17,418 --> 00:01:20,450 Martinez 18 00:01:20,918 --> 00:01:28,484 Cervantes. the board of directors of the global Internet ah is ah a 19 00:01:28,484 --> 00:01:35,018 member of the of the of the No? From the board of directors eh it is also 20 00:01:35,018 --> 00:01:38,451 the Mexico chapter of the Inter Society who is president of 21 00:01:38,451 --> 00:01:40,617 the sixth Consultative Council of the Federal Institute of 22 00:01:40,617 --> 00:01:44,151 Telecommunications in Mexico and academic of the engineering 23 00:01:44,151 --> 00:01:48,151 department of the Universidad Iberoamericana. very many 24 00:01:48,151 --> 00:01:52,584 Thanks to Luis Miguel for being with us, what he has done. 25 00:01:52,584 --> 00:01:56,551 Thank you very much Jeffrey and everyone for being here. 26 00:01:56,551 --> 00:02:02,018 Greetings. Perfect. Well this to start I am going to be the 27 00:02:02,018 --> 00:02:04,018 moderator my name is Jeffry Hernández I am president of the 28 00:02:04,018 --> 00:02:07,451 current chapter 29 00:02:11,017 --> 00:02:16,151 the issue of the division of the internet or the risks that the 30 00:02:16,151 --> 00:02:19,484 internet offers have been analyzed and have come to the fore 31 00:02:19,484 --> 00:02:25,484 light lately in particular because Ukraine 32 00:02:25,484 --> 00:02:30,985 asked to secede Russia from the global internet ah 33 00:02:30,985 --> 00:02:34,985 Well, this is not the first time that it happens, it is perhaps the most 34 00:02:34,985 --> 00:02:41,184 notorious time, they have happened on other occasions, let's say if not 35 00:02:41,184 --> 00:02:47,850 lockdowns of that nature of cutting off a country entirely 36 00:02:47,850 --> 00:02:52,218 without over-regulation or over-limiting as in the case 37 00:02:52,218 --> 00:02:56,284 of China and several other cases even within Russia 38 00:02:56,284 --> 00:03:01,351 itself that say that I read somewhere that Russia even 39 00:03:01,351 --> 00:03:05,585 he wants he wants to have his own his own internet if eh not only 40 00:03:05,585 --> 00:03:09,084 if I wish them from other countries in Europe they will cut or 41 00:03:09,084 --> 00:03:12,484 block Russia but Russia itself 42 00:03:12,484 --> 00:03:15,618 would even like to be isolated 43 00:03:18,352 --> 00:03:22,584 and this responds to many interests that citizens 44 00:03:22,584 --> 00:03:28,185 do not have access to information or a series of 45 00:03:28,185 --> 00:03:33,084 resources that are outside of the country 46 00:03:33,084 --> 00:03:37,884 itself and that are found globally. So the theme 47 00:03:37,884 --> 00:03:43,218 for a lot and well I don't know who would like to start with the voice 48 00:03:43,218 --> 00:03:46,418 and Cynthia or Luis Miguel was also going to participate this Eri 49 00:03:46,418 --> 00:03:52,318 Huesca but somewhere he got lost on the highway there in 50 00:03:52,318 --> 00:03:57,318 the California peninsula and he couldn't be with us anymore. 51 00:03:57,318 --> 00:03:59,151 Well who you, who, who likes. You go Cynthia. . . 52 00:03:59,151 --> 00:04:01,850 Okay, well, just behind the scenes, first of all thank 53 00:04:01,850 --> 00:04:04,218 you very much for the invitation, the truth is that 54 00:04:04,218 --> 00:04:09,585 It is always a pleasure to collaborate with you, with 55 00:04:09,585 --> 00:04:14,452 Adison but in addition to topics that as I was saying right now 56 00:04:14,452 --> 00:04:19,218 Jeffrey, well, they are not new, that is something very important, 57 00:04:19,218 --> 00:04:21,818 they are not new, they already have a lot, that is, they have been 58 00:04:21,818 --> 00:04:23,985 different occasions, but right now I think that with the subject 59 00:04:23,985 --> 00:04:29,018 so ehh mmm that is being lived between Russia and Ukraine 60 00:04:29,018 --> 00:04:35,484 well, yes, that is, the truth is that a lot has been taken on 61 00:04:35,484 --> 00:04:42,050 one side and the other and I think that's why it becomes like 62 00:04:42,050 --> 00:04:48,684 much more eh relevant. So let's see what happens 63 00:04:48,684 --> 00:04:54,485 with this issue of geopolitical conflicts. ehh the 64 00:04:54,485 --> 00:04:56,551 geopolitics is not really new, we are talking that it is already 65 00:04:56,551 --> 00:05:00,118 over a hundred years old but it is important to understand how 66 00:05:00,118 --> 00:05:03,484 chess pieces move. How ehh it's interesting 67 00:05:03,484 --> 00:05:05,351 because if we don't get to see it at once 68 00:05:05,351 --> 00:05:07,118 In a very objective way, it is not so different from the 69 00:05:07,118 --> 00:05:08,784 conflicts that eventually occur, right? In situations a little 70 00:05:08,784 --> 00:05:10,484 more of the day to day and what is what happens? Well, 71 00:05:10,484 --> 00:05:12,284 precisely part of what we are going to see today is how 72 00:05:12,284 --> 00:05:14,284 been configuring interests and since certain countries have become I 73 00:05:14,284 --> 00:05:17,318 would not like to call them no I would not like to use the word ally for 74 00:05:17,318 --> 00:05:19,451 the implications that it has but in one way or another they have 75 00:05:19,451 --> 00:05:23,850 generated empathy have created empathy with Ukraine and others who 76 00:05:23,850 --> 00:05:27,850 have created empathy on the Russian side. and just as 77 00:05:27,850 --> 00:05:30,618 they commented on one of these manifestations of empathy 78 00:05:30,618 --> 00:05:34,985 I was focused on how I am taking away resources from Russia and I do 79 00:05:34,985 --> 00:05:37,751 not want to prejudge, I am not saying that it is right or wrong, but 80 00:05:37,751 --> 00:05:40,151 precisely within all these resources that have 81 00:05:40,151 --> 00:05:45,484 been reduced as means of payment as just sale 82 00:05:45,484 --> 00:05:49,618 of some objects in particular because there is also 83 00:05:49,618 --> 00:05:53,451 this manifestation of some companies, especially 84 00:05:53,451 --> 00:05:59,084 I think it's a secret that the United States is 85 00:05:59,084 --> 00:06:03,118 obviously more on the side of Ukraine, right? ehh 86 00:06:03,118 --> 00:06:06,918 and other OTA members. But this is precisely 87 00:06:06,918 --> 00:06:11,151 where this question of what happens to these 88 00:06:11,151 --> 00:06:13,751 positioning by very important companies that I 89 00:06:13,751 --> 00:06:17,017 am not saying are the most important but I am very 90 00:06:17,017 --> 00:06:19,518 important at the international level ehh as a goal, 91 00:06:19,518 --> 00:06:23,884 like Google, like Apple that have said in some way that 92 00:06:23,884 --> 00:06:26,985 they agree with or that in some way they 93 00:06:26,985 --> 00:06:31,151 are going to close it, right? From the east 94 00:06:36,784 --> 00:06:43,850 Well, access to the Russian public to this type of services. And 95 00:06:43,850 --> 00:06:48,284 part of what we are going to discuss right now that is not going to 96 00:06:48,284 --> 00:06:52,784 be discuss. We are going to exchange opinions because we 97 00:06:52,784 --> 00:06:59,618 had already said that this is very cool, very relaxed. Well 98 00:06:59,618 --> 00:07:04,051 it has to do with that. That is, how valid legally speaking? 99 00:07:04,051 --> 00:07:08,951 Because many of the things that we are going to talk about 100 00:07:08,951 --> 00:07:12,584 probably and I don't know, we'll see if Luis agrees with 101 00:07:12,584 --> 00:07:19,218 me or not. But that is not so relevant, what is relevant is 102 00:07:19,218 --> 00:07:24,418 the richness of this dissertation. It is that there are things 103 00:07:24,418 --> 00:07:25,918 that are politically incorrect or that would violate the principles 104 00:07:25,918 --> 00:07:27,884 basics of the internet even from the vision of human rights 105 00:07:27,884 --> 00:07:29,618 but that they are legal, that is, that legally they are 106 00:07:29,618 --> 00:07:31,218 viable even when they are politically incorrect or 107 00:07:31,218 --> 00:07:32,818 when it could even be understood that they violate 108 00:07:32,818 --> 00:07:34,684 or limitations on the exercise of certain human rights. No, 109 00:07:34,684 --> 00:07:36,151 well, the panorama you put this sounds very good to me, I think 110 00:07:36,151 --> 00:07:39,050 that the approach starting from the Russia conflict 111 00:07:39,050 --> 00:07:43,251 Ukraine places us right now but before the transmission 112 00:07:43,251 --> 00:07:48,617 began, well, we were remembering since the birth of the 113 00:07:48,617 --> 00:07:54,684 the internet has been you can't even call it the bone of 114 00:07:54,684 --> 00:08:00,918 contention it's just the obscure object of desire yeah huh 115 00:08:00,918 --> 00:08:05,850 ah very well it is the ring of the lord of the rings the the 116 00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:10,418 ring of the lord of the rings Why? good because it entails 117 00:08:10,418 --> 00:08:14,151 one of the great freedoms of the internet which is the 118 00:08:14,151 --> 00:08:17,251 freedom of expression that separates because it is a right 119 00:08:17,251 --> 00:08:22,484 universal human right? Now I'm worried I'm not so worried 120 00:08:22,484 --> 00:08:27,684 about the consequences of the Russia-Ukraine conflict because 121 00:08:27,684 --> 00:08:31,985 Well, right now everything is blah blah if the Western 122 00:08:31,985 --> 00:08:36,918 computer assets in Russia are too many, yes? And the 123 00:08:36,918 --> 00:08:41,850 impossibility of cutting all the cables to disconnect the internet 124 00:08:41,850 --> 00:08:46,052 from the ehh to Russia from the internet because practically 125 00:08:46,052 --> 00:08:48,418 Impossible, what is worrying is the ideology 126 00:08:48,418 --> 00:08:54,484 behind both sides, yes? Why? because all conflict 127 00:08:54,484 --> 00:08:58,818 geopolitical implies ideology. So, since there is an ideology 128 00:08:58,818 --> 00:09:04,284 involved, then this topic ceases to be the internet and more 129 00:09:04,284 --> 00:09:07,751 well what is the position of each person and what is behind 130 00:09:07,751 --> 00:09:11,484 that position. But let's go a little further back because what 131 00:09:11,484 --> 00:09:15,518 What worries me is not those who want to disconnect others but 132 00:09:15,518 --> 00:09:22,951 those who disconnect themselves, right? That is Chinese type that 133 00:09:22,951 --> 00:09:26,818 you cross the Chinese border and then you are on another internet 134 00:09:26,818 --> 00:09:31,952 Nope? You don't know if the Google you're taking in Shane in 135 00:09:31,952 --> 00:09:36,418 front of Hong Kong is really Google or not Google, right? And yes 136 00:09:36,418 --> 00:09:40,418 you want to enter your Facebook beyond that line of sight Hong 137 00:09:40,418 --> 00:09:45,050 Kong well it's over because that doesn't exist there that's it 138 00:09:45,050 --> 00:09:48,318 What really worries me is that it's no longer a uh, 139 00:09:48,318 --> 00:09:53,850 an action, it's become an exercise in censorship and 140 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:58,684 espionage and everything we don't like to say. So I 141 00:09:58,684 --> 00:10:05,518 think that what Jeffrey experienced when he created the 142 00:10:05,518 --> 00:10:09,552 chapter of Mexico because it is very different from the internet 143 00:10:09,552 --> 00:10:14,684 that many years later ceased to be that internet of the engineers of 144 00:10:14,684 --> 00:10:19,050 people with nerds like one and it began to become an 145 00:10:19,050 --> 00:10:24,584 internet of lawyers like you who began to see others 146 00:10:24,584 --> 00:10:29,384 Well, they always find the but, right? To everyone 147 00:10:29,384 --> 00:10:36,151 exactly then I think that's where he really is born 148 00:10:36,151 --> 00:10:40,984 geopolitical conflict and of course that as you say the 149 00:10:40,984 --> 00:10:47,284 ring of the lord of the rings that has its elves this 150 00:10:47,284 --> 00:10:53,084 taking care of the ring and its gargantuas eh trying 151 00:10:53,084 --> 00:10:58,484 to steal it to have that hegemony but it is no longer a 152 00:10:58,484 --> 00:11:03,918 military or military hegemony di is a hegemony that starts from the 153 00:11:03,918 --> 00:11:10,918 information and from that against counter-propaganda and limitation 154 00:11:10,918 --> 00:11:16,184 of freedom of expression. 155 00:11:19,752 --> 00:11:28,617 As you see? Well, but you said who, right? That this 156 00:11:28,617 --> 00:11:31,918 We can also say when Internet accesses begin 157 00:11:31,918 --> 00:11:37,251 to be limited in the interest of greater security by 158 00:11:37,251 --> 00:11:40,618 example this let's 159 00:11:47,418 --> 00:11:50,851 the Mask controls. 160 00:11:53,017 --> 00:11:58,718 So that's ah well, although a little on the sociopolitical 161 00:11:58,718 --> 00:12:03,751 side, but it's also a risk when this happens 162 00:12:03,751 --> 00:12:07,918 more, there is one about regulation or else these limits or these 163 00:12:07,918 --> 00:12:14,084 controls oh we have to see if they are good or they are not very 164 00:12:14,084 --> 00:12:18,918 good but they are beginning to be inconvenient I don't know 165 00:12:18,918 --> 00:12:23,884 what you think about it well let's see what happens it's just 166 00:12:23,884 --> 00:12:25,918 I think that one of the big mistakes that the government 167 00:12:25,918 --> 00:12:28,551 has made right now Luis Miguel said that the lawyers just 168 00:12:28,551 --> 00:12:31,751 we get to see what the problem is. Actually that is a 169 00:12:31,751 --> 00:12:35,084 vision of the lawyers, that is, let's say that the other 170 00:12:35,084 --> 00:12:39,184 lawyers or rather the one from I think I'm the type of lawyer that 171 00:12:39,184 --> 00:12:42,184 what I'm saying is to see if it's hopefully you won't move him 172 00:12:42,184 --> 00:12:45,952 but remember that even the UN itself when it declares, 173 00:12:45,952 --> 00:12:49,051 well, that the issue of internet access is a mechanism to 174 00:12:49,051 --> 00:12:54,018 human exercise and as Catholics would say, as above, so 175 00:12:54,018 --> 00:12:59,417 below, that is, literal as it is on a day-to-day basis 176 00:12:59,417 --> 00:13:02,484 in the same way you have to find that human rights and that in 177 00:13:02,484 --> 00:13:06,818 general that that it is not, that is, that it is not understood 178 00:13:06,818 --> 00:13:12,684 The internet is a no man's land, right? That in the 179 00:13:12,684 --> 00:13:14,552 end technically speaking I could do it but in the end 180 00:13:14,552 --> 00:13:18,684 Legally speaking, it is not like that, so I think that 181 00:13:18,684 --> 00:13:23,884 understanding this because sometimes I also have conflicts with 182 00:13:23,884 --> 00:13:27,484 my colleagues, right now, Jeffrey, you were commenting on the issue of 183 00:13:27,484 --> 00:13:30,351 overregulation, that is, I think that in the end we have to understand 184 00:13:30,351 --> 00:13:33,050 how the internet works because we have had many cases, especially 185 00:13:33,050 --> 00:13:36,418 in Mexico. In Mexico the truth is that six years after after 186 00:13:36,418 --> 00:13:39,984 six-year period, that is, literally, it already seems like a quota. 187 00:13:39,984 --> 00:13:43,484 Ehh, legislative proposals suddenly come out that are a real mess. 188 00:13:43,484 --> 00:13:47,218 They also do not understand how the Internet works. 189 00:13:47,218 --> 00:13:48,818 For example, recently the proposal that she had for 190 00:13:48,818 --> 00:13:56,151 there is the senator huh Manuel? Montreal. Montreal, exactly. 191 00:13:56,151 --> 00:13:59,552 I mean, let's see, you can't champion yourself trying to 192 00:13:59,552 --> 00:14:01,684 defend freedom of expression and then say oh, I don't know 193 00:14:01,684 --> 00:14:04,250 worry, I am going to defend freedom of expression, how am I 194 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:08,918 going to do it? Ah well, regulating all social networks. Nope, 195 00:14:08,918 --> 00:14:13,384 Wait, it doesn't work like that because Dr. Martínez 196 00:14:13,384 --> 00:14:15,218 commented a moment ago, that is, what is China doing? 197 00:14:15,218 --> 00:14:18,718 Well China says these are my marbles and from here to here 198 00:14:18,718 --> 00:14:20,984 or from the border to there you can use WhatsApp or from here 199 00:14:20,984 --> 00:14:24,751 for here only Winchat right? Ehh, what happens at the end 200 00:14:24,751 --> 00:14:30,018 of the day when you have one about an overregulation scheme? 201 00:14:30,018 --> 00:14:34,850 the only thing you are doing is that it is de facto, that is, even though 202 00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:39,051 you are not doing it, eh, that is, it is not that you are prohibiting 203 00:14:39,051 --> 00:14:41,850 legally the entrance to the national market or national 204 00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:45,985 users but if the companies say for me it is very 205 00:14:45,985 --> 00:14:49,552 It is difficult to have a presence or for these services to be provided in that 206 00:14:49,552 --> 00:14:54,151 country. What you do is either you leave the country, that is, you leave more 207 00:14:54,151 --> 00:14:57,418 of the country and that is why I put it in quotes because in 208 00:14:57,418 --> 00:15:02,818 the end we all know that even if your IP is restricted for the 209 00:15:02,818 --> 00:15:04,951 use of certain services as you may use other technologies 210 00:15:04,951 --> 00:15:08,551 to log out and access that service. I do not know if 211 00:15:08,551 --> 00:15:11,751 I explain. The problem is that when you don't understand how 212 00:15:11,751 --> 00:15:18,351 the Internet works, you have this mania for overregulating. 213 00:15:18,351 --> 00:15:23,351 and and obviously from a way 214 00:15:23,751 --> 00:15:26,951 innocent to put it in the most innocuous way possible 215 00:15:26,951 --> 00:15:30,684 Nope? That is to say, how do I restrict this and so that this 216 00:15:30,684 --> 00:15:34,350 does not happen? Instead of and then the vision is regular 217 00:15:34,350 --> 00:15:37,417 technology and not regulating behavior and then you just 218 00:15:37,417 --> 00:15:42,250 lose focus because in the end we return to the same point 219 00:15:42,250 --> 00:15:45,552 what matters is not the technology but what you are doing 220 00:15:45,552 --> 00:15:49,384 the technology is neutral it is not that it is good or 221 00:15:49,384 --> 00:15:53,151 bad in the end as always what you have to look for is 222 00:15:53,151 --> 00:15:55,450 that the behaviors that are contrary to the rights that 223 00:15:55,450 --> 00:16:00,684 They go against society because these behaviors are 224 00:16:00,684 --> 00:16:06,418 punishable if necessary. I think you touch sorry Jeffrey 225 00:16:06,418 --> 00:16:12,518 but I think you are touching on something very 226 00:16:12,518 --> 00:16:17,518 interesting: overregulation is the consequence of a lack of 227 00:16:17,518 --> 00:16:22,951 understanding and knowledge Yes? As in I say I don't know 228 00:16:22,951 --> 00:16:26,018 if in other branches but in particular in what has to 229 00:16:26,018 --> 00:16:35,184 do with technology if yes there is if the legislator or the 230 00:16:35,184 --> 00:16:39,552 over-regulates it is because he really does not know what the limit of 231 00:16:39,552 --> 00:16:42,418 this. There is a very interesting case, right? The border of 232 00:16:42,418 --> 00:16:45,450 Mexico, United States. The border of Mexico, United States 233 00:16:45,450 --> 00:16:51,384 Physically united for us and technically it is not permeable. 