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GENERAL LIBRARY
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.
THE
Hajerman Collection
OP
HISTORY AND POUTICAL SCIENCE
JAMES J. HAGERMAN OF CLASS OF '61
IN
Professor Charles Kendall Adams
IN
IM3.
HANSARD'S
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,
THIRD SERIES:
COMMBNCINO WITH THB A00BS8I0N OF
WILLIAM IV.
30« VICTORIiE, 1867.
VOL. CLXXXV.
OOUPRISINO THB PERIOD FROM
THE FIFTH DAY OF FEBRUARY 1867,
TO
THE FIFTEENTH DAY OF MARCH 1867.
^frtft ^Dlttuit t^i V^t lbe00iDn*
LONDON:
PUBLISHED BT COBNELIUS BUCK,
AT THB OFFICE FOR HANaARD'S PARLIAMSNTART BBBAfES,
SS, PATERNOSTER ROW [KC]
1867.
Lo»])o2^ : coBimjira noK, iiamESi, 2d| patebkosxsb bow»
. . I
TABLE OF CONTENTS
TO
VOLUME CLXXXV.
THIRD SERIES.
LOBDS, TITESDAT, PBBRTIART 5, 1867. Pag€
MKETING OP THE PABLIAMENT 1
The Senon of Pablumsnt opened by THE QXTESN in Penon ; The Lobd
Chascxlijob, takii^ direetion firom Hbb MuBsiTy delirered
Select Vestries—
Waa^ pro formdf read 1\
2D)iic00 to ^tt Plajetftg m fl|ec Mwi ffraciotifl Sbftt^.
Thb QuBBsr's Spbbch having been reported by The Lobb Chakoex.lob ;«-
An AddiesB to Hbb Majbbtt thereon mwed by The Earl BeaiMhamp'^{Jih»
Hotion being eeeonied by 2%e Lard Delamerej . • • . 9
After long debatOi Motion agreed to, Ifemine Dteeeniiente.
Chaibieah of CoiQiiTTEBS — Tho Lord Bedbsdalb appointedi Nemine Diseentienie,
to take the Quur in all Ck)mmittee8 of this Honse for this Seesion.
CoiocrmsE bob TaxviLEiSBa^appointed,
SuB-GomcirrEB bob thb JomaAJU^^appointed,
AmjLL CoMxiTTEE — oppoinUd,
COMMONS, TITESDAT, FEBBUABT 6.
ITew Wxns DtTBiere the Becesb • . . . . • 42
New Membbbh Swobk • . • • • . • • 43
Pbttilbsbs — Ordered, That a Committee of Priyileges be appointed.
OatlvHnies BUI—
Bin " for the more effectual preyenting Clandestine Outlawries/' read the
first time ; to be read a seoond time.
Vbw Wbi3s Issued . • . • , , • • 43
8^ Qittfn'0 Speecj^ reported — Besolution for an humble Address thereon
moved by Mr. de Oref — (the Motion being seconded by Mr. Graves) . . 48
After long debate, Motion agreed to ; and a Committee appointed to draw up
the said Address.
YOL, CLXXXV. [thibd sbbibs.] [ h *]
TABIE OF CONTENTS.
COIOIONS, WEDNESDAY, FEBBUAST 6. Pa;«
Queen's Speeoh— Befobt of Addbssb brought up, and read: — ^After short
debatOi offresd to; to hepresmted by Priyy Councillors : — ^To be eoMidered
To-morrow • • . • • • • . . . 76
Capital FuKisHinnrT— Qnestioni Mr. Hibbert ; Answer, Mr. Walpole • • 78
Finsbury Estate Bill — Ordered (Mr, Ayrttm, Mr. Loehe) ; presenUd, and read the fint
iimo [Billl] .. .. .. .. ., 78
Annuity Tax Abolition (Edinburgh, Parish of Canongate) BSSlr-Ordered
{Mr, M'Laren, Mr* Dunlop, Mr.Bcdnet) ; preiented, and read the flrsfc time [Bill 2] 79
Joint stock Companies (Voting Papers) Wl-Ordend (Mr. Daring Grifith, Mr.
Robert Torrengf Mr. Vanc€) ; preemted, and read the first time [Bill 8] • • 79
LORDS, THUBSDAY, FEBBUABY 7.
Masters and Operatives Bill— Pr^t^^i {The Lord 8L Zeonarde)]
after short debate, read 1* (No. 3) . • . • • . 79
Public Schools BiXL— Presented {The Earl of Derby) ; read 1* (No. 4) 80
AodDEMTS IN Coal Mines — Address for.
Copies of a Ciroular Letter from the Home OflBoe to, and Reports from, the Inspectors
of Mines to the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the recent Accidents
and Explosions in Coal Mines ; together with the Letter of Instruotions of 29th
January 1867, from the Secretary of State for the Home Department to Blr. Sothem
the recently appointed Inspector of Mines :— ( The Earl of £eivwre ;)^ After short
debate, a^tf{2 (0 .. .« .. •• •• 81
Traffic Begnlation (Metropolis) ma—Presented {The Earl 0/ Belmre) ; read 1*
(No. 0) •• •• •• •• •• 81
Us Pendens Bi]l—PresefUed {The Lord St. Leonards) ; read 1* (No. 6) ..81
COMMONS, THUBSDAY, FEBBUABY 7.
Inj)ia — Faionb in Obissa — Question, Mr. Waldegraye-Leslie ; Answer,
Yisconnt Cranboume . • . . . • . . 82
Mbbcantile MABiNE^Qaestion, Mr. Candlish ; Answer, Sir Stafford Northcote 83
Opening op the Session— -Access op Members to the House — Police Oedees
-—Questions, Lord Ernest Brace, Mr. Crawford ; Answer, Mr. Walpole 83
India — Indian Budget — Question, Mr. J. B. Smith; Answer, Viscount
Cranboume • • • • • . • • • • 86
H.M.S. '' Oannet " AND THE " Abouca " — Questiou, Mr. Lament; Answer,
Sir John Pakington • . • . • . • • 87
Sedsube op the ^'Tobnado" bt the Spanish Authobities — Question, Mr.
Alderman Lusk ; Answer, Lord Stanley . . . . ••• 88
Supply — Queen's Speech c^iubr«i— Motion, " That a Supply be granted to
Her Majesty : "—Committee thereupon To-morrow.
Bailway Companies' Arrangements Bill-
Motion for Lea^e {Sir Stafford Northcote) • . . . . . 89
After long debate, Motion agreed to : — BUI to make better provision for tihe
arrangement of the affairs of Bailway Companies unable to meet their
engagements, ordered {Sir Stafford Northcote, Mr, Caee^ Mr, Attorney
General) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 4.]
Shipping Local Dues Bill-
Shipping Lodal Dues considered in Committee: after short debate, a
Besolution agreed to thereon . • . , . . 108
Besolution reported : — ^Bill ordered {Sir Stafford Northcote, Mr. Cats, Mr.
Hunt) ; presented, and read the fint time [Bill 5.]
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Transubstantiatloii, &c., Declaration Abolition BUI—
TransnbBtaDtiatioii, fto., Dedaration Abolition considered in Committee:
after short debate, a Besolution agreed to thereon . . . . 109
Eesolntion reported :— Bill ordered [Sir Colman (yZoghlen, Mr. Cogan, Sir
John Oray) ; presented^ and read the first time [BiU 6.]
Offices and Oaths Bill-
Offices and Oaths considered in Committee: after debate^ a Besolution
dt^Mcl to thereon •• .. •• «• 111
BfiBolation reported i—'BiHl ordered {Sir Colman (yZofhlen, Mr. Cogan,
Sir John Cfray) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 7J
KixcHsr Airn BsnassmnKNT Booms (Hoxra« of Coxxoirs)—
gt^^w^ing nommittflfl appnimtsd and nnntinaied .. ..119
LOEDS. FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8.
Pbitilb6e — ^Fahphlet 07 Mb. R. S. Fbancb — Statement, Lord Redesdale . . 119
Hs& XAJxnrr's Absweb to the Addbbss reported • • • . 120
Royal Nayt — ^Motion for Returns —
Motion, That there be laid before the Honse,
** Rctom of the Kninber of Ships added to the Royal Nary by buildinff or purchase,
statiDgtfae Tonnage of each Vessel, from the Year 1860 to 1865 incIasiTe,"— ( TAtf
Jhike of Somerset) .. .. .. .. 120
After debate, Motion amended and agreed to.
Ordered, That there be laid before this House Return of the Number of Ships added to
the Royal Navy by building or purchase, stating the Tonnage of each Vessel, in each
Tear from the Year 1860 to 1866 inclusire :
A similar Return of all Ships, stating their Description and Tonnage, withdrawn from
the Royal Navy by Sale, Lots at Sea, or otherwise, during the same respective Years,
^ The Duke of Swnenet,)
•Pboposed Tbadeb TJbiobs Dbmovstbation on Mobday — Qnestion, The Earl of
Dadley ; Answeri The Earl of Derby -.—Short debate thereon . . 136
COMMONS, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8.
QpEEN*s Speech -*HsB Majesty's Answeb to the Addbess reported . . 144
Ibdia — Qoestion, Mr. Kinnaird ; Answer, Yisoount Cranboome . . 144
CaxxlbFlaoue nr the Meteopolis — Question, Mr. Dent; Answer, Mr. Corry 146
Cebtbal India Pbize Monet — Question, Mr. Haryey Lewis ; Answer, Yisoount
Cranboume .. ,. .. ., ..146
The Fbofessobship of the Uniyebsity of Dctblin — Question, Mr. Yance;
Answer, Mr. Walpole . . . , . . 146
OuB Monetaby Laws— Question, Mr* Watkin ; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Excheqner .. .. .. ,. ..147
The Holy See and Russia— Question, Mr. Newdegate ; Answer, Lord Stanley 147
Movedf *' That the Honse at its rising do adjourn till Monday J^
Law of Fobfettube— Question, Mr. Charles Forster; Answer, Mr. Walpole 148
Motion agreed to .---House at rising to adjourn till Monday nex}.
SiTPPLY— Order for Committee read : —
BuaiHESs OF the House— Question, Mr. Gladstone ; Answer, The Chancellor of
the Exchequer .. .. .. ..149
Supply— Committee on Motion, " That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty,"
— Queen's Speech referred : — ^Motion considered.
Beeohed^ ''That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty.''
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
IFehruary 8.] Pugs
Metropolitan Poor Bill—
Motion for Leaye {Mr. Oathome Hardy) . . • • ^ • • 150
After long debate, Motion agreed to :'-Wl for the establishment in the Me-
tropolis of Asylums for the Sick, Insane, and other classes of the Poor, and
of I)ispensaries ; and for the distribution over the Metropolis of portions
of the charge for Poor Belief; and for other purposes relating to Poor
Belief in Uie Metropolis, ordered {Mr. Gathome Hardy ^ Mr. JBarU);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 9.]
Trades Unions Bill-
Motion for Leave {Mr. Secretary WaJpole) . . . . • . 179
After long debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill for facilitating in certain cases
' the pro^edings of the Commisdoners appointed to make inquiry respecting
Trades Unions and other associations of employers or workmen, ordered
{Mr, Secretary WdlpoU, Lord John Manners, Sir Stafford Northcote.)
Criminal Law Bill-
Motion for Leave {Mr. Eusseil Oumey) . • • . • • 205
After short debate, Motion agreed to: — ^Bill to remove some defects in the ad-
ministration of the Criminal Law, ordered {Mr. RusseU Oumey, Mr.
Coleridge) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 8.] .
CoKTBOVEBTXi) ELEcnoKs — General Committee of Eleotioni appointed.
Dublin ITniversitj ProfeflSOrships Bill— RMolation in Committee : — Bill ordered
{Mr. Lamion, Mr. SuUwan) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 10] • « 206
MiKEs^Select Committee appointed,
" To inanire into the operation of the Acts for the Rejgralation and Inspection of Mines, and
Into the complaints contained in Petitions from Miners of Great Britain with reference
thereto, which were presented to the Honse during Session 1865,"— {ifr« Ayrton ;)—
(List of the Committee.)
Libel Bill— ^^'^^'^ (Sir Colman O'LoghUn, Mr. Baines) ; presented, and read the first
time [Bill 11] •• •• •• .. .. 207
LORDS, MONDAY, FEBRUARY 11.
Lakd TfiinmE (InSLAin))— Notice {The Marquess of Clanricarde) • . 207
ESTABUSHED ChUBCH (IbELAIO))—
Address for Returns from the Eoolesiastical Conunissionen of Ireland {The
Bishop of Down) . , . , . . . • 207
After short dehate, on Questioni Resolved in the Negativa.
COMMONS, MONDAY, FEBRUARY 11.
TuBiTPiKE T&usTs — Question, Mr. Enatchbull-Hugessen ; Answer, Mr. Walpole 210
BtTHHiLL Fields Buxial Gbound— Question, Mr. Crawford ,* Answer, Mr.
Walpole .. .. .. .. ••211
Railwat TBAFnc RBTvaHs^Question, Mr. Crawford; Answer, Sir Stafford
Northoote • . . . , . . . • • 212
Postal CoitHUNicAnoir with trx East — Question, Mr. Crawford; Answer,
Mr. Hunt .. .. .. .. ..212
Basbicade AEotTirp Htdb Fasx— Question, Mr. Dyce Niool ; Answer, Lord
fohn Manners . , , , . . . . • 213
FuBLio Rscoans of Ibslard— Question, Sir Rowland Blennerhasset ; Answer,
Lord Naas . , . . . . , . • . 213
Abht Estimates— Question, Captain Gridley ; Answer, General Peel . • 213
False Weights akd Measures *• Question, Lord Eustaoe Ceeil; Answer,
Mr. Walpole .. .. .. .. ..213
Tahaica— Genebal O'Conkob— Question, Mr. Gilpin; Answer, General Peel 214
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[FOnuMry 11.] Pag$
IssusBEcnov nr Gbete — Qaestioiii Mr. Oregory; Answer, Lord Stanley • • 214
tlXLlAXXSTAXt EeFOBX — ^EXFKE8EllTA!II0]r OF THE PjBOPLE<—
Fszi^graph of tlie Queen's Speech read.
Mmd, " That on the 25th of February this House will resolre itself into a
Committee of the Whole House to take into consideration the 2 & 3
Wm. lY. c. 45/'— (Ifr. Chaneelkr of the Exchequer) . . . . 214
After long debate, Motion agrnd to.
ThfoOamng are the SesohUume referred tohyihe ChaneeUor of the Sxehequer :—
This House having, in the last Session of Parliament, assented to the Second
Beading of a Bill, intituled " A Bill to extend the right of Yoting at Elections of
Members of Parliament in England and Wales," is of opinion,
1. That the number of Electors for Counties and Boroughs in England and
Wales ought to be increased.
2. That suoh increase may best be effected by both reducing the ralue of the
qualifying Tenement in Counties and Boroughs, and by adding oUier Franchises not
dqwndent on such value.
3. That, while it is desirable that a more direct Bepresentation should be
given to the labouring Class, it is contrary to the Constitution of this Bealm to give
to any one dass or interest a predominating power over the rest of the Community.
4. That the Occupation Franchise in Counties and Boroughs shall be based
upon the principle of Bating.
5. That the principle of Plurality of Votes, if adopted by Parliament, would
lidlitate the settlement of the Borough Franchise on an extensive basis.
6. That it is expedient to revise the existing Distribution of Seats.
7. That in such revision it is not expedient that any Borough now represented
in Parliament should be wholly Disfranchised.
8. That, in revising the existing Distribution of Seats, this House will ac-
knowledge, as its main consideration, the expediency of supplying Bepresentation
to places not at present represented, and which may be considered entitled to that
privilege.
9. That it is expedient that provision should be made for the better prevention
of Bribery and Corruption at Elections.
10. That it is expedient that the system of Bogistration of Voters in Counties
should be assimilated, as far as possible, to that which prevails in Boroughs.
11. That it shall be open to every Parliamentanr Elector, if he think fit, to
record his vote by means of a polling paper, duly signed and authenticated.
12. That provision be made for diminishing the distance which Voters have to
tavel lor the purpose of recordbg their votes, so that no expenditure fbr such
purpose shall hereafter be legal.
18. That a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her
MBjestj to issue a Boyal Commission to form and submit to the consideration of
Parliament a scheme for new and enlarged Boundaries of the existing Parliamentary
Boroughs where the population extends beyond the limit now assigned to such
Boroughs ; and to fix, subject to the decision of Parliament, the Boundaries of such
other Boroughs as Parliament may deem fit to be represented in this House.
Valnatioii of Property Bill-
Motion for Leave (Jtfr. jE[unt) • • . . . • 250
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill to provide for a Common basis
' of value for the purposes of Government and Local Taxation, and to pro-
mote uniformity in the assessment of Bateable Property in England,
ordered (Jtfr. Bunt, Mr. Secretary Walpole, Mr, Oathome Hardy) \
preeenkd, and read the first time [Bill.l2.]
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Fehrmrtf 11.] Page
FfiiKTiKo — Select Cohmtttee — Cost of Papers—
After short debatoi Select Committee appointed and nominoM • . 256
FuBiio Fetittoks— Select Committee appointed and nominated . . 257
LOEDS, TUESDAY, FBBEUART 12.
The Lobd Chief Babok— Petition of Rigby Wason, Esquire {Earl JRussett) 257
After long debate, on Question, That the Petition do lie on the table ?—
Beeohed in the Negative,
Appbshxnded DisTiTBBAiroEs AT Chesteb — Qucstion, Lord Stanley of Alderley;
Answer, The Earl of Derby .-. • • • • r. • 273
TrafELo Begrulation (Metropolis) Bill (No. 5)—
Mw>ed, *' That the Bill be now read 2^,**^Th$ Earl of Beltfiore) 1 . . 274
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — ^Bill read 2* accordingly, and referred
to a Select Committee,
list of the Committee . . . . • • • • 278
British North America Bill [B,L,]-~Pre$enUd (The Earl of Camarvon) ; read 1«
(No. 0) •• •• •• •• •• 278
Bale of Land l^ Auction Bill [ii,h.]-^Pre8enUd {The Lord St, Leonards) ; rwd 1*
(No. 10) .. .. •• •• •• 278
COMMONS, TUESDAY, FEBEUAET 12.
Bailwat Bills — Standibo Obobbs — Question, Sir Colman O'Loghlen ; Answer,
Colonel Wilson Patten . • . . . . . . 279
METBOPOLirAir Cabs aitd Hackbet Cabbuoe Tbabe (Metropolis)— 'Question,
Mr. Alderman Lawrence ; Answer, Mr. Walpole . . . « 280
Bbitish Tboops IB New Zealabb — Question, Mr. Oorst ; Answer, Mr.
Adderley . . . . . . . . . . 282
ScuBYT — Question, Mr. Hanbury-Tracy ; Answer, Sir Stafford Northcote . • 282
Scotch Busibess -Question, Mr. Baxter; Answer, Mr. Walpole • . 283
Eatibg abd Eebtals — Question, Mr. Bass ; Answer, Mr. Guthome Hardy . . 284
Appebhenbed Distubbabces at Chesteb — Question, Colonel French ; Answer,
Mr. Walpole .. .. .. .. 284
QfiABTS FOB FoBTiFicATioBS— Address for a Eetum {Colonel Sgkee) . . * 288
After short debate. Motion agreed to,
Artizans' and Labourers' Dwellings Bill-
Motion for Leave {Mr. M'CuUagh Torrent) • . . . . . 290
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — ^Bill to provide better Dwellings in
Towns for Artizans and Labourers, ordered {Mr, MCuUagh Torrens,
Mr, Kinnaird, Mr, Locke) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 14.]
Oommutation of Church Bates Bill—
Moved^ ^'That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the Commutation of
Church Bates,"— (Jfr. NewdegaU) . . . . . . 294
Prm>ioue Question vro^Bed, "That^t Question be now put:" — {Mr. Sad^
field:) — After short debate. Previous Question withdrawn : — ^Main Question
Sut, and agreed to,
[ ordered (^Mr, Newdegate, Colonel Stuart) \ presented^ and read the first
time [Bill 15.]
Industrial Schools (Ireland) Bill-
Motion for Leave (Jifr. Coleridge) • • . • . . 296
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill to extend the Industrial Schools
Act to Ireland, ordered {The O* Conor Don^ Mr, Monsell, Mr,Leatham)i
presented, and read the first time [Bill 17.]
TABLE OP CONTENTS.
IFelruary 12.] Page
Tests Abolition (Oxford) Bill—
Tests Abolition (Oxford) eonridered in Committee ; a Besolntion agreed to
thereon (Mr. Coleridge) . . . • • • . • 296
Resolution reported : — BiU ordered (Mr, Coleridge, Mr. Grant Duff) ; preeented,
and read ^e first time [Bill 16.]
Bailway Debenture Holders Bill-
Motion for Leave (Mr. Watkin) . . . . . . 297
After short debate. Motion Mreed to ;— Bill for affording better security to
the holders of Bailway Debentures, ordered (Mr. Watkin, Mr. Alderman
iSalonums, Mr. Zaing.)
Associations of Workmen Bill-
Motion for Leave (Mr. Neate) • . . . • • . . 299
After short debate, Motion agreed to :— Bill to exempt Associations of Work-
men from certain disabilities for a limited time, ordered (Mr. Neate, Mr.
Ihomae Sughee.)
Church Bates Abolition Bill— Onf^r^d (Hu Bardeoitle, Mr. Bainee, Mr. Trevelyan) ;
prfteti^Ml, and read the first time [Bill 1&] .. •• •• 800
Land Tenure (Ireland) 'BSH— Ordered (Sir Colman (yLoghlen, Mr. OregoTff) ; presented,
and read the first time [Bill 19] •• .. ^ •• .. 300
Metbopolitak Local Govebihisnt, &c. — Select Committee appointed, " to in-
quire into the Local €K>vemment and Local Taxation of the Metropolis,"
— (Mr. AyrUm :) — ^list of the Committee . • . . 300
COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, FEBBUART 18.
Finsbury Estate BiU [Bill l]-
Maved, " That the Bill be now read a second time,"— (l£r. Ayrton) . . 801
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " now," and at the end of the
Question to aad the words " upon this day six months/' — (Mr. Sbwee.)
After long debate, Question pu^ '' That the word ' now ' stand part of the
Question : ''—The House divided; Ayes 53, Noes 87; Majority 84: —
Words added : ^^liBiXi Question, as amended, put, and agreed to;— Bill
put off for six months,
LOBDS, THTJBSDAY, FEBEUAET 14.
BvHouaxD DisiUBBAircBS nr Ibelavb— Question, The Marquess of Glanrioaide;
Answer, The Earl of Derby • • . . , . 830
PubUc Schools BiU (No. 4)--
Moved, " That the Bill be now read 2\"-^ The Earl of Derby) . . 333
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill read 2* accordingly, and committed
to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
Of&ce of Judge in the Admiralty, Divorce, and Probate Courts Bill [h.l.}—
Fretented (The Lord ChaneeUor) ; roBdl^ (Nail) .. .. 334
Hypothec Amendment (Scotland) Bill Iji.h.y'PretenUd ( ne Lord Chancellor) ;
readl* (No. 13) .. .. .. ,. ,. 334
COMMONS, THURSDAY, FEBBTJAEY 14.
EuMomuED DxsTUBBAircis IN Ibilhtd — Question, Mr. Bruen; Answer, Mr.
Walpole ., .. • .. .. ..834
Jakaica — Lboal Pbocesdihgs AOAnrsT Offioebs— Question, Major Jervis;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer . . . . 836
Colonial Bishops— Question, Mr. Cardwell ; Answer, Mr. Adderley . • 837
RspsvsENTATioir OF THs Feoplb — ^Thb RBBOLT7Tioir8--Que6tion, Lord Robert
Montagu ; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer . • • • . 837
TABLE OP CONTENTS.
[February 14.] Page
Spain iim Chilv— Qaefition, lb. Hon&U ; Answer, Lord Stanley • . 840
Majob Pallzseb— Reward of I5tbntob8— Qnestion, Mr. Henry Baillie;
Answer, General Feel • . . . . » . , 840
Labottbers' Dweilibgs— Applioations fob Loans— Question, Mr. Goschen;
Answer, Mr. Hunt • • . • . , . . 841
Loss OF THB "Nobth"— Question, Mr. Enatchbull-Hugessen ; Answer, Sir
Stafford Northcote .. .. .. .. 342
Tboops AKD Abhs IK Chesibb Castle — ^Question, Mr. Owen Stanley; Answer,
General Feel .. .. .. .. 342
FBoxonoire ik the Natt — Question, Mr. Hanbnry-Tracy ; Answer, Sir John
Fakington .. .. .. .. ..843
DisTUBBAKCBS AT CHESTEB-^Question, Mr. Whalley ; Answer, Mr. Walpole . . 844
SueAB DuTiBs — considered in Committee — (Mr. Chaneelhr of the £»ehequer.)
After long debate, Eesolutions agreed to • . . • . . 844
Vice Preeident of the Board of Trade Bill-
Motion for Leaye (Sir Stafford Northcote) . . . • • • 359
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill for abolubing the Office of Yice
Fresident of the Board of Trade, and substituting a Secretary with a seat
in Farliament, ordered\8ir Stafford Northcote, Mr, Gave, Mr. Sunt);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 22.]
Murder Law Amendment Bill-
Motion for Leave (Mr. Walpole) . • . • . . 359
After debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill for amending the Law relating to
Murder, and for giving further protection to New-bom Children, ordered
(ifi*. Secretary Walpok, Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Solicitor General);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 25.]
Capital Punishments within Prisons BlU— Ordered (Mr. Secretary WalpoU, Mr.
Attorney Oeneral, Mr. Sdieitbr Oenerat) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 24] 870
Military at Elections (Ireland) "Bim— Ordered {Mr. Serjeant Barry, Major Esmonds,
Mr. O^Beime) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 23] . • . • 370
LORDS, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 15.
Pamphijet ov Mb. R. S. Fbanob — Personal Explanation, Lord Redesdale • . 370
DuTUXBAHcns IK iBBLAKD^Qoestion, The Earl of Shaftesbury; Answer, The
Earl of Derby • . . . . • . . 371
EicFLOTicsNT OF YoLTTNTEEBS vx CiYiL DisTnBBA.NOBs— Qaostion, Lord Yiyian ;
Answer, The Earl of Belmore : — Debate thereon • . • • 371
Ghubok or Ekolakd in thb Colonies — ^Address for Papers (The Bishop of
London) . . • . . • . . • . 878
After debate, Motion agreed to.
Baooyery of certain Debts (Sootlaad Bill [nx^y^PresenUd (The Lord ChaneeUor) ;
readl* (No. 14) .. .. .. •• •• 400
Conseeration of Chnrchyards Bill lnA.y^Pressnted (The Lord Redesdale); read 1*
(No. 15) .. •• •• •• •• 400
COMMONS, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 15.
DisTUBSAKOES IN Ibeiand— Qaostion, Mf. C. Fortesone ; Answer, Mr. Walpole 400
Mbtbobological Depa.bticent 07 THE BoABD 07 Tbade — QaestioB, Colonel
Sykes ; Answer, Sir Stafford Northoote . . . . . . 401
Cattlb PuLGin— Question, Mr. Read ; Answer, Mr. Corry . . . . 402
Coiooss^oN ON RAiLWi^TS— Qaestion, Mr. Pim ; Answer, Mr. Walpole • • 404
TABLE OP CONTEKTS.
l^Fehruary 15.] Pa^a
Yaccinatiok — Question, Hr. Bruce; Answer, Mr, Corry • • • . 404
SvALL TsNEMERTs BiiLTHTO AoT — Qaestion, Mr. A. Peel; Answer, Mr. G. Hardy 404
CoBXTTTnoir at ELEcnoirs— The Bsfobh Ebsoltttions — Question, Bir Arthur
Buller ; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer . . . . 405
Natal Yaeds — Question, Lord Robert Montagu ; Answer, Sir John Pakington 405
»
Supply — Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed,
" That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair :" —
IirsuiLBBCTioK IK Cretb — Sebyia — Amendment proposed.
To leaye oot from the word " That " to the end of the^Question^ in order to add the wordi
'' an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She wiU be graciously pleased
to gi?e direotions that there be laid before this House, Copies of any Correspondence
between the Foreign Office and Foreign Goyemments on the subject of the insurrection
in Crete and the Turkish Fortresses in Ser?ia ; and of any Reports from our Consular
Agents on these subjecti,"^l&. Gregory,) — instead thereof . . . . 406
Question proposed, " That the words proposed to he left out stand part of the
Question:" — Amendment and Motion, hy leave, mthdraum: — Committee
defirred till Monday next.
SuGAB DtniBS — ^Besolutions [February 14] reported; and, after short debate,
agreed to , , , . . . . . . . 450
DuTT OK Does — Duty on Dogs considered in Committee : after short debate,
a Eesolution agreed to thereon ; to be reported on Monday next . . 451
Execution of Deeds BHl—Ordered {Mr, Ooldney, Mr, Leeman^ Mr, Powell) ; preeented,
and read the first time [Bill 26] .. .. .. .. 452
Spiritual Destitution BHHIl-'Ordered {Mr, AyrUm, Mr, Beresford Hope) ; presented, and
read the flrit time [BiU 27] .. .. .. .. 452
LORDS, MONDAY, FEBRTJARY 18.
Fbiyilegb— Fahphlxi 07 Mb. R. S. Feavce— On Motion of Zord Eedesdale,
Ordered that Mr. R. S. France ^do attend at the Bar of this House
To'tnorrow . • • • • • • . . . 452
Habeas Cobpits SrsFXNsioir (Ibeland) Act — Questions, The Earl of Essex,
The Earl of Leitriin; Answer, The Earl of Derby . . . . 453
RoTAL Commission oir Railways — The Ibish Lines — Question, The Marquess
of Clanricarde; Answer, The Earl of Derby • • • . 457
Alimony Arrears Bill la,L,y*FretenUd { The VUcount Lifford) ; read 1* (No, 17} . , 458
COMMONS, MONDAY, FEBRUARY 18.
Abmt EsmcATEs— ObservationB, General Feel . . • • 459
iBELAKn — ^Railways — Question, Mr. W. Ormsby Gore ; Answer, Sir S. Northcote 459
The Ecclesiastical Establishment in Jamaica — Question, Mr. Baxter ;
Answer, Mr. Adderley . . . • • . • . 460
Impobtaiion of Cattle — Question, Mr. Eykyn; Answer, Mr. Corry . . 460
Ibeland— Doczs IN Cobk HABBOt7Bp*Question, Mr. Murphy ; Answer, Sir John
Faidngton • • • . . . • . ... 460
SoonAND— Sanitabt LAws^Question, Sir R. Anstruther ; Answer, Mr. Walpole 46 1
Aobicultubal Statistics — Question, Mr. M'Lagan ; Answer, Sir S. Northcote 461
Ibbland — - Watbbfobd Election — ^ Question, The O'Donoghue ; Answer,
General Feel • • • . . . . . 462
Abmt — Milttabt Stobb Defabtment— Question, Mr. Oliphant ; Answer,
Mr. Hunt • • • . . . • . . . 463
Abmt^-Cobfobal Funishment— Question, Mr. Otway ; Answer, General Feel 463
YOL. CLXXXV. [thikd sebies.] [ c ]
TABLE OP CONTEFTS.
[Fehmry 18.] P<yr#
Metbopolis — ^Fabx Lans AiTB Balkdx Stbsbt— Qaestioiii Sir Henry Winston
Barron ; Answer, Lord John Manners • . • • . . 465
B.EFBS8BKTATI0H OF THE FsoFLx — Tbz Resolotionb— Qoostion, Ifj. Sclater-
Booth ; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer . . . . 465
Stavdabds 07 Weights and Mbastjbbs— Question, Mr. Miller*; Answer, Mr.
Stephen Cave . . . . . . , . 466
Watebwobes Bill— Question, Mr. A. Egerton ; Answer, Sir Stafford Northoote 466
ExTBADiTioH OF M. LAMiBAKDE^Question, Mr. M'Cullagh Torrens ; Answer,
Lord Stanley .. .. .. .. 4^7
Abmt — QuABTEBVASTEBS OF MiLiTiA — Questiou, MsjoT WalkoT ; Answer,
General Peel . . . . . . . . 467
Rrpbesentatioe of THE Pbople — Fbanohises— Question, Mr. Baines ; Answer,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer . , • . « . 467
Theatbes, ftc— Question, Mr. O'Beime ; Answer, Mr. Walpole . . 468
Ibeland^-Chabitable BEaxTESTS-^Question, Mr. Blake ; Answer, Lord Naas 468
Ibelaitd — The Yabtbt Watebwobks — Question, Mr. Yance; Answer,
Lord Naas , . . • . . . , 469
iBELAim — Eeeiah Distubbakces nr Eebbt —-Questions, Colonel OreTille, Mr.
Bruen ; Answer, Lord Naas • . • . • • 469
Vice President of the Board of Trade Bill-
After shert debate. Bill read a second time, and cammiUed for Thursday . , 470
SuGAB Ditties —Sugar Duties eotmdered in Committee: after short debate,
a Besolution agreed to thereon ; to be reported on Wedneeday . . 472
Duty on Dogs Bill—
Besolution [February 15] reported, and, after short debate, iigreed to . . 474
Bill ordered {Mr. Dodson, Mr. Bunt, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
Supply — Order for Committee read ; Motion made, and Question proposed,
" That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair :"—
Co]QCA2n)ER Sateb's Life Boat— Question, Mr. KnatchbuU-Hugessen ;
Answer, Sir John Pakington . . . • . • 476
Mr. Statkeb, late Deputy Posticasteb Oenebal, Cavada— Question,
Mr. Childers ; Answer, Mr. Hunt • . . . *• . 479
Repbesentation 07 the People — The Besolutioks — Question, Mr. Ayrton;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer: — Long debate fhereon • • 480
Motion, " That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,'' agreed to.
SUPPLY — SuppLEKEKTABY CiYiL Sebyices 1866-7 — comidered in Committee.
(1.) £45,721, Purchase of the Blaoas Collection of Coins and Antiquities for
the British Museum . . • • . • 491
After debate, Yote agreed to.
(2.) £165,309, Boyal Palaces .. .. ..497
After debate, Yote agreed to,
(3.) £101,800, Anglo-Chinese FlotiUa . . . . . . 512
After short debate, Yote agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported on Wedneedag.
Trades UxiionB BiU [BiU 18]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time,*'— *(i&. Walpole) • . 513
After debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill read a second tune, and committed tor
Friday.
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Ffbruarif 18.] Page
Adiniralty Jurisdiction Bill—
MotioD for Leave [Sir Stafford Northeote) . . . . . . 529
Afiter dioit debate, Bill for extending and regulating the Jarisdiction of the
High Court of Admiralty, and for conferring Admiralty Juriadiotiou on
the County Courts, ord&r^ (Sir Stafford NorthcoU^ Mr. Attorney Om&ral,
Mr. Caee) \ preiented, and read the first time [Bill 28.]
Tenants Improvements (Ireland) Bill-
Motion for Leave {Lord Ifaas) . . • • • . 530
After long debate, Bill to promote the improvement of Land by occupying
Tenants in Ireland, ordered {Lord Naae, Mr, Solicitor General for Ireland) ;
preaenied, and read the first time [Bill 29.]
Land Improvement and Leasing (Ireland) B^-^Ordered {Lord NauUf Mr, Solieitor
Gerieralfar Ireland) ; presenUd, and read the first time [Bill 30] . . • . 656
Pumjc AcooiTifTs — Committee of Public Accounts nominated • • 556
Land Improvement Contracts (Ireland) Wl—Ordered (Mr. Agar-EUte, Colonel
frenchj •• •• •• •• t* 556
Land Tax Commisaionem' Names Wl^Ordered (Mr. Bunt, Mr. Chancellor of the
Eacheqaer) ; preeented, and read the first time [Bill 81] • • • • 556
LORDS, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 19.
Pinmsox — ^Ub. R. S. Fbakce's Pahphlet — Select Committee appointed , • 556
BritiBh North America Bill (No. 9)—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read 2*,"— (TA^ JSiW of Carnarvon) . . . 557
After long debate, Motion agreed to : — BUI read 2* accordingly, and cam'
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.
COMMONS, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 19.
Law of Mobtmaik — Question, Mr. Hadfield ; Answer, The Attorney General 583
CiPTAur Deslandes of th£ '' Anke "—Question, Mr. Guinness; Answer,
Sir Stafford Northcote • • . • • . . . 563
TsABK nr AiOHAis— -Qaestion, Mr. M*Lagan ; Answer, Mr. Corry • • 584
AsMT — ^Mebical Officebs of the Brigade of GuAsns — Question, Sir Robert
Anstmther ; Answer, General Peel . . . . . . 584
Oksamxttai, Watebb in the PAEKS—Question, Mr. H. B. Sheridan ; Answer,
Lord John Manners . • . . , . • . 584
lEE£.Ain>-^R£fOBic BiLL — Qucstion, Mr. Brady; Answer, Lord Naas . • 585
LrsPEcnov of Coluebibs — Question, Mr. Edwards ; Answer, Mr. Walpole . • 585
The Ship " Tobnado "^Question, Mr. Crum-Ewing; Answer, Lord Stanley 586
ScoTLAsn — FooB L^w — Question, Sir R. Anstmther ; Answer, Mr. Walpole . . 586
Cattle Plague nr Cheshibe — Question, Mr. Tollemache ; Answer, Sir Stafford
Northcote . . . . . . . • • • 586
Affaibs of Cbete — Question, Sir Harry Yemey ; Answer, Lord Stanley • • 587
D0CXTA.BDS —Resolution — Motion,
" That, in the opinion of this House, the control and management of the Dockyards is
inefllelent, and that the ineffioienoy may be attribated to the foUowing oauses :—
Ist. The constitution of the Board of Admiralty ;
2nd. The defeotire organisation of the subordinate departments ;
drd. The want of dear and weU-defined reaponsibiUty, — (3^. Seely,) •• 588
After long debate, Frecioue Queetion proposed, " That that Question be now
put,"— (6fir John PakingUm) . . . • . . 604
Alter further long debate, Previom Q^e8^ion and Motion, by leave, toithdrawn.
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Februarf/ 19.] Pag0
Mines, &c., AsBessment Bill—
Motion for Leave (Mr. Percy Wyndham) . • . • • . 649
After short debate, Bill to assess Mines, Woodlands, and Plantations to Local
Rates, ordered {Mr. Percy Wyndham^ Mr. Cavendieh Bentinck, Mr* Hen-
dereon) ; preeented, and read the first time [Bill 3d.]
Sunday Trading Bill—
Motion for Leave {Mr. Thotnas Hughes) . . . . . . 653
After short debate. Bill to amend the Laws relating to Selling and Hawking
Goods on Sunday, ordered {Mr. Thomas Hughes^ Lord Claud HamtlUm^
Sir Brook Bridges) \ presented, and read the first time [Bill 34.]
CONTBOVERTEI) ELECTIONS — GhATRKEK's PanEL , . » . 664
COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, FEBRTJARY 20.
Annuity Tax Abolition (Edinburgh, Pariah of Canongate)
Bill [Bill 2]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time," — {Mr. McLaren) . . 655
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word *' now,'' and at the end of the
Question to add the words " upon this day six months,"— (iSir James
Fergusson,)
After long debate, Question put, '' That the word < now ' stand part of the
Question : " — Ayes 74, Noes 107 ; Majority 33 : — ^Words added: — ^Main
Question, as amended, put, and agreed to : — Bill^u^ off for six months.
Division list. Ayes and Noes • • • • . • 677
Criminal Law BUI [BiU 8]—
Moved, ** That the Bill be now read a second time,'* — {Mr. Russell Ourney) 678
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill read the second time, and com'
mitted for Wednesday, 13th March.
SUPPLY— Supplementary Civil Sebvices 1866-7—
Eesolutions [February 18] reported.
Vote £600, Houses of Parliaii^ent .. •. ..681
After short debate, Vote agreed to.
Vote £50,000, XJniyerscd Exhibition at Paris . . . . 683
After short debate, Yote agreed to. '*
Eesolutions agreed to. ■
Sale and Purchase of Shares Bill— ^ -
Motion for Leave {Mr. Leeman) . . . • . . 690
After short debate. Bill to amend the Law in respect of the Sale and Purchase
of Shares in Joint Stock Banking Companies, ordered {Mr. Leeman, Mr*
Waldegrave-Leslie, Mr. Ooldney); presented, and read the first time
[Bill 38.]
Habeas Ck>rpus Suspension (Ireland) Act Continuance Bill-
Motion for Leave {I,ord Naas) . . . . . . 690
After debate. Bill ordered {Lord Naas, Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland) ;
presented, and read the first time [Bill 35.]
Railways (Guards' and Passengers' Communication BiUr-Ordered {Mr. Henry B.
Sheridan, Sir Patrick (/Brien) ; preunUd, and read the first time [BiU SO] . . 605
Marriages (Odessa) Bill— Ord^^ (Mr. Secretary WalpoU, Mr. Attorney General) ;
presented, and read the first time [Bill 40J . • • • • • 605
Criminal Lunatics Bill — Ordered {Mr. Secretary WalpoU, Mr. AUomey Oeneral) ;
presented, a.nd read ihb tni iim» [Bill 41] .. •• •• 605
Sugar Duties BSX—PresenUd, and read the first time [BiU 37] . • • • 605
Ihltj on Dogs BxHr^PresenUdt and read the first time [BiU 36] • • • • 605
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LORPS. THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 2h P0ia$
Masters and Operatives Bill (No. 8)—
Mwd, -' That the Bill be now read Vt'—[Lord St. Lsonardi) . . 696
After ahort debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill read 2* accordingly, and eom-
wUUed to a Committee of the Whole House on JWanday next.
Lis Pendens Bill (No. 6)—
Ma9^ " That the Bill be now read 2%''— (Zort^ SL Zeonarda) . . 698
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — BiU read 2* aooordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
Sale of lisnd by Auction Bill (No. 10)—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read 2%*'-^{Zord St. Leonarde) . . 700
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — ^Bill read 2* aooorduigly, and com"
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Mondag next.
Revosm — BoBOVOH QuAUjncATioH — Moved,
Thftt in the Opinion of this Hoiue, in tLBj further Scheme to amend the Reform Aot of 1883
and tnerease the Bodj of Electora, it is not desirable or neoeesary that all Boroughs
should return Memhers hj the same (^nallfloation, — (Lord Campbell) , , 701
After debate. Motion withdraum.
Mb. Filctce's Paxphlet — Select Committee namituited . • , , 7ig
PftiTATs Bills — Standing Order Committee oji^appointod and nominated • . 719
COMMONS, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21.
Ikelafd — Education Cokitissiovebb — Qaeation, Mr. Lanyon ; Answer,
Lord Naas • • . . • • • • , . 720
SooicH BusiHsss— Question, Mr. Baxter ; Answer, Mr. Walpole , , 721
QuAjuKTDrE or THS West IimiES — Qoestion, Captain Speirs ; Answer,
Mr. Adderlej .. .. .. ..721
West Iediss — Mobxalitt nr the Habboub of St. Thovas — Qaestion,
Captain Speirs ; Answer, Mr. Adderley . . . . , , 722
Jmsllbtd — Watzbjtobi) Election «— Question, The O'Donoghue ; Answer,
General Peel . • • • . . , , 723
Cattle PtAoxTB—Qaestion, Mr. Fordyce ; Answer, Mr. Corry , . 724
CorBTs or Jttstice Concentbation Act— Question, Mr. Bentinok; Answer,
Mr. Hunt • . . . • . . . . . 725
Abxt — ^Abtilleby — Stud Shot — Question, Mr. Henry Baillie ; Answer,
General Peel • . • • • . . • 725
Scotland— Education — Question, Sir Edward Colebrooke; Answer, Mr. Corry 725
Gbants to Missionabies — Question, Mr. Candlish ; Answer, Mr. Adderley 726
Lancasteb Election Cohkission Repobt — Question, Colonel Wilson Patten;
Answer, Mr. Walpole . • . . • • • . 726
Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland) Act Continuance
BiU [Bill 35]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time/' — {Zord Naae) ^ • • 727
After long debate. Motion agreed to : — ^Bill read a second time, and committed
for To-morrow.
MetropoUtan Poor BiU [Bill 9]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time,"— (i/r. Oathome Hardy) 746
After long debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill read a second time, and committer
for Thwreday, 7th March.
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
IFebrtMry 21.] Page
Duty on Dogs Bill [BUI 86]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time,"— (ifr. Hunt) . . 780
After short debate. Motion agreed to :— Bill read a second time, and com-
mittedtoT Mondaiy next.
Ballway Debenture Holders Bill [Bill 20]—
Movedf " That the Bill be now read a second time,"— (Ifr. Watkin) . . 781
After debate. Motion agreed to : — ^Bill read a second time, and committed to
a Select Committee.
List of the Committee . . . . . . 791
Church Bates Regulation BxR-^Ordered {Mr, Hubbard, Mr, Bereiford Hope) ; pre-
sented, and read the first time [BUI 42] . . • . • • 791
London Coal and Wine Dnties Continuance Bill— Rmolntion la Committee:—
Bill ordered {Mr. Dodson, Lord John Mannere, Mr, Munt) ; preeented, and read the
first time [BiU 43] .. .. .. .. 791
Lyon ITiTig of Anna (Scotland) Bill — Ordered {Sir Graham Montgomery, Mr*
Secretary Walpole, Mr, Bunt) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 44] . . 79 1
LORDS, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 22.
Heb Royal Hiohxess the Pbotcess of Wales — An humhle Address to Her
Majesty— (Wtf JSarl of Derhy)^Agreed to, Netnxne DissentierUe . . 791
Tenure of Land (Ireland) Bill—
A Bill to simplify the Law of Tenure in Jielejid-'Preeented {The Marquess of
Olanricarde :)'^Mo9ed, *' That the BiU he now read 1%"— ( The Marquess
of Olanriearde) .. .. .. .. 793
After debate, Motion agreed to : — ^Bill read 1\ and to he printed. (No. 23.)
British North America Bill (No. 9)—
Bill considered in Committee, after debate . . . . . • 804
Amendments made : The Report thereof to be received on Monday next.
Fatefcs pob the Imp&oveicekt of Small Asms — Question, Viscount LifEbrd ;
Answer, The Earl of Longford . . . . • . 807
Habeas Gobfus Suspension (Ibelakd) Act CoirmarANCE Bill — Notice {The
Ea/rl of Derby) .. .. .. ..808
COMMONS, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 22.
Sakitabt Condhion of Wales — Question, Sir Thomas Lloyd ; Answer,
Mr. Corry , , . . . . • . 809
Adhiealty Steebino and Sailing Rules — Question, Mr. Holland; Answer,
Sir John Fakington . . . . . . • • 809
Holyhead TJnion — Question, Mr. Owen Stanley; Answer, Mr. 0. Hardy . . 810
Postal Sebtice with the United States — Question, Mr. Baxter ; Answer,
Mr. Hunt .. .. .. .. ..811
PooB Law — Rating of Chabitable Institutions — Question, Mr. Biddulph ;
Answer, Mr. Earle . . . . . . . . 811
Abitt — GoTEBNMENT PowDEB MAGAZINES — Quostion, Mr. Soijeant Einglake;
Answer, General Peel • • . . . . • . 812
SuGAB Duties— Dbawbaob on Sugab — Question, Mr. Crum-Ewing; Answer,
Mr. Httnt . . . • . • . . . • 812
OOYERNHENT SuPEBINTENDENCE OF TBLEOBAFH LiNES — QuOStion, Mr. W. E.
Forster; Answer, Mr. Hunt . . • . . . 813
Ibeland— Fenian Pbisonebs — Explanation, Major Stuart Knox ; Answer,
Lord Naas . . . • • • • . . . 813
Pbincess of Wales — Addbess of Congbatulation to Heb Majsstt {Ths
Chancellor of the Exchequer) agreed to, Nemine Contradicente • . 813
TABIE OP CONTENTS.
[FOruaiy 22.] * -P^V*
SoPFLr— Order for Committee read ; Motion made,' and Qoesfcion ppopofled,
*' That Mr. Spedker do now leaye the Chair : ** —
Nsw CoiTBte GF JusncB — Amendment proposed,
To leare out from the word " That " to the end of the Question, in'order to add Ibe words
" m the opinion of this Honie, it is expedient that all amnfements respeetiog the
building of the New Courts of Jaetioe ehould be efleoted under the sole reaponsibilit/ of
Her Majest/e GoTemxnent/'— (Afr. ^end'ticilr,)— instead thereof . . . . 614
Qoestion proposed, '' That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question :" — After debate, Amendment, bj leave, withdrawn,
Qnestion again proposed, " That Mr. Speaker do now leare the Chair."
IsniA. — Thb Mahabajtah of Mtsose — Questions, Sir Henry Bawlinson,
Sir Edward Colebrooke; Answer, Yisooant Cranboame • • • • 827
AnmifisTBATiosr of thb Law — ObservationB, Sir Ronndell « Palmer ; Beply,
The Attorney General : — ^Debate thereon . . • • . • 841
REDTTCTioir OF THE Qvauficahov fob thb Electitb FBAKCHisB-^Question,
Mr. jyaihj Griffith ; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer . . 886
Afpboachbs to the HoirsEs of FABUAMEirr — Observations, Mr. D.Bromley 888
Paxis Ezhibixiok Esitdcatb— Question, Mr. Osborne ; Answer, Mr. Bruce 890
Motion, by leare, withdrawn : — Committee dsfirred till Monday next.
Habeas Corpus Suspensioxi {Ireland) Act Continuanoe Bill
[Bill 36]—
CimMered in Committee . • • • • • . • 898
A dauae added: — Bill reported; as amended, eomidered : read the third
time, and passed.
Sogar DuttoB BUI [BiU 37]--
Coueidm^ in Committee, and reported • • • • • . 904
Metropolia Gas KH^ Ordered (Sir Stafford Nartheoie, Mr, Seeret<iry TFalpote, Lord
J<Am Manners) ; presented, and read the first time [BiU 45] . . . . 904
Petit Juries drelaad) BiU— Ordered (Mr, SoUoHar Qeneralfer Ireland^ Mr, Attorney
Qeneralfor Ireland) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 46] . • • • 904
Conrt of Chancery (Ireland) Bill — Ordered (Mr, Solicitor General for Ireland, Mr,
Attorney General/or Ireland) ; presented, and read the first time [BiU 47] . . 904
Common Law Conrts (Ireland) BSU—Ordered (Mr, Solicitor General for Ireland,
Mr, Attorney General for Ireland) ; presented, and read the flnt time [BiU 48] . . 904
Charitable Donations and Bequests (Ireland) BiU— Or^f^^-^^; (Mr. Sotidtor General
for Ireland, Mr, Attorney General for Ireland) ; presented, and read the first time
[BOl 49] .. .. .. .. .. 905
Sea Coast Fisheries (Ireland) Wl-- Ordered (Mr. Blake, Colonel TotUnUam, Mr,
Brady) ; presented, and read the first time [BUI 50] . . . . 905
Counsel to the Secretary of State for India Wl— Ordered (Mr, Seiwyn, Mr,
Stolon, Mr, Colertdge) ; presented, and read the first time [BiU 51] . . . . 905
LORDS, SATTJBDAY, FEBRUARY 23.
Habeas Corpua Suapensipn (XreXand) Act Continuance Bill-
Brought from the Commons; read 1*; to \)e printed ; and to be read 2^ on
Monday next ; and Standing Orders 19'os. 37 and 38 to be considered in
order to their being dispensed with,— (2%^ EarlofDerly) (No. 24.)
LORDS, MONDAY, FEBRUARY 25.
AemcuLTTJXAL O^Kos^Qnestion, The Earl of Shaftesbury ; Answer, The Earl
of Belmore . . . . . . . , . . 906
Pbitaxb BiUiS — GaiTEGHTABns AKn CracxTEBiES — On Motion of The Earl of
Bflmore Standing Order 182 amended • , , . « ,
TABLE OP CONTENTS.
IFeiruarjf 26.] Pojfe
Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland) Act Continuance Bill
(No. 24)—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read 2*/'— (TAf JSarl of Derby) . . 908
After long debate, Motion a^r&sd to :~B111 read 2* accordingly : Committee
negatived ; Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 88 eoneidered (according to Order)
* and diepemed with : — ^Bill read 3* sud pasted.
Emplotment op Volxtktbebs in Civil Distubbances— Observations, Lord St.
Leonards; Beply, Earl De Orey and Eipon :— Debate thereon . . 919
Masters and Operatives Bill (No. 3)—
House in Committee (according to Order) . . . , . . 930
An Amendment moved {ITie Lord Cranworth) and agreed to.
Title of Bill altered to << Masters and Workmen Bill."
COMMONS, MONDAY, FEBRUARY 25.
SfBOiAL JuBoss— Questions, Mr. Whatman, Mr. Owen Stanley; Answer, The
Solicitor General . . . . . , . . 931
Sebvia — EvA.GfUATioir 07 THE FoBTBESSEs — Qucstion, Mr. Darby Griffith;
Answer, Lord Stanley . • . . . . . , 932
Jaillica. — CouBTs Mabtial on Ensiov Cullen .Ajn> SuBOEOK MoBBis— Ques-
tion, Mr. Gilpin ; Answer, Mr. Mowbray . . . . , . 933
Ibelavd — The Lobd Mayob's Bakqitet — Cabbikal Cullen — Question, Mr.
Newdegate ; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer . . . . 933
India-^Coolib Tbade is Assam — Question, Mr. Einnaird ; Answer, Viscount
Cranboume . . . . • . ' . . . . 936
Navt— The "Gbeenwich Sixpence" — Question, Mr. Trevelyan; Answer,
Sir Stafford Northcote .. .. .. ..936
Pabijamentabt Refobjc— Repbesentation of the People —
Order for Committee to consider the Act 2 & 3 Will. lY. c. 45, read.
Moved, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," — (Mr. Chancellor of
the Excheauer) . . . . . . . . 937
After long debate, Motion, by leave, mthdraum ; Committee deferred till
Thursday.
Crixninal Lunatics Bill [BUI 41]—
Bill read a second time, after short debate, and committed for ITiursday . • 993
Trades Unions Bill [BiU 18]—
Bill considered in Committee . . . . . . . . 993
And after some time spent therein, Bill reported; as amended, to be con*
sidered on Thursday. [Bill 68.]
Ibelanb — ^The Lobd Matob's BAnaiTET — Cabdinal Cullek— Observations,
Mr. Newdegate . . . . . . . . 1001
BaUway Construction FacilitieB Act (1864) Amendment BOl-- Ordered
{Mr. Whalley,Mr, WhUe) .. .. .. .. 1001
LORDS, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 26.
H. R. H. The Fbivcess of Wales — The Queek's Answer to the Address of
Friday last reported . . • . . . • • 1002
pubUc Schools BiU (No. 4)—
After short debate, Honse in Committee ; an Amendmen Imade; the Report
thereof to be receired on Monday next, and Bill to be printed as amended
(No. 29) .. •• .# •• •• 1003
• TABLE OP CONTENTS.
[Fehmr^ 26.] Pa^fi
Office of Judge in the Admiralty, Divorce, and Probate
Courts BiU (No. 11)—
M&wd, *' That the Bill be now read 2%"- [The Lord ChaneeUor) . . 1003
After debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill read 2* aocordiBgly.
Britiah North America BiU (No. 9)—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read S\"—{The Earl of Camarvm) . . 1011
An Ajnendment mwed, to leare oat (''now") and insert ("this Day
Month,")— {Zorrf CampbeU.)
After debate. Amendment withdrawn : Then the original Motion was agreed
to : Bill read 3* accordingly : Amendments made ; Bill passed, and sent to
the Commons.
COMMONS, TUESDAY, FEBRUAKT 26.
Fabuamentaut Befobv — Repbesentatiok of the People — Observations, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer •. .. •• 1021
Moved, ** That this House do now adjourn," — {Mr. Gladstone)
After short debate, Motion withdrawn.
1bel4vi> — Ekplotment 07 THE Ieish Constabulabt •— Question, The
0'Don<^hiie ; Answer, Lord Naas . . . . . . 1028
ScoTLAvn — CoLLECTOBS OF Taxes— Quostion, Mr. E. Craufurd ; Answer,
Mr. Hunt . . . . . . . . . . 1028
Stobic S1GFAI.S OF THE BoABD OF Tbade — Quostlon, Colonel Sykes ; Answer,
Sir Stafford Northcote .. .. .. .. 1029
Ibklutd— Watebfobd CoimTr Election— The 12th Lancers at Dunoabyan—
Question, Mr. Serjeant Barry ; Answer, General Peel . . . . 1080
BiOT AT Woltebhahpton — Question, Mr. Whalley ; Answer, Mr. Walpole . . 1031
H.R.H. The Pbikcxss of Wales— Her Majesty's Answer to the Address reported 1032
Abjct (India, and the Colonies) — Moved,
"Thftt a Soleofe Committee be appointed to inquire into the dutiee performed hj the British
Army in India and the Colonies ; and also to inquire how &r it might be desirable to
employ certain portions of Her Migesty's Native Indian Army in our Colonial and Mili-
tsiy Dependencies/' — {Major Anson) .. .. .. 1032
Amendment proposed, at the end of the Question, to add the words, " or to
organiEe a force of Asiatic Troops for general service in suitable climates,''
—(Ifr. ffBMly.)
Aft^ long debate, Question, "That those words be there added," put,
and agreed to .'—Words added : — Main Question, as amended, put, and
agreed to.
Select Committee appointed :^^LiBt of the Committee , , , . 1064
Attorneys, Ac., Certiflcate Duty Bill—
Motion for Leave {Mr. Denman) . . . . , « 1064
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — ^Bill to reduce the annual Duty upon
the Certificates of Attorneys and Solicitors and others, ordered {Mr.
Lenman, Mr. Vance, Sir John Ogihy) ; presented, and read the first time
[Bill 63.]
Pactoet Acts (EnircAnoirAL Clauses) — Moved,
'* That in the opinion of this House, it is expedient to extend the Educational Clauses of
the Factory Acts to children who are employed in agriculture/'~(ifr. Faiwutt) . . 1066
After long debate. Motion withdrawn.
Hypothec AboUtlon (Scotland) BiU—
Motion for Leave {Mr. Carnegie) . . , . . , 1<"
VOL. CLXXXV. * [thibd sebies.] [ d ']
TABLE OF CONTENTS. •
IFehrmrt/ 26.] Page
HypoUtec Abolition (SeaUand) BiU^coniinvied,
After abort debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill for tbe abolition of tbe Landlord's
rigbt of Hypothec in Scotland, ordered {Mr. Carnegie, Mr. Fordyce, Mr,
Edward Craufurd) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 54.]
Xetropolitan Improvements BiU—^'^^^^^ (^v- Ayrton, Mr, Tite) ; presented, and
read the first time [Bill 65] •• .. .. ,, 1089
COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, FEBRXJART 27.
Swansea Vale RaiUoay Bill {by Order) —
Bill read a second time, after short debate, and committed . . , , 1089
Ibeljln])— Bishop Mobiautt — ^Explanation, Lord Naas .• ,. 1090
Bbttish Nobth America Bill— Qaestion, Mr. Hadftold; Answer, Lord Naas 1090
Transubstantiatlon, ftc.. Declaration Abolition Bill [Bill 6]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time,"— (i9»r C. O'LoghUn) 1091
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill read a second time, and committed
for Tuesday, 12th March.
Offices and Oaths Bill [BiU 7]—
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"~(£^/r C, G'LoghUn) 1093
Amendment proposed, to leave ont the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months," — (Mr.
Newdegate.)
After long debate, Qaestion put, " That the word ' now ' stand part of the
Question: " — ^The House divided; Ayes 195, Noes 93; Majority 102 : —
Main Qaestion, put, and agreed to : — Bill read a second nme, and
committed ioT Thwsdiay, 14th March.
Division List, Ayes and Noes . • . . ..1128
Dublin University Professorships Bill [Bill 10]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time," — (Mr. Zawson) . . 1130
After short debate. Motion agreed ^o:— Bill read a second time, and committed
for To-morrotv.
Execution of Deeds Bill [Bill 26]—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read a second time," — {Mr. Goldney) . . 1133
After short debate, Motion agreed to :^Bill read a second time, and committed
for To-morrow,
Sale and Purchase of Shares Bill [Bill 38]—
Moved, '* That the BUI be now read a second time," — (Mir. Leeman) . . 1184
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " now," and at the end of the
Qaestion to add the words " upon this day six months," — {^Mr. Fildes :) —
Question proposed, '' That the word ' iiow ' stand part of the Question :"
— After debate. Debate adjourned till Tuesday next.
LOBDS. THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28.
Hjrpothec Amendment (Scotland) Bill (No. 12)—
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read . . ..1141
After short debate^ Second Reading put off till To-morrow.
COMMONS, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28.
Dogs-— Question, Sir Andrew Agnew; Answer, Mr. Walpole . . . . 1143
Paris Umiyersal Ezhibttion, 1867 — ^Enolish Jurors — Question, Viscount
Amberley ; Answer, Mr. Corry . , . . . , 1143
Navy — Libtttenaiit Brand — Question, Mr. Osborne ; Answer, Mr. Buxton . • 1143
India — CoNTRAcrr Law — Question, Mr. Einnaird ; Answer, Viscount Cran-
boume .. .. •• .» ., 1144
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
IFeinuHy 28.] Pa^e
Aiinr— Laitd Tbakspobz — Question, Captain Yiyian; Answer, Qeneral Peel 1144
SayxLAXD — Gamb Laws — Question, Mr. Fordyce; Answer, Mr. Walpole •• 1145
The "ToiorADO*' — Question, Mr. Hanbury-Tracy ; Answer, Lord Stanley ., 1145
BEroRTs OF THE B&iBERT CoMMissioxEBS — Quostiou, Captain Gridley ; Answer,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer . . . . • . 1145
TsE Bbibbkt CoMicissioNS^Question, Captain Otway ; Answer, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer . . . • . . . . 1 146
IiELiin)— Vabtkt "Waterworks Exbakxhent — Question, Mr. Fiizwilliam
Dick; Answer, Lord Naas . . . . 1146
Edttcatiok — Copy of Minute by the Lords of Her Majesty's Most Honourable
Privy Council presented [by Command] :~I>ebate thereon . . 1147
British North America Bill {Lords) [Bill 52]—
Moted^ " That the Bill be now read a second time,'' — {Mr, AdderUy) . . 1164
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — Bill read a second time, and committed
for Monday next.
Duty on Dogs Bill [Bill 36]—
Bin considered in Committee . . . . . . . , 1 196
And, after short time spent therein, Bill reported.
Sugar Duties BiU [BiU 37]—
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next • • , . 1202
Paslumentabt Refobh — Retbksektation op the People —
Ord^ for Committee to consider the Act 2 & 3 Will, lY. c. 45, read, and,
after abort debate, discharged , . . . . , 1203
Counsel to the Secretary of State for India Bill [Bill 51]—
Moc^ " That the Bill be now read a second time," — {Mr. Sehvyn) . . 1203
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " now/' and at the end of the
Question to add the words " upon this day six months," — (ifr. Serjeant
GaseUe :) — Question proposed, " That the word ' now ' stand part of the
Qneation."
After debate, Mor>ed, *' That the Debate be now adjourned," — {Mr, White:) —
The fiouse dir>ided; Ayes 34, Noes 58 ; Majority 24.
Question, " That the word * now ' stand part of the Question," put, and
agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.
Charity Funds and Estates Bill— Orefet^d {Mr. Richard Young, Mr. William Edward
Forster); presented, nadnsA the trst time [Bill fiO] •. .. 1210
LOBDS, FEIDAY, MARCH 1.
The ComrBBTED Enfield Eifle — Question, Earl Be Grey and Bipon ; Answer,
The Earl of Longford .. .. .. .. 1211
MiLiTiBT AT ELEcnoNS Df Irelans — Motiou for Papers — {The Duke of St,
Albans) . . • . • . . • . , 1213
After short debate. Motion withdrawn.
Hypothec Amendment (Scotland) Bill (No. 12)—
Moned, " That the Bill be now read 2»,"--{25te Lord Chancellor) . . 1222
After debate, on Question, agreed to : — ^Bill read 2* accordingly, and com*
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
COMMONS, FRIDAY, MARCH 1.
Gas Airn Water Bx^ls— Instruction to the Committee of Selection— (Co^o^is^
Wilson Patten) .. .. ,. .. 1228
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Mdreh 4.] Page
CRDcmAL LxTK^Tics BiLL — Order for Committee read—
MixisTEBiAL ExPLANATioNB^QaeBtioiii Mr. Osborne ; Answer, The Chancellor
of the Excheqaer . . . . . . . . 1323
Moved, "That this House do now adjourn,"— (Ifr. Oiftonw ;)— After
short debate, Motion, by leaye, mtMrawn.
Committee deferred till Thureday.
Duty on Dogs Bill [Bill 36]—
Bill cofmdered B8 waiended .. .. .. .. 1324
Further Consideration deferred till Wednesday,
Sugar Duties Bill [BiU 37]-
After short debate, Bill re'Committed for Wednesday . . . • 1326
Osrster and Mussel Fisheries Bill [Bill 61]—
After short debate, Bill read a second time, and committed for Wednesday . . 1325
Counsel to the Secretary of State for India Bill [Bill 51]—
Moved, " That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,"— (ifr. Sekoyn) . . 1326
Amendment proposed,
To leaye out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words ** this House will, upon this day six months, resoWe itself into the said Com-
mittee,"— {Mr. Serjeant (r<ue2e«,)— instead thereof
Qaestion proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the
Question : — After debate. Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn,
LORDS, TUESDAY, MARCH 6.
Their Lordships met; and having gone through the business on the Paper,
without debate, House adjourned.
COMMONS, TUESDAY, MARCH 5.
Abyssinia — Impbisovmsxt op Bjotish Subjects— Question, Mr. Darby Griffith ;
Answer, Lord Stanley , , . . . . . . 1336
M£RS£T Docks Ain> Habboub Boa.bi) Bill — Question, Mr. Tollemaohe ; Answer,
Sir Stafford Northcote .. .. .. ..1336
Lancastsb, Yabmouth, &c., Comcissiovs — Question, Mr. Otway ; Answer, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer ,. .. ..1338
Cask of the " Tobitado "—Question, Mr. Alderman Lusk; Answer, Lord
Stanley .. .. .. .. .. 1338
Cakada — IbLTEADiTioir OF M. Lahibande — Question, Mr. M'Cullagh Torrens ;
Answer, Mr. Adderley . . . . . . . . 1339
Abjoxtbnment of the House — Moved, "That the House at its rising do adjourn
till To-morrow at Two o'clock."
MnrisTEBiAL ExPLAKATioirs — (Tke Chancellor of the Exchequer :) — ^Long debate
thereon • • ' • . . . . . • . 1389
Public Bx7siN£8S — Observations .. .. .. 1370
Motion agreed to :— House at rising to adjourn till To-morrow at Two of the
dock.
•
LiiciTED LiABiLiTT AcTS — Movcd, "That a Select Committee be appointed
to inquire into the operation of the Limited Liability Acts," — (Mr,
Watkin) .. .. .. .. .. 1370
After debate, Motion agreed to.
List of the Committee • • • • . . 1387
TABLE OP CONTENTS.
[March 5.] Pa^e
Otaine Preservation (Scotland) Bill—
Motion for Leave {Mr. M^JLagan) . • . • • . 1S88
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — ^Bill to amend the Laws relating to
the preservation of Game in Scotland, ordered {Mr, M* Lagan, Sir William
Stirling-Maxwell, Mr. Fordyce) ; jpresented, and read the first time [BiU 65]
Sale and Purchase of Shares Bill [Bill 38]—
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [27th February],
'' That the Bill be now read a second time : " — Question again proposed :
— Debate resumed • . • . . . • . 1397
After debate, Question put: — The Souse divided; Ayes 86, Noes 41;
Majority 45.
Main Question put, and agreed to: — Bill read a second time, and committed
for Friday.
Execution of Deeds Bill [Bill 26]—
Order for Committee read :-^ifoi;tfe?, <<That Mr. Speaker do now leare the
Chair/' .. .. .. .. .. 1416
Amendment proposed.
To leave oat from the word ^< That " to the end of the Question, in order to add the words
** this Hoase will, upon this day six months, resoWe itself into the said Oommittee/'—
{Mr. Attorney Qeneraly) — ^instead thereof .. •• .. 1417
Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the
Question : '' — After short debate, Amendment and Motion, by leave, with-
^roM^n .'—Committee deferred till Friday, 15th March.
COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MABCH 6.
DisTusBAKCEs IK Ibeland — Quostiou, Mr. Monsell; Answer, Lord Naas . • 1418
Tests AboUtion (Oxford) BiU [Bill 16]-
Moved, '* That the Bill be now read a second time," — {Mr. Coleridge) . • 1419
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Wednesday, 10th April.
Wats akd Meaits — Eesolution in Committee — Consolidated Fund
(£369,118 6s. 6d.) .. .. .. .. 1427
LORDS, THUBSDAY, MARCH 7.
DisTUBBAKCBS IN Ireiani)— Quostion, Earl Granville; Answer, Earl Derby • . 1427
PubUc Schools BiU (No. 29)-.
Amendment rt^or^tfi (according to Order) .. .. .. 1428
After short debate, further Amendments made, and Bill to be read 3*
To-morrow.
Hjrpothec Amendment (Scotland) Bill (No. 12)—
House in Committee (according to Order) . . , . . . 1428
After short debate. Bill reported without Amendment ; Amendments made ;
House to be again in Committee on Thursday next, and Bill to be printed
as amended (No. 3d.)
Trades Unions Bill (No. 81)—
Moved, " That the BiU be now read 2»,"— (2Tte Earl of Belmore) . . 1482
After debate. Motion agreed to :— Bill read 2* accordingly, and committed to
a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
COMMONS, THURSDAY, MARCH 7.
AnmssiON of English Salt nrro F&aitcb — Question, Mr. Tollemache; An-
swer, Lord Stanley . , . , . . . . 1443
Statues op the Plantagenets at Eovteyeault— Question, Mr, Owen Stanley ;
An9wer, Lord Stanley . . • • • , . . 1444
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 7.] 2V^*
Santtabt State of HoiTirEAD-^Qaestion, Hr. Owen Stanley; Answer, Mr.
Walpole ,. .. .. ., .. 1445
Physical Fbopebties of Cholebine — Questions, Sir Jervoise Jervoise ; An-
swersi Mr. Walpola, Mr. Corry . . , , , . 1446
iBELAinH-CoxTRT OF AnMiRALTr — Qnestion, Mr. Blake; Answer, The Attor-
ney General for Ireland » : . . . . . . 1447
Eastesn Polict of Rt7S8ia — Question, Mr. Layard; Answer, Lord Stanley 1447
DisTUBBANCEs w Ibeland — Quostlon, Mr. Chichester Fortescue ; Answer, Mr. •
Walpole .. .. m *' •• •• 1^^®
SUPPLY — Aamr "EBmiAiE&'^consid^ed in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
139,168 Land Foroes (iooluding 9,778 all Ranks, to be emplojed with tha dcp6ta in the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Irchind of Regiments serving in Her Majesty's
Indian Possessions) • . . . . • . • 1 448
After long debate, Vote agreed to : — Eesolution to be reported To-morrow.
MetropoUtan Poor Bill [BiU 9]—
Bill considered in Committee . . • . . . ..1510
Bill reported ; to be printed^ as amended [Bill 66] ; re-committed for
To-morrow,
XTnilbmiity Act Amendment Bill-
Resolution in Committee — Motion for Leave {Mr. Fawcett) • • . . 1510
Resolution r^(»r^^t^: — BiU ordered {Mr, Faiocett, Mr. Bouven'e); presented,
and read the first time [Bill 68.]
"W^ATS AKD Means —
Resolution [March 6] reported and agreed to : — Consolidated Fund
(£369,118 6s. ed.)— Bill ordei-ed {Mr. Dodson, Mr. Chancellor of the
Fxehequer, Mr. Bunt) ; presented, and read the first time • . 1511
Chester Courts 'B01'~'Ordered{Earl Grosvenor,Mr. William Henry Oladstofte) ; presented^
and read the arst time [BiU69] .. .. .. .. 1511
LORDS, FRIDAY, MARCH 8.
DiSTUBBAKCKS IS InELAHD—- Quostiou, The Marquess of Clanricarde ; Answer,
The Earl of Derby .. .. .. .. 1511
Ikbubbeciiok in Crete — Motion for Papers {The Duke of Argyll) . • 1512
After long debate, Motion withdrawn.
Case of the *< Tobnado'* — Postponement of Motion {Tlie Marquess of Clan-
ricarde) . . . . , . . . . . 1544
The Militia — Question, Earl Cowpor; Answer, The Earl of Longford • . 1545
Public Schools BiU (No. 29)-
Moved, " That the Bill be now read 3%''— ( The Earl of Derhg) . . 1546
After short debate. Motion agreed to .-—Bill read 3* and passed, and sent to
the Commons.
COMMONS, FRIDAY, MARCH 8.
Mbxioo— -The Bokdholdebs— Question, Mr. Harvey Lewis ; Answer, Lord
Stanley .. .. .. .. .. 1547
Refkesentatioh op the People— Lancaster, Reioate, Totnes, Yarmouth —
Question, Mr. Serjeant Oaselee ; Answer, The Chanoellor of the
Exchequer • • . . . . . . . . 1548
DisTURBAKCBS uf Irelavd— Ths Fekiav CoHSPiRAcr — Quostion, Mr. H.
Herbert; Answer, Id^. Walpole ,. •• •• 1548
TABIX OF OONTXHTTB.
[Mareh 8.] Page
IvszA— EvGUBH "Bssnaasn ax Lib-— Qnesticm, Lord William Hay ; Answer,
Sir James FergQSSon •• .. .. .» 1549
E&17T— SiTBz Canal — Question, Sir Henry Bawlinson ; Answer, Lord Stanley 1549
Hbtropoub — OBNAXEirTAL Watbr IN Bbgent's Fabk — Question, Mr. Thomas
Chambers ; Answer, Lord John Uanners • . • . . • 1550
DisiUBBAircES m LsEiAin>— Question, Major S. Enoz ; Answer, Mr. Walpole 1550
SiTPPLT — Order for Committee read ; Motion made, and Question proposed,
''That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chur :"— -
SKPLOTHEirr OF YoLTTHTEEBs IN CiYiL DiSTUBBANOBS-— Observations, Mr. W. £.
Forater, 1550 ; Beply, Mr. Walpole : — ^Debate thereon • • • . 1562
RspsxsENiAiioN OP THE Peofle—Ministebial Abrangshents— Quostion,
Mr. Ayrton; Answer, Tha ChanpeUor of the Exchequer • • . . 1573
Ehflotment of Yolxtnteebs in Civil DisiiniBANCES— Observations, Mr.
Thomas Hughes ; Seply, The Attorney Qeaeral :— Short debate thereon 1575
Fabis TlNivEBaAL EzHiBmoN, 1867— Seaboh of Fassengebb' Baggage —
Resolution — Amendment proposed.
To leitve oat from the word " That " to the end of the Qaestion, in order to add the
words '* as the Customs ReTenne is now derived from an ezoeedingly small number
of articles, the prices of most of which in London and Paris are equal, this House
considers that no appreciable injury would be inflicted upon the income of the
Country were the present practice of the search of the baggage of traTcllers at
DoTcr, Folkestone, NewhaTen, and in London suspended daring the period of the
French Exhibition of ISeT/'-KM*. Beresfard JScig^tf,)— instead thereof •. 1581
Question proposed, '' That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question :"— After debate, Amendment, by leave, ieitMrawn,
BoTAL Ibish Agadskt — Observations, Mr. Gregory ; Beply, Hr. Hunt • . 1596
The Stbahs SEircEKEirr — Observations, Mr. O'BeiUy; Beply, Mr.
Adderley .. .. .. «« .. 1603
After debate. Motion, ''That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,"
witMrmon .'—Committee ieforred till JUtmin^ neact.
Metropolitan Poor {r^-emmiUed) BiU [Bill 66>-
Bill tfoiMufarMi in Committee^ ., •• •• ,, 1608
After debate, Committee report Progress ; to sit again upon Mmdaf next.
«
USSDR, MONDATi MABCH 11.
Olerioal VestmentB Bill-
After short debate, a Bill for better enfbroing TTniformity in the Clerical
Yestments and Ornaments to be worn by Ministers of the United Church
of England and Ireland in the Ferformanee of Publio Worship, preemted
{The Earl of Shaftesbury) read 1\ (No. 89.) . . . . 1624
Bepsesentaxion of the People— Befobx SiAnsnos^-Question, Earl Gran-
ville ; Answer, The Earl of Derby . . . . . . 1626
Bbiubh Museux— I^ATinAL HisionT CojuuionoN — Question, Lord Lyveden;
Answer, Earl Stanhope • . . . . . . . 1626
Mb. Fbakoe's Paxphlei — ^Bssoluiiok —
Beport of the Select Conmiittee on Mr. Prance's Pamphlet read • • 1627
Besolution {l%e Lord ChaneeOor) agreed to.
Bepbesertaiioh ov the People— Elbciobs sr Cans asd Bobouqhs—
Motion for PapeiB (JElir; JSiM<^ .. •• ., 1683
After debate. Motion agned to.
VOXbCLXXXY. . [tbjsj) sESiECk] [ 0 }
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
COMMONS, MONDAY, MARCH It. Pag9
Ths New National Oallebt — Question, Mr. JuHan Goldsmid; Answer, Lord
John Manners , . , . . • . . 1644
The Dutch nr Sttkatea— Question, Mr. White ; Answer, Lord Stanley . . 1645
India — Fahine in Obissa — Question, Mr. Barnes; Answer, Sir James Fer-
gusson • • • . • • • • • • 1645
The Befobx Bill — Question, Mr. Darby Oriffith; Answer, The Chancellor of
tiie Exchequer , . • . . • . • 1646
India — ^The Straits Settlement— Question, Mr. O'BeUly ; Answer, Sir James
Fergusson ., • .. .. .. 1646
Abut Estdcates — Question, Captain Vivian ; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer .. .. .. •• 1647
Ibxland — Martial Law — Question, The. ODonoghue; Answer, Mr.
Walpole .. .• .. •• .• 1647
Befresentation 07 THE People — ^Beforu Statisiigs— Question, Mr. Locke;
Answer, The Chancellor of tiie Exchequer . • . • 1648
Movedf ''That tiiis House do now adjourn/' — {Mr, Eoriman.)
After short debate. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Valuation of Property BiU [Bill 12]—
Motedf ** That the Bill be now read a second time,"»(ifr. Hunt) . . 1650
Motion agreed to : — ^BiU read a second time, and committed to a Select Com-
mittee : — List of the Committee . . . . . . 1673
Metropolitan Poor Bill [Bill 66]—
Bill 0Ofwid(9r^ in Committee on re-committal •. ., 1673
And, after long time spent therein. Bill reported; as amended, to be con-
sidered upon Wednesday.
Sugar Dntiee BiU [Bill 37]-
Bill, as amended, considered . • • . , • 1698
LOEDS, TUESDAY, MABCH 12.
Bailway TrafELc Protection Bill—
A Bill for securing the Traffic upon Railways from Interruption by the Cre-
ditors of Companies — Presented {The Lord Bcdesdale) ; and, after short
debate, read 1*" {Vo. 43) . . . . . . 1699
Becovery of Certain Debts (Scotland) Bill (No. 14)—
Moved, " That the Bill be now read 2%"— ( The Lord Chaneettor) . . 1699
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — BiU read 2* accordingly, and com- '
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursdag next.
British North America BiU (No. 38)—
Commons Amendments considered . • • . • » 1701
And, after short debate, agreed to.
COMMONS, TUESDAY, MAECH 12.
Cattle Pla.oue— Compsitsatiok fob Slaughtebed Cattle— Question, Mr. Bead;
Answer, Mr. Hunt . . . . , . . . 1702
Bepbbsentatiok of the People— Befork Statistics — Question, Mr. Lowe;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer . . • . 1702
Staltbbidge Bailwat Station— Question, Mr. Cheetham; Answer, Mr.
St^hen Cave -- . , - . . . . . . 1703
Scotland — Canongate Chubgh, Edinbttbgh— -Question, Mr. Menoreiff; An-
swer, Mr. Walpole • • • • • • • ^ 1704
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[JTml 12.] Pag$
BinwAT CoxpAHiBB AsBAVosicsNTs BiiL — QueBtioDi Ht. Fildes ; Answeri Hr.
Stq^enCaTO .. .. •• .. 1704
Qxfiird and Oambridge TTniveraltles Education Bill—
ICoiion for Lea^e {Mr. Ewart) • . • • • . 1704
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — ^Bill to open the bcoiefits of ednca*
tkm in the UniyerBities of Oxford and Cambridge to students, without
compelling them to be Uemben of a College or Hall in those TJniyersitieB,
crd^r^d (Mr, Ewart, Mr. Neate, Mr. PoUari'Urquhart.)
Fese PBOTEcnoir — Selsct Cokuittkb — Moved,
Tbak a Seleet Committee be appointed * to inquire into the existing legialatiye pro-
Tisona ibr the protection of Life and Property against Fires in the United Kingdom,
and as to the best means to be adopted for ascertaining the causes and prerenting
the Frequency of Fires/ "H^**- -V'^^Km) .. .. .. 1708
And after debate. Motion agreed to : — ^List of the Committee . • 1716
DivoscB Bills— Select Committee on Diyorce Bills nominated , , 1715
COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MAECH 13.
Idbel Bill [BiU 11]-
Moved, *'That the Bill be now read a second time,"— (Sir Cohnan ffZoghlm) 1716
After long debate, Motion agreed to : — Bill read a seoond time, and committed
to a Select Committee.
last of the Committee • . • • • • 1741
Indnstadal Schools (Ireland) BiU [Bill 17]—
Moved, ''That the BiU be now read a seoond time,"— (2%^ ff Conor Don) 1741
Amendment proposed, to leare oat the word ** now," and at the end of the
Qnestion to ^d the words " upon this day six months,"— (Mr. Peel
Ihweon:) — Question proposed, " That the word ' now ' stand part of the
Question/'
After long debate, Amendment, by lea^e, withdrawn : — ^Main Question put,
and agreed to: — ^BiU read a seoond time, and committed for Tueedaff
36th March.
Criminal Ijaw BiU [Bill 8]—
BiU «ofitM0r^ in Committee .. .. .. •• 1769
And, after some time spent therein. Committee report Progress.
Inclosare BiU — Ordered (1&*. Secretary Walpote, Mr. Himt) ; preeented^ and read the ^
first time [Bill 72] .. .. .. .. .• 1764
LOEDS, THUBSDAT, MAECH 14.
Hypothec Amendment (Scotland) BiU [h.l.] (No. 33)—
Bill referred to a Select Committee : — List of the Committee • • • • 1765
Trades Unions BiU (No. 31)—
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee on the said BiU
read , . . . • • • • • • 1765
After short debate, House in Committee ; BiU reported, without Amendment ;
Amendments made ; BiU re-committed (No. 44.)