234 00:16:51,384 --> 00:16:55,585 In other words, there is no free movement of people. 235 00:16:55,585 --> 00:16:59,784 what? Well, because there are certain migratory restrictions 236 00:16:59,784 --> 00:17:04,018 theoretically from one side to the other. but also data 237 00:17:04,018 --> 00:17:08,484 they are restricted, there are very few official data 238 00:17:08,484 --> 00:17:14,684 border crossings, yes? For example, from time to time ATIT 239 00:17:14,684 --> 00:17:20,918 built its global network the border crossing took place in 240 00:17:20,918 --> 00:17:25,985 McAllen, Texas and in Reynosa. And there is a well, a wall 241 00:17:25,985 --> 00:17:28,984 there where the Mexican fibers connect with the fibers of 242 00:17:28,984 --> 00:17:32,118 USA. What's going on? That you can reach 243 00:17:32,118 --> 00:17:36,818 with pliers or with a wire cutter you cut the 244 00:17:36,818 --> 00:17:41,918 fibers and the data flow between the two countries 245 00:17:41,918 --> 00:17:48,318 was cut but you cannot put a until here to a signal 246 00:17:48,318 --> 00:17:54,918 wireless. yes Then you have telephones that before 247 00:17:54,918 --> 00:17:57,850 when these Roaming agreements did not exist. You was in 248 00:17:57,850 --> 00:18:02,018 Tijuana and every 249 00:18:05,384 --> 00:18:08,418 Mexico 250 00:18:09,484 --> 00:18:13,484 I know that they charged you because, well, every time you connected 251 00:18:13,484 --> 00:18:21,050 to the United States as a taximeter and in the south in Guatemala the 252 00:18:21,050 --> 00:18:24,951 The situation is even more curious, there are no wired data paths, 253 00:18:24,951 --> 00:18:29,284 ehh, because there is a river in the middle, don't sit down. 254 00:18:29,284 --> 00:18:33,418 pachula there is a data step as such but if it takes you 255 00:18:33,418 --> 00:18:37,618 to nothing in Guatemala, right? But in the in the in the 256 00:18:37,618 --> 00:18:43,051 border on the Usumacinta River what you have 257 00:18:43,051 --> 00:18:47,152 is service of course, you do not have service of 258 00:18:47,152 --> 00:18:50,884 Telcel but it is the same owner, right? So, but 259 00:18:50,884 --> 00:18:56,518 curiously, having a clearing service in the south, eh well 260 00:18:56,518 --> 00:19:02,151 in Chiapas it costs you three dollars a minute, right? So 261 00:19:02,151 --> 00:19:07,018 this, well, there you begin to see how some of these problems 262 00:19:07,018 --> 00:19:13,884 and how the southern border, since it is totally 263 00:19:13,884 --> 00:19:16,518 unprotected, could come with a massive hack like traffic 264 00:19:16,518 --> 00:19:22,018 of weapons on the southern border and well, not even anyone notices. 265 00:19:22,018 --> 00:19:25,850 But in the end, the little connectivity in Chiapas, well, no, it 266 00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:31,017 doesn't give you a chance to do anything, right? And then we have to 267 00:19:31,017 --> 00:19:36,518 introduce the other invisible border, which is the satellite border. 268 00:19:36,518 --> 00:19:40,218 Yes, because now with low orbit satellites, if you manage to 269 00:19:40,218 --> 00:19:45,585 get into this cloud of satellites, then you will be able to 270 00:19:45,585 --> 00:19:49,952 hack anywhere, right? Or are you going to be able to and how do you 271 00:19:49,952 --> 00:19:55,484 disconnect them and then these authoritarian countries ehh between them 272 00:19:55,484 --> 00:20:01,618 some from Arabia and good from the Arab countries and Africa and 273 00:20:01,618 --> 00:20:08,551 China and if they want Russia well this ehh already eh they have to 274 00:20:08,551 --> 00:20:11,084 combat the satellite and then what do you do? You take away 275 00:20:11,084 --> 00:20:14,918 from people the possibility of receiving a satellite signal 276 00:20:14,918 --> 00:20:18,752 How did it happen in Mexico that it was almost a crime to have a 277 00:20:18,752 --> 00:20:24,118 satellite dish? Yes, many years ago that happened, right? What what 278 00:20:24,118 --> 00:20:27,017 which was, you had to have a special award from the 279 00:20:27,017 --> 00:20:29,018 Secretariat of Communications and Transportation to have a 280 00:20:29,018 --> 00:20:32,684 satellite dish. How many years ago was that long? Fortunately. 281 00:20:32,684 --> 00:20:37,585 Well, but now with the war in Russia, Ukraine Ah, 282 00:20:37,585 --> 00:20:43,751 we must remember that Eagle Musk a o do 283 00:20:47,318 --> 00:20:52,250 in this to connect to their satellite networks to the link so 284 00:20:52,250 --> 00:20:56,284 that the Ukrainians continue to have a link despite the fact that 285 00:20:56,284 --> 00:20:59,118 suffer some kind of boycott or attack on their lines of 286 00:20:59,118 --> 00:21:01,884 communication and it is considered that it is that it is that it is 287 00:21:01,884 --> 00:21:07,684 essential right? In Europe it has been happening for many 288 00:21:07,684 --> 00:21:11,784 years more and more regulations the technical issue as you 289 00:21:11,784 --> 00:21:16,151 you just mentioned because it has already 290 00:21:16,151 --> 00:21:19,751 been wireless, either by fiber optics, that is 291 00:21:20,051 --> 00:21:23,351 there is ehh with all the technology that this implies, 292 00:21:23,351 --> 00:21:28,251 the routers, etc., right? Domain servers, etc. oh without 293 00:21:28,251 --> 00:21:33,450 However, in any case, regulation enters for the 294 00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:36,151 countries that have the technological capacity to do so. 295 00:21:36,151 --> 00:21:41,884 Let us return to the case of China. That in China you can't be everything 296 00:21:41,884 --> 00:21:45,884 and you can't have access to everything. It is limited. Has its 297 00:21:45,884 --> 00:21:50,284 Facebook itself, your version of Facebook. 298 00:21:52,484 --> 00:21:58,485 Twitter like its clones adapted to China and and and 299 00:21:58,485 --> 00:22:03,417 they can't get into what's in the rest of the world. 300 00:22:03,417 --> 00:22:05,985 We can call that the internet is being divided. That is 301 00:22:05,985 --> 00:22:08,585 a risk because of the internet because Russia, Ukraine, 302 00:22:08,585 --> 00:22:10,884 Russia yes, of course it is a tough one, that it is a very 303 00:22:10,884 --> 00:22:13,850 clear risk, leaving a country completely out, right? East, 304 00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:18,018 it sets a precedent that that would eventually have a 305 00:22:18,018 --> 00:22:20,151 terrible impact on everything that is internet. But what is 306 00:22:20,151 --> 00:22:28,351 doing for China there How are we going to be able to qualify it? 307 00:22:28,384 --> 00:22:34,418 I even doubt, Jeffrey, that the Chinese issue regulations, they 308 00:22:34,418 --> 00:22:38,784 simply grab them and say, well, let's see tomorrow they close the door 309 00:22:38,784 --> 00:22:43,017 door to Jeffrey Networks and we will no longer see their 310 00:22:43,017 --> 00:22:49,751 applications here, right? Not this me, no, I'm not sure it's 311 00:22:49,751 --> 00:22:52,951 really a regulation as we see it in the West 312 00:22:52,951 --> 00:22:58,984 because the Chinese usually do not act as we act and 313 00:22:58,984 --> 00:23:04,951 we think, then he is even more imposing authoritarian 314 00:23:04,951 --> 00:23:08,284 or simply one day they close the key and 315 00:23:08,284 --> 00:23:14,017 The hot water ran out, right? but it is a type of regulation, 316 00:23:14,017 --> 00:23:17,484 right? If you do not allow Jeffrey Networks to install 317 00:23:17,484 --> 00:23:21,952 in China or operate in China are regulating who can 318 00:23:21,952 --> 00:23:24,785 operate and what kind of information can enter this 319 00:23:24,785 --> 00:23:29,751 to the country. Yes, what happens is that you have to understand 320 00:23:29,751 --> 00:23:33,985 that obviously in the world we have different legal systems. 321 00:23:33,985 --> 00:23:36,550 So it can happen that many of the Eastern 322 00:23:36,550 --> 00:23:39,751 regulations in general are incomprehensible 323 00:23:39,751 --> 00:23:44,184 by the western world because they are based on another 324 00:23:44,184 --> 00:23:48,318 type of legal structures and legal institutions but in 325 00:23:48,318 --> 00:23:50,685 reality, that is, in China they do have a legal system, they 326 00:23:50,685 --> 00:23:53,484 have a constitution, they have laws, they have regulations, as 327 00:23:53,484 --> 00:23:58,418 well you say Jeffrey, that is to say in the end well yes, yes they 328 00:23:58,418 --> 00:24:02,350 are yes they are binding with the outside, the thing is that maybe 329 00:24:02,350 --> 00:24:06,352 they have criteria that there if I give the doctor a little reason 330 00:24:06,352 --> 00:24:10,151 Martínez, which are more radical criteria, right? Where 331 00:24:10,151 --> 00:24:12,718 they say to see for a national security issue for a 332 00:24:12,718 --> 00:24:17,484 economic competition for an issue especially the issue 333 00:24:17,484 --> 00:24:20,018 of national security that if you realize it was there 334 00:24:20,018 --> 00:24:24,484 reading there is a theory that the extremes come together 335 00:24:24,484 --> 00:24:27,051 right? I forgot the name of the theory but it is a bit what 336 00:24:27,051 --> 00:24:29,350 the United States does, that is, the United States also for 337 00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:33,484 national security, that is, it systematically violates many 338 00:24:33,484 --> 00:24:37,518 human rights a state that is the number one excuse right? 