BaUway Traflic Protection BiU (No. 43)—
Mffeed, " That the BiU be now read 2\''^{The Lord Redeedah) . . 1766
After short debate. Motion agreed to : — BiU read 2* accordingly.
EicBUiiDre Coiocissioir — Moved,
*That an homhle Address be presented to Her Migesty for, Return of the Reoommenda-
tiona of the Reomiting Commission of I860, and the Steps taken thereon/'— (TAe Earl
cf DaXheueie) .. r.. .. .. •• 1768
After long debate, Motion agreed to*
TABLE OF C0NTEKT8.
GOlfUONS, THUBSDAY, HABOH 14. Pmg^
pRiYATE Bills — ^Board of Tjelads Bxpobis — ^Motion (Ifr. 8. Owe) • • 180O
BAinfs OF MATBixoirr--Qae6tion, ITr. Honk ; Answer, The Attoniey General 180O
Pabis UwivEMAL EzHiBinoK^Qaestion, Mr. Akroyd ; Answer, Mr. Hont 1801
BBPSESEin:ATioir of ScoTLAim— Question, Colonel Sykes ; Answer, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer • • . . • • t • 1801
lB£LAin) — ^Watebfobd £LBCnov-*Question, Mr. Lawson; Answer, The Attorney
General for Ireland .. .. •• •• 1802
Gbeenwich Hospital — Question, Sir Charles Bright; Answer, Mr. Du Cane 1808
Natt— Chain Cables kstd Aitchobs— Question, Mr. Laird; Answer, Lord
Henry Lennox • . . . • • . • 1804
CoLOKT OF Bbitish Hondxtbas — Questiou, Mr. Goschen ; Answer, Mr.
Adderley , . . . . . • . • . 1806
BoABD OF Tbade Bbtttbnb— Quostion, Mr. Goschen ; Answer, Mr. S. Cave 1806
Postage to Ikdia — Question, Mr. Crawford; Answer, Mr. Hunt • • 1807
Ekgike Dbiyebs' Stbikb — Question, Mr. Thomson Hankey; Answer, Mr.
Walpole ». .. .. •• •• 1807
Supply— Order for Committee read: — ^Motion made, and Question proposed,
" That Mr. Speaker do now leaye the Chair i^ —
Ikdia, China, and AusTBALiAir Mails — Question, Mr. Childers; Answer,
Mr. Hunt .. .. .. .. .. 1807
Bepbesentatioit of the People — ^Elbotobal BrATnrncs— ObserTationSy Mr.
Locke; Beply, Mr. Oathome Hardy : — Long debate thereon • « 1809
Motion, ''That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,'' agreed to.
m
SlTBI'LY^eotmdered in Committee — ^Nayt Esidcaibs —
Statement of the Secretary of the ITavy {Lord Henry Lennox) in moying the
First Besolution—
« That 67,300 Men aod B078 be employed ibr the Sea and Coast Guard Serrloei, ftr the
year ending on the Slat day of March, 1868, inolading 16,200 Royal Marines •• 1824
After long debate. Committee report Progress ; to sit again To-morrow.
Oourt of Chancery (Ireland) Bill [BiU 47]—
Movedy ''That the Bill be now read a second time,"— (2%d Solieiiar General
for Ireland) . . . , . . . , , . 1858
^ After short debate, Motion agreed to : — ^Bill read a second time, and committed
for Thureday next.
Metropolitan Poor Bill [Bill 66]—
Moved, '* That the Bill be now read the third time,"— (Ifr. Oathome Hardy) 1861
After debate, Motion agreed to :— Bill read the third time, eoidpaeeed,
I^^on King of Arms (Scotland) Bill [Bill 44]—
After short debate. Bill read a second time . . • , • • 1867
Grand Juries (Ireland) Bill-
Motion for Leave {Mr. Peel Dawson) • . . . • . 1867
After short debate, Motion agreed to : — ^Bill '' to amend the Laws relating to
the Presentment of Public Money by Grand Juries in Ireland," ordered
(Mr. Peel Dawson, Mr. Leader, Sir C. ffLogUen, Mr. Lanyon) ; presented,
and read the first time [Bill 78.]
Bankruptcy Bill-
Motion for Leave (Mr. Attorney OeneroT) . , , • . • 1867
After long debate, Motion agreed to : — ^Bill to consolidate and amend the Acta
relating to Bankruptcy in England," ordered (Mr. Attorney General, Mr.
Secretary Walpole, Mr, SoUeitor General) ; presented, and read the first
time [Bill 74.]
TABLE OF CONXENTB.
[Mardi 14.1 JP^$
]Enx»--Seleefc Oonimtlee immwmM .* 1BS7
Judgment Delltan Wl^Order^i {Mr. AUomey Oenerai, Mr. Seertkary Wafpoi$» Mr.
SolMdor OiNiraQ ; prtfi^nttfd, and Nftd the finfc i^ •• ••1888
BMdLTttptqr Acts Sepeal Wl'-Ordered (Mr. Attcm^ Gutenl^ Mr. StcfHaary IfA'
poi«^ Jfr. S0Ml0r GVfieraO ; pr«imte<^ and imd the i^ .. 1888
LORDS, FRIDAY, UABCH 16.
TiTBKBT — ^TusxisH 7oBxiLBB8E8 vx SsRTiA— Notiee of ICotion (Ecurl Ruiidtj
withidiavxi • • • • • • # • 1888
PAHLTAincHTAgT Bbiobx — Petition of Electors of Wolyerhampton prnmUi
{SaHCHrey) .. .. .. •• 1890
Ailer long debate, Petition ^tiered to lie upon the Table.
Traific Begrolatlon (Hetrqpolia) Bill (So. 35)—
J&OMi, '' Thai the Honee do ntoLYe iteelf into a Committee on the laid
Kil,"—(Th0 Earl of Beknore) .. .. .. 1909
After short debate, Motion a^eed io : House in Committee ; Amendments
made^ Beport to be recelTed on TuMday next (No. 46.)
OOHMONS, FRIDAY, UABCH 15.
Us. Chubchvabd's AppoDmoarr— Question, ICr. Taylor ; Answer, Ur. Walpole 1914
IxiLAHB — Sauiov Fishbbixs — Question^ Ur. Blake ; Answer, The Attorney
General for Ireland ,. •• •• •• 1915
UiTBOK>LiB— -Htde Pabx— Quostion, Ur. Alderman Losk ; Answer, Lord John
Manners •• •• •. •• 1916
UzLLWAiii Ibokwobxs Coxpant — Question, Ur. Weguelin; Answer, Sir John
Pakington •• •• .. •. •• 1916
SuvFLT — Order for Committee read ; Uotion made, and Question proposed,
" That Ur. Speaker do now leaie the Chair : " —
Lm SxBmrcBs — Question, Ur. iffibbert; Answer, Mr. Walpole :-*Long
debate thereon . . • • • • • • 1918
Bbixish Taoops nr Nxw Zsalakd — Obsenrations, Ur, Gorst; Reply,
Mr. Adderley .. •• «• 1933
Smppnre Rbiubits — Obserrations, Mr. Gandlish ; Reply, Mr. B. Gave • • 1984
lBSLASi>--RAiLWAT8---BE80LUTiov----Amendment proposed,
To lesTtt <mt from the word " Thai " to the ond of the Qaestion, in order to add the words
" it is the opinion of this Honie that, with a yiew to aflbrding to IriBh Railwajrs the ftiU
rdief contemplated hj the Act of last Senion, intituled, ' The RaUwajr OompuiieB (Ire-
land) Tmnyffnrj AdTances Act, 1800/ it is expedient, under exiiting oirenmstanoei,
that the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasnrj should exeroise the powers
eonfionned on them under the fourth Section, by directing that the period within which
temporary adTances should be made be extended to the mMtmym period allowed l»
the ABt/'—iMr. B2a;te,>-instead thereof . . . . • . 1937
Question proposed, ** That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question :"— After long debate. Amendment mthdrawn.
Tloogusb Uf TBE Aairr— Amendment proposed.
To leaTc out from the word " Thaf* to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words ** this House, reserring for future consideration when requisite the question of
the exigencies of a state of war, is of opinion that it is unnecessary that the punishment
of flogging should be awarded during the time of peace to Soldiers of the Army or Corps
of Boyal Marines serring on shore,"--(iff. Oiri(M^,>— instead thereof . , 1961
After long debate* Question put:— The House divided; Ayes 107, Noes 108;
Majority 1 : — ^Words added : — Main Question, as amended, put and
agreed to.
SxrmY^£e9ohed, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the
'" of Supply.
.TABLE OF CONTENTS.
IMareh 15.1 ^V^
SUPPLY — ewmd&red in Committee^— Asinr Esidoies— Yotes on Aec&wd 1991
SiTPPLY — Navy Estdcaixs —
(28.) £1,000,000, Wages, d^o., to Seamen and ICarinee (on Account) . . *1992
After short debate. Vote agreed to.
ScTPPLY— CnriL Skbyice EsmiATES {on Account)-^
That % mm, not exoeeding £1,924,000, be granted to Her Majeity, on aoooant, for or
towards defraying the Charge of the fbUowing Cifil Servioes, to the dlst daj of
Maroh, 1868 .. .. .. .. ,, 1992
[Then the sereral Serrioes let forth at length.^
Tote agreed to : — ^Besolntions to be reported upon Monday next.
Charitable Donations and Bequests (Ireland) Bill [fiill 49]—
After short debate. Bill read a second time, and eommitted for Friday ^ 5th
April .. .. «. .. .. 1996
Xutiny Bill— Bill for panishing Mating and Desertion, and for the better pajment of the
Army and their Quarters, presenUd, and read the first time.
APPENDIX.
Speech of the Bight Hon. C. P. Yiujebb on the Second Beading of the
Metropolitan Poor Bill, Febroary 21 [a Bmeed S^torf],
Speech of the Bight Hon. C. P. Yilliebs on the Second Beading of the
ValiMtion of Property Bill, March 11 [a Booieed Beport],
LORDS.
SAT FIBST.
Thubsday, Fibbuasy 7.
The Ifarqness of Exeter, after the Death of his Father.
Fbzday, Fjbbbuaby 8.
The Lord Tyrone, after the Death of his Father.
Fbiday, Febbvaby 22.
The Duke of Brandon, after the Death of his Father.
Thubsday, Mabch 14.
The Lord Feyersham, after the Death of his Father.
COMMONS.
NEW WBITS DTJBING THE BECESS.
TUBSDAY, FbBBVABY 5.
Hb. Speaxbb acquainted the House that, during the Becess, he had issued
Warrants for New Write—
For Brecknock Borough^ v. Earl of Brecknock, now MarqacM Camden*
TTEW "WBITS BTTBINO THE BEGESB— «Mi/ifiiMf.
IbriVvyMy r. Hon. Thomas Geoige Baring, now Lord Northbiook.
For ebumUr Canad/^ (Western Diyision), o. John Bolt, Esq., Attorney Oeneral,
ForP«i5roi0 CSMdUy, v. Geoige Lort Phillipsy Esq., deoeased.
For GuiUfcrd, o. Sir William BoTill» Chief Jnstioe of the Common Pleas.
For T^fpenay, v. John Blake Dillon, Esq., deceased.
For Bdfoit, v. Sir Hngh M'Calmont Caimsy Jndge of the Court of Appeal in Chancery.
For Weafard dnrnty^ v. John Geoige, Esq., Jndge of fhe Court of Queen's Bench in
Iidand.
Fff W^imfird Gmiy, v. Earl of Tyrone, now Uarquess of Waterford.
For Armagh Ciijf, r. Bteame Ball ICller, Esq., Judge of the Court of Bankruptcy
and InsolTency in Ireland.
NEW WMTB ISSUED.
TUZSBAT, FXBXVABT 5.
For IfbrAampion CmmUf (Northern Diyision), v. Lord Burghley, now Uarquess of
Szeter.
For Ss^bft (Eastern Division), «. Sir Edward Clarenoe Eerrison, Baronet, Chiltem
Hundreds.
WSDBHDAT, FeBBUABT 6.
For Tha College of fhe Holy Trinity, Dublin, v. Bight Hon. John Edward Walsh,
ICasttf of the Bolls for Ireland.
For O^ihoay Town, v. Bight Hon. Michael Uorris, Attorney General for Irdand.
For AndouTf r. William Henry Humphery, Esq., Chiltem Hundreds.
Thubsdat, Esbxuabt 7.
ForCori County, v. George Bichard Barry, Esq., deoeased.
FSIDAT, FSBBVABT 8.
for CoUhosUr, v. Tayemer John lOller, Esq., Manor of Northstead.
Fbidat, Fbsbvabt 22.
lor York ComUy (North lEUding), v. The Hon. William Ernest Duncombe, now Lord
Eerersham.
WXDVBBDAT, FeBBVABT 27.
For Salop (Southern Diyision), v. Colonel The Hon. Percy Egerton Herbert,
Treasurer of the Household. ^
THmuDAT, Masce 7.
For Solcp (Northern Diyision), v. The Hon« Adelbert Wellington Brownlow Cust»
now Earl Brownlow.
Fbidat, Hasch 8.
For Droiiwiek, v. Bight Hon. Sir John Somerset Fakington, Baronet, Secretary of
State,
'or I^ono, V. Bight Hon. Henry Thomas Lowry Corry, First Commissioner of the
Admiralty.
For Dioon County (Northern Diyision), v. Bight Hon. Sir StaflEbrd Henry Northcote»
Baroneti Secretary of State.
For Bwtim, v. Heabuni Staniknd, esquirei Manor of Norihstead.
Tbxdat, Masch 15.
For JBrniin^don Countif, v* The Hon. Robert Montagai commonly called Lord Bobert
liontagni Yice President of the Committee of Council for Education.
NEW IIEMBEBS SWOBN.
TinsDATi Febbttabt 5«
(7fifIe^or(^Biohard Ck^th^ Esq,
Brecknock Borough — ^Howel Gwyn, Esq.
Armagh City-^JohnTsjiQe, Esq.
P#fifyfi— Jervoise Smith, Esq.
Bstfoit — Charles Lanyon, Esq.
Pemtroke CttMiit^y— James Beyan Bowen, Esq.
CSsmorrM Couni^^ — ^Hon. George Douglas Pennant.
Salop (Northern Diyision)— Hon. Adelbert Wellington Cust.
2\pperarff — Hon. Captain Charles White.
Oloueesier County (Western Diyision)— Sir John Bolt.
WxDinESDAT, Febbttabt 6.
Wexford Oounfy — ^Arihur EaTanagh, Esq.
TUESDATi FbBBUABT 12.
.^tMfovar— Sir John Burgess EarslakCi Enight.
FbzdaTi FonnrABT 15.
Northamptm County (Northern Diyision) — Sackville George Stopford, Esq.
UOHDATi FbBBVABT 18.
Duklin Vmvonity — ^Hedges Eyre Chatterton, Esq.
I Cohhoiter'-^'BAwBxd Kent Earslakei Esq.
Thttbsdat, Fbbbvabt 21.
i Oahoay Ibtm^Bight Hon. Uichael Uorris.
UoimAT, Fbbbuabt 25.
SuffM (Eastern Diyision) — ^Frederick Snowden Corrance, Esq.
UosnAT, Mabch 4.
Cork Cbim^y— Arthur Hugh Smith Barry, Esq.
ICOHDAT, lOlbH 11.
Salop (Southern Diyision)— Hon. Percy Egerton Herbert.
TubsdaTi Maboh 12.
York County (North Biding)— Hon. Octayius Duncombe.
Fbidat» Haboh 15.
Salop (Northern Diyision) — ^Yiscount Newport.
Droiiurich — ^Bight Hon. Sir John Somerset Pakington, Baronet.
THE MINISTRY.
THE OABINST.
fMLovdof thaTreMOiy • . Right Hon. Earl of Dbbbt, K.G,
Lofd CbueeUor Right Hon. Lord GHiucsroBD.
Praidflnt of the Council • . . Uig Grace the Dake of Buokmoham and CsAirDOt»K.O.
Lord Privy Seal Right Hon. Earl of Maluxsbubt, G.C.B.
Secretary of State* Home DepMiment • Right Hon. SnircxR Hobatio Walpou.
Secretary of State, Foreign Department . Right Hon. Lord Stamuet.
Secretary of State for Colonies . , • Right Hon. Earl of CiaifAaTOV.
Seeretaiy of State far War . . Right Hon. General Pibl.
Secretaiy of State lor India . • • Right Hon. Viecount CRAHBOYmn.
Ghaaedlor of the Exchequer . . . Right Hon. Bbbjaiiim Disbabli.
Ffant Lord of the Admiralty . . • flight Hon. Sir JoRBSoMBBaBYPAXiHOTOir.Bt., G.C.B.
Preaidait of the Board of Trade . . Right Hon. Sir SiArroBD Hbbbt Nortrcotb, Bt., C.B.
Cte^^^^m|^ of WoAf and Public J ^^^^ ^^^ Lo^ j^^, j^, jj^„„ Mahhbbb.
CUef GommissioDer of the Poor Law Board . Right Hon. GAiBORim Habdt.
Clg^Se«W to^ the Lord^ Uentenant | ^^^^ ^^^ j^^ j^^^
NOT IN THE CABINET.
FSeld Marahal Qommanding-in-Chief . H.R.H. the Duke of Cahbbedob, K.G.
Pestmaato' General His Grace the Duke of Montbosb, K.T.
Chancellor of the Dachy of Lancaster . Right Hod. Earl of Dbtok.
^SSf 5^/m "•' ""r ^""^y Bi«" Hon. S.»». CAT..
^'^S^^eSL^o^!"" ?' ^'^}Ri««.t Hon. H.H»T.0H- Uwnx Co«ir.
u^orth,T««n,T. . . . {^^^%^j^o^'^.s:z>7.:^r^''"
iVSce Admiral Sir Albxakdib Milbb, K.C.B., Vice
Admiral Sir Stdnbt Colpots Dacbbs, K.C.B.»
Rear Admiral Gbobgb Hbnrt Sbtmoob. C.B.»
Captain Sir Jorb Crarlbb Dalbthpub Hat, Bt.»
and Chablbb Du Cabb, Esq.
Joint Sea«UiiM of tho TroMory . . {%°~i,i™|^ ^"''*"° ''""" "^ '*'*""" ^*""
Secretary of the Admiralty • . Lord Hbbrt Gbobob Chablbs Gobdob-Lbbmox.
Secretary to the Poor Law Commissioners • Ralph Abstbutbbb Eablb, Esq.
Under Secretary, Home Department • . Right Hon. Earl of Bblmobb.
Under Secretary, Foreign Department • Edwaro Cbbistoprbb Eobbtob, Esq.
Under Secretary for Colonies . . . Right Hon. Chablbs Bowtbr Abdbblbt.
Under Seeretary for War • . • Right Hon. Earl of Lobopobd, K.C.B.
Under Secretary for IndiA • • . .Sir Jambs Fbbovssoii, Bt.
Judge AdToeate- General • . • • Right Hon. Johb Robbbt Mowbrat.
Attorney General Sir Johb Rolt, Knt.
SoliciUM- General . • • . . Sir Jorb Bobobss Kabslaxb, Knt.
SCOTLAND.
Lord Adrocate Right Hon. Gbobob Parob.
Solicitor General • • . • • Edwabd Stbathbabb Gobdob, Esq,
IRELAND.
Lord Lientenant Most Hon. Marquess of Abbbcobb, K.G. and K.St.P.
Lord Chanoellor Right Hon. Frabcis Blaoxbvbrb.
Chief Seeretary to the Lord Lientenant • Right Hon. Lord Naas.
Attorney General Right Hon. Miohabl Mobbis.
SoUdtor General • • • • • Hbdobs Etbb Chattbbtob, Esq.
QUEEN'S HOUSEHOLD.
I^rd Steward • His Grace the Duke of Mablbobougb.
Lord Chamherlain Right Hon. Earl of BaAnPOBD.
Master of the Horse .... His Grace the Duke of Bbaufobt, K.G.
Tkeasorer of the Household . . . Right Hon. Lord Bubohlbt.
Comptroller of the Household , , Right Hon. Viscount RorsroB.
Vice Chamherlain of the Household . . Right Hon. Lord Claud Hamilton.
Capiam of the Corps of Gentlemen at Arms Right Hon. Earl of Tankbbyillk.
Captain of the Teomen of the Guard • Right Hon. Earl Cadooab.
Master of the Bnckhoonds . • • . Right Hon. Lord Coltillb of CnAOSS.
Chief Equerry and Clerk Marahal . . Lord Alpbbd Hbbbt Pagbt.
MistrsM of the Robes . . Her Grace the Duchess of Wbiubmob.
TOL. CLXXXV. [thib© sbbies.] [ / ]
BOLL or THE
LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL
In trs Second Session of the Nineteenth Parlumbnt op the
United Kingdoh of Gbeat Britain and Ireland.
30o VICTORIA 1867.
Msif . — AceorJing to the Usage of Parliament, when the Houee aj^points a Select Com*
mittee, the Lords appointed to serve upon it are named in the Order of their Bank^
beginning with the Highest ; and so, when the Eouse sends a Committee to a Confer*
ence wiw the Commons, the Lord highest in Bank is called first, and the rest go
forih in like Order: But when the Whole Eouse is called over for any Purpose
within the House, or for the Purpose of proceeding forth to Westminster Hall, or upon
wmjfpvhlic Solemnity, the CaU begins invariably with the Junior Baron.
His Royal Highness The Prinoe of
Wales.
His Royal Highness Alfred Ernest
Albert Duke of Edinburgh.
His Royal Highness Oeorge Frederick
Alexander Charles Ernest Augustus
Dake of Cumberland and Teyiotdale.
{King of Hanover.)
His Royal Highness Oeorge William Fre-
derick Charles Dake of Cambridge.
Charles Thomas Archbishop of Canter-
bury.
Frederick Lord Chelmsford, Lord Chan-
cellor.
William Archbishop of Tork.
Richard Cheneyix Archbishop of Dublin.
Richard Plantagsnet Campbell Duke of
Buckingham and Chandos, Lord Presi-
dent of Ae Council.
James Howard Earl of MalmesbttrTi
Lord Privy Seal.
HxNRT Dake of Norfolk, Barl Marshal
of England.
John Winston Duke of Marlborough,
Lord Steward of the Household.
Edward Adolphus Dake of Somerset.
Charles Henrt Duke of Richmond,
WiLLLiM Henrt Duke of Grafton.
Henrt Charles Fitxboy Duke of Beau-
fort.
William Amelius Aubrey de Verb Duke
of Saint Albans.
George Godolphin Duke of Leeds,
William Duke of Bedford.
William Duke of Devonshire.
John Winston Duke of Marlborough.
(/n another Place as Lord Steward of
the Household.)
Charles Cecu John Duke of Rutland.
William Alexander Louis Stephen Duke
of Brandon. {DtJse of Hamilton.)
WiLUAM John Duke of Portland.
William Droqo Duke of Manchester.
Henry Pelham Alexander Duke of
Newcastle.
George Duke of Northumberland,
Arthur Richard Duke of Welungton,
Richard .Plantagenet Campbeu. Duke of
Buckingham and Chandos. [In another
Place as Lord President of the Council.
George Granyillb William Duke of
Sutherland.
Harry GsoRcgs Dpke of Clbybland,
ROLL OF THE L0RD3 SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL.
John Morqaess of Winchbsteb,
GsoEOB Marquess of Twxeddalb. {ElecUd
for Scotland.)
Hekrt Charles Keith Marqaess of Lanb-
DOWNE. ^
JoHH ViLLiEBS Stuabt Marquoss Towks-
HEND.
James Bbownlow William Marquess of
Salisbury.
John Alexander Marquess of Bath.
James Marquess of Abebcobn.
RicHABD Marquess of Hebtfobd.
John Patbick Marquess of Bute.
WiLUAM Alletne Marquess of Exeteb.
Chables Marquess of Northampton.
John Chables Marquess Camden.
Henbt Marquess of Anglesey.
Oeobge Hobatio Marquess of Cholmonde-
let.
Henby Weyspobd Chables Plantagenet
Marquess of Hastings.
Qeoboe William Fbedebick Marquess of
AlLESBUBY.
Oeobge Thomas John Marauess of West*
MEATH. {Elected for Ireland,)
Fbedebick William John Marquess of
Bbistol.
Abchibald Marquess of Ailsa.
RiCHABO Marquess of Westminsteb.
Geoboe Augustus Constantine Marquess
of NOBMANBY.
Oblando Geobge Chables Earl of Bbad-
FORD. {Lord Chamberlain of the
Houtehoii)
Henby John Earl of Shrewsbuby.
Edwabd Geoffbey Earl of Debby.
Fbanois Theophilus Henby Earl of
Huntingdon.
Geobge Robert Chables Earl of Pem<
bboke and Montgomeby.
•
William Reginald Earl of Devon.
Chables John Earl of Suffolk and
Bebkshibe.
Rudolph William Basil Earl of Denbigh.
Fbancis William Henry Earl of West-
morland.
George Augustus Frbderiok Albemarle
EarlofLiNDSEY.
Gborgb Harry Earl of Stamford and
Warrington.
Georgb James Earl of Winohilsea and
ITOTTINOHAM.
George Phiup Cecil Arthur Earl of
Chesterfield.
John William Earl of Sandwich.
Arthur Algernon Earl of Essex.
James Thomas Earl of Cardigan.
William George Earl of Carlisle.
Walter Francis Earl of Doncasteb.
{Duke of BuoeUuch and Queensberry,)
Anthony Earl of Shaftesbury.
Earl of Berkeley.
Montagu Earl of Abingdon.
Richabd Geobge Earl of Scabbbough.
Geobge Thomas Earl of Albemable.
Geobge William Earl of Coyentby.
ViCTOB Albbbt Geobge Earl of Jebsey.
William Hexby Earl Poulett.
Sholto John Earl of Mobton. {Elected for
Scotland.)
James Earl of Caithness. {Elected for
Scotland.) {In another Fkce ae Lord
Barroom.)
CosPATBicK Albxandeb Earl of Home.
{Elected for Scotland.)
Geobge Earl of Haddington, {Elected for
Scotland.)
David Gbaham Dbummond Earl of Aiblie.
{Elected for Scotland.)
John Thobnton Earl of Levbn and Mel-
ville. {Elected for Scotland.)
Dunbab James Earl of Selkibk. {Elected
for Scotland.)
Thomas John Earl of Obkney. {Elected
for Scotland.)
Sewallis Edwabd Earl Febbebs.
William Walteb Earl of Dabtmouth.
Chables Earl of Tankebville.
Heneage Earl of Aylesfobd.
Fbancis Thomas De Gbey Earl Cowpeb.
Philip Henby Earl Stanhope.
Thomas Augustus Wolstenholme Earl of
Macclesfield.
Geobge Wiluam Richabd Earl of Pom*
FBET.
James Earl Gbaham. {Duke of Montrose.)
William Fbedebick Earl Waldegrave.
Bebtbam Earl of Abhbubnham.
Charles Wyndbam Earl of Habbington,
Isaac Newton Earl of Pobtsmouth.
Geobge Guy Earl Bbooke and Earl of
Wabwick.
Augustus Edward Earl of Buckingham-
shire,
C/2 1
BOLL OF THE LORDS
William Thomas Sfenceb Earl Fitzwil-
LIAM.
DuDLET Francis Earl of Guilford.
Charles Philip Earl of Hardwicke.
Henbt Edward Earl of Ilchester.
George John Earl De La Warr.
WnxiAH Earl of Radnor.
John Poyntz Earl Spencer.
WtLLiAU Lennox Earl Bathurst.
Arthur Wills Blundell Sandys Trum-
bull Windsor Earl of Hillsborough,
{Marquess of Dovmshire,)
George William Frederick Earl of
Clarendon.
William Dayid Earl of Mansfield.
William Earl of AsERGATENifT.
John James Hugh Henrt Earl Strange.
(Duke ofAikol)
William Henry Earl of Mount Edo-
CUMBE.
Hugh Earl Fortescue.
Henry Howard Molyneux Earl of Car*
NARYON.
Henry Charles Earl Cadogan.
James Howard Earl of Malmesbury.
(in another Place as LwdjBrivy Seal,)
Stephen Earl of Moitnt Cashell. {Elect-
ed/or Ireland.)
Henry John Reuben Earl of Portar-
lington. {Elected far Ireland.)
Robert Earl of Mayo. {Elected for Ire-
land,)
John Earl of Erne. {Elected for Ire-
land.)
William Earl of Wicklow. {Elected for
Ireland.)
George Charles Earl of Lucan. {Elect-
ed for Ireland.)
Somerset Richard Earl of Belmore.
{Elected fw Ireland.)
Francis Earl of Bandon, {Elected for
Ireland.)
Francis Robert Earl of Rosslyn.
William Augustus Frederick Earl of
Crayen.
Arthur George Earl of Onslow.
Charles Earl of Romney.
Henry Thomas Earl of Chichester*
Thomas Earl of Wilton.
Edward James Earl of Powis.
Horatio Earl Nelson.
William Earl of Rosss. {Elected for
Ireland.)
Sydney William Herbert Earl Mantess*
Horatio Earl of Orford.
Henry Earl Grey.
William Earl of Lonsdale.
Dudley Earl of Harrowby.
Henry Thynnb Earl of Harewood.
William Hugh Earl of Minto.
Alan Frederick Earl Cathcart.
James Walter Earl of Yerulam.
John William Spencer Brownlow Earl
Brownlow.
Edward Grantille Earl of Saint Ger<
MANS.
Albert Edmund Earl of Morley.
Orlando George Charles Earl of BraD'
FORD. {In another Place as Lord
Chamberlain of the Hotisehold.)
Frederick Earl Beauchamp.
Richard Earl of Bantry. {Elected for
Ireland.)
George Frederick Samuel Earl De Grey.
John Earl of Eldon.
Richard William Penn Earl Howe.
Charles Sommers Earl Sommers.
John Edward Cornwallis Earl of Strad-
broke.
George Henry Robert Charles William
Earl Vane.
William Pitt Earl Amherst.
John Frederick Vaughan Earl Cawdor.
William George Earl of Munster.
Robert Adam Philips Haldane Earl of
Camperdown.
Thomas George Earl of Lichfield.
George Frederick D'Arcy Earl of
Durham.
Granyille George Earl Granyillb.
Henry Earl of Effingham.
Henry John Earl of Ducie.
Charles Maude Worsley Earl of Tar-
borough.
James Henry Robert Earl Innes. {Duke
of Boxbtirghe.)
Thomas William Earl of Leicester.
William Earl of Loyelace.
Thomas Earl of Zetland.
Charles George Earl of Gainsborough.
Edward Earl of Ellenborough.
Francis Charles Granyille Earl of
Ellesmere.
George Steyens Earl of Strafford.
SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL.
William John Earl of Cottevhax.
Hkhbt Richard Chaiuubs Earl Cowley.
Abghibald Williax Earl of WnrroN.
{Earl o/Bglwtaun,)
Wmuji Earl of Dudley.
JoH5 Earl Russell.
JoHir Earl of Eimberley.
RicHABD Earl of Dabtbky.
Robert Viscount Hbbefobd.
William Henry Viscount Strathallan.
(Eheiedfor Scotland.)
Hehby Viscount Bounobeoke ajtd St.
JOHK.
Stslyn Viscount Falmouth.
George Viscount Torrinotok.
Augustus Frederick Viscount Ledtster.
{Duke of Leimter.)
Jomr Robert Viscount Sydney.
Frahcis Wheler Viscount Hood.
Merttk Viscount Powerscourt. (Elected
for Ireland.)
Thomas Viscount De Vesci. {Elected for
Ireland.)
James Viscount Lifford. {Elected for Ire-
land.)
Edward Viscount Bakoor. {Elected for
Irekmd,)
£Llyes Viscount Doner aile. {Elected for
Ireland,)
CoRNWALLis Viscount Hawarden. {Elect'
ed for Ireland.)
Carnegie Robert John Viscount St.
Vincent.
Henry Viscount Melyillb.
WnjJAM Wells Viscount Sidmouth.
George Frederick Viscount Temfletown.
{Elected for Ireland.)
George Viscount Gordon. {Earl of
Aberdeen,)
Edward Viscount Exmouth.
John Luke George Viscount Hutchinson.
{Earl of Donoughmore.)
William Thomas Viscount Clanoabty.
{Earl of Clancarty,)
Wellington Henry Viscount CoMbermere.
Charles John Viscount Canterbury.
Rowland Viscount Hill.
Charles Stewart Viscount Hardinge.
Hugh Viscount Gouoh.
Stratford Viscount Stratford de Red-
cuffs.
Charles Viscount Eyersley.
Charles Viscount Haufax.
Archibald Campbell Bishop of London.
Charles Bishop of Durham.
Charles Richard Bishop of Winchester.
Henry Bishop of Exeter.
CoNNOP Bishop of St. Dayid's.
AsHHURST Turner Bishop of Chichesteb.
John Bishop of Lichfield.
Samuel Bishop of Oxford.
Thomas Vowler Bishop of St. Asafh.
James Prince Bishop of Manchester.
Renn Dickson Bishop of Hereford.
Alfred Bishop of Llandaff.
John Bishop of Lincoln.
Walter Kerr Bishop of Salisbury.
Robert John Bishop of Bath and Wells.
{In another Place as Lord Auckland,)
Robert Bishop of Ripon.
John Thomas Bishop of Norwich.
James Colquhoun Bishop of Bangor.
Joseph Cotton Bishop of Rochester.
Samuel Bishop of Carusle.
Henry Bishop of Worcester.
Charles John Bishop of Gloucester and
Bristol.
Edward Harold Bishop of Ely.
Francis Bishop of Peterborough.
Robert Bishop of Down, ConnoRi and
Dromore.
James Thomas Bishop of Ossory, Ferns,
AND Leighlin.
John Bishop of Cork, Cloyne, and Ross.
William Lennox Lascelles Lord De Ros.
Jacob Henry Delayal Lord Hastings.
George Edward Lord Audley.
Alberic Lord Willoughby de Eresby.
Thomas Crosby WauAM Lord Dacre.
Charles Henry Rolle Lord Clinton.
Thomas Lord Camoys.
Henry Lord Beaumont.
Charles Lord Stourton.
Henry William Lord Berners.
Henry Lord Willoughby de Broke.
Sackyille George Lord Conyers.
George Lord Vaux of Harrowden.
Ralph Gordon Lord Wentworth.
Edward Adolphus Ferdinand Lord
Seymour.
ROLL OF THE LORDS
St. Andrew Beauohahf Lord St. Joh5
OF Bletso.
CflARLES AuousTus Lord Howard ds
Waldek.
WniLiAH Bernard Lord Petre.
Frederick Benjamin Lord Sate and Sele.
John Francis Lord Abundell of War-
DOUR.
John Stuart Lord Clifton. {Earl of
JDamUy.)
Joseph Thaddeus Lord Dormer.
George Henry Lord Teynham.
Henrt Valentine Lord Stafford.
Georoe Anson Lord Byron.
Charles Hugh Lord Cufford of Chud«
LEIGH.
Alexander Lord Saltoun. {Elected for
Scotland.)
Charles Lord Blantyrb. {Elected for
Scotland,)
Charles John Lord Colville op Culross.
{Elected for Scotland.)
John Lord Rollo. {Elected for Scotland.)
Henry Francis Lord Polwarth. {Elected
for Scotland.)
Richard Edmund Saint Lawrence Lord
Boyle. {Earl of Cork and Orrery.)
George Lord Hay. {Earl of Kinnoul)
Henry Lord Middleton.
William John Lord Monson.
John George Brabazon Lord Ponsonby.
{Earl of Besthorough.)
George John Lord Sondes.
Alfred Nathaniel Holden Lord Scars-
dale.
George Ites Lord Boston.
George James Lord Lovel and Holland.
{Earl of Egmont.)
Augustus Henry Lord Vernon.
Edward St. Vincent Lord Digby.
George Douglas Lord Sundridgs. {Duke
of Argyll)
Edward William Lord Hawke.
Thomas Henry Lord Foley.
George Ricb Lord Dinetor.
Thomas Lord Walsingham.
WiLUAM Lord Bagot.
Charles Lord Southampton.
Fletcher Lord Grantley.
George Bridges Harley Dennett Lord
Rodney.
WiLUAM Lord Berwick.
James Henry Legge Lord Sherborne*
John Henry Db La Poer Lord Tyrone.
{Marquess of Waterford.)
Richard Lord Carleton. {Earl of Shan-
non.)
Charles Lord Suffield.
Guy Lord Dorchester.
Lloyd Lord Kenyon.
Charles Cornwalus Lord Braybrooke.
George Hamilton Lord Fisherwick. {Mar-
qtiess of Donegal.)
Henry Hall Lord Gage. ( Viscount Oage.)
Edward Thomas Lord Thurlow.
Robert John Lord Auckland. {In ano'
ther Place as Bishop of Bath and
Wells.)
George William Lord Lyttelton.
George Lord Mendip. ( Viscount Clifden.)
John Lord Stuart of Castle Stuart,
{Earl of Moray.)
Randolph Lord Stewart of Garlies.
{Earl of Oalhway.)
James George Henry Lord Saltersford.
{Earl of Courtovcn.)
William John Lord Brodrick. ( Viscount
Midleton.)
Frederick Lord Calthorpe.
Robert John Lord Carrington.
William Henry Lord Bolton.
George Lord Northwick.
Thomas Lyttleton Lord Lilford.
Thomas Lord Ribblesdale.
Edward Lord Dunsany. {Elected for
Ireland.)
Lucius Lord Inchiquin. {Elected for
Ireland),
CadwalladerDavis Lord BlAynst. {Elect*
edfor Ireland.)
Henry Lord Farnham. {Elected for Ire-
land.)
John Cavendish Lord Kilmaine. {Elected
for Ireland.)
Robert Lord Clonbrock. {Elected for
Ireland.)
Edward Lord Crofton. {Elected for Ire-
land.)
Eyre Lord Clarina. {Elected for Ire-
land.)
Henry Francis Seymour Lord Moore.
{Marquess of Drogheda,)
SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL.
I
JoHV Hekrt WsuNOTOir Gbahax Lord
L0FTU8. {Mmn^ptess of Ely.)
Gbastulb Lbtbson Lord Cartbfobt.
[Earl of Carysfori.)
GsoBox Ealfh Lord Abbbcbombt.
Jobs Thomas Lord Redesdalb.
HnrKT Pbteb Lord Ritebs.
Augustus Fbedbbick Arthub Lord San-
dys.
G20B6E Augustus Fredebick Charles
Lord Sheffield. (Earl of Sheffield.)
Thoxas Amebigus Lord Ebskine.
GsoBGE JoHX Lord MoKT Eagle. {Mar-
guess of 8ligo,)
George Abthub Hastdtgs Lord Gbahard.
{Earl of Oranard.)
Hu9[6erford Lord Crewe.
Alae Lbgge Lord Gardner.
John Thomas Lord Manners.
John Alexander Lord Hopetoun. {Earl
of Hopetoun.)
Frederick William Robert Lord Stewart
of Stewart's Court. {Marquess of
Londonderry.)
Richard Lord Castlemaine. {Elected for
Ireland.)
Charles Lord Meldrum. {Marquess of
Suntly.)
James Lord Ross. {Earl of Glasgow.)
WiLLLiM Willouohbt Lord Grinstead.
{Earl of Enniskillen,)
Whjjam Hale John Charles Lord Fox-
FORD. {Earl of Limerick,)
Francis George Lord Churchill.
George Francis Robert Lord Harris.
Charles Lord Colchester.
Whjjam ScHOMBSRa Robert Lord Eer.
{Marquess of Lothian*)
Francis Nathaniel Lord Minster. {Mar-
qness Conyngham.)
James Edward William Theobald Lord
Ormonde. {Marquess of Ormonde.)
Francis LordWEMTSs. {Earl of Wemyss.)
Robert Lord Clanbbassill. {Earl of
Boden.)
James Lord Kingston. {Earl of King-
ston.)
William Ltgon Lord Silchbsteb. {Earl
of Longford.)
CiOTWORTHT John Eyre Lord Oriel.
( Viscount Massereene.)
Hehry Thomas Lord Raybnswobth,
Hugh Lord Delamebe.
John Geobge Weld Lord Fobestzr.
John James Lord Rayleigh.
RoBEBT Fbancis Lord Giffobd.
Pebcy Ellen Fbederick Wqjjam Lord
P^NSHUBSt. ( Viscount Strangford.)
UucK John Lord Somebhill. {Marquess
of Clanriearde.)
James Lord Wioan. {Earl of Crawford
and Bdlcarres.)
Thomas Gbanyille Henry Stuart Lord
Ranfurly. {Earl of Banfurly.)
George Lord De Tabley.
Edward Montague Stuabt Granyolx
Lord Wharncliffe.
William Lord Feyersham.
John Henry Lord Tenterden.
John Lord Plunket.
William Henby Ashe Lord Heytesbuby.
Abchibald John Lord Rosebery. {Earl
of Bosebery.)
Richard Lord Clanwiluam. {Earl of
Clanwilliam.) *
Edward Lord Skelmersdale.
William Samuel Lord Wynford.
Henry Lord Brougham and Vaux.
William Henry Lord Ejlmarnocx. {Earl
ofErroll.)
Arthur James Lord Fingall. {Earl qf
Fingall.)
William Phiup Lord Sefton. {Earl of
Sefton.)
William Sydney Lord Clements. {Earl
of Leitrim.)
George Wiluam Fox Lord Rossis. {Lord
Kinnaird.)
Thomas Lord Eenlis. {Marquess of Head-
fort.)
William Lord Chaworth. {Earl of
Meath.)
Charles Adolfhus Lord Dunmore, {Earl
of Dunmore.)
Robert Montgomerie Lord Hamilton.
{Lord Belhacen and Stenton,)
John Hobabt Lord Howden.
Fox Lord Panmube. {Earl of DaXhousie.)
Augustus Fbedebick Geobge Wabwxox
Lord POLTIMOBE.
Edwabd Mostyn Lord Mostyn.
Henby Spencer Lord Temflemore.
Edward Lord Cloncurry.
John St. Vingekt Lord Ds Saumarsz.
ROLL OF THE LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL.
Lucius Bentikok Lord Hunsdon. ( Fts-
eounl FcUkland.)
Thomas Lord Denmak.
William Frederick Lord Abinger.
Philip Lord De L'Isle and Dudley.
Francis Lord Ashburton.
Edward Richard Lord Hatherton.
Archibald Brabazon Sparrow Lord
WoRLiNGHAM. {Earl of Oosford,)
William Frederick Lord Stratheden.
Edward Berkeley Lord Portman.
Thomas Alexander Lord Loyat.
William Bateman Lord Bateman.
James Molyneux Lord Charlemont.
{Earl of (Jharlemont)
Francis Alexander Lord Eintore. {Earl
of KitUore,)
George Ponsonby Lord Lismore. {VU-
count Liimore,)
Henry Cairns Lord Rossmore.
Robert Shapland Lord Carew.
Charles Frederick Ashley Cooper Lord
De Mauley.
John Lord Wrottesley.
SuDELEY Charles George Tracy Lord
Sudeley.
Frederick Henry Paul Lord Methuen.
Edward John Lord Stanley of Alderley.
Henry Lord Stuart de Decies.
William Henry Lord Leigh.
Beilby Richard Lord Wenlock.
Charles Lord Lurgan.
Ralph Lord Dunfermline.
Thomas Spring Lord Monteagle of Bran-
don.
James Lord Seaton.
Edward Arthur Wellington Lord Eeane.
John Lord Oxenfoord. {Earl of Stair.)
Charles Crespigny Lord Yitlan.
John Lord Congleton.
Denis St. George Lord Dunsandlb and
Clanconal. {Elected for Ireland.)
Victor Alexander Lord Elgin. {Earl
of Elgin and Kincardine.)
Frederick Temple Lord Clandeboye,
{Lord Dufferin and Clanehoye.)
William Henry Forester Lord Londes-
borough.
Samuel Jones Lord Oyerstone.
Charles Robert Claude Lord Truro.
Robert Monsey Lord CiuamoRTH*
John Cam Lord Brouohton.
Charles Lord De Freyne.
EdwardBurtenshaw Lord Saint Leonards.
Richard Henry Frrz«RoY Lord Raglan.
Gilbert John Lord Ateland.
Thomas Lord Eenmare. {Earl of Kev^
mare.)
Richard Bickerton Pemell Lord Lyoh8«
James Lord Wensleydale.
Edward Lord Belper.
James Lord Talbot de Malahide.
Robert Lord Ebury.
James Lord Skene. {Earl Fife.)
William George Lord Chesham.
Frederic Lord Chelmsford. {In anoiker
Place as Lord Chancellor.)
John Lord Churston.
John Chart^s Lord Strathspey. {Earl
of Seafield.)
Thomas Lord Kingsdown.
George Lord Leconfield.
WiLUAM Tatton Lord Egbrton.
Charles Morgan Robinson Lord Tredb-
GAR.
Robert Vernon Lord Lyteden.
Benjamin Lord Llanoter.
Henry Lord Taunton.
Richard Lord Westbury.
Maurice Frederick Fitzhardinge Lord
FiTZHARDINGE.
Henry Lord Annaly.
Richard Monckton Lord Houghton.
John Lord Romilly.
Thomas George Lord Northbrook.
James Lord Barrogill. {Earl of Caitk'
ness.) {In another Place ae Earl of
Caitkneis, elected for Scotland.)
Thomas Lord Clermont.
William Meredyth Lord Merbdyth.
{Lord Athlumney.)
Edwin Richard Windham Lord Eenry.
{Earl of Dunraven and Mount'Earl.)
Charles Stanley Lord Monck. ( Fucount
Monck.)
John Lord Hartismere. {Lord Benniker.)
Edward George Earle Lyiton Lord
Lytton.
William George Hylton Lord Hyltok,
Hugh Henry Lord Strathnairn.
Edward Gordon Lord Penrhyn.
GusTAYUs Frederiok Lord BaAMOEPEtSf
( ViiGOuni Boyne.)
LIST OF THE COMMONS,
LIST OF MEMBERS
RlTUBHED FBOM THE RBSPBCTIVE COTOTIES, CiTIES, TOWKS, AKD BOBOUGHS, TO SBBYl
nr THE IfiysTEBNTJB Parliament op the United Kihodom of Great Britain
AND Ireland : Amended to thb OPENma op thb Second Session on the
5th Day op Pebrfabt, 1867.
BEDFORD COUNTY.
Biehard Thomas Gilpin,
Fnada Cbarles Hastinffs
Bnssen.
BEDFOItD.
Samuel Whltbread,
William Sloart.
BERKS COUNTY.
Robert Lojd-Lindsaj,
Riehard Benjoo,
Sir Charles Russell, bt.
ABINGDON.
Hon. Charles Hagh Lindsaj.
READING.
Sir Francis Henry Gold-
smid, bl.
George John Shaw Lefevre.
WALLINGFORD,
Sir Charles Wentvrorth
DHke, bt.
WINDSOR (NEW).
Charles Edwards,
Roger Ejkjn.
BUCKINGHAM COUNTY.
Caledon George Da Pre,
Rt hon. Benjamin Disraeli,
Robert Bateson Hanrej.
ATLESBURT.
Samael George Smith,
Nathaniel Mayer de Roths-
child.
BUCKINGHAM.
Sir Harry Vemey, bt.,
John Gellibrand Hubbard.
MARLOW (GREAT).
Thomas Peers Williams,
Brownlow William Knox.
WYCOMBE (CHEPPING).
John Remington MUls,
Hon. Chftrlea Robert Oar-
ington.
CAMBRIDGE COUNTY.
Hon. (George John Manners)
Lord G. J. Manners,
Hon. Charles Philip (Yorke)
Yiseoont Royston,
Richard Young.
CAMBRIDGE.
Francis Sharp Powell,
John Eldon Gorst.
CAMBRIDGE (UNIVERSITY).
Rt. hon. Spencer Horatio
Walpole,
Charles Jasper Selwyn.
CHESTER COUNTY.
{Northern Diviston,)
Hon. Wilbraham Egerton,
George Cornwall Legh.
(Southern Dttfision.)
Sir Philip de Malpas Grey
Egerton, bt.,
John Tollemache.
BIRKENHEAD.
John Laird.
CHESTER.
Hon. Hugh Lupus (Gros*
Tenor) Earl Grosyenor,
William Henry Gladstone.
STOCKPORT.
Edward William Watkin,
John Benjamin Smith.
MACCLESFIELD.
John Brocklehurst,
EdwardChristopherEgerton.
CORNWALL COUNTY.
{Eastern Division.)
Thomas James Agar Ro-
bartes,
Nicholas Kendall.
( Western DiviKon,)
Richard Darey,
John Saint Aubyn.
TRURO.
Hon. John Craneh Walker
Vivian,
Frederick Martin Williams.
BODMIN.
Hon. Edward Frederick Le«
yeson-Gower,
James Wyld.
HELSTON.
William Balliol Brett.
LAUNCESTON.
Alexander Henry Campbell.
LISKEARD.
Sir Arthur William BuUer,
knt.
PENRYN AHi) FALMOUTH.
Samuel Gumey,
Jervoise Smith.
ST. IVES.
Henry Paull.
CUMBERLAND COUNTY
{Eastern DimstM.)
Hon. Charles Wentworth
George Howard,
William Marshall.
( Western Division.)
Henry Lowther,
Hon. Percy Soawen Wynd-
ham.
CARLISLE.
William Nicholson Hodgson,
Edmund Potter.
COCKERMOUTH.
John Steel,
Rt. hon. Richard Southwell
(Bourke) Lord Naas.
WHITEHAVEN.
George Cayendish Bentinck
DERBY COUNTY.
{Northern Division,)
Hon. (George Henry Cayen*
dish) Lord G. H. Cayen-
dish,
William Jackson.
List of
Derby Coijntt— ^on<.
{Sowthem Divman.)
Thomas William Eyans,
Charles Robert Colvile,
DERBY.
William Thomas Cox,
Michael Thomas Bass.
DEVON COUNTY.
(Northern Division.)
Sir Stafford Henry North-
cote, bt.»
Thomas Dyke AclAnd.
{Southern Division.)
Sir Lawrence Palk, bt.,
Samuel Trehawko Keke-
wich.
ASHBURTON.
Robert Jardino.
BARNSTAPLE.
Sir George Stuclcy Stuclej,
bt.,
Thomas Cave.
DARTMOUTH.
John Hardy.
DEVONPORT.
Lord Eliot,
Montagu Chambers.
EXETER.
Hon. (Edward Baldwin Cour-
tenay) Lord Courtenay,
John Duke Coleridge.
HONITON.
Alexander Dundas Ross
Wishart Baillie-Cochrane,
Julian Goldsmid.
PLYMOUTH.
Sir Robert Porrett CoUieri
knt.,
Walter Morrison.
TAVISTOCK.
Arthur John Edward Russell,
Joseph D*Aguilar Samuda.
TIVERTON.
John Walrond'Walrond,
Hon. George Denman.
TOTNES.
John Pender,
Alfred Seymour.
DORSET COUNTY.
Hon. William Henry Berke-
ley Portman,
Henry Gerard Sturt,
John Floyer.
BRIDPORT.
Thomas Alexander Mitchell,
£irkman Daniel Hodgson.
DORCHESTER.
Charles Napier Sturt,
Richard Brinsley Sheridan.
{COMMONS, 1867}
LYME REGIS.
John Wright Treeby.
POOLE.
Henry Danby Seymour,
Charles Waring.
SHAFTESBURY.
George Grenfell Glyn.
WARE HAM.
John Hales Montagu Cal-
oraft.
WETMOUTH AXD MELOOMBE
REGIS.
Robert Brooks,
Henry Gillett Gridloy.
DURHAM COUNTY.
(Northern Division.)
Sir Hed worth Williamson,
bt.,
Robert Duncombe Shafto.
( Southern Division.)
Joseph Whitwell Pease,
Charles Frevillo Surtees.
DURHAM (CITY).
John Henderson,
Rt. hon. John Robert Mow-
bray.
GATESHEAD.
Rt. hon. Sir William Hutt.
SHIELDS (SOUTH).
Robert Ingham.
SUNDERLAND.
James Hartley,
John Candlish.
ESSEX COUNTY.
(Northern Division.)
Sir Thomas Burch Weston,
bt.,
Charles Du Cane.
(Southern Division,)
Henry John Selwin,
Hon. (Eustace Henry Brown-
low Gascoygne-Cecil) Lord
E. H. B. G. Cecil.
COLCHESTER.
John Gurdon Rebow,
Tayerner John Miller.
HARWICH.
Henry Jervis White-Jervis,
John Eelk.
MALDON.
George Montagu Warren
Peacocke,
Ralph Anstruther Earle.
GLOUCESTER COUNTY.
(Eastern Division. )
Robert Sfttyner Holford,
Sir Michael Edward Hicka-
Beachf bt.
Meiribers.
Gloucbstbb Couhtt — eont.
( Western Division,)
Robert Nigel Fitzhardinge
Eingscote,
Sir John Rolt, knt.
CHELTENHAM.
Charles Schreiber.
CIRENCESTER.
Allen Alexander Bathurst,
Hon. Ralph Heneage But-
ton.
GLOUCESTER.
William Philip Price,
Charles James Monck.
STROUD.
Rt. hon. Edward Horsman,
George Poulett Scrope.
TEWKESBURY.
John Reginald Yorke,
Sir Edmund Anthony Har-
ley Lechmere, bt.
HEREFORD COUNTY.
James King King,
Sir Joseph Russell Bailey^
bt.,
Michael Biddulph.
HEREFORD.
Richard Baggally,
George Cli?e.
LEOMINSTER.
Arthur Walsh,
Richard Arkwright.
HERTFORD COUNTY.
Hon. Henry Frederick Cow-
per,
Henry Edward Surtees,
Abel Smith.
HERTFORD.
Rt. hon. William Francis
Cowper,
Robert Dimsdale.
HUNTINGDON COUNTY.
Edward Fellowes,
Hon. (Robert^ Montagu)
Lord R. Montagu.
HUNTINGDON.
Thomas Baring,
Rt. hon. Jonathan PeeL
KENT COUNTY.
(Eastern Division.)
Sir Brook William BridgeSf
bt.,
Sir Edward Cholmeley
Bering, bt.
< Western Division,)
Hon. (William Archer) Vis«
oount Holmesdale,
WUliam Hart Dyke.
LUtof
CANTERBURY.
Hennr Alexander Butler-
Johnstone,
John Walter Huddleston.
CHATHAM.
Arthur John Otwaj.
GREENWICH.
David Salomona,
Sir Charles Tiiston Bright,
hnt.
MAn)STONE.
Wnfiam Lee,
James Whatman.
ROCHESTER.
Philip Wjkeham Martin,
John Alexander Kinglake.
LANCASTER COUNTY.
(iVbpt&ent I>«nnoii.)
John Wilson Patten,
Bt. bon. Spencer Compton
(Cayendish) Ifarqness of
HartingtoD.
{SmOktm DioisioH,)
Hon. Algernon Fulke Eger-
ton,
Charles Tarner,
Bt. Hon. William Ewart
Gladstone.
LANCASTER.
Edward Matthew Fen wick,
Heorj William Schneider.
ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE.
Bt. hon. Thomas Milner
Gihson.
BLACKBURN.
WiOiam Henrj Hornbj,
Joseph Feilden.
BOLTON-LE-MOORS.
William Gray,
Thomas Barnes.
BURY.
Robert Needham Philips.
CLITHEROE.
Richard Fort.
LIVERPOOL.
Thomas Berry Horsfall,
Samnel Robert Grares.
MANCHESTER.
Thomas Basley,
Edward James.
OLDHAM.
John Tomlinson Hibbert,
Jdin Piatt.
PRESTON.
Sir Thomas George Hes-
keth, bt.,
Hon. Frederick Arthur
Stanley,
{COMMONS 1867}
ROCHDALE.
Thomas Bajley Potter.
SALFORD.
John Cheetham.
WARRINGTON.
GUbert Greenall.
WIGAN.
Henry Woods,
Nathaniel Eokorsley.
LEICESTER COUNTY.
{Northern DUnaion.)
Rt. hon. (John James Robert
Manners) Lord J. J. R.
Manners,
Edward Bourchicr Hartopp.
(SmUhaii Dimiifm.)
Charles William Packe,
Hon. George Augastus Fre-
derick Louis (Carson*
Howe) Yisconnt Carson,
LEICESTER.
John Dove Harris,
Petor Alfred Tajlor.
LINCOLN COUNTY.
{Part$o/Lind$ey.)
James Banks Stanhope,
Sir Montague John Cholme-
ley, bt.
{PartM ofKetteven and Holland.)
Rt. hon. Sir John Trol-
lope, bt.,
George Hussey Packe.
LINCOLN.
Charles Seely,
Edward Heneage.
BOSTON.
John Wingfieid Malcolm,
Meaburn Staniland.
GRANTHAM.
John Henry Tborold,
William Earle Welby.
GRIMSBY (GREAT).
John Fildes.
STAMFORD.
Hon. (Robert Talbot Gas-
coyne - Cecil) Yiscouot
Cranbourne,
Sir John Charles Dalrym-.
pie Hay, bt.
MIDDLESEX COUNTY.
Robert Culling Hanbury,
Hon. George Henry Charles
(Byng) Viscount Eufield.
FINSBURT.
William Torrens M'Cnllagh
Torrens,
Andrew Losk.
Mmheri,
LONDON.
Rt. hon. George Joaohim
Ooaehen,
Robert Wygram Crawford^
William Lawrence,
Baron Lionel Nathan De
Rothschild.
MARTLEBONE.
John Harvey Lewis,
Thomas Chambers.
TOWER HAMLETS.
Charles Salisbury Butler,
Acton Smee Ayrton.
WESTMINSTER.
Hon. Robert Wellesley Oros-
Tenor,
John Stuart Mill.
MONMOUTH COUNTY.
Charles Octayins Swinnor-
ton Morgan,
Poulett George Henry So<-
merset.
MONMOUTH.
Crawshay Bailey.
NORFOLK COUNTY,
(Eastern I}iv%$ion»)
Edward Howes,
Clare Sewell Read.
( Western DivieUm, )
William Bagge,
Hon. Thomas Do Orey.
KING'S LYNN.
Rt. hon. Edward (Stanley)
Lord Stanley,
Sir Thomas Fowell Buxton,
bt.
NORWICH.
Sir William Russell, bt,
Edward Warner.
THETFORD.
Robert John Harrey-Har-
▼ey,
Hon. Alexander Hugh
Baring.
YARMOUTH (GREAT).
Sir Edmund Henry Knowles
Lacon, bt.,
James Goodson.
NORTHAMPTON
COUNTY.
(Northern Divieum.)
George Ward Hunt,
(Southern DUfieion.)
Sir Rainald Knightley, bt.,
Henry Cartwright.
PETERBOROUGH. .
George Hammond Whalley,
Thomson Hankey.
List of
NORTHAMPTON,
Charles Gilpin,
Rt. hon. ADthony (Henlej)
Lord Henley*
NORTHUMBERLAND
COUNTY.
{Northern Division.)
Hon. (Henry Hugh Manvers
Percy) Lord H. H. M.
Percy,
Sir Matthew White Ridley,
bt.
{Southern Division,)
Wentworth Blackett Beau-
mont,
Hon. Henry George Liddell.
MORPETH.
Rt. hon. Sir George Grey.ht.
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE.
Joseph Cowen,
Rt. hon. Thomas Emerson
Headlam.
TYNEMOUTH.
George Otto Trerelyan.
NOTTINGHAM COUNTY.
{Northern Division,)
Rt. hon. John Evelyn De-
nison,
Hon. (Edward William Pel-
ham-CIinton) Lord E. W.
Pelham-Clinton.
{Southern Division.)
William Hodgson Barrow,
Thomas Blackborne Thoro-
ton Hildy&rd.
NEWARK-UPON-TRENT.
Grosvenor Hodgkinson,
Hon. Arthur (Pelham-Clin-
ton) Lord A. Pelham-
Clinton.
NOTTINGHAM.
Ralph Bernal Osborne,
Viscount Amberley.
RETFORD (EAST.)
Rt. hon. George Edward
Arundell (Monckton-A-
rundell) Viscount Galway,
Francis John Sayile Fol-
. jambe.
OXFORD COUNTY.
Rt. hon. Joseph Warner
Henley,
John Sidney North,
John William Fane.
BANBURY.
Bemhard Samnelson.
. OXFORD (CITY).
Charles Neate,
Rt. Hon. Edward Cardwell.
{COMMONS, 1867}
OXFORD (UNIVERSITY).
Sir William Heathcote, bt.,
Rt. hon. Gathorne Hardy.
WOODSTOCK.
Henry Barnett.
RUTLAND COUNTY.
Hon. Gerard James Noel,
Hon. Gilbert Henry Heath-
cote.
SALOP COUNTY.
{Northern Division,)
John Ralph Ormsby-Gore,
Hon. Adelbert Wellington
Cust.
{Southern Division.)
Robert Jasper More,
Hon. Percy Egerton Her-
bert.
BRIDGNORTH.
John Pritchard,
Henry Wbitmore.
LUDLOW.
Hon. George Herbert Wind-
sor Windsor- Clive,
John Edmund Sereme.
SHREWSBURY.
George Tomline,
William James Clement.
WENLOCK.
Rt. hon. George Cecil Weld
Forester,
James Milnes Gaskell.
SOMERSET COUNTY.
{Eastern Division.)
Ralph Neville-GrenTille,
Richard Horner Paget.
( Western Division.)
Sir Alexander Fuller Acland
Hood, bt.,
William Henry Powell Gore-
Laogton.
BATH.
William Tite,
James Macnaghten Hogg.
BRIDGWATER.
Alexander William Einglake,
Philip Vanderbyl.
FROME.
Sir Henry Creswicke Raw-
linson.
TAUNTON.
Alexander Charles Barclay,
Hon. William Montagu (Hay)
Lord W. M. Hay.
WELLS.
Hedworth Hylton Jolliflfe,
Arthur Dirett Hayter.
Members,
BRISTOL.
Hon. Francis Henry Fits'*
hardinge Berkeley,
Sir Samuel Morton Peto, bt.
SOUTHAMPTON
COUNTY.
{Northern Division.)
William Wither Bramston
Beach,
George Sclater-Booth.
{Southern Division.)
Sir Jeryoise Clarke Clarke-
Jervoise, bt.,
Henry Hamlyn Fane.
ANDOVER.
Hon. Dudley Francis For-
tescue,
CHRISTCHURCH.
John Edward Walcott.
LYMINGTON.
William Alexander Mac-
kinnon, jun.,
Hon. George Charles (Gor-
don Lennox) Lord G. C.
Lennox.
NEWPORT, ISLE OF WIGHT*
Charles Wykeham Martin,
Robert William Eennard.
PETERSFIELD.
William Nicholson.
PORTSMOUTH.
William Henry StonOf
Stephen Gaselee.
SOUTHAMPTON.
Russell Gurney,
George Moffatt.
WINCHESTER.
John Bonham-Carter,
William Barrow Simmonds.
STAFFORD COUNTY.
{Northern Division.)
Sir Edward Manningham
Bulier, bt.,
Rt. hon. Charles Bowyer
Adderley.
{Southern Division.)
Henry John Wentworth
Hodgetts. Foley,
William Orme Foster.
LICHFIELD.
Hon. Augustus Henry Archi-
bald Anson,
Richard Dyott.
NEWOASTLE.UNDER.LYME
William Shepherd Allen,
Edmund Buckley.
STAFFORD.
Michael Arthur Bass,
Walter Meller.
Lisiof
STOK&.UPON.TBE1«T.
Alexuider James Beresford
Hope,
Hcaiy BiYendAle Grenfell.
TAMWORTH.
Bt boo. Sir Robert Peel, bt.,
Jobn Peel.
WALSALL.
ClailesFonter.
WOLVERHAMPTON.
Rt. hoD. Chaiies PeUiam
TiDiera,
fhooas Matthias Weguelin.
SUFFOLK COUNTY.
{EmaUrM Dintion.)
Hoa. John Major Henniker-
l£ajor.
(WcifantDnntMMi.)
Windsor Parker,
Hon. Augustas Henry
Charles (HerTejr) Lord A.
H. C. Herrej.
BURT ST. EDMUNDS.
Josqib Alfred HardcasUe,
Edvard Greene.
ETE.
Hon. George William Bar-
lington.
IPSWICH.
Hugh Edirard Adair,
Jo& Cherallier Cobbold.
SURREY COUNTY.
(Etttlem IXmnon,)
Hon. Peter John Locke
King,
Charles Buiton.
( IFcsteni I}wigian,)
John iTatt Briscoe,
Geoige Cnbitt.
GUILDFORD.
Goildford James Hillier
Mainwaring Elleker On-
slofr,
Richard Gtrth.
LAMBETH.
Thomas Hughes,
Frederick Doulton.
REI6ATE.
OnaTUle William Qresham
LsTOson-Goirer.
SOUTHWARK.
John Locke,
Austen Henry Layard.
SUSSEX COUNTY.
(EoMiam Dwuion,)
John George Dodson,
Hon. Edward (Carendish)
Lord B. CaTcndish.
{COMMONS, 1867}
Susfixz CouNTT — eant.
[enry Wyndham,
Walter Barttelot Barttelot.
ARUNDEL. .
Rt. hon. (Edward George
Fits-Alan Howard) Lord
E. G. F. Howard.
BRIGHTHELMSTONE.
James White,
Henry Fawcett.
CHICHESTER.
John Abel Smith,
Hon. (George Charles Henrr
Gordon Lennox) Lord G.
C. H. G. Lennox.
HORSHAM.
Robert Henry Hurst.
LEWES.
Hon. Henry Bouverie Wil-
liam Brand,
Hon. Walter John (Pelham)
Lord Pelham.
MIDHURST.
William Townley Mitford.
SHOREHAM (NEW).
Stephen Care,
Sir Percy Burrell, bt.
WARWICK COUNTY.
(Northern DivtBion.)
Charles Newdigate Newde-
gate,
William Darenport Bromley,
{Souihem VivisioH.)
Sir Charles Mordannt, bt.,
Henry Christopher Wise.
BIRMINGHAM.
William Scholefield,
John Bright.
COVENTRY.
Morgan Treherne,
Henry William Eaton.
WARWICK.
George William John Rep-
ton,
Arthur Wellesley Peel.
WESTMORELAND
COUNTY.
Hon. Henry Cecil Lowther,
Hon. Thomas (Taylour) Earl
of Bective.
KENDAL.
George Carr Glyn.
WIGHT (ISLE OF).
Sir John Simeon, bt.
WILTS COUNTY.
(Northern Diviium.)
Hon. Charles William (Bru-
denell- Bruce) Lord C. W.
Brndenell-Brnoe,
Richard Penruddocke Long.
( Southern IHvition.)
Hon. Henry Frederick
(Thynne) Lord H. F,
Thynnc,
Thomas Eraser Grore.
CALNE.
Rt. hon. Robert Lowe.
CHIPPENHAM.
Sir John Neeld, bt.,
Gabriel Goldney.
CRICKLADE.
Ambrose Lethbridge God-
dard,
Daniel Gooch.
DEVIZES.
Christopher Darby Griffith,
Sir Thomas Bsteson, bt.
MARLBOROUGH.
Rt. hon. (Ernest Augustus
Charles Bmdenell-Bruce)
Lord E. A. C. B. Bruce,
Henry Bingham Baring.
MALMESBURY.
Hon. Henry Charles (How-
ard) Viscount AndoYor.
NEW SARUM (SALISBURY).
Matthew Henry Marsh,
Edward William Terriok
Hamilton.
WESTBURY.
Sir Massey Lopes, bt.
WILTON.
Edmund Antrobus.
WORCESTER COUNTY.
(Eaatem Divuion,)
Hon. Frederick Henry Wil-
liam Gough Calthorpe,
Harry Foley Vernon.
( Western Divieion,)
Frederick Winn Knight,
William Edward Dowdes-
well.
BEWDLEY.
Sir Thomas Edward Win-
nington, bt.
DROITWICH.
Rt. hon. Sir John Somerset
Pakington, bt.
DUDLEY.
Henry Brinsley Sheridan.
EVESHAM.
James Bourne,
Edward Holland.
LUtof
KIDDERMINSTER.
Albert GraDt.
WORCESTER.
Alezftnder CIudob Sherriff,
Richard Padmore.
YORK COUNTY.
(Nifrth Riding.)
Frederick Acclom Milbank,
Hon. William Ernest Dun-
combe.
{Easi Riding.)
Rt.bon. Beaumont (Hotham)
Lord Hotham,
Hon. Arthur Duneombe.
(Iforth^mDivition, Wut Riding.)
Sir Francis Crosslej, hi.,
Hon. Frederick Charles
(Cafendish) Lord F. C.
CaTcndish.
(SoidhendHvitionf West Riditig.)
Hon. William (Wentworth-
FitaWiniam)yi8CountMU.
ton.
Henrj Frederick Beaumont.
BEVERLEY.
Sir Henry Sdwards, bt.,
Christopher Sjkes.
BRADFORD.
Henry Wickham Wickham,
William Edward Forster.
HALIFAX.
James Stansfeld,
Edward Akroyd.
HUDDERSFIELD.
Thomas Pearson Crosland.
KINGSTON-UPON-HULL.
James Clay,
Charles Morgan Norwood.
KKARESBOROUGH.
Basil Thomas Woodd^
Isaac Uolden.
LEEDS.
George Skirrow Beecroft,
Edward Baines.
MALTON.
Hon. Charles William Went-
worth-Fitzwilliam,
James Brown.
NORTHALLERTON.
Hon. Egremont William
Lascelles
PONTEFRACT.
Hugh Culling Eardley Chil-
ders»
Samuel Waterhouse.
RICHMOND.
Sir Rouodell Palmer, knt.
Marmaduko WyTilU
{COMMONS, 1867}
RIPON.
Robert Kearsley,
Lord John Hay.
SCARBOROUGH.
Sir John Yanden Bempde
Johnstone, bt.,
John Dent Dent.
SHEFFIELD.
John Arthur Roebuck,
Oeorge Hadfield.
THIRSK.
Sir William Payne Qallwey,
bt.
WAKEFIELD.
William Henry Leatham.
WHITBY.
Charles Bagnall.
YORK CITY.
James Lowther,
George Leeman.
BARONS OF THE
CINQUE PORTS.
DOVER.
Alexander George Dickson,
Charles Kaye Freshfield.
HASTINGS.
Hon. George Waldegrare-
Leslie,
Patrick Francis Robertson.
SANDWICH.
Edward Ejiatchbull-Huges-
sen,
Charles Capper.
HYTHE.
Baron Mayer Amachel de
Rothschild.
RYE.
Lauchlan Bellingham Mac-
kinnon.
WALES.
ANGLESEA COUNTY.
Sir Richard Bulkoley Wil-
liams-Bulkeley, bt.
BEAUMARIS.
Hon. William Owen Stanley.
BRECKNOCK COUNTY.
Hon. Godfrey Charles Mor-
gan.
BRECKNOCK.
Howell Gwyn.
CARDIGAN COUNTY.
Sir Thomas Lloyd, bt.
CARDIGAN, d^o.
Edward Lewis Pryse.
Members,
CARMARTHEN
COUNTY.
David Jones,
David Pugh.
CARMARTHEN, Ac.
William Morris.
CARNARVON COUNTY.
Hon. George DouglasPea-
nant.
CARNARVON, Ac.
William Biilkeley Hughes.
DENBIGH COUNTY.
Sir Watkin WiUiams Wynn,
bt.,
Robert Myddelton Biddulph.
DENBIGH, &o.
Townshend Mainwaring.
FLINT COUNTY.
Hon. (Richard de Aquila
Grosvenor) Lord R. Groa-
yenor.
FLINT, Ac.
Sir John Hanmer, bt.
GLAMORGAN COUNTY.
Christopher Rice Mansel
Talbot,
Henry Hussey Vivian.
CARDIFF, &o.
James Frederick Dudley
Crichton- Stuart.
SWANSEA.
Lewis Llewellyn Dillwyn.
MERTHYR TIDVIL.
Rt. hon. Henry Austin Bruce.
MERIONETH COUNTY.
William Robert Maurico
Wynne.
MONTGOMERY
COUNTY.
Charles Watkins Williams
Wynn.
MONTGOMERY.
Hon. Charles Richard Doug-
las Hanbury-Tracy.
PEMBROKE COUNTY.
James Be van Bowen.
PEMBROKE.
Sir Hugh Owen Owen, bt.
HAVERFORDWEST.
John Henry Scourfield.
RADNOR COUNTY.
Sir John Benn Walsh, bt.
NEW RADNOR.
Richard Green Price,
Lisi of
SCOTLAND.
ABERDEENSHIRE.
William Dingwall Ford jce.
ABERDEEN.
William Henry Sykes.
ARGYLESHIRE.
Alexander Struthers Finlay.
AYRSHIRE.
Sir James Fergusson, bt.
KILMARNOCK, RENFREW,
Rt. hoh. Edward Fleydell
Bouyerie.
BURGHS OF ATR, Ao.
Edward Henry John Crau-
furd.
BANFFSHIRE.
Bobert William Duff.
BEBWIOKSHIRE,
Dayid Robertson.
BUTESHIRE.
James Lament.
OAITHNESS-SHIRE.
George Traill.
WICK. KIRKWALL, Ao.
Samuel Laing.
CLACKMANNAN AND
KINROSS-SHIRES.
William Patrick Adam.
DUMBARTONSHIRE.
Patrick Boyle Smollett.
DUMFRIES-SHIRE.
George Gustavus Walker.
DUMFRIES, Ac. ^
William Ewart.
EDINBURGHSHIRE.
Hon. William Henry Walter
(Mentague-Douglaa-Scott)
' Earl of Dalkeith.
EDINBURGH
Duncan McLaren, • .
Bt. hon. James Moncreiff. '
BURGHS OF LEITH, &o.
William Miller.
ELGIN AXD NAIRNSHIRE.
Charles Lemiox Gumming-
Bruce.
BURGHS OF ELGIN, 4o.
Mountstuart Elphinstone
Grant Duff.
FIFESHIRE.
Sir Robert Anstruther, bt.
BURGHS OF ST. ANDREWS,
Edward Ellice.
{COMMONS, 1867}
I KIRKCALDY, DYSART, Ac.
Roger Sinclair Aytoun.
FORFARSHIRE.
Hon. Charles Carnegie.
TOWN OF DUNDEE.
Sir John Ogilvy, bt.
MONTROSE, Ac.
William Edward Baxter.
HADDINGTONSHIRE.
Hon. Francis Wemyss (Char-
teris) Lord Elcho.
HADDINGTON, Ac.
Sir Henry Robert Ferguson
Darie, bt.
INVERNESS-SHIRE.
Henry James Baillie.
INVERNESS, Ac.
Alexander Matheson.
KINCARDINESHIRE.
James Dyce Nicol.
KIRKCUDBRIGHTSHIRE.
James Mackie.
LANARKSHIRE.
Sir Thomas Edward Cole-
brooke, bt.
GLASGOW.
William Graham,
Robert Dalglish.
LINLITHGOWSHIRE.
Peter McLagan.
ORKNEY AND SHETLAND.
Frederick Dundas.
PEEBLES-SHIRE.
Sir Graham Graham Mont-
gomery, bt.
PERTHSHIRE.
Sir William Stirling Max-
well, bt.
PERTH.
Hon. Arthur FitzGerald Kin-
naird.
RENFREWSHIRE.
Archibald Alexander Speirs.
PAISLEY.
Humphrey Ewing Crum-
Ewing.
GREENOCK.
Alexander Murray Dunlop.
ROSS AifD CROMARTY
SHIRES.
Sir James Matheson, bt.
ROXBURGHSHIRE.
Sir William Scott, bt.
SELKIRKSHIRE.
Hon. (Henry John Montagu-
Douglas- Scott) Lord H.
J. M. D. Scott.
Mmbets*
STIRLINGSHIRE.
John Elphinstone Erskine.
STIRLING, Ac.
Lawrence Oliphant.
FALKIRK, Ac.
James Merry.
SUTHERLANDSHIRE.
Rt. hon. Sir David Dundas.
WIGTONSHIRE.
Sir Andrew Agnew, bt.
WIGTON, Ac.
George Young.
IRELAND.
ANTRIM.
Edward O'Neill,
George Henry Seymour.
BELFAST,
Samuel Gibson Getty,
Charles Lanyon.
CARRICKFER6US.
Robert Torrens.
LISBURN.
Edward Wiugfield Verner.
ARMAGH.
Sir William Vomer, bt..
Sir James Mathew Stronge,
bt.
ARMAGH (CITY).
John Vance.
CARLOW.
Dennis William Pack Beres-
ford,
Henry Bruen.
CARLOW (BOROUGH).
Osborne Stock.
CAVAN.
Hon. Hugh Annesley,
Edward Saunders on.
CLARE.
Crofton M. Vandeleur,
Sir Cohnan Michael O'Logh-
len, bt.
ENNIS.
William Stacpoole.
CORK COUNTY.
Nicholas Philpot Leader,
BANDON BRIDGE.
Hon, Henry Boyle Bernard.
CORK (CITY).
Nicholas Daniel Murphy,
John Francis Maguire.
LUiof
KINSALE.
Sir Qeorge Oonway Colt-
hunt, bt.
MALLOW.
Edward Suli'iTan.
YOUGHAL.
Joseph Neale M'Kenna.
DONEGAL.
Hon. James (Hamilton)
Yiscount Hamilton,
Thomas ConoUy.
DOWNSHIRE.
Hon. (Arthur Edwin Hill-
TreTor) Lord A. B. Hill-
TreTor,
William Brownlow Forde.
NEWRY.
Arthur Charles Norres.
DOWNPATRICK.
Dayid Stewart Eer.
DUBLIN COUNTY.
Thomas Edwutl Taylor,
Ion Trant Hamilton.
DUBLIN (CITY).
Benjamin Lee Guinness,
Jonathan Pirn.
DUBLIN (UNIVERSITY),
Anthony Lefroy,
FERMANAGH.
Meryyn Edward Archdall,
Hon. Henry Arthur Cole.
ENNISKILLEN.
Hon. John Lowry Cole.
6ALWAY.
William Henry Gregory,
Hon. Ulick Canning (De
Burgh) Lord Dunkellin.
GALWAY (BOROUGH).
Sir Rowland Blennerhasset,
ht.,
KERRY.
Rt. hon. Valentine Augustus
(Browne) Viscount Castle-
rosse,
Henry Arthur Herhert.
TRALEE.
O'Donoghue, Daniel (The
O'Donoghue).
KILDARE.
William Henry Ford Cogan,
Hon. (Otho Augustus Fiti-
Gerald) Lord 0. A. Fits-
Gerald,
{COMMONS, 1867)
KILKENNY.
George Leopold Bryan,
Hon. Leopold George Fre-
derick Agar-EUis.
KILKENNY (BOROUGH).
Sir John Gray.
KINO'S COUNTY.
John Gilhert King,
Sir Patrick O'Brien, bt.
LEITRIM.
William Richard Ormshy-
Gore,
John Brady.
LIMERICK.
Rt. hon. William Monsell,
Edmund John Synan.
LIMERICK (CITY).
George Gavin,
Francis William Russell.
LONDONDERRY.
Robert Peel Dawson,
Sir Frederick William Hey-
gate, bt.
OOLERAINE.
Sir Henry Hervey Bruce, bt.
LONDONDERRY (CITY).
Hon. (Claud John Hamilton)
Lord C. J. Hamilton.
LONGFORD.
Myles William O'Reilly,
Fulke Southwell Grerille.
LOUTH.
Rt. hon. Chichester Samuel
Fortescue,
Tristram Kennedy.
DUNDALK.
Sir George Bowyer, bt.
DROGHEDA.
Benjamin Whitworth.
MAYO.
Hon. John Thomas (Browne)
Lord J. T. Browne,
Hon. Richard Camden (Bing-
ham) Lord Bingham.
MEATH.
Matthew Elias Corbally,
Edward MacEyoy.
MONAGHAN.
Charles Powell Leslie,
Hon. Yesey Dawson.
QUEEN'S COUNTY.
Francis Plunket Dunne,
Rt. hon. John Wilson Fitc-
I Patrick.
PORTARLINGTON.
James Anthony Lawson.
ROSCOMMON.
Fitzstephen French,
The 0 'Conor Don.
SLIGO.
Sir Robert Gore Booth, bt.,
Edward Henry Cooper.
SLIGO (BOROUGH).
Richard Armstrong.
TIPPERARY.
Charles Moore.
Hon. Charles White.
GASHEL.
James Lyster O'Beime.
OLONMBL.
John Bagwell.
TYRONE.
Rt. hon. Henry Thomas
Lowry-Corry,
Rt. hon. (Claud Hamilton)
Lord C. Hamilton.
DUNGANNON.
Hon. William Stuart Knox.
WATERFORD.
John Esmonde,
Edmond de la Poer.
DUNGARVAN.
Charles Robert Barry.
WATERFORD (CITY).
John Aloysius Blake,
Sir Henrjf Winston Barron,
bt.
WESTMEATH.
William Pollard- Urquh art,
Algernon William Falke
Greville.
ATHLONE.
DAiis Joseph Rearden.
WEXFORD.
Sir James Power, bt.,
Arthur Eayanagh.
WEXFORD (BOROUGH).
Richard Joseph Deyereux.
ROSS (NEW).
Charles George Tottenham.
WICKLOW.
William Wentworth . Fitx-
william Dick,
Hon. Granville Leresoa
(Proby) Lord Proby.
»/
HANSAED'S
PAKLIAMENTARY DEBATES,
IN THE
Second Session of the Nineteenth Parliament of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
Appointed to meet 1 Febbuabt, 1866, and thence
continued till 5 Febbuabt, 1867, in the Thibtieth
Teab of the Reign of
HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.
PIBBT YOLUME OF THE SESSION.
HOTTSE OF LOBDS,
2Wfdby» JMrumy 6, 1867.
rB PABUAMXNT, which had been
Pkorogned suoceeaiyely from the 10th
day of Angnst to the 25tii day of Octo*
ber ; thenoe to the 20th day of Noyember ;
thenee to the 15th day of January;
thenee to the 6th day of February ; met
this day for Despatch of Bosinees.
The Seasion of^PAHLTAvmiT was opened
by Tax QuxEH in Person.
the queeits speech.
HEE ICAJESTT, being seated on the
Thnme, adorned with Her Crown and
Begal Ornaments, and attended by Her
Oleen of State :— The Panrcn ot Walis
0B hisBobes) sitting in his Chair on Hbb
YOL, CLXXXY. [thibd skbos.]
Majsstt's right hand — (the Lords being in
their Robes)— commanded the Gentleman
Usher of the Black Bod, through the
Deputy Lord Oreat Chamberlain, to let
the Commons know ** It is Her Majesty's
Pleasure they attend Her immediately, in
this House."
Who bebg come, with their Speaker ;
The LoBD Chavcbllob, taking Direc*
tions from Hxb Majesty, said —
My Lards, and QenOemm,
** In again reenrring to your Advice
and Assistance, I am happy to inform
you that My Belations with Foreign
Powers are on a friendly and satis-
{eustory Footing.
<' I HOPE that the TemtMnation of
the War in which Prussia, Austria^
and Ikdy have been engaged maj
B
l%e Quern* 9
ftnt of a durable
8
lead to the Ertablt
Peace in Europe,
'' I HAYB raggeated to tbe Govern-
ment of the UnUed States a Mode by
which Questions pending between the
Two Oountries arising out of the late
Civil War may receive amicable Solu-
tion^ and which, if met, as I trust it
will be, in a corresponding Spirit, will
remove all Orounds of possible Mis-
understanding, and promote Relations
of cordial Friendship.
" Thb War between Spain and the
Bepublics of OhUi and Peru still con-
tinues, the good Offices of My Gk>-
vemment, in conjunction with that of
The Emperor of the French, having
failed to effect a Beoonciliation. If
either by Agreement between the
Parties themselves, or by the Media-
tion of any other friendly Power,
Peace shall be restored, the Object
which I have had in view will equally
be attained.
''Discontent prevailing in some
Provinces of the Turkish Empire has
broken out in actual Insurrection in
Cfrete. In common with My Allies,
The Emperor of the French and The
Emperor of £fM9ia, I have abstained
from any active Interference in these
internal Disturbances, but Our joint
Efforts have been directed to bringing
about improved fielations between
the Porte and its Christian Subjects^
not inoonsiBtent with the sovereign
Bights of The Sultan.
''Thb protractedNegotiations which
arose out of the Acceptance by Prince
Charles of SohenzoOem of the Gh>vem«
ment of the Danubian Principalities
have been happily terminated by an
Arrangement to which the Porte has
given its ready Adhoeuuii and which
(LOBSS)
Speeeh^
has been sanctioned by the Concur-
rence of all the Powers, Signataries
pftheTreaty of 1856.
" BasoLunoNs in favour of a more
intimate Union of the Provinces of
Canada^ Nova Scotia, and New Bruns-
wick have been passed by their several
Legislatures; and Delegates duly
authorized and representing all Classes
of Colonial Party and Opinion have
concurred in the Conditions upon
which such an Union may be best
effected. In accordance with] their
Wishes a Bill will be submitted to
you, which, by the Consolidation of
Colonial Interests and Besources, will
give Strength to the several Provinces
as Members of the same Empire, and
animated by Feelings of Loyalty to
the same Sovereign.
" I HAVB heard with deep Sorrow
that the Calamity of Famine has
pressed heavily on My Subjects in
some Parts of India. Instructions
were issued to My Government in
that Country to make the utmost
Exertions to mitigate the Distress
which prevailed during the Autumn
of last Tear. The Blessing of an
abundant Harvest has since that Time
materially improved the Condition of
the suffering Districts.
" The persevering Efforts and un-
scrupulous Assertions of treasonable
Conspirators abroad have, during the
last Autumn, excited the Hopes of
some disaffected Persons in Ireland,
and the Apprehensions of the loyal
Population; but the firm, yet tem-
perate Exercise of the Powers entrust-
ed to the Executive, and the Hostility
manifested against the Conspiracy by
Men of all Classes and Creeds, have
greatly tended to reitord PnbUo Con*
5 I%e QiemtB (Febevabt
fide&oej and have rendered hopeleM
any Attempt to disturb the general
Tranquillity. I trust that yon may
consequently be enabled to dispense
with the Continuance of any excep-
tional Legislation for that Fart of
My Dominions.
'' I ACKNO WLBDQB, with dccp Thank-
fulness to Almighty God, the great
Decrease that has taken place in the
Cholera, and in the PestUence which
has attacked our Cattle ; but the con-
tinued Prevalence ofthe latter in some
Foreign Countries, and its occasional
Be-appearance in this, will still render
necessary some special Measures of
Precaution; and I trust that the Visi-
tation of the former will lead to in-
creased Attention to those Sanitary
Measures which Experience has shown
to be the best Preyentive.
''EsTiHATiNo as of the highest Im-
portance an adequate Supply of pure
and wholesome Water, I have directed
the Issue of a Commission to inquire
into the best Means of permanently
securing such a Supply for the Me«
tropolis, and for the principal Towns
in densely-peopled Districts of the
Kingdom.
QerUUmen of the ShuM of
Commons,
m
m
** I HAYB directed the Estimates for
the ensuing Year to be laid before
you. They hare been prepared with
a due Regard to Economy, and to the
Beqairements of the public Service.
'' You will, I am assured, give your
ready Assent to a moderate Expendi-
ture calculated to improre the Condi-
tion of My Soldiers, and to lay the
Foundation of an efficient Army of
fteMTve,
5,1867} Bpmh, 6
My Lords, and OfmOemm,
''YouB Attention will again be
caUed to the State of the Bepresenta-
tion of the People in Parliament ; and
I trust that your Deliberations, con-
ducted in a Spirit of Moderation and
mutual Forbearance, may lead to the
Adoption of Measures which, without
unduly disturbing the Balance of
political Power, shall freely extend
the Elective Franchise.
''Thb frequent Occurrence of Dis-
agreements between Employers of
Labour and their Workmen, causing
much private Suffering and public
Loss, and occasionally leading, as is
alleged, to Acts of Outrage and Vio-
lence, has induced Me to issue a Com-
mission to inquire into and report
upon the Organization of Trades
Unions and other Associations, whe-
ther of Workmen or Employers, with
Power to suggest any Improvement
of the Law for their mutual Benefit.
Application will be made to you for
Parliamentary Powers, which will be
necessary to make this Inquiry effec-
tive.
"I HAVE directed Bills to be laid
before you for the Extension of the
beneficial Provisions of the Factory
Acts to other Trades specially re-
ported on by the Boyal Commission
on the Employment of Children, and
for the better Begulation, according
to the Principle of those Acts, of
Workshops where Women and Chil*
dren are largely employed.
*' The Condition of the Mercantile
Marine has attracted My serious At-
tention. Complaints are made that
the Supply of Seamen is deficient, and
that the Provisions for their Health
Discipline on board Ship are im-
98
Tk$ dumfi
(LOBDS)
Spmeh*
B
perfect Measures will be submitted
to you with a yiew to increase the
Efficiency of this important Service.
^'I HAYB observed with Satisfaction
the BAlaxations recently introduced
into the Navigation Laws of JVaitca.
I hare expressed to The Emperor of
the H'ench My Readiness to submit
to Parliament a Proposal for the Ex-
tinction, on equitable Terms, of the
Exemptions from local Charges on
Shipping which are still enjoyed by
a limited Number of Individuals in
British 'PottB; and His Imperial Ma-
jesty has, in anticipation of this Step,
already admitted British Ships to the
Adyantage of the new Law. A Bill
upon this Subject will forthwith be
laid before you.
" A Bill will also be submitted to
you for making better Provision for
the Arrangement of the Affairs of
Railway Companies which are unable
to meet their Engagements.
''MxASURBS wiU be submitted to
you for Improving the Management
of sick and other Poor in the Metro-
polis, and for a Be-distribution of some
of the Charges for Belief therein.
^'YouB Attention wiU also be called
to the Amendment of the Law of
Bankruptcy; to the Consolidation of
the Courts of Probate and Divorce
and Admiralty ; and to the Means of
disposing, with greater Despatch and
Frequency, of the increasing Business
in the Superior Courts of Common
Law and at the Assizes.
'' Thb Relations between Landlord
and Tenant in Ireland hare engaged
My anxious Attention, and a Bill will
be laid before you which, without
interfering with the Rights of Pro-
pertyi will offer direct Encouragement
to Occupiers of Land to improve thdr
Holdings, and provide a simple Mode
of obtaining Compensation for per-
manent Improvements.
" I COMMEND to your careful Con-
sideration these and other Measures
which will be brought before you; and
I pray that your Labours may, under
the Blessing of Providence, conduce
to the Prosperity of the Country, and
the Happiness of My People/'
Then Hsb Majsstt retired.
Boll of the Loeds — Garter King of
Arms attending, cMto^riM^ at the Table (in
the usual Manner) a List of the Lords
Temporal in the Second Session of the
Nineteenth Parliament of the United King-
dom : The same was Ordered to lie on the
Table.
Several Lords— Took the Oath.
Charles Stanley Yiscount Monck, in that
Part of the United Kingdom of Great Bri-
tain and Iceland oall^ Ireland, having
been created Baron Honck of Ballytrammon
in the County of Weidford— Was (in the
usual Manner) introduced.
Gustavns Frederick Yisoount Boyne, in
that Part of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Ireland called Ireland, having
been oreated Baron Branoepeth of Brance-
peth in the County Palatine of Darham— -
Was (in the usual Manner) introdaoed.
Writs and Betnms electing The Yis-
count Templetown a Bepresentative Peer
for Ireland in the Room of the late Earl
of Lanesborough, deoeased, with the Cer-
tifloate of the Clerk of the Crown in Ire-
land annexed thereto— i>^Mp«rMf (on Oath),
and Certificate read.
The Marquees Camden — Sat first iu
Parliament after the Death of his Father.
The Earl of Chesterfield— Sat first in
Parliament after the Death of his Father.
SELECT VESTRIES.
Billi profirmdf read 1*.
Tn QUEEITS SPEECH having been
riparUd by The J/m CEAMOKUU»i^^
9
Aiir$9ito
(Fxbbvast5, 1867)
Bi$r Mqfuiff,
10
ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY OX HER
MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
Eaxl BEAUCHAMPy in rifling to move
•an humble AddresB in answer to Her Ma-
jesty's most gracious Speech from the
Throne^ said : My Lords, in approaching
my arduous and responsible task, I cannot
but wish it had been committed to some
Peer of greater experience in your Lord-
ships' House than I can in any way pretend
to. The topics suggested by the Speech
are so nnmerous« so varied, and so impor-
tant, that it will be impossible to give
each of them, in so short a time, anything
like the consideration they deserve. I
will, however, presume to touch upon a
few of the principal matters referred to.
Tour LonLahips will, I have no doubt,
folly concur with me in the belief that the
first topic in the Speech has been so placed
from a due regard to its importance— -for to
this country &e question of peace or war
is on.e of tiie deepest interest. It must,
therefore, be ,a matter of great satisfaction
to your Lordships to be assured that Her
Majesty's relations with Foreign Powers
continue to be of the most finendly de-
scription. When you remember that so
recently as last year the peace of Europe
was disturbed by a sangumary war, it is,
indeed, satis&ctory for us to learn that
Her Majesty can express a confident
hope in the uuration of peace in Europe.
The blessings of peace are so great that it
is impossible to overrate them. It is,
therefore, matter for further congratula-
tion that those difficult questions which
exist between the United States and this
country— questions which have given rise
to a considerable amount of apprehension
in the minds of a large portion of the
population of this coun^, are now in the
way of a speedy and satisfactory solution.
. Hy Lords, I believe that but one feeling
animates Ihe people of this country ; and
that is a most cordial desire to be on
friendly terms with the people of the
great American Bepublio. And while it
is right and proper for this country to
maintain what they may fairly regard as
their own right, it is not unbecoming for
ft great nation like ours, should feelings of
irritation arise, to make such concessions
as we may make without injury to our
honour in order to secure the continuance
of friendly relations with Foreign Powers,
^hich are so important to our prosperity.
Uy Lords, Her Majesty has told us that
She xegnis the continuance of the war
between Spain and Chile and Peru ; and
we can heurtily join with her in the hope
that peace between those belligerents may
soon be restored. During the recess your
Lordships' attention has doubtless been
called to the insurrection in Crete, and
your Lordships had, no doubt, read with
heartfelt pity the record of the beroic and
gallant struggles which have taken place
on that island. I think it is a matter of
some satisfaction that the insurrection took
place while Parliament was not sitting.
I cannot forget the struggle which was
made by a gaUant nation— the Poles — and
that during that struggle injudicious ex-
pressions used by Members of Parliament
were construed into meaning that this
country was prepared to afford a far
larger amount of sympathy for the cause
than was ever intended. I think that
the Members of the Legislature should
bear in mind the great responsibility
which attaches to their utterances. We
have seen the result in the case of
Poland, and I cannot but rejoice that the
insurrection in Crete took place when this
House was not sitting, because expressions
of sympathy might have been regarded as
promises of material assistance which we
were unable to afifbrd. The House will,
however, learn with great satisfaction
that Her Majesty has been enabled, in
common with her allies, to bring about
improved relations between the Porte and
its Christian subjects not inconsistent with
the sovereign rights of the Sultan. My
Lords, that observation applies not only to
Crete, but also to the Danubian Principa-
lities, an arrangement having been made
to which the Porte had given its ready ad-
hesion, and which has been sanctioned
by all the Powers signataries of the Treatv
of 1856.
While, however, my Lords, we look with
satisfaction to our relations with Foreign
Powers, we should not lose sight of the
interests of those colonies which, sheltered
under our fostering care, have grown and
increased in strength until they have as-
sumed the importimoe and responsibilitiea
of large communities. It must accord-
ingly be gratifying to know that a Bill
is to be intitt^uced for the consoli-
dation of their interests and resources. We
should all be heartily glad if the same
love of peace and desire for union which
prevails in our North American Colonies
existed in every other portion of the
British Empire. Unhappily a widely-
spread conspiracy has for some years dis*
11
AUreuto
(LOBDS)
JSTtfT JAg^M^Mi
13
turbed fhe seeurity of the loyal portion
of Ker Majesty's sabjects in Ireland. But
we have at least the satis&ction of know*
ing that the designs of the misguided men
who engaged in that senseless undertaking
have been completely defeated by the pru-
dent precautions which have Men taken
by the Government, and also to some ez-
trat, we may hope, by the reviving loyalty
of some of &e persons who had been de-
luded by the machinations of the leading
oonspirators. The danger has now, in a
great measure, passed away ; and, happily,
the spirit of disa£fection has extended to
only a small portion of the population of
Ireland, while the whole course of those
events has shown that the vast minority
of that population, of all creeds and classes,
are sincerely attached to the Grown and
Government of the United Kingdom.
Her Majesty expresses the deep sorrow
with which She has heard of the dread-
ful famine which since last summer has
afflicted some portion of Ker Indian
subjects; and were is not one among
your Lordships who does not share in
that feeling, and who will not rejoice
with Her Majesty in the termination of
so great a calamity. At the meeting
of Parliament at the commencement of
last year, a large portion of the agricul-
tural interest of this country was greatly
afifeoted by the cattle plague, which oc-
casioned great suffering and distress in
many districts; but your Lordships will
hear with satisfaction that by reason of the
important measures which were passed by
Parliament, or in consequence of the na-
tural dying out of the disease in the winter
months, the scourge has passed away. We
have, however, since had to meet a more
serious peril to our social welfare and
prosperity created by a visitation of cho-
lera. That, too, has passed away; but
the poison of that disease is so subtle and
so deadly, that it is evidently the duty of
those charged with the responsibility of
Government to take eyerj precaution
against the recurrence of such a calamitv ;
and therefore we must learn with satis-
faction that a Eoyal Commission is about
to be appointed for the purpose of in-
quiring into the import^t sanitary sub-
ject of the supply of pure water to our
towns and cities. While referring to that
topic, I will venture to express a hope that
the owners of property throughout the
country will do all in their power to
aid in furthering these efforts for the pro-
motion of the public healtii, ai^d that they
Sari Beauchamp
will all in that respect imitate the good
example set us by Her Majesty. The
Boyal Speech afterwards contains a refer-
ence to the subject of Parliamentary Be-
form; and I am sure your Lordships will
heartily rejoice to know that there exists
at last a prospect of bringing that long-
vexed question to a satisfactory settlement.
It is impossible for me to say what may be
the nature of the proposal Her Majesty's
Government will have to submit to Parlia-
ment upon this subject ; but we must all
earnestly hope that it will be one calcu-
lated to improve the constitution of the
country.
The questions of our sanitary condi-
tion and of Parliamentary Beform are
no doubt of immense consequence ; but I
venture to think that in their immediate
bearing on the National welfare they must
^eld to that great danger which is impend-
ing over the country in consequence of the
bdefiil operations of the trades unions. We
have adopted the principle of free trade
in our whole commercial policy ; but I
believe that freedom of trade cannot
exist without freedom of labour, and
that this country cannot maintain its
position as the industrial centre of the
commercial world if the operations of the
trades unions restrict the employment of
labour and prevent the artisans from
making the best use they can of their
skill and industry. Adam Smith, in his
Wealth oflfaitons, lays down the doctrine
that the patrimony of the working-man
oonsists in his strength and dexterity of
hand, and that anything that prevents
him from employing that strength and
dexterity is a violation of his just rights.
The restrictions which are now imposed
on the working-men of this country are of
a different kind from those whidi were
contemplated by Adam Smith, but they
are not the less serious nor less dangerous.
It is possibly within the knowledge of
your Lordships that important trades and
branches of manufactures formerly exe-
cuted in this country are passing away
from us in consequence of tne operationB
of a portion of our artisans ; and those
artisans not only injure themselves by the
course they have thought fit to adopts
but they deprive other people of the op-
portunity of earning their accustomed
wages, and thus they materially diminish
the general means of subsistence. I am
persuaded that your Lordships will do all
you can to render the inquiries of the
Royal Comminion into this sniject as
IS
ffirJloti
{Fbbbvajit 5, 1S67)
Oraei^m Bpee&h. 14
effeoHre iub poadble. I ftirther belieTe
that you will heartily join in retoming
your humble thanks to Her Majesty for
the interest She has exhibited in the con-
dition of children employed in fiictories.
The foctory laws already form one of the
brightest pages in our National legislation,
and we shidl all heartily rejoice if any
considerable addition can be made to that
legislation during the course of the pre-
sent Session. Another important subject,
to which Her Majesty refers, is the relief
of embarrassed rsllway companies ; and it
is manifestly desirable that some mode
should, if possible, be adopted of enabling
them to meet their liabilities. Her Ma-
jesty also informs us that the relation of
landlord and tenant in Ireland is also to
engage our attention during the present
Session. It is not for me, unacquainted
as I am with Ireland, to express any
opinion upon that question ; but of this I
feel assui^, that if any simple mode can
be provided of giving compensation for
permanent improvements, it will go fiur to
settle a question which has disturbed a
considerable part of Ireland, and heal a
very dangerous sore. I shall be ashamed
to trespass any longer on your Lordships'
attention, but I cannot prevail on myself
to conclude without making one other ob-
servation. In these times, when efforts
are made to persuade this and other coun-
tries that the people of England are dis-
satisfied with the institutions under which
they live, I cannot refrain from noting
witii satisliEuition and pleasure — in which I
am sure all your Lordships will share —
the enthusiaatic reception accorded to the
Queen in Her recent visit to one of the great
mining districts of the kingdom. Her Muh
jesty was received on that occasion with a
most cordial welcome ; the highest and the
lowest vied with each other in demonstra-
tions of affection to their Sovereign. I
venture to think that no occasion could
have been more appropriate for Her Ma-
jesty to re-aj^ear among Her people, as
the national ezpon^t of their sympathies,
whether of sorrow or joy, than Uie inaugu-
ration of a monument to the memory of
that great Prince whose wisdom diminished
the care, as his affection enhanced the
happiness, of Her who was at once his
Monarch and his wife. The Queen did
not need that overwhelming burst of
lojnltv and attachment to convince Her
how dearly prized by Her loving subjects
is that personal discharge of duties which,
though not essential to State afiiftirsy mate-
rially conduce to the chivalrous affection
entertained for the person of the Queen.
Her Majesty now approaches the comple-
tion of the thirtieth year of Her reign,
and I venture to think that, in the coursef
of the thousand vears during which the
long line of Her illustrious ancestors has
wielded the sceptre ^ now swayed b^ Her
Majesty's hands, there is no penod o^
thirty years which will justly challenge
comparison with that now elapsed, for the
attention bestowed on the welfare and
prosperity of the people; and I make
bold to say that if Parliament in its wisdom
should fulfil the designs of the Queen, and
apply itself in that spirit of moderation
and forbearance, so wisely recommended
to us from the Throne, to the consideration
of the measures promised in Her Majesty's
Speech, this present Session will take no
unwortiiy place among its predecessors of
this happy reign. The occasion to which
I have referred — the visits to Wolverhamp-
ton— affords a convincing testimony that
the attention which the Crown and the
Legislature have given to the condition of
the people has borne abundant fruit in
dutiful attachment to the Queen, and in a
profound appreciation of tiie institutions
under which it is our blessing to Hve;
and, my Lords, no one can doubt that in
the person of the Queen has been fulfilled
the prediction of the Poet —
'* Entire and inre that monaroh'i rale nibitproTe
Who founds her greatness on her suhjeots' loTe.',*
My Lords, I beg to move the following
humble Address to Her Majesty, thanking
Her Majesty for Her Most Gracious Speech
from the Throne :-—
MOST GBICIOUS SOTlBBIOir,
" Wx, Tour Mijesty's most dutiful and loyal
Subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in
Parliament assembled, beg leare to offer our
humble Thanks to Tour Hajestj for Tour Ma*
jestj's graeious Speech;
'< Wb rejoice to learn that Tour Majesty's Re-
lations with Foreign Powers are on a friendly and
satisfiioCory Footing, and we join with Tour Ma-
jesty in the Hope that the Termination of the
War in which iViaM, Austria, and Italy hare
been engaged may tend to the Establishment of
durable Peace in Europe*
*' Wb humbly assure Tour Miyeety that we
learn with Satis&ction that Tour Migesty has
suggested to the GoTcrnment of the United States
a Mode by which Questions, pending between the
Two Countries, arising out of the Lite CItU War,
15
Addr$uto
ILORDB)
Btr llt^$djf im
le
nay raoeiTe an Amioable Solution, and whiob, if
met, M Your Mijesij tnisU it will be, in a oor-
respondiog Spirit, will remove all Gronnds of
pOMible Miianderstaading^and promote Relatione
of*oordial Friendship.
«<WiTR Tonr Mi^iett/, wo regret the Gontinn-
anoe of the War between Spain and the Repnblioi
of Chm and Perut and we lament that the good
OiBoes o( Tonr Mi^eety's GoTemment, in eon-
jnnotion with that of The Emperor of the French,
thoold haTO fiuled to haTO eflboted a Reooncilia-
tion« It will be a Oanee of Satisfiustion to ne, if
either by Agreement between the Partiei them-
■eWee, or bj the Mediation of any other friendlj
Power, Peace should be restored.
** Wb haTO obserred with Regret that Disoon-
lent prevailing in some ProTinoes of the TwrkUh
Empire has broken out in aotnal Insnrreetion in
OreU ; bnt we learn with Satis&etion, that in
oonmion with Tour Majesty's Allies, The Em-
peror of the Fftnoh and The Emperor of Rtutia,
Tonr Migesty has abstained from any aotif e In-
terlerenoe in those internal Distnrbanoes ; and
that the Eflbrts of Tonr Miyesty and Tonr Allies
haTO been direoted to bring about suoh improTod
Relations between the Porte and its Christian
Snbjeets as are not inoonsistent with the iOTereIgn
Rights of The Snltan.
''Wb thank Tonr Migesty ibr informing us
that the protraeted Negotiations which arose out
of the Acceptance by Prince Charlet of AAen-
MoUem of the GoTcmment of the Ikumbian Prin^
cipalities ha?e been happily terminated by an
Arrangement to which the Porte has gi?en its
ready Adhesion, and which has been sanctioned
by the Concurrence of all the Powers, Signataries
ofthe Treaty of 1866.
" Wb rejoice to be informed by Tour Higesty
that Resolutions in &T0ur of a more intimate
Union of the ProTinces of (kmada. Nova Scotia,
and New Bruntwieh have been passed by their
sereral Legislatures, and that Delegates duly au-
thorised, and representing all Classes of Colonial
Party and Opinion, haTC concurred In the Con-
ditions upon which suoh an Union may be best
eflfocted. We assure Tour Migesty that we will
give our most careful Attention to the BiU which,
in accordance with the Wishes of those Colonies^
Tour Migesty has directed to be submitted to us,
and which, by the Consolidation of Colonial In-
terests and Resouroes, will, we trust, gire Strength
to the sereral Prorlnces as Members of the same
Empire, and animeted by Feelings of Loyalty to
the same Sorereign.
«< Wb have heard with deep Sorrow that the
Calamity of Famine has pressed heaTily on Tonr
Majesty's Snlgeots in some Parts of India, We
thank Tour Migesty for Informing us that Instme*
tions were Issued to Tour Biigesty's GoTcmment
in that Country to make the utmost Exertions to
mitigate the Distreu which prevailed during the
Autumn of last Tear ; and we rejoice that tho
Blessing of an abundant Hanrest has sinoe that
Time materially impro?ed the Condition of tho
suflbring Districts.
** Wb haTO obserred with deep Conoem that
the perseTcring Efforts and unscrupulous Asser-
tions of treasonable Conspirators abroad haTC,
during the last Autumn, excited the Hopes of some
disalbcted Persons in Ireland, and the Apprehen.
sions of the loyal Population ; but we learn with
the greatest Satisfiustion that the firm yet tempe-
rate Exeroise of the Powers entrusted to tbo
ExecutiTc, and the Hostility manifosted against
the Conspiracy by Men of all Classes and Creeds,
haTC greatly tended to restore Public Confidence,
and rendered hopeless any Attempt to disturb tho
general Tranquillity. With Tour Majesty, wo
consequently trust that we may be enabled to
dispense with the Continuanoe of any exceptional
Legislation for that Part of Tour Migesty's
Dominions.
** With Tour Majesty we join in acknowledging,
with deep Thankfolness to Almighty God, the
great Decrease which has taken place In the
Cholers, and in the Pestilence which has attacked
our Cattle ; we regret that the continued Preva*
lence of the latter In some Foreign Countries^ and
its ooeaslonal Re-appearance in this, will still
render necessary some speeial Measnrss of Pre-
cautkm ; but wo trust that the Visitation of the
former will add to increased Attention to those
Sanitary Measures which Experience has shown
to be its best PrcTcnUTe.
^Wb thank Tour Majesty for ioformiog us
that, estimating as of the highest Importance an
adequate Supply of pure and wholesome Water,
Tonr Migesty has direoted the Issue of a Commis-
sion to Inquire Into the best Means of permanently
securing such a Supply for the Metropolis, and
for the principal Towns In densely-peopled Districts
of the Kingdom.
"Wb oonfey to Tour Migesty our humble Thanks
for informing us, that our Attention will again be
called to the State of the Reprasentation of the
People in Parliament ; and, with Tour Majesty,
we trust that our Deliberations, conducted in a
Spirit of Moderation and mutual Forbearance*
may lead to the Adoption of Measures which,
without unduly disturbing the Balance of Poll-
tioal Power, shall freely extend the Electi?* Fkaa.
chise.
17
Str Mo9i
{Fbbrvabt .% 1867]
Oraciout Speech. 18
** Wb humbly thank Your Msjeslj fisr infonning
v» that the frequent Oocorrenoeof Disagreements
between Emplojrera of Labour and their Work-
men, oannog muoh private Suffering and publio
Loss, and oooasionaUj leading, as is alleged, to
Aots of Outrage and Violenoe, has induoed Tour
Majesty to Issue a Commission to inquire into and
report upon the Organisation of Trades Unions
and other Associations, whether of WorkoMn or
Emplojers, with Power to suggest anj Improve-
ment of the Law for their mutual Benefit. We
assure Tour Majesty that any Parliamentary
Powers whioh may be necessary for making that
Inquiry eflbctiTO will be readily gif en by us.
^Wb convey to Tour Mijesty our humble Thanks
for baring directed Bills to be laid before us for
the Extension of the beneficial Prorisions of the
Factory Aots to other Trades specially reported
on by the Royal Commission on the Employment
of Children, and for the better Regulation, ao-
cording to the Principle of those Acts, of Work-
shops where Women and Children are largely
employed.
" Wb thank Tour Migesty for informing us that
the Condition of the Mercantile Marine has at-
tracted the serious Attention of Tour Blajesty,
and that Measures will be submitted to us with a
▼lew to increase the Efficiency of that important
Serrice.
"Wb learn with Satisfaction that Relaxations
hsTC been lately introduced into the Nayigation
Laws o{ France ; that Tour Majesty has expressed
to The Emperor of the French Tour Readiness
to submit to Parliament a Proposal for the Ex-
tinction, on equitable Terms, of the Exemptions
from local Charges on Shipping which are still
eigoyed by a limited Number of Indifiduals in
BritUh Ports; and that llis Imperial Majesty
has, in anticipation of this Step, already admitted
SriHsh Ships to the Advantage of the new Law.
We will giro our careful Attention to the Bill
upon this Subject which Tour Majesty has directed
to be forthwith laid before us;
«< Wb humbly assure Tour Blajesty that we will
give our most serioua Consideration to the Bill
which is to be submitted to us for making better
ProTision fbr the Arrangement of the Af&drs of
Railway Companies which are unable to meet
their Engagements ; as well as to any Measures
for improring the Management of sick and other
Poor in the Metropolis, and for a Re«distribution
of some of the Charges for Relief therein.
" OuB most careful Attention will be given to
the Measures for the Amendment of the Law of
Baokruptoyy and tho Consolidatioii of the Courts
of Probate and Divorce and Admiral^ ; also to
the Means of disposing, with greater Despatch
and Frequency, of the increasing Business in the
Superior Courts of Conunon Law and at the
Assises.
'* Wb humbly thank Tour Majesty fiyr informing
us that the Relations between Landlord and
Tenant in IreUind have engaged the anxious
Attention of Tour Majesty, and that a Bill will
be laid before us, which, without interfering with
the Rights of Property, will offer direct Encou-
ragement to Occupiers of Land to improve their
Holdings, and provide a umple Mode of obtaining
Compensation for permanent Improvements.
" With Tour Majesty, we pray that our La-
bours may, under the Blessing of Providence,
conduce to the Prosperity of the Country and
the Happiness of Tour People."
LoBD DELIMEBE: My Lords, in
rising to second this Address, I must ren-
tore, in the first place, to ask for your
Lordships' indulgence, which I am satia&ed
was never yet refused. I have been some
time a Member of your Lordships' House,
but I have neyer before yentured to address
you ; and though I cannot say that I am a
young Member in any sense of the word,
I am sure that, whateyer indulgence your
Lordships would extend to the youngest
Member of your House will not be with-
held fh>m me. I find myself in a position
of no ordinary difficulty. I find myself
like a man placed before an oyerwhelming
feast who, with the best intentions, ** hath
not stomach for it all." The bill of fare
is so large, that I can only yenture to
select a lew dishes; or to speak more
seriously, there are matters so yarious,
so yast, and of such great and para*
mount importance contained in the Queen's
Speech, that eyen if I were disposed to
trespass on your Lordships' time at any
length — which I am not — it would require
more yast and yaried knowledge than I
haye any claim to, to deal with them with
that justice which many of the subjects
command.
With regard to the first paragraph, inti-
mating the existence of cordial relations
with all foreign Powers, the assurance it
conyeys, although of the old stereotyped
character, has, under present ciroumstanoes,
far more than its usual significance, and
will be receiyed generally, I am sure, in a
spirit of yery deep and yery earnest thank-
fulness. When we look Imck on the last
year — ^wben we consider the eiztnM>rdinar7
19
Aidre$ifo
(LOBDSt
Sir Mjfe%iji fm
M
number of erentB crowded within that
brief space— how kingdoms have been over-
thrown, djnaBties changed, battles waged
and won, Enrope dismembered and re-
oonsfmotedy we can scarcely imagine that
all these things, having taken place within
BO small a space— almost within a few
weeks^shoold have yet assumed a charac-
ter of such permanent durability as to
promise to be lasting institutions, and
afford a reasonable hope that the result of
all these commotions would be to secure
the peace of Europe. I fervently hope it
may be so.
The next paragraph in the Speech deals
with the questions pending between this
country and the Government of the
United States ; and I am sure your Lord-
ships will hear with satisfaction that it
is likely that the differences which have
existed between the two Governments may
soon be amicably settled by arbitration.
The noble Lord at the head of Foreign
Af^rs deserves great credit for the course
he has taken on this subject. It requires
more courage to pursue a course of concilia-
tion, than one of irritation and resistance,
and I hope the wisdom of such a course will
be generally acknowledged, and that it will
lay the foundation of lasting ftiendly rela-
tions between the two countries.
Your Lordships will be sorry to hear
that the war between Spain and the
Bepublics of Chile and Peru still con-
tinues ; but your Lordships will bo glad
to hear that there is a fair prospect of
bringing about improved relations between
Turkey and its Cretan subjects. With
respect to the proposed Confederation of
the British Provinces in North America,
I feel that the wel&re and well-being of
that country can only be considered as
second to our own. The cheerfulness with
which necessarily imposed self-sacrifices
have been borne, the resolute attitude op-
posed to the Fenian insurrection, and the
universal loyalty invariably displayed to-
wards the British Crown, must always
command our highest respect and conside-
ration for the Canadian people, and render
it a matter of pleasure as well as policy
to draw as closely as possible tlie bonds
of union between us. I am sure, also,
that your Lordships will be glad to hear
that Her Majesty s Government do not
consider it necessary to continue the sus-
pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and
that is one of the best evidences of the
wisdom of the course which has been
pursued by the Executive. We are eJl of
Lord IMatMr^
us wilHng to bear testimony to the ad-
mirable mixture of firmness and concilia-
tion which characterized the Administration
of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of
Eimberley), and I hope the noble Lord
now at the head of affaira in Ireland (the
Marquess of Aberoom) will prove himself
no unworthy successor ; and I trust that,
without having to recor to stringent mea-«
sures, we may see the end of this deplor-
able, but happily unsncoessful, attempt of
a party of misguided men to subvert all
lawful authority in Ireland. In connectioa
with this I may allude to another topic ia
another part of the Speech, but which is
so closely interwoven with it that one is
in fact a continuance, if not an equal part
and parcel of the other — ^I mean that
alluding to the relations between Landlord
and Tenant. There are two much-vexed
questions always supposed to lie at the root
of all Irish grievances — the Established
Church, and the land system as applied
in Ireland. The first of these we ar^
not now called upon to discuss, bat
the .other is a question of great im-
portance, which concerns the whole ooun*
try — * the owner of land, the occupier
of land, the Boman Catholic priest, and
the Protestant clergyman. It affects every
one, and there can be no doubt that it is
a matter of very great difficulty and of
very great importance. Some are of opi-
nion that legislation is necessary; but
othen say that legislation would only be
an interference between capital and labour,
and that it must be left between the man
who lets the land and the man who holds
it; that it must be left to the natural
course of things to be set right. I am
sorry to say the natural course of things
has been in operation for a considerable
length of time, and it has not done much
for it yet. I only mention this to show
the value of what I trust will be the
action of Parliament upon the subject. I
am glad that Her Majesty's Government
have taken the question in hand, and
I trust it will be satisfactorily settled
by a Government at the head of which
is my noble Friend, himself an Irish pro-
prietor; and I may be allowed to say
before his face it is an additional qualifi-
cation for settling the question that his
whole life has been an unvarying testi-
mony of his practical anxiety for &e wel*
fare of all whom Providence has placed
under him. We do not want securities
for men who have neither capital nor en-
terprize; but we do want security that
SI
mrma
(Vbbkva&t 5| 1867)
ffraetoui Spuch. M
the man who ham both, and who roends
bfldi upon the land 'that he falU^ ahonld
Bot be d^riTed of the iraita of hia in-
daitiy, or that the landlord afa^nld reap
the whole of the adyantagea whioh hia
antaprine and indnatry haye conferred
apon the land. If Her Majeaty'a Gorem*
meat can do thia, they will do more to
settle Uie agitation in Irehmd, and to re-
sfeore peace and tranquillity to the oonn-
try, than by the moat atringent meaaore
of ooeraon which it ia poasiUe to propoee,
8ach meaanrea are bat the irritating,
tfaongh alaa neoeanry, remediea that attack
the manileat aymptoma of the diaeaae ;
the other wonld go far towards laying the
aze to the root of the evil itself.
My Lordsy the next pointa to which I wish
to call yonr Lordahipa' attention are the
easea of tiie oholera and the cattle plague.
I am happy to learn that the former dia-
eaae iq>pear8 to be expiring ; but there are
Bigna that the cattle plague may again
beak out. My Lords, I come from a
part of the country which, unhappily, suf-
fered oonaiderably from ita rayagea, and I
belieye that our aad experience haa left us
80 entirely in the dark as to any means of
pieyention or cure, that if it should unhap-
pily break out again, there are no better
meana to atop ita rayagea than thoae that
were before reaorted to-— that is, to stamp
oat the diaease by slaughtering the animals
tiiat are infected. Then as to sanitary mea-
iorea, nothing can be better than an ade-
quate aapply of pure and wholeaome water,
respecting whidi Her Majesty's Qoyem-
ment announce they are about to issue a
Commiaaion of Inquiry eapeoially with ro-
gard to the metropolis. If this can be
effected, it will be the best preseryatiye
that can be deyised against cholera. In
addition to this, there are several other
measoree of administration whioh are pro-
posed— a meaaure for making better pro-
vision for the arrangement of the affairs
of railways, for improving tiie manage-
ment of the sick and other poor in the
metropolia, and also varioua legal reforms
and improyementa to whioh I have no
doubt your Lordahipa' attention will in
due tiuM be called.
There are one or two other important
subjeeta to which I wish to flJlnde be-
fore^ I ait down. The first ia the or-
ganixation of capital and labour. I be-
lieve that l^fi^ation can do little in
thia matter except by laying down sound
economical principlea and protecting every
man in tiie freedom of. hia own industry.
I must Bay this fcr the working men of
the kingdom, my Lords, that I have al-
waya found them amenable to reaaon. I
have had, in one way or another, a good
deal to do with working men, and I have
always found that they were open to
reaaon. But, my Lords, I cannot say aa
much for the men who lead and guide
them ; men with ready tonguea and mia-
chievoua brains, anxioua at any price to
secure their own momentary importance,
and careless of the dangera and difficultiea
into which they are leading those who place
only too implicit confidence in tbem. I am
willing to admit that tradea unions were, in
their origin, perfectly legal, and might even
in parts of their operation be beneficial.
So long as the capitalists of this country
were making large profita, it waa reason-
able that a portion of thoae profita should
be transferred to labour, in order to ame-
liorate their condition and improve their
wages. But, then, when profits had reached
their minimum, when the trade of the
country was in a state of collapse, is it
reaaonable that the rate of wagea ahould
still be insisted on being kept up to the
same high standard ? My lK>rds, I want
the eyes of the working men to be opened
to their own suioidal policy. They are
killing the goose that laid the golden egga.
The tradea unions may decide that the
working man shall not take less than a
given rate of wages; but they cannot
compel the employer to give those wages.
^ One man may bring a hone unto the brink,
Bat flye-and-twentf cannot make him drink."
It has been well said that capital ia a coy
nymph; and that if she be too roughly
wooed she is apt to fly away. My Lords, are
there not signs that she is preparing to fly
away? Carpenters' work is now, to a
large extent, imported from abroad ; the
frames of doors and windows are now pre-
pared abroad and imported into this coun«
tnr. It is important, then, to consider
what, under these circumstances, ought to
be done. With respect to the state of
trade at home, I can speak for myself. I
have had a good deal of work done within
the last two or three years ; and last year
I was told by a master builder, whom I
employed, *' My Lord, if I had this work
to undertake again I would not make the
same terms with your Lordship that I
have done; I wonld charge one-third
more in price, and I would not enter into
any contract as to the time when it should
be done." How singular is the conduct
of the London shipwrights. Think for a
28
Addreuio
(LOBDS)
Sir
24
moment what that oondnct is. The men
have struck for 7«. a day; the^ refnse to
work for 6$, 6J. a day ; that is, for over
£100 a year — a hirger income than thai
which is enjoyed hy many Goyemment
clerks and poor curates. But that is not
all. They are williog, they say, to take
6«. 6d, a day, if an excuse can he made for
them, and it can he made to appear that
they are getting 7«. a day, hecause under
no emergency is it to be supposed that
their rate of wages is to be lowered. This,
then, is the state of things. The men
have refused 6$, 6d. ; that is to say, they
have refused an income of more than £100
a year. Their families are thrown upon
the parish, and the wealthy are called
upon to subscribe for them, and out of the
charity of the people of England these
destitute people are to be supported who
have refused 6«. Sd. a day ; and more than
that, the parish rates will be raised on
people who earn 5s, a day to compel them
to support men who refuse to work for
6«. 6d. One thing more. The trades
unions, when they go in for an increase of
wages, promise an immediate gain to their
members. Eyerybody can understand the
advantage of an increase of wages. But
when they go fSorther, when they interfere
not only for the purpose of raising the
rate of wages, but when they interfere
with the freedom of labour of each other ;
when they insist that a man shall not be
allowed to use those abilities which God
has giyen him — that he shall not earn as
much as he can by the labour of his hands
for the support of his family, but insist
on bringing all down to one low level, so
that the skilful workman shall not do
more than the most ignorant and idle — if
this is to be allowed to take place, then,
my Lords, I do not think I use too strong
words when I say that it is absolute
wickedness. One word more, my Lords,
and I have done with the trades unions.
In a speech deliyered at Birmingham in
1860, uie hon. Member for Birmingham
says that —
" Working msn haTS anooiations, trade aoeie-
iies, ofganiiations, and I want to ask them why
it if that all theae Tarioiis organiiationa through-
out the ooantry eonld not be made use of for the
purpoee of obtaining their political rights/'
Now, my Lords, after all that we have
heard and seen of the way in which
trades unions numage their own affairs
-~ how carefully -they treat the tick-
lish relations of capital and labour — with
what caution and forethought they treat
Zord Dtihrnwe
the question of labour so as not to preaa
too hardly upon the interests of the em-
ployers—-how tender they are bf the
workman's wages— I ask, are they the
people whom, in the event of their having
a Beform Bill, with a considerable exten*
sion of the fnmchise— are they the people
whom, in such an eventi you would wish
to see possessed of the larger portion of
the political power of this country ? A
question has been raised whether there
is to be a Beform Bill or not ; but the
question is now answered, and there is to
be a Beform Bill. It must be admitted
that the present time is unquestionably
favourable for its consideration. There
is fortunately no suffering in the country.
The commercial panio has passed away.
It has pleased Qod that there should be
no disturbance at home or abroad, men's
minds are full of the subject. The people
of England have undoubtedly spoken tneir
opinions very decidedly on the subjeot.
It can no longer be said that there is no
craving for Beform. There are large
numbm of the working classes whoia
every man in England would be glad to
see admitted to the franchise. I believe
that if you were to poll all England, a
very small percentage of the population
would be found to say that it would be
better to have no Beform. Another ques*
tion is, what is the Beform Bill to be ?
and here there may be some difficulty
about the matter. If the past has not
decided what a Beform Bill should be, it
has clearly pointed out that which it ought
not to be ; for it has been pretty well es-
tablished that the country will not have a
hasty and ill-considered and incomplete
Beform Bill, nor one that will not set the
question at rest for some time. These are
tiie qualities that I hope to see developed ;
but, above all things, it must be such a
Bill that while it shall not dispose alto-
gether of the question, shall set it at rest
for a considerable time. I think, if
I may use such a phrase, that it is
simple nonsense to be talking of finality
in reference to Beform, you might as
well talk of finality in reference to steam
or gas ; for in an age of progress such as
this in which we live there cannot be such
finality. What was sufficient for our fathers
was not enough for us. What will satisfy us
will probably not do for those who shall
come after us. Whether it be a Libe-
ral or a Conservative Government, if it
is to stand, it cannot stand still ; its pro-
gress must be upward and onward, and
S5
SirMM
(FsBiKtTiBT 5, 1867) OrariouB Speech.
26
it« motto most be SxeMor. The fact Ib
that the prograss of ednoation and the
roread of knowledge — and especially of
the knowledge of political economy— has
brought about this, that, whether for good
or for eyil, the people of this country will
to a great extent goyem themselres. The
Government has not power to control this
fading, but it has the power of direction ;
and tUs power is that which must chiefly
be exeroised. The wheel will no dotlbt
go round and the stream flow on, and the
nation at large must move on with it. The
object of a good GK>Temment must, under
those circumstances, be to direct the wheel
into the right groove, and to turn the
stream into its proper channel, so that it
shall be a fertilizing current instead of a
devastating flood. A Beform Bill framed
in that spirit will, I hope, be introduced
by Her Majesty's Ministers ; and a Bill so
fhtmed wiU, I have no doubt, recommend
itself to the consideration of all classes of
the people. When I mention all classes, I
must except those who, under the name of
Beform, would produce revolution, and
who, instead of tiie adequate representa-
tion of all classes, would prefer to see
established the dominant superiority of
one class. I would say to such persons,
'' Show yourselves in your true colours;
do jou want a true representation of the
varied feelings and interests of this coun-
try by honest, earnest men, convinced of
the truth of the principles they advocate,
or do you wish that the representative
body of this kingdom should be reduced
into a mere transcript of the popular feel-
ing of the day, and, indeed, of tiie feeling
of the most suffering, and, therefore, the
most impressionable, part of the people of
the kingdom?" In making these remarks,
I must not be understood as contending
that they Aimish an argument against all
Reform. On the contrary, there is no
Member of your Lordships' House more
sincerely convinced than I am of the ab-
solute necessity of a considerable exten-
sion of the franchise as well as a re-distri-
bution of seats. The considerations to
which I refer were simply an argument in
favour of great caution in de&ngwith
our system of representation, as made up
of parts which, althou(^ they may each of
them be open to objection and capable of
amendment, have yet worked well together,
and made up a useful and harmonious
whole. It is an argument in favour of a
judicious, cautious, and temperate Beform ;
of a hesitation neither cowardly nor un-
wise over every footstep before it is defl->
nitively planted on that path where on-
ward progress, be it to safety or to ruin, is
fearfully easy— but return is impossible.
My Lords, I have now done; and
I have only to thank your Lordships
for the patience with which you have
listened to me. But I will just add that
the year that has passed has been one
of suffering and of sorrow, owing to the
prevalence of pestilence and other causes,
yet during its course we have been spared
the miseries of war; and I hope that, so
fkr as we can judge, there is a better pros-
pect before us for the future. And it is in
accordance with this promise that the Go-
vernment are about to propose what I
think, without resorting to enthusiastic
language, may be described as a very noble
catalogue of measures which are likely to
produce great good to the country ; and it
is now to the energy and sagacity of your
Lordships' and of the other House of Par-
liament, and also to your courtesy and for-
bearance, that we must look for the hope
of realizing a plenteous harvest from this
''fEur promise of the opening year." My
Lords, in conclusion, I beg to second the
Address which has just been moved by my
noble Friend. [See Page 14.]
£abl BUSSELL: My Lords, I am
happy to say with respect to the Address,
which has been moved and seconded in a
manner so fair and so temperate, that I
can see no reason why we on this side of
the House should offer to it any objection.
But, with regard to the Speech from the
Throne, I think it necessary to make a
few observations. No one can complain
either of the brevity of that Speech, or of
want of variety in the topics with which
it deals. I shall touch merely upon those
points which I deem to be of the greatest
interest and importance. The first which
invites attention is the late war in Europe.
In dealing with that question I would
rather refer to a sentence which occurred
in the Speech of Her Majesty at the end
of last Session, than comment upon the
very short paragraph in the Speech before
us. At the close of last Session Her Ma-
jesty was pleased to declare-^
" Her Majert/ cannot hare been an indiflbrent
speotator of oyente which hare seriously aflbcted
the positions of So?ereigns and Prinoes with whom
Her Mi^eety is oonneoted bj the closest ties of
relationship and fiiendship ; but Her Jdajestj has
not deemed it expedient to take part in a contest
in which neither the honour of Her Crown nor
the interest of Her people demuided aa^ aeUTC
intonrentioA oa Her part,"
27
Aiirmi^
(LOSDS)
Eer Mfafetiff M
I entifdj agree with that vTopoaiion. It
appears to me to state fully and Batisflus-
ionly the reason why Her Majesty's GK>-
Yemment did not interfere in the war be-
tween Prossia and Austria. In the Speech
read. Her Majesty is made to say—
" I hope that tbo Termioation of the War in
wUoh ProMia, Anitria, and Italy hare been en-
ftged may lead to the Establiihment of a durable
reaoe in Europe."
My Lords, we all hope the same; but
although I, for one, sincerely hope that
will be the case, this is a point on which,
I am sorry to say, I am not sanguine.
We cannot help seeing that ever since the
aggression upon Denmark, two years ago,
in opposition to all treaties and all faith
hitherto observed with respect to treaties,
a spirit of aggression has prevailed, or
seemed to prevail, in Europe, especially in
the case of one Power, which may in the
future lead to great calamities. The sub-
ject is one, therefore, with regard to which
it is impossible not to have some appre-
hension. I trust it wiU not be so, but it
is impossible to ignore the possibility of
such a catastrophe ; still more, if we refer
to rumours afloat on the subject. The
next topic which is referred to in the
Boyal Speech is that with regard to the
United States—
" I haye raggetted to the GoTemment of the
United States a Mode by which Qaeetions pending
between the Two Conntriee arising out of the late
Ciyil War may receive amicable Solution, and
which, if met, at I trust it will be, in a corre-
ipondlng Spirit, will remove all Grounds of pos-
sible Misunderstanding, and promote Relations
of cordial Friendship."
I believe it is not quite the usual and
grammatical construction of a sentence to
talk about meeting a mode ; but with re-
gard to the substance of the paragraph, I
see no reason why, because I, when at the
head of the Foreign Office, did not accept
certain propositions which were made to
me, the noble Lord now at the head of
that Department should not oome to a
different conclusion. I, myself, in dealing
with questions relating to America — as,
for instance, in the case of the Bay Islands
— took a course more in conformity with
the views of the American Qovemment
than my predecessors in Office had deemed
it their duty to pursue. The honour of
the oountry is no^ I assume, compromised
in the proposal which the Government
have made. Indeed, I should hear with
extreme and painfial surprise that the
noUe Earl opposite had consented to an^
solution of the queitioa of whioh this
ArJjBiMisff
could be asserted. I condude that fl&e
papers on the subject wiU be laid before
Parliament at the earliest possible period,
so that we shaU be informed very soon
what proposition has been made, and whe-*
ther it has been met in the spirit whioh
the Ck>vemment seem so confidently to
predict. There are various topics in the
Speech which I do not think it necessary
to deal with now. They are measures of
great importance, and I trust that when
they are produced your Lordships will find
that they will be such as will be oon*
ducive to the welfare of the country.
Passing over, however, these topics for the
present, I come at once to a subject on
which the attention of the country is fixed
— I mean the subject of Parliamentary
Reform. Upon that question the Speech
firom the Throne tells us—
Tour Attention^ will again be called to the
State of the Representation of the People in Par-
liament; and I trust that jonr Deliberations* oon-
dooted in a Spirit of Moderation and mntnal For-
bearanoe, may lead to the Adoption of Measures
whioh, without nndoljr disturbing the Balance of
politioal Power, shall freelj extend the £leoti?e
Franehise."
I may, I hope, conclude from this para-
graph— ^which is* somewhat mysteriously
wo^ed — ^that a Bill will very soon be in-
troduced into the other House of Parlia-
ment dealing with Beform; and that it will
contain provisions so fair and satisfiiotory
that that House may be able to meet and
consider it in a liberal spirit, and to give it
its support. Having paid a good deal of
attention to this subject, and having been
much connected with it, I must request
^our Lordships to allow me to state how
it has arrived at the not very satLsAiotory
position in which it at present stands.
There was, unfortunately, incorporated
wi^ the Beform Act— against the wishes
of its framers — a dense called the Chan-
dos Clause, whioh introduced into the
electoral bodv in the counties a set of per-
sons who, I should say, were about the most
dependent class existing in the country
— namely, the £50 tenants-at-will. It was
urged against the proposal that those te-
nants would be sure to vote in a particular
way ; that they were, in fact, so aependent
upon their landlords tiiat they would vote
as they were bidden. However, the
House accepted the clause, and the Qo-
vemment of Lord Grey did not think
it wise to interfere with its decision.
The oonseqnence was that the Act, whioh
might otherwise have settled the question
of Beform ton fifty years, subsequently
S9
mrJt»a
{Febboasx 5, 1867)
Oratiout Speteh. SO
beeame the sabjeot of diaooBsion in the
House of OommonB. It waa then pro*
poeedy by an hon. Hember of great respec-
tabUitVy to reduce the county occupation
firanchiae horn £50 to £10, and the House
agreed to tiie second reading of a Bill
brought in for that purpose fifteen years
ago. But it was then thought that if
changes were to be made in the Beform
Act, there were other classes of persons
who also ought to haye the elective fran*
diise, and that their admission to it would
strengthen the Constitution, would give
additional force to what may be cidled
the garrison of the Constitution, and
enable a large class of deserving men in
boroughs, renting houses somewhat under
jCIO, to take a greater interest in political
afifldrs. These deserving persons com-
prised the well-doing artisans in the towns
of this country ; and it was therefore pro-
posed that they should Be admittod along
with occupiers at a lower rent than £50
in counties. This last proposal was
strongly opposed. It was said, ''You
must not degrade the franchise." That
was the phrase constantly used. Accord-
ingly, when the noble 'Earl opposito (the
Etfl of Derby) was in power in 1859, it
was declared that the extension of the fran-
chise must be only in a lateral direction —
that no proposal for lowering of the suf-
frage in towns could be admitted or listened
to. That, as I conceived, was a very
great defect in the measure of the noble
Earl, excluding, as it did, by a new Be-
form Bill, every man, however deserving,
whose rent happened to be under £10
from the franchise. That Bill had also
another defect— it would have tended to
restore nomination boroughs, for it was
quite clear that by certain provisions of it
landowners living 200 miles off would be
enabled to go and vote, and thus swamp
theinhabitontoof the borough. I thought^
therefore, that it was my duty to endea-
vour to persuade the House to reject the
Bill, tnie House of Commons listened to
me, and passed a Besolution which the
Government were obliged either to accept or
else they were bound to give up their BilL
.The Government gave up their measure
and dissolved Parlmment. It is true that
they afterwards intimated that they thought
the borough franchise might be lowered,
but that was only when a Motion of
Want of Confidence in them was brought
forward by the Max^ueas of Hartington.
Since then the lowering of the franchise
baa been constantly opposed; and brfore
the elections in 1866, it waa declared by
the right hon. Gentleman the Member for
Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) that, most
happily, the House of Commons had re-
fused to " degrade" the suffrage. That,
however, was not the real question, but
whether the artisans of this country, the
best of them living in houses somewhat
under £10, should, or should not, have the
power of voting for Members of Parlia-
ment. I made a variety of proposals upon
that subject, but they were all to the same
effect. There was not one of those which
I do not still consider to be a good proposi-
tion, though some may have been better
than others; but the party now in power
constently and openly opposed them aU.
Then, my Lords, what happened last Ses-
sion i The Government of that day thought
it right again to introduce a measure on
that question ; and I think your Lordships
will see that the proposition to admit to
the franobise in counties tenanteata value
somewhat under £50, and in towns a
number of artisans occupying houses at a
value somewhat under £10, need not have
frightened anybody, especially as a very
similar proposal had been carried into effect
with your Lordships' consent in respect to
Ireland, where the occupation franchise is
now fixed by Act of Parliament at £12 in
counties and £8 in boroughs. By our Bill
of last year we proposed an occupation
franchise of £14 in counties and £7 in
boroughs. It might at least have been
diBpassionately considered, but how was it
met ? Our proposals were met in a man*
ner which I have always considered was
neither honourable to those concerned, nor
safe for the country ; for it has been the
causeof what the noble Lord the Seconder
of the Address complained of, when he
said that there were persons who, as he
stated, were misleading the artisan classes.
The noble Earl opposito thought it necea-
sary last year to make a declaration as to
the course which he should pursue witii
regard to our Bill. I have refenred to the
speech made by the noble Earl, in which
he found fault with my conduct in regard
to his Bill of 1 859. The noble Earl said--
"How that BUI wm anoounfcered, defefttod,
and jp[ot rid of, perhaps the noble Earl has
now forgotten. I oan aMore him 1 have not."-^
[3 Barnard, clxzxi. 100.]
Then, going on to make a declaration of
the course which he should himself pursue
with respect to any measure introduced by
the thra Government, on February 6, 1866,
the noble Earl proceeded as foUowa s—
31
JJireiiio
{LOBSB)
Sir Mafeiljf tm
S2
*' I wni gpi'Mi no opinion vpoo thoir BMMure
until I hftTO Mon it. I hope it will be mioh a
moAtare u I shall be able to rapport, that it will
be a reaionable and aatiafiMtory lettlement of
this mat and important qoeetion, which I be-
lie?e it ii dedrable to settle, and settle onee for
i^ And I promise the noble Earl another thing
—that his BUI shall haTo &ir pUy ; that it shaU
not be thmst aside b/ any underhand methods ;
that th«re shall be no fiietioos morements or com-
binations against it on the part of those who can
oombine for nothing else ; that it shall be dealt
with on its merits ; that if we can approve it we
shall gi?e it oar oordial support ; but that, on the
other hand, if we disapprove it and think it is
imperfoet, inadequate, or dangerous, and, above
all, if we think it one leading to future agitation
within a brief pcsiod of a perilous character, then
with whatever means we may possess we shall do
our best to throw it out by fidr debate and honour-
able opposition."— [8 Hantard, olxxzi. 101.]
Mj Lords, it is my priTilege to giro my
opinion on this matter, and I must say 1
think our Bill did not haye '• fair play ;"
that it was enooontered by ''underhand
methods" and by ''fiustious moyements
and combinations on the part of those
who conld oombine for nothing else;**
that it was not "dealt with npon its
merits ;'* and that it was not met by *' fair
debate and honourable opposition." That,
my Lords, is a statement of my opinion. It
is hardly necessary that I should now
trace the career of that Bill through the
House of Commons, but I may state what
I hold to be a teir opposition. Our plan
for reforming the county occupation fran-
chise was by placing it at £14. It was
proposed, on the other hand, that £20
should be the limit fixed. That was, I
think, a fair mode of meeting the Bill, and
an honourable way of dea^dng with the
question ; and if it had been adopted by
the House of Commons, it would haye
formed a basii for the county franchise.
Now, let me state what I regard as a
course of quite a different character. It
was said that a Bill proposing in the first
place to deal with the franchise in Eng-
land, similar to one which had been passed
in the case of Ireland, was not sufficient
It was proposed that tiie measures for the
re-distribution of seats should be dealt with
in the same Bill as the franchise ; and that
proposal was supported, not by those who
wished to see a great and complete mea-
sure of Beform, but by those who were
opposed to any change in the present sys-
tem, and who thought it would be incon-
sistent with the public interests to haye
any Beform at all. That proposal was de-
feated; but it was afterwanb agreed by the
Ooyemment that the Be-distnbution Bill
XarlSn9$$tt
should be grafted upon the Bill for ex-
tending the franchise. Again, when we
submitted our measure proyiding for the
re-distribution of the seats, it was sought
to graft upon that the f\urther proposal
that the purt of the Bill dealing with the
re-distribution of the seats should be takea
first and disposed of before proceeding with
the other jfmrt of the question. Now, if
your Lordships will consider that in 1832
the question of the simple re-distribution
of seats occupied from the beginning of
July till the end of September, and that
our draft Bill contained, not only pro-
posals for taking away Members from cer«
tain boroughs, but also for grouping dif-
ferent towns together with a yiew, if
possible, to preyent bribery and corrup-
tion, you will at once perceiye the ineyit-
able result. Had the House of Commons
decided upon proceeding with that portion
of the measure first, there would haye
been such lengthened controyersies eyery
day, not only upon the different places
that were to be grouped, but also as to
one borough being ten miles distant and
another not more than eight, and the like
minuiia, that it would haye taken pro-
bably from the beginning of July to the
end of September to get tiirough Commit-
tee, and it would then haye been quite
impossible before the close of the Session
to haye had any discussion on the real
question—namely, whether a £6, a £7,
or an £8 rating, or any other franchise,
should be adopted for boroughs. That waa
the way in which the then Opposition
eyaded dealing with the Bill of the late
Ooyemment on its merits. They endea-
youred to defeat it by underhand proceed-
ings, and by a proposal contrary' to the
rules of the House of Commons, and the
practice of honourable opposition. It was
contrary to the regulation that all parties
have adopted for many years, that of giring
notice of any important Amendment, and
placing it on the Votes in a printed form,
so that those who haye to meet it should
know what that Motion is. That step was
taken without any such notice, and with-
out any knowledge on the part of the Go-
vernment that any Motion was about to
be made. The Ooyemment were not aware
of the Amendment till within fiye or ten
minutes before it was moyed, and they had
come down prepared to deal with a Motion
of which notice had been giyen in the re-
gular way. That was the course adopted
by the Oppoation. I call that an unfair
and underhand course. I say tbatii with
Sd
Set Most
(Febbuabt 5| 1867}
OraeiouB Spe&eh. 34
regard to the Bill of the late Government
it was not met on its merits, but an at-
tempt was made to form a combination
against it on the part of those who were
unable to combine on any other subject.
If I am well-founded in my history of
what then took place, the noble Earl op-
posite has no occasion to '* thank God
that he was not as other men/' nor even
as those Publicans of 1859, because he
was quite as bad as those Publicans. With
respect to the Bill which the noble Earl
is about to produce, I only hope that it
will be produced soon ; that it will con-
tain such provisions that it may receive
the support of the House of Commons and
of your Lordships. For my own part, I
neither promise to support it nor do I
threaten opposition to it. If it be a good
Bill, no doubt we shall be happy to see it
carried. If it be a bad Bill, with an in-
complete or delusive franchise, it would
only lead to that to which the noble Earl
last year justly objected. If we think it
will lead on a future occasion to agita-
tion of a perilous character, it will be our
duty to oppose it. If the House of Com-
mons pass a fair Bill, and your Lordships
approve it, giving a great body of the
artisans of this country the privileges which
they are well fitted to exercise — ^if we im-
pose upon them the duty which they are
well fitted to perform, that of exercising
one of the most important functions which
can be exercised in a free country in voting
for representatives to Parliament ; in short,
in selecting men on whom the conduct,
power, faith, and freedom of this country
depend for many years— -if you give them
that advantage freely and fairly, and to a
proper extent, then you may hope to settle
this question. But if, on the other hand,
you endeavour by any tricks or shuffles to
cheat them of that fair right, and endea-
vour to give them less than that to which
they are entitled, you will not succeed,
and you will lay the foundation of future
agitation. I am aware that many of the
public meetings have declared in favour of
manhood suffrage, but hardly any on& in
either House of Parliament wishes for such
a suffrage, and if you give the working
classes of this country a fair proportion of
votes you may hope to settle this question
for a considerable time. But if you deal
with it unfairly and inadequately thbre
can be no better theme for agitation at the
General Election, which must take place
soon after the passing of such a Bill, than
that the present House of Commons
YOI^. CLXXXY. [thibd sskibs.]
cheated the country, and that it was ne-
cessary to have a new Eeform Bill and
new Members of Parliament who would
do their duty to their constituents more
honestly than the Members of the present
House of Commons. If I were an agi-
tator I would wish for no better theme.
The noble Earl having arrived at the con-
clusion that there ought to be a large
Reform, will, I trust, reduce the franchise
to such an extent that his measure will be
accepted by the country. We all know
very well that there are different methods
of reasoning which affect different minds.
Some people are very well convinced by
the inductive method ; others are more
convinced by the method of deduction.
Some like the algebraic, and others the
geometric method. But with regard to
noble Lords opposite there is no way which
succeeds so well as being in Office. The
noble Earl, in a speech delivered by him at
Liverpool in the course of the summer,
dwelt upon the great advantage arising
from a change of Government from time
to time. I quite agree with him in what
he said ; but there is a further advantage
which he did not mention — namely, that
when the noble Earl comes into Office he
perceives the truth of propositions which
he has been opposing for fifteen years. I
have only further to say that I trust the
measure which the Government have an-
nounced with respect to Ireland will have
all the merits which ought to belong to
our legislation on this subject — that it will
have no injurious effects on the rights of
property, but that it will enable tenants
to make improvements. If the noble Earl
secures those objects he will confer a great
advantage upon Ireland. The last time
the noble Earl was in Office he was parti-
cularly fortunate in the selection of his
Lord Lieutenant. Lord Eglinton per-
formed the duties of Lord Lieutenant in a
manner which won the respect and admi-
ration of all parties in Ireland and in this
country. I believe that he has been equally
fortunate in the selection of the present
Lord Lieutenant, who hos conducted him-
self in a manner to which no one can
object. Of course, the duties of a Lord
Lieutenant are those of Administration
solely. As the late Lord Wellesley said,
the duty of the Lord Lieutenant is to ad-
minister the law and not to alter it.
There are other questions of importance
affecting Ireland — among them that of
landlord and tenant — which, when we*have
got rid of Eeform, will deserve the atten-
C
S5
AdJrea to
ILORDSI
Jl&r Itysiiy on
36
tion of your Lordahips as much as any qnes-
tioB can. My noble Friend (the Earl of
£imberley)» when be was Lord Lieutenant,
made many raluable suggestionB in regard
to Ireland. Bat nothing can be under-
taken on the subject of Ireland without
the deepest consideration. The best inten-
tions are not enongh, but I do trust that
measures for the amelioration of the con-
dition of Ireland will be considered with
deliberation and will be carried. I thank
your Lordships for your attention, and
have only to add that I do not consider it
necessary to more any Amendment to the
Address.
The EiBL o» DERBY: My Lords, I
trust that, in addressing your Lordships, I
may be permitted to express my gratitude
to my noble Friends behind me for the
very succinct, clear, and able manner in
which they moved and seconded the Ad-
dress. I should hardly have thought it
possible to go through the varied topics of
a Speech from the Throne with so much
clearness, discretion, and brevity as was
done by my noble Friend who moved the
Address. There was not a single topic of
the Speech which he left untouched, and
not one which he did not touch upon with
the most perfect fairness and discretion.
I must also express my satisfaction that
the noble Earl who has just ^at down has
not found any matter for comment — cer-
tainly not for objection — in the Speech
from the Throne. I am more satisfied
with the coursiB which the noble Earl has
found it expedient to pursue than even
with his assurance that he does not intend
to move an Amendment to the Address.
In his somewhat lengthened discourse the
noble Earl — with the exception of one
important topic — has not commented on
the Speech, but has thought it necessary
to enter into an historical discussion as to
the progress 'or non-progress of Reform for
the last five-and-thirty years, and con-
cerning the various Bills, and discussions,
and disputes which have taken place. My
Lords, I may say, at the outset, that I
must decline to follow the noble Earl into
that part of his speech. It is our earnest
desire and hope that this great question of
Parliamentary Reform may meet with an
early and satisfactory settlement. Her
Majesty's Ministers having announced their
intention of bringing forward the question
at a very early period, I may at once re-
lieve the noble Earl's anxiety as to any
attempt at delay upon our part by saying
that upon the very earliest possible day —
Sari SwieU
I believe on Monday next — it is the in-
tention of my right hon. Friend the Chan*
cellor of the Exchequer to lay before
the House of Commons in detail the pro-
posal which Her Majesty's Government in-
tend to bring forward. But, my Lords, I am
compelled to say that there is no hope of a
satisfactory settlement of such a question
if it be taken up in the spirit and in the
temper which I am sorry to say the noble
Earl has manifested. If it be the inten-
tion to meet this question, not with the
view of considering what is best to be
done, but by bandying recriminations with
the opposite party, and with charging them
with unfairness, inconsistency, and double
dealing, and what not, and by carrying
the recrimination backwards to a period of
fifteen years or more, then I say, my
Lords, there is no hope of this question
arriving at a satisfactory settlement. In
that case I should deeply regret the course
which Her Majesty's Government have
been induced to pursue in raising a ques-
tion which can only lead to angry dis-
cussions without any probability of a
satisfactory result. My Lords, we do de-
sire to see this question satisfactorily
settled. If, however, we desire to see the
representation of the country placed upon
a sound basis— if we desire to see a settle-
ment of the question, which I do not say
should be final, but which shall render
unnecessary and improbable any agitation
with regard to further measures for a very
considerable time, then I say that such an
object cannot be attained by making the
question one of party and of political strife
for the purpose of obtaining Office or Par-
liamentary majorities. The subject must
be examined in a fair, deliberate, and dis-
passionate spirit. We must be prepared
to give and take — we must be prepared to
meet each other's views-— we must be
prepared, above all things, to cast away
all questions of party and all questions
of strife and political power. [^Lau^hter.'l
Noble Lords laugh ; but I say this, and
I am speaking from the deepest con-
viction in my own mind, that there
is no possible Ck>vemment in this coun-
try that could, at the present moment,
by itself carry a Reform Bill. The
noble Earl tried it last year, when he
thought he had a majority. He laid down
the broad principle, that no Government
was required or justified in bringing for-
ward a Reform Bill unless they thought
they had a reasonable prospect of being
able to carry it. I do not go quite so far
S7
S0rMoH
[FsBRVhXt 5| 1867]
Oru&iaut Sp&&ch.
88
m.UiB noUe Bail ; bat I say that in the
pmcnt state of paitieB no Goveniment —
le it on this side of the House or be it on
that side of the House — ean hope to cany
bjtheir own separate and distinct exertions
80^ a Befonn Bill aa they might think
the moat desirable. If this question is
to be settled it mnst be settled by mutaal
sooiproDsiBe, and by mutual forbearance,
aad not by bandying recriminations and
rqRtKsehea upon past discussions and past
difoeneefl. Although I cannot commend
the aeeoracy of the noble EarFs recapi-
tolatioa of what took place either in 1859
or 1866, I will not follow him into the
topic. I will not argue with him as to
the statement which the noble Earl made
that from the period extending from 1882
dovn to 1866 the desire and attempt of
the CooBeiratiye party was to keep the
borooglL franchise from being reduced
below £10, and to keep the county firan-
diise from being reduced below £60. I
nay, howerer, say that, with regard to
the comity finmchise, it is notorious that
in 1859 the then €k)Temment proposed a
kzger redaction of the county fhrnchise
and a greater extension than has been
proposed since that period. But the sense
of the House, of the public, and of the
sonntry waa pronounced against the pro«
poiaL It waa, I think, a matter open to
sigument, that the county and borough
frmehise ahonld stand upon the same
footing ; and it was in aocordanoe with this
riew that when we proposed hugely to
reduce the county franchise we declined to
reduce the borough franchise, so that we
might maintain an equality betwixt the
two. That proposali however, was not
sanctioned by the country or Parliament,
and haa never been introduced since, it
having been generally admitted that there
should be a difference with regard to the
amount and character of the qualificatipn
of the counties and boroughs. From that
time the noble Earl certainly has not
given ua many opportunities of expressing
oar opinion upon the subject. Since 1860
down to 1866 he was perfectly satisfied to
leave the whole question of the franchise
and Beform alone; and it was not till
last year that his newly awakened zeal for
the benefit of the artisans and the work*
ing dasaes led him to bring forward a hasty,
imperfect, and crude proposition. How
the Bill was defeated is matter of history.
It waa not defeated solely by the political
(^ponenta of the noUe Earl, but by many
cf those who, being his snpportersi felt
the measure was so ill-considered, so in-
complete, so unsatisfactory, and at the
same time so dangerous, that, although the
House of Commons had unanimously as-
sented to the principle of a Bill extensively
lowering the franchise, and introducing
material changes, yet, when they came to
discuss the detcdls of the measure, they
felt they could not give it their support.
It was not, therefore, by the opposition
mainly of Uie opponents of the then Go-
vernment, but practically . by the oppo-
sition of those who were generally sup-
porters of the Government and Mem-
bers of the Liberal party, that that
Bill was pronounced to be one to
which the House of Commons could not
give its sanction. 1 beg your Lordships'
pardon for having been led into taking so
much notice of the topics that have been
introduced by the noble Earl. I will not
say a word further about the measure
which Her Majesty's Government are to
bring in, but that this question should be
left for discussion until the time when it
is fairly brought before the House. I
think that this question cannot be brought
forward in a satisfactory manner upon such
an occasion as the discussion of the Address
to the Grown ; but that when it is brought
forward it should be laid before the House
in such a manner as will fully and clearly
set forth the reasons for the course which it
is intended to pursue,' and will give the
House, which is principally, though not
exclusively, interested in its settlement, a
full oppoitunity of passing their judgment
upon die measure recommended by Her
Majesty's Ministers. Passing fh)m this
subject, there are only one or two further
topics contained in the speech of the noble
Earl to which I can advert In the first
place, he expressed a hope that in any
proposition that might be made by the
United States Government for the settle-
ment of those unfortunate differences
which have arisen out of the late Civil
War, the present (Government may do no-
thing which may sacrifice or imperil the
honour of tliis country. He did not com-
plain that Her Majesty's present Govern-
ment had taken a dLSerent course from
that which he had thought fit to pursue ;
but he hoped we should make no conces-
sions calculated to sacrifice the honour of
the country. My Lords, although certain
negotiations have taken place, the corre-
spondence has not yet arrived at the point
at which I should think it consistent with
my duty to lay it before the House \ but I
0 2
39
Addresi to
(LORDS)
Si/r Maf99ty.
40
may venture to Bay that in that corre-
Bpondence ^rhenever it shall he laid before
jour Lordships — and it shall be laid on
the table at as early a period as the public
service will allow — the noble Earl will
find that while Her Majesty's Government
are disposed to come to an amicable solu-
tion of the matter if they are capable,
they will in no degree depart from that
which is due to the honour of the countryi
or forfeit any of those rights which pro-
perly belong to independent nations. The
noble Earl has stated that he belieyes
some proposition has been made to the
Government of the United States. The
fact is this : — Shortly after the accession to
OfHce of the present Government the United
States Government addressed a despatch to
the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign
Office recapitulating the grounds of com-
plaint which they stated they had against
the British Government. In point of fact,
these were the same as those which had
been before pressed upon the noble EarL
In answer to the despatch my noble Relative
thought it necessary to enter, not acrimo-
niously but particularly! into a discussion
of .the various points which the United
States Government presented for adjust
ment and compensation. I may say that
there was one question which pressed upon
my mind, as it had on the mind of the
noble Earl opposite, and npon which we
found it impossible to come to any com-
promise, and that was the question of the
right of this country to decide at what
time, and under what circumstances, it
should recognise belligerent rights. wWith
regard to this point, I think the answer
which the noble Earl formerly gavo was
entirely conclusive — namely, that in the
first place the question of the discre-
tion, to recognise belligerent rights was
inherent in an independent country ; and
in the next place, that in this particular
instance the recognition of belligerent
rights did not precede but followed the
declaration of blockade on the part of
the United States Government. Block-
ade is essentially an exercise of belligerent
rights ; and after the blockade had been
declared by one of the belligerents, there
were but two courses for the Government
o( this country to pursue-— namely, to re-
fuse to recognise the validity of the block-
ade on the ground that there were no
belligerents, or to recognise the belligerent
rights of both parties. Between these two
alternatives the late Goremment selected
that which the noble Earl truly said was
The Ilarl of Ihrhy ^ .
I
most friendly to the United States'—
namely, they recognised the very imper-
fect blockade. At the same time, they found
themselves under the necessity of recog^
nising correlative obligations. I cannot
but think that this is a point which the
United States Government will not, upon,
reflection, think it necessary or expedient
to press, and for this reason: — We saw
lately, I think it was upon the introduction,
of the new French Minister from Washing-
ton, that a declaration was officially made
to the efiect that after the evacuation of
Mexico by the French troops ^ there would
no longer remain between the two coun«
tries a single question which could lead to
a ground of difference, or be made the sub-
ject of complaint ; and thus nothing would
remain to interfere with the cordial relations
which the United States always desire to
keep up with France. Now, with regard to
the recognition of belligerent rights, Hor
Majesty's late Government and the GoTem-
ment of the Emperor of the French pro-
ceeded in concert, acting simultaneously, and
pursuing a precisely identical course ; and
even if I attributed to the United States
Government a feeling of unfriendliness to-
wards this country — which I am very far
from doing — they could not denounce as a
reasonable ground for complaint, compen-
sation, and remonstrance against this coon-
try that which they have officially declared
to be no obstacle between friendly nations
on the part of the Government of France,
whose action was simultaneous and identi-
cal with that of this country. But we
hare said this — if the Government of the
United States will state the principle upon
which the arbitration is to proceed; if
the^ will point out the precise question
winch they wish to have referred to arbi-
tration, and the grounds on which they
ask for redress and compensation, we, on
our parts, shall be quite ready to meet
them in a friendly spirit for the purpose
of discussing the particular questions on
which the arbitration is sought; and if
we can find an impartial arbitrator, we
shall be prepared to submit those ques-
tions to his judgment. These are, in sub-
stance, the proposals we have made to the
United States Goyemment. It remains
to be seen whether negotiations founded
on those principles can bo brought to a
satisfactory conclusion. I hope and trust
that they may; because I am convinced
that there are no cruntries whose interests
are more deeply involved in the mainte-
nance of friendly relations with one another
41 S€w WriU JDurmg (Fi^BirABr 5, 1867}
ttai tliM ooimtry and the great Bepablic
OB the other side of the Atlantic. I be-
licTe (hit nothing could bo more anicidal
thtn a war betireen England and the
Uniied States; and that no other conn tries
ia the world could either inflict upon each
other 80 laigc an amount of injarj, or be
prodvetire to each other of so many bene-
fits. There is, I think, only one other
point in Her Majesty's Speech to w^ich
the noble Earl adverted, and that is the
nHasoro which wo propose to introduce
lar the settlement of the relation between
landlord and tenant in Ireland. I do not
it all wish to detract from the merits
which the noble £arl ascribed — ^and very
pn^crly ascribed — to the Administration
of the late Lord Lieutenant of that coun-
try; and I agree with the noble Earl that
one of the Inah questions most necessary
to be solvedy and at the same time perhaps
most difficidt of Bolution, is that ques-
tion of the relation between landlord and
taant. I will not, however, anticipate
the discussion of that particular measure
which we propose to bring forward. The
ffin upon the subject is prepared, and is
ready to be laid upon the table of the
other Honse ; and I will only say that in
pieparing that Bill Her Majesty's Oovem-
ment were anxiously desirous of giving,
on the one hand, every facility to tenants
for improving their holdings and for bene-
tting Utemselves by those improvements,
and, on the other hand, of maintaining those
JQst rights of property on the part of land-
lords which cannot be interfered with with-
out destroying the whole social condition
of this country. As the noble Earl did
not think it necessary to comment on any
other portion of Her Majesty's Speech, and
as, after waiting for a little time, I did
not find that any other noble Lord was
desirous of addressing your Lordships, I
will not touch any further upon the va-
rious topics to which the Speech refers ;
Imt I will content myself with expressing
my thankfulness to your Lordships for the
Biaaner in which you have received the
Speedi and the Address, and I hope that
the temperate spirit which has been dis-
played upon this occasion, furnishes a just
iadication of the courtesy and the candour
trith which the measures that may be sub-
mitted to your Lordships will be received
during the renoainder of the Session.
iheSeeui.
42
Cn AIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
The Lord Ebdesdale appointed, Nemine
Disuntienie, to toke the Chair in all Com*
mittces of this House for this Session.
CouuiTTEE FOB Pbivileoes — Appointed.
SUB-COMHITTEB FOB TUB JoUBNALS*-
Appointed.
Appeal Cokmittsb — Appointed.
Home adjonrned at half {Kiit Sorcn o'clock,
to TbnndAjr next, a quarter
before Fi?e o'clock.
»»»»>/S^^^>/\^^lA<»
HOUSE OP COMMONS,
Tueiday, February 6, 1867.
The House met at half after One of the *
Clook.
A Message from Her Majesty, by Sir
Augustus Clifford, Gentleman Usher of the
Black Eod—
"Mb. SPEAXEn,
"The Queen commands this Honour-
able House to attend Her Majesty imme-
diately, in the House of Peers."
Address agreed to, Nemine Disseniiente,
a&d Ordered to be presented to Her Majesty
by the Lords with White Staves.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, with the
House, went up to attend Her Majesty ; —
And being returned ;
NEW WRITS DURING TUE RECESS.
Mr. Sfeakeb acquainted the House that,
during the Recess, ho had issued Warrants
for New JFrits,far Brecknock Borough, v.
Earl of Brecknock, now Marquess Camden ;
for Penryn, v. Hon. Thomas George Baring,
now Lord Northbrook; for Gloucester
County (Western Division), r. John Holt,
esquire, Attorney General ; for Pembroko
County, V, George Lort Phillips, esquire,
deceased; for Guildford, v. Sir William
Bovill, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas ;
for Tipperary, v. John Blake Dillon, es-
quire, deceased ; far Belfast, v. Sir Hugh
M'Colmont Cairns, one of tho Judges of
the Court of Appeal in Chancery; for
Wexford County, t?. John George, esquire,
one of the Judges of the Court of Queen's
Bench in Ireland; for Waterford County,
r. Earl of Tyrone, now Marquess of Water-
ford ; for Armagh Borough, Stearno Ball
Miller, esquiro, one of the Judges of Ilor
Majesty's Court of Bankruptcy and lusol-
yency in Ireland.
48
Adireuio
NEW MEMBERS SWORN.
(COUHONE}
H$r Mn^Miy tm
44
Kichard Garthi esquiroi for Guildford ;
Howel G wyn, esquire, for Brecknock Bo-
rough ; John Vance, esquire, for Armagh
Borough ; Jerroise Smith, esquire, for
Penryn; Charles Lanyon, esquire, for
Belfast ; James Beyan Bewen, esquire./or
Pembroke County; Hon. George Douglas
Pennant, for Carnarvon County; Hon.
Adelbert Wellington Cu8t,/or Salop (North-
ern Division); Hon. Captain Charles White,
/or Tipperary ; Sir John Bolt, /or Glouces-
ter County (Western Division).
PRIVILEOES.
Ordered^ That a Committee of Privileges
be appointed.
OUTLAWRIES BILL.
Bill '' for the more effectual preventing
Clandestine Outlawries," read the first
time ; to be read a second time.
NEW WRITS ISSUED.
For Northampton County (Northern
Division), v. Lord Burghley, now Marquess
of Exeter; for Suffolk (Eastern Division), v.
Sir Edward Clarence Kerrison, baronet,
Chiltern Hundreds.
THE QUEEN'S SPEECH FROM THE
THRONE.
Mb. speaker reported, That this
House has, this day, attended Her Ma-
jesty' in the House of Peers, when Her
Majesty was pleased to make, by Her
Chancellor, a most gracious Speech from
the Throne to both Houses of Parliament ;
of which, Mr. Speaker said, he had, for
greater accuracy, obtained a Copy :—
And Mr. Spsaxeb read it to the House.
ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY ON HER
MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
Mb. De GBET rose to move that an
humble Address be presented to Her Ma-
jesty in answer to Her most gracious
Speech. He said, he could not but feel
that if, under ordinary circumstances,
no Member unused to take part in the
debates of this House could venture to
rise without asking the indulgence of the
HoosOf still more must he, one of the
youngest of its Members, claim that (son*
sideration which was always so generoualy
bestowed on those who undertook the duty.