339 00:24:37,518 --> 00:24:39,618 Total national security just because the Chinese say oh well 340 00:24:39,618 --> 00:24:42,918 I mean I'm going to isolate myself from what the Chinese do 341 00:24:42,918 --> 00:24:45,817 Americans is to invade and what the Chinese are doing is 342 00:24:45,817 --> 00:24:50,118 isolating themselves. Yes, as is. The Chinese do as just their 343 00:24:50,118 --> 00:24:52,684 ball, your crystal ball here. And the United States says, ah, you. 344 00:24:52,684 --> 00:24:56,751 Your country eh that you are thousands of kilometers from my border, but 345 00:24:56,751 --> 00:24:59,484 Did you know? What you're doing is against my national 346 00:24:59,484 --> 00:25:04,618 security, boom, I invade you. Nope? oh boom I restrict 347 00:25:04,618 --> 00:25:07,518 something, whatever. I put, I impose a tariff on 348 00:25:07,518 --> 00:25:11,017 you, what do I know. Then. So there is the case 349 00:25:11,017 --> 00:25:15,450 Huawei, right? Yes, exactly. And and it is the theme as approaches. 350 00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:19,018 For example, eh, and look how they turn around the Chinese. 351 00:25:19,018 --> 00:25:23,085 I'm going to not get too far Jeffrey from this topic but I'm 352 00:25:23,085 --> 00:25:25,952 going to put an example of TikTok so at the end of the day that 353 00:25:25,952 --> 00:25:29,184 Donald Trump said you shouldn't buy TikTok or TikTok 354 00:25:29,184 --> 00:25:31,384 has to be acquired by an American company because 355 00:25:31,384 --> 00:25:34,918 there is a lot of data on US citizens that is at risk and 356 00:25:34,918 --> 00:25:38,551 so I am going to force the acquisition of TikTok TikTok 357 00:25:38,551 --> 00:25:42,151 Very intelligently, he says, well, no, my dear, I'm going to 358 00:25:42,151 --> 00:25:45,251 establish myself as a Californian company, it's going to settle in 359 00:25:45,251 --> 00:25:48,418 California like any American company and then they say 360 00:25:48,418 --> 00:25:52,418 oh well I've already turned it around, that is now yes no 361 00:25:52,418 --> 00:25:55,184 You can do anything to me because I am a company, that is, I 362 00:25:55,184 --> 00:25:59,451 am already a compatriot of yours, a legal entity with the same 363 00:25:59,451 --> 00:26:01,651 rights than any American. And what happens? 364 00:26:01,651 --> 00:26:05,451 That in the end ehh the North American state stayed like 365 00:26:05,451 --> 00:26:08,351 Nope? And what and what now? That then ah well okay then 366 00:26:08,351 --> 00:26:11,817 I'm going to investigate you that is recently they are 367 00:26:11,817 --> 00:26:15,084 investigating TikTok because they say is that even if you are 368 00:26:15,084 --> 00:26:17,418 already a North American company you continue to traffic data from 369 00:26:17,418 --> 00:26:21,585 American citizens and then just, that is, it is this 370 00:26:21,585 --> 00:26:25,484 issue of how technically and legally you turn it around 371 00:26:25,484 --> 00:26:28,752 to different laws. How do you get out of 372 00:26:28,752 --> 00:26:32,284 the application of a norm? And then right now 373 00:26:32,284 --> 00:26:34,818 you say oh well, what do you think? I'm already one of yours, 374 00:26:34,818 --> 00:26:39,084 you can't attack me, you can't attack my rights, against 375 00:26:39,084 --> 00:26:41,618 issues of economic competition, but then again comes the the the the 376 00:26:41,618 --> 00:26:46,818 the pretext or the excuse already from the drawer of the United States 377 00:26:46,818 --> 00:26:49,084 States on the issue of national security and they say well, now 378 00:26:49,084 --> 00:26:52,284 I'm going to investigate you because since I know you're not 379 00:26:52,284 --> 00:26:56,818 sending that information to China Yes, look that one day it 380 00:26:56,818 --> 00:27:02,050 would be very interesting to talk to Michael Odwin about what was 381 00:27:02,050 --> 00:27:08,685 member of the BOR of ISOC and is one of the lawyers of TikTok 382 00:27:08,685 --> 00:27:14,084 and of these architects of this strategy for the well pa que 383 00:27:14,084 --> 00:27:19,451 defend TikTok, right? And the and the how well the government of 384 00:27:19,451 --> 00:27:24,518 The United States in a certain layer because apart from that there 385 00:27:24,518 --> 00:27:29,884 are a series of very interesting double standards, right? and and and 386 00:27:32,617 --> 00:27:35,718 United States is the most typical case, we have freedom of 387 00:27:35,718 --> 00:27:41,817 expression on the one hand protected by the first amendment and and 388 00:27:41,817 --> 00:27:45,218 anything you want to add to it with a military perspective, 389 00:27:45,218 --> 00:27:50,184 Nope? I think that in this world we still need to see 390 00:27:50,184 --> 00:27:56,318 an invasion based on a data breage or on a eh eh hacking 391 00:27:56,318 --> 00:28:00,418 massive and that there is a military invasion based 392 00:28:00,418 --> 00:28:05,518 on one in eh in in ah in a cataloged cybercrime of 393 00:28:05,518 --> 00:28:07,351 international ultraterrorism and that justifies one another country 394 00:28:07,351 --> 00:28:13,817 Nope? I already think that there we would already hit rock bottom, 395 00:28:13,817 --> 00:28:21,017 right? Yes, because today, well, if Assange is there, right? he have it 396 00:28:21,017 --> 00:28:27,618 classified as terrorist, yes? For a Data Bridge, right? 397 00:28:27,618 --> 00:28:31,817 At the end of the day and all the people who were 398 00:28:31,817 --> 00:28:35,985 involved in this case because before him they 399 00:28:35,985 --> 00:28:41,484 have applied the law to them with all their rude 400 00:28:41,850 --> 00:28:47,451 Mexico hero remember what our president Bella said 401 00:28:47,451 --> 00:28:52,284 Sánchez yes, I don't know if But I think that 402 00:29:03,484 --> 00:29:06,951 PsychoLeague. 403 00:29:17,050 --> 00:29:20,751 Exactly. yeah 404 00:29:21,484 --> 00:29:28,551 or our Jeffrey and Raul Castillo. 405 00:29:31,351 --> 00:29:36,184 Like Pegasus in this conflict and the interest of US 406 00:29:36,184 --> 00:29:40,551 companies. Again, we fall into the interest and the 407 00:29:40,551 --> 00:29:44,752 interest always leads to regulation. Because it is 408 00:29:44,752 --> 00:29:51,118 precisely one of the forces that balances the interests in a 409 00:29:51,118 --> 00:29:54,951 market as we understand it in the West, yes? Whether it was 410 00:29:54,951 --> 00:29:58,250 from the West, well, and from a certain West, right? Perhaps 411 00:29:58,250 --> 00:30:02,918 in our small vision of the internet well we understand that 412 00:30:02,918 --> 00:30:09,450 Nope? The balanced interests or or with or regulated with 413 00:30:09,450 --> 00:30:13,484 the regulation worth the redundancy but I say here right now 414 00:30:13,484 --> 00:30:17,884 I pass the word to Cynthia but I think there are 415 00:30:17,884 --> 00:30:22,985 more tools not only not only Pegasus I say of the 416 00:30:22,985 --> 00:30:27,518 most laughable cases are all the West trusted Casterski 417 00:30:27,518 --> 00:30:32,551 with blind eyes because they were the virus experts 418 00:30:32,551 --> 00:30:36,484 Nope? And suddenly it turns out that since Qaspersky is based on 419 00:30:36,484 --> 00:30:39,552 Russia, well, now what do we do? Are we running out 420 00:30:39,552 --> 00:30:44,684 of antivirus or why use Castersky on a computer in 421 00:30:44,684 --> 00:30:47,884 NATO countries could be listed as some viola 422 00:30:47,884 --> 00:30:53,151 right? A to a law. I'm sure there's a law out there 423 00:30:53,151 --> 00:30:58,284 It says you are prevented from using Russian software, right? And 424 00:30:58,284 --> 00:31:03,017 if it's not for everyone, at least for the government, right? Then 425 00:31:03,017 --> 00:31:07,484 I believe that this topic of cyberespionage tools, from the 426 00:31:07,484 --> 00:31:11,484 outset, they do not know what there are. Yes because? Because 427 00:31:11,484 --> 00:31:16,352 It would be illogical to have, advertise a cyberespionage 428 00:31:16,352 --> 00:31:21,552 tool unless there is a lic, right? and him and the 429 00:31:21,552 --> 00:31:26,551 Second, well, if we see, for example, the information 430 00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:32,151 reported by ISOC in the Poise project, yes, no. 431 00:31:32,151 --> 00:31:37,017 you have entered between Pose de ISOC and and and there you will 432 00:31:37,017 --> 00:31:41,018 see all the problems that arise during the conflict in Russia 433 00:31:41,018 --> 00:31:44,952 that the traffic between Russia and Ukraine is beginning to 434 00:31:44,952 --> 00:31:50,118 be observed, I even remember Cynthia a lot, eh, transmitting a 435 00:31:50,118 --> 00:31:53,718 image of what cyberattacks were like and how many passed through 436 00:31:53,718 --> 00:31:57,952 Mexico, right? And then in the cyberattack there they take 437 00:31:57,952 --> 00:32:04,518 whatever, right? In between, then I think that they do 438 00:32:04,518 --> 00:32:10,317 have an impact, but it is from both sides. both west 439 00:32:10,317 --> 00:32:16,584 trying to get their hands on Russian traffic or looking after 440 00:32:16,584 --> 00:32:23,351 their traffic to Russia and from Russia and Russia trying to de 441 00:32:23,351 --> 00:32:27,250 implement a cyber war, yes? First to the Ukraine and then 442 00:32:27,250 --> 00:32:32,551 to the West and everything that bothers them, right? No more 443 00:32:32,551 --> 00:32:37,784 In the case of Pegasus, Pegasus is known because it is a 444 00:32:37,784 --> 00:32:43,585 software that is sold by an Israeli company, mhm, and that 445 00:32:43,585 --> 00:32:49,017 for being sold and for those who want it, even its 446 00:32:49,017 --> 00:32:54,684 capabilities are known, which are impressive, but there we can 447 00:32:54,684 --> 00:33:01,385 NCA la ah What's his name? The one in the United States must have 448 00:33:01,385 --> 00:33:05,384 the same or more powerful software but of course how it works 449 00:33:05,384 --> 00:33:07,850 For the United States government, nobody knows what is 450 00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:11,850 happening, maybe Korea, North Korea, maybe East Russia. 