But there were special circumstances whioh
required that he should use peculiar caa«
tion in addressing them. In the last Ses*
sion a great struggle took place, which
terminated in a change of Ministry. It
could hardly be said that the House had
settled down into that regular division of
garties which it usually presented ; and i£
e should be so unfortunate as to say any-
thing which might be distasteful to any
section of the House, or to any Member of
it, in commenting upon the various ques-
tions which arose out of Her Most Qmciooa
Majesty's Speech, he trusted it would bo*
attributed solely to his want of practice
and experience. Though this House mi^^ht
be more than usually divided in its opi-
nions, he thought he should not be wrong
if he ventured to express his belief that
there was in it such an amount of faimeas
and independence that we might expect
that good measures would receive a large
amount of support from whichever side
they might emanate, and that Uer Ma-
jes^'s Government would *be met with
that fair dealing which the circumstances
under which they had taken Office (and
he trusted with confidence the measures
they would propose) would be acknow-
ledged to have entitled them to. He would
not pursue this train of thought further.
There was much in the Speech of Her
Majesty, whose most gracious presence at
the opening of the Session had been a
source of heartfelt gratification to them,
in common with all Her loyal subjects-
there was much in that Speech which was
the subject of congratulation, and nothing
more so than the fact that she was able to
inform them that friendly relations subsist
with all foreign Powers, from which assur*
ance we might fairly infer that we should
continue to enjoy tiie blessings of peace.
The policy of Great Britain was assuredly
a policy of peace. If theve was one thing
that distinguished this country from many
others it was that she had long ceased to
have any ambitious desire for territorial
aggrandizement. Her fiourishing trade at
home and abroad, the enormous develop-
ment of her manufacturing industry, and
her sense of the obligations of justicci
humanity, and religion, all led to a strong
desire on the part of every class for the
maintenance of peace. With this object
they were commonly told that they must
AS
MfrMosi
[VsBBXiAvz 5, 1867)
QramuB Speech. 46
avoid interference with the afiTairs of other
coantries ; but, however much they might
desire to act upon this policy, they could
not altogether separate themselves from the
great community of nations which every-
where surrounded them and their posses-
sions. .The tendency of railways and other
modem improvements was to bring them
more into contact with foreign Governments
and peoples; and it was hardly to be
hopedy except under a reign of universal
peace (whicb, at present at least, appeared
to be far distant) that they could preserve
intimate relations with other Powers,
without questions arising which might
cause disputes and even force hostilities
upon them. With a view to such contin-
gencies this country must reserve to her-
self the right and power of defending her
own dignity and honour whensoever and
by whomsoever they may be attacked. To
do this effectually she must necessarily
keep up the efficiency of her fleets and
armies, and strengthen them by all those
modem appliances which had recently
proved so formidable and effective, and
had wholly altered the nature and opera-
tions of modem warfare. And they must not
neglect to use every effort for ameliorating
the condition and securing the increased
comforts of their soldiery. The improved
condition of all classes led to an earnest
desire that the army should participate in
these advantages. The necessity also of
providing an efficient army of reserve must
not be overlooked. They were, therefore,
fully prepared for the paragroph in Her
Majesty's Speech which called upon them
to sanction some necessary expenditure
for this purpose ; and he felt confident that
the House would not be backward in pro-
viding the means for meeting Her Majes-
ty's wishes, at the same time that they
heartily thanked Her Majesty for the
gracious announcement that the Estimates
had been prepared with every regard for
combining efficiency and economy. The
^ear 1866 had witnessed a great change
in the map of Europe; with the events
by which that change had been effected
hon. Members must necessarily be familiar,
for the circumstances which attended it
were followed by every one in this coun-
try with the deepest interest. Strongly
as he might feel as to the conduct of those
who were engaged in that short but san-
guinary and decisive straggle, he should
be unwilling to provoke a discussion or to
rake up those differences of opinion which
no doubt existed upon this question. But,
fully admitting the expediency of avoid-
ing, as far as possible, intervention in the
affairs of other nations, he could not but
feel a misgiving as to whether this coun-
try might not have acted with more firm-
ness at a much earlier period, and used
her influence successfully for the preven-
tion of injustice and wrong. But, what-
ever their private and personal feelings
might be, they could not but concur with
Her Majesty in the hope that the estab-
lishment of a strong ruling Power in Ger-
many would prevent any renewal of hosti-
lities, and lead to a long and lasting peace
in Europe. Her Mojesty had been gra-
ciously pleased to announce that she had
suggested to the Government of the United
States a mode by which questions arising
out of t^e late Civil War in America may
receive an amicable solution. This subject
had long occupied the attention of, and
entailed a lengthened correspondence be-
tween, England and the United States of
America. It was a question which, per-
haps, admitted of some doubt whether the
occurrences which led to this correspon-
dence amounted to a breach of the Keu-
trality Laws ; but much ill-feeling had
been created, and it was not unnatural
that the American people should feel
strongly upon the subject. It was there-
fore to be hoped that the suggestion of
Her Majesty's Government would bo gene-
rously accepted by the American Govern-
ment in the same spirit in which it had
been made, and eventually lead to such an
arrangement as would bring about a tho-
rough mutual good understanding, and, if
necessary, such an alteration of the Neu-
trality Laws as would clear up all doubts
and prevent any such differences arising
for the future. Upon the next paragraph
in Her Majesty's Speech, relating to Iho
war between Spain and the South Ameri-
can Republics, it was not his intention to
comment at any length. The wanton de-
struction of property of a private nature
in the bombardment of maritime towns,
even in warfare, was an act contrary to
all the principles of modem civilization,
and it was not unsatisfactory to know that
in this instance this was not done with
impunity. Though the offers of mediation
made by Her Majesty^s Government in the
hope of restoring peace to these distant
countries had not been accepted, it
was much to be hoped, in the interests of
humanity, that all questions which had
unhappily arisen between these descen-
dants of a common origin might speedily
i1
Addrssato
(COmtOKS)
li&r Majesty <m
4d
'be settled under the aaspices of a friendly
Power. It was gratifying to learn that
the efforts of Her Majesty and her allies
had been directed to bringing about such
improved relations between the Forte and
its Christian subjects as were not incon-
sistent with the sovereign rights of the
Sultan. As a Christian nation they could
not but feel sympathy with all Christians
who lived under Turkish rule ; but it was
satisfactory to find that Her Majesty had
not found it necessary to exercise any ac-
tive interference in those internal disturb-
ances which had prevailed in some pro-
vinces of the Turkish Empire, and broken
out in actual insurrection in Crete ; and
it was to be hoped that Her Majesty would
now be able to promote with effect those
benevolent objects that her effprts had
been directed, in conjunction with her
allies the Emperor of the French and the
Emperor of Russia, to insure. Her Ma-
jesty also announced that she had acknow-
ledged Frince Charles of Hohenzollem,
who had been chosen by the inhabitants
of the Danubian Frincipalities as their
ruler ; and it was to be hc^ed that his
accession would lead to a firm union of
those provinces, and be followed by that
prosperity which was the natural conse-
quence and, at the same time, the surest
test of good government. Her Majesty
further informed them that she had com-
manded a Bill to be submitted to Farlia*
ment for the Confederation of the British
North American Frovinces. At no period
during the history of this country had the
relations between the respective provinces
and the Home Government been in a more
satisfactory condition than they were at
present. At no time had there been a
more cordial feeling existing between them
and the mother country. They had seen
how willingly the Canadians had under-
taken the organization of Volunteer forces
and the training of militia, and freely dis-
bursed the funds necessary for the defence
of our mutual interests. England could
not but reciprocate this feeling ; and the
noble manner in which the inhabitants of
these provinces had come forward to de-
fend themselves, and their connection with
this country, mast make every Englishman
feel a desire that we should do our part
to confirm and ratify a scheme of Confe-
deration which had received the sanction
of the authorities and the great majority
of the people of these countries. It was
understood that at present certain pro-
vinces had not joined in the plan of Con-
Mr. J)$ Qrey
federation ; but if, as it seemed the Go-
vernment had reason to believe, the pro-
posed Confederation, so far as it was
intended to be carried out, was the real
desire of the people, and was likely, to
strengthen them against possible enemies,
it must be wise that we should give a
willing assent to their wishes, and rejoice
to see a United Canadia arise in the place
of the now separate, but not unfriendly,
provinces. One of those dreadful famines
which seemed to occur periodically in.
India had, during the past year, attacked
part of the Bengal and Madras Fresiden-
cies. Great difficulty appeared to have
been experienced in conveying the neces-
sary relief to the suffering districts, and
had not an abundant harvest, under the
blessing of Frovidenoe, helped to allay the
sufferings which at one time carried off
thousands every week, it was impossible
to calculate what might have been the
extent of those lamentable consequences
which neither the liberal flow of private
charity, which was always so readily forth-
coming, nor the action of a sympathizing
Government which the emergency called
forth could ever have been sufficient to
avert. There is no doubt an ample open-
ing in India for those great public works
and improvements which were calculated
to develop the resources of an Empire ;
and when communication was better es-
tablished by means of railways or canals
the food produced intone part of the coun-
try, which might not, perhaps, be affected
by the destructive causes operating upon
another, would more easily be conveyed
to the point where the necessity for
it occurred, and relief would thus be
more immediately afforded. Kor did it
seem that the primary cause was en-
tirely beyond the control of human fore-
sight. In a country like India, whose
rivers and streams were numerous, where
in seasons of unusual drought in many
vast districts the produce of cultivation
was entirely destroyed, or cultivation
itself rendered impossible, much might
surely be done by means of irrigation, and
a judicious expenditure begun in time
might secure the inhabitants of those dis-
tricts in a great measure from the recur-
rence of similar calamities. Farliament
must heartily rdoico with Her Majesty
that it was no longer necessary for the
safety of her subjects in Ireland to continue
the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.
They must be thankful to feel that the
attempt at insurrection there had been
49
Her Mod
{Fkbbuaet5| 1867)
OraciouB Speech. 60*
saocessfaU J quelled and kept under control
bj the £rmnees with which it was met,
tempered as that firmness was by the liberal
mercy of the Goyemment^ and that without
a angle outbreak, or the shedding, ho was
glad to saj. of one drop of Irish blood,
showing that when a Government were
determined upon a decisiye course of action
which they felt to be the best and surest
means of putting a stop to threats of re-
bellion, offenders against the law would
rarely yenture to come to a direct issue
with them, and that there was little real
danger to the security of life and property
which it was the first duty of every Go-
vernment to maintain. But, while we
congratulated ourselves on the result of the
firmness and decision of those whose pri-
mary duty it was to determine the course
of action to be pursued, we must not forget
to give due credit to those on whom was
thrown the x arduous and delicate duty of
ctrrjring out the policy of the Government.
In these days, when the liberty of com-
menting on the conduct of public servants
wss so freely indulged in, their responsi-
bility was enormously increased, and it
was satisfactory to feel that in this case the
condact of those who were engaged had
met with approval from all parties. One
of the most gratifying circumstances at-
tending the past crisis was the fact, so
graciously announced by Her Majesty, of
the hostility manifested by all classes and
creeds to the authors of these disturbances.
Indeed, the stand taken against Fenianism
by the large body of influential Eoman
Catholics, headed by their clergy, must
have proved of the greatest assistance and
support to Her Hajesty's Government.
Under these circumstances, it was not un-
natural that the Government should have
been anxious to consider whether anything
could be done to mitigate the feeling of
discontent which too frequently, and most
unhappily for its prosperity, prevailed in
that portion of Her Majesty's dominions.
Among the questions which appeared to
canse that discontent, one in particular
arose out of the relations of landlord and
tenant, and when we were told that a
measure was in contemplation for securing
to tenants compensation for farm improve-
ments, we might, perhaps, look upon the
announcement as a graceful tribute to the
loyalty and good feeling which had actu-
ated so large a portion of the population
of Ireland. To us in England it appeared
almost difficult to imagine that there should
be a necessify for any special legislation on
/ this point. Our tenancies were subject to
I certain conditions, to which both parties
agreed in the first instance ; in the absence
of previous agreement the custom of the
country intervened to regulate those con-
ditions ; and all that the law had to do was
to secure that the conditions agreed upon,
or established by the custom of the country,
should be carried out. But the circum-
stances of Ireland were exceptional ; and
he was far from saying that improvements
in that respect might not be introduced
with advantage provided they were framed
with a due regard to the rights of property
which never could be ignored in Ireland
or in any other country. He believed it
might be stated, without fear of contradic-
tion, that Ireland was improving rapidly
in prosperity and wealth. It was said
that her cattle had increased 50 per cent
and her sheep 100 per cent in twenty
years, while the entire number of acres
under crops had also increased. Her
great desideratum was that internal tran-
quillity and respect for law which would
alone allay the distrust felt by owners
of capital for investments in Ireland—
distrust which banished from her soil
much of the enterprize and industry that
would enable her to run the race of
competition with other nations. The de-
partment of agriculture for which she was
peculiarly suited was the feeding and rear-
ing of live stock ; and in manufactures,
which in some districts had been carried
on with no little success, her redundant
population gave her immense advantages.
Whether the suggestion made by a noble
Lord, a Member of the other House of
Parliament, in one of the very able letters
which he had published for the registra-
tion of farm improvements could be carried
out he (Mr. De Grey) would not venture
to express an opinion, but it would no
doubt receive tho careful attention of the
Government. A few weeks ago it was
hoped that at the meeting of Parliament
Her Majesty would have been able to an-
nounce that the cattle plague had ceased
in the kingdom, but it still appeared to
linger in certain districts, and there had
been a recent and serious outbreak in the
metropolis. While any cases occurred we
could not consider ourselves safe from an
extensive recurrence of this formidablo
disease ; and its continued existence in an
alarming degree on the Continent, and
particularly in Holland, rendered it neces-
sary that we should not relax those pre-
cautions which had been so successful in.
61
Addrmio
(COltMONS)
B&r Mdf$9tff oil
59
checkingi if not in entinly suppressing,
its ravages. Snggestions had been made
to the GoTemment by the Boyal and other
great agricoltoral societies which, in com-
bination with the experience obtained
during the last year, would, he felt snre,
lead to their proposing to Parliament such
measures as might be necessary for con-
tinuing and improying, according to cir-
cumstfmces, regulations that had conferred
such great and acknowledged benefits on
the country. Her Majesty also acknow-
ledged with deep thankfulness the abate-
ment of the visitation of cholera, which at
one time threatened alarming consequences
in this country ; but the superior know-
ledge of the causes of this pestilence ob-
tained by science, and the attention to
precautions suggested by that superior
knowledge, had checked, and it was to be
hoped would continue to preserve us, under
the blessing of Providence, from the ra-
vages of this disease. The evils prevailing
in the mercantile naval service had spe-
cially attracted public criticism, and had
been found to require immediate attention.
When men were employed upon services
to which any unusual amount of risk at-
tached— and a seaman's life must always be
a life of danger^every care should be taken
that the ordinary comforts of life should
be secured to them as far as was practi-
cable, especially when the absence of these
comforts conduced to sickness and disease.
Such a service could not fail to be unpopu-
lar if the common requirements necessary
for the preservation of health were not
attended to, and our merchant seamen,
who constituted one of the hardiest of our
working classes, and to whom we look for
the best supply of sailors for the Royal
Navy, should at least have no cause to envy
the condition of those who entered the
same profession in the service of other
countries. It was satisfactory to learn
that the Government were prepared with
a measure to improve the laws regulating
the care of the sick and other poor in the
metropolis, and for the re-distribution of
some of the charges of relief therein. The
question was one which undoubtedly re-
quired immediate attention. Our hos-
pitals and institutions for the care of the
sick poor were a glory and an honour to
the country, but private charity could only
reach a small portion of the misery which
must exist among a population estimated
at 3,000,000. It was generally admitted
that our workhouse system was inadequate
to the requirementa of suoli a population.
and the public mind had been disturbed by
recent revelations of what had been going
on in at least a portion of our metropoli-
tan workhouses and their infirmaries. He
could not think that Parliament did its
duty if it left to private charity that
which was, in fact, one of the first duties
of the State ; but there would be no need
to interfere with those noble institutions
which were an admirable supplement, bat
which could never supersede the neoessity
of a State provision for the care of the
poor in sickness. He now came to that
paragraph in Iler Majesty's Speech which
referred to the vexed question of Reform.
During the debates which took place ia
the last Session, it seemed to have been
the general opinion of the House that
the representation could not be left in the
state in which it now was. The princi-
pal question was whether it was possible,
with safety to the State, to admit a large
proportion of the working classes into the
constituency. If this could be done with-
out danger to the Constitution, the feeling
of most men's minds would incline to their
admission. But our whole system was
now one of compensation, in which all
great interests were represented in certain
proportions. These considerations most
not be neglected in dealing with the ques-
tion of the admission of a large body of
working men to the franchise, and Par-
liament must feel satisfaction in hearing
that Her Majesty's Government contem-
plated measures which would not unduly
disturb the balance of political power. If
the country generally desired Reform, it
did not desire revolution. If Parliament
was prepared to give to the working classes
increased power, it was not prepared step
by step to introduce a democracy. But in
dealing with this difficult question one thing
was certain, that unless all parties were
ready to unite to support measures founded
upon a careful consideration of all the
points involved in the various discussions
which had taken place, and the volumes
which had been written on the subject,
practically speaking, no measure of Reform
was ever likely to be carried in this
House. Parliament was informed that its
attention would be called to this subject ;
but he would venture to express an opinion
that if the Government should have reason
to believe that the subject would be ap-
proached rather in a party spirit than
with a due regard to all the various in-
terests which required to be represented
in this great oountryi they would soaroely
53
Eeriioii
{Febbttabt 6| 1867}
Oracums Speech, 54
be prudent in undertaking the task of re-
vising the Constitation in the face of a
hostile an& powerful Opposition. The
next question to which Her Majesty drew
attention was that of trades unions. The
law with respeet to trades unions, dating
from the year 1825, was that no combina*
tion of workmen for raising wages should
be unlawful so long as no violence, threats,
or intimidation be used. This law ap-
peared to be founded on true principles of
justice, but it was evaded in practice, and
a system was in opeiation by which work-
men were forced to join unions and com-
binations against their will, and in direct
contravention of the law, and outrages had
occurred with the object of intimidating
both masters and men. On the other
hand, there were complaints on the part
of the men of combinations among tho
masters. Of course, the masters could, on
no principle of justice, be deprived of a
right which they possess only in common
with those who might combine against
them. The evils that had been en-
gendered by these disputes were not only
injurious to both, and interfered most ma-
terially with the general industry of the
countiy, but threatened to transfer that
manufacturing prosperity which this coun-
try had so long and pre-eminently enjoyed
to our great rivals on the Continent. Under
these circumstances, he felt confident that
all classes throughout the country would
hear with feelings of satisfaction and grati-
tude that an inquiry was to be instituted
into the organization of trades unions and
other similar associations, whether of work-
men or employers, with a view of saggesting
a practical remedy for that which was, or
so large a programme inclined him to
think that such, at least, was their ex-
pectation ; at all events, it was a proof
that they had not been idle during the
recess. It will be for Parliament to take
these measures into consideration, and give
jeflfect to such of them as it might approve.
He had now only to thank the House for
the kind patience with which they had
heard him. The hon. Gentleman con-
cluded by moving —
" That an humble Address be presented to Her
Majesty, to convey the thanks of this House for
Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech from the
Throne :
" Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we re-
joice to learn that Her Majesty's relations with
Foreign Powers are on a friendly and satisfaotory
footing, and that we join with Her Migesty in
the hope that the termination of the War in which
Prussia, Austria, and Italy have been engaged
may tend to the establishment of durable Peaoe
in Europe :
'* To assure Her Majesty that we learn with
satisfaction that Uer Majesty has suggested to
the Government of the United States a mode by
which the questions pending between the two
Countries, arising out of the late Civil War, may
receive an amicable solution, and which, if met,
as Her Majesty trusts it will be, in a correspond-
ing spirit, will remove all grounds of possible
misunderstanding, and promote relations of oor*
dial friendship :
*' Humbly to express to Her Majesty our
participation in Hor regret that the War be-
tween Spain and the Republics of Chili and
might speedily become, a national calamity. /«™»"V<"^,'i'»«®»' ^^ *^^ ^^® good offices of
There were other measures of internal
improvement promised by Her Majesty's
Government, but to these he would not
more particularly refer, as he felt that he
had already too long trespassed upon the
attention of the House. He feai^ that
many of the subjects to which he had al-
luded he had touched upon somewhat su-
perficially ; but the multipHcity of subjects
and his own inexperience might, perhaps,
be oonsidered a sufficient excuse. It was
to be hoped that the Session would not be
oooupied, like the last, by fruitless and
unprofitable discussions, but that the mea-
sures of improvement proposed by the Go-
vernment would be allowed to be submit-
ted to the careful and candid consideration
of the House, and the fact that Her Ma-
jestf 'b Government had brought forward
Her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with
that of the Emperor of the French, should have
fiiiled to effect a reconciliation ; and to assure
Her Majesty that it wiU be a oaose of satisfiu)tion
to us if, either by agreement between the parties
themselves, or by the mediation of any other
Friendly Power, Peaoe should be restored :
" To thank Her Majesty for Infonniog us that
discontent, prevailing in some Provinces of the
Turkish Empire, has broken out in actual insur-
rection in Crete ; and that, in common with Hor
Majesty's AUies, the Emperor of the French and
the Emperor of Russia, Her Majesty has ab-
stained from any active interference in those in*
temal disturbances ; but that the efforts of Her
Migesty and Her Allies have been direeted to
bringing about such improved relations between
the Porto aad its Ohristtan SabjooU as are not
I COUPONS)
55 AUrm to
ineonsisUnt with the Sovereign RighU of tho
Sultan:
" To thank Her Majeatj for informing ns that
the protracted negotiations, which arose oat of
the acceptance hy Prince Charles of Hohenzollem
of the Goremment of the Danuhtan Principali-
ties, hare heen happily terminated hy an arrange-
ment to which the Porto has given its ready
adhesion, and which has been sanotioncdhy the
concurrenoe of all tho Powers, signatarles of tho
Treaty of 1860 :
« numbly to convey our thanks to Iler Ma-
jesty for informing us that Resolutions in favour
of a more intimate Union of the Provinces of
Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick hare
been passed by their several Legislatures, and
that Delegates, duly authorised, and representing
all olasses of Colonial party and opinion, have
conourred in the conditions upon which such an
Union may be best effected ; and to assure Her
Majesty that wo will give our most careful atten-
tion to the Bill which, in aocordanoe with the
wishes of those Colonies, Her Majesty has di-
rected to be submitted to us, and which, by the
consolidation of Colonial interests and resources,
will, we trust, give strength to tho several Pro-
vinces as members of tho same Empiro, and ani-
mated by feelings of loyalty to the same Sove-
reign :
« To aasure Her Majesty that we have heard
with deep sorrow that the calamity of Famine
has pressed heavily on Her Majesty's Subjects
in some parts of India : and to thank Her Ma-
jesty for informing us that instructions were
issued to Her Majesty's Government in that
Country to make the utmost exertions to mitigate
the distress which prevailed during the autumn of
last year, and that the blessing of an abundant
harvest has since that time materially improved
tho condition of the suffering districts :
'* Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we have
observed with deep concern that tho persevering
efforts and unscrupulous assertions of treasonable
Conspirators abroad have during the last autumn
excited the hopes of some disaffected persona in
Ireland, and the apprehensions of tho loyal popu-
lation ; but that we learn with the greatest satis-
faction that the firm, yet temperate, exercise of
the powers entrusted to tho Executive, and the
hostility manifested against the Conspiracy by
men of all classes and creeds, have greatly tended
to restore publio confidence, and rendered hope-
less any attempt to disturb the general tranquillity;
and that, with Her Majesty, we trust that we may
consequently be enabled to dispense with the oon-
Her Mqfeatff on
SB
tinnanoe of any exceptional Legislation for tbafe
part of Her Majesty's Dominions :
'' To assure Her Majesty that, w ith Her, wo
join in acknowledging, with deep gratitude to
Almighty God, the great decrease which has
taken place in the Cholera, and in the Pestilence
which has attacked our Cattle; and that wo
regret that the continued prevalence of the latter
in some Foreign Countries, and its occasional
re-appearanoe in this, will still render necessary
some special measures of precaution ; but that wo
trust that the visitation of the former will lead
to inoreased attention to those sanitary measures
which experience has shown to be its best pre-
ventive :
"To thank Her Majesty for informing us that,
estimating as of the highest importance an ade«
quate supply of pure and wholesome Water, Her
Majesty has directed the issue of a Commission
to inquire into the best means of permanentljr
securing speh a supply for the Metropolis, and for
the principal towns in densely peopled districts of
the Kingdom :
« Humbly to thank Her Majesty for having
directed that the Estimates of the ensuing year
shall be laid before us, and for having caused
them to be prepared with a due regard to eco-
nomy, and to the maintenance of efflcienoy in the
Public Service ; and to assure Her Majesty that
we will cheerfully consider any proposal for a
moderate Expenditure, calculated to improve the
condition of Her Majesty's Soldiers, and to lay
the foundation of an efilcient Army of Reserve :
'* To thank Her Majesty for informing us that
our attention will again be called to the state of
tho Representation of the People in Parliament ;
and, with Der Majesty, humbly to express our
hope that our deliberations, conducted in a spirit
of moderation and mutual forbearance, may lead
to the adoption of measures which, without un-
duly disturbing the balanee of Political Power,
shall freely extend the Elective Franchise :
"Humbly to express our thanks to Her Ma-
jesty for informing us that the frequent occur-
rence of disagreements between Employers of
Labour and their Workmen, causing much private
suffering and public loss, and occasionally leading,
as is alleged, to aets of outrage and violence, baa
induced Her Majesty to issue a Commission to
inquire into and report upon the organisation of
Trades Unions and other Associations, whether
of Workmen or Employers, with power to suggest
any improvement of the Law for their mutual
benefit; and to assure Her Majesty that any
application whioh shall be made to us for Par-
67
mrMbii
[PMhmAxtli, 1867)
Ormoui Spiich. 68
tianeiiUry Powen^ neoeMAry to nako ihU in-
jury dEective, ibaJl reoaire our Mrnett aiten-
"To conTey to Her Majesty our humble
thanks for inibnniog ixb that Bills will be laid be-
kxt OS for the extension of the beneficial proTi->
sions of the Factory Aets to other trades, spe-
cioDy reported on by the Royal Commission on
tLe Employment of Children ; and for the better
rffoiatioD, aecording to the principle of those
Acts, of workshops where women and children
ire largely employed :
'^To thank Her Majesty for informing us that
the condition of the Mercantile Marino has at-
tracted the sciious attention of Iler Majesty,
and that measures will be submitted to us with a
Tiew to increase the efficiency of that important
Senrice :
*" Humbly to express to Her Majesty the satis-
&etiott with which we have learnt that relaxations
hare been lately introduced into the Navigation
Laws of France ; that Her Majesty has expressed
to the Emperor of the French Uer readiness to
submit to Parliament a proposal for the extino-
UoQ, on equitable termr, of the exemptions from
local charges on Shipping which are still enjoyed
If a limited number of individuals in British
Ports; and that His Imperial Majesty has, in
anticipation of this step, already admitted British
Ships to the advantage of the new Law ; and to
assure Her Majesty that we will give our caro-
fal attention to the Bill upon this subject which
Her Majesty has directed to be forthwith laid
before us :
«• Humbly to aasore Her Majesty that we will
give our moet serious consideration to the Bill
which will be submitted to us for making better
pfovision for the arrangement of the a£birs of
Railway Companies which are unable to meet
their engagements ; as also to any measures for
inproving the management of Sick and other
Poor in the Metropolis, and for a re-distribution
of some of the charges for relief therein :
** To assure Her Majesty that we will give our
most earefal attention to the measures for the
Amendment of the Law of Bankruptcy, and the
Consolidation of the Courts of Probate and Di-
vorce and Admiralty ; also to the means of dis-
posing, with greater despatch and frequency, of
the increasing business in the Superior Courts of
Common Law, and at the Assizes :
** Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing
as that the relations between Landlord and
Tenant in Ireland have engaged the anxious at-
(intiM of Uer Majesty; and that % Bill wiU
be laid belbre na wUeh, without interfering with
the rights of property, will offer direct encourage-
ment to Occupiers of Land to improve their hold-
ings, and provide a simple mode of obtaining
oompeniation for permanent improvements :
« Humbly to assure Her Majesty that, with
Her, we pray that our labours may, under the
blessing of Providence, oonduoo to the pros-
perity of the Country, and the happiness of Uer
People/'
Mb. GRAYES : Hr. Speaker— I have so
inyariably experienced the indulgence of
the House when, on previous occasions,
I have ventured to address it, during
the short time I have had the honour
to be a Member, that I feel I should bo
doubting that experience if I sought on
this occasion to enlist its sympathy by any
formal appeal to its forbearance. In un-
dertaking the onerous task of seconding
the Addbress in reply to Her Majesty's
most gracious Speech from the Throne, no
one can have felt more conscious than I
did myself how little personal considera-
tion influenced the selection. But sharing
in the representation of a constituency
possessing no small commercial distinc-
tion, I hope it may be thought that
I am warranted in accepting the task.
Rarely has a Speech been delivered from
the Throne which has been looked for-
ward to with more intense interest than
that which it had been our good fortune
to listen to to-day, and I have the highest
hopes that it will not only be satisfactory
to the House, but that it will prove ac-
ceptable to the country at large. The
Speech from the Throne embraces mea-
sures of the highest usefulness, aiming
largely at the amelioration of the poorer
classes of society, and involving questions of
the highest moment. It will, I have no
doubt, commend itself to the anxious con-
sideration of the House. The felicitous
expressions in which the hon. Mover has
conveyed his pleasure at Her Majesty's
presence to-day will be shared in by every
Member of this House, and will excite
throughout the country feelings of the
greatest satisfaction.
In the few remarks with which I
intend to trouble the House, I must ne-
cessarily travel over some of the ground
that has been touched upon by the
hon. Member for West Norfolk; but I
shall endeavour to confine myself more
particularly to those points which may
be considered to possess more than or-
60
Aiirmi0
(COUHOKS)
EirMa^itjfcn
60
dinaiy interest at the present moment.
I think I am justified in giving the pre-
eminence among the questions connected
with our foreign polioy to that of the
differences which have arisen between us
and the United States — differences arising
out of intricate questions of International
Law, and which hare been made during
the past year the subject of a yery able
diplomatic correspondence. Claims and
counter-claims have been advanced in the
full consciousness of mutual right; and
it will be a matter of the greatest
satisfaction if a mode can be suggested
by which these claims can be amicably
and fairly settled. I believe that when
they were originally put forward, the mo-
ment was inopportune — that concession
might then have been construed into fear
on the one hand, or to threats on the other.
But noW| happUy, a better feeling exists.
There is a mutual desire to do each other
j ustice. England, above all other nations,
is deeply interested in the maintenance of
stringent Neutrality Laws ; and if it should
appear ours are too lax, or are over-
weighted with legal proof, and that com-
pensation may have to be made, I, for
one, will rejoice if that decision should
lead to the establishment of clearer views
of the duties of neutrals, and also to the
adoption of a more intelligible and more
stringent Code of International Law for the
government of all maritime •Powers.
I am sure that this House will share in
the regret expressed by Her Majesty that
our mediation, in conjunction with that
of her ally the Emperor of the French,
has not been successful in bringing to a
termination the disputes which have arisen
between Spain and the Republics of South
America. Those Republics should remem-
ber how unmistakably the sympathy of
Europe was extended towards them at
the commencement of those differences;
and, remembering this, they should lend a
fEivourable ear to any proposals for a
iriendly mediation which would be likely
to bring these disputes to a settlement.
There can be no doubt the longer this
settlement is delayed the greater will
be the injury to those young and pros-
perous countries; and therefore I hope
that the friendly mediation referred to in
Her Majesty's Speech — and by which I
presume to be understood the good ofiices
of the President of the United States —
will be successful, and that a lasting peace
may arise, alike satisfactory to the inte-
rests and honour of all parties.
Mr. Orav$9
Prom our foreign policy I turn to onr
domestic afiGnirs, and I am sure that I
shall be pardoned if I at once take up the
question which engrosses at this moment
men's minds, and to which our attention
has been specially directed by Her Majesty
to-day — I mean Parliamentary Reform.
Happily for us we have advanced at that
stage when argument becomes no longer ne-
cessary to justify the extension of the fran-
chise. It is an admitted necessity by all
parties in the State, and the only point
that remains to be settled is the means by
which a wise, just, and satisfactory settle-
ment of the question can be arrived at.
What the mode may be which the Go-
vernment intend to propose for carrying
this object into effect — ^whether it includes
a Re-distribution of Seats Bill — whether
it will grapple with the corruption which
has been so ruthlessly brought to light in
the last few months, and which I consider
to be a serious blot upon our electional
system, and a stain on the character of this
House — whether it will deal with these
questions or not, I have no means of
knowing. But I am convinced of this —
that the measure will not be framed in
any narrow spirit ; nor do I believe that
it will be submitted to the House in
any but the most earnest and honest desire
to merit the approval, not only of this
House, but of the country at lai^. The
history of Reform justifies the remark
which my hon. Friend has made to night
— that it should not be made a party
question. So far I do not think that it has
made any very great advance under pai*ty
protection ; and speaking for myself, with-
out any inspiration, I think it should be
taken out of the category of par^ ques-
tions, that the House should take it under
its own protection, and deal with it in the
firm determination to settle it on a basis of
concession and compromise. I may be
wrong in this view, but it is one that I hold
strongly, and I throw it out, for what it is
worth, for the consideration of the House.
Scarcely less important than Parliamentary
Reform is the connection between capital
and labour— the breach seems rather to be
widening than narrowing— and I think Her
Majesty's Government has done wisely in
deciding that an inquiry shall take place by
Commission into this difficult and delicate
question ; for if the result of the inquiry
should be to draw closer the links between
the employer and the employed, it wUl bo
a subject for much congratulation. I do
not know whether it is intended that the
ei
S&r Matt
[FmiKUAXi 5j 1867{
Gfradoua Speech.
63
inquiry shall embrace the question of the
extent to which we are suffering from the
effects of foreign competition in branches
of industry that hare been hitherto con-
sidered as England's specialities; but I
think it very 'desirable that this should be
done, and that all parties in this country
should be shown, on' the most unquestion-
able eTidencOi the causes which are at
work, and what have been the results of
their operation.
It is also, I perceiyOi in contemplation
to issue a Boyal Commission to inquire
into the quantity and quality of the water
supplied to the metropolis and other large
towns in England. The experience of the
last twelve months has taught us how
largely the public health is affected by the
water supply ; and no one can question the
desirableness of haying this yery important
subject investigated in all its bearings by
a Jioyal Commission, instead of by local
and partial inquiries. Living as I do
in the centre of one of the most densely-
populated districts in the country, I
well know the interest with which this
question is watched by the people, and
Uie satisfaction with which the announce-
ment of a Commission will be received
by all who dwell in large towns. A
measure will be submitted to us for
enabling insolvent railway companies to
make arrangements for settling their af-
fairs. I have no doubt* that in that mea-
sure due protection will be given to the
public rights. It appears that there is no
machinery existing at the present moment
for meeting such a state of things ; and it
therefore becomes necessary to take legis-
lative measures for remedying the incon-
venienoe thence arising. We cannot be
surprised, knowing the deep interest taken
by Her Majesty in the Mercantile Marine,
that Her Majesty has been pleased to call
our attention to it. Much has, indeed,
been done at various times for this branch
of our industry. It has been relieved
of many burdens and restrictions — but
some still remain. There are anomalies,
and restrictions, and exceptional burdens
still pressing upon it. I think it has been
wisely decided by the Government to deal
with them ; and I hope that, at the same
time, the various Acts connected with the
Mercantile Marine of the country may
come under revision, and that the 600 sec-
tions may be consolidated and rendered
more intelligible than they now are to
owners, masters, and seamen. The allu-
sion to our seamen is no less important.
There are evils at work that require treat-
ment. Some of them may, perhaps, be
beyond legislative cure; but I am per-
fectly satisfied that much in the way of
remedy may be effected by wise and pru-
dent legislation. It is possible, no doubt,
to have too much legislation ; a^d it be-
comes a grave question whether we have
not had too much for our seamien, for the
result has been to keep the owners of
ships and their seamen further apart from
each other instead of bringing them into
closer union. Nothing can be worse than
the discipline pointed at in the Speech,
involving the shipping interest not only
in serious losses and intolerable vexation,
but inflicting on the country a large an-
nual expenditure for bringing home de-
serters under the guise of distressed sea-
men. It is an increasing charge, for within
the last two years it has increased from
£25,000 to £30,000 for the mere food of
these men — whilst to our shipowners it is
a serious and intolerable vexation, in being
compelled to provide passages for them.
The seamen of the Mercantile Marine
must be placed on a better system — • a
better system of recruiting must be intro-
duced— we must have training ships estab-
lished— the comfort and health of the sea-
man must be more carefully looked after—-
shipowners themselves must become more
conscious of their responsibilities, and the
commanders must take a greater interest
in the welfare and comfort of their men.
Then, and not till then, are wo likely to
see that permanent improvement in the
Mercantile Marine which will enable us
to look upon it as we have always done,
as the boast of this country. The relaxa-
tion of the Navigation Laws — thanks to the
enlightened policy of the Emperor of the
French — is one which may be regarded
with great satisfaction. From the 1st
of January the tonnage duties collected
from ships have ceased to bd collected
in the French ports, except in the instance
of the ships of nations which have refused
to grant in return similar privileges to
French ships. Anticipating the desire
that this country would only be too glad
to assist in shaking off the renudning
fetters from commerce, France has, with-
out asking, placed the shipping of this
country upon the most favourable footing ;
and a measure will be submitted to the
House for ratifying that understanding,
and I have no doubt that the removal of
the few exceptional restrictions will be
based on terms as equitable in their
63
AMrea h
(COMMONS]
S&r MafeHy on
64
nature as the proposal itself is justifi-
able upon public policy. The question
of Law Beform is one of the Tery greatest
interest. There is no doubt whatever that
the judicial force and the machinery of
our Law Courts has not kept pace with the
progress of the country or the wants of
trade. I am glad that the evils arising
from the loss of temper, the loss of time,
and the loss of money, attendant on
the present system are likely to be re-
mored. As to the advantage of tho con-
solidation of tho Divorce Court and the
Admiralty Court, I am not very compe-
tent to speak; but I venture to hope
that when the measure is brought be-
fore the House for dealing with the Ad-
miralty Court, it will not be forgotten
that there is a great necessity for reform-
ing the Court of Admiralty itself, for
making more summary its proceedings,
and for extending its jurisdiction to classes
of maritime commerce not now embraced,
and which at present, owing to the ex-
pense and trouble involved in Admii^lty
proceedings, are either confided to arbi-
tration or are never dealt with at all. I
trust also that the advantages of a re-
constituted Admiralty Court will not be
confined to the metropolis ; but that the
great maritime ports of England, which
furnish so largo a share to the business of
that Court, will have its advantages brought
to their own doors by the establishment of
Vice Admiralty Courts. As to the amend-
ment of our Bankruptcy Laws, I cannot for
a moment doubt the propriety. They are
generally condemned— they are found in-
adequate to the proper protection of the
trader — they are cumbrous — and they are
expensive. I hope that in dealing with
these laws some provision will bo made
to check the commercial immorality which
has shown itself so widely within the last
twelve months in the disgraceful failures
which have taken place. It is true there
are palliating circumstances for many of
these failures in the terrible crisis which
swept over the country last year.
Judging by the tests which are usually
applied by this House as to whether any
year has been a successful one or other-
wise, the past year would rank as an
eminently prosperous one, for our im-
ports and exports have increased to a
very largo extent. Our imports, taken
for nine months of the financial year
last made up, compared with the same
months in the preceding year, show an
excess of £42,000,000, and our exports
Mr. Graves
show an excess of £23,000,000. It is
not improbable that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer may, by-and-bye, be able to
announce to the House that the revenue
has been equally elastic, and, has more than
answered his expectations. But the popu«
lar estimate of last year is very different, and
is much more likely to be true than any con-
clusions based upon the figures I have just
given. A crisis of unparalleled severity,
causing a wide-spread derangement of cre-
dit, involved every branch of our National
industry in most serious losses. These
panics appear to be periodical in their
character and uniform in their visitations ;
and I think it is well worthy of conside-
ration whether some effort may not bo
made to ascertain their causes. Believing^
that excessive credit and abuse of the
principle of limited liability had much to
do with the crisis of last year^ it was with
sincere pleasure that I heard the hon.
Member for Stockport (Mr. Watkin) give
notice of his intention- to bring before the
House the results of the limited liability
system. The shock which it has received
will do much to disarm the power for evil
of that system for the future ; but I think,
while the cause and the effects are fresh
upon our minds, we should be wise in re-
viewing the provisions of the Act, and
preventing such mischiefs from occurring
in future. The manufacturing interest has
happily suffered less than the commercial ;
but the exorbitant rate which money main-
tained for a large portion of the current
year, must have largely paralysed the
manufacturing energy of this country.
These fluctuations in the value of money,
occurring so frequently as they do, are
exceedingly embarrassing to trade ; and I
hope that Parliament, in its wisdom, may
be able to devise some means for, if not pro-
venting, at least regulating these fluctua-
tions. With the third great branch of our
industrial economy — agriculture — I am not
so conversant; but I cannot help express-
ing my earnest sympathy with that in-
terest, for the twofold calamity which has
fallen upon it — tho cattle plague and the
indifferent harvest. These may be re-
garded as natural visitations ; but they go
to swell the disasters of the past year, and
to make the amelidment of the Bankruptcy
Law the more necessary. With regard to
Ireland, I will now refer specially to
the measures for the amelioration of
that country which are alluded to in
the Speech from tho Throne. I hope
that these are but the harbingers of
65
Sift Most
(Febbvabt 5| 1867)
Oraeioui Speech. 66
a new polic]^— a policy founded npon a
just appreciation of the distinotions of race.
I yentore to think that the statesmen who
seek to make that country contented and
happy must do so rather by the applica*
lion of legislation suited to the character
and condition of the country than by the
application of any uniform system of law.
Holding these opinions, I rejoice that a
measure will be introduced for the settle-
ment of the long-vexed question of land
tenure in Ireland. Public policy demands
that that fertile land should be made as
fruitiul as possible, and that the occupiers
of the soil should be encouraged and should
haye secured to them the fruits of the
capital and the skill which they invest in
the improvement of the land. I know
that on this subject there exists the most
varied opinions; but I have known Ire-
land long, and I have a right to express
my opinion on the subject, for I con-
sider under the existing laws, that en-
couragement and that security do not
exist. Mercifully freed as that country
has been from the ravages of the cattie
plague and the commercial disasters so
heavily felt in this country, Ireland
has been making in material wealth at
least a steady progress. She has added
£2.500,000 to the value of her live
stock within the last official year, and
the deposits in her savings banks, which
in the year 1840 amounted to £5,500,000,
in 1860 reached £15,000,000, and in
1865 amounted to £17,500,000; thus
showing that tiiere is capital in the
country for the improvement of land, and
that there is not that absence of thrift
in the national character which is so fre-
quently alleged. One question I must
allude to as having a deep bearing on the
prosperity of that country — I mean the
question of railways. At present there
is a total want of system with respect to
them, and they are so disconnected that I
believe the resources of that country will
never be developed until the railways are
placed on a better footing. The fares
ought to be lower, and greater facilities
ought to be given to make the masses of
the population customers of the railways.
At present they are looked upon as a
luxury rather than a necessity. In
order to effect improvements, State inter-
ference may possibly be required ; but I
believe the increase of traffic would in
time reimburse the State for any obliga-
tions it might incur with regard to them.
If a precedent is wanted I might point to
YOIh CLXXXY. [thibd sxbixs.]
India, and I think before long we may be
able to point to one nearer home, for I
am convinced that the necessity of taking
over the tel^^ph system will force itself
on the attention of the Government, and
under the able management of the Post
Office would increase its usefulness to an
extent now littie dreamt of, besides adding
largely to our National revenues. The pro-
gress of the country has been greaUy
retarded by the discontent which has ex-
isted for the last few years under the name
of Fenianism, and which has spread a
blighting influence over the whole island ;
but the announcement made to-day in the
Speech from the Throne points to a hap-
pier state of things, and leads us to be*
lieve that reason and common sense are
resuming their sway, and that the spirit of
discontent is yielding to a spirit of hope
and loyalty. The wise and conciliatory
government of the distinguished noble-
man who is at present Her Majesty's
Viceroy in Ireland (the Marquess of Aber-
com) has largely contributed to this result
—a compliment equally deserved by the
nobleman who preceded him (the Earl
of Kimberley). I accept, as marking a
new era, the measures announced by the
Oovemment« I look upon them as a
harbinger of peace, and as a proof that the
spirit of Fenianism is drawing towards an
end. It is not unnatural that I should
turn from Ireland to our North American
Provinces, where, if there had been any
good ground for its reception, Fenianism
might have been expected to And a home.
But the miserable attempts made there to
introduce it only tested the loyalty of the
colonists, and proved how strong was the
tie which binds the colonies to the mother
country. In order to appreciate the ad-
vantages of consolidation it is perhaps
necessary to visit them, and to become
conversant, as I have become, with their
almost inexhaustible resources, and the
steady enei^ of the people. Covering
400,000 square miles, embracing near
4,000,000 of people, bound together by a
community of interests and devotedly at-
tached to the institutions of this country
and to the Throne and person of the Queen,
it would be difficult to speculate as to the
resuHs which may grow out of the union
of these flue Provinces. I have heard
it said that there is danger to Imperial
interests in this measure, and that na-
tional aspirations may arise. I have no
such fear. I believe the connection be-
tween the North American Provinces and
D
87
AiirM to
fCOMKOKS)
SiftMqftOfon
as
the mother oountry xesti on more endur-
ing foondationsy and that they will be
more than oyer an important element in
our national resonrcee. Knowing as I do
the dii&cnlties which mast have beeet the
negotiations for saoh a oonsolidatton— -the
jealonsies and rivalries whioh mnst have
arisen, and the personal saorifloes which
mnst have been made— I shonld. not be
doin^ jnstiee to the del^;ates from the
Provinces if I did not say th^ are enti-
tled to the highest credit fbr the manner
in which they have fulfilled their delicate
but most important duties.
I have now to thank the House for the
indulgence whioh has been shown to me,
and to express a hope that the measures
alluded to in the Speech — measures of vast
importance to the oountry— may be dealt
with by the House in a spirit of forbear-
anoci wisdom, and conciliation. And my
highest wish is that at the end of the Ses-
aion we may be permitted to look back with
satis&etion and to feel that among the
measures we have passed is one for widen-
ing the bases of our institutions, and that
by our legislation we have oonMbuted to
the happiness and well-being of the people
of this country. The hon. GtoAeman
concluded by seoonding the Motion.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That,*' ko. {See Page 64.]
Mb. GLADSTONE : I rise, Mr. Speaker,
for the purpose of supporting the Address
which has been moved and seconded from
the opposite Benohes. I heartily approve
that well-established rule which on all oc-
oasions discourages the needless importa-
tion of subjects of difforenoe into the de-
bate on the Address to the Crown in
answer to the Boyal Speech ; and I con-
fess that on this oocasion, independently
of much other matter which the AddrMs
contains, and which we should wish to
see brought out in discussion wiUi the
most &.Tourable auanices, there are three
announcements which of themselves would
suffice, I think, to make any candid and
weU-judging man reluctant to see dissen-
sion mtioduced into this debate. I mean
.the announcement of a measure for the
union of the North American Provinces;
the announcement of a measure oir that
most important subject, the state of the
relations between landlord and tenant in
Ireland — and, I must add, in terms in
which I do not think the most fiistidious
among ua ean find anything to object to ;
and thirdly, the announoementi not less
gratifying than either of the others, bii4
even more gratifying, that in the judgm«D^
of Her Majesty's Government the time has
arrived when the existence of ezoeptioaal^
and in one sense arbitrary, power in Ire*
land may reach its termination. I not;
only, therefore, am unprepared to move
any Amendment on the Address myself*
but if there were any Gentleman who en-
tertained a different disposition, and to
whom I might without impropriety ofifor
a recommendation, I would earnestly be- '
eeedi him to forbear from executing such
an intention. Passing, however, to the
subjects -— the numerous and important
subjects — touched upon in the Speech
from the Throne, I am anxious to offer
some remarks on some paragraphs which
the Speech contains. And first, I will
dwell for a moment on that very mo-
mentous question, the Correspondence be-
tween the Government of the United
Kingdom and the Government of the
United States of America, in reference to
questions pending between the two coun-
tries, whicn questions have arisen out of
the late Civil War. And I wish to convey
an assurance to the noble Lord the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs, on the
part of all with whom I have had an op-
portunity of communicating, that what-
ever he may have done or whatever he
may propose to do on the subjeot will be
judgM, not in the narrow spirit of exact-
ing horn him, or endeavouring to exaet
from him, a precise conformity to the steps
we ourselves have taken, but that as long
as his measures and his policy may in our
view be consistent with the honour and
eondudve to the interests of the oountry,
everything which may proceed from him
and his Colleagues will receive at our
hands a most favourable consideration.
Then I go on to the paragraph in the
Speech relating to the insurrection which
has distracted— I know not to what ex-
tent it still distraote— the important island
of Candia. I miss tcom the Boyal Speech
an intimation which it is very common to
convey — that upon certain subjects, and
especially subjects of foreign pokey, which
have reached a certain degree of matu-
rity, it is the intention of Her Ma-
jesty's Goveminent to submit papers to
the House. Indeed, I observe that an
hon. Friend of mine (Mr. Gregory) has
already given notice of his desue to
obtain information in tiiat shape, and I •
feel myself justified in expressugahope
that Her Hajesty's Govermnent will be
M
H0rMo$i
(Fkbbvabt 5y 18671
GracMUB Speech. 70
pirepared to lay before us sooh infonnation
on the Babject aa they poasesa — ^for this
qneaiion ia one which, al&ongh of foreign
ooBcem, yet cannot be regarded aa very
remote from our interesta; nay, more, it
cannot be regarded aa a question in which
we are altt^ther without righta. We
know not at present from any authentio
Bonroe the cause of this insurrection : we
know, howeyer, the deplorable calamitiea
with which it haa hem attended, and the
desperate resolution with which, against
enormous odda, the battle has been fought
Now, what I am desirous to know — and I
hope that the papers when presented by
Her Majesty's Government will prove
what I am desirous to know— is that the
Government of the Sultan is not responsible
for this insurrection, but that it had, be-
fore the commencement of the outbreak,
given faithful and full execution to that
important instrument— the hatti-scheriff—
issued at the close of the Crimean war for
the purpose of securing to the Christian
subjects of the Porte at least the civil
equality to which they were justly en-
tilled, and which had been too long with-
held. Thia ia a question not only of the
utmoat gravity in itself, but one of justice
in its connection with the general interests
of humanity rather than with any special
British int^sts in a more narrow sense ;
and it ia likewise of the utmost importance
with referenoe to the future peace of
Europe. I congratulate Her Majesty's
Government most cordially that the time
haa arrived when they are able to promise
us — forming their judgment on the circum-
stances of the moment — that they will
not» under these circumstances, apply for
an extension of the exceptional powers of
the Government in Ireland; and I join
with them in rcpoioing that the spirit
which has been displayed by the commu-
nity itself in aid of the Government has
proved to be so potent an ally in avert-
ing the evil which at one time we had
been led to apprehend — a phenomenon
new in the history of Ireland — a pheno-
menon which, I trusty will lead to much
reflection upon its causes, and which, after
that reflection, will prove a powerful en-
couragement to us to prosecute the policy
of liberality and of justice towards Ire-
land, of which, in part, we have already
witnessed the happy effect. Her Majesty's
Gofemment refer to a subject of great in-
terest in connection with the condition of
the aimy» and with the foundation of an
efflfiient anny of lesenrey If I oaught
correctly the words of the Address, the
promise which it is proposed to meJce to
Her Majesty's Government in return is
that we wUl cheerfully consider any de*
mand which may be made for our assent
to a moderate increase of expenditure.
Now, I must confess that, if I were a
captious critic, I should a little doubt
whether cheerfulness of consideration is
exactly that form of consideration which
representatives of the people should give
to proposala for an increase of expendi-
ture. A careful and a ready consideration
I have no doubt that subject will have,
and I trust a fair and even a liberal con-
sideration. Most certainly I express my
confldence that, while we shall expect
the Government to show that expenses
which are perhaps necessary in t)no direc-
tion can be compensated by savings in
another, the Government will receive the
cordial support of this House in every
well-conceived and every effectual mea-
sure for the attainment of that most de-
sirable object, the foundation of a good
system of army reserve. The Speech also
touches upon a subject as delicate as it is
important, in the reference it makes to
an inquirv that is about to be instituted
into the disagreements between employers
of labour and their workmen, and into the
means by which that inquiry is to be pro-
secuted. I think there nave been exagge-
rated statements made on this subject,
which may to a certain extent have acted
on the public mind. Such statements tend
to propagate the idea either that differences
between employers and workmen are now of
a more aggravated character than in former
times, or that the effect of these differences
is to menace the commercial and trading
position of this country. If there be
those who really entertain that apprehen-
sion, let them pay attention to a single
sentence in the speech of the Seconder of
the Address, which acquainted us that the
joint increase in the exports and imports
from and to this country for nine months
of the last year, as compared with nine
mouths of the year preceding, amounted
to £65,000,000. But that is no reason
why the attention of Parliament should
not in every useful manner be given to
a subject which is of the utmost im-
portance, and a matter in which undoubt-
edly there are yet serious difficulties and
senous evils to be remedied. What I hope
is that the interposition of Government in
this matter will be an amicable interposi-
tion,* andinpartioular^tbAtwbonmyriKht
pa
Yl
Adireuto
IGOMHOKS)
jR&r Hafuiy on
ra
hon. Friend the Secretary of State for tlie
Home Department frames his Bill for ob-
taining fiom Parliament powers to make
the inquiry effectiTe he will bear in mind-
as I am sore he will— the ftdl and absolute
right of all indiyiduals, employers and
workmen alike, to bring to market the
commodity they have to dispose of, whe-
ther it be labour or capital, on the best
terms in their power, as long as, and only
as long as, they exercise their own rights
without prejudice to the rights of others.
There is but one other subject on which I
hare to detain the House for a few mo-
ments, and it is the subject to which — as
has been rightly said by the hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Liverpool (Mr. Graves)
—there attaches at the present time an
all-absorbing interest — I mean the question
of the representation of the people. But
I will here first offer a comment upon that
which many of us had anxiously expected
to see alluded to, but which, probably for
some good and sufficient cause, does not
appear in the Speech. I presume that is
probably owing to the circumstance that
the recent inquiries into corrupt practices
in certain boroughs are not yet so abso-
lutely completed as to have enabled the
Government to advise the Crown to refer
to this subject. At all events, nothing was
said in reg^ to it. I am sure it is one
which, from its importance, well deserves
notice. If the question of Parliamentary
Beform be difficult, at least it ought not to
be difficult to deid with certain of its
branches, such as cases of proved corrup-
tion. I beg to say that this evil, which
has grown, perhaps, not more intense— I
hope, on the contrary, lees intense — but
which has grown fiur more patent, and
therefore more scandalous, of late years,
has now become a matter not merely of
domestic policy and expediency, but I will
even venture to say of national honour. As
long as we were in something like exclusive
possession of a representative system, little
notice was taken of these offences in foreign
lands; but we have lived into a period
in which almost every country possesses,
in more or less perfect forms, representative
institutions, and in which some countries
enjoy them in high efficiency. Since tiiat
has been the case, it appears to me tiiat
Europe has conceived what I might al-
most call a sentiment of disgust at finding
that evils of which those countries are
scarcely conscious have become so rife and
so virulent among ourselves. I hope it
will be understoodthat I assume there is
a cause for silence in Her Majesty's Speeeh
on tins subject; but I must express the
hope tiiat when Her Majesty's Government
take into their consideration some of the
Beports — ^I will not now presume to de-
cide which they may be — ^in which it shall
appear, on judicial authority, that oon-
stituenoies are tainted, as they have been
in some former and well-remembered in«
stances, they will not ask us tq infiiet the
almost nominal and wholly unsatis&etory
punishments which have bounded our ac-
tion on former occasions, but will give
evidence to the world, by something in
the nature of strictness and severity, that
we are in earnest on this particular ques-
tion. As regards the paragraph in the
Speech of Her Majesty, it is obviously
open to the remark that its language is in
some degree enigmatical; but I do not
think it will be Mr to make that circum-
stance a subject of complaint. On the
contrary, I think Her Majesty's Govern-
ment are perfectly justifi^ in reserving^
that full explanation of their intentions to
a future day which, if it had been at*
tempted to-day, in a form necessarily im-
perfect, would probably have tended te
prejudice the settlement of the question.
Therefore, in assenting to the paragraph
as it stands, I do so upon the double
ground that there is nothing in its Ian*
gaage which can give rise to a just reflee-
tion ; and, important as is every matter
connected with this subject, both as to
substance and as to procedure, under pre-
sent circumstances, I, for myself, and
others, if they are so minded, retain the
most perfect liberty to canvass, both as to
substance and as to procedure, the mea-
sures and the steps to be taken by Her
Majesty's Government, when in the proper
time we become fully acquainted with
them. I think there are three points in
which may be summed up, in a great de-
gree, our interest in the consideration
and management of this matter. There
is the question by whom the measure of
Parliamentary Beform is to be submitted
to Parliament ; there is the question what
is to be the substanoe and effect of such a
measure ; and lastly, there is the question
when such a measure is to be brought
under our notice, and when it is to reach
its completion. As regards the first of
those questions — ^by whom the measure is
to be Bubmitted-^I humbly represent to
the House that at this moment the interest
of the country in the speedy settlement of
the question is all-impcortant; and, if there
73
SerMoit
(FSBBUABT 6, 1867}
Orachui Spmh, 74
be any of ns who are less sangmne than
hon. Gentlemen opposite as to the possible
proceedings of Her Majesty's GoTernment,
that is no reason for endeayonring to oast
impediments in their course. It is our duty
to accept, wherever we can get it, a measure
which will be adequate to meet the just
expectations of tlie country ; and if we
intend to be willing parties to the intro-
duction of such a measure by Her Ma-
jesty's Government, we ought not by any-
thing we may*now say or do to cast even
the smallest difficulty in the way of that
introduction. Sir, as respects the sub-
stance of the measure, I do not think the
present occasion a proper one to discuss
it; but as respects the time of the mea-
sure, I must again say, it appears to me
that even the question of the substance is
hardly more important. It is not neces-
sary now to retrace the wearisome and
irksome details of this protracted contro-
vert, or to reinind the House how many
Sessions, how many Queen's Speeches, how
many Parliaments have been involved.
One thing only we can say, and that is,
it is impossible for legislation to proceed
in its orderly and accustomed course until
this matter is disposed of— until this mat-
ter is disposed of it stops the way; it
disturbs and impedes, and it not only dis-
turbs and impedes, but it embitters every
attempt to deal with other questions of
difficulty. The vast and varied interests
of this country, growing apparently more
vast and more varied every day, and, in
proportion as we reap the harvest of legis-
lation with assiduity, causing new and
thicker crops to spring afreet from the
ground soliciting our attention, render it
our duty to see and require that the mea-
sures adopted — so far as we can require
from others — shall be directed towards the
attainment, not only of an effectual, but
also of a speedy settlement of this ques-
tion. I therefore ask myself how I am
to interpret the paragraph in which this
■abject has been brought under our notice,
and I cannot doubt as to the mauner in
which I am justified in construing it. I
will not ask for explanations ; I will not
make any remark which would have a
tendency to force the Government to offer
explanation for the purpose of avoiding
nusapprehension; but what I understand
by this paragraph is this : — Her Majesty's
Goyemment, like ourselves, like the gene-
rality of the House, including their own
foUowers and the whole country without
distinction of partyi are sensible of the
necessity of dealing promptly with this
matter, and that, upon the earliest day
which they can choose for the purpose,
they will be prepared to propose, on their
own responsibility, such measures as they
shall think will be most effectual for the
attainment, the effective attainment, and,
above all, the speedy attainment of their
object and the just satisfaction- of the
wishes of the country. I hope there is
nothing unreasonable in that expectation.
If that expectation be a just one, we
ought to rest perfectly satisfied, cherish-
ing the hope that the time is at hand
when we may be able to remove from our-
selves and out of the way this obstacle, and
to remove from ourselves what threatens
to become, if we do not remove it, a stand-
ing discredit to Parliament and tiie insti-
tutions of the land, and to give to all the
other vast and diversified interests of the
country that attention which they so im-
peratively solicit at our hands.
The CHANGELLOB of the EXCHE-
QUER : I heard. Sir, with great satis-
faction from the right hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Gladstone) that there was no
prospect of an Amendment to the Address
"being proposed to-night. After so long a
separation it really is far from agreeable
that on the first night we meet together
we should resupaie our struggles ; and in
the months that are before us many oppor-
tunities will arise to compensate hon.
Gentlemen for the self-restraint which
they exercise now. There are one or two
points to which the right hon. Gentleman
has referred which I will notice before I
touch on his last more interesting in-
quiiy. The right hon. Gentleman has done
justice to the contents of Her Majesty's
most gracious Speech, and I think I may
congratulate my Colleagues upon its recep-
tion by the House generally, though I am
sure we owe it in some degree to the able
interpretation which has been put upon it
by my hon. Friends who moved and se-
conded the Address, the first with a pleas-
ing propriety I am sure all must acknow-
ledge, the Seconder with a weight of au-
thority derived from his position and his
acquaintance with commercial pursuits. In
answer to the question which has been put
by the right hon. Gentleman with reference
to the disturbances in Crete, I may say
that papers will certainly be presented on
the subject. I believe my noble Friend
(Lord Stanley) had a reason which for a
short time may influence him in not im-
mediately presenting tiiem to the House %
75
Qusm^t Speech^
(COlOfOKS]
JRtlport of Addreu.
W
bat when that reason ceases to operate,
raj noble Friend will take the earliest
opportnnity of laying them on the table of
the House. The right hon. Qentleman
(Mr. Ghkdstone) also referred to the cir-
cumstance that no allusion was made in
the Queen's Speech to the inquiries into
proceedings in certain boroughs. The
reason why we made no reference to these
inquiries was that the reports of them
have not been receiyed by the Government.
[An hon. Mexbbb : Not all.] Some have ;
but the right hon. Gentleman will feel
that it would be conyenient and proper to
have them all in our possession before we
make any announcement on the subject.
The right hon. Gentleman then, in a tone
of which I am sure I have no cause to
complain, referred to the paragraph in
the Speech announcing that the attention
of Parliament will be called to the state
of the representation of the people ; and I
think the right hon. Gentleman, remem-
bering, I have no doubt, his experience in
the position which I now have the honour
to occupy, felt how very inconvenient it
would be if, on the first day of the Session,
a number of inquiries were made the an-
swers to which might only lead to misap*
prehension, and which would really not be
fair to those who are responsible for the
consequences. I will not trouble the right
hon. Gentleman and the House at any
length upon the subject, because, with the
permission of the House, I mean to take,
not only an early, but the earliest day at
our command in order to bring the whole
subject before the House. [An hon. Mem-
nxR : What day ?] Monday next. That
is the first day at our disposal, and I then
propose to state the course which the Go-
vernment mean to take upon this subject,
and generally to enter into the matter. 1
trust, therefore, that under these circum-
stances we may not be pressed to make any
statements to-night, but that we may be al-
lowed to reserve our views and state them
fully on that oocasion. The right hon. Gen-
tleman has done justice to the important
subjects which have been brought under
the notice of the House in the Speech
from the Throne. I am aware, as all must
be aware, that it will require on the part
of the House considerable effort to do
justice to the several themes which will be
brought before them. But re-action is the
law of life, and it is the characteristic of
the House of Commons. There have been
complaints of late of indolence and want
of assiduity on ttie part of this House.
Th$ Chancelkr of the E9chsj%9r
It is said that we have passed through Ses-
sion after Session without doing what our
duty required. Now, in this Session an ad-
mirable opportunity will be afforded to the
House, and if they only follow the example
which the Government are prepared to set
by the devotion of their time and labour to
the pursuit of these propositions, I think
we need not be frightened by the quantity
of business before us, but may rather look
forward to the end of a S^9sion which will
redound to the public advantage and to
the character of tiiis Assembly*
Motion agreed to.
Committee t^ppeinted, to draw up an Addresa
to be presented to Her Majest/ upon the nid
Reiolaiion :^Mr. Da 6ur, Mr. Gbavu, Mr.
Chahokllob of the ExoBBqoxB, Mr. Secretary
Walpoli, Lord Stihut, Geoenl Pssl, Viieoani
CaAHBOuKifB, Sir Jomr PiKiiroToir, Lord Jobs
Manhxrs, Sir Statfobd Nobtboots» Mr. 6a-
TBOBBB Habdt, Lord Naas, Mr. Attobbbt Q«-
BXBAL, Mr. HuBT, Aod Colonel Tatlob, or anj
Fife of them: — ^To withdraw immediatelj: —
i^aeen'i Speech referred.
House a^joomed at Seven o'clock*
^AA^<iAMM«to
HOtrSE OF COMMONS,
Wedneeday, FAruary 6, 1867.
MINUTES.]— Nbw Wbits Issubd— JFVh- The Col-
lege of the Holy Triniix, Dablin, v. Right hon.
John Edward Walsh, Matter of the RoUe for
Ireland ; for Gal way Town, tf. Right hon. Mi-
chael Morris, Attorney General for Ireland; for
AndoTcr, v. William Ucnry Uumpherj, esqmro,
Chiltem Hundreds. ;
Nbw Mbmbib Swobb — ^Arthur KaTanagh, eeqoirey
for Wexford Connty.
PuBUO Bills -^ Ordertd — Finsbury Estate * ;
Annuity Tax Abolition (Edinburgh, Parish of
Canongate)* ; Joint Stock Companies (Voting
Papers).*
FWit RMdiiM^Tiwkhvxj Estate* [1] ; Anaoity
Tax Abolition (Edinborgh, Parish of Canon-
gate)* [21; Joint Stock Companies (Voting
Papers)* [3].
QUEEN'S SPEECH.
REPORT OF ADDRESS.
Beport of Addreaa hrwght up and lead.
On Motion, to agree to the Addresa —
Mb. HADFIELD complained that no
allusion had been made in the Speech to
the question of church rates, although it
would be in the recollection of the Honse
77
Fumhiry
[FuBTTABTfi, 1867}
SOaUBM.
7S
that a Bill dealing with that sabjeot was
actually Tead a second time last Session.
Ma. WALPOLE rose to order. I do
not know whether it is usual for an hon.
Member to go into a subject not immedi-
ately lelatog to the Address. The course
being taken by the hon. Gentleman is
somewhat inoouTenienti and may lead to
some discussion.
Mb. SP^AUOt : It would be open to
the hon. Membert on the Question that
the Address be read a second time, to
refer to any particular passage in the
Address, or to more an Amencbnent, but
not to open a discussion on subjects irre-
levant to the Address.
Mb. HADFIELD believed that he was
in order, and that he had a right to notice
a palpable omission in the Address, and
to argue that an addition ought to be
made to it. He did not want to raise
any discussion upon the matter ; but he
thought that reference in the Address
ought to be made to a subject of debate
in that House for the last thirty years,
and that some intimation should be given
to the country on the subject of church
rates. It appeared to mm that they
ought not to blmk a question of thirty
years' standing in that House. The
House had by large majorities established
the principle that abolition should be
either entire, or that persons should not
be sued for church rates. He therefore
begged leave to move an addition to the
Address to the effect that this House re-
presents to Her Majesty its r^;ret that no
allusion whatever has been made in the
Speech from the Throne to the subject of
church rates — a subject which had been
repeatedly discussed in this House. In
his opinion the matter ought to be dis-
posed of; and that it would be a great
relief to the country if it were removed
£rom discussion, ne certainly understood
last Session that an attempt would be
made by the Government to deal with the
question, and they ought not to shrink
from it.
Mb. BAINES, in seconding the Mo-
tion, said, that tiie subject was one of so
much importance, and had occupied so
very prominent a position in the discus-
nous of this House for many years, and
especiallv last Session, that he could not
but thins it was ezoeedingly right for the
House to express ito regret Oiat no men-
tion was made of the subject in the
Boyal Speech.
Mb. BPEASXBs The hon. Member
for Sheffield is quite in order in express-
ing an opinion upon the subject ; but with
regard to the proposal that he has made,
according to the rules of this House, he is
not in order. The time for moving an
Amendment to the Address is while it is
under discussion for the second reading ;
but after the Motion has been put from
the Chair that the House do agree with
the Committee in the said Besolutions,
the opportunity has passed. Accordingly,
he cannot now move the Amendment.
The H^uestion for the House is that the
House do agree with the said Address.
Address agreed fo ; to be presented by
Privy Councillors.
Qukek's Spbecb to be eanridered To-
motrow*
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
QUESTIOK.
Mb. HIBBERT said, the Home Secre-
tary would probably be able to answer a
Question, of which he had privately given
him notice — ^namely, Whether it Ib his
intention to bring in any Bill based on
the Beport of the Eoyal Commission on
Capital Punishment; and, if so, whether
that Bill will contain clauses as to the
mode of carrying out capital punishment ?
Mb. WALPOLE said, the Bill of last
year did not come down from the House
of Lords till nearly the close of the Ses-
sion. The Government, exercising the
best judgment upon the subject of which
they were capable, thought it ought to be
amended in point of form. But he could
now inform his hon. Priend that two Bills
had been already prepared, having for
their object to separate the two distinct
branches of the subject — ^namely, one re-
lating to the law of murder, the other to
the mode in which capital -offences are
to be carried into execution. The two
Bills would shortly be introduced, and
hon. Members would have an opportunity
of considering their provisions.
Mb. HADFIELD wanted toknow whe-
ther the Government had any Bill pre-
pared founded upon the Eeport of the
Commission on Oaths and Dcckrations.
Mb. WALPOLE : No ; there is no Bill
prepared at the present moment, because
the Commission has not as yet made its
Beport.
VZVSBtTBT SSTATB BILL.
On Motion of Mr. Atbtov, Bill to sppropriAto
a portion of (he inooftio of the estate Islolj be^
79
AedimUin
(LOBDS)
CoolMimin
BO
longioff to the Prebeod of Fioslmrjr* in the Oa-
ihedral of St Paul, London, for the relief of
spiritual destitntion in the Motropolii, ordered to
be brought in hj Mr. Atbtov and Mr. Locsa.
Bi}\pr€9enuif and read the iint time. [Bill 1.]
Amnnrr tax aboutiok (iDnrBUsaH,
PAXI8H OF CAITOKOATB) BILL.
On Motion of Mr. M'Uuir, Bill to aholish the
Annuit/ Tax, or Ministers' Money, in the Parish
of Ganongate within Edinburgh, and to make pro*
▼ision in regard to the Stipends of the Ministers
in that narish and eity, ordered to be brought in
bj Mr. M'LAniir, Jilr. Du]n.op,and Mr. BasSkb.
BiU |>rM«iKde2, and read the first time. [Bill 3.]
jonn! STOCK coxpaviss (totikg papers)
BILL.
On Motion of Mr. Dabbt GRirmH, Bill to
afford Shareholders of Joint Stook Companies ia-
eilities for TOting bj means of Voting Papers,
ordered to be brought in hj Mr. Dabbt CrBxrviTH,
Mr. Robert Toeuxs, and Mr. Vam ox.
Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 8.]
Hoase adjourned at a quarter
before One acloek.
^AA^^^WM^M^k
HOUSE OF LOKDS,
Tkuradaff, FOnrmry 7, 1867.
MINUTES.] — 5a< First in ParKofn^iie — The
Marquees of Exeter, after the Death of his
Father.
Pubuo Bojm ^-First iZAKftt^— Masters and
Operatires (3); Publio Schools (4); Traffic
Regulation (Metropolis) * (5) ; Lis pendens *
• (•)•
MASTERS AND OPERATIVES BILL.
PBESENTED. FISST KBADINO.
Lobs ST. LEONABDS presented a Bill
for eatablishiiig courts of arbitration or con-
ciliation for the settlement of disputes be-
tween masters and workmen. It is neces-
saiy, the noble Lord remarked, to take some
steps for preyenting the strikes which are
so detrimental to our industry and mana-
ftctures. To put a stop to a strike bj
laW| when once it has commenced, is per-
fectly impossible, because a state of war
is then established between the master
and his workmen, and this can be termi-
nated by nothing but victory on the one
side or the other. If, however, courts of
conciliation are established, there can be
no doubt that they will be freely resorted
to, and that their action will tend both to
prevent and to arrange disputes. Under the
Bill which he proposed to introduce, leave
will be given to the masters and men in
everj district to establish such courts;
but It will not be compulsory upon them
to do so, nor even to submit to their juris-
diction when they are established. If,
however, either masters or men do attend
them, and do refer their disputes to them,
then the decision pronounced by these tri-
bunals will have judicial force and would
be enforceable by law. The principle of
the Bill has received the approval of a
deputation of operatives representiDg;
100,000 men engaged in the building;
trades of the metropolis, who had an inter-
view with him a short time ago.
A Bill to establish equitable Conncils of Conci-
liation to adjust Diflbronoes between Masters and
Operatives — Was presented bj The Lord Sr.
LioHAxni ; read I*. (No. 8.)
PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL.
FKisxirrED. nnsi BXAniNO.
TseEabl of DERBY, in laying on the
table a Bill to give effect to the recom-
mendations of the Eoyal Commission on
Public Schools, stated that the measure
was almost identical with tbai which had
been introduced last year, but which was
sent to the other House of Parliament at
so late a period of the Session that it was
found impossible to pass it into law.
A Bill to make further Provision for the good
Government and Extension of oertain Pnblle
Sohools — ^Wai presetUed bj The Earl of Dbbbt ;
rsMil*. (No. 4.)
ACCIDENTS IN COAL MINES.
ADDRESS POB A PAPEB.
The Eabl of BELMOBE moved^
** That an humble Address be presented to Her
Msjostj, for Copies of a Circular Letter from the
Home Ome to, and Reports from, the Inspeeton
of Mines to the SeoretM7 of State for the Home
Department as to the reoent Aooidents and Ex*
plosions in Coal Mines."
LoBD WHABI^^CLIFFE, in moving for
further papers, said, he hoped he might
regard the Motion of the noble Earl as an
indication that the attention of the Govern-
ment was directed to the important quee-
tion of the inspection of mines. Living as
he did in the neighbourhood of the scene of
one of the recent calamities, he had given
much consideration to the subject, and
thought that the law ought to be amended
so as to give inspectors of mines additional
powers. In one instaooo which came
Si
{FebbvastTi 1867)
Ml Oriisa.
82
vithin his own knowledge a mine was
Buppoaed to be in a dangerous state. The
person who was interested in it warned
those who worked in it of the danger, and
at the same time a letter was written to
tibe Government inspector, who replied
that nothing ooold be done in the matter.
The number of inspectors at present exist-
ing was quite inadequate to the work to
be performed. lasted of their visiting
mines only when they were reported to be
unsafe, every mine ought to be regularly
and periodically inspected. He hoped that
the Government would devote their atten-
tion to the subject, and would introduce
the necessary amendments into the Act of
Parliament.
Ths Eabl 07 BELMOBE, in reply,
said, that there would be no objection to
produce the document desired by the noble
Lord ; and further stated that it was the
intention of the Home Secretary to refer
all the papers to the Committee of the
House of GoDunons which sat last Session
to inquire into the subject of the inspec-
tion of mines, and which it was intended
to re-appoint this year. He entirely agreed
with the noble Lord as to the insufficiency
of the number of inspectors. Mr. Wynne,
the inspector of the Staffordshire district,
told him the other day that he had under
his charge 300 or more collieries and 900
mines; and that he could never inspect
more than three mines a day, and some-
times only one. It was therefore impos-
sible that he could make an inspection of
each of these mines as often even as once
a year.
Motion amended, and agreed to.
Address for«-
Copiet of a Ciroalar Letter from the Ilome
OflBoe to, and Reports from, the Inspeotors of
Biinei to the Secretary of State for the Home
Department on the recent Accidents and Ezplo-
tions in Coal Mines ; together with the Letter of
Instmetions of 20th January 1867, from the Se-
eretary of State lor the Home Department to
Mr. Sothem the recently appointed Inspector of
Mines.— ( Tha Earl of Belmore.)
TRLWnO JtBOXTLATIOK (mXIBOPOLIS) BILL
[h.l.]
A Bill for regulating the Traffic in the Metro-
Silis, and for making Provision for the greater
eenrity of Persons passing through the Streets ;
and for other purposes — ^Was pretenUd hy The
Barl of Baufois ; read 1». (No. 6.)
UB nomiNa bill [h.l.]
A Bill to amend the Companies Aet» 1882, and
abo the Aet pmed ia ths Seaaioa Md in the
Twenty-third and Twenty-fourth Tears of the
Reign of Her M^esty, intituled *' An Act to sim-
plify and amend the Practice as to the Entry of
Satisfiiction on Crown Debts and on Judgments"
— ^Was preienUd by The Lord Sv. LioirABDS ;
readl*. (No. 6.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Six
o'clock, till To-morrow, a ouarter
before Five o clock.
■#»^^>^^^#»^^^^^#*
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Tkureiayi Febrmry 7, 1867.
MINUTES.]— Nbw Whit Issusd— Fdr Cork
County, V. George Richard Barry, esquire, de-
ceased.
SiLEOT CoionTTix — On Kitchen and Refresh-
ment Rooms (House of Commons) appoinUd
and nomncUed.
Public Bills — Retolutioni in Commttee Ship-
ping Local Dues ; Transubstantiation, Ac De-
claration Abolition ; Offices and Oaths.
Ordered — Rulway Companies' Arrangements ;
Shippinff Local Dues ; Transubstantiation,
d(C. Declaration Abolition ; Offices and Oaths.
Firtt iZeeu^n^— Railway Companies' Arrange-
ments [4] I Shipping Local Dues [5] ; Tran-
substantiation, d(o. Declaration Abolition [61;
Offices and Oaths [7].
INDIA— FAMINE IN ORISSA.
QTTESnOK.
Mb. WALDEGEAYE-LESLIE asked
the Secretary for India, Whether he is
able to report any oondderable decrease in
the famine in Orissa; and he wished, in
addition, to ask whether the noble Lord
is prepared to lay any papers relating
to Uie subject on the table of the House ?
YisoouNT CBAKfiOURNE : Yes, I am
happy to say that a considerable decrease
of the famine has been reported. In fact,
distress now only exists in those districts
in which the inundations of last autumn
destroyed the growing crops. In those
districts there will be, I fear, considerable
distress, but they are only of rery limited
extent. With regard to the papers, I hope
that I shall be able to lay them before the
House at an early period ; but until the
Report of the Commission appointed to
inquire into the subject has been receiyed,
I do not think it would be just to officers
of Gk>Temment in the Presidency of Ben-
gal to lay before the House the rery par-
tial information which we at present
pvssessi
83
Opmng of
MERCANTILE BIARINE.
QUKttUOK.
fOOUllONSt
9H0 oMN0fl«
M
Mb. OANDLISH askod the President
of the Board of Trade, If it is his inten«
tion to introduce a measure to consolidate
and amend the Laws regulating our Mer-
cantile Marine ?
Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I
am aware that it is an object of consider-
able importance to consolidate and amend
the laws relating to our Mercantile Marine.
I am afraid, howeyer, the task is one of
great difficulty and labour. That, how-
ever, would not be any reason for our
declining to undertake it The reason
why we are not now prepared with a
measure of the kind is this:— It is our
intention to introduce a Bill containing
several important Amendments of the pre-
sent law, and I think it will be much
more satisfactory to discuss these Amend-
ments by themselves. The Bill will be
introduced into the House as early as the
state of public business will allow. If
we shall be able within a reasonable time
to pass it, I hope we shall have time to
prepare a Consolidation Bill and to lay it
on the table of the House before the end
of the Session, so that it may be well
considered before the discussion be taken
on it in the following Session.
OPENING OF THE SESSION— ACCESS OF
MEMBERS TO THE HOUSE— POLICE
ORDERS.— (QUESTION.
Lonn ERNEST BRUCE asked the Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department,
By whose authority Sir Richard Mayne,
Chief Commissioner of the Police of the
Metropolis, issued certain Orders to the
police that no Members of Parliament be
allowed to approach the Houses of Parlia^
ment in their carriages after a certain hour
on the occasion of Her Majesty graciously
opening Parliament in person; and why,
when fiiey were by this order obliged to
descend ttom their carriages, no path what-
ever was kept open for them ; whether it
was not the undoubted constitutional right
of Members to attend Her Majesty on such
an occasion; and whether such Order of the
Commissioner of Police was not in direct
defianoe of a Sessional Order of that House;
and why the hoarding the whole length of
Bridge Street was kept, and still kept^
entirely closed }
Mb. CRAWFORD said, that as this
was a question which oonoexaed very
nearly the privileges of the House, he
elaimed this opportunity of stating, by
way of complaint, what his own expe-
rience had been in coming from the City
on Tuesday last. On arriving at the Sur-
rey side of Westminster Bridge he was
stopped by a cordon of police and informed
that he could not pass over the bridge. Ho
stated that he was a Member of the House
of Commons, and was proceeding to West-
minster to discharge a public duty. Some
demur was made, but eventually he was
allowed to go on. On arriving at the West-
minster side of the bridge, he found that
he could not reach the House by the usual
mode of access through Palace Yard in
consequence of the hoarding which had
been extended much further than it was
last Session. He found also that Bridge
Street was entirely blocked up by an im-
mense concourse of persons, so that he
could not get through by that route.
There was no policeman at hand to refer
to ; and he had, therefore, to consider whe-
ther he should force his way through
the crowd, or choose the alternative of
re-crossing the bridge and going over
Lambeth or Blackfriars Bridge, il^nding
retreat very difficult, he essayed the task
of finding his way through the crowd.
After considerable difficulty he sucoeeded
in getting through the barrier to the other
side owing to the friendly intervention of
a policeman. When he reached Parliament
Street he was in a state in which it would
hardly have been decent to present him-
self to that House. His boots had been
trodden on, and his clothes were covered
with mud. Kow, what happened to him
happened also to several other Members of
that House, among whom he might mention
the Member for Dover, the Member for
Buckingham, the Member for Inverness,
and the Member for Bridgwater. The
hon. Member for Inverness had to return
over Westminster Bridge and proceed in
a cab over Waterloo Bridge^ and so to
Charing Cross, where he was told he must
alight He did so, and proceeded on foot
to the House through the pelting rain and
mud two inches deep. On the other side
of Westminster Bridge Members were
called on to identify themselves by show-
ing their cards or in some other way.
Now, he maintained this was subjecting
them to a great indignity. He did not
complain on account of his personal incon-
venience— ^indeed, it might be regarded as
a subject of pleasantry by some persons —
and is £» the crowd he had no oomi
8k
Ihdia —
{IpBBBtTABT y, 1867} Iniian Bnigd.
86
to make against them, as he had never
seen so vast a concourse of people in such
good spirits and so happy. He should, in
fact, he the last person to complain of their
yery natural hilarity, and had no wish to
interfere with what was regarded as an
annual holyday. What he complained of
was the manner in which the Police Order
had heen issued. Ko steps had heen taken
to provide that persons coming from the
City to the House of Parliament over West-
minster Bridge — as he himself had heen
accustomed to do for the last ten years
-—should not he debarred from coming to
the House. He wished to ask the right
hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, whether the
Order issued by Sir Eiohard Mayne was
an annual one, and issued as a matter of
course; and, whether steps would be taken
on similar oooasions to facilitate the access
of Members to the House ?
Mb. WALPOLE : With regard to the
observations which have just Mien from
the hen. Member for the City of London
(Mr. Crawford), I have to say that I was
not aware of the personal InconTenience
to which he had been exposed on the occa-
sion of the opening of Parliament, or I
should have made particular inquiries into
the matter. In regard to the Question
addressed to me by the noble Loid (Lord
Ernest Bruce), I think he will find he is
entirely mistaken in his impression as to
the Orders issued to the police. The noble
Lord asks '' by whose authority Sir Bichard
Mayne, Chief Commissioner of the Police
of the Metropolis, issued certain Orders to
the police that no Members of Parliament be
allowed to approach the Houses of Parlia-
ment in their carriages after a certain hour
on the occasion of Her Majesty graciously
opening Parliament in person ?'' And then
he goes on to ask, " Why, when they were
by this Order obliged to descend from their
carriages, no path whatever was kept open
for them } " Kow, my reply is simply this.
No such Order as is referred to in that
Question has been issued by Sir Bichard
Mayne. I hold in my hand extracts firom
the Orders issued by Sir Bichard Mayne in
reference to the access of Members to the
Housea of Parliament, which will dear up
the misapprehension existing on the sub-
ject. The first extract is this-—
** No earriage or Tefaiole of any sort is to bo
allowed to pan between Charing OroM and the
Hooses of Parliament from the boars of 11 a.m.
.nnttl 4 p.m., except the oarriages of Peers and
Members of the Hoose of Commons, or those of
perwDs haTing tickets of adminion to the Houses
of Parliament, or of persons going to any house
between Charing Cross and i^bingdon Street.
The earriages of persons having tiokets of admis«
sion to the Houses of Parliament, or those going
to any house between Charing Cross and the
Houses of Parliament, may pass until 1 p.m.»
and the carriages of Peers or Members of Par-
liament may pass until the arrival of the prooes-
sion of Her Majesty at the Horse Guards, after
which hour no oarriages are to be permitted to
pass between Charing Cross and Abingdon Street
until Her Majesty has passed through Whitehall
on returning from opening Parliament."
Hon. Members are mistaken, therefore, in
supposing that any Order was given that
Members of Parliament should be stopped.
If any Member was required to alight
firomms carriage and walk through the
mud, contrary to this Order, I regret it
yery much. But, there was also an Order
issued with regard to the approach over
Westminster Bridge. This paitioular Order
directs that —
" Erery possible facility is to be giren to the
earriages of Peers and Members of the House of
Commons in proceeding to and leaving the Houses
of Parliament."
The police had strict injunctions to act
upon these Orders. If they mistook their
instructions, and if any Member of Par*
liament was put to inconvenienoe, all I
can say, as I have said before, is that I
extremely r^et it One word with re*
gard to the crowd of which the hon.
Qentleman opposite complains. This year
there was an unusual crowd between the
Houses of Parliament and Parliament
Street, partly in consequence of the works
there. The hoarding raised is one neces-
sary for the works, and temporary incon-
venience is thereby occasioned. The ap-
proaches from Victoria Street and the end
of Bridge Street are closed, and on Tues*
day the foot passengers collected in such
crowds between Parliament Street and
Westminster Bridge, that it was hardly in
the power of the police to keep a passage
clear. This is the explanation which I
have to offer. If the hon. Q^itleman
opposite has anv further complaint to
make, I shall be happy to inquire into it.
With reference to his last observation, that
instructions should be given in future to
prevent inconvenience to Members of Par-
liament, I may say that such instructions
shall certainly be given, and that any ad-
ditional precaution which may tend to
prevent inconvenience shall be taken. .
INDIA— INDIAN BUDG£T.~<iU£STION.
Mb. J. B. SMITH asked the Seoretaiy
of State for India, Whether any and what
B7
Bugpljf'^
(OOlOtONS)
Qii0mUSpNch^
88
arrangements hare been made to present to
Parliament the Indian Acooonts at the
commencement of the Session ; and, whe*
ther he intends to adhere to the practice
hitherto adopted of bringing forward the
Indian Budget in the last week of the
Session of Parliament ?
YisootnrTGEANBOUENE : Orders were
issued by Lord de Grey for the prepara-
tion of the Indian financial accounts in
conformity with the English financial ao-
counis up to the 31st of March. Till very
recently I imagined that the aocounto
would be presented this year under that
order; but I have received a telegram
within the last few days stating that it
could not be done until next year. The
bringing forward the Indian Budget, as
the hon. Gentleman well knows, does not
depend on the time at which the accounts
are laid upon the table, but on the busi-
ness of the House with respect to other
matters. In future Indian accounts are
to be made, like the English accounts, up
to the 31st of March.
H.M.S. "GANNET" AND TflE " AROUCA."
QUESnOK.
Mb. LAMONT asked the First Lord of
the Admiralty, Whether it is true that
the Captain of Her Majesty's ship Gannet
revised or delayed to proceed to the assist-
ance of a Scotch merchant yessel, called
Uie Arouea of Glasgow, in distress off the
Island of Trinidad in the month of No-
vember last; whether it is true that a
French steamer did actually render the re-
quired assistance to the distressed vessel
while the Oannet lay at anchor ; and, whe-
ther he will object to lay upon the table
of the House any Papers which he may
have received relating to the subject ?
Sn JOHN PAXINGTON : No official
information has reached the Admiralty on
the subject of the hon. Member's Ques-
tions. I understand there was a state-
ment made on the subject in a Trinidad
newspaper, which I have not seen. If
there was a statement relative to this
complaint in that paper, I have little
doubt that the circumstance will have
been brought under the notice of the naval
Ck)mmander-in-Ghief of the Station ; and
I think it probable that by the next mail
I shall receive information on the subject.
If so, I diall be able to communicate it ;
and, in any case, if the hon. Gentleman
desires it, I shall be happy to make in«
quiry on the sulrjeet.
Jfr. /. B. SmUh
SEIZURE OF THE <• TORNADO " BT THB
SPANISH AUTHORITIBS.— QUESTION.
Mb. AxDESxur LUSK asked the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Afiairs, Whether
the attention of Her Majesty's Government
has been directed to the seizure by the
Spanish Authorities of an English Steam
Yessel, called the Tornado, on the high,
seas, in August last, and to the imprison-
ment and trial of llie crew ; and, if ao,
whether the Government has taken any
steps to ascertain if the capture is lawful;
if the representations concerning the handi
treatment of the men are well founded or
not; and if there is any probability of
their being soon released and sent home to
tins Country ?
Lord STANLEY : Ever since the cap-
ture of the Tornado in August last the
case has occupied the careful and anxioaa
consideration of the Gh>vemment. We
have watched it in all its stages, and we
have been in frequent, I may say, almost
continual communication upon it with the
Law Officers of the Grown. According to
the well- understood rule of International
Law, we had no right to object to the trial
of the vessel taking place hiefore a Spanish
Prise Court; but we did remonstrate
strenuously, and more than once, against
what appeared to us to be the unreasonable
length of time occupied in the preliminary
investigation. Within the last few weeks
we have had all the proceedings before us.
Acting under legal advice, we have found
ourselves authorised and compelled to pro-
test against the illegal and informal cha-
racter of some of the proceedings of that
Court ; that protest has only very lately
been receired by the Spanish Government
and I am not yet able to say what the
result of it will be. With regard to the
treatment of the men, and generally with
regard to details, I think the best answer
I can give to the hon. Member will be to
ask him to wait a few days, when all
the papers relating to the transaction will
be laid before the House.
SUPPLY— QUEEN'S SPEECH.
Qttxeh's Speech eonridored.
Motion, '* That a Suppler be granted to
Her Majesty :'' — Committee thereupon
To-morrow,
89 Baiho§f/ CmpmM ( Fsbevaht 7» 1 86 Y ) ArrtrngmimU Bill.
60
BAILWAT COMPANIES' ARRANGE-
MENTS BILL.
UBiLTB. VIBfil ssAsma.
Bib 8TAFF0BD NORTHOOTE, in ask-
ing for leave to introdaee a Bill to make
better proviaion for the arrangementa of
the afiTaira of Bailway Companies nnable to
meet their engagements, said : I think the
Honae will not be sorprised that the posi-
tion of the railway oompanies in this
country should have attracted the attention
of Her Majesty's QoTemment. In point
of fact, there are few questions which have
been more before the pnblio of late than
the embarrassed position of some of our
railway companiea—especially the embar-
rassed position of one of them. Many
important questions affectiug the future
position of railways and the relations of
the companies and the State may, at the
proper time» engage the attention of Par-
liameut, and to these it will be right that
the Oovemment should by-and-bye draw
attention ; but I think that we are not at
the present moment ripe for the considera-
tion of many of these questions, because
the Boyal Commission which was appointed
a short time since to consider the import-
ant points in our railway system is still
sitti^, and has not yet presented its
Eeport. I understand, however, that it is
nearly completed, and when it is presented
to the House it will, of course, be the duty
of ti^e Government to take it into serious
consideration, and they may think it their
duty, upon the recommendations contained
in &at Report, to make proposals to this
House, which it is now, of course, quite
impossible to anticipate. I do not, then,
thmk that this is the proper time for con-
sidering many of the questions which
affect railways, and to which public atten-
tion has been directed ; but there is one
urgent question, of great magnitude, to
wmch we think it is desirable the atten-
tion of Parliament should be directed, and
that is the question of the arrangements
t^ shall be made in the case of railway
companies which are unfortunately unable
to meet their engagements. The Gh>vem-
ment has thought it desirable to bring
their proposal before the House at the com-
mencement of the Session — partly because
th^ wish that the House should have an
early opportunity of considering the views
they haveto submit to it, and partly because
of the actual case of cortain railway com-
pames who are now in a position of some
There ia nothing in what I
shall say to the House, or in the plan which
I shall have to propose, which will neces-
sarily interfere with any arrangements
now pending; but it is possible that after
the views of the Government have been
stated upon this subject, and when the
opinion of the House has been taken on
the course that ought to be pursued with
regard to insolvent railway companies,
those views and opinions may have some
bearing on the proceedings of companies
which are now coming before Parliament
with reference to arrangements. It ia
quite unnecessary that I should enlarge
upon the importance to the public of an
inquiry into this question ; but I wish, in
opening the discussion, to find some safe
ground to start from, and some principle I
can take as my guide on the question we
have to consider. The ground I start from
is this— that the matter is one of pub-
Uo interest, and that the principle on
which we ought to proceed in any sug-
gestions we may have to offer for the
solution of the difficulties in which railway
companies find, or may find themselves,
should be that of an adherence to the pub*
lie interest. We must look on railways as
undertakings which have been specially
favoured by Parliament — ^not for the sake
of the persons who undertake to con-
struct them— not for the sake of the
shareholders, the creditors, or any other
class of persons interested in them, but as
undertakings to which Parliament has af-
forded great facilities, because they were
considered to be of importance to the
communication of the country, and for
various public purposes, to which I need
not enter into detail; and therefore Par-
liament has a right to say, '' We wiU take
care that tliese underti^ings which we
have encouraged, and to which we have
granted such facilities, shall really be of
advantage to the public,*' and if we per-
ceive, in the course of the undertaking,
that the circumstances of the company will
not enable it to carry on its undertak-
ings beneficially for the public and con-
sistently with public security, then I think
Parliament has a right to come forward
and say, we will endeavour to remedy
those evils; and whilst we are prepared
to give all due attention and consideration
to the rights of individuals, we have a
right to demand that some arrangement
shall be made for securing the rights
of the public. If we start on this prin-
oiple, then, I think there will be very
little difficulty in applying it to the case
01 Jggiwy Ooti^miieif
[comiom]
Arrmigmmh JBiU.
•S
of a railway oompany in sadh a state
of finaoeial embarraMment as to be unable
to properly oonduet its bnsinesa. This is
a matter which affects not only the pnblio
oonyenienoe but the public safety; and to
these ends it is essential that railways
should be in the hands of companies pos-
sessed of sufficient funds to carry them on
in a proper way, to supply the proper and
necessary appliances for working, to keep
the permanent way in proper and sub-
stanual repair, and provide those train
services and other mcilities which the
public have a right to expect. When,
however^ we find that a railway oompany
is in a position of insolvency, and is un-
able to meet its engagements, Parliament
is entitled to say, on behalf of the public,
that this company ought, in some way or
another, to give up the task which it is
unable to accomplish to other hands who
are able to so. When I use the expression
that such railways should give up the task
to more competent hands, I do not neces-
sarily mean that the existing railway com-
panies should sell their railways to some
stranger or third party, because the object
may be accomplished by such a re-arrange-
ment of their affairs as would render them
just as competent to carry on their under-
takings as any new companies founded on
a sounder basia. All I now contend for is
t^at it is our daty to see, if a railway
4K)mpany cannot satisikctorily work its
railway, that some provision should be
made for placing it in the hands of those
who can. Having got so far as that in
the consideration of the matter which I
am endeavouring to lay before the House,
I find that I am met with difficulties on
Hit side of the law. Aa the law stands it
is not possible— at all events, in the case
of unwilling companies — to force anything
on them in the nature of an act of bank-
ruptcy, and it is not possible to compel
them to place their aflBeuirs in the hands of
those who are able and willing to work
.the lines for them. Bailways are ex-
pressly and deliberately excepted from the
law applicable to all other companies,
under which other companies may be
made bankrupt when unable to meet their
engagements; and although railway com-
panies who choose to register under the
provisions of the Joint Stock Companies
Act may be wound up under that Act,
even in that case it would be of necessity
an imperfect proceeding, for there is no
authority which would have power to sell
the railway or to make any arrangement
as is made in the case of other under*
takings, or to transfer it to other hands.
For that purpose it is necessary that the
railway company should come to Parlia-
ment l^ow, if that is the state of the
law, we must look at it not only aa a
matter of fact, but we must look on it as
being an incident of the policy on whioli.
the law is founded. It is not a mere
omission on the part of the Legislature
to put them on the same footing as other
companies ; railway companies are ex-
pressly and deliberately excepted by the
Legislature on the ground that their an-
dertakings, being of a public character,
are on a different footing as regards the
public from private undertakings, which
are carried on for the benefit of the indi-
viduals who carry them on. If a company,
for instance, carrying on a cotton-mill,
should be found unable to carry on its
affairs satisfiictorily, it may be made bank-
rupt, and the mill sold ; but whether the
concern be carried on, or the mill pulled
down, is of no direct or immediate interest
to the public. But in the case of a rail-
way company the public have a great
interest m what becomes of the line;
in fact, they have more interest in what
becomes of the line than in what becomes
of the company. Parliament, therefore,
may fairly say to such a company, ** When
we gave you the power to make this line,
we did not at the same time empower you
to transfer it to whom you pleased ; we
allowed you to work, but not to sell it ;
and if your affairs go wrong and you are
obliged to sell, we must have a voice in.
the disposal of the line." When we con-
sider tne public importance of railways,
the means they afford of communication
throughout the country, and the relation
which one railway system bears to another,
the question who is to work a railway, in
whose possession it is to be, and upon
what conditions it shall work — all these
are points of public policy, not merely of
private interest. The case, therefore, stands
thus : — ^Although it is of importance that
an insolvent railway company shoul^bo
relieved from duties which it is not able
to perform, and that provision should be
made for the better performance of those
duties, the existing law supplies no means
of accomplishing such an object without,
first of all, the consent of the company,
and its registration and winding-up under
the Joint Stock Companies Act ; and, in
the next place, a private Act of Parliament
permittinjf the sale of the railwav« Thc|t
08 BaOidu^ Oompmieit (Fb&waey 7, 1867) JUtmgimmk SiBL 94
being the ease, we haye to consider in
wliat way we are do deal with those com-
panies which may nnfbrtanately bring
tiiemselTes into tms position. The first
suggestion might be that yoa should in-
tr^uce into your legislation pioyisions for
enabling such companies to be wound up
adTcrsely in the Court of Chancery. But,
if you do that, it will be necessary to
adopt provisions directing the mode in
which tile railway is to be disposed of,
uid also provisions to meet the other
droumstances of the case. This must
be either by some general Act appli-
cable to every case, or the provisions
may be settled by some other authority
than that of Parliament. The most ob-
vious that suggests itself is the Court
of Chancery, and that that Court, or
any other Court in which the company
may be wound up, should have the
power to prepare a scheme for the dis-
posal of the railway and the property of
the company. But if you were to give
the Court cif Chancery this power there
is no doubt that Parliament would insist
that the scheme should not be adopted and
carried into effect upon the sole authority
of the Court of Chancery, but should be
brought before the House for its approval
or disapproval of the proposed scheme.
It is out of the question to suppose that
Parliament will place in the Court of
Chancery, or any other Court, the power
of makinga final arrangement of sudi a
matter. With every respect for the Court
^f Chancery, I do not think the Court is
eompetcnt to execute such functions. No
doubt that Court, when it came to pre-
pare a sdieme, would contrive in some
way to do that which it considered best
for all parties interested in the railway,
and as between shareholders and debentuiis-
holdeis and other creditors, would be able
to prepare as just and equitable a scheme
as could be devised ; but when it became
necessary to introduce provisions for the
interests of the public, then, I thmk, a
Court of Law would not be the best instru-
ment for framing such a scheme. Again,
the idea of introducing into a general Act
of Parliament all the clauses and provisions
necessary to meet the case of nulways in
embarrassed circumstances is out of the
question* The provisions contained in any
such Act must be extremely daborato to
meet eveiy possible variety of case that
can be oonceivedy and must be accom-
panied with guards and checks of every
4N>siQdf»ble description, and upon every
one of those proviu<ms questions would
arise which would lead to doubts, disputes,
and differences. I hardly think it possible
that such a Bill could be carried through
Parliament; and even if it were, I think
it is almost certain that when it came
to be worked, many cases would be found
to have been omitted, and new cases
would constantly arise for which no pro-
vision had been, or could possibly have
been, made. We must therefore dismiss
the idea either of dealing with tibie matter
through the Court of Chancery, or of em-
bodying provisions in a general Act of
Parliament which should be satisfactory.
Various suggestions have been made at
different times, and there is one class of
suggestions to which I think I must refer,
because great prominence has beon given
to it It has been said by certain persons
intorestedi and by some of very great
authority, that the matter ought really
to be dealt with with reference espe-
cially, if not ezdusivelv, to the rights
and claims of the debenture-holders ;
thaty in point of fiict, they ought to be re-
garded as the mortgagees of the line, and
that when a railway company is unable to
pay the interest on its debenture debt, or
to meet the claim of its debenture*holders
for principal and interest, that they ought
to have the right to foredese, as it were,
and take the line into their own hands.
Now, looking to the public interest, I
do not think any such arrangement can
be sanctioned. The question of whether
debenture-holders do or do not possess
the righte of mortgagees over a railway
is a question which has been more or
less debated, and was up to a certain
time doubtful ; but the recent dedsion of
Lord Justice Cairns, about ten days ago,
has determined that debenture-hdders are
not in the pontion of mortgagees, that
they have no power to take precedence of
other creditors or to foredose upon the
land and take the whole concern. There-
fore, I do not think that the dum of the
debenture>holders has been esteblished to
such a point as to render it incumbent on
Parliament, in making arrangemente for
the affairs of embarrassed companies, to
treat theirs as the one great interest to be
considered to the exclusion of all others,
and to give them, as a matter of right,
at whatever cost of public convenience,
the management of concerns of such mag-
nitude. We are not to look upon the
question as a case in which the deben-
ture-holders }|i|ve a ri^ht to sei^e tlie line
i5 Smhmiijf CmpouM
(OOHHONS)
Arrm^$wimh BiU.
06
irbeii it does not pty ; but we axe free to
look upon it from the pablio point of
yiewy and eomdder what arrangements
will 'be meet expedient for the pablio
interest. We musty in the first instanQe*
regard these oonoems, whioh have been
sanotioned by Parliament for publio pur-
poses, as a whole, and look to the pablio
interest first ; and then we must endea-
Tour to deal with the different elasses en-
gaged in the undertaking, in one shape
or another, with reference to the rights of
those parties. Those rights are so impor-
tant that it is desirable that they should
be asoertained by proper tribunals ; and in
any arrangement we make we should give
due weight to them. But looking at this
as a matter of public interest, when we
see a ooQcem whioh cannot be carried on as
we expected it should be when we sano-
tioned it, we have a right to see how the
management of the Une can be so re-
arranged that the undertaking can be car-
ried on in a proper manner. Now, one
can hardly oonoeiTe a more unsatisfactory
way of carrying on a line than by putting
it into the Imods of a body of debenture-
holders. They confessedly are a class who
are not qualified for the management of
commercial transactions. I do not speak
of every debenture-holder, but of the
body. They *e a class of men, and not
unf^uently women, who do not desire to
undertake the responsibility of the manage-
ment of a great undertaking, who will not
be well qualified to elect Directors, or to
keep them in check by attending meet-
ings ; but who, having money to in-
vest, desire to lend it on what they be-
lieve to be good security. Now if you
suddenly throw on a Glass of persons like
this the management of the raUway which
others much better qualified had been un-
able to manage sucoessfblly, yon are more
likely to odd to the inefficiency of the con-
duct of the Une than to restore it to effi-
ciency. I therefore set aside aU question
of allowing the debenture-hoMers to take
the management themselves. Then there
is another proposal. Supposing ttie case
that the debenture-holders are allowed to
a in and take the management and con-
it is thought b V some that they should
not be allowed to uo so uncontroued, but
that the Government should assist them
in the management Two proposals have
been made with regard to the action of the
Government in the matter, and I desire to
say a few words upon this point, because
rumours, as if from authontyi have got
Sir SUffird HfurOmU
afloat pointing to courses which the Oo-
yemment would never think of foUowing.
One of these suggestions is Uiat the Go-
vernment should come forward, leaving all
other matters exactly as they are, and
take the debentures of involved railwa3r8
on itself, that it should undertake to pay
off the debenture-holders and beoome cre-
ditors of the companies in their place.
As to such a proposal, or anything in that
nature, I venture to say it is one that Par-
liament could not contemplate for a mo-
ment. I do not elaborate this point as it
has been elaborated in the publio press
and elsewhere; but it seems to me that the
result of all such propositions is that the
Government is to constitute itself into a
great Finance Company, to undertake on
the strength of its credit to come forward
and help those whose credit is not so good
as their own ; and it is said that the Go-
vernment being able probably to borrow
at the rate of 3} per cent for the purpose
of lending at 5 or 6 per cent, might real-
ize a large profit. Against all such pro-
posals I venture to enter my protest I
am satisfied that it would be an unwise
and improvident thing on the part of the
State to lend itself to any operation of
that kind. We have got enough to do
with the management of our own Debt,
without undertaking to add lai^y to it
by paying off the debts of other persons
with a view to reap the benefit of such
profit as may be represented by the
difference of the credit of the rulway
companies and that of the State. A pro-
posid a little less objectionable would be
for the Government to take all the deben-
tures of all the companies, and not only
those of the bad ones. This would be
rather better than that it should take up
the bad bargains only. But I tiiink this
also is out of the question. Then there is
a proposal of a much larger character-
that tne Government should not only un-
dertake the debenture debt, but also take
the railways themselves; and for this
undoubtedly there is more to be said—
because, to take the debenture debt with-
out the railways would be to take an
obligation on ourselves without taking
power to interfere with the management
of the railways, and we should so run
great risks without the power of protect-
ing ourselves ; but to take tiie railways
themselves would be a different matter,
beoanse we should have the oontrol, and
might be able to oonduot them with
profit. But this is not the moment to
07 Sinkffas ComptmiM (Fsbhttaet 7, 1867 J Arrang$mmh BtV. ^98
eonrider thai qnestioii — it is before the
Boyal Commifision on Eailwajs, and what-
ever their Beport may be — of which I
am quite ignorant — ^it will receive dne
attention. I must however say, that if
it should point to any such conclusion as
that we should take the ' railways, that
matter would require the most serious and
careful consideration before it could be
even entertained. I do not say for a
moment it should be entertained; but
I wish to distinguish it from the mere
taking the debentures, which would cer-
tainly be most objectionable. Setting
this aside, and setting aside any pro-
posal in the nature of working a line
by Government interference, I ask, how
are we to deal with the difficulty we have
to meet? I have endeavoured to show,
in the first place, that in the interest of
the public, some means should be found of
transferring railways from insolvent to
solvent management ; that this cannot be
done solely by the intervention of the
Court of Chancery; that the necessary
provisions cannot be made by any genertd
Act of Parliament ; and I have indicated
that it is not desirable for tho State to take
•the railways or their debts on itself. I have
also endeavoured to show that Parliament
would not be disposed to allow the ar-
rangements of our railway companies to
go entirely out of its control. Therefore,
as provision cannot be made by a general
Act. there must be a special Act of Par-
liament in each individual case, framed
according to the circumstances. Hon.
Members will perhaps say that the end
of all this long statement is» that things
are to go on as they are — that at present
Private Bills are to be introduced to meet
each case as it arises. That is not exactly
our proposal. The difficulty of proceeding
by Private Bills on the present footing is
that a Private Bill can only be promoted,
or only is promoted, by the company itself;
and were is no means of compelling a
company that is unwilling to do so to wind
up its affairs. Moreover, in the case of Pri-
vate Bills only certain persons have such an
interest as gives them a loom standi before
the Committee, and the interest which the
general public has, although very great,
would hardly entitle it to be represented.
Then in Private Bill legislation we have
much uncertainty ' to deal with, because
the decisions of the Committees in one
Sessioo are often overruled by those who
succeed them in the next, and there
is the possibility of flie rules laid down
by one House of Parliament being dis-
regarded by the other. All these diffi-
culties have induced Her Majesty's Go-
vernment to try if we cannot find a
better mode of dealing with these ques-
tions. I think there may be. I think that
by calling in the aid of the Executive
Government for certain purposes you may
provide a better mode of meeting these
cases. We propose, then, that the Executive
Government — through that Department of
it which is more particularly concerned,
the Board of Trade — should, in the first
instance, prepare the schemes which shall
be laid before Parliament in the form of
Bills, and should take charge of them as
Public Bills, and carry them through Par-
liament. The proposal is that when a
company is in a state of financial embar-
rassment, when it is unable to pay the
interest or principal of its debentures,
when there is an execution issued against
it and thjsre are no funds to satisfy the de-
mands of its creditors, or when the traffic
is suspended and it is not able to carry on
its business — contingencira which are fully
set forth in the BUI — it shall be lawful
for a certain number of the creditors or
shareholders of the company to present
a petition to the Board of Trade praying
that the Board will order an investigation
into the circumstances of the company.
On that a communication will be made to
the Directors of the company, and a certain
limited time allowed them in which to
offer objections to that course of proceed-
ing; after which the Board of Trade, if
satisfied that there is a primdfaeie case for
inquiry, will appoint one or more inspectors.
These are to be persons competent from
their financial and legal ability to investi-
gate the whole position of the company,
and will be armed with the power to cidl
witnesses and collect evidence, so as to
effect a complete and satisfactory investi-
gation. They will then prepare a scheme
for the settlement of tho company's affairs,
for which the Board of Trade will make
itself responsible, and which it will intro-
duce into Parliament. Next comes the
question how the Bill shall be dealt with
by the Legislature ; and it being one great
object of Uie plan to insure as fu: as possi-
ble uniformity of decision and a reduction
of expense, it is proposed that instead of
such a Bill being separately considered by
Committees of each House of Parliament,
it shall be introduced simultaneously into
both Houses, and that after passing a se-
oond reading in each it abaUi m the eveut
^1}
ftd Sailtcay Companieif fCOMIIONS) ArrmqmeniB Bitt. 100
of opposition from interested parties, be
referred to a Joint Coromitteo* appointed
by the two Houses, under Standing Orders
to be framed for that purpose. That Com-
mittee Trill deal with it in the same way
that Private Bills are now dealt with, and
the Bill being introduced by the President
of the Board of Trade, will be carried
through by him upon public grounds —
BO that he will be interested in raising
questions before the Committee which the
promoters or opponents of Private Bills
are not necessarily interested in consider-
ing. A means will thus bo provided for
dealing with each special case upon its own
particular circumstances, through a careful
examination of its merits by persons who,
selected in the first instance for their com-
petency, will, in process of time, acquire
a great deal of experience, and who will
not be hampered by formal rules of evi-
dence from obtaining information in the
freest possible manner. With regard to
the Joint Committee, I venture, though
with some diffidence, to suggest that the
Standing Orders should secure its appoint-
ment upon a very careful footing, and that
the two Houses should be empowered, if
they think fit, to associate with tho Com-
mittee some of the Iteferees to whom Pri-
vate Bills were now referred. This, how-
ever, is a matter of detuil, and is not
essential to the scheme, that which is
essential being a joint inquiry by both
Houses, with a view to avoid expense and
uncertainty. I think Parliament may be
satisfied with this — and, indeed, I am in-
clined to think that it would be a great
improvement on the mode of conducting
Private Business were the principle of Joint
Committees carried still farther. I do not
wish, however, to travel beyond the limits
of the present measure, and therefore only
suggest that course as advisable in the case
with which we now have to deal. In the
event of the inspectors finding that the
requisite an'angrment is within the terms
of an existing Act of Parliament, there is
a clause providing that they may, with the
assent of three-fifths of the shareholders,
debenture- holders, and other persons inte-
rested, prepare a scheme and submit it to
Her Mnjesty for confirmation by an Order
in Council. I have now stated the leading
features of the Bill, which will be in the
hands of hon. Members in a day or two,
and I trust that at no distant period it
may be considered by the House, tho Com-
mittee upon it being deferred, if thought
desirable^ for a longer time than usual, in i
Sir Stafford NorihfiUe '
order that the details of the scheme may
be fiilly examined. I hope that the pro*
posal will be found to obviate some of the
difficulties now experienced owing to the
present state of tlie law, which renders
companies, practically insolvent, unable to
come to any arrangement, and drives them
to seek reuef in all directions, each class
standing upon its exclusive rights, and tlie
assets being wasted in internal disputes. £
believe that the plan which I have sketched
out will not only provide a simple and
effective method of dealing with these difil-
culties as they arise, but will, to some
extent, prevent their occurrence, because
the knowledge that the intervention of the
Board of Trade may be invoked will act
as a check upon Directors, and also as an.
encouragement to shareholders to take an
interest in the arrangement. Vexatious
and frequent appeals are, of oonrse, to bo
deprecated. This is the proposal of Her
Majesty's Government, which I now ask
leave to present in the shape of a Bill.
Moved f " That leave be given to bring
in a Bill to make better provision for the
arrangement of the affairs of Bailway
Companies unable to meet their engage-
ments."—(iSVr Stafford JfbrtheoU.)
Kb. WATKIN said, he did not intend
to oppose the introduction of the measure,
but he should have desired to have the
Bill before them, because it was very
difficult to judge of its operation by the
essay they had just heard from the right
hon. Baronet. He submitted, however,
that though there was a case for legisla-
tion of some kind, the right hon. Baronet
had not made out a case for the introduo-
tion of the measure which he proposed.
The right hon. Gentleman had stuted that
Parliament ought not to interfere with the
concerns of these joint-stock companies
except in the interest of the public, and
that interest, his argument led them to
infer, consisted in the facility and safety of
locomotion; but he had not adduced a
single case in which even the unsound
companies had failed to carry on the traffic.
He therefore ventured to think that the
matter might be left to the ordinary
common sense and self-interest of the
persons interested in these concerns, and
that there was no need of the interven-
tion of Parliament by general measures.
The cases were exceptional, and called
for exceptional legislation, each case upon
its own merits. General legislation was
not needed, and to propose it would
101 Saikoay CompanM (Fbb£ttabt 7^ 1867) JrrangmenU Bill. 102
create doubt and distnut, and needlessly
damage the credit of sound companies
trhich, under general measures, would be
classed with the unsound. The right hon.
Baronet promised, at the close of last
Session, to lay before the House an ex-
planation of the financial collapse of last
spring. Now, it was admitted that one
cause of the suffering then experienced
was the sanction given by Parliament
during the last three or four years to vari-
ous wasteful schemes for the expenditure
of the national capital. Those unsound
undertakings, it should be remembered,
had been authorized by Parliament ; and
though, no doubt, it was not the pro-
vince of the Legislature to prevent people
from throwing away their money — ^thongh,
no doubt, a man was at liberty to pull
down his house and make it a heap of rub-
bish, or, provided he did not insure it, to
.scuttle his ship — Parliament surely ought
not to facilitate such operations. The
expenditure of a laige amount of labour,
and the consequent wasting of the national
resources in unremunerative schemes, was
a loss to the nation, though the capital
belonged in the separate sense to indivi-
duals. £450,000,000 had been invested
in railways in the XTnif ed Kingdom ; but
the total amoant of capital invested in
these unsound undertakings — the first
being in the South of Ireland, next some
in Wales, and lastly the London, Chatham,
and Dover — did not comprise more than a
tithe of that total. By these failures
the public had not been so far damaged ;
and he (Mr. Watkin) Eaid that Parliament
should leave to the promoters of the un-
dertakings themselves to present schemes
for managing their own offairs, in their
own way, according to the dictates of
their own common sense. He (Mr. Wat-
kin) feared that if this Bill were carried
it would be the beginning of a departure
from the useful principle that the persons
who went into these undertakings ought
to be allowed to manage their own affairs.
It would probably be found that the ina-
nagcment of tho Board of Trade would
not be so good as that of the worst ma-
naged of ^ese railways. He feared that
the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman would
only create a false security in the creditors
and debenture-holders. Instead of each
man inquiring for and relying upon him-
self, he would be looking on the Board of
Trade as an emblem of safety, and relying
on it as a surety against loss. The pith
of th^ whole ^uestioi was to be found in
this — what was at the moment required
was not the interference of the Board
of Trade, but merely a short provision
in a general Act of Parliament for the
inviolability and perfect security of rail-
way debentures— the keystone of that
railway system which, with all its short-
comings, had done so much for the well-
being and prosperity of the country. What
was the present position of the question ?
The right hon. Gentleman said that a re-
cent legal decision had rendered it doubtful
whether a debenture was a mortgage,
whether a debenture-holder had a right
to sell ; and then the right hon. Gentleman
enunciated a most dangerous principle in
stating that the railway mortgogee ought
not to be allowed to sell the security on
which his money had been advanced.
Such a principle would sap the foundation
of the whole mortgage property of the
country, and the feeling of doubt and in-
security created would raise the rate of
interest upon all mortgages. There never
was a more dangerous principle laid down
by a Minister in this country than to say
that the mortgagee should not be able to
sell the security on which his money had
been obtained in his mortgage. In Transat-
lantic countries the railway debenture was
a mortgage, not on the tolls only, but on
the engines, plant, and the whole property
of the undertaking. What was wanted
was to make a railway debenture really a
mortgoge. If that were done, he believed
there would be found in the most rotten
of these concerns a core of soundness which
would pull the enterprize at last through
in the interest of the public. A very short,
simple measure to make the debenture
inviolable would be safe and useful. The
Bill of the Government would be useless
and mischievous.
Mb. MILNBR GIBSON said, he would
be sorry to give any off-hand opinion on
the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman,
which was somewhat complicated, and
must contain many details which they
could not usefully discuss until they had
the Bill before them. But he had heard
with great pleasure that one part of his
p]!tn was to refer any Railway winding-
up Bill, brought in as proposed under
the auspices of the Board of Trade, to
a Joint Committee of both Houses of
Parliament. They had a Joint Commit-
tee two or three Sessions ago on Metro-
politan Railways, and their experience
on that occasion justified Parliament in
carrying the prinoiple of these Com^
103 SM^a^Cmpam$e (OOMUONS)
AmmgimenU BiU^ 104
xnitieeB still farther. The double inquiry
had been a source of constant com-
plaint, and it had been felt that the evi-
dence on Bailway Bills nught be given
once for both Houses, and that one inquiry
would serve all the purposes of legislation.
The Committee on Private Bill Legislation,
which sat two or three years ago, were
of opinion that this system of Joint Com-
mittees might be adopted generally for all
cases of BaUway and Private Bills. Perhaps
that would be going too far at present;
but, at any rate, he was glad to find that
the right hon. Gentleman proposed to
carry the principle a step further. With
regfu^ to the scheme itself, what struck
his mind most was that the Board of
Trade would be called upon to exercise
most important judicial functions. Under
the proposed scheme creditors might come
forward and petition the Board of Trade
that a certain company should be wound
up. The Board of Trade would of course
hear the parties who objected to the com-
pany being wound up and made bankrupt
That was a most important function to be
committed to a public Department; but it
appeared more difficult still when they
considered that the Board would have to
decide upon the equitable rights of the
debenture-holders, the preference stock
holders, and the ordinary creditors. These
were judicial operations well suited for
the Court of Chancery; but unless per-
formed under very competent and proper
advice, they wore not suited to a Depart-
ment Uke me Board of Trade. He would
not, however, speak unfavourably of any
part of the scheme until he knew more of
It; but he could not sit down wiUiout
saying that he thought the right hon.
Gentleman had undertaken a most useful
task in endeavouring, so &r as he could,
to enable persons to get out of their un-
fortunate difficulties in connection with
railways. He certamly agreed that the
public had a primary interest beyond all
other interests, and it was tiiat of enabling
the railway communications of the coun-
try to be kept open. The public interest
was, in fact, that the traffic in passengers
and goods should be carried on with safety
and punctuality ; but the pubUo had no
direct interest in the question whether
debenture-holders got their fuU interest
or shareholders their dividendsy though
Parliament was bound to provide a mode
by which all claims on a railway company
can be equitably arranged, and, at the same
time, securuig that the railways tbemselTes
should not be liable to be stopped in their
use to the public. Debentures and shares
were matters of speculation on the part
of debenture-holders when they lent their
money, and of shareholders when they
embarked their capital ; but, undoubtedly,
he agreed with the right hon. Gentieman
that the Government and the public had
a direct interest in seeing that railways,
which had become the high roads of the
country, should be kept open, and that
the traffic upon them should be conducted
with safety and regularity.
Sib BOUNDELL palmer said, he
quite agreed with his right hon. Friend
(Mr. Hihier Gibson) that it was premature
to express an opinion on the measure it-
self; but he could not think it premature
to express an opinion with respect to the
principle upon which it was said to be
based. Having a most acute sense of the
extreme importance and urgency of the
question, he had heard the statement of
the President of the Board of Trade with
feelings of the most profound disappoint-
ment. The measure appeared to mm to
be necessarily inadequate to deal with the
real evil, and based upon principles wholly
insufficient to meet the actual difficulties
of the case. It was very true that the
public had an important interest in the
maintenance of these great lines of com-
munication ; but he could not but express
his entire dissent from the view — if it
were the view — of the right hon. Gentle*
man that Parliament had no duty to dia-
chai^e with regard to the private interests,
especially of the creditors, of these great
concerns. [Sir Stafford Kobthoote was
understood to intimate his dissent.] He
did not imagine that the right hon. Gen-
tieman had said so ; but, at all events, the
Bill did not take that broad and general
view of the rights of creditors and the proper
mode of providing for their payment which
seemed to be imperatively required, and
which could not possibly be provided for
by this sort of special piecemeal legisla-
tion through the Board of Trade and both
Houses of Parliament in each particular
case. There should be a general law se-
curing to the creditors of a railway and
all other companies the payment of their
debts to the extent of the means of the
company on settied principles to be ad-
ministered by the Courts of Law. He did
say that the state of things lately disclosed
in that respect was scandalous. He could
not agree with the right hon. Gentieman
that, under tho eating Acts of parliaments
105 BMio0ff Ompanie^ (FsBBtriiiT Y| 1867) AmmgmmU Sitt. 106
railway companies, either by r^fiatering
themselYea or otherwiBe, could be wound
up. This, however, was quite certain—
that judgment creditors might pull to
pieces by private and separate executions
all that was absolutely necessary to enable
the company to go on — because no tolls
could be earned, no profits could be de-
rived, and the public trafiSc could not be
provided for without the rolling stock.
At the present moment, if a company were
insolvent, each individual judgment cre-
ditor, going for his own separate interest,
might pull to pieces the'^plant and rolling
stock of the concern. That was an im-
minent practical danger ; and then what
would happen? In all other cases of
winding-up or bankmptcy, the available
assets were distributed rateably among the
creditors — but no such machinery was ap-
plicable to this particular case ; and with
regard to the unfortunate debentare-hold-
ers, whom Parliament had certainly led to
suppose that they had got security under
Acts of the Legidature, it had been lately
determined — and, no doubt, correctly —
that they had no mortgage on the perma-
nent way or on the rolUng stock ; that
they had no power, and that nobody had
power, to supersede the management of
the company; and that their sole right,
if there were profits, was to get their in-
terest paid out of those profits. But un-
less a railway could be carried on, and
the general interests of the creditors were
provided for by an administration for their
common benefit^ in the special case of in-
solvency which the Bill proposed to deal /
with, it was utterly impossible there could |
be any profits whatever; and the enor-
mous amount of property involved in rail-
way debentures in the kingdom would be
exposed to daily and hourly risk. Let
him suppose that the procedure proposed
by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was
adopted, that a company was in this state,
and that people went to the Board of
Trade to settle a scheme. As his right
hon. Friend (Mr. Milner Gibson) had justly
said, if the Board of Trade was to settle a
scheme for the re-constitution of a company,
BO as to provide for the different rights
of the difierent classes of creditors, ho did
not see how it could possibly do that ex-
cept by, the exercise of judicial functions.
Take the case of the unfortunate com-
pany, the state of whose afiuirs had led to
these questions— -the London, Chatham, and
Dover Company. That Company had, by
their legislation — ^they must never forget
that— been cut up into a great number of
sections, and parcelled out among di£ferent
classes of creditors and persons who had
been induced to lend their money. It
was in utter confusion. Was the Board
of Trade to disentangle that mass of com-
plication and confusion ; or, if not to dis-
entangle it, could it propose new legisla-
tion with due security for the proper
maintenance of the rights of all those
various classes of creditors? It seemed
to him to be totally impossible for the
Board of Trade to do that. Judicial ma-
chinery was absolutely necessary for the
purpose ; and the present judicial machi-
nery was confessedly inadequate to ac-
complish it. He ventured to think, if he
understood the right hon. Baronet's expla-
nation, that his proposal in that respect
would be a most inexpedient one; for,
whatever else might be desirable, they
wanted a Bill that should give to the
Courts of Justice that large and compre*
hensive power of doing justice to all the
creditors of these companies in case of in-
solvency, which the Court of Chancery
and Court of Bankruptcy had in regard to
any other joint-stock company.
Six STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, in re-
ply, said, he had to apologize to the House,
and confess that when he undertook to
bring in this Bill he had some doubts as
to his own power of fully explaining its
nature. He agreed in the remark which
had been made by the hon. and learned
Gentleman the Member for Richmond,
that there were disadvantages in discuss-
ing Bills before they were in the hands
of Members, because the only impression
which the House could possibly derive of
their provisions ifiust be gathered from the
explanation — often a very imperfect one —
of the Member bringing them in, who,
being naturally hampered by his desire not
to ti^paas too long on the time of the
House, sometimes omitted points which
ought to be mentioned. If, however, the
hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Roundell
Palmer) had had the Bill in his hands he
would have seen that it was not quite
open to the objections which, upon the
imperfect stotement he had given of its
provisions, might fairly be taken to it. He
quite admitted thai it would be extremely
difficult for the Board of Trade to exercise
the functions which the Bill proposed to
Test in it. There would, no doubt, be
many judicial questions raised which thei
Board of Trade would not be competent to
settle for itself. But it was intended to
107
Shipping Le^^
(COHHOKS)
DuetJSiU.
1Q8
insert in the measure a clause giTing
power to the inspectors of the Board of
Trade to refer questions of a delicate legal
character to the Courts of Law, to he de-
cided hy an issue which would he properly
tried with regard to the rights of parti-
cular classes of creditors. That was a
point on which he felt himself incompetent
to speak, hecause it was one of a technical
nature ; hut he had drawn the attention
of the gentleman who had charge of the
framing of the Bill to it, and desired him
to prepare a clause, or clauses, to meet
that difficulty, and enahle judicial deci-
sions to he taken in those oases in which
they might be absolutely necessary. He
could not, of course, say whether these
clauses would be satisfactory. He would
only observe that the point was one which
had not been overlooked, and when the
hon. and leained Member had the Bill
before him, it would be seen whether the
clauses were sufficient for the purpose.
The hon. and learned Gentleman had said,
very truly, that what they had to do was
to protect a company against the suspen-
sion of its operations. It was proposed to
introduce a clause into the Bill which
would prevent the seizure of the rolling
stock, or any proceeding that would in-
terfere with the carrying on of the rail-
way. The hon. and learned Gentleman,
having graphically described the state of
confusion which existed in the case of the
London, Chatham, and Dover Eailway
Company, asked whether the Board of
Trade would find its way through all
that labyrinth? Certainly, he was not
going to say that it would be able to do
that or absolutely to settle all those ques-
tions; but it would he a great improve-
ment in the present state of things, when
all these various classes of persons were
fighting together and wasting their time
and money without any mediator or arbi-
trator at all between Uiem — ^it would be
of great advantage if they provided an
arbitrator who might be competent, and
whose decision, if he were not competent,
would not be final, but would hare to
come before Parliament. The hon. Mem-
ber for Stockport (Mr. Watkin) said all
that was wanted was that they should
protect debentures. He did not think that
was all they had to do ; but he would not
enter into that controversy, neither would
he discuss the bearings of that question
.upon the commercial distress of last vear.
He would only ask the House kindly to
allow him to introduce the Bill, and to
8i'r Stafford If ortheaU
suspend its judgment upon its dctailB
until it had seen them.
Motion a^sed to.
Bill to make better proTision for the arrmnM-
ment of tlio afiaira of Railway Companies uuaole
to meet their engagements, ordered to be brought
in by Sir Stafford NoRxnooTi, Mr- Cats, and
Mr. AnoBirsT Gbhsbal.
BiWpreientedj and read the first time. [BUI 4.3
SHIPPING LOCAL DUES BILL.
COMUirrES. BESOLTTTION. first BnADINO.
. Shipping Local Dues eotmdered in Com*
mittee.
(In the Committee.)
Sib STAFFORD NORTHCOTE rose
to propose that —
** The Chairman be directed to moye the Hoase
that leaye be ^ren to bring in a Bill for the Abo-
lition of certain Exemptions from Local Does on
Shipping and on Goods carried in Ships."
It would, he said, he oonyenient that he
should defer, as far as possible, any discus-
sion on the Bill whioh it was sought to
introduce until it was in print; but he
might then briefly state that last year a
law was passed in France, admitting fo*
reign ships to very great advantages,
which they had not heretofore enjoyed
in French ports, but this privilege was
limited to the vessels of those countries
which treated French ships with perfect
reciprocity. The nature of the new Frendi
law was this, that it abolished the tonnage
dues which weighed heavily on ships en-
tering French ports, but retained power
for the Emperor to re-impose them upon
the ships of countries which did not
" grant reciprocity to the French Mercan-
tile Marine." The French Government
had communicated to the British Oovem-
ment its wish that the boiefits of this law
might be shared by British ships; but
stated, that for this purpose it was neces-
sary that tho Britirii Government should
abolish those exemptions from local dues
in respect of British ships which were still
enjoyed by a small number of persons in
our seaports. These exemptions were now
very limited, and of infinitesimal value ;
and it had always been contended on our
side that they were not, strictly speaking,
any breach of reciprocity, inasmuch as the
dues in question were not levied on Frenoh
or foreign ships in particular, but also
on British ships. The French, however,
argued that that was not satisfactory to
them, and that, in point of fact, an Eng-
lishman might gain an exemption fhiqEi
109 n^MiiAthitiktlcn, ^c. iFxnvAiT 7, 1867} Dnk^kn AhUtion Bill 110
fooia of those diie9» whereat a Frenohman
nerer ooald. In that state of the cose, it
Has thought by Her Majesty's Govem-
meat desiraUe to extinguish the reroain-
iog exemptions of that character ; and the
French Government had very liand$om«ly
acoepted Ihe intimation of the Govern-
inent's intention to submit a Bill to Par-
liament; and the Emperor, although ho
had ro-imposcd the restrictions upon Ame-
rican ships, abstiiined from doing so with
rrgard to British ships, until he ascer-
tsHicd whetlier Parliament would pass the
proposed Bill. The Bill provided that
the local exemptions, which are now en-
joyed by Tory few persons, should be abo-
lished within a Ycry limited time, and
that compensation to the persons who en-
joyed them should be made — not, of course,
oat of any Imperial or public funds, but
oat of those funds which would profit
directly by their abolition^ namely, the
fnnds of the harbour or other trusts to
vhich the dues in question were payable.
The right hon. Baronet concluded by
SKiring hia Besolution.
Motion agreed to,
ReBot&ed, That the ChAirman bo directed to
move the Home, that leave be giren to bring in a
BUI for the Abolition of certain Exemptions from
Local Does on Shipping and on Goods canicd in
Ships.
Heaolution reported: — Bill ordered to bo
breogfat in bj Sir Stafford NoETncoTi, Mr.
Gatb, and Mr. IIimT.
BVlpr€9eMedt9jA read the flrtt time. [Bill 5.]
TRANSUBSTANTIATION, Ac. DECLARA-
TION ABOLITION BILL.
COXHITTEE. B£S0LUTI0N. FI£ST SRADI^TO.
Transnbstantiation, &c. Declaration
Abolition eoneidered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Sn COLMAN O'LOGHLEN rose to
** That the Chairman be directed to more the
nevse, that leafe be given to bring in a Bill to
aboiisb a certain Declaration, commonly called the
Beelaration againat Transubstantiation, Invoca-
tiee of Saints, and tbo Sacrifice of the Ma8s as
praetiaed in the Charch of Rome ; and to render
it vnneeesaarj to take, make, or subscribe the
mta» as a i|iialiaeation lor the exercise or en-
jojawnt of anj Ciril Oflke, Franchise, or
Right.'*
The hon. and learned Baronet said, that
this Bill was almost identical with the
one introdnced by him last Session, and
whidi the present Homo Secretary in-
timated his desire to support. The Bill
passed through all its stages in that
House ; but it was, unfortunately, thrown
out in the other Honse in the month
of July, ns the noblo Lord at the head
of the Governniciit objecled to pro-
ceeding with it nt the lato period of
the Session nt which it cumo before tho
House, e.«pcciully as it was expected that
tho Koyal Com mission oppointed on tho
general subject would sliortly mulu* their
Hcport, when a more comprehensive mea-
sure might be introduced this Session. Ho
believed, however, that the Ueport Imd
not yet appeared; and ho was ccitainly
unwilling that a Declaration, which was
80 objectionable to a vast number of his
fellow-countrymen, should remain on tho
statute book, and he therefore now moved
for leave to introduce the Bill. An addi-
tional reason for introducing it at this
time was to be found in the reply which
the right hon. Gentleman tlie Secretary of
State for the Home Department had given
to the hou. Member for Sheffield, intimat-
ing that the Government had no intention
of introducing a Bill on tho subject of
Oaths this Session.
Resolution moved^ That tho Olmirmnn bo di-
rector to move tho House, that Icare bo given to
I bring in a Bill to abulisii a certain Deciarntiosi,
' commonly called the Declaration against Tran-
substantiation, Invocation of Saints, and tho sa-
crifice of tbo Mass as practised in tho Church of
Rome ; and to render it unnecessary to take,
make, or subscribe the same as a qualification for
the exerciso or enjoyment of any Civil Cfflce,
Franchise, or Right.— (5ir Colman 0 Loghlen.)
Mk. WALPOLE said, that tho hon.
and learned Baronet was perfectly right
in stating that when he moved his Bill of
last Scssiou he offered to giro him his
humble support in passing it; for he had
no hesitation in saying thnt| in his opi-
nion, declarations with regard to solemn
ceremonies of religion ought not to bo
made the test upon which offices should
be allowed to be accepted or not. Ho
was not^)rcpared to retract a single word
DOW that tho further prosccutiou of the
measure was proposed. With reference
to the intentions of the Government,
what ho had stated, in answer to a
question put by the hon. Member for
Sheffield, was that the Commissioners ap-
pointed to inquire into the subject hud
not yet made tlieir Report, and that until
they had done so tho Government oould
make no declaration as to what it would
do on the subject. It was certainly not
tho intention of the Government to cou-
tinue the unnecessary number of oaths
now ou the statute book, but they desired
f I
{coicvoirs)
lU Offlcei and Oathi
to wait for the Eeport of the Commusioners
before they proposed any definite legisla-
tive measure on the Bubject.
Ms. NEWDEOATE was understooNcl to
express his regret at the intimation given
by the Government that they were not
prepared to offer any opposition to the
BiU.
Mb. HADFIELD said, he should be
glad to learn whether the Report of the
Commissioners would be soon in the hands
of Members of the House. He hoped that
after it had been presented prompt action
would be taken by the Gbvernment in re-
lieving persons who had felt scruples of a
religious or moral nature against taking
oaths and declarations. He would be
glad to know when the Beport would be
ready?
Mb. WALPOLE said, he and his noble
Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs (Lord Stanley) were Members of
the Oaths Commission; but upon taking
Office in the Government they resigned,
as they found they would not have time
to attend to the duties of the Commis-
sion. Under these circumstancesi he could
not positively answer the question of
the hon. Member as to when the Beport
would be presented, but he would cause
inquiries to be made. He might say
that before Christmas the Commissioners
had made great progress, and he fully ex-
pected that the Beport would be drawn
up at no very distant period.
Motion agreed to.
Resolved, That the Chairmaii be directed to
move the House, that leaye be given to bring in a
BUI to abolish a oertain Deolaration, commonly
called the Declaration ogainst IVansubstantiation,
Invocation of Saints, and the Sacrifice of the
Mass as practised in the Church of Rome ; and
to render it unnecessary to take, make, or sub-
scribe the same as a qualification for the exercise
or eigoyment of any Civil 0£Bce, Franchise, or
Right.
Rflfloltttion reported : — Bill ordered to be
brought in by Sir Colmah O'Loobun, Mr. Cogav,
and Sir John Gbat.
BiU presented, and read the first time. [Bill 6.]
OFFICES AND OATHS BILL.
OOmCITTEB. BESOLUnOK. FIB8I BBADIKG.
Offices and Oaths amitdered in Com-
mittee.
(In the Committee.)
Snt COLMAIT O'LOOHLEN rose to
move—
'* That the Chairman be directed to move the
House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to
Mr. Ifalpoh
BtU^CommiUdi,
i^move oertain Religious Disabilitiei aUseilo^
some of Her Miyesty'a Subjects, and to stmenH.
the Law relating to Oaths of Office."
The hon. and learned Baronet said he
did not wish to raise any discussion apon.
this occasion, as he thought it would.
be better to discuss the provisions of the
Bill upon the second reading. The Bill
which he now asked leave to introdnoe
was one which he feared would not meet
witii the same general support as the last,
and no doubt the hon. Member for North
Warwickshire, and other hon. Members of
the same opinions, would offer to it all the
opposition in their power ; but he never-
theless trusted to show to the House that
it ought to be carried. When he intro-
duced in the last Session his Bill for the
abolition of the Declaration regarding
Transubstantiation, he said that he had do
intention to alter the existing law as to
the qualifications for holding certain offioes
under Government, because he did not
consider that such an attempt should be
made indirectly or by a side-wind, but
openly, so that the House might have a
full knowledge of the object proposed.
Accordingly he now asked for leave to in-
troduce thu Bill, the object of which was
to remove certain religious disabilities aud
open to Boman Catiholies oertain offioes
now closed to them. He would remind
the House that there were oertain offioes
in Ireland which Roman Catholics could
not hold in consequence of the enactments
in the Emancipation Act of 1829, and
amongst them were those of Lord lieu-
tenant and Lord Chancellor. The first
clause of the Bill would enable Roman
Catholics to hold the office of Lord Chan-
cellor and the office of Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland. In 1859 a BiU was introduced
into this House by Lord Athlumney (then
Sir William Somervillo) and Mr. Herbert^
to enable the Lord Chancellorship of Ireland
to be held by Boman Catholics, and that
Bill was supported by Lord Palmerston^
Sir Geoi^ Lewis, Mr. Cardwell, and other
eminent Members of the House. Bat in
consequence of the late period at which
the Bill was introduced the oppoaitiott
that was offered to it proved suocesBful,
and it was withdrawn. The Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland, unlike the Lord Chan-
cellor of England, had no ecclesiastical
patronage ; in fact, he was no moie than
the highest equity Judge in that country,
and there could be no reason why a Roman
CathoUo should not hold the office. The
other office he proposed to open was that
Ifd Oflmani Oaiii |Febbvabt 1, 1867)
Bdl^Oommiitee.
114
of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland ; nor
oonld he underetand why the Emanoipa-
tion Act excluded Roman Catholics from
it. A Roman Catholic might he the Chief
Secretary for Ireland; he might he the
Prime Minister of England ; he might fill
any of the Chief Secretaryships of State ;
hut he was not allowed to he Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland. It might be said that
as the Lord lieutenant represented Her
Majesty — the representative of the Pro-
testant Crown — ^he must he a Protestant ;
hut it should be remembered that the
GoTemor General of Canada, of India,
or of any Australian colony, or of any
other dependency of the Crown, might
he a Roman CathoUo. It was difficult,
therefore, to argue with any consistency
that a Roman Catholic was disqualified
from properly representing Her Majesty
in Ireland. It was true that the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland enjoyed a good
deal of ecclesiastical patronage; hut in
the event of the office being filled by a
Roman Catholic, that patronage could be
dispensed by some other person ; just as,
he presumed, that if the Prime lUnister of
England were of the Roman Catholic per-
suasion he would not interfere with the
filling up of vacancies in the episcopal
bench. The Secretary of State for the
Home Department enjoyed lai^e ecclesi-
astical patronage in Scotland, yet a Roman
Catholic could fill the office, though in
such a case he would not dispense this
particular branch of the patronage attach-
ing to his office. All that he sought by
the Bill was to place all the subjects of
Her Majesty on perfect religious equality.
He did not desire to provide that the Lord
Lieutenant or the Lord Chancellor of Ire-
land should bo a Roman Catholic, but only
that he might be, if an occasion should
arise when it appeared convenient, to give
the appointment to a gentleman or noble-
man of that persuasion. The next clause
of the Bill had for its object to repeal
what he must consider as a most miserable
dause in the Emancipation Act of 1829 —
namely, the clause that prevented mayors
and other corporate officers who might bo
Roman Catholics from attending Divine
worship in their robes of office, and
Judges who might be Roman Catiiolics
from attending Divine worship in their
official robes. This enactment was natu-
rally the occasion of ill-feeling in Ireland.
It was, in fact, sa3^g that the mayor of a
town might be a Roman Catholic, but his
robe and chain of office must be Protes-
tant ; or a Judge might believe in tran-
substantiatton, but his wig and his gown
must agree in the orthodoxy of the TUrty-
nine Articles. The time had come when
they should put an end to these miserable
remnants of the past. When a Protestant
mayor was elected for Dublin he went in
state to Christ^s Church; but when a
Roman Catholic was elected, he could not
go in state to his place of worship. The
third and last provision of the Bill related
to the abolition of certain oaths. The
House was aware that last Session the
Catholic oath question was finally settled,
and a uniform oath was adopted, which
every Member of Parliament must take in
future when he took his seat. But the
only persons relieved fh>m what the Legis-
lature proclaimed last Session to be an
offensive oath were Members of Parlia-
ment; and the old oath had still to be
taken by members of corporations, magis-
trates, professional men, and others in Ire-
land. What he desired by the third clause
was to provide that the oath adopted last
Session by the House should be the only
one to be used for the future in all cases.
These were the simple provisions of the
Bill, and he would repeat that he did not
wish to raise any discussion upon them at
present. He trusted that when the House
came to consider the Bill they would see
that he asked nothing which was not per-
fectly reasonable and just.
Resolution moved, Thai the Chairman be di-
rected to moTe the Ilouse, that leave be given to
bring in a Bill to remoTe certain Relisioas Disa-
bilities affecting some of Her Majestjrs subiects,
and to amend the Law relating to Oaths of Oflkse.
^(Sir Colman O^LogUen.)
Mb. NEWDEGA.TE said, he thought
that this second BiU very clearly explained
the object of the last Bill which the hon.
Member had introduced. The Bill for
the Abolition of the Declaration regard-
ing Transubstantiation passed that House
last Session on the ground that the de-
claration was simply offensive to Eo-
man Catholics, though he, Mr. White-
side, and some oth^ hon. Members had
endeavoured to impress upon the Houses
that it was merely a disguise for a poli-
tical object. The other House was, he
believed, of that opinion, and rejected the
Bill. The proposal before the House was
that any office in Ireland might be filled
by a Eoman Catholic. Though ours was a
Protestant monarchy, yet it was proposed
that the office of Lord Lieutenant in Ire-
land— which represented the Queen—
I
115
Cjjflmtmi Oaihi
fCOHHONS)
SiU^CommiUst.
IM
might be filled by a Roman Catholic. He
would remind the Goyemment that the
Protestant subjeote of this country attached
great importance to the fact that the Crown
stood limited to Protestants. That was
settled at the Bevolution, and was con-
sidered by their ancestors, and had ever
since been considered, to be one of the
safeguards of the country. Their experi-
ence taught them that that limitation had
proved salutary and wise, and the wisdom
of this limitation was exhibited in the
increasing prosperity of the country. The
hon. and learned Baronet said the depcn*
dencies of this country might be presided
over by Eoman Catholics as Governors.
He (Mr. Newdegate) believed that there
had been instances of that kind ; but did
the hon. Member mean to say that Ireland
was a dependency ? He (Mr. Newdegnte)
thought Ireland was part of the United
Kingdom. The hon. and learned Baronet
.seemed to think that the liberality of the
House ought to have no bounds, for year
after year these demands were increased.
He did not desire on that occasion to enter
at large into the question ; but he trusted
that the Government would remember that
they had been hitherto supported by the
Church of England and the Protestant opi-
nion of the country, and if they desired
hereafter to have that support, they
must, at all events, be ready to guard
the Protestantism of the Crown, and be
ready to secure that Her Majesty should
not in the United Kingdom be directly
represented by a Boman Catholic. He
was willing to grant to his Boroau Catholic
fellow'Subjects everything that could be
granted consistently with what experience
had shown to be necessary for the mainte-
nance of the freedom of their own religion
as well as of ours. The House would do
well to consider how this proposal would
be looked upon by foreigners who have
more experience of Ultramontane tactics
.than we have in England. Count Mont-
alembert, in writing the Political Future of
England^ urged the Boman Catholics of this
country and their priesthood to claim, upon
the ground of religious equality, admission
to every office, and in making this recom-
mendation, ho added, " that under a free
Government more than under any other
form of Government, if you urge this
plea and persevere in it, nothing can re-
sist your power." If the Boman Catholic
religion were dissevered from the political
system, with which it was connected, the
objections which he entertained would not
Mr. Nmiegat9
possess one-half tfaor fime. Bat fha ex-
perience of the whole of Europe at the
present day showed that the Papacy wss
the centre and instrument of a powerful
political prepagandism, which in too many
countries had proved itself revolutionary^
and it was but the other day that extracts
wore published in this country from a
most important document — he referred to
the despatch of Prince Gortschakoff ex-
plaining the grounds of the abandonment
of the Concordat between the Imperial
Government and the Holy See — the Con-
cordat of 1847 ; and connected widi that
despatch documents showing that, so far
as was consistent with the safety of the
State, the Kussian Government had on
several marked occasions made all possible
concessions to the Boman Catholics, and
had granted them complete security for
their religious institutions and property*
The result of these concessions had been
witnessed in several insurrections, and at
lost a most bloody civil war in Poland,
directly sanctioned by the Papacy. It was
his intention to ask the noble Lord at the
head of the Foreign Department to lay
that important document upon the table
of the House, for he (Mr. Newdegate)
had long noticed a parallel between the
policy of the Papacy in Ireland and the
policy of the Papacy in Poland, which
could not be mistaken. The effect, how-
ever, of that policy in Ireland had been
less violent, owing to the wiser govern-
ment of Ireland by England. But still
there was an analogy between tho position
of tho people of Ireland and the position
of the people of Poland, inasmuch as they
were of the Boman Catholic religion to a
great extent, and when it was proposed to
sweep away the last vestige in Ireland of
the fact that the Sovereignty of England
was Protestant, it was high time that the
House should look abroad; should not
regard the subject in a narrow spirit;
should not be deluded into the belief that
we were merely making ooncessions to
religions scruples when it was evident that
these concessions would encourage a deep
and wide-spread conspiracy.
Captain HEBBEBT supported the Mo-
tion. He thought it quite time that all
such invidious distinctions founded on re-
ligious differences should cease. He drew
attention to the fact that no Irishman or
Papist was allowed to enter the Guards.
How could they, when there was such a
talk about friendship for the Irish people,
maintain such exclusions? Why should
117 QfimmuKkOi (FEBBtrABT y, 1867J SiH^OmmUUe. 11«
not Irishmen be in the Gnards? Or,
raUier, why should not Ireland have a
r^ment of Guards as well as Scotland ?
He thanked his hon. Friend for haring
introduced this subject.
Ms. EADFIELD remarked that the
comments of the hon. Member for North
Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate), were
based on the Church Establishment; but
it was evident that there was at tlie pre-
sent time a yery uneasy feeling in the
public mind relative to what was going
on in the Church Establishment. Had the
hon. Gentleman ever considered what had
been stated, though not in his place in the
House of Lords, by the Earl of Shaftes-
bury; had he reflected on the apathy
shown by a Protestant Chancellor and
thirty Bishops in the Douse of Lords with
regard to this question ? The fact was
that they merely stood by and did nothing,
leaving it to take its chance. He believ^
that there existed amongst all classes a
cordial attachment to the Throne of this
country, and was surprised at the course
so often taken by the hon. Member for
Korth Warwickshire. That hon. Gentle-
man had for eight years fought a Bill
which merely proposed to remove a decla-
ration which the Leader of the Conserva-
tive* party declared to be not worth the
paper on which it was printed so far as
regarded the protection of the Church of
England. That declaration was at last
repealed, and he trusted that many of the
childish declarations and difficulties which
in former times had arisen from events
very different to those of the present day
would be removed, and that the day would
soon arrive when no man would be known
but in respect of the excellence of his cha-
racter and his desire to promote the in-
terests of the country.
Ms. WHALLEY said, he felt he could
add nothing to what had fSallen from the
hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr.
l^ewdcgate), who, ho was happy to see,
had resumed the position he had occupied
for 80 many years upon this subject. He
must, however, express his amazement at
the observations which had fallen from the
hon. Member for Sheffield, whose pre-
sumption was beyond conception, because
he would insist upon it that the various
protections which existed were frivolous
and unnecessary. The opinion which the
hon. Gentleman had expressed appeared to
be so chronic, so engraven in ms mind,
that he did not appear to remember what
had been said by the hon* Member for
North Warwickshire. Whatever might
have been the course pursued by that hon.
Gentleman for the last eight years the
question now was not a question of re-
ligion, but whether it was or not a fact
that, associated with the religious views
professed by Roman Catholics, there were
certain political opinions, which in all
ages, and in all countries — and never more
than at the present moment — were incon-
sistent with independence and with every
principle of civil and religious freedom.
The hon. Member for Sheffield appeared
to have overlooked that fact,^ and to insist
that all the precautions which our ancestors
had framed and devised were frivolous and
vexatious. He must also remind the House
that if the question were decided according
to the views of the hon. and learned Baronet
they would be acting wholly without Par-
liamentary precedent They had refused an
inquiry, and adopted the sentiment of the
hon. Member for Sheffield, that this was
simply a question of religious scruple,
which he firmly maintained it was not.
He (Mr. Whalley) had been cried down
in a former Session for asserting that the
Fenian conspiracy had been originated in
the interests of the Eoman Catholic hier-
archy; but if the House would grant a
Committee to investigate the subject he
was prepared to reiterate that assertion,
and to prove it upon evidence as reasonable
as the nature of the case admitted. From
1862 till very recently the treasonable
organization had been sustained by the
same power that gave it birth ; and then,
as in the case of all other Irish rebellions,
when it had served its purpose, it was
allowed to drop, the Boman Catholic
hierarchy saying, " We will go no further
in this business at the present time." Just
as the Fenian pikes recently discovered
were found carefully oiled and greased,
and evidently laid by for a better oppor-
tunity, so tho Fenian organization was put
out of sight to be revived at some future
period. The case of Ireland was almost
identical with that of New Zealand. And,
perhaps, the able and gallant General, now
at the head of the War Department, would
hereafter speak out and tell the House,
how it came to pass that 10,000 British
soldiers were unable to put down 5,000
natives in insurrection, who were quelled
by the colonists as soon as the soldiers
were withdrawn. [ Cries of " Question !"]
If the House were enlightened upon the
point, it would be found that the rebellion
had bera fomented by the Soman Catholic
119
itflf «( JVirvy--*
(lOBDS)
Motimfir SHttrm.
ISO
priests and penons professiDg the Roman
Catholic religion.
Motion agreed to,
ReiohfeSt, That the Chairman he directed to
more the Hooae, that leaye he given to hring in a
Bill to remoTe certain Religioai Diaahiiitiea af-
fecting Bome of Her Majesty's snhjeots, and to
amend the Law relating to Oaths of Office.
Resolution reported: — Bill ordered to he
hrought in hj Sir Colmah O'Loobuv, Mr.CooAN,
and Sir Jobh Grat.
BiWjn^eeenied, and read the first time. [Bill 7.]
XITCHSlf AK^ BEFEB8HKENT BOOMS ^HOUSB
OV OOMMOKS.)
Standing Committee appointed and nominated,
" to control the arrangements of the Kitchen and
Refreshment Rooms, in the department of the
Serjeant at Arms attending this House:" — Colonel
Frbmcb, Lord Robibt Mobtagu, Mr. DAXdOUss,
Mr. Obslow, Mr. Adam, General Dubbb, Mr.
Alderman Lawbbbcb, Mr. Robbbtsob, and Cap-
tain J. C. W. VxTUB :^Three to he the quorum.
Uonaeadljonnied at half after
SoTcn o'clock.
^^^^^«^k^i^l^k^^H#
HOUSE OF LORDS,
Uridaff, February 8, 1867.
MINUTES.]— 5<i< Firet in Par/iamim<-- The
Lord Tyrone after the Death of his Father.
PRIVILEGE.— MR. R. S. FRANCE.
LoBD EEDESDALE said, he was sonr
to haye to call the attention of their Lora-
ships to a matter personal to himself,
'which, however, he should not have
hrought before them had it not involved
the privileges of their Lordships' House.
He had received a pamphlet written by
Mr. France, a railway contractor, which,
purporting to give a review of his conduct
as regarded a certain Railway Bill during
its progress through the Legislature, not
only canvassed his opinions, but also made
some reflections upon him as Chairman
of Crommittees. He had no objection to
having his opinions canvassed by any one;
but Mr. France went further, and boldly
stated that he would deal witii the noble
Lord in his judicial capacity. Bemarking
that he was the contractor of the Mold
and Denbigh Bailway, he charged him
(Lord Redesdale) with having come to an
unwarrantable decision with reference to a
Bill in which that railway was concerned,
Ut. Whalley
and with having inserted a clause in ano-
ther Bill relating to the same railway.
He (Lord Bedesdale) was unable to under-
stand how Mr. France could have confused
matters as he had done; but it was much
to be regretted that the circumstantial
nature of his pamphlet save it all the ap-
pearance of truth, while, as a matter of
fact, it was false from beginning to end.
He intended to draw Mr. France's atten-
tion to the matter by letter, and leave him
to take what course he pleased ; but unless
he received from him a complete retracta-
tion of all the charges he had made asainst
him, he should think it his duty, in the
course of next week, to ask their Lord-
ships to order Mr. France to the Bar of the
House.
HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE
ADDRESS.
HER MAJESTY'S Answer to the Ad-
dress, reported as follows :— -
'' My Lords,
** I THAKK you sincerely for your loyal
and dutiful Address.
"You may be assured that I shall
always be ready to co-operate with you in
all Measures which have for their Object
the Improvements of the Laws and Insti-
tutions of the Country, and the Fromotioa
of the Wel&re and Happiness of My
People."
Address and Answer to be printed and
published.
ROYAL NAVY.
MOTION FOB fiXTUnVS.
The Duke ov SOMERSET, in nwviny
for certain Returns respecting the Royal
Navy, said : My Lords, I have thought it
right to bring forward Uiis Motion, because
there has been, as it appears to me, a gfeat
misconception throughout the country as
to the state in which the navy has been
left by the late Government. I do not
know whether I can ascribe that opinion
to a few words which fell from the present
First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir John
Pakington) in another place at Uie end of
last Session ; but certainly the notion has
spread until it has been stated in different
parts of the country, and has been re-
peated for many months, that we have at
the present moment no sufficient number
of vessels for naval purposes, and that the
121
Sojfol Jtavjf-^ {Febbttabt 8, 1867} Motumfar Bdutn$. 122
oonniry waa left by the late Government
vithoat efficient protection bo far as our
navY is concerned, although there has been
dnnng the last six years a large expendi-
turo devoted to that portion of the public
service, amounting to between £65,000,000
and £70,000,000. Such at least has been
the impression. Your Lordships will there-
fore see that it is desirable that no oppor-
tunity should be lost of calling for Betums
showing what has really been done in the
way of building ships during the six years
that the late Government was in Office. As
many ships, I believe, have at least been
constructed during that period as during
any other six years of peace. In those
six years we built 140 vessels of different
kinds. That is a considerable amount of
shipbuilding. Not only have we done
this, but it should be remembered that
our path has been beset by difficulties.
Great changes have taken place in con-
struction both as regards iron and wooden
ships, and much difference of opinion has
existed as to the amount of plating which
should be applied to the different classes
of nev ships. While the transition in all
departments was so great, the Board of
Admiralty over which I presided felt a
great responsibility rested upon them in
regard to the expenditure which should be
incurred. On the one hand, we felt it
desiraUe to do all we could to keep up
the navy in a state of efficiency ; and on
the otlier, we recognised the folly of build-
ing a vast number of ships which might
be useful at the moment, but which would
certainly be superseded in the course of a
few years. I think we acted wisely in
not building ships faster, because iron-
clads are a very expensive description of
vessel, and new experiments and improve-
ments were being constantly made with
reference to size, armament, and sheath-
ing. It was almost impossible to provide
a very good fleet while these experiments
were proceeding, or to collect a number of
vessels and bring them to act together, as
we might have done if greater uniformity
prevailed among them. In fact, if any
opinion was to have been given on our
conduct, I thought that opinion would
have been that we had done too much
rather than too little in the way of ship-
building. I had not only to determine
what we should do, but to judge of the
probable consequences hereafter. When
I first came into Office we had not a single
iron-clad vessel. We now possess thirty-
Vi^ VMSkj of them of great siae. During
a time of rapid progress in the art of ship-
building it is almost impossible to construct
a satisfactory fleet, because every new ship
possesses improvements which render it
superior to its predecessor. At the same
time, it would have evinced great negli-
gence of the true interests of the country
to have adhered to the pattern of the first
ship. The fTarrior, for instance, was a
very fine vessel at the time of its construc-
tion, but in the course of a few years it
has become comparatively inferior to many
others that have been since built. Neither
the offensive nor the defensive qualities of
that vessel are as good as we could wish.
I was anxious, as far as possible, to anti-
cipate the wants of the country a few years
hence, and I think that we certainly have
made considerable progress. I believe that,
on the whole, there is no ground for dis-
satisfaction with the vessels that have been
built. I have reason to believe that the
opinions of the distinguished officers of the
Channel fleet are favourable; and when,
as at Cherbourg, the merits of our vessels
have been compared with those of other
nations, the general opinion was that we
had no reason to be dissatisfied with the
vessels we possessed. I cannot see, there-
fore, that there is anything to blame as
far as the construction of our iron-dad
ships is concerned. Then again, as regards
the wooden vessels, in the early part of
my administration — namely, from 1860 to
1862 or 1863 — we did not know the gun
which these vessels would have to carry.
Unless you know what gun a vessel has
to carry you are working a great deal in
the dark, and it was clear that our ships
would eventually carry a much larger gun
than was then employed. The demands
of the service, too, compelled us to repair
and employ fnany of our old vessels, and
this could only be done at a considerable
cost. Upon these grounds, therefore, the
number of Tossels built was, I believe, as
great as it should have been. I may,
perhaps, now make a few observations
on another point — the question of ex-
penditure. It seems to have been sup-
posed in many quarters that the whole
of the £70,000,000 voted for the navy
was applicable to the purposes of ship-
building. Now, any such notion as
that is a great misapprehension. The
amount really expended in dockyards
during those six years, not including
vesseU built by oonkact, would be about
£10,000,000; but a great proportion of
that sum has beea expe^deil in th^
128
Sofollfiwy^
(LOBSS)
Motion fir Seiurm.
124
repair and outfit of veseeU already oon-
Btnieted. The proportion spent in building
would be less certainly than half of the
£10,000,000. We also .built by oontract
vessels at an expense of about £7,000,000.
This sum — namely, £7,000,000 — with
about £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 expended
in the dockyards, would represent, I be-
lieve, the whole of our expenditure on
shipbuilding. It has been charged against
us that we were proceeding on a wrong
principle. It must, howeyer, be remem-
bered that we were passing through a
period of transition, when our progress
had to be guided b^ experiment. Great
praise had been lavished on vessels built
in private yards, and their merits were
extolled at toe expense of those constructed
in the Qovemment yards. We were con-
stantly warned that our ships as then con-
structed were of no use, and were told
that the turret principle was the one which
ought to be adopted. Beasons, of which
the House is aware, induced the Admiralty
to purchase a couple of turret vessels which
were lying in the Mersey. Before we
bought them, those by whom they were
visited brought away flaming accounts of
their excellent qualities — ^it was said that
they were capable of destroying the whole
fleet — but no sooner did they come into
our possession than every one found fault
with them. No doubt thoy are good vessels
for coast defence ; but the discomfort to
the ofBcers and men are so great that it
soon became evident they were not fit
vessels to send to sea. I paid them a visit,
and, although the officers treated the matter
with the good temper and good huuMur
which usually characterize the officers of
the navy, it was evident that there was a
considerable amount of discomfort, and
that if turret ships were adopted they
ought not to be constructed according to
that pattern. At another time we were
told that we ought to imitate exactly
vessels that were being built in America ;
and before the arrival of the Miantonomoh
we were continually being asked why we
did not build an impregnable vessel, whose
sides should be but little abovo the leyel
of the water, of great speed, carrying one
or two heavy guns, and requiring but few
men for her management. I was very
glad when that vessel arrived at these
shores, because it at once became apparent
to every one conversant with the subject
that it was impossible to make a crew
comfortable on board such a ship. The
TentUation dopendedentirely on the steam-
J%o Duie o/ 8omor9it
engine, and the crew of the Miantonomoh
were not only exposed to every discomfort,
but they wero liable to be smothered ia
the event of anything happening to the
ventilating engine so as to prevent its
working for a few minutes. I was informed
by one of the officers on board that ship
that on one occasion the engine had been
stopped accidentally for a short time, and
that the crew were scarcely able to breathe
until it was set to work again. It waa
evident that it would have been impossible
to send such a ship on a three years' cruise
to any pai-t of the world; and therefore
vessels of this description, howeyer well
fitted for coast defence, would not be ap-
plicable to the general purposes of the
British Navy. With regard to any ge-
neral reduction in the expenditure upon
the navy, I may remark that out of
the £70,000,000 there were at least
£40,000,000 expended upon objects with
which no Board of Admiralty could in-
terfere. With regard to tho accounts, I
can only say that I was very anxious
that the most strictly accurate accounts
should be kept in the dockyards. An
enormous expenditure was incurred in
those establishments in consequence of
converting sailing vessels into steamers
and wooden ships into iron-dads — the lat-
ter process invoWing tho erection of very
costly machinery for bending, planing,
drilling, and otherwise working plates of
iron six inches thick. I was very anx-
ious, taking into consideration tho vast and
annually increasing expenditure in the
dockyai^s, that a good system of keeping
accounts should be introduced into those
Departments ; and accordingly in 1860 I
consulted upon the matter with the late
Sir Richard Bromley, who was well ac-
quainted with the subject, and it was with
his assistance that what are called " tho
Expense Accounts " were established, and
an officer was appointed in each dockyard
to audit the accounts. I believe, from
what I have heard, that upon the whole
the accounts are in a state of gradual im-
provement; and although I am not prepared
to say that they may not bo yet further
improved, I am convinced that they are
established upon a sound and good system.
It was, however, objected in the House of
Commons, and in the public newspapers,
that our accounts were of no use, as it
was not possible to ^certain from them
the total cost of any particular vessel, so
that the expenditure upon it might be
contrasted with the price of a similar vea«
135
(Febbitast 8, 1867) Mctknfor SehimB.
126
Bel built in a prirate yard. It was said
that Tre ougbt to prepare a complete
balance sheet like any private firm, show-
ing the cost of each individoal vessel,
and that every expense in connection
with each dockyard must be carried into
account, and a balance struck in the
same way as would be done in a pri-
Tate ooncem. I doubted whether such
a system would not lead to confusion ; but
as the Board of Admiralty were anxious to
meet the wishes of many Members of the
House of Commons, we tried to do what was
desired. It was necessary to take all the
expenditure of eoch dockyard and to ap-
portion it amongst the different vessels built
or repaired there. At Portsmouth the
expenditure on lectures and schools and a
necessarily expensive police ran up the
expense enormously, and when the accounts
were placed before the House of Commons
the remark was made — ** Look at the
enormous sums which your ships cost ! **
and it was alleged that ships built at
Portsmouth cost a great deal more than
they did in private yards. But was it
fair to compare the expenses of public with
those of private establishments of this
kind? It was not* possible to institute
such a comparison without prejudicing the
former. Ilie object of our national dock-
yards is not merely to build ships quickly
and cheaply, but to have great resources
for their repair in time of war. To
ensure that, you must have a large supply
of machinery, a good deal of which wiU
in time of peace be idle, and the idleness
of which will prevent the manufacture
being carried on economically. We were
constantly told in 186^ that we ought to
copy commercial men, who managed their
affairs much better than we did ; and one
distinguished Member of the House of Com-
mons, Sir Morton Feto, said, ** Look at my
firm ; we have larger stores than the Admi-
ralty. We have £17,000,000 dispersed all
over the world, but we toko stock constantly,
and our accounts cause us no difficulty."
I do not know whether the public would
now repeat the advice which was then so
frequently offered by the newspapers, more
especially whether they would set up the
example of Peto and Co. These were
not the onl^ subjects of accusation against
us. Considering the smallness of the
amount involved, a great deal has been
said respecting the iron ballast which has
been used to pave some portions of the
dockyards. During the last twenty years
a quantity of iron ballast has been from
time to time taken out of sailing ships,
and, OS it was not required in steamers,
the weight of whose engines obviated the
nccessify for ballast, it was piled up in
various parts of the yards, where it occa*
sioncd a good deal of inconvenience. At
Chatham a little of it was sold, but the
purchaser afterwards found that it would
not answer his purpose, and declined to
take any more, and a similar attempt to
dispose of it at Plymouth entirely failed.