451 00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:18,484 eh maybe China has this type of software but 452 00:33:20,484 --> 00:33:25,552 musicals right? But, and it's also like a weapon, it's also not 453 00:33:25,552 --> 00:33:29,284 illegal, huh? In other words, it is not one hundred percent illegal and 454 00:33:29,284 --> 00:33:32,618 here here to the east as always, as Luis says, I'm here to 455 00:33:32,618 --> 00:33:35,918 put my poison here, there's something very important here. Is 456 00:33:35,918 --> 00:33:39,051 tool, as Jeffrey rightly said, because it is legally 457 00:33:39,051 --> 00:33:43,118 sold to governments because governments have the 458 00:33:43,118 --> 00:33:44,551 right to use it in cyber-intelligence operations. 459 00:33:44,551 --> 00:33:48,684 That is, when there are issues where you have 460 00:33:48,684 --> 00:33:50,850 to investigate, for example, some illicit, drug 461 00:33:50,850 --> 00:33:55,918 trafficking, some infiltration of I don't know, of 462 00:33:55,918 --> 00:33:58,451 certain spies, etc. In other words, the tool itself 463 00:33:58,451 --> 00:34:03,152 is not really illegal. What, what, as Jeffrey says, 464 00:34:03,152 --> 00:34:08,318 began to give him a certain fame, relevance and others is the 465 00:34:08,318 --> 00:34:12,151 whole framework that was made for the acquisition of this type of 466 00:34:12,151 --> 00:34:16,018 solutions by private companies that were not 467 00:34:16,018 --> 00:34:20,318 governments and that is, since they were not the, the, 468 00:34:20,318 --> 00:34:24,384 the choir, the original target. In fact, the manufacturer 469 00:34:24,384 --> 00:34:26,918 himself said we have to fix this issue because 470 00:34:26,918 --> 00:34:30,850 we know why it is coming to this market or 471 00:34:30,850 --> 00:34:34,151 why they are doing this legally speaking and all 472 00:34:34,151 --> 00:34:38,284 you are like eh use of shell companies and others for 473 00:34:38,284 --> 00:34:40,450 the commercialization of this solution because it is not 474 00:34:40,450 --> 00:34:43,317 designed for that right? And in theory, well, they said we 475 00:34:43,317 --> 00:34:46,551 are going to pay more attention to who we sell it to because 476 00:34:46,551 --> 00:34:51,618 then pharmaceuticals this obviously politicians and other 477 00:34:51,618 --> 00:34:55,751 things acquire this solution to spy on their enemies, 478 00:34:55,751 --> 00:34:59,384 above all political enemies but it is, or rather, it must be made 479 00:34:59,384 --> 00:35:02,884 clear that in itself the solution, let us say, or this type of 480 00:35:02,884 --> 00:35:06,850 cyberespionage tools are not illegal right? In other words, 481 00:35:06,850 --> 00:35:10,084 they are not illegal per se, what is illegal can become 482 00:35:10,084 --> 00:35:14,918 illicit because it is for what you use them but if there is 483 00:35:14,918 --> 00:35:20,884 a law that prohibits you from listening to conversations of 484 00:35:20,884 --> 00:35:24,484 people without your permission, right? This, ah, that's what 485 00:35:24,484 --> 00:35:27,450 Cynthia answered me one day, it's great, exactly, let's see is that 486 00:35:27,450 --> 00:35:31,285 that's the issue, right? That is, from the constitution the 487 00:35:31,285 --> 00:35:35,618 illegal intervention of conversations is prohibited, but still, or 488 00:35:35,618 --> 00:35:39,484 that is, the legality is justly proven when you are one, for example, 489 00:35:39,484 --> 00:35:44,018 the, the, the CISEN, which no longer exists, but does exist, or 490 00:35:44,018 --> 00:35:49,951 I mean, nothing else was changed, eh, in the end, it did go through a court 491 00:35:49,951 --> 00:35:53,417 order, nothing more than the only thing that happened was that it didn't 492 00:35:53,417 --> 00:35:55,484 I needed to prove an interest. I mean, now you know we 493 00:35:55,484 --> 00:35:58,284 have a national security issue. Well authorize, oh yes, 494 00:35:58,284 --> 00:36:03,552 perfect. In other words, it is not, that is to say, there are 495 00:36:03,552 --> 00:36:05,451 exception cases like the ones you mentioned or security issues. 496 00:36:05,451 --> 00:36:08,918 national, cyber intelligence issues eh where 497 00:36:08,918 --> 00:36:12,918 the use of these tools is justified. where is it 498 00:36:12,918 --> 00:36:16,951 Prohibited is when you don't have this, let's say, this 499 00:36:16,951 --> 00:36:21,284 legal interest, or you're not legitimated to do so. I mean 500 00:36:21,284 --> 00:36:25,484 there has to be a late motive. Okay. It is that the authority is 501 00:36:25,484 --> 00:36:31,850 supposed to, as Cynthia says, with a judicial order to an entity of 502 00:36:31,850 --> 00:36:35,051 authority 503 00:36:35,552 --> 00:36:41,450 ehh public that type of software for their own purposes 504 00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:44,318 and objectives ah that are legally established in the 505 00:36:44,318 --> 00:36:47,884 constitution or in the laws, however, what the general 506 00:36:47,884 --> 00:36:51,417 public realizes what they use that software for nothing 507 00:36:51,417 --> 00:36:56,951 more than it is not very public but of course 508 00:36:56,951 --> 00:37:01,051 that ehh all roads lead there is to see what Gersh 509 00:37:01,051 --> 00:37:05,218 Manero ah spoke with so-and-so and it was published or 510 00:37:05,218 --> 00:37:11,484 the political opponent in turn of the president or x 511 00:37:11,484 --> 00:37:18,617 person ah his audio came out to the public ah I remember 512 00:37:18,617 --> 00:37:24,518 with that communicator aha that is he the famous communicator 513 00:37:24,518 --> 00:37:28,985 that he has that radio program that his dad talked about 514 00:37:28,985 --> 00:37:31,451 UFOs. What's his name? This Pedro Ferriz Pedro Ferriz is 515 00:37:31,451 --> 00:37:34,551 Of course 516 00:37:47,718 --> 00:37:54,151 of damaging him and if they damaged him during Peña Nieto's six-year term, oh 517 00:37:54,151 --> 00:37:58,284 yes, they did damage him and it's just me and that's how many of us have seen it 518 00:37:58,284 --> 00:38:01,985 cases of audios that you say well how the audios appeared 519 00:38:01,985 --> 00:38:04,684 how they can record the attorney general of the republic 520 00:38:04,684 --> 00:38:10,785 this easily not once but several times eh it's because they 521 00:38:10,785 --> 00:38:14,684 rotate that software and someone who has it is using it in a way 522 00:38:14,684 --> 00:38:19,218 arbitrary not to pursue the objectives or the goals or what 523 00:38:19,218 --> 00:38:24,684 is indicated by the current laws but to comply with the whims 524 00:38:24,684 --> 00:38:29,618 o o o personal goals or particular interests now you 525 00:38:29,618 --> 00:38:33,618 also have to remember that when the internet was born 526 00:38:33,618 --> 00:38:37,884 in the universities, well, I told you no, this connection 527 00:38:37,884 --> 00:38:42,951 is only to transmit scientific data and this Chin Chin 528 00:38:42,951 --> 00:38:47,084 someone who uses it for something else and what happened? 