Long before I came into the Admiralty a
quantity of this ballast had been used for
paving* the yards, and finding the piles of
iron continually in the way, after vainly
endeavouring to sell it, we continued to
use it for paving as it wos wanted. There
is still, however, a large quantity piled up
in some of the dockyards. Since it has
been laid down it has proved of great
service in facilitating the heavy traffic of
the yards. It has, I hear, now turned
out to be veiy valuable in a commer-
cial point of view, and has been sold for
an enormous sum. I am very glad to
hear that such is the case, and all l£at has
to be done is to take it up. I myself did
not know how to sell it. Perhaps I did
not know how to advertise it. Now, how-
ever, it had been admirably advertised;
for when you want anything advertised
you can find no better place in the world
than the House of Commons in which to
advertise it. I may remind the present
Government that there are a number of old-
fashioned cannon balls at Woolwich, which
they might do well to advertise also, as, if
old cast iron be so valuable, they would pro-
bably bring in a good round sum. These are
samples of the accusations that have been
made against the late Admiralty. I should
have no fear of submitting their proceed-
ings to the judgment of any Committee
whatever, whether as regards the men or
the building and repairing of ships. With
regard to the subject of manning the navy,
I may inform your Lordships that when
the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) was
last in Office, a Commission, of which Lord
[Jardwicko was Chairman, was appointed
to take this question into consideration.
When wo succeeded to Office, the Board of
Admiralty adopted the Report of that
Commission, and dealt with many of its
recommendations. We established train-
ing ships for boys, and improved in many
t^ays the condition of the seamen, in
accordance with the recommendations con*
tained in that Beport, and our measures
were attended with great success. We
l«
BogalNavp^^
(LOBSS)
Moiimfor Sdurm*
138
had no difficulty in getting boys for the
navy. It was said, why did we not take
the pickpockets and idle boys off the streets
of I^ndon and educate them for the navy
— it was said they would make admirable
sailors. Why, we did not want them.
We had no difficulty in getting well-
behaved lads who were educated for the
purpose, and as for men, thanks to the
oontinuance-service men and the lads for
the training ships, our ships for the last
four years when they have been commis*
sioned have never had to wait for men.
The training ships were established on
a good system, tiie receiving ships were
also very much improved, and the men
on returning from leave went on board
and remained there till they are wanted
again. Of course, all this occasioned con-
siderable expense, for the comforts of the
men were increased. Then, as to the
Reserve, we were told it was most im-
portant tbat such a body should be formed,
and especially with a view to getting up
a friendly feeling between the Mercantile
Marine and the Boyal Navy. We estab-
lished the Eeserve. This Eeserve now con-
tains 16,000 men, and the result certainly
has been the creation of a very friendly
feeling between the Mercantile Marine
and the Royal Navy. Indeed, I believe that
the good understanding between them was
never better than at the present moment.
In this respect we only carried into effect
the recommendations of the Commission,
and we carried out those recommenda-
tions as far as we could. We did not
carry them all out, because that would
have involved very considerable expense ;
and, considering that we were spending
£5,000,000 or £6,000,000 annually upon
Uie men for the navy and the Reserve,
we did not think it advisable to go into
further expense on that head. Then,
as to docks and basins, we thought it
quite necessary that increased docks and
basins should be formed, and we added
very considerably to our dock accommoda-
tion. When we came into Office there was
no dock capable of receiving the Warrior,
We enlarged one of the docks at Ports-
mouth, so as to fit it for the accommodation
of that vessel. We improved and enlarged
other docks both there, at Plymouth, and at
other ports, and prepared a plan for the con-
struction of new docks at Chatham and at
Portsmouth, the carrying out of which
would involve the expenditure of a very
couMderable sum of money. I had myself
seen what had been done by France at
Toulon, by Italy, and by other Powers;
and I was of opinion that we ought to lose
no time in adding to our dock and basia
accommodation— an opinion which was
concurred in by a Committee of the House
of Commons, which approved the plans
submitted to it b^ the Board. Therefore*
my Lords, I think that as regards men,
and docks and basins, we did aU that we
ought to have done under the circum-
stances. It would have been unreasonable
to go further, because the expenditure of
those years was very large. We were
obliged to increase our Estimates to meet
the demands of the China war, and
when we are carrying on a war at a di8«
tance of 15,000 miles it is desirable te
place such a force in the hands of the
Commander-in-Chief as shall enable him
to bring that war to a close. That is the
best economy, and we succeeded in it.
I believe the great force we had in China
was the means of bringing that war so
speedily to a termination, and convinced
the Chinese of the futility of any longer
continuing the struggle against England
and France. From 1860 till last year we
have gone on somewhat reducing our Es-
timates. For my own part, I never de-
sired to take a larger sum on the annual
Estimates than necessary for the mainte-
nance of such a force and for the con-
struction of such vessels as were required
for immediate service. While the navy
is in a state of transition, I adhere to
that opinion. At the same time, I am
ready to admit that on this subject yoa
must deal with matters as they are at the
time, and as foreign politics may appear
to require. That is a question for the
Cabinet and not ftfr the Admiralty. What
the Board of Admiralty has to do is to
maintain such a force as would be sufficient
for the purposes required. In regard to
the future, I do not expect there will be
any great reduction in the Estimates un-
less there b a reduction of force. I caa
see no means of making a great reduction
of expense without reducing the number
of men, and as it is generally admitted
that we must have a large fleet I do not
imagine there will be any great reduction
in tiie number of men. With respect to
guns, I hope our three heavy guns of 6
tons, 9 tons, and 12 tons weight will
prove useful and serviceable weapons
wherewith to arm our vessels of war.
These, my Lords, are the grounds on
which I defend the policy which the late
Board of Admiralty follow^* I think w^
t^
Royal JSTavy'^
{ FEBRirABT 8, 1 867 1 Wdhn for Seiums. 1 80
wont as ikr in Bhipbnilding as wo were
entitled to do, and as to the position of
the men and the general condition of the
navy, we improved both ; although, like
all human institutions, the navy is, no
doubt, capable of still further improve-
ment. I have not said one word on the
patronage of the Admiralty, because no
appointments made by me have been
ever attacked. There was one appoint-
ment, indeed, to which objection was
made; that was the appointment of Mr.
Reed as Chief Constructor of the Navy.
That appointment, of which I am ready to
undertake the full responsibility, I made
under circumstances that rendered it ab-
solutely necessary. It was necessary to
build vessels plated round the water*line,
and capable of carrying very heavy arma-
ments; and we asked the department of
the Controller to produce lines for certain
vessels with proper flotation; but they
could only produce them 400 feet long.
I was convinced that there must be means
of obtaining shorter vessels with the ne-
cessary flotation, and I therefore resolved
to bring in a new person, and charge him
with their construction. I afterwards re-
ceived from some of the best authorities
on the subject of iron construction a
roport in which they expressed their ap-
proval .of the skill and ability with which
on iron vessel had been put together
in one of our dockyards. So far I am
justified in the appomtment of Mr. Reed,
and I hope that the present Board of
Admiralty may be equally fortunate in
any appointment they may make. With-
out detaining your Lordships further, I
shall now move that there be laid before
this House—
" Reiorn of the Number of Ships added to the
RojaI Nayy bj building or purohate, stating the
Tonnage of eaeh Vessel, from the Year 1860 to
1865 indosiTe.'*— ( 2^ l>tUee of SamerHU)
Tub Earl op DERBY : My Lords-—
Considering the many observations whieh
have been made in certain quarters on the
naval administration of the noble Duke, I
cannot be at all surprised that he desires to
take the earliest opportunity of bringing
before your Lordships the state of the navy,
and submitting to your Lordships an ab-
stract, at leasti of a certain blue-covered
|Amphlet — with which I believe the noble
Duke to be tolerably familiar — written in
vindication of the policy which the noble
Duke pursued at the Admiralty. Certainly,
my Lords, I have no cause to complain of
flie oonrse which the noble Duke has taken
yOIi. CU^XXY. [tbibp seizes.]
in the vindication-^ in many respects unne*
ceasary vindication— of his administration
of the navy, still less so because, in vindi-
cating his own economical arrangements
with regard to the navy, he has laid the
ground for future vindication of his sue*
cesBors against any attack of an excess of
expenditure arising from circumstances
and the progress of events such as the
noble Duke has detailed to your Lordships.
My Lords, I regret the less my inability
to follow the noble Duke through the
elaborate details into which he has en-
tered, because I am very far from sharing
in the condemnation which has been passed
very freely on many portions of the noble
Duke's administration. On the contrary,
I always believed that the noble Duke
was, in the administration of his office, an
active, industrious, energetic Minister. I
believe, moreover, that the noble Duke
brought to the administration of his office
a thorough and entire honesty of intention
and purpose; and I should be the last man
to deny that during the course of the noble
Duke's seven years' administration there
were many improvements introduced into
the system of the navy — improvements of
which the more merit belongs to him, be-
cause during the whole of that period, as
regards ships and guns, the service was in
course of transition, which rendered it
more difficult for him to deal with tho
subject ; and I should not have thought it
necessary to trouble your Lordships with
any observations if it had not been for a
single remark the noble Duke made at the
commencement of his observations, in
which he referred to a speech made by a
right hon. Friend of mine, the present
First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir Joha
Pakington), very soon after he entered on
office, with regard to the state of the
Navy Keserve. I am sure the noble
Duke will do my right hon. Friend the
justice to say that during the whole of his
administration he never met from him
with any factious opposition, or anything
but a cordial desire to support the mea*
sures which he introduced for the benefit
of the navy, and approval of the expendi-
ture which they rendered necessary. Very
shortly after my right hon. Friend suc-
ceeded to the office of First Lord of tho
Admiralty a question was asked in the
House of Commons as to the state of the
Navy Reserve ; and my right hon. Friend
was oblig^ to say, in answer, that he
regretted to *state that he did not find the
Navy Beserve in A satisfbotory condition*
131
B^iiN09}t^
(LOBBSI
MoHmfmr BHurm.
or, indeed, in sttch a ttate as he had a right
to find them — so much so, that the Admi-
ralty had a difficulty in finding relief for the
ships that return from foreign service. If my
right hon. Friend wanted any justification
for the statement it is to be found in the
Eeport, with which the noble Duke must
be more &miliar than most of your Lord-
ships. The Report is dated February,
1866; and upon this very point of the
insufficiency of the Besenre the Beport
Btate»—
** The lame neeeetity for emplojing small Tes«
tela woald, I apprehend, exist in a fature war, and
in peace time they are indispensable. And how
do we stand ? In the last two years there hare been
lost to the serrioe— paddle-steamers, thirty ; serew-
■teamers, twenty-two ; and in the same period fifty-
one gnnboats haye been removed from the naTy.
To replaee these a Tery lew small Tossels, already
on the stooks, are being completed, and seven of the
Amaiim class are building. In the meantime,
onr reserve is inadequate to supply the ordinary
relielii on foreign stations, and should an extra
Tsssel be anywhere required we have not one dis-
posable."
The Amaton^ as your Lordships will re-
oollecl^ is the unfortunate yessel which
has since been destroyed by accident
That is the Report, not of a hostile Com-
mittee, of the noble Duke's first Naral
Lord of the Admiralty, Sir Frederick Grey,
at the commencement of the Session of
1866, Consequently, my right hon. Friend
the present First Lord of the Admiralty
was obliged to say, in answer to a Quea-
'tion put to him in the House of Commons,
and not bringing the matter forwaid in
the way of accusation, that the state of
the Reserre was not satisfactory, for, ac-
cording to the language of a member of
the preoeding Board of Admiralty, the Re-
serve was not sufficient for the ordinary
reliefs on foreign stations, and if one extra
vessel were required, there was not one
disposable. My right hon. Friend did not
put this forwaid as a charge against the
noble Duke ; but the Report I have re-
ferred to is a complete vindication of the
statement which my right hon. Friend
could not but make in giving a plain and
honest answer to the Question put to him.
I need not say I have no objection to
furnish the noUe Duke with the Returns
he asks for, but I would suggest to him
that there should be some slight alteration
in the form of the Return. The noble
Duke, in the latter part of his speech,
said he wished lor a Return of the num-
ber of ships added to the navy, by building
or purchase, in each year from 1860 to
1866, and I propose to insert the words
J^ Farl of J)ert9
''in each year" in the Motion. I hope,
too, that the noble Duke will carry tHe
Return down to 1866; for, though tho
noble Duke is not responsible for the last
half year of 1859, as the Estimates were
then of his predecessors, he is reaponsiblo
for the whole of 1866, for which the Esti*
mates were brought forward by hia OoTem-
ment The Return in that form will givo
a complete detail of the whole namber
added in each year, and I think this altera*
tion will be necessary in order to make it a
complete Return of the state of the navy,
as the noble Duke found it, and left It.
It is not sufficient to make a Retom of
the additions made to the navy during:
that period ; we ought to have a oorre-
spending Return of tho various vessels
withdrawn, sold, lost, or otherwise dis-
posed of within the same period. That
will give exactly what the noble Duke
requires. The reason whv I lay stress on
obtaining accounts of each separate year
is because I find an extraordinary dis-
crapancy in the amounts of tlie Estimates
for the yean in question. I confine my
observations entirely to the building of
vessels by contract, and I find that in
the fint five yean of the noble Duke's
administration of the naty, very large
sums were taken ; but it is a matter
open to question whether in the last two
yean out of the seven of the noble Duke's
administration, sufficient pains were taken
by the Admiralty to keep up the stock of
vessels of a description fitted for war. The
variation in the Estimates is remarkable.
For 1860-1 the amount for building by
contract was £}, 478,000; for 1861-2 it
was £1,621,000; for 1862-3 it was
£1,470,000; for 1863-4 it was £867,000;
for 1864-5 it was £882,000; for 18656
it was £564,000; and for 1867 it was
only £318,000. In these two last yean
the Estimates fall very far below the Es-
timates for building in the previous yean.
In 1865-6 the Estimate for an iron-clad
vessel was £120,000, but no work was
done in that respecti and the money was
ratumed to the Exchequer; and out of
the Estimate of £318,000 taken in the
last year only £67,000 wen expended
for new ships. All this time foreign
countries, and especially France, were
rapidly increasing their navies, and ve
are told in the Report I have quoted that
during the same period no less than fifty-
two steamen and fifty-one gunboats were
lost to the service. I think, therefore, it
is important to see how £eur the Estimatei
138
JbyaZiPbvy— >
(rBBBVABT 8, 1867} Motion for Sdums. 184
of the two last yean were sufficient to
supply the deficiencies occasioned by the
ordinary wear and tear of the service.
The noble Duke says that the Estimates
of the navy depend on the number of men,
and that is true to a great extent. The
noble Duke added that the Estimates do not
depend on the First Lord of the Admiralty ;
and I can readily imagine that the noble
Duke found that during the last years of
his administration a very considerable dif-
ference of opinion prevailed between the
Treasury and the Board of Admiralty
with respect to the amount necessary to
provide for keeping up the strength of the
navy ; but I should think there can be no
doubt as to the desirableness of replacing
the large number of ships that have been
withdrawn. Having made these observa-
tions in vindication of my right hon.
Friend against any supposition that he
made a charge against the noble Duke,
I can only say that I have listened with
great satisfaction to the observations of
the noble Duke, and have not the slightest
objection to furnish the Keturns in the
form I have suggested — indeed, I think
they will be of very great service.
Thb DuxiE 07 SOMERSET : I have no
objection to the addition suggested by the
noble Earl in regard to the vessels which
have been done away with and disposed of
in various ways ; but I think it is desirable
to state the class to which they belonged,
because a mere list of numbers, without
stating the character of the ships with-
drawn, would be perfectly useless. I
cannot suppose for a moment that the
noble Earl will argue in favour of restor-
ing the wooden line-of-battle ships with-
drawn in 1859. We had no iron-clad
fleet before that time, end therefore no
comparison of numbers can afford a fair
estimate of the strength of the navy at
the two different periods. I presume, also,
that notice will be taken, in reference to
the expenditure referred to, of the vessels
that have been built by contract For my
part, I have latterly wished, whenever an
entirely new model is adopted, that die
vessel should be constructed in a Go-
vernment dockyard, for the simple reason
that when a vessel is built by contract,
we are absolutely bound by the specifica-
tions, and in the event of any alteration
being required during the building, it is
always attended not only with great ex-
pense, but with no end of delay. Within
the last two jrears a heavy expense has
been incnired in makin|; the small changes
and improvements in the class of vessels
referred to by the noble Earl.
The Eabl or DEEBY : I agree with the
noble Duke that*a mere Return of numbers
will not give the required information
unless the different classes of ships are
specified. I also think that the Returns
should show as fully as possible not only
the vessels which have been sold and other*
wise lost in the service, but the altera-
tions that have been made in the different
classes of vessels. I hope tbe noble Duke
will not think that I would object to the
disposing of old and obsolete vessels. On
the contrary, I am of opinion that as soon
as it becomes manifest that a ship is no
longer serviceable, it should be at once
referred to an inspector, so as not to incur
any additional or unnecessary expense in
maintaining a vessel that is no longer
useful*
Earl GREY said, the last observation
made by the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby)
induced him to express a hope that the
construction of the navy was a matter in
which the Government would not proceed
too fast. Their Lordships must remember
that in the Queen's Speech of 1859, Parlia-
ment was informed that a large Vote would
be asked (or the re>construction of the navy.
That Vote was explained to be required
in consequence of our wooden steam-ships
of the line having fallen much below
the required state of efficiency. In the
debate that followed he (Earl Grey) ven-
tured to protest against the proposed outlay
at the time. He stated that it was already
known that ships of the line built upon the
svstem then in use would soon turn out
to be useless for all the purposes of war.
His remonstrance, however, was not lis-
tened to, and a considerable number of
new ships were laid down at a great ex-
pense. Some of them, he believed, had
never been completed at aU, and some
had been finished in a very different way
from what was originally designed, and at
an increased expense. The whole subject
of naval construction was at present in
such a state of transition^there was such
a strong certainty that the ships of this
year would not be the ships of the next
five, or, perhaps, even of the next two
years — that he held it to be most inexpe-
dient to expend large sums of public money
in building ships which they could not be
assured would meet the exigencies of war
wh^n the time for their service really ar-
rived. He very much doubted — and his
doubts were shared by persons of toi more
F3
135 Propoied li-adei UhiOM (LOBSS) Demonstration on Monday. 136
knowledge than he could pretend to, whose
attention had heen carefully directed to
the subject —whether our system of build-
ing iron-clads would, in the end, turn out
to be a wise policy. Their Lordships
were very well aware what was the cus-
tom in former days with regard to cavalry.
Both men and horses were so orerloaded
with defensive armour that they were al-
most safe from the blows of an enemy —
they were also almost as unable to injure
him. By degrees this was seen to be a
bad system ; armour fell into disuse ; and
for knights so carefully protected that
they had lost the power of offence, it was
found advisable to substitute a swift and
active cavalry. There seemed to be no
small reason for believing that we might
be falling into a similar mistake by over-
weighting our vessels with armour and
80 crippling their movements. Some of
our ablest men maintained that such was
the progress of science that very soon no
ship we might be able to build would be
able to withstand the artillery brought
into play, and that it would, therefore, be
expedient to proceed upon a different
rnu He was much inclined to believe
instead of striving at an enormous
cost to build iron-plated yessels able to
resist the daily increasing power of artil-
lery, it might prove to be better to build
vessels of very great speed, carrying one
or two of the most powerful guns, and
trust to their not being hit to their power
of destroying the enemy, rather than their
being able to resist their projectileB. This
principle, he thought, might very probably
turn out to be the correct one as regarded
the construction of the navy. At all
events he was sure, seeing they were as
yet ignorant of what might be the im-
provements and discoveries made in the
future in regard to naval science, that it
would be neither wise nor prudent to
expend too large sums of money in pro-
ducing armour- plated ships beyond what
were immediately wanted according to
our present lights. Tears ago — so far
back as the administration of Lord Mel-
bourne—he was very much opposed to
building ships of the line without steam
power, being convinced that although the
means then known of applying steam to
the purposes of war were still so defective,
it was certain that the progress of science
would discover some means of using this
most powerful agent in ships of war, and
that therefore ships without it would be-
come useless. But his objections were
Earl Orojf
overruled. It was urged that we were too
weak as compared to other Powers in line-
of-battle ships, and that more must be
built. Large sums were accordingly ap-
plied in building ships of that kind,
which had proved, as he had ventured
to predict, utterly useless. When this
became evident, the cry was that we must
lose no time in building a large fleet of
screw ships of the line to take the place
of those that had become obsolete. Am
he had already mentioned, this was for-
mally recommended to Parliament in the
Speech from the Throne in the year 1859,
when he again opposed this policy, point-
ing out that it was already evident that
the use of shells must soon make the use
of these large wooden ships impossible
without extreme danger. In spite of his op-
position, however, large sums of inoney—
hundreds of thousands, if not millions-
had been spent in building vessels which,
he had condemned, and which were now
admitted to be useless. He must say that
the responsibility of these errors rested not
with the Admiraltv, not even with the
Government that might be in power, but
with the House of Commons. Whenever
there was a great mistake made in the
administration, it generally arose from
the pressure put upon the Government in
the House of Commons, to adopt without
due consideration some measure for which,
there might be a popular cry at the mo-
ment, and the consequence had been that
there had been a great waste of the public
money upon the navy. He ventured to
say that if their Lordships went into a
careful examination of the money that had
been so wasted it would be foand that a
great part of it was attributable to the
House of Commons.
Motion amended and agreed to.
Ordered, That there be laid before this Home
Return of the Number of Ships added to the
Rojal Navy by building or purchase, stating the
Tonnage of each Vessel, in each Tear from the
Tear 1860 to 1860 inclnsiTe :
A similar Return of aU Ships, stating their
Desoripiion and Tonnage, withdrawn from the
Royal Nary by Sale, I^ss at Sea, or otherwise,
during the same respeotifeTears.--(7%tf Duke of
Scmtnet,)
PROPOSED TRADES UNIONS DEMON-
STRATION ON MONDAT.-^UESTION.
Tms Earl of DUDLEY, in rising to
ask the intention of the Ooyemment with
respect to the proposed procession of mem*
1S7 PmjfOB&d Drad$$ Vhlon$ {Fkbsuabz 8, 1867) D&Bionstnaian an McfnUiy. 138
ben of trades unions throngh dereral of
tho most crowded thoroughfares of the
metropolis and the West End next Monday,
saidy he was fnlly aware of the delicacy
of the snbject to which he was about to
address himself;, but there was a general
feeling that such processions assembling
and taking possession of the principal
streets of London, for the purpose of
making what was termed a demonsteation,
was an evil that was on the increase, and
if allowed to go on would assume a posi-
tion to defy all attempts to interfere with
them, and therefore it was that he had
deemed it his duty to bring the matter
under the notice of the House; 'and he
must confess that, after the announcement
which had be^n made by Her Majesty's
Ministers on the first day of the Session,
he had hoped that those who took the most
actire part in promoting the intended
demonstration would have come to the
conclusion that there was no necessity for
making it, for a most distinct promise had
then been given on the part of the Qo-
yemment that they would lose no time in
dealing with the great question of Eeform,
which was undoubtedly the great question
of the day. He was, under these circum-
stances, greatly grieved to find that the
leaders of the movement should, instead of
waiting to learn what course Ministers
might take on the question, deem it neces-
sary to be beforehand with them. He
deeply regretted that there should be any
necessity for a Member of their Lordships'
House rising for the purpose. In what he
was about to say with regard to the pro-
posed trades procession, he hoped it would
be distinctly understood that he had no
desire whatever to say a single word which
might tend to irritate the public mind;
and if he did use any expression of such a
nature, he assured their Lordships that it
would only be used in mistake and not from
intention. Indeed, at the present moment
the public mind was quite enough excited
upon the subject without anything uttered
in Parliament being construed into a ground
of farther irritation. He could look upon
the proposed meeting and procession of
Monday next in no other ught than a
monstrous demonstration of the trades
unions of the country. He would be the
last man to stand up in their Lordships'
House and deny the right of the people to
meet and discuss any political grievances
under which they deemed themselves to
be suffering, or for the purpose of procuring
a fidr representation of tiieir opinions in
Parliament. But that was a very different
thing from the procession with which we
were threatened on Monday next, which,
under pretence of meeting in the Agricul-
tural Hall, at Islington, was to assemble
in Trafalgar Square. He felt that the
fair and open discussion of political sub-
jects was not the real object of the pro-
posed meeting ; for no one could fail to see
that at such a meeting no discussion in
the ordinary sense of the tei-m could take
place, but that it was held, if not for the
express purpose of intimidation, at least
by bringing immense multitudes of peo-
ple to a central place in the metropolis,
and then taking a circuitous route through
all the most frequented streets of London,
to cause such a demonstration as might
influence Parliament in its deliberations
on the question of Reform. Suriely, if
those persons who proposed to come from
the north, south, east, or west of the
metropolis, and congregate in the neigh-
bourhood of Trafalgar Square, really
wished to go to the Agricultaral Hall at
Islington, for the purposo of discussing
their political grievances, there was no
occasion to resort in the first place to a
great central square, from which the start
was to take place. He understood that
measures for the preservation of the public
peace had been taken, to the extent at
least of procuring six out of every hundred
fiersons being sworn as special constables.
The Earl of Derby intimated dissent.]
The noble Earl shook his head ; but if he
were incorrect in that statement, all that he
could Fay was that he was sorry that there
should be less endeavour on the part of
tho promoters of the meeting to preserve
the peace than he gave them credit for.
Nobody could deny that the passing of
such a procession through the principal
streets in a circuitous instead of in a direct
line was designed mainly for the purpose
of producing an effect on the clubs and
the West End of the town; and he re-
minded their Lordships that every time
such a procession were permitted, it be-
came a precedent which rendered every
similar attempt less likely to be resisted.
He thought it rather unwise that the
Department of the Oovemment which
had been more in direct communication
with the leaders of this proposed demon*
stration than had usually been the case in
any similar circumstances, had not exer-
cised their powers of persuasion more
successfully for its prevention, and thus
rendered it unnecessary to call the atten^
139 JPr0po$ed H^ada Uni&nt (LOBDS) JDm&HiiraiimimUandaf, 140
tion of Parliament to the Bubject. He
knew very well how diffionlt it was ia
discussiDg such a question with a large
body of men to say that such a course
coold not be permitted ; but ho had hoped,
at all events, that the counsel which the
Goremment seem to have taken with the
leaders of this movement, would have
enabled them to have pointed out the loss
and inconvenience which must result to
the populace who happened to reside in
the thoroughfares which were chosen as
the route of the procession. But though
these meetings might be permitted now,
the matter was, after all, a question of
degree ; for it was possible that they might
become such an enofmous grievance that
it would be absolutely necessary to put a
stop to them. He should be the hut per-
son in the world to rise for the purpose
of embarrassing the Government. On the
contrary, after the course they had an-
nounced with reference to Beform, and
which, he thought, was the only course
they oould have parsued, everybody must
have wished that the proposed demonstra*
tion might have been dropped ; but arrived
as they were now within a few hours of
the meeting, the Government must have
determined upon the steps they would
take; and there could be no want of
discretion, therefore, in asking them to
state, for the information of Parliament,
what those steps were.
Thb Earl of DERBY : My Lords, I
can assure the noble Earl that no apology
was required from him for asking the
question which he has just put to me.
There can be no doubt that this question
is one of very serious importance ; and I
can assure him, also, that he cannot regret
more deeply than I do that those who
have the conduct of the vast organization,
and on which they have expended so much
pains and care for several months past,
should not have taken a more correct and
a sounder view of the duty they owe to
the public and the interests of the country
generally than to persist in holding a pro*
cession which, although I am bound to say
it is strictly within the law, yet is certainly ,
liable to produce, and must produce, very
great inconvenience, and perhaps, also,
acts of illegality. But the noble Earl
(the Earl of Dudley) does Her Majesty's
Government too much honour in sup-
posing that their powers of persuasion are
such as to induce these gentlemen to forego
the advantage of being allowed to display
in the streets their immense organiMtion,
The JEarl of Dudlei/
with marshals and sub-marshals, with
stars, scarves, banners, and an exhibition
of the most perfect military discipline.
We certainly cannot pretend to such in-
fluence with the leaders of this movement
as to have persuaded them, in deference to
any opinions of ours, or to any measures
which we are likely to introduce on the
subject of Reform, to desist from the
course on which they have long deter-
mined. Moreover, my Lords, much as I
deprecate the course these gentlemen are
pursidng, I entirely believe that they de-
sire, as for as they can, that the processioa
may be perfectly peaceable and orderly.
But the noble Earl will allow me to Bay
that he is in error when he supposes that
a certain number of each of these bodies
are to be sworn in as special constables.
It is not within the law that they can be
sworn in as special oonstables; for no
man can be so sworn in except upon infor-
mation sworn before a magistrate to the
effect that the person who swears such
information believes that a breach of the
peace is imminent, and that, in order to
guard against such breach of the peace, he
tenders his services to preserve the peace.
Now, it is quite clear that these gentle-
men, coming forward and saying — I be-
lieve most sincerely — that they are acting
with the most peaceable intentions, could
not bo expected to swear that the assem-
blage of delegates and of various other
bodies which they are organizing will be
such an assemblage as endangers the pub-
lic peace. Not but that I think breaches
of the peace will be committed, though
certainly not by those who are engaged in
the procession ; but when, in the heart of
a crowded metropolis, processions of, it
may be, 40,000, 50,000, 60,000, or 70,000
men gather and occupy busy thorough-
fares for a considerable portion of the dlay,
it is impossible that the idle and vagabond
dass on such occasions should not cause
much inconvenience and some danger.
And I would have the gentlemen who un-
dertake the conduct of these vast proces-
sions to recollect that although the proces-
sion itself may not be illegal, yet it may
become illegal through the circumstances
attending it ; and in that case those who
so recklessly expose the metropolis to
danger cannot escape from the responsi-
bili^ they thus incur. They must, and
they will, be held personally liable for
any loss to property or to person which
may result from their acts. There can be
no doubt that tiie proposed meeting will
14t Drop&sei li-ad^ UnionM [Febbuabt 8, 1667) Demomtration on Mondajf. 143
eave Teiy eooAderable obstnietioii of the
«rdiDaiy traffic, and great incenTenience —
that it must canee great loss both to the
operatiTea themselyee, irho will lose a
^s mgesp and also to the shopkeepers,
and ineonTenience to OTenrbody to an in-
esienlable extent ; — and aU tar what ? For
the parpose^ as they state, of making a
demonstration in favoar of Reform. But
'Sa Majeaty'a GoTemment, as the noble
Sari says, are quite prepared to deal with
ttnt qoestiony and bring it forward for the
eoosideration of Farliament. And here I
Bost remark that demonstrations of this
kind are little calculated to promote that
calmneaa with which so grave a question
ooght to be submitted to Parliament.
MoreoTer, if we are to believe the asser-
tions of the leaders of this organization,
the mnltitadea who are about to assemble
in this way are to meet for an object to
which I will not say tho present Govem-
nent, bat to which no Goyemment, and
BO statesman who can ever be called upon
to conduct the affairs of this country,
would ever consent; because we are
told that that which alone will satisfy
these vast assemblages and their lenders
is ^e adoption of manhood suffrage
and vote by ballot — two things which,
eombined, would absolutely and entirely
OTothiow the Constitution of this coun-
tiy. Wellp what encouragement has Far-
hament for entering upon the course of
ddiberating and considering how far it
should extend the franchise and increase
the liberties of the people if it is told,
** An you do is nothing — is of no use what-
e?er. Here we bring together a demon-
stration of our physical strength and our
numbersi to show you, the Farliament,
that unless you do tnat which we know it
IB impossible you can ever consent to do,
all your labours will go for nothing — they
will produce no gratitude, but will onl^
lead to fredi demonstrations and ezhibi-
tio&s of force, until we obtain that which
would be a practical revolution in this
eountry ? " My Lords, I have not so poor
sn opinion of the House of Commons as to
beiim for a single moment that any de-
monatiation of this sort will intimidate
them or lead them to consent to extreme
demands. On the contrary, I only hope
it may not have the opposite effect of do-
terring them from fairly and candidly con-
ndering the merits of the case, and that
they may not be induced to refrain from
givmg that which may safely, reasonably,
aad jnstlT be giveoy owing to exhibitions
of physical force and of numbers on behalf
of that which is wholly alien to the Con*
stitution and the spirit of the country. In
regard to the noble EarPs inquiry as to
what the Government are going to do in
respect to the proposed procession, it is
only necessary to say that they will confine
themselves within the limits of the law.
We have carefully considered what mea-
sures it might be in our power to take to put
a stop to this demonstnition and interfere
with its progress ; and we are informed that
this procession, however mischievous, in-
jurious, and liable to produce loss of pro-
perty, and it may be of life, is not in itself
illegal, and that we should not be justified
in interfering with it so long as it conducts
itself peaceably, and only passes quietly
through the streets. There are two Acts
of Farliament which bear on this subject.
One of them, passed in the reign of Charles
II., prohibits any persons, under a penalty,
from attempting to present petitions to
Farliament in greater numbers than ten
together. There is another Act of George
III., to which, I suppose, the noble Earl
referred, in respect to assemblages within
a mile of Farliament. It provides that if
any persons shall assemble within a mile
of Farliament for the purpose of either
passing resolutions, petitions, or remon*
stranoes with regard to matters concerning
the State, in that case the assembly shall
be an illegal assembly, with all the penal
consequences attaching to it as such. But
there is nothing in the statute to say that
persons shall not meet within a mile of
Farliament for the purpose of there forming
a procession — not to come down to Far-
liament with a view of intimidating it,
but, as is said to be intended in this in-
stance, with a view of proceeding exactly
in an opposite direction — to Islington,
there to hold a meeting in the great Agri-
cultural Hall. There is nothing absolntely
illegal in that. The duty of the Govern-
ment, therefore, must in this case be con-
fined to taking care to have an ample
amount of force ready to interfere, if ne-
cessary, for the preservation of the public
peace, or for its restoration, if that peace
is disturbed. Further than that it is not
within our legal competence to interpose.
But the noble Earl said — and it is a point
very well worth consideration — that the
constant repetition of these processions and
demonstrations may render it necessary to
make some alteration in the law. I trust
that nothing of the kind will be required,
because we know that such an alteration
14»
ZniAi-*-
(COUVONS)
QusiUmi.
1^4
of the laW| howerer just or neoeasary,
would meet with very great resistance,
and might be thought an undue interfer-
ence with the liberties of the people— an
interference which could not be justified,
except by a general feeling on the part of
the country, that these demonstrations had
become quite intolerable, and a source of
eyil and mischief so grave as to render the
interposition of Parliament imperatively
reqidsite. Therefore, I can only say that,
while deprecating the holding of this pro-
cession, yet finding it legal, we can do
nothing except provide a force suflElcient
for the preservation of the peace. We
much regret the course about to be pursued
by its promoters, and we think it one
which is liable to lead to the most un-
favourable consequeuces, and likely to
create a feeling of bitterness between the
diffwent classes of the community, which
it is the duty of every good citizen as far
as possible to prevent.
The Eael of ELLENBOEOUGH : My
Lords, I speak in the presence of noble
and learned Lords who will correct me if
I am wrong, but the impression on my
mind, from my recollection of former
statements in Parliament and elsewhere,
when matters of a similar nature have
been under discussion, and from the de-
cisions of the Judges, is this — that when
any great assembly of persons is held
under circumstances which create fear —
reasonable fear — ^in the minds of firm men,
such assembly becomes of itself illegal,
whether any act of violence be committed
or not.
The lord CHANCELLOJl: My noble
Friend has not exactly stated the proposi-
tion correctly. It is true it has been
frequently decided by the Judges of the
land that large assemblages of persons, in
.terroretn populi, would constitute an un-
lawful assembly ; but no mere assemblage
of numbers would make a meeting illegal.
There must be a fear of violence or dis-
turbance of the public peace in order to
.constitute an unlawful assembly.
The Ea&l ov ELLENBOROUGH : But
this is not a mere assemblage of persons,
but an assemblage of persons sufficiently
drilled to carry a column of 40,000 or
60,000 men in military array through the
streets of London. That is not an ordi-
nary meeting of men, it is not one of the
meetings within the contemplation of the
law
The lord CHANCELLOR! As I
imderstand it, they are sufficiently drilled
The Earl of Ikrhy
to be able to proceed peaceably in proces-
sion through the streets.
ROLL OF THE LORDS.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the
House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments
had prepared and laid it on the Table :
The same was Ordered to \)e printed.
House adjoonied at a quarter befo
ScTen o'clock, to Monday next,
EleTen o'clock.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Friday, February 8, 1867.
MINUTES.>-Niw Writ Iuuid— ^or Golohcs-
ter, v.TaTemer John BiiUert eeqnirCi Bfanor of
Northstead.
Sblict Committib— On Mines appainUd.
PuDUc Bills — Betolutiani in CimmiUee — Dublin
^JniTerstty Professorships.
Ordered^ Metropolitan Poor ; Trades Unions ;
Criminal Law ; Dublin Unirersilj Prolessor-
ships*; Mines*; Libel.*
Firti Reading — Criminal Law [8]; Metropo-
liUn Poor [9] ; Dublin UniTersity Professor*
ships* [10]; Libel* [11],
QUEEN'S SPEECU— HER MAJESTY'S
ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The comptroller of the HOUSE-
HOLD (Yisoottnt Rotstok) reported Her
Majesty's Answer to the Address as
foUows :«-
** I have received with much eatief action
your loyal and dutiful Addreee.
" You may rely with confidence on My
cordial co-operation in all meaeures which
are calculated to enlarge and etrengthen the
free institutions of the Country, to im-
prove the Administration of the Law, and
to promote the toelfare and prosperity of
all classes of Jfy subjects.**
INDIA*— QUESTION.
Mr. EIKNAIRD asked the Soeretary
of State for Indisi Whether he has any
objection to lay upon the table of the
Hoase Copy of the Minutes of the Chief
Commissioner of Oudh and of the GoTemor
General, on the Re^rt of Mr. Dayies, the
Financial Commissioner, on the rights of
the Ryots, and of any Orders passed by
the Home Goremment of India on Sir
John Lawrence's decision ; whether tiie
140 I%$ProfimrMpofihe (FsbsvabtS, 1867) Unh0r$fifafl>uiUn. 14«
S^g'SS^ r*;*RSS'o^ "^^ ^^^«^= « ™« METEOPOLIS.
ktefunine in Bengal; and, whether at- qvesxiok.
toitioa has bem direeted to the following
points: — Ist. The extent of country af-
&eted» and the mortality caused ; 2nd. The
eanses of the famine, and how far aToid-
aUe in fiitare by works of irrigation ; 8rd.
The amount of warning of its approach,
and how far the existing maohmery of
rerenue administration is adapted to giTe
the needed warning; 4th. The measures
of precantion adopted by the Local Qovem-
meai of Bengal on receipt of such warning?
Yraooinrr CRANBOUBNE : With re-
spect to the first Question of the hon. Gen-
tleoum, BO orders have as yet been author-
ised or passed by the Queen's GoTemment
m the snbjeot of Sir John Lawrence's de-
dsioii. The Home Goyemment have the
sabjeet under consideration; and I hope
that a despatch will be shortly sent out.
As soon as it is it will be laid on the table
of the House, with the Minutes of the
Chief Commissioner of Oude and of the
QovemoT General, on the subject to which
the hon. Gentleman's inquiry refers. With
reject to the second Question of the hon.
Gentleman, the Queen's Government has
ordered a Commission to be issued to in-
quire into the causes of the famine in
Bengal, and the mortality which that
lamuie produced, and that Commission has
been isaned by the Govonor General. By
the news of the last mail we have every
ground to hope that the Commission will
send in a speedy Beport. The instructions
given to the Commission were very large,
but they substantially included all tho
points referred to by the hon. Member.
Ma. BRIGHT asked the noble Lord to
state whether the Commission was com-
posed entirely of members of the Indian
Government, or whether there was any
portion of it independent, so that it would
be likely to give a little more confidence to
the country.
YisoovjHT CRANBOTJENE : I do not
exsctly know what meaning the hon. Gen-
tleman attaches to the words '' Indian Go-
vonment." The President of the Com-
adsBioniBaJudge. A gentleman connected
with the revenue administration and a
colonel are the other members of the Com-
nussiai ; and I believe the names of all
three will secure for the Commission the
confidence of the Indian community and
of the public generally. I may mention
that the IVestdent is Judge Campbell^ one
of the best names in IndSis.
Ms. DENT asked the Vice President of
the Committee of Council, If he can give
the House any information as to the cause
and extent of* the recent outbreak of Cattle
Plague in the Metropolis?
Mb. CORRT : As to the first part of
the hon. Gentleman's Question, relating to
the cause of the recent outbreak of cattle
disease in the metropolis, I beg to inform
him that the Privy Council caused an
immediate and searching inquiry into the
subject, but as yet it has received no sa-
tisfactory information. In respect to the
second part of the hon. Gentleman's Ques-
tion— the extent of the disease—it appears
that forty-six animals had been exposed to
the infection, the whole of which were
slaughtered under pressure of the Privy
Council, or the local authority, but not
until twenty-eight had caught the disease.
The first case occurred on the 28th of last
month. No fresh case has been reported
since.
CENTRAL INDIA PRIZE MONET.
QUBsnov.
Mb. HARVEY LEWIS asked the Se-
cretaxj of State for India, When the dis-
tribution of the Central India Prize Money
(Lord Strathnaim's captures) will take
place ; and, what is the reason of the delay
m distributing the same ?
ViscoimT CRANBOURNE : The prin-
cipal cause of the long delay in distributing
the proceeds of Lord Strathnaim's cap-
tures has been the verv protracted litiga-
tion which has taken placo with respect to
them; but after the conclusion of that
litigation a Treasury Warrant, under Sign
Manual, was issued, and sent by us, last
year, to India, with a very strong admo-
nition as to the neceesiW of rapidly dis-
tributing tho money. I have not beard
whether the final steps have been taken ;
but I believe the distribution will be made
very shortly.
TnS FROFESSORSniP OF THE UNI-
VERSITY OF DUBLIN.
QXTESTIOir.
Mb. YANCE asked the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, If the
vacancy in the Professorship of the Uni-
versity of Dublin has been filled up ?
141
Law of
(COUMONS)
Ibr/eiturs^ Question. 148
Mil WALPOLB said, ibat he did not
believe that the Tacancy in the Frofessor-
ahip of the Unirersity of Dublin had been
filled up.
OUR MONETARY LAWS.
QUEsnoir.
Hb. WATEIN asked Mr. Chancellor of
the Exchequer, When— referring to the
pledge of the President of the Board of
Trade last Session that the GoTemment
Vfovld in the recess look into the causes of
the Commercial Panic and into the opera-
tion of our Monetary Law^s, "with the
earnest desire, if possible, to legislate on
the subject," " or to invite the attention
of the House to the subject," at the earliest
period — ^he proposes to put the House in
possession of any evidence taken, and of the
views and intentions of the Government ?
Thb chancellor op thb EXCHE-
QUEK: Sir, it is not our intention to
place any evidence on the matter before
the House, nor to legislate on the subject
of the cause of the monetary panic. I
think it will be a convenient opportunity,
when the hon. Gentleman moves for a
Committee on the subject of the Limited
Liability Acts, to state the general views
of the Government as to the course it may
deem it necessary to take in the matter.
THE HOLT SEE AND RUSSIA.
QTTEsnoir.
Mb. NEWDEGATE asked the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Aflfairs, Whether
he will lay upon the table of the House the
Circular Despatch of Prince Gortschakoff
to the Bussian Bepresentatives abroad
relative to the breaking off of the relations
between the Holy See and the Imperial
Government, and to the abrogation of the
Concordat of 1847, together with the
Documents annexed, Extracts from which
have appeared in the Newspapers of this
country ?
LoM) STANLEY: The paper to which
my hon. Friend refers has been published
by the Bussian Government ; it has been
printed at length in many of the Conti-
nental journals, and I believe the sub-
stance of it has appeared in several of
tKe English newspapers. It is therefore
quite accessible to all the world ; and as
it relates to a matter with which the
English Government has nothing to do
i^namely, the relations between Bussia
and the Holy See — ^I would ask the hon.
Jfr. Vaneo
Gentleman to consider whether it would
not be a waste of money to print the docu*
ment, unless there should be a general
desire on the part of the House that it
should be put in the hands of hon. Mem-
bers. If there is such a desire on the part
of the House, of course, we have no objec-
tion ; or if my hon. Friend or any other hon .
Gentleman wishes to reprint and circulate
it he may have access to a copy at the
Foreign Office.
Moved, " That the House at its risiu^
do adjourn till Monday.''
LAW OF FORFEITURE.— QUESTION.
Mb. CHABLES FOBSTBB asked the
Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, Whether it is his intention to intro-
duce a measure for the abolition of the
Law of Forfeiture on convictions of Felony,
founded on the provisions of the Bill
which obtained the assent of this House in
the last Session ? He remarked, that when
the Conservative party was in Office in
1859, two distinguished Members of the
Government, the present Lord Chief Baron
Kelly and the present Lord Chief Justice
Whiteside, gave their assent to a Bill for
the abolition of the Law of Forfeiture,
and had it not been for the circumstance
of a change of Administration, that Bill
would probably have been passed. The
House would also remember that he had
brought this subject under its notioe in
1864, when he introduced a Bill, the prip«
ciple of which was affirmed by the House
on the second reading. He then had great
pleasure in acceding to the request whieh
was made to him, to leave the further con-
duct of the measure in the hands of the
hon. and learned Member for Bichmond and
the Attorney General. His measure was
received with great favour on both sides of
the House, and was generally regarded as
a very important measure of legal Beform.
That Bill went up to the House of Lords^
but he regretted to say that circumstances
occurred which prevented its passing. The
present system was fraught with great
injustice, and acted most injuriously on
the mining interests of the conntiy at
large. A deputation from the traders of
South Staffoinishire had waited upon the
late Government on the subject, and stated
that they were unwilling to engage in
trade from the fear of exposing themselves
to the penalties of conviction for man-
slaughter in consequence of accidents from
causes over which they had no controL
149
Usiropoiiian
( Vbbbvart S, 1S67)
Poor BtU.
150
So strongly did he feel on this subject, that
he was determined, in case he should not
receiTO a favourable reply from the right
hon. Gentleman, to re-introduee the Bill
he had brought forward in 1864. He
hoped, however, that the reply of the
right hon. Gentleman would relieve him
from the necessity of doing so, for a matter
80 important could be more satisfactorily
dealt with by Government than by a pri-
vate Member.
Mb. WALPOLE : I have referred to
the Bills of 1865 and 1866, and have found
that, although they both have the same
object, they contain very different provi-
sions. The subject is certainly an im-
portant one, but the importance of the
object sought to be attained depended
mainly upon the provisions to be compre-
hended in the Bill. Nobody can doubt that
not a more careful person than my hon. and
learned Friend the late Attorney General
could have been engaged in preparing such
a measure as this, and therefore I shall
not be inclined to doubt any provisions
which he may have inserted in the Bill.
At the same time, there are provisions in
the Bill of last year which I should like
to consider with the present Attorney Ge-
neral before introducing another measure
this year. The^probability is, that after a
consultation with my learned Friend, I shall
be prepared to introduce a Bill on the sub-
ject, having the same object in view as the
former Bills, though, perhaps, with not
exactly the same provisions.
Mb. HABFIKLD urged the propriety
of speedy legislation, as the principle of
the Bills presented on the subject had re-
ceived the general assent of both Houses.
Motion agreed to : House at rising to
adjourn till Monday next.
SuppLx— Order for Committee read.
BUSINESS OF TQE HOUSE.
Qussnoir.
Mb. GLADSTONE : Perhaps the right
hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer will be good enough to give
some information to the House on a matter
of considerable importance. What will be
the course of business on Monday, and
what Orders he proposes to place on the
paper in order that he may be able to open
the important subject of which he has
given notice?
Thb chancellor of tub EXCHE-
QTJEE : I intend to put on the paper the
subject which I mentioned I should bring
forward the first on Monday nexfr— namely,
to consider the paragraph in the Queen's
Speech with regard to the Bopresentation
of the People. I hope the House will not
press me to go into detail now as to the
Motion I propose to make, as such a course
might lead, perhaps, to misconception and
misapprehension of the intentions of Her
Majesty's Government. I trust that the
House will excuse me doing so at the pre-
sent time. I shall therefore confine myself
to saying that the first Order of the Day
for Monday will be one in effect to caU
the attention of the House to the subject
to which I have referred, which is men-
tioned in the Queen's Speech. I shall
then enter fully and fairly into the exposi-
tion of the subject and the proposals of
Her Majesty's Government.
SUPPLY.
Committee on Motion, ''That a Supply
be granted to Her Majesty."
Queen's Speech referred .'—Motion con-
sidered,
(In the Committee.)
Queen's Speech read.
Mesolved, " That a Supply be granted to
Her Majesty."
Eesolution to be reported upon Monday
next
METROPOLITAN POOR BILL.
LEATB. FIBST BBADINO.
Mb. GATHORNE HARDY, in moving
for leave to introduce a Bill for the estab-
lishment in the Metropolis of Asylums
for the Sick, Insane, and other classes of
the Poor, and of Dispensaries ; and for the
distribution over the Metropolis of por-
tions of the charge for Poor Relief ; and
for other purposes relating to Poor Relief
in the Metropolis, said : In bringing before
the House Uie subject of which I have
given notice, I shall endeavour to be as
brief as possible in my explanation of the
provisions of the Bill which I shall have
to submit to the House. At the same
time, I trust that the House, admitting the
great importance of the subject, will allow
me to make those remarks which are ne-
cessary, in order that they may have
fully before them the scheme which I
am about to propose for the management
of the poor in the metropolis. It is
not my intention, on this occasion, to go
much into the past. I think we had
much better avoid discussions which can
lead to no good result with respect to
151
XdropoMan
(COMMONS)
Po0t B%a.
16S
what has been done on former oocasions.
But it will be necessary to some extent
to refer to the past history of what has
taken place in respect to the management
of the metropolitan poor, in order to ex-
plain the reasons why I have felt it to be my
doty to snbmit this question to the conside-
ration of the House. I will not go very
far back in my retrospect. A Committee sat
upon the question of Poor Belief, not only
as it affected the metropolis, but England
generally. It began its inquiries in 1 861»
and reported in 1864. Now, it is a re-
markable thing — Tory remarkable, it ap-
pears to me when I look upon what has
occurred since — that uothing was brought
before that Committee tending to implicate
the management of the workhouses in the
metropolis in the charges which subse-
quently created so much excitement not
only in London, but in the country also.
Nothing was brought before that Commit-
tee ten^ng to show that the metropolitan
workhouses in their management presented
features of a disadvantageous character as
compared with those in the country gene-
rally. On the contrary, there was every
reason to suppose that those workhouses
were properly managed, and that the
treatment of the poor inmates did not de-
.mand intervention. Of course, then, the
Report of that Committee did not touch
upon the circumstances that have since
been disclosed, inasmuch as there was no-
thing pressed upon the Committee at all
relating to them ; indeed, they rather ex-
pressed their satisfaction with the medical
treatment of the poor generally, and said,
I think, that it required no alteration, and
that nothing further was necessary to bo
done in order to bring the medical treat-
ment of the poor generally into a more
satisfactory state. They said, however,
that not only in the metropolis, but
throughout the country, the central autho-
rity of the Poor Law Board ought to be
confirmed, and, if possible, strengthened,
and that it might be done, in one way,
by lengthening the term for which the
Commission was appointed. They went
on further to say that it was specially
required that for classification in work-
liouses — and that without reference to the
metropolis only — more powers should be
given to the Central Board —
" It appears to the Committee that the union
workhouae is inioffloient for the proper clatsiflca-
tion of the inmates, and ihej consider it desirable
that greater power should be given to the Central
Board than what the/ now possess, to require the
Mr. Oathome JSIgrdjf
guardians to make adequate arrangement Ibr
maintaining such olassifloaiion in the work*
booses."
In 1864, then, we had arrived at this
point. After a long and elaborate inquiry,
conducted by highly-qualified judges of
the Poor Law, the conclusion was arrived
at that the Central Board was without suf-
ficient authority for the classification of
the poor, and generally for the proper
administration of the poor relief through-
out the country. Towards the end of
1864, the case of Timothy Daly occurred
in the Uolbom Workhouse; it was the
first of those coses which so much at-
tracted the attention of the country; it
was followed, by that of Gibson in the
workhouse of St. Giles, in 1865. In
April of the same year, a letter written by
one of the nurses at the Rotherhithe
Workhouse called attention to a very
painful state of circumstances there ; and
finally, in 1866, the same nurse called
attention to the state of the Strand Work-
house, where she had been lately engaged
as a nurse. Inquiries took place with
reference to Daly and Gibson's cases, and
in 1865 the Rotherhithe guardians in-
quired into the statements made by that
nurse. Ko action was then taken by the
Poor Law Board on the eiridence taken
by those guardians; but in 1866, upon
the requisition of the Workhouse In-
firmary Association, official inquiries were
made respecting the condition of the sick
in the Strand, Rotherhithe, and Padding-
ton Workhouses by inspectors, whose re-
ports were exceedingly adrerse to the
management of the sick in these work-
houses and caused a great sensation
throughout the country-F-perhaps a greater
sensation than was justified oy all the
circumstances. When one considers that
in the metropolis there are thirty-nine
workhouses, containing a population of
from 25,000 to 30,000 persons, it would
not strike one as remarkable that there
should haTO been four cases in which great
hardship and wrong had been inflicted.
No doubt many things were rerealed which
allowed that there was necessity for in-
terference, but these particular cases, each
seen in varied shapes, as it were, in a
kaleidoscope, through the comments of
the press, caused a sensation, which if
not unreasonable or unnatural, was per-
haps disproportioned to the circumstances
under which they occurred, and blame
was imputed to the guardians, not only of
the workhouses in question, but of the
153
Metropolitan
{7£BBT7ART 8, 1867]
Poor Sin.
154
workhouses of the metropolis generally.
Every one must admit that the office of a
gnardian is one of great difficulty and deli-
cacy. He has to stand hetween the poor
and the ratepayers ; he is continually
pressed on one side and the other; and
in London he is watched with excessive
scrutiny by the press, particularly after
the occurrence of cases like those named ;
through these discussions he becomes more
fearfiU of acting on his own responsibility,
and there is a vacillation in his movements
which there would not have been if he
was left more alone. At the same time,
I will not say it is not advantageous that
there should be the fullest scrutiny into
every transaction of the kind referred to,
and that the fullest publicity should be
giTen to all the circumstances connected
with institutions which so materially affect
the welfare of the poor and the interests of
the ratepayers, both of the metropolis and
the country generally. During 1865 and
1866, whilst these things were going on,
a well-conducted newspaper, ITie Zaneet,
thought proper to employ, at its own ex-
pense, certain medical men, who made full
inquiry into the administration of the sick
departments of the metropolitan work-
houses. I should be the last person to com-
plain of the mode and manner in which that
inquiry was conducted, it being conducted
in a tone and spirit very different from
that which characterized the comments
of some other portions of the press.
On the whole, The Lancet founded its ani-
madversions on facts and incidents that
really occurred, and it did not indulge in
mere sensational writing as some other pa-
pers did. The articles in I%e Lancet na*
turally made a great impression, because
they called attention to the facts that the
constraction of the sick wards in the work-
houses was bad in itself; that in the
main they were overcrowded; that the
nursing was bad and wholly iuadequate ;
the ventilation in almost every respect was
defective ; and that the furniture, applian-
ces, clothing, and cooking arrangements
were bad, and not at all appropriate to
the wants of the sick. In May, 1865,
in consequence of the prominence which
the subject of nursing had acquired, a
circular was sent out by my right hon.
Fredeeessor, calling the attention of the
metropolitan guardians to the inadequacy
of the staffs, and calling upon them to
appoint at least one paid nurse to super-
intend each sick wara, and also to ap-
point paid assistant nurses who might wut
with more responsibility on the patients.
Subsequently, a full investigation into the
state of the sick wards was undertaken by
the Poor Law Board itself, through its
medical officer and inspector. Dr. Edward
Smith, and Mr. Famsdl, inspector of the
metropolitan district; and their inquiry
did not terminate until just before the
change of Government which took place
last year. Their Eeports were, however,
in the hands of mv Predecessor, but no
action had been taken upon them up to
the time that I succeeded to the office
I now hold. Hon. Members who take an
interest in this subject will find that Mr.
Farnall's Beport is based upon one suppo-
sition, and Dr. Edward Smith's upon ano-
ther. Mr. Famall's Eeport is based upon
what he called the requirements of medical
science — namely, that certain medical men
of the greatest eminence urged that 1,000
feet cubical space was required for each
inmate of a sick ward ; whilst, on the other
hand. Dr. Edward Smith's Beport was
based on the understanding that the re-
quirements of the Poor Law Board was
what he had to see to. It appeared that
up to this time 500 feet cubic space was
considered sufficient for a sick ward, and
he thought it was his duty to inquire how
it had worked. Both, however, came to
the conclusion that the workhouse infir-
maries are overcrowded, that the nursing
is defective, that the appliances are also de-
fective, that the ventilation is insufficient^
and that great reform is needed in the
sick wards of the workhouse infirmaries.
That was the state of things when I had
the honour to be appointed to the office
which I now hold. At that time my at-
tention was called in this House to those
cases to which I have referred, and others,
in which it was said that great negligence,
cruelty, and hardship had occurred to
individuals in these workhouses, and I
then said it would be my first duty to en-
deavour to mitigate, with the powers I
possessed, the evils which then existed.
I stated, at the same time, that I felt that
the time must come when I must ask the
House for powers to provide permanent
remedies for evils which without I could
only temporarily moderate. It has been
asked in many quarters why I did not put
in force the compulsory powers that be-
long to the Poor Law Board. In my opi-
nion there has not yet arisen occasion to
put them in force, because nearly every-
tUng I have asked has been done, or is
in the course of being donoi and it would
155
MeiropoUtan
(COlCtfONS}
Poor BiU.
156
have been difflcnlt, if not impossible, to have
proceeded by mandamui in the case of me-
dical officerst legal and technical questions
and questions of contract would undoubt-
edly have been raised. No doubt the Poor
Law Board possesses the power to enforce
the appointment of officers, but the power
must be exercised carefully, and strictly
within the limits of the law ; and I thought
that, as the time was approaching when I
could ask the House for further powers,
it would be unwise and imprudent to in-
Tolve myself in a collision in which I
might get the worst of it, and which might
give rise to a feeling that I had used
powers I did not possess, or that I had
used legal powers unnecessarily. Besides,
on the whole, the guardians were acting
in a fair spirit; they were adopting the
suggestions that were made to them, and
were endeavouring to carry them out. At
the same time, I am bound to say that the
two inspectors who then had charge of the
metropolitan district, Mr. Corbett and Dr.
Markham, discharged their duties in the
most indefatigable manner, and were de-
serving of every praise. They visited the
workhouses by night and by day, and
consulted the guardians, endeavouring by
firmness and conciliation to obtain the re-
medies that Wijuld mitigate the evils which
had been justly complained of, and simul-
taneously procuring information to enable
me to propose legislation on this very im-
portant subject. I may be permitted to
call attention to the letter of Mr. Ernest
Hart which appeared in one of the daily
gapers, because he is a gentleman who
as devoted hb attention to the reform of
our workhouses, and particularly the work-
house infirmaries. I am not going to put
forward anything that I may have done
other than to say that I have endeavoured
to do my best ; but I will take it on Mr.
Hart's admission that much has been ef-
fected already in the way of temporary
remedies — ventilation has been improved,
paid nurses have been provided, more
medical officers have been provided, and
the furniture and other appliances required
for the sick have been very much improved.
Having made these preliminary remarks,
I come to the permanent arrangements
proposed for the metropolitan workhouses.
The inquiries of Dr. Markham, a skilled
physician, well acquainted with hospital
treatment and the proper working of in-
firmaries, have been continually directed
to the state of the workhouse infirmaries
in the metropolitan district and their re-
Mr. Oathorm Sardg
quirements, and from his reports and other
information, I came to the conclusion that
there was nothing absolutely definite on
the vexed question of fioor and cubical
space. I determined, therefore, to call
in persons who were qualified to give
a distinct opinion on the subject, in o^er
that when I came before the House I
might not have to aigue on disputed
theories; and I am sure the House wiU
not say that in consulting the gentlemen
I did, gentlemen whose attention had beeu
specially called to the London Infirmariea,
I did so with the view of confirming any
preconceived notions of my own, especially
as one gentleman who was applied to, but
could not act, was well known to be
strongly in favour of the largest amount of
cubical space. That was Dr. Parkes. I ap-
plied to Sir Thomas Watson, President of
the College of Physicians, to whom I can-
not sufficiently express my gratitude for
the zeal and ability with which he applied
himself to this subject, as though it were
the only one before him. There was also
Dr. Acland, of Oxford, whose only object
was for the public good, ofiered to come
up and take part in the Committee, to-
gether with Dr. Sibson, Mr. Charles
Hawkins, Mr. T. Holmes, Captain Oalton,
Dr. Bandall, Dr. Smith, Dr. Markham,
and Mr. Corbett. They visited the work-
houses by day and by night — they tested
the atmosphere of the sick wards in the
different workhouse infirmaries,- and thus
obtained data upon which they have
founded their conclusions, and I cannot
but call attention to the fairness of the
mode in which they have dealt with the
question. They did not treat the question
simply as one of theory, but went fully
into the subject, ascertaining the kind of
diseases prevalent in the workhouse infir-
maries, and with the knowledge that there
would be a removal of certain classes of sick
—for example, small-pox and fever patients
— from those infirmaries altogether, whose
absence would, of course, make a material
difference in the calculation. One point is
remarkable enough. It is that however
overcrowded these infirmaries may be, none
of those diseases appear there which are
known to result from overcrowding. There
are no hospital diseases, and it has attract-
ed attention abroad as well as at home
how very few are the cases of puerperal
fever, which so often decimate lying-in
hospitals, and in France, I believe, cause
death to an extent of which we have no
conception. Even in our own lying-in
167
UHropolitan
{FebotahtS, 1867}
PoorSiTl.
158
hospitals these cases oocar to a much larger
extent than in the metropolitan work-
houses. I will now read a few sentences
which form the practical groundwork of
the Beport—
** The problem to be solred really is wbai is
the amount of floor and eubieal tpaoe which shall
not be too little on the one hand, nor more than
enough on the other— ^not too little for the hMlth
and comfort of the panper inmates, sick or well,
not too mneh for the means of the humblest rate*
payer. This practical aspect of the question the
Committee bare deemed it their duty to keep
steadily in Tiew, always with an inclination, if the
balance cannot be strictly adjusted, towards the
side of the sick and poor. It is fit that these
houses be made safe, decent, and commodious ; it
is neither necessary nor expedient that they be
made luTiting."
Upon that basis Sir Thomas Watson and
the gentlemen associated with him arrived
at their principal conclnsionsi Before call-
ing attention to those conclusions, I will re-
fer for a moment to the enormous changes
which have taken place in the metropo*
litan workhouses. They were origioally
built at an enormous cost, and I find that
since 1834 — I do not know what they
had cost up to that time — upwards of
£1,000,000 has been spent upon them.
When they were built it was not con-
templated that they should become mere
asylums for the aged, the sick, and the
infirm; but these are now the main
occupants of the workhouses, and the able-
bodied are practically almost unknown.
Assuming that the able-bodied are only
those under sixty — an unreasonable period,
perhaps as many men are quite able-
bodied when beyond that age — it appears
that there are only 889 able-bodied
men in the London workhouses, and of
women about 2,000. Besides this, it must
be remembered that at the time when
this inquiry was instituted, great changes
had arisen in the various theories formerly
entertained upon these matters. Former
Beporta and recommendations made show
that a very much smaller space was
thought requisite for the sick than is now
almost universally looked upon as desirable.
Thus the condition of things is very
different from that existing when these
workhouses were designed. They were
designed as workhouses under the new
Poor Law .to deter able-bodied persons
from going into them; it is found that
they do act, in a great degree, as a check
in this way; but now they are places
chiefly for the sick and aged poor, the
T^ persons whom the count^ would
wish to see well cared for. Then, the
Poor Law Board itself does not seem
to have been always of the same opi-
nion respecting the cubical space and the
nursing. Now the cry throughout the
country and the metropolis is that you
must have as many paid nurses as you can
get ; but in a Return moved for by the
Earl of Carnarvon in the other House,
occurs this letter, dated the Uth of Feb-
ruary, 1850, in which the Poor Law
Board urge the guardians at Croydon not
to appoint too many paid nurses —
" Throe at least of the paid servants in this
hospital must be discontinued. In the greater
number of country unions there is no paid nurse,
and in none it is beUe?ed more than one. In
pronouncing upon this point the Poor Law Board
attach more weight to the results of experience
than to the opinion of the medical officer of the
Croydon Workhouse, though supported by that of
three of his professional friends. If, for instance,
the infirmary of the Wandsworth and Clapham
anion workhouse can be, as it is, perfectly well
managed under one paid nurse, why should the
medical officers say that five paid nurses are
required in the much smaller wflrmary of the
Croydon Workhouse."
I only quote that in order to show that we
can only act up to the lights we have, and
that some fifteen or sixteen years ago
medical men and the Poor Law Board itself
believed there was much less necessity for
greater space, paid nurses, and other ap-
pliances than is now thought requisite.
We should not, therefore, attack our pre-
decessors unnecessarily upon this subject,
because we should probably have acted
at that time just as they did. Tcome now
to the conclusions of the Committee. They
say, respecting the classes of sick poor of
whom I have spoken —
" The Committee, after full and anxious consi-
deration of the subject, haTc recommended that a
space of not less tluui 850 cubic feet on an average,
with six feet across the beds, should be provided
for each sick inmate ; of not less than 1,200 feet
for each 'offensive case' in the 'separation'
wards ; the infirm wards should have at least 500
feet with day room ; the surgical wards, 800 ; and
the lying-in-wards, 1,200 ; for general wards, SOO
would M sufficient ; but for fever and small- pox
wards, 2,000, and that they should be removed to
separate hospitals.*'
But the great point upon which they dwell,
and upon which the whole question turns,
is ventilation. It is stated, upon author-
ity which I cannot doubt, that, whatever^
amount of space you may have, if the ven-*
tilation be not good, all your expense and
trouble are thrown away, and that it is idle
to increase the space unless you improve
159
IfetropolUan
ICOUHONS)
Poor Bin.
160
the ventilation. Accordingly^, the Commit*
tee gave great attention to this subject, and
to the best mode of insuring proper ventila-
tion. The appendices to me Report are
not yet perfect ; but I hope in the course
of this week, or the beginning of the week
after, to lav before the House all the data
upon which these gentlemen have pro-
ceeded. The Uouse will find them worthy
of attention, and they show that you can-
not by merely adding to space overcome
the difficulty of obtaining fresh air. Tou
must not give air to the patients cold or
in draughts, because to these old people
draughts would be more dangerous than
overcrowding and heat ; and if you give
them warm air, you must have some artifi-
cial system by which the air is brought
into proper condition so as to be adapted
to their weak state. In one of the great
hospitals in France— the Lariboisiere —
2,000 cubic feet are allowed for every
inmate, and yet from its defective ventila-
tion it is said 1)y Dr. Bristowe and Mr.
Holmes, in their iReport on Hospitals, to
be worse than the old infirmary at Leeds.
This space being then required by the
Committee, and accepted by me as the
data on which I am bound to proceed, I
have made up my mind to act on these con-
clusions, and on them I shall proceed to
legislate ; and then the question arises, how
is the space to be obtained ? We have in
the metropolitan workhouses about 26,240
persons. That excludes the inmates of
the Richmond and Croydon Workhouses,
which are not properly comprised within
the metropolitan district, though within
the inspecting powers of the metropolitan
inspectors. There are temporarily dis-
abled, 7,046; old and infirm, 13,685; able-
bodied, 2,899; children above two years
of age, 2,150; infants, 1,015. Out of
the whole of these, 1,977 are imbeciles or
lunatics, and form a separate and distinct
class. Now, there is a very remarkable
thing in these workhouses, which shows
to their credit — I refer to the great
age to which people may live in them.
There have been as inmates for the period
of one year and upwards persons above
the age of 70 to the extent of 4,783 ; from
75 to 80, 3,812; from 80 to 90, 903.
Those who have been fix>m five to ten
years inmates number 1,352, and those
above ten years, 857. I saw in one of
the workhouses, in the City of London
union, what Sir Oeorge Ijewis would
have told us was an impossibility —
an old man of 100 years of age. I
Mr. CMhwrm Sarif
believe this is a well-authenticated case,
and judging from appearances he was
likely to live for some time. Well, the
question is, how am I to get room for all
the sick poor of the metropolis ? In the
first place, I propose that the lunatics aud
imbeciles shall be removed and placed in
separate establishments; then that the
children above two years of age shall go to
separate schools, and having done that,
I fear I shall find myself still with a
considerable deficiency of space under the
new circumstances. Wo have to provide
for 34,000 persons, including children.
How is that to be done ? It must be done
by additional buildings. I propose to do
it in accordance with the original inten-
tion of those who passed the Poor Law Act.
So long ago as before the formation of the
Gilbert Unions, a Resolution of the House
was passed which shows what was in the
mind of the House at that time ; it was
in favour of the establishment of
"A proper hoipital, separate workhooie, and
house of oorreoUon in each district, as tlie most
easy and effeotive method of relieving the impo-
tent, employing the industrious, and reforming the
Ticlous poor,"
and it was evidentiy not supposed that
the aged and infirm would be brought
in who were principally receiving out-
door relief at that time. In 1834,
what did the Commissioners say ? Their
intentions are given by Mr. Edwin
Chadwick in a late number of Fraser'a
Magazine^ where he says they never in-
tended to have large workhouses, but
separate ones for separate classes ; but in
carrying out their intention they seem
to have come to a different conclusion;
for, so far as I can see, no step was
taken in that direction by the Commis-
sioners at that time, and I suppose that
Mr. Chadwick must have been overruled,
and that an entirely different scheme was
adopted. In their Report we find it recom-
mended that the Central Board
" Should be empowered to eause any number
of parishes to be inoorporated for the purpose of
workhouse management, aud for providing new
workhouses where necessary, and to assign to
those workhouses separate classes of poor. That
the requisite classification and superintendonoo
maj be better obtained in separate buildings than
under one roof. Each class might thus reoeivo
appropriate treatment ; the old might enjoy their
indulgencies without torment from the boisterous,
the children be educated, and the able-bodied sub-
jected to such oourses of laboor as will repel the
indolent or vioious."
That principle was, in &ct| carried out in
ui
MriropoKUm
{FXBRUABT 8, 1867)
Poor Sill.
163
Ob Bntriet Sehools Aot, the 7 ft 8 FM.
e. 101, and I am taking no new step now in
vlutt I proposey for in 1841 Earl BaBBell,
tiien Lord John Boflselly together with
Mr. Baring and Mr. Lahoachere, brought
in a Bill, in which it was proTided that
parities or unions might have separate
buildings for the insane and infirm poor,
SB wdl as separate schools for children.
My main object is to classify the different
iofliaies of workhonses, and I hope to do
thst, in the first instance, by building such
la establishment or estatdishments as will
be necessary for 2,000 lunatics and imbe-
eiles. 1 find that my Tiew on this subject
Is supported by the Lunacy Commissioners
thenselTes; for in 1859 they published
s supplement entirely devoted to this
(pHstion of removing the lunatics and
imbeciles from the workhouses. I will,
for a moment, oall the attention of the
House to a few short passages. After
pointing oat the evils attendant on the
detentiim of lunatics in workhouses, they
" To remedy many of the evfls sdrsiied to
voald, in oar o^ion, be iropneiioable, lo long
u ioMiie peiients are detained in workhoiues,
vbetber mixed with other inmatee, or plaeed in
disiioet wards. The oonstmotion and manage-
■oitof workhoiieefl present insnnnountable ob«
staeios to the proper treatment of the disease of
insiiutj ; and, therefore, the removal of the
majority of the patients and the adoption of strin*
fentmeasnres to prerent the admission of others
ia?e beoome absolntely neoesiary. ... To
meare for the insane poor now improperly re-
tained in workhonses due eare and treatment
ebswhere, it will be necessary to add greatly to
the existing aeoomroodation in county and borough
asylums. Many of these are already upon so
large a scale as not to admit of the necessary
extension, whilo some are of a sisa much beyond
tbat which is ccwspatible with their efficient work-
i&g. After fnll consideration of the subject in
sU its bearings, we are of opinion that the best
mode of malung provision for the insane poor who
cssnot be received into the present asylums will
be ^ the erection of inexpenstre buildings adapted
kf the reaidettoe of idiotic, chronic, and harmless
patients, in direct connection with, or at a conve-
aicBt distance from, the existing institutions.
Tbese auxiliary asylums, which should be under
the management of the present visiting justices,
wcuM be intermediate between onion workhouses
sad the prinoipal cnratire asylums. The cost of
building need not, in general, much exceed one-
balf of that incurred in the erection of ordinary
tsflsms ; and the establishment of officers and
sttsndaats wonld be npon a smaller and more
seoMHDieal scale than those required in the
principal asylnms. Without the adoption of mea-
ivres soch as we have suggested no eflRsctual
rmedy can, in oar opinion, be fbnnd for the
pisseni ofUa which so nrgeatly press for oor-
YOL, CJ^XXXy. [Tanu) seues.]
I might qnote at greater length ; bnt those
who are interested will find the whole
Beport worth pemsal. I have spoken
to one of the Commissioners, who tells
me that it not nnfincqaently happens that
persons who might be easily onred if
put at once nnder medical treatment,
are after a few days in a workhouse
rendered absolutely incurable. I am sure
that an evil of the kind to which I
now refer is one to which this House
will, if it be possible, apply a remedy.
The next class to be removed is that of
persons suffering from fever and small-pox.
At present the great majority of those
cases are sent to the hospitals specially de-
voted to the cure of these diseases ; but it
often happens that these hospitals are full,
and I am bound to say that it is a matter
of real necessity to provide some directly
under Poor Law management. I would
therefore propose to take or hire such build-
ings as will accommodate from 700 to 800
of those patients. I hope and believe that
the time will come when by proper atten*
tion to the use of those remedies which
science has discovered— vaocination on the
one hand, and good sanitary arrangements
on the oUier — we may be able to dispense
with those hospitals almost entirely. We
cannot, howerer, dd so at present ; and it
is a most msterial thing to do for the
people themselves, and for others in the
workhouse, that to avoid risk and spread-
ing the disease they should be removed.
With respect to the children, almost all
the metropolitan unions and parishes have
district or separate schools. There are
six instances in which we shall, no doubt,
find no difSculty in obtaining their sanction
— though we shall not require it — that
the children shall be removed to separate
schools like those which the inspectors
have certified as being carried on on a
most admirable system. In them the
children are trained not only in the or-
dinary walks of industry, but the instru-
mental bands of some of our regiments
are drawn from these schools. I am told
that almost the whole band of one of our
regiments came from the Btepney School.
I have not been there, but am told that it
is a most interestiDg sight to witness the
training of the children. Now, am I to
give up the existing workhouses ? I think
not I believe, from the Beports made,
that there are twenty-four of the present
workhouses which may be easily and satis-
factorily adapted for aU classes of poor,
except those which I havo before deooribed.
Q
/
163
Metropoliian
(COMMONS)
PwrBtV.
164
There is one thing, however, which we
mnst peremptorily insist on — - nametyi
the treatment of the sick in the infirmaries
heing oondnoted on an entirely separate
system; because the evils complained of
have mainly arisen firom the workhouse
management, which must to a great de-
gree bis of a deterrent character, having
been applied to tiie sick, who are not
proper objects for such a svstem. That
is one thug which I should inrist upon
as an absolute condition. I propose, there-
fore, tiiat power shall be given to combine
such districts as the Poor Law Board may
think proper— whether parishes and pa-
rishes, unions and unions, or unions and
parishes — under a more complete system
of inspection and control, and to inte-
rest in the conduct of tiiose establish-
ments persons who might be inclined
to give them their attention. I propose
that we should be able to appoint nomi-
nees on the Boards of Guardians, providing
they never exceed one-third of tiie whole
body, and are rated at not less ttian £100
a year. These nominees would, I hope,
be persons taking a deep interest in the
management of the establishments, and
they would exercise a closer supervision
than can be exercised by an inspector,
whose visitation can only take place a
certain number of times in a year. This
proposal is, I am aware, a novel one, and
will probably raise some objectors; but the
House will bear in mind that in other
parts of the country justices of the peace,
acting practically as the largest ratepayers
in the union, have seats at the Board. I
propose that gentlemen residing in the
several districts, and who are justices
of the poaoe, though not perhaps filling
thai office in a metropditan county,
should be eligible to be placed upon
these B|pards, the nominee portioui how-
ever, never exceeding one-third of the
whole. I know I shall be asked, from
what I have seen in the press, and what
has been said at public meetings, in re-
spect to a plan that has been spoken of for
workhouse and infirmary alteration, " Why
do you not have six or seven large hos*
pitals, each containing 1,000 inmates, and
conducted upon the principle of hospitals
pure and simple ? " Now, there are se-
veral reasons why I do not propose this.
In the first place, it would involve great
expense and render useless the exiting
workhouses. Secondly, there is the ob-
jection whieh has been pointed out by
many eminent medical meui that whereas
in our smaller establishments, notwith-
standing all their defects, gangrene, eiy«
sipelas, and puerperal fever do not intni^Ie,
in the large hospitals those diseases not
only intrude, but are often permanently
fixed there. Another objection is that
these establishments ought to be readily
accessible to the people of the district;
because the people admitted into them are
firequently in a transition state, and per-
sons of advanced age are in the infirmary
to-day and out to-morrow, in this week
and out the next, and to remove them to
and from a distant hospital would be a
much more prejudicial course than to
transfer them to an hospital near at
hand, and capable, under proper discipline,
of being as well conducted as the larger
establii^ments. I hope under the now
system to ensure, in cases where there are
a certain number of sick, resident medical
officers, in all cases separate and inde-
pendent matrons, and paid nurses. But
I know that we cannot by pajring get
trained nurses. Miss Nightingale says no
such thing exists as a body of trained nurses
at present : we most train them. Well, if
we cannot get them, we must do the next
best thing — ^we must use the best material
available — we must pay persons respon-
sible to us, and in that way having got the
best we can, by having these separate es-
tablishments under suitable matrons, we
may probably educate nurses for our needs*
I believe tnat suitable persons could in
many cases be found in the workhouses
who would gladly seize the opportunity of
earning a good livelihood. I believe also
in the schools young persons might be
trained to nursing, and thus provided with
means of earning a living in their future
life, while they conferred a great benefit
upon the class from which they came.
This, of course, would be a work of time ;
and, after all, the large hospitals would
experience the same difficulty. I will here
call the attention of the House to a very
curious circumstance which is referred to
in the last Beport of the Poor Law Board.
In Liverpool a gentleman, to his honour
be it said, gave £3,000 to be divided into
three sums of £1,000 a year to obtain for
the Liverpool Workhouse trained and ex-
perienced nurses. Twelve were appointed
on the recommendation of Miss Nightin-
gale, and under them were eighty others.
There was a miraculous change in the
management of the workhouse infirmary.
In the appearance of it it seemed that
everything was beinj; done on an im?
165
MHropdlitan
{PEBRtriBY 8, 1867}
Poor Bill.
I6(f
proved system. But what did the intelli-
gent master of the House report ? For
&e first ten months — and I agree with
him that that time is too short to give
any saffleient proof of the working of the
system — for flie first ten months after the
nurses oame, he reported the disoharges
had been fewer and the deaths more fre-
quent than under the old system. I con-
ges that did to some extent dishearten
me, and I have not at present any farther
return on the subject, tiiough I have
tried to obtain it. I am bound to say
that Miss Nightingale was not quite
satisfied with the administration of that
department, although any one who visits
the liTerpool Workhouse will see that it
sets a pattern which is well worthy of being
followed by similar establishments. I have
another proposal to make with the view
of securing more frequent visitation. It
has been represented to me that there
are no medical schools in which the treat-
ment of chronic diseases can be studied ;
and I therefore propose that the Poor Law
Board should have power to establish such
schools, or more properly places of instruc-
tion, in connection with these hospitals, be-
cause the attendance of medical practition-
ers and tiieir pupils would amount to an in-
spection of the most efficacious kind. Now,
I think I have gone through the different
classes that I propose to deal with in work-
houses, and I ask, can nothing be done to
prevent so many sick persons coming into
the ho^itals ? I have had inquiries made
on that subject, and I am sure that the
right hon. Gentleman opposite will join
me in admitting the debt which is owing
to an officer of the Poor Law Board, Mr.
Lambert, for the enormous assistenee he
gave them in the arrangement of stetistics
last year, and I have to thank him for the
earnest and laborious assistenee which he
has afforded me in connection with the
changes I propose. Though he had well
earned a complete rest after having devoted
himself to the preparation of the elaborate
Betnms that were laid before Parliament,
I adsed him, on his teking his holiday, if
he would go to Ireland and make inqui-
ries as to the administration of the dis-
pensary system there. He did so, and
has made a Beport, which I have laid
upon the teble ; and on that I propose to
found a system which I believe calcu-
lated to £minish the amount of serious
rickness among the poor. Half the pau-
perism of this country begins in sick-
ness. \ thinly it (^ ifUNit imsatidiMtofy
system that such cases as this should
occur constently: — A child goes to the
district medical officer, says some one at
home is ill, and describes the symptoms.
Medicine is sent with the child, without
the medical officer having visited the pa«
tient. It may do harm, or it may do good ;
but I think tiie system contrary to common
sense. Cases have come before me where
medicine is continued to be sent frequently
while the medical officer has not seen or
seldom seen the patient. Not long ago a
case occurred in the metropolis of this
kind : — ^A daughter came to the medical
officer, described pains, and medicine was
sent to the mother ; she died, and it was
found she was suffering from quite a dif-
ferent complaint to that to which the
medicine was intended to cure. I know
of a workhouse in the North of England-^
I will not mention it — where they have
what they call house medicine placed in a
pauper's hands, and whoever wants it
applies and gete it, and the demand seems
good, for though the workhouse is a small
one, the inmates consume a gallon a week*
The medical officer says it does them no
harm ; the master says it has a great effect.
The absence of disastrous 'consequences
from medicines thiis sent upon mere guess
seems to prove that they must be at
least harmless; but more is required.
Now, to remedy this loose system, I pro-
pose that dispensaries be esteblished in
different parte of the metropolis, and that
in all cases the medical men should write
a prescription. It may be said that this is a
cumbersome system ; but it is carried out
in Paris and in Ireland, where it answers
exceedingly well, and prevente a great
deal of sickness which otherwise would
have to be treated in the hospitals. Mr.
Lambert went to inquire into the matter.