529 00:38:47,084 --> 00:38:50,418 People stayed up late at night when no one was supervising and 530 00:38:50,418 --> 00:38:53,618 when there was no power to supervise the content of the 531 00:38:53,618 --> 00:38:57,985 networks and they began to download everything, right? Or is it 532 00:38:57,985 --> 00:39:03,450 as natural to human behavior reuse tools 533 00:39:03,450 --> 00:39:08,984 for other purposes beyond that of the specific 534 00:39:08,984 --> 00:39:14,151 and if there is no measure of control and defense against that, 535 00:39:14,151 --> 00:39:17,850 then people do whatever it takes because it is part of the 536 00:39:17,850 --> 00:39:22,985 freedoms of the internet right? Now I think that's where this topic 537 00:39:22,985 --> 00:39:27,585 that you say about Pegasus comes in, now here we are seeing it in 538 00:39:27,585 --> 00:39:31,384 the Peña Nieto government even to 539 00:39:31,384 --> 00:39:36,151 spy and use to build political advantage 540 00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:40,318 in the current government it is fine too. Sure, sure, well, 541 00:39:40,318 --> 00:39:43,484 if you have the tool, why aren't you going to use it? Nope? It 542 00:39:43,484 --> 00:39:46,218 did they just buy? In other words, in 2019 they made the 543 00:39:46,218 --> 00:39:49,952 purchase through the same shell company that had been 544 00:39:49,952 --> 00:39:53,218 detected by Aristegui when he did when he denounced that 545 00:39:53,218 --> 00:39:58,018 he had been spied on. Now, now picture yourself in terms 546 00:39:58,018 --> 00:40:01,985 global events that may be happening between the countries of 547 00:40:01,985 --> 00:40:08,551 Lotan and Russia, yes? To spy on each other and and and to know about 548 00:40:08,551 --> 00:40:11,352 the military strategy of the other, because here you are already talking 549 00:40:11,352 --> 00:40:15,417 of a military issue, then you have a satellite 550 00:40:15,417 --> 00:40:20,884 observation, you have spies, you have a series of people 551 00:40:20,884 --> 00:40:24,684 observing the field but what flows in the information can 552 00:40:24,684 --> 00:40:29,850 be more valuable than that intelligence that it gives you 553 00:40:29,850 --> 00:40:34,384 the field itself gives you strategy, right? I don't know if 554 00:40:34,384 --> 00:40:38,418 you've seen that they had to resort to things like interception 555 00:40:38,418 --> 00:40:43,518 that it is not even the radio listen again to the 556 00:40:43,518 --> 00:40:46,818 radio transmissions and to decode what they said there, 557 00:40:46,818 --> 00:40:49,985 nothing more than the very confident Russians because they didn't 558 00:40:49,985 --> 00:40:54,384 code much anymore, right? So this one, well, they already knew where 559 00:40:54,384 --> 00:40:56,784 they were going to move. Something very interesting here that 560 00:40:56,784 --> 00:41:03,552 we have not seen is for the first time we see a war with drones 561 00:41:03,552 --> 00:41:08,018 on a massive scale and we do not see a counterattack against the drones 562 00:41:08,018 --> 00:41:12,818 because they are not going to say that one has very high security 563 00:41:12,818 --> 00:41:17,518 computer science, surely you spray a drone with white noise and it 564 00:41:17,518 --> 00:41:22,684 falls. Nope? Because we have not seen if it has happened and not 565 00:41:22,684 --> 00:41:27,484 they let us see it. The war scenario is kind of blind, 566 00:41:27,484 --> 00:41:32,084 right? Either you are joining threads or the opinion 567 00:41:32,084 --> 00:41:35,417 public is putting together a thread but it could be 568 00:41:35,417 --> 00:41:40,284 a totally wrong track, right? because it is thought 569 00:41:40,284 --> 00:41:49,351 so that it is not known. well, but you check YouTube you can see 570 00:41:49,351 --> 00:41:56,918 there videos where you listen to the recordings of the soldiers or 571 00:41:56,918 --> 00:42:01,451 Russian officers talking to their families 572 00:42:01,451 --> 00:42:05,417 in in in Russia so this is using all the all the 573 00:42:05,417 --> 00:42:10,318 computer tools to capture all communications 574 00:42:10,318 --> 00:42:14,785 from the enemy in the current war against Russia 575 00:42:14,785 --> 00:42:19,918 Ukraine I don't think anything else is a 100 percent Ukrainian 576 00:42:19,918 --> 00:42:24,151 effort or operation. This Ukraine has behind I say who 577 00:42:24,151 --> 00:42:28,484 it shows its face is its skull but behind it there is a whole 578 00:42:28,484 --> 00:42:33,552 series of powers from countries that are helping and are 579 00:42:33,552 --> 00:42:39,084 helping in different ways. Ah, a specific case, that is, 580 00:42:39,084 --> 00:42:42,751 handling intelligence. A specific case that I remember and 581 00:42:42,751 --> 00:42:47,718 it is very old it was when the invasion of when Argentina 582 00:42:47,718 --> 00:42:54,250 took the Malvinas this las What is it called? Folklore 583 00:42:54,250 --> 00:42:57,384 Folkland Islands Oakland Island 584 00:42:57,384 --> 00:43:00,551 for the English Argentina then is 585 00:43:00,551 --> 00:43:06,785 It's like he dreams of chicken with a cough, a telegencia ang latera 586 00:43:06,785 --> 00:43:11,850 for this patara alo Argentinians that he knows maybe he hasn't 587 00:43:11,850 --> 00:43:16,684 been so easy to win or take back the islands if the United States 588 00:43:16,684 --> 00:43:21,484 The United States does not participate very discreetly 589 00:43:21,484 --> 00:43:24,551 supporting its allies of all life who were those of the 590 00:43:24,551 --> 00:43:29,484 British and now who knows who is helping with 591 00:43:29,484 --> 00:43:32,318 a whole series of intelligence, data collection, 592 00:43:32,318 --> 00:43:36,452 communications oh and on YouTube you can see this 593 00:43:36,452 --> 00:43:40,551 innocuous calls from a relative, a soldier they say 594 00:43:40,551 --> 00:43:44,151 what is there that is going wrong or is suffering from 595 00:43:44,151 --> 00:43:47,284 this, etc., but who knows how many things we do not know and 596 00:43:47,284 --> 00:43:52,218 Of course there will be no light, right? this that information 597 00:43:53,385 --> 00:43:57,952 yes, also how much was planted, right? For him, for each, 598 00:43:57,952 --> 00:44:02,718 for each side, right? I say yes, of course not intelligence 599 00:44:02,718 --> 00:44:09,252 artificial today allows you to do many things No no zip fakes. 600 00:44:09,252 --> 00:44:14,984 Cynthia Pepe was there. I just presented 601 00:44:27,417 --> 00:44:30,518 OK. 602 00:44:41,818 --> 00:44:47,450 And La Ca 603 00:44:56,385 --> 00:44:59,450 conversation that comes to you but the context, that is, 604 00:44:59,450 --> 00:45:02,884 how the same scene can be interpreted depending on the 605 00:45:02,884 --> 00:45:06,151 narrative that you want to give in one way or another, right? In 606 00:45:06,151 --> 00:45:09,552 other words, the Russians saying ah but wait, there are armies 607 00:45:09,552 --> 00:45:15,284 Ukrainians who are carrying out crimes ehh racial right? 608 00:45:15,284 --> 00:45:19,317 And they are and are carrying out, for example, this 609 00:45:19,317 --> 00:45:21,484 massacre of people of Russian origin and then it is just like 610 00:45:21,484 --> 00:45:25,884 like this control of the narrative that is done 611 00:45:25,884 --> 00:45:28,351 through the images and the information that we know 612 00:45:28,351 --> 00:45:32,818 reaches the West because there has already been a lot of 613 00:45:32,818 --> 00:45:35,084 ehh content where people from Ukraine tell you that the 614 00:45:35,084 --> 00:45:39,918 things are not what they look like I know how they are 615 00:45:39,918 --> 00:45:43,251 appearing in the news and then you have information from Russia 616 00:45:43,251 --> 00:45:46,551 but you have information from Ukraine and sometimes 617 00:45:46,551 --> 00:45:49,451 a lot is played with this narrative theme. here it 618 00:45:49,451 --> 00:45:51,884 important thing is we are reaching a point where the fight 619 00:45:51,884 --> 00:45:56,151 is no longer about access to information eh the fight or 620 00:45:56,151 --> 00:45:59,451 Somehow our job as human beings and as 621 00:45:59,451 --> 00:46:04,084 Internet users is to begin to discern between all 622 00:46:04,084 --> 00:46:10,318 the information that reaches us that is really real or that it 623 00:46:10,318 --> 00:46:14,984 obeys or from what sources it comes to know if it is if it is 624 00:46:14,984 --> 00:46:18,250 reliable or not reliable and it is also a control method 625 00:46:18,250 --> 00:46:20,684 that is being used by governments, that is, they are not 626 00:46:20,684 --> 00:46:25,751 removing access, they are not restricting this content 627 00:46:25,751 --> 00:46:29,585 but they are manipulating the content for you to take 628 00:46:29,585 --> 00:46:33,484 party on one side or the other. Of course, we have to go 629 00:46:33,484 --> 00:46:39,850 back to the propaganda techniques, right? now one thing 630 00:46:39,850 --> 00:46:45,951 that what Luis Miguel or Cynthia mentioned, who said it a 631 00:46:45,951 --> 00:46:51,418 while ago, a government tries to control, that is, a whole 632 00:46:51,418 --> 00:46:55,118 totalitarian government is going to try to control a government 633 00:46:55,118 --> 00:46:58,418 that is not solitary, it is also going to try to put some 634 00:46:58,418 --> 00:47:05,284 type of control so that there is no let's say light theme 635 00:47:11,351 --> 00:47:15,018 oh human rights, etc., right? Discrimination, I don't know, 636 00:47:15,018 --> 00:47:23,450 anything. Now it happens with the advancement of technology 637 00:47:26,984 --> 00:47:31,585 to the touch satellites of low orbit and you can put almost 638 00:47:31,585 --> 00:47:35,484 in any point of the planet this on top of a mountain eh 639 00:47:35,484 --> 00:47:40,618 It is in some valley in some remote desert, you put your 640 00:47:40,618 --> 00:47:45,952 connection there and you have high speed, that is, internet from 641 00:47:45,952 --> 00:47:51,084 so to speak almost broadband is in any remote 642 00:47:51,084 --> 00:47:53,884 point as long as you have electricity the energy 643 00:47:53,884 --> 00:47:56,318 You get electricity with solar panels, huh? Who's 644 00:47:56,318 --> 00:47:59,318 going to tell you, it could be in the heart of China 645 00:47:59,318 --> 00:48:02,818 may be in the heart of the of Russia right? East 646 00:48:02,818 --> 00:48:06,485 Venezuela, anywhere else in Nicaragua and and and nobody is 647 00:48:06,485 --> 00:48:09,451 going to. Who is going to control or regulate you? As you