I do not propose to read at length Ids re-
port; but if I read extracte from ii it will
be for the advantege of the House, for I
am unable to give better reasons for this
enactment than he has given. Dr. Bogers,
in his evidence before the Belief Commit-
tee, suggested that the authorities should
find the drugs, and not the medical offi-
cers. I propose to adopt that course ; the
drugs are to be found. I cannot help
thinking that will remove from the medi-
cal man a great temptetion. We shall
secure good drugs ; and when I come to
speak of the mode of paying for them the
House will see that the plan we propose
will, or at least ought to, obtain for us
the best drugs possible. Tbo advantages
167
Metropolitan
(COMMONS)
Poor Bat.
les
of fUs systeni are stated by Mr. Lambert
in belter winrda than I myself oould
employ—
** It innires Ibr the deititate liek poor a sniB-
oient rappljT of all neoessar j and proper medioine
luid medioal applianoei. It eoablei thoae who
are not oonflned within doors to obtain medioal
adyioe at fixed hours, and within a conyenient dis-
tanee from their homes. It insures for those who
are nnable to go ont medical attendance, and en-
ables them to obtain their medicines promptly.
It affords facilities for yaocination, as well as for
medical relief generally^ bj establishing fixed
plaees at which it is well known that the medical
ofilcers most attencT at stated hours."
The next, I think a most important
matter, which some of my hon. Friends
firom Ireland will no doubt be able to con-
firm ; it is that nothing so mach tended to
check the recent outbreak of cholera in
Ireland as the power of expansion which
there is in the dispensary system. Mr.
Lambert goes on to say —
" ItproTides an organisation always ready, and
capable of expansion if necessary, to meet any
outbreak of epidemic disease with promptness ;
while, at the same time, it is calculated to preyent
disease becoming epidemic by early treatment,
and by procuring the adoption of precautionanr
measures in any locality which may be threatened.
These benefits haye recently been largely realised
in Ireland in reference to cholera."
I think it a most important point that
when a person is removed from outdoor to
indoor i^ef his prescriptions should go
with him ; so that the medical man in
charge of the case may have the oppor-
tunity of seeing what the oourse of treat-
ment has been—
" By preserying a record of the medical treat-
ment in eyery case it furnishes a test of both the
skUl and attention of the medical oiBoer. It pre-
Tents that conflict between interest and dotr
which must so often arise in the mind of the medi-
cal ofllcer when he himself is required to proyide
medicines ont of his salary."
I think the reasons I have just read are
reasons of great foroe and weight. In
attempting to give effect to tiiem it wiU*
of course, be necessary that the Poor Law
Board should have power to deal with all
contracts entered into with existing medi-
cal officers; because I am sure the House, in
a proceeding of this kind, would wish to see
all those who have hitherto given their
aervioes dealt with justly and honourably.
To another provision which it will be ne-
cessary to make in this Bill the attention of
the House was called by the Beport of the
Committee which sat firom 1861 to 1864,
and that is as to doing away, as far as prac-
ticable, with Local Acta in the metropolis.
At preaent tbete are tea places .under Local
Jfr* Oathomo ffardf -^ ^
Acts in the metropolis, and we propose
that they should be brought just as m\icJi.
under ttie authority of the Poor Law
Board as any of the rest. At the present
there is a nominal audit, but the audit in
some of these cases is worthless. I troat
that the House, with the Beport of the
Committee from 1861 to 1864 ^fore them,
and with all the facts and reasoning in ita
fiivour, will carry that part of the Bill—
the abolition of the Local Acts— so far
aa they relate to Poor Law administration
in the metropolis. Now I come to a
point which will be more interestingf
to some hon. Members sitting opposite
than any other part of the BUI, I
have been urged and invited by a great
deputation, by pamphlets, and oy letters
innumerable, to state whether I am pre-
pared to equalize poor rates through-
out the metropolis. Upon that subject I
will not keep the House in suspense, be-
cause I will say at onoe that I am not
prepared to make such a proposition ; hot
I am prepared to doa good deal, I will not
say towards equalising those rates, bat
towards distributing charges now levied
separately upon the various looalities. It
is true that this metropolis is in a certaia
sense one altogether ; but every one must
see, I think, Uiat there is no place in the
world with more varied interests or more
unmistakably divided into different dis-
tricts than the metropolis. I find one
gentleman proposing, for instance, twelve
municipal establishments, and another
proposing that London should be difi-
ded into all sorts of districts with dis-
tinct machinery ; so that it is quite clear
that London is felt to be separated into
various and distinct divisions. And I
cannot get over this: how, if you onoe
equaliae the rates of the metropolis, are
you to provide for a central manage-
ment? You must have a paid ma-
nagement, and you must do away with
local management altogether. If not, how
are you to put a proper check and control
on the expenditure ? I am quite sure of
this, that by such a change, instead of
bringing down the rates to a certain
amount, you would have a very great
increase in the present rate of expenditure.
I oould not help remarking the other day
at the deputation how many gentiemen
said they were a great deal less liberal
than they should be if they had the means
of putting their hands into the pockets of
their wealthy neighbours. I quite admit
that would be the yemlt It it Qlear« at
109
JfMrqpotitan
{FiBHUABt 8« 1867 1
Poor Bill.
lYO
all events, that the depntation looked to a
much larger expenditure. And I am not
now expressing any opinion of my own as
to the sufficiency of their present expendi-
ture in some respects — as to outdoor relief,
for instance. But I beUeve that a great
paid system for 8,000,000 people would ut-
terly ftdl, though perhaps it would become
a great department, and finally overtop
the Department over which I have the
honour to preside. If, on the other hand,
the administration were intrusted to the
Poor Law Board, it would occasion con-
flicts and difficulties greater than any that
have hitherto arisen. Another difficultv
in the way of equalizing the rates, though
that certainly might be overcome, lies in
the question of uniformity of assessment.
At this moment the rateable value of the
metropolis is put at £15,000,000. How
much of that is ascertained by the Union
Assessment Committees ? Why, as to be-
tween £9,000,000 and £10,000,000 of
that amount, we have no means of ascer-
taining whether the value ia properly
estimated or not. It is ascertained without
Union Assessment Committees, and is as-
Bessed in parishes as they please; and it may
be, for aught I know, that the assessments
may be so managed as to cause much of
the evil which is complained of. The Poor
Law Committee did not make any recom-
mendations on this subject. They called
attention to it, and say there are peculiar
circumstances in the metropolis. There
are peculiar circumstances in the metro-
polis, and I think they are such as to
justify me in proceeding to the length I
propose to do in distributing the charges.
The Union Chargeability Act got rid of a
great number of difficulties, particularly
in the City of London, where, I think,
one parish was rated at 2d, in the pound,
and another rated as high as 9^. These in-
equalities have been remedied, and the
City of London Union is now equally
assessed, and pays, no doubt, a very mode-
rate sum, having regard to its wealth, as
compared with the surrounding districts.
The chaises of the houseless poor have
all been thrown on the common fund of
the metropolis. I do not think the time
has yet come for forming a definite opinion
on that question. I &ink the time will
come when it will be necessary to inquire
into the working of that Act. It has
answered to a great extent in this way.
It has provided that no person need be
houseless in this metropolis. It has trebled
the Bomber of persons who used to apply
for admission to the casual wards of work-
houses ; but I find that, although the esti-
mate, in point of numbers, has been largely
exceeded, the actual cost of the wards and
relief given is not beyond the one-eighth
of a penny regarded at the time as suffi-
cient for the purpose. This charge is not
a very large one, yet it has been instru-
mental in introducing a new principle
into the metropolis. I told the House I
had been petitioned repeatedly by persons
at the East End of the metropolis to do
something to bring them into a better
condition. Curiously enough, I received
only yesterday from one of the parishes
that is rated highest — Whitechapel — a me-
morial on the subject ; and, if the framers
of that memorial had looked into the Bill
which I propose to submit, they could not
have put forward more accurately the
points which they desired that I should
take up, both as to the direction and ex-
tent of Uie changes that are recommended.
I will not read that memorial at length ;
but I may state its substance. The me-
morialists
** Consider that the following proyisioni leave
eaoh union atill to be responsible and ohargeablo
with preoisely those expenses and their adminis-
tration where only indiscrete and corrupt expendi-
ture could occur, and so supply a guarantee to
all parties against the increase of pauperism by
ignorant, partial, and profuse bestowal of tho
public fimds."
They propose that we should put certified
and distnct schools upon the common
fund; and that lunatics, imbeciles, the
salaries and wages of permanent officials,
fees for vaccination, small-pox and fever
hospitals, and so forth, should be charged
to the common fund. That is exactly
what I propose to do. I propose, in
the first instance, to charge to the com-
mon fund the lunatics and imbeciles. I
cannot consider that an unreasonable step.
When the settlement of these persons can-
not be ascertained, they are charged to the
county in county asylums, and counties
find the buildings, and it cannot be con-
tended that lunatics belong more to one part
of the metropolis than they do to another,
though all have an equal interest in seeing
their necessities adequateljr and comfort-
ably relieved. Besides, it is one of those
items which cannot be jobbed ; you cannot
make lunatics for the purpose. It is not
as in the case of ordinary sick persons,
who in hospital would be charged to one
fund, and out of hospital to another.
Again, there are many reasons why the
salaries of the medical officersi the officers
171
Metropolitan
(COHUONS)
PoorBiU,
172
of diflpensaries, and the charge for medi-
cines should be a chazge on the common
fhnd. At this moment half the medical
offioeis' salaries are charged upon the Con-
solidated Pund. This was done by Sir
Bobert Peel, and in practice it has been
attended with no evil consequences. And
in dealing with the salaries of these gentle-
men, and placing them upon the common
fund, a check remains with the Poor Law
Board, without whose consent no salary
can be giren. [Sir Gbobgb Obey: The
common fund of the whole metropolis?]
The common fund of the whole metropolis.
In speaking of it, I hare called it shortly
''the common fund." Then, as regards
the salaries. I do not mean the salaries
of assistant OTcrseers and collectors, but
the salaries of all officers actually engaged
in the administration of poor relief ought,
I think, to be placed on the common
fund. In many cases, also, I think when
this is done improvements may be intro-
duced. Poor persons have to travel fre-
quently to great distances to obtain outdoor
relief, and it is ver^ desirable that there
should be more relieying officers, or more
points at which they can obtain assistance.
At present I believe the very applications
for assistance often bring evils in their
train ; for by crowding together in large
numbers at a particular point a long
detention is caused, the poor have their
sickness or infirmity much increased by
being kept in the snow or the rain for an
unreasonable time. Begistration and vac-
cination expenses I would put on the
common fund. These are small chaiges,
but it is most desirable that the system of
which they form part should be mado as
effective as possible, with a view of getting
rid of that horrible and disastrous com-
plaint, the small-pox. For the same reason
I would establish the small-pox and fever
hospitals, and pay the expenses out of the
common fund. Small-pox and fever are
not things the relief of which can be
traded in. Nobody will go into a small-
pox or fever hospital who has not one of
those diseases. Patients such as those en-
danger the health of the whole population
if they are not properly cared for, and if
means be not taken to prevent the infec-
tion from being spread. I now come to
the children's schools. Great efforts are
at present being made on behalf of educa-
tion, some calling for compulsoiy education,
and some for other systems. The district
schools, and certified schools, and schools
under tiie Inspectors of the Poor Law]
Mr, Oaihot'no Hardy '
Board, are working admiraUy as separate
schools. I propose by this Bill that we
should have separate schools, and that the
maintenanee of the children shall be paid
out of the common fund of the metropolis.
The building will be provided by the dis-
trict. I have now to consider what all
these charges will amount to. I will not
go into the details now, because I shall
lay on the table papers that will give the
fullest information on the subject. I pro-
pose to lay the Bill at once on the table ;
and I am sure that hon. Members wiU be
able to judge better of detaib from reading
the clauses than they would be from any
description which I might give them. It
is right, however, that I should answer
some of the questions that wiU probably
be put to me. The City of London is the
richest union in the metropoUs. What would
be the effect on the City of London Union
of these additional chaiges on the common
fund. They would increase the r^te by
3ld, in the pound. I will take an extreme
case on the opposite side — St George's,
Southwark. They would relieve that union
by reducing the rate from about St. to
about 2f . in the pound. Adding the whole
of the additional or new chaiges which I
think will arise from this measure if you
adopt it, a sum of about £60,000 per an*
num will have to be raised. Now, Id, rate
raises £61,000 ; so I think that at that sum
the metropolis may purchase a very great
improvement at a reasonably cheap rate.
Those improvements, if the House should
think them improvements, may be effected
at so Cheap a rate as Id, in the pound ;
and, although this rate will fall on the
impoverished as well as on the richer
unions, it is to be borne in mind that the
former will be relieved by the allocation
of expenses with which they are now
charged on the common fund. In order
that the money to be raised should be
devoted to a common fund it will be
necessary, as in the case of the police
rate, to appoint a receiver under ike Poor
Law Board. And instead of going to
the Metropolitan Board of Works, which
should have nothing to do with Uie ma-
nagement of the poor, I propose to zelieve
them of their present duty of obtaining
the funds for the houseless poor, and to
enact that the Poor Law Boa^ shall issue
warrants for the different rates; that the
receiver who shall give proper security,
shall pay the money into the Bank of
England, and that he shall distribute the
funds according to the just proportioiiA
173
XblnpelS«n
[Fxesatixx 8, 1867)
Poor Sm.
174
dae to fhe Beyeral nnions and districts.
I suppose it will be asked* farther, what
will be the cost of the buildings? I
have already said that; having regard
to the statement of the. Lunacy Com-
oiissionersy the lunatics for whom the
Bill proposes to provide cannot be looked
on as Ihe ordinary class of lunatics who
have some chance of being cured. Those
who have a chance of cure will go to the
ordinary asylums; and where the cases
are chronio some patients might be trans*
ferred thence to the new buildings, in-
stead of being kept where they would
only be in the way of inmates more
needing special care. If I give £50 a
head as the cost of the asylums, there
being 2,000 lunatics, the cost would
be £100,000. Of course, I speak with
great reserve on this subject. I know
that the price of building has risen very
much; but, looking at all the circum-
stances, I believe we may easUy provide
such buildings as we require for that sum.
In addition to this, I think we should
have to provide for at least 2,000 more
sick ; and, putting down the cost of the
building necessary for their accommoda-
tion at £60 a head, we^have £120,000
more. Then there would be the additional
school building, which would cost from
£50,000 to £70,000, and the fever and
small-pox hospitals, which would take from
£50,000 to £70,000 more. It would thus
appear that the entire buildings would cost
about £360,000, or say, in round numbers,
£400,000. When it is borne in mind that
many unions of the metropolis would be
obliged to build under present circum-
stances, and that some of thorn are at this
moment building,'it will be seen that a very
oonsiderable expenditure for new buildings
will take place, even should this Bill not
be passed. For instance, the site on which
Bt M aitin's Workhouse now stands has
been bought by the Government, and the
guardians will be able to build on a hotter
scale with the money which they will
receive for the present house. I think,
therefore, that I am safe in saying
£400,000 would be the extreme limit. It
would be paid off in yearly sums. The
paymmt for the first year would be
£40,000 ; but the annual payments would
become less after that, and for such a
sum two- thirds of 1^. in the pound
over the metropolis would be the required
rating. There is one other provision
in the Bill to which I wish to allude
before oenduding. It is one conferring
on the Poor Law Board a power similar
to one vested in the Irish Poor Law
Commissioners, and which, though I be*
lieve never exercised, has been found
effective in producing the desired results.
Though I intend to submit to the House
another measure applying to England ge-
nerally, in respect of certain minor points,
we have thought it right at once to ask
Parliament to give power to the Poor Law
Board to appoint proper officers in the
event of the guardians or managers de-
clining to do so. Though I believe it
never will be necessary to exercise this
provision, I think it will be advisable to
give some less expensive and more speedy
remedy than that of a mandamus in case
of neglect to appoint nurses or other
officers. Knowing this power to be vested
in the Poor Law Board, I think those in-
trusted with the management of unions
will always so act as that it will bo
unnecessary ever to exercise it. I have
now only to thank the House for the
patience with which they have listened to
me. I can assure the House that I have'
not dealt with this question without hav-
ing given the subject much thought and
consideration. I have endeavoured as far
as possible to come to a just and satisfac-
tory conclusion, feeling as I did very
deeply the responsibility cast upon me lesty
while endeavouring to mitigate existing
evils, I might take any step which should
lead to the worst of all evils— an increase
of pauperism in the country, I have
limited, as far as seemed to me possible to
do so, the burdens to be thrown on the
poorer parishes. I feel very much for
those parishes, and I cannot help throwing
out a suggestion as to what might probably
be done at a future time in the way of
exceptional relief. Without any injury to
our Poor Law system might not power be
given to the Poor Law Board in the event
of any sudden and extraordinary calamity
— such as an outbreak of cholera — to raise
a general rate, not exceeding I (^. in the
pound, over all the parishes of London ?
In this way a sum of £60,000 or £70,000
might be at once placed at the disposal
of the authorities for the relief of the
afflicted. I only throw that out as a sug-
gestion. It appears to me that it would
afford us a means of meeting some of the
evils with which we have had to contend,,
without leading to that still greater evil
to which I have just referred. I feel
satisfied that this Bill will be received by
hon. Members on the Opposition side in a
115
MHrcpoUian
(COMMONS)
fc&rBUI.
tre
spirit of forbearance andimpartiality. This
is a matter to which no party feeling can
attach itself. We have only one object in
▼iew, which is the benefit of this metro-
polis-^to do a senrice both to the rate-
payers and to the saffering poor, whether
in workhouse or receiving outdoor relief.
I commend the measare to the kind con-
sideration of the House, assuring them that
we are not so wedded to its every detail
as not to give the utmost attention to any
Amendment which may be proposed ; but
I would earnestly beg of hon. Members
who wish for larger changes to take care
lest in grasping at a shadow they should
lose the substance which we now o£fer to
the House. The right hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving for leave to bring in
theBiU.
Mb. AYETON expressed the satisfac-
tion he felt at finding that the right hon.
Gentleman the president of the Poor Law
Board, at so early a period of his political
career, had applied himself to a considera-
tion of this important question, which, he
was sorry to say, had been too long left in
its present state. He could not forget that
it was now ten years since he had brought
the subject under the notice of the House;
and in vain had he been looking for some
action on the part of the Department over
which the right hon. Gentleman presided.
Even if it was true that the descriptions
of what took place in some of the work-
houses of our metropolis were somewhat
exaggerated, he was glad that by the
publication of those accounts the press had
directed public attention to the adminis-
tration of the Poor Law. If writers of
equal ability to those who had described
the workhouses attended at the bedsides
of the poor who died in private houses,
they would find material for reports as
painful as those they had made on the
condition of the unfortunate poor people
who had had to seek indoor relief. He
believed that the true source of all the
evils connected with the administration of
the relief to the poor in the metropolis,
had been the injustice attendant on the
unequal distribution of the charges in the
different parishes. As long as that injus-
tice prevailed, it would be impossible to
deal with the consequences which resulted
^m it. He was glad the right hon.
Gentleman had recognised that principle,
and had proposed to extend the chai^
for those improvements through the en-
tire community by means of what he
termed a common fund* He was not
Mr. Oathome Eardy
going at pnsent to complain of the mea-
sure of justice which the right hon. Gen-
tleman proposed to accord; for last year
he ventured to suggest to the right hon.
Gentleman's predecessor that perhaps the
best way of meeting the question of the
equalization of the poor rates, would be
not to attempt at once to subvert the
whole administration of the Poor Law of
the metropolis by one measure, but to
proceed upon the principle of bringing
from time to time other and different daasea
of the poor on a common fund as might
be found convenient and practicable. The
right hon. Gentleman had, undoubtedly,
teSken several classes with whom it would
be comparatively easy to deal, and he
appeared to have stopped at the very
point where the real difficulties of the case
commenced. Now, he did not complain of
that; because if this tentative measare
were found to answer, the system might be
extended, and, assisted by the light of
experience, they might extend the uniform
charge to classes remaining excluded.
There was only one point to which he
wished to draw attention. The right hon.
Gentleman had not explained very clearly
what was to ba the mode of administering
the common fund. It was suggested that
there were to be district Boards, and if 00
we should be going back to a plan which
had been proposed twice before, and which
on each occasion turned out a failure.
For his part, he thought it a pity that the
attempt should be made for the tiiird time.
There would be no merit in dividing
London into new districts ; but what was
wanted was one entire administration
which would deal with the whole subject,
superintend the whole of the distribution
of relief, in those cases which were em-
braced in the present BilL Just in pro-
portion as it was attempted to rensombine
and ro-group parishes and unions, would
unnecessary expense be entailed, and the
measure be rendered inefficient The right
hon. Gentleman had suggested that^ if one
Board only were established, it would
eclipse and overshadow his own ; but that
was a rather narrow view to take of the
question, and he might depend upon it that^
as long as he presided with ability over his
own Board, it would not be ovenhadowed
by any other. At all events, he did not think
the question ought to be embarrassed by
any consideration of that kind. The ques-
tion was, whether it were desirable to have
one Board to superintend the infirmaries,
dispensaries, and lunatic asylums^ or whe-
IW
MsireptlUUm
(Februast 8, \W!\
PuMfBitt.
178
ther there should be a mnltiplioity of
Boezds.^ The ma^Btrates of the county
'veze qoite equal to deal with the Innatio
wflama oi Middlesex, and he saw no
leaKm why a Central Board should not
deal with Uie infirmaries^ dispensaries, and
lonatie asylums in the metropolis. He
did not propose to discuss the practical
hearings of the measure on the present
oocasiffli; but he hoped tiie right hon.
Gentleman would not pledge himself too
mneh to that part of his BiU. In oondu-
oon, he expressed his opinion that we
sbonld do well to deal with this question
by degrees ; for,' if the system now pro-
posed were found to answer, it might he
extended at any future time. He was desir-
ov before he sat down to thank the right
ban. Gentleman for the great attention
which he had given to tbe subject, and to
opieas the pleasure with which he had
listened *tohiB able speech.
Ynconzrr ENFIELD wished, in the first
plaee, to tender bis most grateful thanks to
the right hon, Qentleman opposite f Mr.
Gatiiome Hardy) for the spirit in wnich
he had approached this question ; and, in
the seeond, to assure him that Ihe sole
reason why the right hon. Gentleman the
Member for WolTCrhampton (Mr. C. P.
YilMers) had not been present that erening
was that serere indisposition compelled him
to remain at home. With regud to the
Tarions details of the scheme, he could only
say that every portion of it would receive
the most impartial consideration on his
part He only wished now to tender his
thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for
baring so earnestly addressed himself to
this important subject, and to state why
tbe right hon. Gentleman the Member for
UTolverfaampton had not been present to
hear his speech.
Mr. BHADY also thanked the right
hon. Gentleman for the industry and ability
he had displayed since he had presided
o?er the Poor Law Board, and had brought
to bear upon this important question. It
was quite clear that he had paid great
attention to it, and had considered it in a
^irit of perfect impartiality. The altera-
tums now proposed were highly important
hi a medical point of view, and would
remedy many of the erils the pressure of
which was now most severely felt. After
paying a high oorapliment to the editor of
Tie Laneet for the considerable expense
to which he had put himself for the pur-
pose of collecting accurate and ample in-
tonation on this subject, the hon. Member
^proceeded to say that he hoped medical
officers would for the fhtnre be fi^eed from
the influences which had hitherto been
brought to bear by the guardians most
injuriously upon the proper performance
of their duties. They were at the dis-
posal of the guardians, who might dismiss
them or continue them in their offices as
they thought fit ; and it was well known
that in many instances medical officers had
been turned out or harassed out of tiieir
office because they were disposed to order
for the patients more nounshment than
the guardians approved of. As long as
this was allowed the administration of the
medical department of the Poor Law must
continue to be unsatisfactory. The medical
officers ought also to bo better paid. If
this were done the complaints which had
been heard of the inefficient performance
of their duties would not have to be re-
peated ; but it was unreasonable to suppose
that, while they were miserably underpaid,
thoy would be found ready to devote tbeir
time and to endanger their lives cheerfully
in attendance upon the poor. It was a
piece of injustice to the poor so long as
their medical men continued to be thus
underpaid.
Ma. LOCKE said, that as he had always
taken the deepest interest in this subject,
he was unwilling to let the opportunity
pass without tendering to tbe nght hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Gathome Hardy) his
thanks for the introduction of the Bill,
and likewise for the pains which be
had taken in investigating the question,
and tbe great ability he had displayed in
introducing his Bill. When he waited
upon the right hon. Gentleman with tbe
deputation which bad been referred to by
him that evening, be saw that the sympa*
thies and views of tbe right hon. Gende-
mon were sound, and that whatever was
done would be done in the right direction.
Tbe right hon. Gentleman had only stopped
short of carrying out the complete proposal
of tbe deputation^ — namely, the equalisa-
tion of the poor rates in the metropolis,
because be thought certain difficulties
would arise from there being no sufficient
check upon a too lavish expenditure in the
relief of the poor. He believed, however,
that as soon as the present plan was
adopted, it would be found that the prin-
ciple of the Bill might be safely extended
to the equaJixation of the whole poor rate
throughout the metropolis. The Beport of
the Poor Relief Committee did not, indeed,
as the right hon. Qentleman had saidy
179
Traiei
fCaUHONS}
Uniimi Sill.
ISO
contain a direct xcoommendation in favoar
of tixe equalization of the poor lates of
the metropolis ; bat it stated that the
circumstanoes of the metropolis were so
peculiar that in any legislation to extend
the area of charge or management it
would be necessary to have regard to those
circumstances. With respect to some of
those peculiaritieB which pressed so heavily
on the poorer parishes, there was no
doubt that the Bill of the right hen. Gen-
tleman would provide a remedy, though he
did not pledge himself to all the details
of the Bill, which would be matter for
great consideration when they were before
the House. But in the principle of the
Bill he heartily agreed ; and, with other
hon. Qentlemen, he thanked the right hon.
Gentleman for the great labour he had
bestowed on the subject, and the distin-
guished ability with which he had treated
it, and for the proposals contained in the
Bill, which would be appreciated and ap-
proved of by the whole metropolis.
Mb. Aldbrman LUSK said, that all
must admire the spirit in which the right
hon. Gentleman had approached a difficult
subject, the clear and lucid statement he
had made, and the tone and temper in
whioh he had brought the matter forward.
Motion agreed to.
Bill for the establishment in the Metropolis of
Asjlums for the Sick, Insane, and other classes of
the Poor, and of Dispensaries ; and for the dis-
tribation over the Metropolis of portions of the
ohar^ lor Poor Relief; and for other purposes
relating to Poor Relief in the Metropolis, ovxlered
to be brought in bj Mr. Gazhobnk U^u>t and
Hr. Eablb.
Bill presented, and read tho first time. [Bill 9.]
TRADES UNIONS BILL.
LEAVE. FIBST BEADING.
Mb. WALPOLE, in moving for leave
to introduee a Bill for facilitating in
certain casoa the proceedings of the Com-
mifieioners appointed to make inquiry re«
apecting trades unions, and other associa-
tions of employers of workmen, said :
The Bill, Sir, I now ask leave to intro-
duce is of a somewhat unusual character,
and the circumstances which have given
rise to it are also peculiar. I will briefly
refer to them. Many hon. Qentlemen
will recollect that in the autumn of last
year a very violent outrage was com-
mitted in Sheffield, an attempt having
been made to blow up the house of a
Mr. Femeyhough, with its occupants. \
Laige rewards were offered for the deteo- '
Mr. Lock$ 1
tion of the perpetrators of this atroeioiui
deed. The Government, in answer to ap*
peab made to it, also offered a reward, and
a promise of pardon to any one oonoemed,
except the actual perpetrator, who wool<i
give information on the subject. All these
offers and promises fiBtiled, and the perpe-
trator of the deed is still unknown. In.
consequence of the failure of these efforts
to discover the guilty parties^ applicatioa
was made to the Government, on the part
of those most intimately connected with
the trade of Sheffield, that extraordinary
measures should be taken for the detection
not merely of this offence, but of similar
crimes before committed. A deputation
attended at the Home Office, headed br
the hon. Gentlemau the Member for Shef-
field (Mr. Boebuck), and he stated, on the
part of the inhabitants of Sheffield, how
earnestly they desired that the Government
should teke some steps for the discovery of
this deed. It was pointed out by the deputa«
tion that other and repeated offences had
been committed of a similar character,
some of less, some of equal atrocity ; and
there was placed in my hand a list of 200
cases within the last twenty years, in which
it was alleged that workmen had been as-
sailed. "Emi of all they had been warned
by threatening letters, Uien they had their
toob injured and their leather bands de-
stroyed, and finally incendiarism and gun*
powder had been introduced when the
other warnings hsd been found to be in-
sufficient. Under these circumstances, it
was pressed upon the Government that
even if only to prevent suspicion resting
upon the wrong persons, it would be ne-
cessary to confer extraordinary powers,
and that the Government should apply for
them to the Legislature. This deputation
was followed by another, headed also by
my hon. and learned Friend the Member
for Sheffield, from what are commonly
known as trades unions, which pressed upon
the Government with equal eamestnesa
tiie importance of taking extraordinsry
measures for discovering the real perpetra-
tors of these outrages. I think I cannot
do better than read to the House the words
of the hon. Member for Sheffield, addressed
to myself on the part of those who then
attended with him. Speaking of the trades
unions, he said —
" T hej beliere that a fall inquiry will prore that
trades unions hare been and are of great benefit
to tlie working classes and through them to the
country at large; that they are wholly innocent of
any such foul prooeedings as are bid to their
charge ; that thfiir oondaot has been wise and jost
181
liraiei
{FsBKUAItT 8, 1867)
Vnum» Bill.
182
to tMr omployen atireU at themielvM ; and tiiiit
the more Marching it the loqairy the more patent
and obfioui will appear the wisdom of those who
hare directed the proceedings of these unions, and
the immense adrantage to trade and the eoontry
at laige from their existence. Sooh being their
firm conviction, they earnestly pray yon to accede
to their request, and that yon will mo?e the House
of Commons to pass a law creating a Conmiisaion
with ample powers to make all reqnisite inqniries
into this most momentous subjeet, and that you will
support suoh Motion with ail the powers of thia
Qovemment."
I felt it to be my daty to communicate to
my Colleagues the appeal thus made to me,
and to submit to them that an application
of this kind, ooming both from the Em-
ployers and the employed, rendered it ne-
cessary to consider first whether Parliament
should not be applied to for extraordinary
powers with reference to these outrages ;
and. in the second place, if such an appli-
cation were made, whether the opportunity
ought not to be taken of inquiring fully
and completely into the working of trades
unions and similar associations. The Go-
Yemment considered that such an appeal
could not be resisted ; and the only ques-
tion, therefore, in their minds was whether
the inquiry should be limited, in the first
instance, to the occurrences at Sheffield, or
should embrace the whole subject to which
I have referred. As regards Sheffield, I
think it will be admitted on all sides that,
in the face of the double appeal made to
us, we could not but accede to the desired
inyestigation. That town is, in some re-
spects, peculiarly circumstanced with re-
gard to trades unions, I am afraid I must
say, in passing, that it has obtained an
unenYiable notoriety for outrages of this
description. But thero are also circum-
stances peculiar to it which make it the
most advantageous place in which an in-
quiry such as that now proposed could take
place. In Sheffield there are a large number
of trades unions ; many of these are in as-
sociation with others, and there are some
trades without unions at all. There is
also this further peculiarity, that the dif-
ference between the workman or artisan
and the employer or capitalist is less broad
and distinct, at least, in the cutlery trade
than it is in most of the other mani^actur-
ing districts of the country. The line
between the employers and the employed
in the great majority of the lai^e manu-
fiMturing towns is plain and obvious. The
capitalists provide everything except the
labour. But in the ouUery trade the artisan
not merely furnishes his labour, but he
rents what are called the wheek, and in
that respect he is master of his own time
and of his own resources. These wheels,
connected by bands with the water wheel,
are thus rented by the artisan, the result
being that in this double capacity — partly
as owner of the wheel and partly as work-
man— he is not merely in &06e capacities
master of his own time, but he is also
capable of sustaining severe injuries at the
hands of any disco^tented workmen who
may think they have reason to find fitult
wiUi him. A common way of showing
resentment against a fellow- workman is to
deprive him of the tools of his trade, steal
his wheel- bands, or disable his machinery
in other respects. At last, if these pro-
ceedings prove inefiectual, recourse is had
to the more flagrant outrages to which I
have already referred. In this state of
affairs it is impossible for Parliament to
shut its eyes to the importance of having
a thorough investigation set on foot, espe-
cially in the face of the applications which
have been made by all parties for inquiry.
The Oovemment have therefore arrived
at the conclusion, in regard to Sheffield,
that it is for the benefit of all concerned
that special investigation should take place;
and I have now to ask leave to bring in
the Bill of which I have given notice.
But this further point was brought sped-
fically under my notice by two depu-
tations, headed by the hon. and learned
Member for Sheffield — namely, if you
have an inquiry at all, has not the time
come when the fullest inquiry should be
made into these trades unions and other
associations i Is it not desirable that the
inquiry should be in the largest and most
comprehensive form, so that the evil or
good of these unions may equally be
brought out, and the law complained of
on the one side or the other so improved,
as to contribute to the mutual benefit both
of the employers and the employed ? That
was the grave and difficult question sub-
mitted to the Oovemment in the course of
the autumn; and it appeared to the Gk>-
vernment that there were two reasons why
such an inquiry would be most advanta-
geous. The first is the uncertain, and I
may say, after looking very fully into the
questioD, unsatisfactory state of the law.
The second is that the subject is but ill
understood by those who are most inter-
ested in it. The frdler the inquiry, the
better will the subject be understood by
the country. The facts of the case being
brought to the knowledge of an impartiid
tribunal, it will then report to the Queen
183
IMhi
(COUMOSrS)
Uhtans Bill.
1S4
and to Parliament the result of their in-
qniries before legislation is attempted.
These are the reasons which appear to me
to be absolutely irresistible in the present
state of affairs in favour of such an in-
quiry. Upon both P may take the liberty
of adding a few words. The law of this
country, independent of the common law
—the doctrine of conspiracy — is entirely
based upon the Act passed in the sixth year
of the reign of George lY. Before that
Act was passed, from the earliest period,
the law relating t6 combination was in
every respect adverse to the workmen. The
earliest statute relating to combination was
passed in the reign of Edward III. From
that time to the reign of George III. a series
of statutes were passed prohibiting combi-
nations, either for the purpose of raising
wages, or for the purpose of limiting the
hours of work, or for the purpose of
attempting to control any manufacture, or
for imposing restraints upon masters,
either with regard to the hire of assistance
or the employment of labourers. The ob-
ject of some of these statutes nobody pro-
bably would find fault with. But the
object of others was a direct interference
with the freedom of labour. It was under
these circumstances that in the year 1824
Mr. Hume obtained the appointment of a
Committee of this House, which went fully
into the whole subject, and that Committee
reported that the law respecting these com-
binations had not prevented them — that in
spite of the law combinations existed —
that they existed in the worst form in
which combinations could exist — ^namely,
as secret societies with secret oaths. The
Committee drew from these facts the na-
tural conclusion that such a state of the
law could not properly be maintained.
The Act of 6 Geo. lY., framed on the
Keport, enabled workmen, if they could,
to obtain from their employers higher
wages, or more limited hours of work;
but, at the same time, the Committee
condemned tin toto any attempt to con-
tinue such combinations, if they were to ex-
ercise by violence or threat any restraint
upon the freedom of others in the prosecu-
tion of their work or in the employment
of labour. This is clearly shown by {he
Besolutions of the Committee, the preamble
of the statute, and the speech of Mr.
Wallace, the President of the Board of
Trade, who introduced the Bill. The
seventh Resolution come to by Mr. Hume's
Committee runs as follows : —
«« That it is the ofttiiioii of this Committee tbat
Hr. Walpoh
mMters and workmen sbould be fi«ed from soeh
restrictions as regard the rate of wages and the
hours of working, and be left at perfect libertj to
make such agreements as they may nautoall/ think
proper."
And the eleventh Besolation asserts —
'* That it is absolutely necessary, when repeal-
ing the combination laws, to enact such a law as
may efficiently and by snmoaary process punish
either workmen or masters who by threats, intU
midation, or acts of Tidenoe shonld interfere with
that perfect freedom which ought to be allowed
to each party of employing his labour and capital
in the manner he may deem most adrantageoos."
The preamble of the statute states that —
'* It is expedient to nutke further proTision as
well for the security and personal freedom of in«
dividual workmen in the disposal of their skill
and labour as for the security of the property and
persons of masters and employers."
Mr. Wallace's remarks are in the same
spirit as the KesolutionB and preamble
which I have quoted, and I look upon his
speech as the ke^ to the measure which
was passed, Mr. Wallace said—
" He was no friend to the principle of the laws
which had been repealed. He did not wish to see
them re^nacted, but he wished that the common
law as it had stood before should be again brought
intoioroe. • . • By that law soflBcient powers were
giTcn to the workmen forthe'preserrationof thsir
own interests. They were permitted to meet lor
the purpose of obtainmg an increase of their
wages ; but if they went Myond this, and attempt-
ed to mix up any intimidation of others in their
schemes, it was going too fiir. The object of the
BiU was to keep up this distinotion, and every-
thing beside was left to the operation of the com-
mon law. . . . The principle of the Bill now be-
fore the nouse was to make idl associations ille-
gal, excepting those for the purpose of settling
such amount of wages as would be a &ir remune-
ration to the worknum." — [2 Eamard, xiii. 14.0L]
Mr. Wallace should have added — and no
doubt it was his intention to add — that
associations would also be permitted for
the purpose of settling such amount of
wages, and also regulating such hours of
labour, as would be a fair remuneration for
the workman. That was the object of the
Bill. The principle was simply this— to
draw a distinction between the use and
the abuse of that liberty which capital
and labour had an equal right to daiiOi
and that was, I have no doubt, the princi-
le which was to be substituted for the
aw which existed before. The desire
of Parliament was to give libertj to la-
bourers to act in combination when their
object was legitimate and reasonable^ and
to restrain them from combining to abuse
the liberty accorded to them. It was in-
tended, therefore, to leave untouched the
common laWf and nothing was done wiUi
I
IW
Awiw
{FSBXITAIIT 89 18671
Unmi sat.
186
to thfttmihe Aatof Parliameni
The eoDfleqiieDee has been that in leaTing
imtiwiched that part of the Bubjeot quea-
tMU aocm aroae which ocmiplioated the
natter Teiy much — ^namely, how far the
eoamon-law doctrine of oonapiraoy was
^plieable to trades nniona. There are
three poinia which show how mmatiBfactory
IB the atate of the law at the preaent mo-
auBt Firaty with reference to the com*
BM»-]aw doetrine of oonapiraqry a dictum
was laid down by one of the Judges — that
althongh a person, a single individual,
iiigfat do an act which would not subject
kim to an indictment, yet if two or more
iadiTidnala did the same act they might
subject themaelyes to an indictmeot for
eoDspiraoy. And the illustration given by
tkeleemed Jndge wastaken from the wages
question — nanidy, that a single workman
was perfeetly at liberty to insbt that he
would not work unless he had a certain
amoant of wagea; yet if two or three
wodosien combined for that purpose, in the
eye of the law it amounted to a conspi-
racy. Ko doabt a more liberal and a more
jest interpretation has since been adopted;
but still the law is not clearly defined, for
aoeoiding to that interpretation, although
itis tmly aaid that every conspiracy im-
plies a eombination, every combination
doea not necessarily imply a conspiracy;
and I beliere the law at this moment
flwy be taken to be that a combina-
tiott to eonatitnte a conspiracy must be the
eomlnnation of persons to do an unlawful
act, or to do an act which may be lawful
by uidawfol means. But, then, the House
will see that that very definition of com-
bioation and conspiracy leaves one point
entirely nncertain, and it is owing to that
aaoertainty that considerable difficulty has
arisan in several recent cases, and eepe-
daUy in the last case. The uncertainhr
is as to what is and what is not unlawful.
Aa applicable to this question, there are
two oases of great importance— the one
tiiat of '< Hilton 9. Eckersley," and the
other that of '' Hornby p. Close." In the
fiirmer case several employers bound them-
selves in a bond, under a penalty of £500,
Bot to employ workmen except upon certain
tsrais and conditions. One of those who
bad Bobsoribed acted in oppoaition to the
sgrsenaent^ and an action waa brought
against him to recover the penalty to
which he had rendered himself liable.
The Goort decided that» although there
vaa Botfaing in tiie bond or the subscrip-
tiflii (0 lender it ao ilh^ aa to sulgeot
the subscriber to criminal proceedings, yet,
inasmuch as the nature of the bond implied
a restraint on trade and manufacture, it
waa illegal in another sense— that is, it
could not be enforced in a civil court.
The case of ** Bom^ p. Close" was just
the reverse of this. In that case a number
of working men, forming themselves into
a society, had placed their money in the
hands of a treasurer, and brought an ac-
tion to recover the money. The daim waa
resisted on the ground that, though aome
of the rules of the society were such as
were usaally adopted by friendly societies,
yet others were such as regulated the
action of trades unions, and were calcu-
lated to act as a reatraint upon trade. The
judgment of the Lord Chief Justice haa
put before us very plainly this question
as to the legality of the Act, and of ita
illegality at Uie same time as regards any
action in the civil courts—
•• Ho f nits agreed with Mr. MelHsh that if tho
main object of the society was that of boneTolenco,
though the mlet might haTc goae a little ftirther .
or a little leu, that it was one coming within
the 9th section of the Act ; bat here the ycry
purpose and existence of the society was not
merely that of carrying ont those objects for
whnh benevolent societies, so-called, were estab-
lished ; bat also for the porpoie of carrying oot
a trades union, under a yery generally understood
combination by which men bound thomseWes not
to work except under certain conditions, and to
support themselres when out of employment in
conformity with the interests and wishes of the body
at hunge. Ue was &r from saying that a tradea
union so constituted, and for such a purpose, would
bring the members within the criminal law. On
the same principle that a combination of masters
for a certain purpose was so far illegal in re-
spect of cItU rights that it could not be enforced,
so he thought that a civil action brought on
these rules would be held to be illegid. Ue
thought, for two reasons, that this society could
not DC brought within the provisions of the
Friendly Societies' Act— first, because the pur-
poses for which trades unions were organised
were not analocons to those of benefit societies ;
and secondly, because this arrangement, though
not criminal, yet, being in restraint of trade, they
were by the law of the land illegal."
Now that state of the law is certainly not
satisfactory. It ought to be more clearly
defined what are the rules which make it
illegal for any combination of persons to
take place ; because unless it is, the right
which they have of enforcing from those
who have their money anv civil right is
very questionable. It ought also to be so
denned, that the members of these societies
may not under cover of a benevolent pur-
pose attempt to do something that is con«
trary to law or in restraint of tradoi The
187
TrudM
{OOUUONS)
VmoM sat.
IS8
question then aiueB whether the roles of
these societies cannot he so regulated hy
law as to draw the line hetween that
which is legal and that which is illegal;
so that in the one case persons may know
that if legal their rights wiU he secured,
and that if illegal t£ey ought not to at-
tempt to enter into such societies. In
saying this I do not wish to give an opi-
nion as to what should ultimately be Uie
la^ of the land, because that must depend
upon the result of the inquiry about to be
instituted. On th^ one hand, when you
find these societies extending, and in-
creasing in magnitude, and consider that
they were originally established to give
themselves perfect freedom with regard
to their own labour, it is impossible to
ignore their existence or to deny their
claims. On the other hand, if they at-
tempt to obtain through the instrumen-
tality of these combinations something
whidi the law does not allow, and cannot
allowy then the line ought so to be drawn
Jhat they ought not to be permitted to
claim a right which is not giren to them.
But it appears to me that, do what you
will— even if you can distinguishy wmch
I believe you may, between what wiU give
these societies a legal existence and that
which ought to be restrained if beyond the
law — ^vet one of the greatest evils of all —
that of locks-out on the ooe hand and strikes
on the other «— will not be lessened until
you can find something by which the difibr-
ences between the employers of labour and
the employed can be satisfactorily settled.
I consider that one of the most important,
if not the most important, objects of in-
quiry will be, whether arbitration or con-
ciliation courts, as they are called, or some
other tribunal may not be established, in
which both parties would have equal con-
fidence, for the purpose of adjusting their
differences before they arrive at that point
which is fatal, not only to themselves, but
to the best interests of the country. It
will be necessary therefore that the Oom-
mission, if appointed, shall have some per-
son of great judicial eminence to direct the
inquiry, so as to leave the law no longer
in its present uncertain and unsatisfactory
state, and to suggest for the mutual satis-
&ction of both employer and employed
some tribunal by means of which their
differences may be adjusted. I believe that
no legislation whatever can be more im-
portant than that which would accomplish
this great and most desirable object. I
sttid before, that it was not meidy on the
46*. Walpok
ground of the nnoertainty, and therefore^
to some extent, the unsatisfoctory state o£
the law, that I thought the time had coin3
when this inquiry should be made. I said
also that the subject was imperfectly nn^^
derstood, and, from all I can hear, both.
on the part of the masters and of the men,
they do not seem to have been brouglifc
into such a position that the views of
each could be thoroughly understood hy
the other. Although both have givea
much consideration to the subject from
their own point of view, the different
opinions entertained respecting it havo
never hitherto been brought before one
tribunal where they can be compared and
sifted, and where each party may^under-
stand the views of the other. If this in*
quiry attains that object, we shdl then
have before us, for the purpose of legisla-
tion, a full and Complete exposition of the
views and opinions on both sides, in order
that we may then settle the law upon a
satisfactory basis. The people of Shield,
workmen as well as masters, having so-
licited inquiry in order to detect the atro-
cious crime lately committed there, I ven-
ture to think that the opportunity may
well be taken, and ought to be taken, to
consider the whole subject, in order that
Parliament may afterwards apply the best
remedy which can be densed. It was said
on the first night of the Session by my
right hon. Friend (Mr. Oladstone), lOlnd-
ing to the paragraph in the Queen's
Speech upon this subject, that he hoped
those who recommended the Commission
did not mean to interfere with the perKsct
freedom either of capital or of labour, so
long as nothing was done, by means of
these unions and associations, to injure the
freedom of trade. I hope that the few
words I have spoken to-night will show
that no such intention is entertained by
the Government What they desire through
the Commission, and the powers which
they will ask Parliament to oonfer on the
Commission, is, to draw the line which
ought to be drawn between perfect free-
dom of labour as well as capital, and
those illegal acts and acts of violence,
threat, and intimidation, which are as de-
trimental to workmen as they are to mas-
ters and to the country at large. If I
wanted one proof to uiow that this is
the sole desire of the Government, I be-
lieve I should have nothing further to do
than to read the words of the Commission.
Her Majesty has directed the Commission
to inquire sud report on flie orj^anisatioK
189
Siradei
{Febbuabt 8, 1867)
Unumi Bill
190
and roles of trades nnionB and other as-
8ooiation8y whether of workmen or em-
ployersy and to inquire into and report on
the effect produced by such trades unions
and associations upon workmen and em-
ployers respectively, and on the relations
between workmen and employers, and on
the trade and industry of the country,
r^ard beong had to the investigation of
any recent acts of violence alleged to be
promoted* encouraged, or connived at by
such associations in Sheffield, with power
to suggest any improvements in the law
with respect to the matters aforesaid, or
with respect to the relations between work-
men and employers. The Commission will
thus have to consider these great subjects
— namely, the effect of these unions upon
workmen and employers, and their rela-
tions, and the effect they now have or are
likely to have upon the general trade of
tiie country, witii fiill power to report
upon the whole matter for the mutual
benefit of employers and employed. One
word with regard to the Bill proposed.
The Bill recites the Commission and the
object of it, and then asks for power to
inquire into the acts which have been per-
petrated at Sheffield. It is confined to
the investigation of the acts at Sheffield
almost exclusively; because a roving
inquiry of that land is not an inquiry
wmch Parliament would be likely to
grant, nor would it in all probability lead
to any practical result. There is, how-
ever, this power reserved, * that in case
application should be made to the Com-
missioners, and they should think it
reasonable to extend the inquiry from
Sheffield, then, with the sanction of the
Secretary of State, a farther investigation
may be made. Powers are given by the
Bill to compel the attendance of witnesses ;
and there is a power of examining wit-
nesses on oath, and a further power of
indemnifying them from the penalties
which might otherwise attach to illegal
acts which they had committed, on con-
dition that they make a full and complete
oonfession. These are the powers given
by the BiU, and by these I hope that
those acts which are done with so much
secrecy, and which are attended by so much
difficult of discovery, may be put an end
to, that the innocent may not be confound-
ed with the guilty whUe the guiltv may
not be punished — that is not the object of
the Bill— but be exposed, and a repetition
of such acta be prevented. With regard
to the Ooiainisri<x9i itself^ it is proposed to
make it as little of apartisan character as
possible, and to Attain that object, the
names of those to sit upon it have been
selected, one ftom the upper House of
Parliament, four from this House, and four
or five others from gentlemen outside the
walls of Parliament who take a great
interest in the subject, but who are not
intimately connected with either the mas-
ters or the workmen. The President of the
Commission is the late Lord Chief Justice
of the Common Pkas, Sir William Erie,
one I need not say, whose probity of
character, judicial impartiality, and great
ability, eminently fit him for the post.
His life for a long series of years has been
devoted to the benefit of his country, and
he has secured for himself the universal
esteem and respect of all parties. Lord
Lichfield will be appointed frx)m the other
House. There is one whom I am sure the
workmen, and the country generally,
would have been glad to see appointed on
this Commission — I refer to the hon.
Member for Westminster (Mr. Stuart
Mill) ; but he has declined tx) sit, on the
ground that his duties in this House occupy
too much of his time. I still hope that
ho may be induced to re-consider his
decision. Then there is the hon. Member
for Sheffield (Mr. Eoebuck), who has taken
a deep interest in the Subject ; the hon.
Member for Lambeth (Mr. T. Hughes),
Lord Elcho, and Sir Daniel Gooch. From
outside the House the names of the follow-
ing gentlemen have been added : Sir Ed-
mund Head, Sir James Booth, and Mr.
Herman Merivale. That makes nine mem-
bers; but I ought to inform the House that
I had a communication from a body of work-
ing men, urging that some working men
should be put upon the Commission— or, if
that course were not followed, that one or
two persons, in whom the working men
had entire confidence, might be appointed.
My answer to them was, that I had en-
deavoured to avoid having a Commission
with anything like a partisan spirit, and
that if working men were added to it,
masters must be added also. I, however,
suggested that if it were satisfactory to
them, they might reoommend to me the
name of some gentleman whom they would
like to see upon the Commission, and the
masters might do the same. In that way
the names of Mr. William Matthews and
Mr. F. Harrison were added to the number.
I thank the House for the attention they
have paid to me. I trust that good results
will arise tqm thp laboiirs of the Qom*
191
Trade%
(GOHVONSl
UnUma BiU,
192
mifldon. I hope its inqmriee will tend to
the mutual benefit of the employer and
employed. Seeing that both masters and
men agree in desiring an inquiry, and feel-
ing p^ect oonfidenoe that tiie inquiry
wUl be properly conducted, I hope it will
lead to results that will prove of perma-
nent good to the country. The right hon.
Gentleman concluded by moving for leave
to bring in the BilL
Sib GEORGE GREY said, no one could
doubt the importance of the subject ; but
with regard to the Bill itself, he did not
quite understand whether the compulsory
powers to be granted were to be limited
to Sheffield or to extend over the whole of
the country, or whether the powers of the
special inquiry at Sheffield would compel
witnesses to give evidence which might
tend to criminate themselves, and subject
them to severe penalties. He would re-
serve any opinion upon the Bill, however,
for the present. With regard to the con-
struction of the Commission, he would only
say that he did not think that a better
President could have been selected than
the eminent Judge — Sir William Erie —
who had presided so long over the Court
of Common Pleas. He felt sure thai the
Commission would be conducted in the
spirit which the right hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Walpole) desired. Of the
other Members he would refrain from ex-
pressing an^ opinion. The composition of
the Commission was a most important
question ; because, unless constituted in
such a way as to give confidence to those
whose interests were concerned, it would
be found to produce very little benefit.
Mb. THOMAS HUGHES said, he felt
the immense gravity of the inquiry on
which they were about to embark, and
was delighted to hear that the composition
of the Commission had been to some ex-
tent enlarged, so as to introduce one mem-
ber at least who would be able conscien-
tiously to advocate and to explain the posi-
tion held by the trades unions as militant
bodies. There was one point which it
was desirable to impress upon Her Ma-
jesty's Government. This inquiry must
extend over a considerable time ; and mean-
while, a recent decision had placed the
trades unions outside the pale of the law.
From the year 1824, when the combination
laws were repealed, up to 1854, the posi-
tion of those societies was simply outside
the law. Their objects were not illegal ;
but, at the same time, they had no cor-
porate powers of suing or being sued, and
Mr. WOfnk
were not in any shape within the pvoteo*
tion of the civil law. In 1853 and 1854
Mr. Sotheron Estcourt was introducing his
amendment of theFriendly Societiee' Acts,
and he (Mr. T. Hughes) rendered the trades
unions such help as he could to bring them
into a recognised position in the eye of
the law. They sent deputations to Mr.
Sotheron Estcourt on the aabject, and the
result was that he introda<^ into the
Friendly Societies' Act of 1855 the 44th
and other clauses, which enabled trades
societies, by depositing their rules with
the Registrar of Friendly Societies, to
come within the scope of the Act as far as
regarded summary powers of dealing with
fraudulent officers and members of their
own society with whom there might be
any dispute. For several years after no
further step towards recognition was taken.
Bat in the year when the Post Office
Savings Bank Act was passed, the societies
came forward and asked the right hon.
Gentleman the Member for Soal^ Lanca-
shire (Mr. Gladstone) to admit them to
the same privilege as the Friendly Socie«
ties of investing their surplus funds in
the bank. The right hon. Gentleman, with
true statesmanship, granted them the pri-
vilege, so that they were then recognised
for purposes of suing and being sued, and
of iov^ng their funds in GovemmeDt
securities. Then came the unfortunate
decision of the Queen's Bench the other
day, which entirely swept away all this
recognition, ahd placed them absolutely
outside the law of the country. Persons
who knew much of the aotion of these
bodies knew that a large portion of their
action was that of provident societies,
rather than of trades unions, lliey distri-
buted thousands a week for purely benevo-
lent purposes within theFriendly Societies
Act. To his own knowledge that was
the case with respect to one of these so-
cieties. Many of them had branches all
over the country, and the treasurers of
those branches were nominally members of
the societies, but were generally publicans,
in whose houses their meetings were held.
The decision of the other day enabled
dishonest 'persons to retain the fdnds of
the societies, there being no legal process
which would reach them. Therefore, re-
joicing that this inquiry would be entered
into, and hoping it would place the law
on a much better footing, he would uigo
earnestly upon the Government the pro-
priety of bringing forward some sack
measure as had been indicated by the boui
M
IMm
{FsBBVAItT 8, 1867)
ZTntMM Silt.
IM
Meahei tor Oxford (Mr* Neate), bo aa to
mride tha^ pending the reeolt of the
jBTBstigmtion, diahonest persona should not
he endUedy by the late deoision of the
Qaeen's Bench, to retain money intrusted
to tbem, vhile the societies had no remedy.
As this inquiry oonld only be of serrice
ia ike erent of thorough oonfidenoe being
lelt bj both aides, it was of the first im-
pcniaooe that the House should take suoh
it^as would reatore that oonfidence by
eaddiDg the tradea nnions to deal with
tber own funda'and to punish any who,
keoDsequence of the decision, might abuse
that trust. By adopting such a course
Btfiiament 'woald couTince the working
mm that they were resolved to act
thnoghout the inquiry in perfect good
faitii, and thus the labours of the Com-
mksbiL would be likely to result in a
tennination aatiafactory to all parties.
Mb. GOSGHEN said, he concurred
with the right hon. Gentleman opposite
(Xr. Walpole) as to the desirability of the
pn^osed inquiry* but did not approTO
mixing up togettier two questions appa-
leotly akin, but in reality of a totuly
£ferent nature. It was proposed that the
Coramiaaioa ahould inquire, in the first
plaee, into the unfortunate outrages which
had taken place at Sheffield, and then into
the general effect which trades unions
bad upon the trade and industry of the
eoontry. These were both yery proper
Bobjeets of inquiry ; but the question was,
whether it was quite expedient and quite
jart to refer them to the same Commis-
son? Waa it right to mix up a broad
questioa of political economy with an in*
Tcstigation into certain local outrages?
Vss it right thi^ a Commission appointed
to inquire into one of the most serious
qoestionB of the day, affecting, as it did,
the trade and manufactures of the coun-
tiy, ahould sit at Sheffield ? He scarcely
mdeiatood whether the compulsory powers
ad^ed for by the Bill to be Tested in the
Commisaion were to be limited to the Shef-
field inqmry, or were to be exercised with
regard to the broader question, which he
Qaderatood waa to be entered on at the
eondnuon of the other.
Mb. walpole said, he had not,
peihapa, made himself dearly understood
vpon the point. The CommissionerB were
to haTO power to appoint examiners, who
were to go down to Sheffield, under the
direetion of the President of the Crommis-
lioo, lor the purpose of inquiring into the
outrages which had taken phm in that
YOl., CJiXXXY. [Tfflq)SBRras.]
town. If an application were made to
the Commissioners for inquiry elsewhere,
and the Commissioners should think it
reasonable so to extend the inquiry, then,
with the sanction of the Secretary of State,
a further inyestigation might be made.
Mb. OOSCHEN said, these questiona
would be better gone into on the second
reading; but he desired to know whether
the Commissioners would be able to com-
pel witnesses to attend upon any other
questions except those connected with
these outrages?
Mb. walpole said, they would not.
Mb. GOSCHEN said, he was glad to
hear the right hon. Gentleman negative
such a supposition ; as, in the first in-
stance, there had been some fear enter-
tained that the Commissioners would hare
power to compel the attendance of wit-
nesses generally and examine them on oath,
with regard to the great question aa to
how far the operation of these associationa
had been beneficial or otherwise to the
manufacturing and other interests of the
country. It would owtainly hare been a
strong measure to call upon the secretary
of a trades union to detail oompulsorily,
and on oath, the whole of the private affidrs
of the association with which he was con-
nected. He must repeat his objection to
the two subjects — the outrages at Sheffield,
and the effect of the trades tmions on the
interests of the country — being treated
together, as such a course was likely
more or less to bias the minds of the
Commissioners, by bringing before them
prominently and from ^e very first, cer-
tain deplorable acta of a criminal nature
in such a manner as to lead them to
conduct the inquiry on the basis that the
trades unions were connected with the
outrages, and thereby more or less preju-
dice the examination into the broad ques-
tion of the effect of these organizationa on
the trade of the country.
Mk. roebuck said, that the difficulty
to which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Goschen) alluded did not exist. When
Mr. Hume brought in his Bill to give
freedom to workmen to sell their labour
at the best price they could get for it,
there had been stringent laws preventing
them from dobg so, and there was great
doubt expressed when Mr. Hume's Bill
waa proposed whether it would not be in-
jurious to the industry of the country.
Since then certain acts had occurred which
the masters said verified their anticipa-
tions of mischief, and that this She^eld
5
195
TVffiht
tCOMMONSI
Uniom B%U.
196
MflewaBaniflBtoQoe. The people of Shefr
field said they had done no harm, and
would proTO their innooenoe. The quea-
tion arose whether the laws at present
existing were henefldal, and he could not
see what mischief could arise ikom an
inquiry into the Sheffield outrage, which
had heen brought forward as an illustra-
tion of the working of those laws? One
party said the disease was fatal ; another
said it did not exist. An impartial in-
quiry would elicit the facts.
Mb. NEATE said, he thought the two
subjects of inquiry should be conducted
separately. Eren supposing that the in-
vestigation of the outrages at Sheffield
would not prejudice the minds of the
Commissioners against the trades unions,
tiie House must look to the effect which
would be produced upon the minds of
the working men by the two questions
being treated as one. The minds of the
working classes were just now in a yery
aensitiTe state; and he did not think that
it would be desirable to suggest to them,
eyen indirectly, that the oiganization of
the trades unions was in any degree con-
nected with the crimes which had been
perpetrated at Sheffield. He would haye
confidence in any Commission that might
be appointed to inquire into the case.
That, howeyer, might not be the opinion
of the working men of England, more
especially as this Commission not only
inquired into the facts, but also acted as
the adyiser of the Crown. It was there-
fore important not to do anything which
would wound the sensibilities of the work*
ing men by mixing up two subjects not
necessarily connected. He entirely agreed
with the opinion expressed by the hon.
and learned Member (Mr. T. Hughes) as
to the propriety of restoring the trades
unions to the position they had oocupied
before the lato decision in the Court of
Queen's Bench, which appeared to him to
be in direct opposition to the expressed
intontums of Parliament on the subject.
It was a delieato matter to criticixe the
opinions of men so much aboye suspicion;
but when Judges multiplied cases in which
contracts wa« to be set aside as yiolations
of public policy, they were not encroach-
ing but treading upon ground which Par-
liament shared with them, and the recent
decision was a yery serious one, depriying
these unions, as it did, of any legal stotus
as benefit sooietiea. Moreoyer, the discre-
tion which was to be left to magistrates
as to what degree of departure from flie
Mr. Hoebuch
purposes of a friendly society rendered or-
ganixations illegal, was one which they
were by no means fitted to exercise. Upon
this ground alone it was desirable to pass
a proyisional measure exempting trade so-
cieties from the forfeiture of those priyi-
leges which they had enjoyed prior to the
recent jud^ent; and he should defer pro-
ceedings with his Motion on that subject^
in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman
would see the propriety of his proposaL
Sib FRANCIS CBOSSLEY said, that as
a manufiicturer, he had had a great deal
to do with the employment of labour; and,
as far as he could judge, the law as it stood
enabled both the workman to sell his labour
at the best price he could obtain for it, and
themanufac^urer to buy labour at the cheap-
est, without molestation. The establish-
ment with which he was connected engaged
a short time ago to build a warehouse ; but
the master mason found great difficulty
with his men, who, notwithstanding that
he increased their wages and shortened
their houn of labour, all struck at an
hour's notice. He said, that were he to
submit to their demands he should soon
haye a repetition of the miaconduct. The
firm offered the master eyery assistance in
their power; and after the landlord of a
beer-shop, who had been found intimidat-
ing new men who sought for employment,
had been summoned before a magistrate
and sent for a term to Wakefield House
of Correction without the option of a fine,
and had his ** topping'' cut off— much to
his astonishment-— there was no fhriher
difficulty, and the work proceeded. There
was a good deal of unreasonable feeling
abroad that it was wrong for working
men to stend to sell their labour at the
best price; but it must be remembered
that their labour was the only thing
they had to sell, and the best thing
to do was to leaye these matten to
take their natural course. Although his
firm employed about 5,000 people, they
had not had a strike for twenty-fiye
yean. It was a great mistake on the part
of employen to suppose that the lowest
priced labour waa always the cheapest. If
a man wanted to succeed in life, it was
not by paying a less price for labour than
his neighboun ; because by paying a little
mora than others he would secura the best
workmen in the district, and by haying
the best workmen he would be much better
able to compete in the market than those
who payed a smaller rate. As when they
went to sell goods, so when they went to
191
TraieB
(Febeitabt 8, 1867)
VnioM Sia.
198
bny labour fh^ miut meet argnment by ar-
gument, and m bis opinion in the trades
differences that bad ocenrred the fanlt was
quite as much with the masters as with the
men. If there was not so^mnoh desire to
ran down the price of laboar, and masters
showed a more conciliatory spirit, there
wonld be fewer strikes and outrages. If
the law was imperfect, by all means let
it be remedied. He thought it was not
far from what it should be. They must
not expect too much of Parliament. Any-
thing practical that was to be accomplished
roust be broaght about by the wise discre-
tion of the masters* and workmen in their
dealings between themselyes. If masters
would try to get the best productions in-
stead of die oheapest there would be fewer
strikes.
Mb. AYBTON said, he had been so
often appealed to by friends of trade socie-
ties in reference to proceedings in that
House, that he felt called upon to say a
word upon the subject under discussion.
Ko one could object to an inquiry into
what had taken place at Sheffield ; but the
proceeding recommended by the Home
Secretary was one which wotdd be received
with astonishment by the great body of
the working people of the country. If he
understood rightly, the Commission was to
be appointed to inquire into the effect upon
the industry of the countxy of trade so-
cieties legfdly and properly conduoted.
Parliament had long since recognised the
legality and policy of trade societies. [Mr.
Waltolb dissented.] When Mr. Hume's
Act passed. Parliament certainly recognised
their legality. His hon. and learned Eriend I
(Mr. Bolt) shook his head, and seemed
to think that legal trade societies did not
exist, but Parliament had certainly recog-
nised the status of societies having legal
objects in view. He entirely objected to
the proposal of the Govemment that any
Chief Justice, however learned, should sit
in judgment on one of the gravest politi-
cal questions of the day, and undertake
to decide whether institutions which had
long existed under the sanction of Parlia-
ment were or were not l^;al, and whether
they conduced to the prosperity of the
trade of the country, l^e inquiry would
obviously be useless, unless if the Chief Jus-
tice's judgment were against trade societies
they were to be repressed, and to return to
the state of the law previous to 1824. It
could have no other effect than to destroy
any remainmg feeling of confidence in the
minds of the working elasscs with refer-
ence to the conduct of Parliament. It
was quite another thing to inquire whether
any abuse, any illegal acts, had been per-
petrated under the name of trades socie-
ties. Nobody could better inquire into that
subject than the late Chief Justice of the
Common Pleas; but he hoped the right
hon. Gentleman did not contemplate going
beyond that. The right hon. Gentlemsn
had suggested courts of conciliation or ar-
bitration— ^was the Commissicm to investi-
gate that subject ? Some four years ago
he had devoted to it much time in a Com-
mittee upstairs ; a Bill had been carefully
framed for the establishment of these
courts, and it passed that House without
opposition. It had been rejected, how-
ever, by the other House in the most con-
temptuous manner, without consideration,
without reflection, and, he ventured to
add, without intelligence. The House of
Lords, therefore, were answerable for the
present state of things, and any acerbity
of feeling which might exist between em-
ployers and workmen. It was not neces-
sary to have a Commission to re-consider
that question. He hoped the labours of
the Commission would be limited to the
investigation of the illegal acts of trades
unions, and that it would not enter into
an inquiry whether acts perfectly lawful
have been favourable or unfavourable to
the trade of the country. The decision
of the Court of Queen's Bench that a par-
ticular rule was ill^l might be right ;
but the effect of the decision in making
the society itself illegal was unreasonable.
The most convenient course would be for
the right hon. Gentleman at once to bring
in a Bill to declare that illegal rules in
benefit societies should not be enforced,
but that the other objects of such societies,
which were most beneficial to the working
people and advantageous to the country
at large, should remain. It was mons-
trous that, because some illegal rule had
crept in, therefore fiinds which had been
subscribed to meet cases of sickness should
be left at the mercy of any one to swallow
up for his own benefit.
The ATT0RK£T GENERAL: The
hon. and learned Gentleman has founded
his aigument upon quite an imaginary
opinion, which he has attributed to me.
He seems to think that my opinion is that
there is no sueh thing as a lawful trade
society. I entirely disclaim entertabing
such an opinion. I know that there are
many legal trade societies. I entertain
no doubt that the great majority of tiado
908
^rtti$i
(coinioirs)
Uni<m BiB.
204
his own district, where efforts hftdbeen
made to pat an end to strikesi the most
formidable difficoltj which they had had
to encounter were certain egregious falla-
cies which had been pnt forward under
the authority of the hon. Member for
Westminster (Mr. Stuart Mill). For in-
stance, he was quoted on one occasion as
having stated, in one of his authoritative
booksi that it was quite justifiable for work-
men not only to combine for a particular
sort of work, and for a fixed rate of
wages, irrespective of demand and supply;
but that further than this, they were jus-
tified in adopting rules for the purpose of
preventiug too great a number of persons
from entering into that trade and so estab-
lishing an iojurious competition. When
such arguments were put forward, he
thought that it was quite necessary that
there should be an inquiry in order to find
an answer to such opinions. For his part,
he believed that the inquiry would be of
the greatest benefit.
Mr. WALPOLE said, he thought that
the hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. E. Forster)
had somewhat mistaken the nature of this
Bill. The object of the Bill was not simply
to give Parliamentary powers to the Com-
mission to detect the perpetrators of the
outrages at Sheffield, but in the inquiry
into trades unions and associations, they
were to have regard to the outrages
which were alleged to have been perpe-
trated by means of these trades unions
and associations, and to see how fax
such outrages were or were not con-
nected with the organization and rules
of these tr&des unions and associa-
tions. It was therefore a part, and,
indeed, a necessary part of the subject,
according to all the regulations and to all
the workings of these institutions, to see
whether the unions had led to any great
extent to acts of outrage and violence,
such as had taken place. The hon. Gen-
tleman would therefore see that if this
Commission had been issued independently
of a direction to inquire into the particular
Sheffield outrage, still the Commission
would not have done its duty if it had not
inquired into the working of these unions
in reference to all acts of aggression against
workmen. It was therefore a necessary
part of the inquiry ; and that it should be
carried on by a Commission having Par-
liamentary powers would only have this
effect, that they could more thoroughly
investigate the subject, and thereby enable
Parliament to deal more satisfactonly with
Jfr. JFhalhy
it. The hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton) en-
larged upon the importance*— in which ho
fully agreed with him — of having triba*
nals established for the purpose of adjust-
ing the differences between workmen and
their employers. The hon. (Gentleman
totally misapprehended him if he thought
for a moment that he (Mr. Walpole) was
not of opinion that the hon. Member took
great pains to establish such tribunals.
He was perfectly aware that this was so.
So long ago as Mr. Hume's Committee,
there was a recommendation that there
should be means found for settling such
disputes. They did not attempt to define
the means, but very few attempts in that
direction had been made in Parliament
until lately. Although the hon. Member's
Bill had feiiled in the House of Lords, yet
it was, perhaps, in consequence of this
that a noble and learned Lord had now
taken up the subject. The failure of that
Bill was no reason for issuing the Commis-
sion ; but still, if there were to be a Com-
mission, surely the investigation should be
completed, and should include this biancli
of the subject. He believed that there
was no part of the matter more important
than that there should be tribunals in
which both masters and men should hare
confidence; and he believed that they
would be better oonstituted for having the
opinions of masters and men directly
brought before the Commission, which
should, AS it were, set its seal on that
which would be the best mode of securing
the desired end. The hon. Member (Mr.
Neate) would find that it was not so easy
a matter to alter the law in the point he
alluded to. The real fact was that the
whole question of the legality of these
unions, with reference to questions like
that that had recently arisen in the
Queen's Bench, turned upon this, what
were to be the rules which were to sanc-
tion the status of such unions, so that
they might be able to enforce their civil
rights against members of their own body,
and also against strangers, without tres-
passing upon the laws of the land in those
respects in which laws were deemed neces-
sary for the freedom of trade, or for other
purposes, which, if they were not ob-
served, would enable such societies to com*
mit acts which they were now not per-
mitted to do. It was ihe rules of these
societies upon which the difficulties arose.
There was no difficulty if the societies
were simply for friendly or benevolent
purposes, legalised by the Act of George I Yy
805 DtAUn Unmnity (Fsbrvabt 8^ 1867} Profiuonhip9 Bill. 2M
apart from eombining for tlie settlament
of wages to be worked for and the hours
of work ; bat if they went beyond into
matters which the law did not reoognise
as legal, then there was established a- state
of things that might or might not be good,
aeoording to the rules for tiie organisation
of these Booieties. Although they oould
insist upon all their clril rights whilst
they kept within certain bounds, yet be-
yond them thoy could not go until the
L^giBlature had determined that what was
now oontrary to law should no longer be
so. The hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton) said
that this Commission would be taken in
a spirit (which was certainly not intended)
of an inquiry hostile to working men ;
but all he (Mr. Walpole) could say was,
that he had at that time several applica-
tions from working men asking for inquiry.
And, in condnsion, he would express me
own belief that thLs inquiry would do a
great deal of good, and be beneficial to all
concerned in tedo, as well as to the coun-
try in generaL
Mo'Uon agreed to.
BiU Ibr fiusiUtatlDg in eertsia oases the pro-
oeedings of the Commiasioners sppointed to mftke
inqoiry respecting Trades X^nions and other asso-
ciations of omplojers or workmen, ordered to be
broaght in bjr Mr. Secretary Walpolb, Lord Johh
Mufvias, sad Sir SrArrosD Kostbooxs.
CRIMINAL LAW BILL.
Mb. BTJSSELL GTJBNEY, in moying
for leave to introduce a Bill to remove
some defects in the administration of
the Criminal Law, said, the measure
was not one of an extensive nature,
and was entirely directed to the removal
of evils which had come under his own
observation in the Central Criminal Court,
in which he had the honour to preside.
The House was aware that at present
ample means were taken to secure the
attendanoe and provide for the remunera-
tion of witnesses whose evidence was neces-
sary to establish the guilt of the prisoner.
He proposed by the Bill to extend that
power, so that it should not be confined
to the witnesses who were required to
establish the prisoner's guilt, but should
also apply to witnesses who might establish
his innocence. That was a matter of great
importance to the due administration of
jostioe. When prisoners made statements
in their own defence, he had not unfre-
qiiMily Mt ashamed in asking them whe-
ther they had any witnesses to call,
knowing, as he did, that they had no pe-
cuniary means of compelling the attendance
of witnesses who might or might not prove
their innocence. It was, of course, neces-
sary to provide safeguards against the
abuse of this privilege, the nature and
merits of which would be best considered
in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving for leave to bring
in the BilL
Thb attorney GENEEAL said,
he was requested by his right hon. Friend
the Secretary for the Home Department,
who was then absent, to say that any mea-
sure on such a subject introduced by the
learned Becorder was entitled to great
attention and respect. That point of the
proposed Bill which provided for the at-
tendance of witnesses on behalf of the
accused was entitled to favourable conside-
ration, although the power might be much
abused unless carefully guarded. He, of
course, offered no opposition to the intro-
duction of the measure ; but it must be
understood that the Government would
reserve to itself the right to form an
opinion on the BiU and its details, unless
it was laid beforo the House.
Motion agreed to.
Bill to remoTO some defects in the administm-
tion of the Criminal Law, ordered to be brought
in bj Mr. Russbll Gubiht and Mr. Goisainan.
BiMprtienied^ and read the flrrt time. [BiU 8.]
COXrrBOTEBTBB XLSCtlOKS.
Mr. Sfkakkr acquainted the House,
that his Warrant for the appointment of
Members to serve on the General Com-
mittee of Elections was upon the Table :
— Warrant read as followeth : —
Pursoant to the provisions of *'The Election
Petitions Act, 1848, ' I do hereby appoint Samuel
Whitbread, esquire. Member for the Borough of
Bedford ; James Clajr, esquire, Member for the
Town of Kingston upon UuU ; The honourable
Edward Frederic Lereson Gower, Member for the
Borough of Bodmin ; Sir Frederick WUliam Hey-
gato, baronet, Member for the County of London-
derry; George Sclater-Booth, esquire, Member
for the Northern DiTision of the County of South-
ampton ; and Sir William Stirling-Maxwell, ba-
ronet. Member for the County of Perth ; to be
Members of the General Committee of Elections
for the present Session. Given under my hand
this eighth day of February, 1807.
Jons Etiltv Dskisok, Speaker.
DUBLIN V5ITEBSITT 7B0FES80BSHIP3 BI;LL.
Conndered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Rewtvedf That the Chairman be directed to
mo?e the HoutOt thai leare be giTeo to bring in a
SOY
EiiMuM Church
(LORDS)
{IreUmi),
20B
Bill to open the Profe«orships of Anatomy and
Chirurgerj, Chemistrjr and Botanyp in the Uni-
Tersitj of Dablin, to all penoDs, irrespectiTO of
their religious creed.
Resolution reported : — Bill ordered to be
brought in by Mr. Lawsoh and Mr. Sulutav.
Bill pr»«0n(e(2, and read the first time. [Bill 10.]
1UMB8.
Seleet Committee appaintedf " to inqnire into
the operation of the Aots for the Regulation and
Inspection of Mines, and into the complaints con-
tained in Petitions from Miners of Great Britain
with reference thereto, which were presented to
the House during Session 1805." — (Mr.Ayrkm.)
LIBRL BELL.
On Motion of Sir Goufiv O'Loohlbit, Bill to
amend the Law of Libel, and thereby to secure
more eflbctually the liberty of the Press, ordered
to be brought in by Sir Colmax O'Loohlbn and
Mr. Baihis.
BUI presented, and read the first time. [Bill 11 .]
House adjourned at a quarter
before Ten o'clock, till
Monday neit.
HOUSE OP LOEDS,
Manduy, February 11, 1867.
LAND TENURE (IRELAND).
Thb Mabquess of CLANBICARDE
said, notice had been given in the other
House that Bilk relating to the improve-
ment of the tenure of land in Ireland
would bo shortly introduced. He was
afraid that those Bills would not deal with
the whole of the question, but only with
a part of it ; and as his wish was that the
question should be very fully discussed
when it came on in that House, he would,
on Monday next, call the attention of their
Lordships to the subject, and lay upon the
table a Bill which was nearly the same as
the one he introduced last year.
ESTABLISHED CHURCH (IRELAND).
MOTIOir FOB BBTUBNS.
The Bishop of DOWN, in moving for
Betums respecting the Established Church
(Ireland), said, he did not intend to open
up the great question of IJie Irish Church
at present-— a question which must some
day receive solution at the hands of Par-
liament—for the present^ he would content
himself with stating that the rulers of the
Church were quite aware that there existed
defects in relation to the Established
Church in Ireland which required remedy^
and anomalies in its constitution, and ia
the distribution of its endowment^ which
required to be carefully considei^ and
amended. No matter what the proteeta^
tions of attachment to the Church might be»
or however high the office he might hold
in it, he could not look upon any one as
a safe friend or a wise counsellor, who
justified the one or palliated the other.
As this question must sooner or later oomo
before the Legislature, it was just, reason-
able, and right that ha should seek to
place in their Lordships' hands reliable
Itetums, so that when Uie question came
on to be discussed, their Lordships might
be able to give their best attention to it.
The enemies of the Church in Ireland
sought its fall and destruction ; but if the
rulers of the Church would bring in a
well-considered and wise measure of reform
in the Church, their enemies' wild cry for
destruction would awaken no response in
the hearts of the people of Ireland, and
would have no weight with thoughtfbl
men. He would just add that he believed
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in Ireland
disposed of the funds in their hands with
great judgment and prudence.
Mwed, That an bumble Address be presented
to Her Majesty for,
Betnm from the Eoclesiastical Gommissionen
(Ireland) of the Greet and Not Serenuet of the
EetabltBhed Churoh in Ireland ; ipeoifjing tlie
▼ariottfl Heads from which sooh RoTenuet are
derired, and inoluding the Revenues of the Churoh
now in the Hands of the Ecolesiastical Commis-
sioners derived from'Eoolesiastical Sooroes; Also,
Statement of the Charges and Deductions which
eonstitute the Diflbrenoe between Gross and Net
Revenues: Also,
The Total Amount received hf the Eoclesi-
astioal Commissioners for the Purchase of Per-
petuities : Also,
The present Amount invested : Also,
Payments to Vicars Choral and Curates of sus-
pended Benefices; specifying to what Cathedral
such Vicars Choral are attached, and the Names
of the suspended Benefices, and Amount paid in
each Case : Also,
Payments in Augmentation of small Benefioos
firom the Funds belongiug to the Ecolesiastical
Commissioners, with the Name of each Benefioo
and the Amount of Augmentation : Also,
The Annual Amount paid by the Ecolesiastical
Commissioners for the Payment of Parish Clerks
Salaries: And also.
The Annual Amount paid by the Ecclesiastioal
Commissioners to provide Communion Elements.
— ( The BUhop of Down,)
Thb Abohbishop of DUBLIN said, he
was not able to support the Motion of the
right rev. Prelate ; but Ihat was not from
any desire not to see all anomalies in the
S09 Turnpike TrusU-^ (Febbuart 11, 1867)
^testion.
210
Irish Church removed, but simply upon
the ground that these Betums woald
inTolve a vast deal of labour to a hirge
body of persons, and that even if they
were made they would be superfluous, as
the information sought for was already in
their Lordships' hands. Most of it . was
to be obtained from the Annual Report
furnished by the Commissioners ; some of
the facts were to be found in an Act of
William IV. ; and Beturns made on the
Motion of Captain Staepoole in 1864 gave
other portions of the information now
asked for. Under these circumstances, he
would request the right rev. Prelate to with-
draw his Motion, or if he did not do so he
should ask their Lordships to negatire it.
Ths Bishop ot DOWN wished to state
that the most roT. Prelate was in error in
stating that the Betums sought for were
easily accessible, for the fact was they were
spread over many years, and were set forth
in different reports.
Thb Mabquess ot CLANBICABDE
thought the Motion ought to be acceded
to. The only reason given why these
Betums should not be given in the form
set forth, was that they would cause extra
labour to some persons, but that was in
truth no reason at all. The Beturas asked
for ought to be presented to the House in
a compendious form. He certainly could
not understand how their preparation
could cost much labour, for the right rev.
Prelate who offered the objection stated
in so doing that the greater part of the
information sought already existed, though
scattered in numerous miscellaneous papers.
A right rev. Prelate had moved for Uiese
Beturas, and it would seem strange to the
public if thoy were refused at the instance
of his most rev. Brother.
The £abl of DEBET was desirous
that every necessary information should be
furnished; but out of the eight queries
presented by the right rev. Prelate, infor-
mation had already been given in reply to
seven ; and a Motion for a Betum ^as at
present before the other House, which
would be agreed to by the Government.
That Betum would fumith the necessary
information asked for by the eighth query.
It seemed to him to be imposing unneces-
sary expense and trouble to call a second
time for information which had already
been given in another form.
The Bishop of DOWN was surprised
at the Qovemment conceding to a popular
assembly a demand which was refused
when inade in the higher branch of the
Legislature. The Motion, too, in the
House of Commons, instead of referring
to one point only, was of a most volumi«
nous character.
LoBD CBANWOBTH suggested that
the right rev. Prelate should assimilate the
terms of his Motion as regarded the in-
formation not already granted, with those
of the Motion to be made in the other
House of Parliament and which was to be
given to the Government.
The Eabl of DEBET had not the
slightest objection to concurring in the
right rev. Prelate's Motion if he would
make it more agreeable to that moved in
the other House. What he objected to
was the furnishing the same information
in different forms, a practice which would
entail a great deal of unnecessary work
upon the office.
On Question, Eesolved in the S$gatwe^
HouwtMljonmed at a quarter before
Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half
past Ten o'clock.
HOUSE OP COMMONS,
Monday, February 11, 1867.
MINUTES.]— SiuoT CoMMiTTn— On Standing
Orders nominatied ; Committee of Selection
fiominaied; Printing appointed; Public Peti*
tione (Mppoinied and nominated.
Supply — considered in ComnriUee — ReechUiont
[February 8] reported.