can see 648 00:48:09,451 --> 00:48:13,450 you that advancement of technology that gives 649 00:48:13,450 --> 00:48:17,484 you the tool to break with any type of control or 650 00:48:17,484 --> 00:48:24,551 regulation that exists. good against forgiveness against kill 651 00:48:24,551 --> 00:48:30,318 switch there is not much defense huh? I mean literally you 652 00:48:30,318 --> 00:48:34,752 they physically disconnect and you only have what they do not 653 00:48:34,752 --> 00:48:38,250 disconnect you for, eh that's why I mentioned this tool the 654 00:48:38,250 --> 00:48:45,484 post that is like this registry that ISOC has of the phenomena 655 00:48:45,484 --> 00:48:48,418 that does not stop killing remember that not everyone 656 00:48:48,418 --> 00:48:52,551 understand what the Sil Switch is, that is, the switch 657 00:48:52,551 --> 00:48:58,250 that blocks you, this is the operator, you, you, tweet 658 00:48:58,250 --> 00:49:01,484 is is is is the modern part of you don't pay for electricity, 659 00:49:01,484 --> 00:49:06,551 well, I'll pay for it, right? I don't want to hit them anyway 660 00:49:06,551 --> 00:49:09,884 I disconnect you from the internet and that's it, but the 661 00:49:09,884 --> 00:49:12,751 operator in this case would be Starlink, an American company that 662 00:49:12,751 --> 00:49:15,218 he sells the antenna, maybe he sells it to you here in Mexico and you go 663 00:49:15,218 --> 00:49:19,850 Zoom in and take her to the desert in China eh no 664 00:49:19,850 --> 00:49:24,684 exactly that you can't do exactly that you can't do 665 00:49:24,684 --> 00:49:31,185 Starlink is geolocated so it lets you get out of the 666 00:49:31,185 --> 00:49:35,751 area where you hired Starling. Mhm. Yes. Already someone 667 00:49:35,751 --> 00:49:39,484 You already dealt with it in Mexico and with ISOC, right? In other words, 668 00:49:39,484 --> 00:49:44,318 someone wanted to buy one on the border with California and use it in 669 00:49:44,318 --> 00:49:48,084 Guadalajara and could not. Because it is geolocated. 670 00:49:48,084 --> 00:49:53,718 So, well, that's a topic, right? But but the reason 671 00:49:53,718 --> 00:49:59,418 is is nothing more. It is not a political reason. 672 00:50:02,384 --> 00:50:06,518 commercial and legal as well. Legal by? Hiring. Well, because 673 00:50:06,518 --> 00:50:09,618 you are contracting in that, that is, when you contract the 674 00:50:09,618 --> 00:50:13,084 service you have conditions in which they tell you in this 675 00:50:13,084 --> 00:50:15,484 territoriality that is literal there I am going to lend you the 676 00:50:15,484 --> 00:50:19,985 service. OK. That is, it is the same case of the eh 677 00:50:19,985 --> 00:50:24,284 regions of the DVDs. Exact. For example the same also Blue 678 00:50:24,284 --> 00:50:28,084 which is earlier and obviously does not compare to 679 00:50:28,084 --> 00:50:30,818 Starlink because Starlink is satellite and so on. But 680 00:50:30,818 --> 00:50:33,018 Blue is exactly the same case. Or you have to put it 681 00:50:33,018 --> 00:50:37,450 you put it in a place you say but this is mobile it is a little box 682 00:50:37,450 --> 00:50:40,718 and I could take it from one side for him well no that is literal 683 00:50:40,718 --> 00:50:44,951 so you change to three buildings you have to report the change 684 00:50:44,951 --> 00:50:49,850 of address to be able to use it because if not you can't but yes 685 00:50:49,850 --> 00:50:52,918 and they are control measures that are not 686 00:50:52,918 --> 00:50:58,551 regulated that there is none in in in any and 687 00:50:58,551 --> 00:51:00,151 and it is that here there is a super important thing in fact I was 688 00:51:00,151 --> 00:51:05,450 thinking this there is a there is a principle that goes oh what is it 689 00:51:05,450 --> 00:51:09,084 very old is rights of rights of Roman law that is the 690 00:51:09,084 --> 00:51:13,251 famous Pacta Sunser band that is the will of the parties 691 00:51:13,251 --> 00:51:15,484 it is the supreme law and the contracts then if that 692 00:51:15,484 --> 00:51:18,418 contract is not contrary to the law sorry but if you and me 693 00:51:18,418 --> 00:51:22,051 we are agreeing on that for both of us for the parties 694 00:51:22,051 --> 00:51:25,151 that we are contracting and our law program is like 695 00:51:25,151 --> 00:51:29,817 interconnection contracts, right? Yes exactly, 696 00:51:29,817 --> 00:51:34,818 literally. This as long as those contracts, those clauses 697 00:51:34,818 --> 00:51:39,751 are not violations of common law rules is valid and I can make 698 00:51:39,751 --> 00:51:43,284 it worth it to you because that is what you and I agree on, you 699 00:51:43,284 --> 00:51:46,151 you read, you agreed, perfect. And it's a very interesting 700 00:51:46,151 --> 00:51:49,184 thing. Many people do not understand the applicability 701 00:51:49,184 --> 00:51:53,218 of, of, that is, the How, how would you tell them? The link 702 00:51:53,218 --> 00:51:56,151 that generates a contract. That is, what exactly has the 703 00:51:56,151 --> 00:52:01,451 force, is one, it is called, this, laws 704 00:52:01,818 --> 00:52:08,518 or the law between us. exact 705 00:52:09,518 --> 00:52:13,850 Nope? We have a few minutes left. This I would like 706 00:52:13,850 --> 00:52:17,618 to ask what are the main risks that you see there 707 00:52:17,618 --> 00:52:21,850 Now that there are different interests and needs 708 00:52:21,850 --> 00:52:26,951 to maintain and control a population that is under a 709 00:52:26,951 --> 00:52:31,017 ideology and that this affects the internet because the internet is the 710 00:52:31,017 --> 00:52:35,850 window or the door to the rest of the world, right? This am and and what 711 00:52:35,850 --> 00:52:39,518 the most particular case has been Russia, which has 712 00:52:39,518 --> 00:52:42,284 bombarded its own citizens with information and it reaches 713 00:52:42,284 --> 00:52:46,018 different information on the outside, right? What risks 714 00:52:46,018 --> 00:52:51,552 do you see in this? I still try to see it, I say stop 715 00:52:51,552 --> 00:52:57,284 close and thank eh I try to see the problem eh still 716 00:52:57,284 --> 00:53:01,985 on a larger scale yes yes you see what is happening in 717 00:53:01,985 --> 00:53:05,850 the international forums of the international telecommunications 718 00:53:05,850 --> 00:53:10,950 union every year there is this proposal of the 719 00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:14,151 governments of the world should have control of the 720 00:53:14,151 --> 00:53:17,418 internet, that is, why should ordinary citizens have it? But 721 00:53:17,418 --> 00:53:21,251 Well, that's how the Internet grew, well, it was born in the military 722 00:53:21,251 --> 00:53:26,018 and later it became civil and and and precisely the mission of I is 723 00:53:26,018 --> 00:53:31,218 that defending the internet from returning to that military 724 00:53:31,218 --> 00:53:35,585 state or under the control of a particular government. 725 00:53:35,585 --> 00:53:40,484 So who can defend it? All of us how? 726 00:53:40,484 --> 00:53:44,584 Well, by preventing the creation of those laws and those 727 00:53:44,584 --> 00:53:49,084 regulations that would give power to governments. But now the risk 728 00:53:49,084 --> 00:53:54,352 What I see as important is, uh, there is going to be a meeting in Romania 729 00:53:54,352 --> 00:53:58,450 in September and October, which is the meeting of plenipotentiaries of 730 00:53:58,450 --> 00:54:01,450 the International Telecommunications Union, what is agreed there 731 00:54:01,450 --> 00:54:06,318 is that it has the level of an international treaty, that is, the 732 00:54:06,318 --> 00:54:10,418 ambassador eh the person who represents me in Mexico 733 00:54:10,418 --> 00:54:15,217 is an ambassador and has power has a power of attorney 734 00:54:15,217 --> 00:54:19,585 plenipotentiaries, which is very dangerous, right? I mean 735 00:54:19,585 --> 00:54:22,418 everything and and most of us don't know who he is until 736 00:54:22,418 --> 00:54:29,018 last moment almost almost then the risk is that in this 737 00:54:29,018 --> 00:54:33,952 internet split or in this attempt to secede from the 738 00:54:33,952 --> 00:54:38,684 Internet of Russia and China convince the Arab and African 739 00:54:38,684 --> 00:54:46,084 states and eh they can have such a force that eh the 740 00:54:46,084 --> 00:54:49,952 governments try to take control of certain parts of the 741 00:54:49,952 --> 00:54:53,151 internet one of the things they want most is control 742 00:54:53,151 --> 00:54:56,785 of the root servers because whoever has control of the 743 00:54:56,785 --> 00:55:03,184 root server has a lot of control over the flow of the 744 00:55:03,184 --> 00:55:06,284 addressing the data, that's how the Chinese did it, that's 745 00:55:06,284 --> 00:55:11,850 that was the uh a first big successful attempt by China to 746 00:55:11,850 --> 00:55:16,018 eh take control of your internet yes, because they say 747 00:55:16,018 --> 00:55:19,850 well this is the Chinese Internet right? So this is it 748 00:55:19,850 --> 00:55:24,018 they just took control of the root servers and do 749 00:55:24,018 --> 00:55:27,884 whatever you want because you have no route out, unless 750 00:55:27,884 --> 00:55:31,684 you manage through some signaling channel, which are 751 00:55:31,684 --> 00:55:36,884 blocked by the Chinese and then it is done as they say 752 00:55:36,884 --> 00:55:40,085 Nope? But hey, that's my opinion, keeping your eyes 753 00:55:40,085 --> 00:55:43,985 open and not forgetting these three principles that 754 00:55:43,985 --> 00:55:47,850 what we maintain in the Internet Society is that 755 00:55:47,850 --> 00:55:54,318 our mission is to build ehh promote and defend the 756 00:55:54,318 --> 00:55:57,918 Internet. So if we don't lose sight of that, we will 757 00:55:57,918 --> 00:56:02,684 have a healthy and useful internet for us. Yes? Useful 758 00:56:02,684 --> 00:56:07,284 It is everything that is not an illicit purpose, right? Or 759 00:56:07,284 --> 00:56:12,418 that it harms others, so let's work for that, that's what 760 00:56:12,418 --> 00:56:18,250 that what we can do from our trench, thank you. 761 00:56:18,250 --> 00:56:23,552 Well, precisely, ehh, very much in line with what Luis says. 762 00:56:23,552 --> 00:56:26,651 Miguel, that is, in the end, what we have left here as a civil 763 00:56:26,651 --> 00:56:30,018 society is to raise our voices and that is what has worked. Now I 764 00:56:30,018 --> 00:56:34,118 I think we should do an upgrade, that is, from the 765 00:56:34,118 --> 00:56:36,951 first initiatives, at least in Mexico, right? I mean, 766 00:56:36,951 --> 00:56:40,051 grounding it to a more local or perhaps regional issue, 767 00:56:40,051 --> 00:56:45,284 that is, the legislation that arises in the region Ehh mmm 768 00:56:45,284 --> 00:56:46,018 since the first initiatives to regulate 769 00:56:46,018 --> 00:56:49,484 at the time and some things have 770 00:56:49,484 --> 00:56:55,017 passed after a lot of effort ehh for bad or let's say they have 771 00:56:55,017 --> 00:56:59,118 passed there half way or rather attenuated with respect to what is 772 00:56:59,118 --> 00:57:01,484 was originally proposing but well in the middle end they 773 00:57:01,484 --> 00:57:04,018 passed it through there for example the reforms to the 774 00:57:04,018 --> 00:57:07,751 law was the copyright ehh but well that is at the end 775 00:57:07,751 --> 00:57:10,418 of the day what remains to us as responsible users and 776 00:57:10,418 --> 00:57:14,850 that is why institutions such as ISOC are so important, it is precisely 777 00:57:14,850 --> 00:57:18,884 because they empower the user, that is, they give him a voice and 778 00:57:18,884 --> 00:57:22,151 our our job is to take the next step, that is, 779 00:57:22,151 --> 00:57:25,251 the next, the next proposal to reform the law, or 780 00:57:25,251 --> 00:57:28,951 the following law that is believed to be contrary to 781 00:57:28,951 --> 00:57:31,484 the principles of the Internet or that we can actually 782 00:57:31,484 --> 00:57:35,084 understand you know that this is not going and in reality it is 783 00:57:35,084 --> 00:57:39,451 an attempt at censorship disguised as a norm or disguised as good 784 00:57:39,451 --> 00:57:43,484 intentions what we have to do is debate and why that 785 00:57:43,484 --> 00:57:47,518 is either contrary to the norm or contrary to rights 786 00:57:47,518 --> 00:57:50,518 humans or that it is precisely because this disguise of an 787 00:57:50,518 --> 00:57:56,618 intention of censorship. Over there it is precisely Raúl nos 788 00:57:56,618 --> 00:58:02,584 he said in his in in his question a little while ago, let's see, 789 00:58:02,584 --> 00:58:05,018 it is unknown or it is really known and it is regulated based on 790 00:58:05,018 --> 00:58:08,651 interests and needs. I'm going to tell you that it's a mixture of 791 00:58:08,651 --> 00:58:12,151 the two, right? On the one hand when something is uncomfortable 792 00:58:12,151 --> 00:58:14,651 Suddenly a regulation proposal comes out there and they 793 00:58:14,651 --> 00:58:20,418 say oh look at this we can handle it this way so that it is 794 00:58:20,418 --> 00:58:22,418 to restrict this, which is making me uncomfortable, 795 00:58:22,418 --> 00:58:26,617 but it is also true that in the proposals there is a 796 00:58:26,617 --> 00:58:30,284 profound ignorance of how it works. Internet. So it is a 797 00:58:30,284 --> 00:58:32,918 mixture of the two and the truth is that there is no worse 798 00:58:32,918 --> 00:58:36,617 mix in life that bad intentions with ignorance. 799 00:58:36,617 --> 00:58:39,384 What we have to do as users is as I comment 800 00:58:39,384 --> 00:58:41,952 on the one hand, raise your voice but raise your voice 801 00:58:41,952 --> 00:58:46,318 with arguments and say why this is contrary to X, that is, 802 00:58:46,318 --> 00:58:49,084 may be the principles of governance between may 803 00:58:49,084 --> 00:58:52,484 be human rights and so on but fairly well documented 804 00:58:52,484 --> 00:58:56,918 to say exactly why we are dissatisfied and to be 805 00:58:56,918 --> 00:59:01,017 proactive because sometimes ehh we also fall into this 806 00:59:01,017 --> 00:59:04,684 situation of extreme comfort of saying I am going to be 807 00:59:04,684 --> 00:59:07,484 against that but I am not proactive, right? I say let's see 808 00:59:07,484 --> 00:59:11,218 this is not going but this other could go or we consider that 809 00:59:11,218 --> 00:59:14,418 the best would be ehh this other alternative and we see that very 810 00:59:14,418 --> 00:59:18,684 clear in health issues that precisely when we see that 811 00:59:18,684 --> 00:59:21,218 something makes us noise because we say that this regulation 812 00:59:21,218 --> 00:59:24,151 that they are proposing in terms of cybersecurity is 813 00:59:24,151 --> 00:59:29,384 profoundly restrictive and then basically it is ehh van 814 00:59:29,384 --> 00:59:31,985 to penalize absolutely everything we do on the internet 815 00:59:31,985 --> 00:59:35,518 we are not providing an alternative for a problem that is 816 00:59:35,518 --> 00:59:39,318 what we have to do is work precisely on these 817 00:59:39,318 --> 00:59:43,817 proposals that are made from the knowledge of 818 00:59:43,817 --> 00:59:47,084 how the internet works but that allow us to solve some 819 00:59:47,084 --> 00:59:49,751 problems that do exist because not everything is honey on 820 00:59:49,751 --> 00:59:52,918 cabbage 821 00:59:52,951 --> 00:59:59,484 the topic is very interesting and and and this is for more I think 822 00:59:59,484 --> 01:00:04,951 there is something left pending out there It was not a topic anymore 823 01:00:04,951 --> 01:00:08,351 rehash, right? 824 01:00:08,951 --> 01:00:12,951 and you can 825 01:00:14,718 --> 01:00:18,418 eh, for example, they say that what the government should 826 01:00:18,418 --> 01:00:23,018 do, ehh, regarding the internet is not to interfere at all 827 01:00:23,018 --> 01:00:27,050 leave the internet completely ehh free, only while 828 01:00:27,050 --> 01:00:29,850 there are opinions that say no, if yes it has to 829 01:00:29,850 --> 01:00:33,484 take care that the internet does not become an 830 01:00:33,484 --> 01:00:37,450 instrument to commit something that is socially wrong or 831 01:00:37,450 --> 01:00:41,918 which is against the law then there are these 832 01:00:41,918 --> 01:00:45,751 two completely opposite views of the Internet, 833 01:00:45,751 --> 01:00:48,784 It is a species like the Old West, the wild west and another 834 01:00:48,784 --> 01:00:53,618 that must be controlled, regulated and more when there is 835 01:00:53,618 --> 01:00:56,918 interests of that kind of socio-political nature, right? 836 01:00:56,918 --> 01:01:02,518 This about it. Oh, not if you want to add something else or 837 01:01:02,518 --> 01:01:07,318 we end the meeting. Cynthia. . No, well, thank you very much. 838 01:01:07,318 --> 01:01:11,018 anyway thank you very much because if you start talking no longer, 839 01:01:11,018 --> 01:01:13,984 that is, they are not going to stop me, then teacher, better what we do 840 01:01:13,984 --> 01:01:17,751 is we commit to a second version or some, that is, to talk precisely 841 01:01:17,751 --> 01:01:22,284 about this issue of why mmm, that is, we should not have to 842 01:01:22,284 --> 01:01:24,684 necessarily fall into these extremes and if you want 843 01:01:24,684 --> 01:01:27,484 we can get into a matter of human rights and all this 844 01:01:27,484 --> 01:01:30,351 roll of precisely the principles of human rights 845 01:01:30,351 --> 01:01:33,384 and why they should not be exclusive one of 846 01:01:33,384 --> 01:01:36,218 others right? But if you want that, we'll leave it for a second 847 01:01:36,218 --> 01:01:40,918 version because if we don't organize another half of course 848 01:01:40,918 --> 01:01:43,918 another good internet cafe, well, thank you very much 849 01:01:43,918 --> 01:01:47,218 to the panelists, to Dr. Luis Miguel Martínez, to Dr. 850 01:01:47,218 --> 01:01:50,618 Cynthia Solís and each of the people who were kind 851 01:01:50,618 --> 01:01:54,284 enough to connect and be here participating ehh eh, 852 01:01:54,284 --> 01:01:58,818 like this attending this this second internet café panel 853 01:01:58,818 --> 01:02:02,385 organized by the Mexico Chapter of the Internet Society ah 854 01:02:02,385 --> 01:02:07,351 thank you very much greetings to all and well ehh 855 01:02:07,351 --> 01:02:11,484 goes an affectionate hug to each particularly to the 856 01:02:11,484 --> 01:02:14,818 panelists and oh soon I think that until September 857 01:02:14,818 --> 01:02:17,484 we will be organizing another event and we will 858 01:02:17,484 --> 01:02:21,084 to think about how we continue with that topic, right? Which is that 859 01:02:21,084 --> 01:02:23,250 it is very interesting and gives for much more. Thank you very much to 860 01:02:23,250 --> 01:02:29,484 everybody. See you later, thank you, good night.