PuBUo BiLL-^Ordered — Valuation of Property.
Firet Reading — Valuation of Property [12].
TURNPIKE TRUSTS.— QUESTION.
Me. KNATCHBULL - HUGESSEN
asked the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, Whether, during the recess,
there has heen issued from the Home
Office any Circular addressed to the Trus-
tees of those Turnpike Trusts which were
scheduled for discontinuance in the Conti-
nuance Act of last Session ; if so, what is
the nature of that Circular, and do the*
GoTemment contemplate legislation upon
the subject of the turnpike system during
the present Session? There was also a
supplementary Question which he wished
to ask — ^namely. Whether the right hon.
Gentleman intended to re-introduoe that
compensation clause on the same subject
which he had had the honour of inserting
in the Continuance Bill of last Sessioui
2tl Poiidl OommunieaUan (COMMONS)
9cUh ike Huk
U%
vbioh the right hon. GentleiiMm omitted,
but which bmog afterwards moved by the
hon. Member for North Warwickshire was
tinanimoasly adopted in that House^ though
it was rejected in another place ? As he
had not given notice of his intention to
ask this Qaestion, he woold, of course,
postpone it if necessary.
Mb. WALPOLE: It will be in the
recollection of the House that a vast num-
ber of turnpike trusts — ^many more than
usual — were included in the Bill of last
Bession ; and inasmuch as several persons
were affected hj that Aot» they were pro-
mised at the time of the discussion that
the^ should have an opportunity of stating
their case before the Home Secretary.
Accordingly, in the course of the autumn
a circular was issued, inviting, in fact, any
observations which they might have to
make upon it. That is the answer which
I have to make to the first part of the
Question of my hon. Friend. With regard
to the nature of the circular, I think I
have explained that. As for the second
part of his Question, as to intended legis-
lation on the subject, I must frankly own
that so great are the difficulties that I
cannot at present promise legislation on
the subject As to the other Question of
which my hon. Friend has not given notice,
I would rather postpone my reply to it.
BUNHILL FIELDS BURUL GROUND.
QVESTIOir.
Mb. CKAWFORD asked the Secretary
of State for the Home Department, Whe-
ther the Government are aware that the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners have received
from the Corporation of the City of Lon-
don an offer
** To undertske the eharge of the Banhill
Fields burial ground m trustebs for the public,
defraying the cost of watching, maintaining, and
keofMng it in a proper condition, planting trees
and shrubs, keeping up the gravel walks, and
preserving the tombs, so that it may form, wiibin
proper hours, and under proper regulations, a de-
cent and ornamental open space of the Metropolis,
eovenanting that, in the event of failure in these
respects, it shonkl revert to the Eoolesiaitical
Commissioners,"
and that such offer has been declined by
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners i
Mb. WALPOLE : There are some ques-
tions which it is hardly possible to answer
with a single negative or affirmative, and
this is one of them. I believe there was
some such application made some time ago
on the part of the Cit^ of London to the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners with the yiew
Mr. KnoMAuU'Rugeaen
of preserving the burial grounds as an.
ornamental open space; but, inasmuch as
there are large claims made on the City o£
London with roferonce to that sobjeot*
and aa a vast deal of negotiation has beeia
going on with regard to it, I believe the
best answer I can give to tiie Question is
to inform the hon. Qentleman that aa un*
opposed ICotion will be made to-night for
the production of all the Correspondence
on this subject, which I believe will supply-
all the information which the hon. Gentle-
man desires to possess.
RAILWAY TRAFFIC RETURNS.
QUEBIZOV*
Mb. CRAWFORD asked the President
of the Board of Trade, Whether the Re-
turns of the ** Number of Miles Travelled
by Trains," printed on page 27 of Parlia*
mentary Paper, No. 483, ordered to be
priqted 7th August, 1866, are made up by
the sevOTal Companies referred to on one
and the same principle ?
Sib STAFFORD NORTHCOTB said,
he was unable to state on what prindple
railway companies made up these returns.
He believed that all the companies need
the same form. And as they wished to
know the number of miles proper travelled,
exclusive of shunting and unprofitable tra^
veiling, he would next year alter the qaea-
tions put to the railway companies, so as
to meet the hon. Gentleman's wishes.
POSTAL COMMUNICATION WITH THE
EAST.— QUESTION.
Mb. CRAWFORD asked the Secretary
to the Treasury, If any steps have been
taken towards carrying into effect the
recommendations of the Select Committee
of last Session with reference to Postal
Communication with the East?
Mb. HimT stated, that on the 1st of
this month formal notice was given to the
Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation
Company to terminate their contract with
regard to the India and China msils^ ao
that Her Majesty's Government might be
placed in a position to contract for the
conveyance of mails once a we^ to Bom-
bay. With regard to the contract for the
conveyance of the Australian mails, Her
Majesty's Government had thought it better
to defer giving notice until after they bad
received from the colonies their replies to
communications which have been addressed
to them on the sulject.
SIS
BiRRICADE AROUND HYDE PARK.
Ul BTOE mOOJL asked the Fint
Comndmatmr of Works^ When the pieoont
knieade around Hyde P&rk is iikelyto
lie lemoTBd ; and what desoriptioii of Feooe
n to be ereetad in place of it ?
loBP JOHN MANKSRS : The Park
low aeetion of the fences is under eon-
tnct to be completed by the 15th of Oo-
iober ssxt. Other portions of the fences
U9 motnoted to be completed hy the 1 5th
«f July next year. The oharaeterof the
iaBce is a enhstantial one of iron, and I
bp8^to a certain extent, ornamental. It
lin be set in a granite curb.
PUBUO RECORDS OF IRELAND.
IFmivABT 11» 1867) SgfifrwL 314
noble Friend that it is the intention of
the OoTemmeat to introdnee a measure on
the Bubjeot.
SaROWI^Al^D BI.ENNERHASSET
abd the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
Wbetiier the Goverament intend to take
lay iteps to regltdate the custody of the
Brnds and Rolls of Ireland ?
Iaed NAAS : The attention of the Oo-
renuneot has been directed to this question
doriog the recees, and I hope to be able
in the coarse of a very few days to submit
tsMssore on the eubjeot to Parliament.
ARMY SSTllfATES.— QUESTION.
CArrAiir QBIDIj'KY asked the Secretary
©f State for War, WTien the Army Es-
tmiates irill be laid npon the table of the
Hoose ; and, whether they will be con-
adered before the Kavy Estimates ?
GEars&iLL P££Xj z The Army Estimates
'vfll be laid npon ^e table ot the House
«a Monday next, and I shall bring them
fsrvaid at the earliest possible period, of
wluch I will give due notice. At present,
1 am. unable to say whether they will
^leeede the Navy Estimates.
FALSE WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
uuxsnoN.
Loan EUSTACE CECIL asked the
Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, Whether it is the intention of the
Gofernment to introduce a measure for
the more effectual discovery and punish-
ment of persons using false weights and
measures, in order that a practice disgrace-
ful to the trading community, and espe-
cially prejudicial to the interests of the
poorer classes may be put a stop to ?
Kb. W ALFOLE : I haye to mform my
JAMAICA-GENERAL O'CONNOR.
QTrSSTIOll.
Mb. GILPIN asked the Secretary of
State for War, When the Return ordered
in August last referring to the Correspond-
enoe of the Horse Guards with General
O'Connor will be laid upon the table?
Gbnkbal PEEL: In answer to the
hon. Gentleman, I have to say that I
haye already laid the papers on the table
of the House.
INSURRECTION IN CRETE.— QUfiSTION.
Kb. GEEOORY wished to ask the
Secretary of State for Foreign AAurSi
How soon the Papers will be laid upon
the table with reference to the Cretan
Insurrection ?
LoBD STANLEY : I laid them on the
table ten minutes ago.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM^
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE.
Order for Consideration of so much of
Her Majesty's most gracious Speech as
relates to the Bepresentation of the People
in Parliament read.
Thb CHAJTCELLOB or thb EXCHE-
QUER: I moTe that the paragraph of
The QuEBir's Sfbbok that relates to the
Representation of the People in Parlia-
ment may be read at the table.
Paragraph in Queen's Speech at the
opening of the Session read, as follows ; —
" Tour Att&ntion will again he eaUed to the
State of the Representation of the People in
Parliament; and I trust that your Delihe-
rations, conducted in a Spirit of Moderation
and mutual Forbearance, may lead to the
Adoption of Measures which, without un-
duly disturbing the Balance of political
Power, shall freely extend the JEleetive
IVanehise"
The CHAN^CELLOR or the EXCHE-
QUER : I wish. Sir, on the part of Her
Majesty's Government, clearly to convey
to the House the interpretation which
they put upon those gracious words that
have just been read, and which, under
their advice. Her Majesty deigned to ad-
dress to her Parliament. They are signi-
ficant words. Her Majesty £rom the
215
ParliavMniary
(COMUOSTB)
Reform^-'
21«
Throne appeals to the House of CommotiSy
in deliberatiDg on the most important
question of politics — ^namely, the distribu-
tion of power in a State — that they should
direst themselres of that party spirit
which, generally speaking, is the legiti-
mate and efficient, the customary and con-
stitutional, influence by which all great
public questions in this day are brought
to a satisfactory settlement. Bir, Her
Majesty's Ministers are the last men in
this House who would depreciate the im-
portance of party ; they are the last men
who would wish to derogate from its
legitimate function. In their opinion
party organization is the condition of Par-
liamenti^ government, and without it
they see no security for either efficiency or
independence in a popular assembly. Nor,
least of all. Sir, on this occasion are they
inclined in any way to refrain from ap-
pealing to the support of those with whom,
for long years of public alliance and pri-
vate friendship, they have been connected
in this House. On the contrary, they
feel — painfully and profoundly feel — that
this is the occasion of all others when they
would have most earnestly to appeal for a
continuanoe ef that support, of that con-
fidence, of that sympadiy, of that friend-
ship, and even of that forbearance on
which they before rested with assurance.
Sir, the meaning that they attribute to
those words is that, under the circum-
stances in which the House finds itself,
it was in our opinion expedient that Par-^
liamentary Beform should no longer be a
question which should decide the fate of
Ministries. Sir, we have arrived at that
conclusion with the conviction that it is
one consistent with our duty and our
honour as public men, and we hope that
the House of Commons, notwithstanding
that expression of opinion from a very
limited quarter, after duo consideration,
will also be of opinion that such a course
is compatible on their part with all those
principles and all those sentiments that
ought to influence public men. And, Sir,
we have arrived at that conclusion, that it
is not for the advantage of the country
that Parliamentary Reform should be a
question that should decide the fate of a
Ministry, that it should not be what is
commonly called a party question, for this
simple but to us irresistible reason, that all
parties in the State have attempted to deal
with it, and all parties in the State have
failed. In 1852 there was a pure Whig
Government, headed by Lord John Eussell,
2J^ Chanoethr of ih$ Exchequer
which dealt with this subjeet and
In the year 1854 there was a Coalitiox&
Government, headed by the Earl of Aber-
deen, which attempted to deal with tkis
question and failed. In the year 1859
tiiere was a Conservative Government^
headed by the Earl of Derby, whicii
attempted to deal with this question,
and failed. In the year 1860 there
was a moderate Liberal Government^
headed by Lord Palmerston, which at-
tempted to deal with this question, and
failed. In the year 1866 there was a
Government which I will not, notwith-
standing the present rage for analynsp
describe as an immoderate Liberal Govern-
ment— headed again by Earl Russell-— >
which attempted to d^ with this ques-
tion and fiuled.
There may l)e some who will urge these
circumstances as arguments to show that
the question is one which ought not to
have been dealt with, that there was no
necessitj^ whatever to draw the attention
of Parliament to its consideration. Sir,
all that I have to say on the part of my
Colleagues is that this is not the opinion
of Her M^esty's Government. In the opi-
nion of Her Majesty's Government, the
seeds for, perhaps, the most considerable
portion of those changes that we oontem*
plate, were sown in the memorable Act
of 1832. Until the Act of 1832 was
passed the claims of the labouring daases
to a share in our Parliamentary system
were acknowledged, and their rights were
enjoyed and practised. Although the
mode by which they were asserted may
not have been happily adapted to the cir-
cumstances of the present century, there
can be no doubt that those claims were
definitely acknowledged and acted upon.
Before the Act of 1832, for example, it
was possible for the labouring classes to
return both Members for Preston, a town
of now nearly 100,000 inhabitants; they
might also have returned two for the eity
of Coventry, then, as now, the seat of
an important and ingenious branch of oar
manufactures; and there were a great
many places in England in which they
exercised a considerable, if not a prepon-
derating, influence. But it was tiiought
fit at that time to abolish those rights and
privileges. I think myself— I thought so
then — that was a great error. It is fair
to admit that, as &ey were then enjoyed
and practised, those rights were, perhaps,
ill adapted to our present social state ; and
though the labouring olassest in the most
217 Bepr$imtaiim of ]Fsbbuab7 11, 1867]
the People.
218
eonnderable seats of labour, might under
the old machinery not have been repre-
sented* that was not a reason for abolish-
ing the rights, but rather for remodelling
them, and adapting them to the new cir-
cumstances with which statesmen then
had to deal. Nor, Bir, did the abolition
of those rights pass unregarded in ^this
House. Those who were the framers of
the Beform Bill, and who were supported
with enthusiasm by powerful classes, were
able then to override the objections from
influential quarters. They were warned
by some of the most eminent authorities
of this House as to the danger and im-
policy of the course they were pursuing.
The memorable words of Sir Robert Peel
on this subject are familiar to the House.
He warned the Government of the day
that in putting an end to the rights of
freemen as they then existed, and termi-
nating all those other means by which the
liouseholder in many boroughs registered
his vote and exercised it, they were em-
barking in a course which eventually must
involve them in great danger and inconve-
nience. The rights of those electors which
were then attacked were not lost for want
of advocacy — and advocacy of the highest
and ablest character — in this House. One
of the most shining lights of our time.
Sir William FoUet, brought those claims
before the House on more than one occa-
sion with that eloquence for which he
was remarkable, and that power of argu-
ment for which he was distinguished. The
rights of the existing generation were, in
another place, not only vindicated, but
saved by no less a person than Lord
Lyndhurst.
Sir, I would not, especially after men-
tdoning such names, refer to anything I
have myself expressed. Under no circum-
stance, indeed, would I refer to anything
I have said here, merely in vindication of
myself or my own conduct. But if I hate
made a decli^tion upon a public question
of importance as the organ of a party ; if
I have been requested by men of eminence
to express an opinion upon some subject
of public importance in this House, I
think it is no assumption to refer to it, not
as the expression of an individual, but, as
in a certain sense historic, as illustrative
of the conduct and opinion of a party.
Now, Sir, in 1852, when I first had the
honour of a seat on this Bench, the ques-
tion of Parliamentary Beform was then
rife, though it was then urged in a very
different spiriti and with very different ob-
jects from those which now animate its ad-
vocates. In about the first week — certainly
within the first month— of our accession
to Office, it was absolutely necessary that
we should come to a conclusion respecting
the policy we should pursue upon that
subject At that time what was called
piecemeal Beform was very much in
fashion ; and I think it was upon one of
the Motions of the hon. Member for Surrey
(Mr. Locke King), which he brought for-
ward immediately after the formation of
the Government of 1852, that it became
necessary for me to consult Lord Derby
and the most eminent of his Colleagues as
to the line we should pursue respecting
Beform. Perhaps the House will allow
me to quote one passage from what I said
on that occasion. I objected to the Motion
of the hon. Member for Surrey, my objec-
tion being a broad one — ^namely, that
Parliamentary Beform was not a subject
which ought to be treated in a piecemeal
manner ; and I said, with reference to this
Motion, and with the full concurrence of
Lord Derby and of my Colleagues —
" Bat I ha?e alio another objection to this Bill.
I have often said to this House — I repeat it now,
and it is the expression of a deep and sincere oon-
yiction on mj part — that I think in the construc-
tion of that memorable law, the Reform Act of
1832, there was % Tciy great deflcieney, which
consisted in a want of due consideration of the
rights of the working classes to the franchise. •
Under our old system, by the suffrages of the
fVeemen, the political rights of the labourer
were acknowledged by the Constitution. We
virtually destroyed those rightfe. . • . I do
not for a moment wish now to maintain that there
were not strong reasons why the existing arrange-
ments should be interfered with : but, then, I
never heard a reason why a more satis&otory
arrangement could not have been substituted in
lien of the old one. I trace mtioh of the discon*
tent in this country, which at times has been
painfully felt, with regard to the Reform Act of
1832, to the omission to which 1 have adverted.""
~[d Hansard^ cxx. 1200.]
That will at least show that the question
was one which, having been taken up
originally, when the Eeform Act was in-
troduced into this House, by a party in the
State not then successful, has since ncTcr
been entirely deserted by them. On every
fitting occasion there have been expres-
sions of opinion similar to those just
quoted; but I have read this extract be-
cause the declaration which the House has
now heard was made bv me as a Minister,
after duly consulting those with whom I
have the honour to act Measures of dis-
franchisement of this kind could not now
be tolerated ; but in 18S2 it was not diffi«
Si9
Partiamentafy
]GOUHONS)
Se/orm-^
onlfc to cany them with impunity. The
position of the labouring classes in 1832
differed from their position in 1867; but
such was the excitement produced by the
measure of 1882 in the country generally,
especially among those influential classes
who oonsiderably benefited by it, and
whose power was immensely increased by
it, that it was utterly impossible that any
policy which was projected by the authors
of the Bill of 1882 oould have been sue-
eessfuUy opposed either in this House or
by those wno, outside the House, were
more immediately interested in the ques-
tion. That, however, which Sir Eobert
Peel told the Government of Lord Grey
inevitably happened. He urged, as time
advances and the country prospers, you
will find the labouring class whose Par-
liamentary rights you are now destroying
will take the opportunity of claiming again
the privileges which you have thought-
lessly taken from them, and. for which
you offer no substitute. Bince 1832 this
country has, no doubt, made great pro-
gress. But it is during the last ten years
Uiat progress has been most remarkable.
I will not now attempt to inquire into
the causes, the particular causes, which
have brought about that great advance.
But I think I may say there is one sove-
reign cause which ia at the bottom of
everything, and that is the increased ap-
plication of science to social life. That I
believe to be the main cause of the vast
changes we have seen in the condition and
feelings of classes. We are all familiar
with the material resulta which that ap-
plication of science has produced. They
are prodigious; but, to my mind, themortd
results are not less startling. The revolu*
tion in locomotion, which would strike us
daily as a miracle if we were not familiar
with it, has given the great body of the
inhabitants of this country in some d^ree
the enlightening advantages of travel. The
mode in which steam-power is applied to
the printing press in these days produces
effects more startling than the first dis-
covery of printing in the 15th century.
It is science that has raised wages ; it is
science that has increased the desires and
the opportunities of men ; and it is science
that has ennobled labl>ur. There are some
who say its effects must be to equalize the
condition of men. That is a controversy.
I am not anxious to-night on that or any
other subject to enter into controversy ;
but this, I think, may be said — there is
no doubt that the application of science to
Ih ChtmceUorc/aiJEk^hejuir
social life has elevated the condition of all
classes.
Having said this in all sincerity, I mvLst
repudiate an opinion which is too preva-
lent, and, as I think, utterly unfounded —
the opinion that, especially in this Hooso^
the legitimate claims of the labouring claas
to their due share in the Parliamentary
system have met with vexatious opposi-
Uon, and have encountered a sinister spirit
of neglect and intentional delay. On the
contrary, Sir, forming my opinion from
what I have seen out of doors, and, I am
sorry to add, in some measure within these
walls, I should say that these claims havo
been treated rather with an Epicurean
feeling, which, anxious not to be troubled
by the settlement of a disagreeable and,
perhaps, as some think, a dangerous ques-
tion, would agree to anything for imme-
diate ease without any thought of our daty
towards those who may follow us. All I
can say of such a feeling is that I think
it more dangerous than any of those opi-
nions which perhaps to-day may have
alarmed the minds of some, and which,
if practised, would 'injure the future of
those who preach them. I have no hesi-
tation in saying that as far as I can form
an opinion, and I am sure on this head it
is an impartial one, I know of no great
question — ^no question, I mean, that largely
influences the history of this country, and
touches the principles upon which our Con-
stitution rests — which has met with less
discussion and with lesft difficulty than the
one now engaging our attention.
It is sometimes said that Parliamentary
Reform has been a Parliamentary question
for fifteen years. It is very true that the
attention of Parliament has been called
to schemes for re-constructing this House;
but I deny that these schemes were at all
adapted to supply the deficiency which wo
are now considering, or were at all con-
ceived in a spirit likely to bring about any
satisfactory result. I look upon the Bill
of 1852, introduced by Lord John Eussell,
as eminently a premature movement, for it
did not even aim at supplying the defi-
ciency to which I refer. I do not blame
Earl Russell for bringing forward that
Bill. I have vindicated him before in this
House when attacked upon that head. I
look upon the measure of 1852 as strictiy
a measure of self-defence. Lord John
Bussell, who understood the question of
Parliamentary Beform, found himself night
after night attacked, as it were, hj Mem-
bers of this House who proposed isolated
2S1 BtpmmMim of (Febbuabt 11, 1867}
the People,
223
measnres applying only to some fragmen-
fary portion of the great qnestion of Be-
fbrm. He knew the danger which might
aocme if such isolated measures were
adopted. He knew that, whether the re-
sult were democratio or oligarchic, conse-
quences might ensue from such a course
whioh would probahly startle their pro-
posers as much as anybody eke. Therefore,
Lord John Russell, after five years' cam-
paigning against his Liberal friends, found
it absolutely necessary to make some
effort for a comprehensive settlement of
the question of Parliamentary Reform.
Hon. Qentlemen rose night after night
bringing forward Motions about the bo-
rough, at another time about the county
fnancluse, then proposals which would have
completely reyolutionized the whole sys-
tem by which votes are given and recorded,
and Lord John Russell eventually proposed
a scheme to deal with these pomts. But
I beg the House to remark that the dis-
turbance of the settlement of 1832 did
not originate with Lord John Russell. It
originated entirely with the House of
Commons. It was not Lord John Russell,
or his rivals, or any body of public men,
who, when they make proposals to this
House, make them at least with a sense
of responsibility, that they may be called
on to carry them into action. That was
not the case. It was the House of Com-
mons, it was those whom we habitually
describe as independent Members, who
commenced the disturbance of the settle-
ment of 1882.
And here I would ask the House to
reflect on these two circumstances. The
origin of Parliamentary Reform as a ques-
tion in the House of Commons must be
found in the conduct of individuals— -of
independent Members of this House.
This, therefore, is a House of Commons
question ; it is not a party question. And
it is remarkable that the House of Com-
mons, having been the originators of the
disturbance of the settlement of 1832,
have defeated every attempt that has been
made by organized parties, by responsible
bodies of men, and by leaders of political
connections, to efibct a settlement of a
question which was then unsettled. I am
bringing no charge of misconduct against
any Members of the House or against the
House of Commons itself; I am speaking
historically on the subject. The House of
Commons may have been perfectly justified
in what it did. I will not enter into any
oontroreray to-night on the course whioh
it pursued. The Members of the House
may have been justified in coming forward
and sedulously attempting to disturb the
settlement of 1832. They may have been
justified in defeating any measure which
may have been brought forward by suc-
cessive Ministers to settle the points in
controversy. All that I do not deny;
but I think all must admit that the House
of Commons, with r^;ard to this question
of Parliamentary Reform, has incurred, as
it were, certain peculiar responsibilities.
They originated the question, and at the
same time they have prevented it being
settled.
Now, though few will doubt that, under
these circumstances, the House of Com-
mons itself, as independent of any parti-
cular party organization, has incurred a
general responsibility with respect to this
question, it can, I think, hardly be denied
that with regard to the present subject
the relations between this House and iho
Government are peculiarly difficult and
peiplexing; because it is to be observed
that, although the House of Commons
defeated all the five measures that were
brought forward by Lord Russell, Lord
Aberdeen, Lord Palmerston, and Lord
Derby, they did in four of these instances
permit the measure to be read a second
time; bat in the case of the Bill of Lord
Derby's Government they thought fit — I
am not going for a moment to question
the propriety of their conduct — not to
permit that measure to be read a second
time. Now I say, without the slightest
soreness on the subject, that it was the
opposition of Lord John Russell in 1859
that made Parliamentary Reform a party
question. Until the vote taken on that
occasion it was not so. Well, no man is
BO sensible of the advantages of free dis-
cussion as myself. I am edways ready to
acknowledge its practical value. I must,
therefore, repeat, and I am now going to
prove, the statement that I made just
now. I say that until 1859 Parliamen-
tary Reform was not a Parliamentary
question. When Sir Robert Peel, in
1834, was called upon to form a Govern-
ment, there was then considerable odium
raised against him owing to the insinua-
tions of what were then called sincere
Reformers — that on grounds of party
policy he would disturb the Act of 1832.
Sir Robert Peel found it impossible to
make way against these unfounded asper-
sions unless he took steps which, from
&eir grave and solemn oharaoteri would
22S
ParUammiary
(COMMONSl
Ueform-^
294
duly imprett the public mind. It was in
this HouBo, when called upon to take the
responsible position of First Minister,
under circumstances of yery great diffi-
culiy, that he made the solemn declara-
tion, with the complete assent of all his
party, that he would never seek to disturb
the settlement of 1832. And that en-
gagement was religiously observed. Al-
&ough the settlement of 1832, With all
its virtues, and I have never denied them,
was no doubt conceived and carried with
extreme party feeling, and in many of its
minor provisions highly advantageous to
the party that carried them — ^I do not
blame them for that — I say, notwith-
standing all that, the compact entered
into by Sir Robert Peel and his party was
religiously observed; and it was not ui^il
1851 and 1852, when dark rumours were
abroad as to the intentions of Lord John
Russell, who, in a very solemn manner,
in this House had pledged himself, on the
faith of the Whigs, to the principle of
finality, that the Conservative party had
to consider what course to take if Lord
John Russell should recede from that
undertaking. I believe I may say that
was a subject which was considered by
the most eminent and leading men —
many now departed or lost to us — men
held in the highest honour for their in-
tegrity and public spirit, like the lato Duke
of Richmond, Lord Gkorge Bentinck, Mr.
Bankes, and others who sat in this House
—and many who still live and were in
intimate communication with Lord Derby,
and thev came to the resolution that if
Lord Jonn Russell gave up the Act of
1832, nothing would induce them to take
up a position of opposition to Parliamen-
tary Reform. And their course has been
consistont throughout. There never was
a Bill brought forward on the subject of
which the second reading was opposed
by us.
I think I have traced the question now
at least to the relinquishment of finality ;
and I think hon. Gentlemen will agree
with me that there was no appearance of
Reform being made a party question until
that period. Many hon. Members who
sat in the House at that time are familiar
with what took place with regard to the
subsequent Bills. Now, Sir, there is no
man whose opinions on Parliamentary Re-
form are spoken of with more levity than
Lord Palmerston. Some would conclude
that Lord Palmerston was unquestionably
very Conservative in his principles; that
3%$ ChmwUor of the JBxehiqm
he was entirely opposed to any change in
our Parliamentary Constitution; and that
it was only for political convenience,
and in order to miDce necessary arrange-
ments for indispensable Colleagues, that
he ever consented to the introduction of
any measure of Reform. Now, there is
not the slightest foundation for any such
conclusion. In 1857 Lord Palmerston was
at the culminating point of his power.
He had then dissolved Parliament on the
China vote, he had scattered all his enemies
— even those who afterwards became his
friends. The Opposition, with which I was
connected, suffered, but probably less than
most portions of the House, in that penal
dissolution. Lord John Russell, a great
authority in this question, only obtained
the representetion of the City of London
as an act of courtesy, and the most power-
ful leaders now on the subject of Parlia-
mentary Reform lost their seate in this
House on that occasion. Lord Palmerston
had, accordingly, an indisputeble majority.
He had none in his Cabinet at that mo-
ment— though all men whom he respected
— ^in a position to dictete a policy to Lord
Palmerston. The House met in the autumn
of the same year ; it was absolutely unneces-
sary for Lord Palmerston to introduce the
question of Parliamentary Reform, and yet
he recommended it in the Speech from the
Throne. What happened in 1858? Lord
Palmerston, who was supposed to be a Mi-
nister supported by the most powerful ma-
jority that ever appeared in Parliament,
suddenly lost his pride of place, within
twelve months of his triumphant dissolu-
tion ; and when Lord Palmerston left ofice,
he was so sensible that '' some settiemenf
—as the fjGishionable phrase was then — was
required, that he said if his successor, Lord
Derby, would give his earnest attention
to the subject, and could see his way to
bringing forward a moderate and well-
considered measure, Lord Derby might be
certain it would receive from him a fair
and candid consideration. Well, Sir, Lord
Derby did not conceive that, if he brought
forward such a measure, he could count
upon any enthusiastic support from his
opponents. All parties had not then tried
their hand in vain ; and no circumstances
had then occurred which could justify a
Minister in advising the Crown to appeal
to Parliament to consider this question
not as a party question. Lord Derby,
however, did think that he was not putting
too favourable an interpretetion upon an
undertaking that bis ^orto sho^d ro*
325 Siprewniatim tf {Febbvabt U^ 1867}
the People,
22e
eeive a £ur and candid consideration,
when he condaded that if he did bring
forward a measure, prepared with care
and labour, it should at least be read a
secodd time and receive a fair considera-
tion from Parliament. But that did not
proTO to be the case, Notwithstanding
this declaration of Lord Palmerston, and
notwithstanding the efforts that Lord
Palmerston made, the House of Commons
set at defiance his authority, and a private
Member brought forward an Amendment
which gave a totally different colour to
the conduct of the House. And who
was that individual ? Why, it was Lord
John Bussell. Lord John Bussell then
sat below the gangway; he was not a
Member of the Government that had re-
tired from Office ; he was not then a proxi*
mate Minister, He occupied, indeed, a
commanding position, such as a man of his
achievements, high character, and talents
always would command in this House;
but he was then in the position of a
private Member of Parliament. Well,
the House of Commons followed Lord John
Bussell, so that it was again the House
of Commons that came forward, and by
that vote made it, I say, a party question.
I do not object to the conduct of Lord
John Bussell. I am not contending
about the decision which the House
arrived at, as far as the decision itself
was concerned, on the Bill of 1859; but
this I do say, that it was a ver^ great
responsibility on the part of the Hx>use of
Commons to throw out that Bill, and then,
when they had forced a change of Ministry,
to be unable to carry their opinions into
effect.
Sir, I have thus shown that the posi-
tion of the House of Commons, with regard
to this question of Parliamentary Beform,
is different from that which exists between
the House generally and all other great
questions, which are introduced and ini-
tiated in this House by a body of men
who are in the possession of office, or who
are candidates for .office, and who there>*
fore ought not to shrink from tlie responsi-
bility of carrying their opinions into effect.
I have shown that the House of Com-
mons, as regards the present Ministry and
.that particular subject, is in a very per-
plexing position, and ttds position increases
its responsibility. For, with the greatest
respect — without the slightest desire of
giving offence to any Member of the
House, which would be foreign to my
nature— I must at once say that the coun-
YOLt CLXXXV. [thi«o sbuxs.]
try upon this question cannot bear a
repetition of the mancBUvres of 1859. It
cannot endure that a measure should be
thrown out upon some cunning or cap-
tious point of detail, and that then those
who have incurred the responsibility
should shrink from fulfilling tiieir duty
by carrying a meaE|ure on this subject.
Well, then, we have to consider, under tiiese
difficult circumstances, what is the course
that we ought to undertake ; and. Sir, it
does appear to us — considering that the
House of Commons itself disturbed the set-
Uement of 1832, considering that the House
itself on five different occasions baffled the
efforts of five Governments to secure that
re-settlement which they have rendered
necessary, considering also that with
regard to those who at present sit on
these Benches the House has prevented
any measure which they brought foward
from being submitted to criticism in detaU
by allowing it to go into Committee,
and thus frustrated the fulfilment of the
expectations of the country when they ac-
ceded to power — it does seem to us that in
a position of so much difficulty it is wise
to reflect whether there is not some^ course
that should be pursued which, without
diminishing the aue responsibility of Mi-
nisters, would, at least, insure the House
upon this question from such unfortunate
mishaps as have on previous occasions
been experienced by Governments that
have attempted to deal with this question.
It does seem to us that this is, from the
causes that I have recapitulated, one of
those cases— of great difficulty, no doubt,
and surrounded by circumst^ces of exi-
gency which cannot be denied — which
have been contemplated by the wisdom of
our Parliamentary practice ; and that we
are pursuing only a constitutional course
when we presume to recommend to the
House that before we introduce a BiU we
may be permitted, upon its main principles,
and upon other points of great and para-
mount importance, to ask the opinion of
the House, and see whether they will
sanction the course which we recommend.
That, Sir, is a course which we believe to
be, under the circumstances, strictly con-
stitutional. It is a course which we be-*
lieve ought not to be resorted to, unless
the circumstances are circumstances of
exigency; and when we appeal to the
House to permit us to adopt that course,
we say, without thrusting our individual
feelings upon the House, that in so acting
we are impelled by as pure a sense of
327
Parliameniarff
iCOUHOKSt
Ssform-^
3SS
public duty as ever influenced any body of
men.
Sir, I will not notice the first and sove-
reign objection which may be urged, under
ordinary circumstances, to a proposition of
proceeding by way of Besolution in this
House ; because, if the circumstances to
which I have now fully adverted, if the
relations of the House to this subject of
Parliamentary Beform, if the necessity of
bringing this question to a settlement, are
not sufficient, I have no arguments to
urge. But there are other objections to
that course which have been offered, and
on which for a moment I will dwell. It
is said that there are disadvantages in pro-
ceeding by way of Resolution, indepen-
dent of the great constitutional objection
which nothing but exigency could OTcrride,
and the first is that to proceed hj Besolu-
tions induces delay. Well, Sir, m answer
to that I. say, with great respect, that I do
not think proceeding by Reoolutions does
induce delay. I have no doubt that there
may be circumstances in which men, or
even the House, not unwilling to trifie
with a^uestion might lose a great deal of
time upon Resolutions, and take steps
which would make consequent legislation
impossible, at least for that Session. But,
Sir, assuming a case such as that which
exists, and that the Resolutions are brought
forward by a Ministry as the basis of legis-
lation to which they will be prepared to
froceed when the Resolutions ore passed,
cannot myself believe that there is any-
thing even in the theory of Resolutions
wHich leads to delay. It is very true that
you seem to do twice what, under ordinary
circumstances, it might be necessary only
to do once ; but, then, the House knows
very well that the discussions on principles
which take place upon the second reading
of a Bill, and upon all the various Amend-
ments which opposition in the case of public
measures gives opportunity for — that all
those discussions are anticipated by the dis-
cussions on Resolutions, and that you may
very well pair the discussions upon Resolu-
tions against the discussions upon all the
vitalpointsofameasure. Practically, more-
over, I do not find that proceeding by Reso-
lutions upon great and important subjects,
where otherwise there would be circum-
stances of great difficulty, has led to delay.
The instances are not numerous, because
the House has rarely adopted that method,
and of course I am only referring to cir-
eumstances of an extraordinarv character,
not to oases where we are obliged by the
The Ciancelhr of the JSh^^ejuer
orders of the House to have recourse to it ;
but on looking over the few instances that
are recorded in the Journals of the House^
it does not appear to me that proceeding
by Resolutions has induced delay. Of
this, at least, I am certain, that it has, I
think, in every instance been followed by
successful legislation, and that, generally
speaking — indeed, with scarcely an excep-
tion—in the very year in which the Reso-
lutions have been brought forward. The
case of the India Resolutions is the last
instance, and one with which we are all
familiar ; but I may remind those who
were not then Members of the House, that
there was a very strong struggle upon that
measure. In that case, if my memory is
not incorrect, between the passing of the
last Resolution and the third rending of
the India Bill the interval was only a
month. Therefore, I do not think that
the House upon refiection will object to
proceed by Resolution on the groundless
assumption that it will produce delay, if
the House, should agree, to the principle I
have previously advanced, that there are
circumstances of extraordinary exigency
which necessitate that course. Then it is
said that Resolutions are vague. WeUp
Sir, I admit that Resolutions must be
vague to a certain extent and in a certain
sense. If you would produce Resolutions
with all the precision of clauses in a Bill,
there would not be the slightest necessity
to go into Committee on Resolutions. The
object of Resolutions is to obtain the opi-
nion of the House upon the main princi-
ples on which your measure should be
founded ; and, upon all other questions in
which the main principles are not con-
cerned, but which may be of vast import-
ance, to obtain the opinion of the House,
and defer to that opinion if it does not ap-
prove them. With regard to the applica-
tion of the principles to details, of course
it would be the duty of the Government
to submit with pleasure and readiness to
all suggestions made by the House which
might lead to a more p^fect and complete
measure.
Well, Sir, upon the ground of delay,
I trust that our course will not be op-
posed. With regard to the vagueness
of Resolutions, I will say this, that if a
Ministry are determined, if the Resolutions
are carried, to introduce a Bill, there is
no body of men more interested in the
precision of the Resolutions than the Go-
vernment itself. It is not our interest to
bring forward vague Resolutions, Wo
S99 BipreBmUiHm of {Tebbvaxt ll, 1867]
ih Pioph.
880
wtnt to get ftom .the Hooae mioh a sane-
tio& of our riewBy and saeh aasutance hy
the ezpreanon of their owHi as that we
can hnng in a Bill which will pass with
promptitade. And therefore th^e vague
Reeolutions are exactly what we ahould
aToidy as they would not asnat us in our
oourae. I want to meet this question
fairly, heoanse I am sure it will facilitate
our fbture course if we can arrive as soon
as possible, and as much as possible, at a
mutual understanding. I will take one
of the most difficult questions which can
occur in the Besolutions. Our first Eeso-
Intion probably must refer to the exten-
sion of the suffrage. Well, if I bring
fortrard a Eesolution which merely de-
dares that it is expedient that there diould
be an extension of the suffinge in counties
and boroughs, I should call that a vague
Besolution. The House is agreed, and
has agreed, not only in this but in pre«
ceding Houses, and in an unmistakable
manner, that tiiere should be a conside-
rable extension of the sufihige in counties
and boroughs' ; but the House, certainly
not this House, has never yet formally
stated the mode by which the extension
should take place. But if a Besolution is
brought forward proposing the mode by
which extension should take place, either
by the creation of other franchises or the
redaction of existing tenures of franchise,
why then you have a Besolution which
advances the question. If, however, I am
asked, as I am told I shall be asked, who*
ther it is not useless to bring forward Be-
solations on such a question as the fran-
chise without defining and describing
minutely the qualification, then I say that
is an unreasonable condition. I say an
unreasonable condition, because it is a
oo&dition impossible for any GK>vemment
to comply with. If you propose a Beso-
lution which declares that it is expedient
the fininohise should be extended by its
teductioD-*-that is a principle which, when
laid down, cannot be misunderstood. But
how are you to settie the amount of the
franchise? Take your borough franchise
—how can you fix in your Besolution,
even if you agree to the principle of its
rednotbn, the amount of your franchise,
when that mnst depend upon principles
not less important than the extension
itself? I wish to illustrate this point.
The amount of the franchise depends
»pon many consideiationa, but it de-
pends naiaiy upon one priac^de of the
giMtest impostanosy and that u a prinoi^
pie on which this House has given an
equivocal and ambiguous decision; yet
without a right appreciation and a clear
conception of which it is impossible to
make any propoAil to the House which
can lead to a practical result. I mean the
basis upon which your franchise shall rest
—namely, the principle of rating. Until
you decide what shall be the basis of your
franchise, how is it possible in a Besolu*
tion to come forward and recommend a
particular amount? I mention this be-
cause it may be thrown in our teeth if we
do not propose the exact amount of the
borough franchise that we are trifling
with the subject, but I say that it is
utterly impossible if you proceed by Be-
solution. Ton must have a Besolution to
decide whether the basis of your franchise
is to be rating or not. I will not trouble
the House with too many details of the
character of the Besolutions, which, if the
House will give me the opportunity, I in*
tend to propose. They will be, I hope, in
the hands of Members to-morrow morning;
but, perhaps, the House will permit me
to advert to one or two points upon which
I think it highly important this House
should come to a clear and unequivocal
decision. And I must say that I am anx«
ious the House shall decide on what prin*
ciple they mean to construct the House of
Commons. Do they mean to re-construct
it on the principle of the English Consti-
tution ; or do they mean to re-construct it
on the principles of the Constitution of
any other country ? I think it very im-
portant that this question shall be de-
cided.
Now, Sir, Her Majesty's Government
intend, if they can, and if this House
will allow them, to re-construct this
House on the principles of the English
Constitution. I will not advert to any
remarks which I may have made before
on this subject, or, at least, I should like
not to advert to them, because it is painful
to repeat oneself; but it is better to be
wearisome than to be ambiguous on this
subject. We think that the English
Constitution is not a mere phrase. We
believe that we live under a monarchy,
modified in its action by the co-ordinate
authority of Estates of the Bealm, and
we look upon the Commons of England,
whom we represent, as one of those Es-
tates. Sir, I know it has been said that
this is merely an arobsdologioal view of
the Constitution of England ; but I think
I can i^ow the House that they will be
iai
Patliammtary
(COUUONS)
Refi
very unwise if they quit, without due
ooDsideration, the ancient traditiona of the
polity under which they liye, and under
whi<m this country has so singularly
flourished. Undoubtedly, under the great
vicissitudes of centuries, the relations
between the Estates of the Bealm in this
country have greatly altered and changed.
Ko doubt, the Commons whom we repre-
sent have absorbed the greater part of the
authority which those Estates once them*
selves exercised ; but I think I can show
the House that this is no reason why we
should forget the constitutional scheme
under which this country has so long
prospered, but rather, if deeply and fairly
considered, why we should cling to that
scheme as our only sunriving guide against
the impending perplexities that surround
us. 1^0 doubt, the Commons of England,
by the immense increase of population
and property, have assumed a character
with reference to the other Estates which
never was contemplated in the days of
the Plantagenets and the Tudors. But
it is a very great error to suppose that
it is merely the increase of population
and property on the part of the Commons
which has brought about the present form
of the English Constitution and the pre-
sent character and functions of tiie House
of Commons. Take one of l^ese Estates.
Take the Peerage of England. That is a
very powerfal body. It is probably the
wealthiest body in the world, and it pos-
sesses particularly the kind of property
which is most popular in England, because
it is a tenure connected with the fulfilment
of duties — I mean the land. IJor are the
power and influence of the Peerage to be
measured by their property. ' Their social
influence— I use the word in a lai^ sense
—-their national influence, is yery great.
I have often myself felt tlutt the power of
the Peerage is greater in eyery part of
England than in their own House. What,
then, has placed the Commons of England
in the commanding position which they
now occupy ? It is the doTelopment of
our financial Constitution. It is the claim
that we asserted two centuries ago-^par-
tially recognised then, and now completely
established, which has practicidly placed
in this House the taxing power. That is
the cause of the position and character of
the Commons of England. The moment
that power was established, every class,
every interest in this counhy, soaght ra>
presentation in this House, and naturally,
because in this House alone can they
Th9 Chancellor ofihe B»ch$pm
defend their rights an4 their property.
People complain of the influence, the
undue influence, of the Peerage, in the
House of Commons. Why, Sir, the in*
fluence of the Peerage in the House of
Commons is not a usurpation of our rights:
it is a deference to our authority. And
so it is with all interests. Here they oome
because here power is reposed, and it is
here only that they can be guarded in
respect to the exercise of that power by
the presence of their representatives. The
consequence is tiiat every class and eyery
interest has sought, and to a certain de*
gree has obtain^, representation in this
House. That is the cause of the yariety
of our character. But is it the variety of
our character that has given us our delibe-
rative power ? It is our deliberatiye power
that has given us our hold upon the Execa*
tiye; and it is this hold upon the Execa*
tive which is the beet, ay, the only security
for our freedom.
Well, Sir, Her' Majesty's Oovemment
can counsel and countenance no conise
that will diange that varied character of
the House of Commons; they respect
and reverence the causes which haye
eleyated a rude popular Assembly of the
days of the Plantiqg;enets into a Senate
which commands the admiration of tlie
world. We do not flnd that there is any se-
curity for retaining that character unless we
oppose a policy which giyes to any class in
this country — I care not whether it be
high or low, whether it be influenoed by a
democratical or by an oligarchical feeling
— ^a preponderant power in this Honse.
And therefore, in any measures that we
may bring forward, we shall assert that
the electiye franchise must be regarded as
a popular privilege, and not as a demo-
cratic right. If, Sir, we wanted to see
what are the consequences of allowing one
class in a popular Assembly to haye a
preponderating influence, what is passing
in the world at the present time is fmitM
of instruction. I never presume to criti*
cize the institutions of other States. In-
deed, I hold, and hold most sincerelyt as a
general principle, that the institutions of
every country are pretty well adapted to
the population who live under them. Bat,
take the instance of our nearest neigh-
bour. There is France, in the very van of
civilisation, perhaps — ^if I were not in the
House of Commons and in England I
might even venture to 8ay-*the first of
European nations, inferior to none in yit*^
city of mind| in acute intelleo^ in wonde^
B3S SsprumiiUian of |Feb&itabt llj 1867) *
the PiopU.
234
fill peneveranoe, and in that patriotio
fbeling which always follows. Well, this
gifted nation has a popular Assembly, and
it is elected by nniversal suffrage. Does
any one pretend that the Legislative As-
sembly of France is equal in European con-
sideration to the House of Commons ? If
there be any Englishman who thinks that
the Legislative Assembly of France can
claim that position, I am sure there 4s no
Frenchman who does so. But it may be as-
serted that our institutions are not suited
to a Latin race, and that the Constitution of
France was suddenly and rudely invented
under circumstances of disorder and dis-
turbance. Well, then take the case of
the United States of America. There you
have a Hoase of Eepresentatives, framed
by the children of our loins, and certainly
nnder the inspiration of as pure a patriot-
ism as ever existed. That also is elected
by universal suffrage. Bat does anyone
contend that the House of Representatives
at Washington can equal in authority the
House of Commons? And what is the
caase of this ? Why, no doubt the Ame-
rican nation is inferior to us in no point ;
it is of the same blood, the same brains,
the same intelligence, of equal energy,
perhaps of more enterprize ; but the
House is elected by one class; there is
no variety in it. And so the Legislative
Assembly of America, like that of France,
can neither of them rule the country in
which it is established. I would hardly
venture to refer to another case, but there
is one further example for our guidance.
You have now a German Parliament in-
stituted. Now, I am proud of our coun-
trymen, but I do not suppose there is any
man in this House at this moment who
will pretend that for intellectual power
we are superior to the German nation.
That gifted people have now a Parlia-
ment; that Parliament is elected by uni-
versal suffrage, and we find that the Mi-
nisteiB of the King are not to sit in it.
Thus we have these extremely popular and
representative institutions elected by one
preponderating class ; and what do we see
are the consequences? Why, that the
Assembly loses all that which we believe,
and justly believe, to be the characteristic
of the House of Commons. It loses it from
the want of that variety of elements which
gives various wisdom, various knowledge,
deliberative power, and, by deliberative
power, such a moral command over society
that it willingly intrusts to it a great por-
tion of the Executive of the country.
Well, Sir, with these views, considering
the doctrines that are now preached, the
violent, the thoughtless, the pernicious doc-
trines which are now circulated, we cannot
pretend to enter upon the laborious and
responsible task which we are otherwise
willing to undertake, unless the House
of Commons will, by some Eesolution, de«
dare an opinion in harmony with the
general sentiment I have now expressed.
There are other subjects on which I think
it is of the utmost importance that the
House should come to a decision, and by
its coming to a decision upon which sub-
sequent legislation may be greatly facili-
tated. I need refer but slightly to the
principle to which I have adverted as the
basis of our legislation on the franchise—
namely, the principle of rating. I admit
that in the year 1859, having endeavoured
to bring forward a scheme which founded
our suffrage on that principle, I was re-
luctantly obliged to give it up, the diffi-
culties were then so great, the anomalies
so glaring, and the consequences to which
it would have led so absurd. But since
that time the course of legislation in this
House has greatly lessened those diffi-
culties. A Bill introduced by the right
hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. C. P.
Yilliers) on the subject of union rating,
has greatly contributed to this result. But
I hope that to-night my hon. Friend the
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hunt) will
have an opportunity of bringing in a mea-
sure which will entirely remove all the
remaining difficulties connected with this
matter. Under these circumstances, we
trust the House will assent to a Eesolu-
tion affirming that rating shall be the basis
of the franchise.
Sir, there are one or t^o other points
to which, if I am not wearying the
House, I should like to allude. Among
them is one of the most difficult of
all questions — namely, the distribution
of seats. Now, upon that subject there
are two schools of opinion, which are as
much at variance as upon the subject of
the franchise itself. There is a school that
would re-construct the electoral map of
England. We hear sometimes that the
map of Europe is to be re-constructed.
There is also a school in this country
which would re-construct the electond
map of England. On the other hand,
there are those who approach this ques-
tion with great hesitation. They find an
ancient and complex arrangement, but, at
the same time, one which| for a consider-
285
ParUammtary
{COMMONS!
Ss/onn —
1&36
able period, has contributed, as they think,
to the representation of a country like
England, having a variety of interests, with
fiuccess. It is impossible in this country to
think on this subject and not to be struck
by the apparently providential manner in
which an almost obscure island in the days
of the Norman Kings, with but a limited
population and slight resources, has de-
veloped itself into a magnificent and un-
paralleled Empire. Through the rude
institutions of the Plantagenets and Tu-
dors, however, the means have been found
of representing interests so vast, so various,
BO infinitely complex, as those which are
bound up with the England of the present
day. Those who are impressed with that
conviction will, I am sure, concur with
me in the opinion that upon the question
of the re-distribution of seats we must pro-
ceed with the utmost circumspection. Any
attempt to portion, according to certain
symmetrical arrangements, the representa-
tion of the country would probably end in
altering the character of this House, and,
by altering its character, deprive it of its
authority. I think that before we intro-
duce our Bill we have a right to ask the
House to give us their opinion upon, and
I hope their sanction to, certain principles
upon which we propose to act. One of
those principles is that no borough should,
80 far as the re-distribution of seats is
concerned, be wholly disfranchised. We are
in favour of this principle for two reasons.
We look upon it, m the first place, as wise
and necessary that the representation of
the country should, 'as far as lies in our
power, be distributed ; and we regard it
as unwise and unnecessary to disturb any
centre of representation, because it is im-
possible, in an age of rapid growth, when
communities so rapidly rise and vanish,
when the changes and alterations of so-
cial arrangements are so evanescent, to
proceed with too much circumspection.
Speaking, then, for myself and my Col-
leagues, we are of opinion that no borough
should be wholly disfranchised so far as
the re-distribution of seats is concerned —
for I am far from saying that if bribery be
proved to exist in a borough, as we have
reason to fear and believe it may be in
the case of some — we ought to show our-
selves more deficient in spirit than our
predecessors, and I trust, under such cir-
cumstances, we should know how to act.
Our main — mind, I do not say our sole —
consideration, in altering the apportion-
ment of the representation would, in the
The Chancellor of the JEscchejuer
second place, be to supply representatives
to places now unrepresented, but which,
are, from a variety of causes, entitled to
the privilege. These are the two princi-
ples by which we would be guided on the
question of the re-distribution of seats; and
unless we have from the House their
sanction with respect to these two points
all our arrangements must prove peifectly
useless, for hon. Members must feel that
we might then have an Amendment on the
second reading of the Bill which we might
introduce, founded, perhaps, on the case
of some obscure borough, but so ingeniously
worded that the fate of the measure might
depend upon it. I have to apologize to
the House for having gone so much into
detail — although I have endeavoured to
confine myself to those Resolutions which
appeared to me to involve large princi-
ples; but there is another point on which
I think it my duty to touch slightly — a
point with which it has been found diffi-
cult to deal, which is a very important
element in the settlement of this question
of Eeform, and upon which I venture to
say a greater amount of misapprehension
exists than almost upon any other — I allude
to the subject of boundaries.
Now, I have, on more than one occasion^
not completely, but casually, expressed the
views which I entertain upon this subject.
It is really a vital subject, and one, it ap-
pears to me, on which no dissension ought
to prevail, for if clearly understood there
would be, I imagine, scarcely any room for
a difference of opinion in regard to it. Un-
fortunately, however, it is not clearly un-
derstood, and it has had raised in connection
with it objections which have had a very
considerable effect on the House, although
they are objections based upon false data,
and supported by false reasoning. If I
a^ain remind hon. Members of the salient
facts of the case, it is because I am anxioas
to place a distinct picture before their
minds. The amount of the population
dwelling in counties is 11,500,000, and
that population is represented in the
House of Commons by 162 Members.
9,500,000 is the extent of the popula-
tion living in boroughs, and the number
of Members representing it within these
walls is 334. Now, one would naturally
say, at the first glance, that there is nothing
unreasonable in the 11,500,000 asking the
House of Commons that, as they have but
a very small share of the representation,
the enjoyment of their rights should at least
not be interfered with by the 9,500,000 in
SS7 JbprmnUifon qf [Fsbzvaxx li» 1867]
thePeoph,
288
boroughs. Hon. Members must, it seems
to me, feel the justice of that appeal. We
know that since 1882 the population of
boroughs has greatlj increased, and that
they have passed the borough boundaries
to the extent of millions. The population
of the counties has also considerably in-
creased ; but they are on that account all
the more anxious for the due enjoyment
of their privileges. The population of
towns, however, has, I repeat, passed their
boundaries in millions, and if you greatly
reduce, as we propose to do, the franchise
in counties, a large proportion of the popu-
lation of boroughs will become county
electors. Well, the 11,500,000 with 162
Members look on that as rather hard, for
they naturally think that the surplus popu-
lation of the boroughs ought to be con-
tented with their 334 Members. This is
not an idle apprehension or unfounded
complaint on their side. If you reduce
to-morrow, as you will do if you follow
our advice, the county franchise, you will
have half the town of Halifax — 1 give
this as a mere illustration — ^nl>t more dis-
tinct from the other half than the City of
Westminster is from the City of London
— supplyiog a large body of electors to
the county of Yorkshire. Why should not
that body of men vote for a candidate with
whom all their sympathies, local and
municipal, are bound up? And are the
11,500,000, with only 162 Members, to
be visited by an invasion that wUl still
further materially diminish their privilege
in sending men representing their views
to Parliament ? In my opinion, the ques-
tion is one about which there ought to be
no controversy ; but there is, nevertheless,
with respect to it a great controversy, a
bitter controversy, which, like all great
and bitter controTersies, arises from an
ignorance of the subject to which the
argument relates. It is contended that no
revision of the boundaries between bo-
roughs and counties must be attempted,
because it would be difficult rigidly and
severely to distinguish one class of popu-
lation from the other. Now, to do tiiiis
is not only difficult, it is impossible.
Ko one ever contemplated such a di-
vision* Those populations must to a cer-
tain degree blend, and it is desirable
they should blend. But cases of great
injustice like that I* have mentioned—-
and there are twenty such cases which
I could name— should not, therefore, be
allowed to pass without a remedy, and the
remedy, I maintain, can be rendered per-
fectly consistent with that natural blend-
ing to which I just now referred. The
great objection, however, which is urged
against a revision of boundaries — and I put
it, I hope, fairly in its naked form, for I
have no wish to cast a veil over it — is that
it is a plan which, if adopted with other
schemes of an analagous though not so im-
portant a character, such as giving repre-
sentatives to some boroughs, would throw
the 162 county Members entirely into the
hands of the landlords, their tenants, and la-
bourers. ["Hear, hear!"] Well, you accept
that proposition ? I am sorry for you, for
it is a totally erroneous proposition. This
is a case of great importance, and I do not
think that any part of a future Eefbrm
Bill can be really more important, or more
to the interest of both parties clearly to
understand. In the 11,500,000 of popu-
lation to which I have referred, there will,
no doubt, be a considerable diminution, if
our propositions are adopted. We shall
propose to enfranchise boroughs which
may diminish that amount by hundreds of
thousands. 'Jdiere would then still remain
in England a vast number of towns which
by no wise scheme of Parliamentary re-
presentation can be or ought to be enfran-
chised. I giye you the advantages of all
their population, and still there remaid in
England, as appears by the evidence on
the table, what is termed, in the technical
language of statistics, a scattered or village
population which does not live in towns,
even of towns of 1,500 population, and
which amounts to upwards of 9,000,000,
being equal to the amount of the popula-
tion of all the represented boroughs of
England. But you say that this is only
composed of landlords, farmers, and la-
bourers, and why care for them ? The
landlords, farmers, and labourers are regis-
tered in the Census, and still form alone
the most important class in England from
their property and numbers combined.
That class comprises 2,000,000 of the
population, and if you take away all the
landlords, fanners, and labourers, what is
your duty to the 7,000,000 of the popula-
tion that remains in the counties, and what
are those 7,000,000 of population ? They
are the backbone of the country. I say
that for independence, industry, for the
comparative simplicity of their lives, and,
whatever mny be their creed, whether
Churchman or Dissenter, for their deep
and sincere religious convictions, there is
no part of the population more deserving
of esteem. On ^is subject of the popu-
899
Parliammtary
(COUVOlfSl
Jf0fOfV^^
S40
lation of the oonnties there does exist in
this enlightened metropolis a deg;ree of
want of information whioh is perfectly as-
tonishing. I do not like to refer to some
opinions which have heen lately cironlated
hy one who has always heen my political
opponent while in this House, hut whom
I have always respected, and more than
respected, who, I think, was a great ho-
nour to this House, and whose memorahle
achievements should never he forgotten.
Still I was astonished to learn from that
high authority that the cause of all the
discontent prevailing in England on the
suhject of the representation of the peo-
ple was the enfranchisement of the farmers
of this country some thirty or forty years
ago. I think that I have rather indicated to-
night, at the heginning of my task, the
real cause of the dissatisfaction at the pre*
sent day with respect to the Reform Act
of 1832. It has not heen caused hy the
enfranchisement of the farmers of England,
hut hy the disfranchisement of the work-
men of England. On the ^uhjeot of the
two kinds of population to which I was
adverting, the most extraordinary want of
information appears to exist. Look to
those 7,000,000 of your population which
I just now alluded to. Who are they ?
Among them are ancient freeholders of
England, to whom we are indebted for our
public liberties. Without referring to
historical recollections, but speaking only
in reference to the latest and greatest poli-
tical measure — the passing of the Reform
Act| which, when I fint entered the
House, was never mentioned except with
enthusiasm, hut is now only named with
contumely; — I say, it was the freeholders
of England in the counties of England who
carried that measure. There are among
those 7,000,000 of the population I have
adverted to, 300,000 and more freeholders.
If you look to the amount of the county
constituency, and if yon take away the
100,000 of occupying tenants, as well as
all those freeholders who vote for the
counties in respect of freeholds in boroughs,
you will find that you take away two-fifths
of the county electoral body, and you leave
more than 300,000 freeholders, who,
among the 7,000,000 of population I have
mentioned, seem utterly unknown by this
House, and not only by this House, but
by men occupying the highest position in
the State. When I ask justice for those
freeholdem I am told in return I want to
eliminate all the independence and all the
intelligence of the oonnties. I have nerer
2^ Chancellor of the Exchequer
reoommended any violent destmotion of
the existing electoral scheme in ord«r that
adequate representation might be given to
those men, because I felt the disturbance
would do them Ux more harm than good ;
but if there are to be only 162 oounty re-
presentatives in this country, merely gra-
dually increasing in number when oppoT^
tunities may occur — ^if that is to be the
principle of your system, then yon are
bound to let this part of the population
enjoy the rights which the GonsUtutioa
intended, and to provide that the oonnty
Members should be elected by the county
population and not by the borough popola-
tion, which also has the power to elect
Members to this House. Under these cir-
cumstances, the Government have prepared
a Resolution which wiU propose a course
calculated, we hope, to do justice on thia
long- vexed question, as, when calmly con-
sidered, it will be acknowledged to be
founded on principles of truth and equity.
I hope no opposition will be offered to the
course we propose, and that we at last
shall reconcile this great portion of the
people to our new arrangements by making
them feel that they are no longer debarred
from the enjoyment of the privileges which
the Constitution meant to give them.
Why, the other day a rampant orator, who
goes about the country maligning men and
things, attacked the House of Commoua
under the thin veil of a lecture on the
reign of Charles I., and after alluding to
two illustrious men who then existed,
went out of his way to assail me, saying,
** Where now are the 4,000 freeholders of
Buckinghamshire ? " Why, Sir, they are
where you would natundly expect to
find them. They are in the county of
Buckingham. I can pardon this wild
man, who has no experience of life,
having probably always UTod in the clois-
ters of some college, making these mis-
takes; but I cannot pardon grave and emi-
nent statesmen falling into the error of
describing the tenant farmers as the pre-
ponderatmg portion of the county consti*
tuencies. There is no subject on which
so much exaggeration exists as on the
subject of occupying tenants in counties.
They never at any time exceeded one-fifth
of the constituency, and that number is
divided between the two great parties in
the State. How, therefore, is it possible
that they can exercise the influence which
is alleged } In my own county, where,
according to the lecturer, there are nothing
but tenant farmers^ there happens to be,
941 Sspr&Bmidiion of [VesxaJiRr 11, 1967)
ih$ People*
942
in a constituenoy of 6,000, onlj 1|200 '
reg:i8tered ooonpjing tenanto. But you
will not do justice to the county consti-
tuency, because you haye been induced to
belieye extravagant representations.
I have thus, Sir, endeavoured as far as I
could to place before the House the course |
which Her Majesty's Government propose
to take upon this great question, which
has been so long discussed, and the discus-
sion upon which they feel it so necessary
to bring to a conclusion-— I hope, a satis-
factory one. I have stated not only the
course which Her Majesty's Government
propose to the House, and which tbey
earnestly hope the House will adopt, but
I have abo endeavoured to convey to them
so far as I could, without reserve, the
spirit in which these Besolutions are
framed. I say ** without reserve," because
I could have signified our policy and waited
for discussions upon the matter; but I
thought it would rather facilitate our pro-
ceedings if I did without reserve impress
on the House the general principles on
which we wish to act, and the spirit in
which we do act. Do not let the House
suppose that we are asking them to go
into Committee and allow us to propose
Besolutions because we are angling for a
policy. We are not angling for a policv.
We have distinct principles which will
guide us, and which we wish the House
to sanction. But there are several subjects
besides those which I have indicated, if
not of equal still of very great importance
in the happy settlement of this question,
upon which it would be desirable that the
opinion of the House should be given;
and on these subjects we should defer to
the opinion of the House. If we go into
this Committee to move Besolutions, in
the application of those principles we should
consult in every way the sense and accept
the suggestions of the House. And
although we are not prepared in any way
to shrink from the leading principles of
the policy that we hope may be sanctioned,
we still believe that on a question of this
paramount importanoe, if the House deigns
to co-operate with us and come into
council with us, many suggestions of great
value win be made which may add to the
fulness and completion of the consumma-
tion. I can only say on the part of my
Colleagues that Uiose suggestions will be
received not merely with candour, but, if
found to deserve the acceptance of the
House and appear for the public advantage,
they will be accepted with gratitude. We
shall enter into the Committee and avail
ourselves of all that the learning, the genius,
the experience of the House can suggest
for the solution of this question ; and to all
we shall give a cordisd and a candid de<
ferenoe. The course we adopt is not one
flattering to ourselves [Ironioal ehoors] ;
but it is more flattering to assist, however
humbly, in effecting that which he thinks
is for the public good than to bring for-
ward mock measures which he knows the
spirit of party will not pass. And let me
tell the Member for Birmingham, who
gave me that ironical cheer, that there are
others besides himself who think that it is
desirable that this question should be set-
tled, but who wish it to be settled in the
spirit of the English Constitution. Of
course, it would be yery agreeable to us to
bring forward at once a complete measure,
backed by a confiding majority, and hav-
ing the assurance of settling a question
which engages the attention of a great
nation. None of my Colleagues pretend
to be superior to
'* The last inflrmitjr of noble mindi."
But, Sir, this is not a time in which we
are to conaidor the complacency of Minis-
ters, or even the' pride of parties. I
earnestly hope that the House of Commons
will rise to this occasion. I earnestly
hope that the House of Commons, in
unison with that gracious Speech which
Her Majesty delivered to her Parliament,
authorized by antecedent circumstances,
and urged by the necessity of the case,
will divest itself of party feeUng, and
give her Ministers on this, if on no other
occasion, the advantage of their co-opera-
tion and their cordial support.
Sir, some sharp things have been said
about the House of Commons since we
parted in the summer — some sharp things,
not with reference merely- to its present
character, but to its past conduct, which I
thought had been accepted, sanctioned, and
embidmed by history. I do not doubt
that this human institution is not free from
the imperfections of humanity. It is
possible that there may have been periods
when the integrity even of the House of
Commons might successfully have been
impugned. I know well — we all know
that there have been times when its con-
duct has been unjust, violent, even ty-
rannical. If you search our records,
unquestionably you will find conclusions
on many subjects that are at variance
with those doctrines which are the hap-
pier appanage of our more enlightened
S48
JPm'Uammtarjf
(COXMOKB)
S^arm'^
244
times. Boty Bur» fhere is no greater entnr
than to jndge the morale of one age by
the manners of a Buheeqnent one. Th^ie
is no greater error than to deoide upon
the passions of perilons times with the
philosophic calmness of assured security.
There is no greater error than to gauge
the intellect of the past by its deficiencies,
and not by the accumulated wisdom which
it has achieved, and which has become
our beneficent inheritance. Those who
take a larger and a nobler Tiew of human
affairs will, I think, recognise that, alone
in the countries of Europe, England now
for almost countless generations has by her
Parliament exhibited the foir exemplar
of free goyernment ; and that throughout
the awful vicissitudes of her heroic his-
tory she has, chiefly by this House of
Commons, maintained and cherished that
public spirit which is the soul of Com-
monwealths, without which Empire has
no glory, and the wealth of nations is but
the means of corruption and decay. Sir,
I move that on the 25th of February this
House will resolve itself into a Committee
of the Whole House to take into conside-
ration the 2 & 3 WM. 17. c. 45.
Mb. GLADSTONE said : Without. Sir,
in any manner derogating from the abiUty
of the speech which Hie right hon. Gen-
tleman has just delivered, I venture to
observe — and I think many will concur in
the observation — it is one which does not
of itself necessarily carry censure— that
the House is placed in a somewhat peculiar
position. We are to approach the discus-
sion of a subject of unparalleled difficulty,
and one which has undoubtedly been em-
bittered in other times by proceedings
which, whether justified by the spirit of
party and the ordinary usages of Parlia-
ment or not, yet certainly has been in a
high degree obstructive of public progress
-—we are to approach the discussion of
this question now on the invitation of the
right hon. Gentleman in a manner, I think,
altogether novel. I am not about to dis-
cuss at length the propositions of the right
hon. Gentleman, which will be best con-
sidered when we hold them, in their ex-
press terms, in our hands ; still less am I
about to offer to the House, as I hope, any
one remark which may diminish &e ex-
pectations or the hopes that any one of us
may entertain of making the propositions
of the right hon. Gentieman and of the
Government the basis of a settlement of
the <^oestion. But there were remarks
contained in the speech of the right hon.
The Chancellor of the JExehejuer
Oenileman which I do not feel able to pass
by altogether in silence, ^e right hon.
Gentleman, in the early patt of his speech,
laid much stress upon cerijain terms con-
tained in Her Migesty's Speech — teons^ I
think, not very commonly fotind in Speeches
fix>m the Throne — ^instructing this House
as to the temper in which it was to deal
with this subject; .and the signification
which the right hon. Qentleiiian, no doubt
with great authority, attaches to those*
words is this, that tiae aobject of Parlia-
mentary Eeform is no longer to be a
question whereon the fate of a Ministry is
to depend. Kow, Sir, there is no more
grave and difficult question that can arise
for the consideration of the responsible
Ministers of the Crown than to determine
what are and what are not the occasions
upon which the failure and rejection of
their propositions constitute a sufficient
cause for the resignation of their offices.
If that general proposition be sustained,
as I think it is both by opinion and by
experience, there immediately follows from
it this consequence — ^that the Executive
Government ought on every occasion to
retain in its own hands an unimpeded
and unfettered power of considering that
most difficult question with reference to its
own dignity and honour, and to the in-
terests of the country according to the
circumstances that may arise. Those cir-
cumstances, Sir, it b im^ssible to define
and to forecast in anticipation of the
events ; and I own to entertaining a doubt
whether the right hon. Gentleman has so
far conduced to the easier or more satis-
factory prospect of settling' this question
by the annoimcoment beforehand of some-
thing like an abstract and binding proposi-
tion to the effect that it is to be one which
is not to involve the fate of the Govern-
ment. That, howcTcr, is a matter more,
perhaps, for the consideration of the right
hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues than
for those who are less connected with
them ; but the principle announced by the
right hon. Gentleman is one of such im-
portance, and I confess that in my own
mind it is one open to so much doubt, that
I could not allow it to pass without a re-
mark against it. The right hon. Gentle-
man then proceeded to give us a lengthened
historical disquisition upon the transactions
that have taken place in previous Sessions,
and in previous Parliaments, with regard
to measures of Parliamentary Beform. I
wish. Sir, to give the right hon. QenUe-
man the opportunity of oorrectiDg me on
i4S AprgtmMian of (Febettabt ll, 1667}
M# jRwj^b.
S46
ft Mare occasion if I sbonld nnfertnnately
ausrepresent hia meaning in oonseqnence
of havii^ been nnable sniBeientlj to oom-
prebend bim. Bot I did not clearly gatber
from bis speech what was tbe precise in-
ference that be intended ns to draw firom
that recital. It appeared to me tbat bis
object was to show tbat tbere was a spe-
dal responnbility of^tbis House, as dis*
tmgnisbed from the Government which
odinarily directs its proceedings, with re-
lerenoe to the subject of Parliamentary
Befbrm. If tbat be all that is intended
to be established by that recital I baTC no
difficulty, aa far as I am personally con-
cerned, in subscribing to the doctnne of
the light bon. Gentleman ; for although
the opinion, when I expressed it, was
much objected to — and objected to, perhaps,
in quarters where tbere may be more sym-
pathy with it to-nigbt — I did entertain,
and strongly entertain, the opinion that
the House itself — ^from tbe action on Ta-
nous occasions of its independent Mem-
ben — has incurred in the eyes of the
country a special responsibility with re-
ference to tbe question of Reform. But I
understood tbe right hon. Gentleman to
go beyond tbe limits of tbat proposition,
snd by his announcement that he leaves
us to imply that, together with the in-
crease of the responsibility of the House
of Commons there was a diminution of tbe
responsibility of the Government, and that
sn exceptional state of things had arisen
in which it would be expedient for, if not
imperntiye, upon this House to effect a
settlement of this diflScult question under
some guidance or leadership — the right
hon. Gentleman does not say in what
degree — of Government, such guidance or
leadership to be connected with a respon-
sibility difPerent in kind and also in weight
from that which usually attaches to the
Advisers of tbe Crown. If that be so, I
must confess that I am doubtful whether
the announcement of such a view on the
part of the Leader of this House will odd
to the weight or to the authority with
which bis propositions should be placed
before us* and which, attaching as it justly
does under all circumstances to the pro-
posals of the Executive in this country,
is of itself one of the great propelling
forces by which important measures are
BQCcessfullT carried through this House.
The right bon. Gentleman has announced,
with reference to the subiect of Parlia-
mentary Beform, bis intention of proceed-
ing by Besolution — an intention with
which we were already aeouainted fhim
information that had reiobed us from va-
rious quarters. I will not enter into any
full discussion of that method of proceed*
ing, although I frankly own my prepoa*
sessions to bo against it I think that
that method of proceeding is justifiabloi
and even necessary, in cases of a particular
description; in a case, for example, where
it is necessary to obtain the conoatrenoe
of both Houses, it is obvious that the
simultaneous conounence of both Houses
could not be had except by adopting the
practice of proceeding by Jftescdution. I
will not, however, ask what are the
precise limits to which this method of
proceeding should be confined; but the
right hon. Gentleman, baring dwelt upon
the subject fully, has failed to satirfy my
mind that this method of doing things
twice over instead of once has not» as a
general rule, some tendency to cause de-
lay. The right bon. Gentleman, in fondl-
ing upon the second and more important
point, admitted that vagueness was almost
inseparable from the nature of Besolu-
tions — that is to say, tbat if Resolutions
are to be passed with greater facility than
would be the case were the same proposi-
tions embodied in a Bill, the right bon«
Gentleman admits that those Besolutions
must necessarily be exceedingly vague in
their nature. Then, Sir, the right hon. Gen-
tleman has shadowed forth in bis speech
to-night the principal points which are to
be included in the Besolutions that be is
about to propose, and I wish to state with the
utmost clearness what, as far as my bumble
opinion is concerned, should be the course
6f the independent Members of this House,
I have already said that, under the cir-
cumstances, I do not ask what might
be asked on other occasions — how txt tbe
Government which makes this proposal is
in possession of the general confidence of
the House ; and I now go further and say
that the objections I entertain to this
mode of procedure will not stand in my
way— and should not, I think, stand in
the way of others — ^if, notwithstanding
this mode of procedure, we can use the
propositions of the right bon. Gentleman
-—either b^ adopting them as they stand,
or by altering them — as a means of arriv-
ing at a settlement of this question. Those
scruples which I felt with regard to the
method of proceeding by way of Kesolution
I shall cast behind me if, upon examin-
ing those Besolutions, I find it possible
for us to make an onward movement.
247
ParliamnUarjf
(C01CU017SI
Ss/arm.
M«
The right hon. Gentleman has told ns
something of his propositions, and in refer-
ence to them I most observe that I think
we are bound to avoid everything that tends
to adjourn the settlement of this question.
In whatever form these Resolutions are
laid before us a long period of time must
elapse before this great and fundamental
question can be settled. I am not alto-
gether assured, after having heard the
remarks of the right hon. Gentleman with
reference to the rating franchise, that the
matter will be disposed of with the requi-
site speed. If I am to interpret in the
ordtnarj manner the terms of the notice
which stands upon the notice-books of the
House, it is dear that very important
changes in the law of rating are contem-
plated, changes such as it is impossible for
this House to adopt in a moment. Is it
meant that the question of Parliamentary
Beform is to depend upon the previous
attainment of what the right hon. Gentle-
man may think a perfect system of rating ?
I understand the right hon. Gentleman to
say that he cannot fix the amount of the
reduction in the franchise in his first Ee-
soltttion, because that may depend upon
the points to be disposed or by subsequent
Eesolutions ; but does not the right hon.
Gentleman see that many Members would
refuse— would justly refuse — to commit
themselves to an abstract principle of re-
duction unless they knew what form that
reduction ^^as to take ? Again, if it be
true that the amount of this reduction is
to depend upon some subsequent Eesolu-
tion with reference to an alteration to be
made in the law of rating, I hope I may
dismiss the apprehension which I confess
a part of the speech of the -right hon.
Gentleman raised in my mind, that this
method of proceeding by way of Eesolution
is calculated to defer the definitive settle-
ment of the question of Parliamentary
Beform. I beg the right hon. Gentleman,
if he thinks it worth his while, to consider
that as an illustration of what I mean.
The very same motives as would lead me,
for one, with the utmost earnestness to
co-operate with the right hon. Gentleman,
and to build on his foundations, if possible,
for a speedy settlement of the question,
would likewise lead me, I frankly own,
to offer a determined opposition to any
proposition, or any method of proceeding,
which would appear to me to be likely to
cast it into the far future. We cannot
afford to go on in this country as we are
going* It is time that this discord between
Mr. eiad$t9M
classes— this tendency to discord— this in-
cipient discord — this tendency to separate
interests, from indications of which I must
say the speech of the right hon. Gendeman*
in that portion of it in which he referred
to the paragraph in the Speech from the
Throne, was not altogether fr^e — it is time
that all this should oease ; and not till this
question of Keform Jias disappeared from
among the subjects of controversy can we
hope to see the people of England what
they once were, and what we ought to be
desirous they should ever continue to be—
a united people. The right hon. Gentle-
man has told us the day on which ho
proposes to proceed with his Besoiutions.
I think it better to reserve till then any
opinion on the important question — pw-
haps the vital question — whether his Re*
solutions do constitute a plan to which the
House can assent if they agree, and oa
which they can join issue, if they do not
agree, with the right hon. Gentleman.
No objection will be taken otherwise than
as matter of argument and representatiozi
with respect to the mode of proceeding.
I have just intimated the direction in
which we are disposed to look, and the
rule by which our conduct will be guided«
Oar object being to make progress in this
question-— and we think the country has a
right to expect that — ^we will gladly assist
the right hon. Gentleman, if he concurs
with us in this view of the matter, in
giving effect to his idea so far as we are
able consistently to do so. But I am sure
the right hon. Gentleman will not expect
us to be a party to a course of proceeding
which would amount in effect to an absolute
betrayal of public duty^that is to say, to
the adoption of his Eesolutions if we find
them to be measures — ^not measures, but
declarations preliminary to measures — a
course tending to produce doubt and un-
certainty in the public mind — tending to
diminish the confidence of the people in
Parliament — tending to adjourn a conolu-
sion for which, on every ground, it is de- '
sirable that we should look without delay.
The right hon. Gentleman asked the ques-
tion, and I think it was a natural remark
to make — ''Upon what principle the
House of Commons was tK> be re-con-
strmcted?" He answered that it ought
to be upon the principle of the British
Constitution. Then, spreading his wings
for an extended flight^ he travelled both
Eastward and Westward, and gave us an
account of the Bepresentative Chambers
of various foreign countries* Sir, I very
249
TdlwriiaHof
\TKBXUAXt 11» 1867]
Prapmiy Sill. 250
mneh doubt fhe wisdom of those aelf-
oomplacent alliuiona to the institutionB of
fdreign oountiieB. It sometimes happens
that our views of them are not altogether
accurate, and at best they oannot be ex-
pected to carry on them the stamp of im-
partiality. Were this the time and place,
I should be disposed to challenge some
particulars in the statement of the right
hon. Gentleman; but> even if those state-
ments were strictly accurate, I very much
doubt whether much is gained by com-
parisons of this description. The right
hon. Gentleman must, however, see that
he is engaged in a combat with a phantom;
for has any Government in this country
at any time proposed to deal with the
question of Parliamentary Eeform on any
other principles than those of the British
Constitution? I assert that we have
been ready at all times — and never more
so than last year— to contend that it
was upon those principles we took our
stand. It is true there may be differ-
ences of opinion amongst us as to various
points of detail ; but, however widely we
may differ upon questions of general po-
licy, I do not believe that any one Member
in this House would be willing to depart
from the principles of the British Consti-
tution. I frankly own it appears to me
that in the ezpresdon of his opinions the
right hon. Gentleman himself has some-
what departed from the principles of the
British Constitution ; but am I to rise in
my place and assume that I have the ex-
clusive possession of the key of those prin-
mples? Or am I to charge the right hon.
Gentleman or any other Member of this
Souse with the abandonment of all regard
for them ? I ask the right hon. Gentleman
to enlarge his toleration so far as to believe
that even those who have differed from
him on fonner occasions, and who may
ultimately differ from him in the later
development of this question — to believe
that whether they differ from him or not,
they are animated equally with himself
by a regfod for that glorious Constitution,
the rich traditions and noble inheritance
which it has left us, and that whilst up-
holding their rights of freedom they claim
for themselves and their opinions that oon-
siderstion which we gladly and freely ac-
cord to others.
ICbtioii ^idd io.
I
VALUATION OP PROPERTY BILL,
LEAVE. FIB8T BEADING.
Mb. hunt, in rising to move for leave
to bring in a Bill to provide for a common
basis of value for the purposes of Govern-
ment and Local Taxation, and to promote
uniformity in the assessment of Bateable
Property in England, said, he hoped, not-
withstanding the all-absorbing character
of the sulneot that had just been brought
beore the House, tiiat they would consider
that this was one of considerable import-
ance, and that they would bear with him
whilst he explained, but not atgreat length,
what he considered the evils of our present
system of valuation, and how he proposed
to remedy it. The evils of the present
system had long been felt. In 1850 Sir
George Lewis gave evidence before a Com-
mittee of the House of Lords on the sub-
ject. That Committee made certain recom-
mendations, having reference not only to
valuations of local rates, but they recom-
mended, as a principle, that assessments
should be made on one uniform and equal
relative valuation. Li the same year a
Bill was brought in by Sir George Lewis
and the right hon. Baronet the Member
for Morpeth (Sir George Grey), to estab-
lish the principle of universal valuation
for poor rates throughout the country,
and it had occurred to the present Go-
vernment that that principle might be
carried still farther, and that the same
valuation might be used both for local
and Imperial purposes. What the Go-
vernment looked to was what in refer-
ence to the poor rates answered to the
gross estimated rental. The income tax,
with regard to real property, was levied on
the gross Value, whilst the local rates were
levied on the- rateable or net value of the
property ; but notwithstanding that differ-
ence, the gross value was really the basis
of value, because it was from that that
certain deductions were made and the
rateable value ascertained for local pur-
poBOS. He would now briefly describe the
present system of valuation both for the
purpose of taxation and for the parpose of
rating. And first with regard to taxation,
in which he was most immediatelv con-
cerned, and on account of which he had
been intrusted with the conduct of this
measure. The primary assessments were
made by local assessors, and then the
Government officer and assessor of taxes
had the power of reviewing those assess-
ments and making surcharges on persona
251
Valuation of
iCOHHOITB}
Propwi^ JSiB.
named in the list. The district Commis-
Bionen>| who were independent persons, had
to decide in cases where the tiocpayers did
not assent to the surcharges made by the
surveyor, and there was no appeal from
those Gommiseioners, except as far as they
might state points of law for the decision
of the Superior Conrts of Law at West-
minster. With regard to matters of fact,
there was no appeal from their decision.
As regarded local taxation, the system was
as follows : — ^The Boards of Guardians an-
nually appointed out of their own body a
committee to assess, and that committee
consisted of one-third oi ex officio guardians
-^namely, justices of the peace resident in
the union, supposing there were any justi-
ces resident — and, if not, their places were
supplied by the ordinary members of the
Board of Guardians. The lists were made
out by the parish officers and submitted
to the assessment committee, who then
made out the assessment upon these lists,
with any alterations which they might
deem expedient to make after hearing the
objections of the persons assessed, or of
other persons upon the same lists or resid-
ing in the same union. Supposing any dis-
satisfaction were felt at the decisions of the
assessment committee, there was an ap-
peal, which was final, to the quarter ses-
sions. But that was not the only assess-
ment made with regard to local taxation.
One would have thought that a system
which was good for the purpose of the
poor rate, the highway rate, and church
rates, would likewise have been good for
the county rate ; but it would be found that
the magistrates at quarter sessions had the
power to appoint a committeefor the county
rating. They might make a new basis,
and in practice it was known that they
did BO. He understood that at the pre-
sent moment the committees of magistrates
and quarter sessions were making a new
basis for county rates, notwithstanding
that the assessment for the poor rate had
only just been completed in their own
county. It was true that the quarter
sessions committee did not go into the
same particulars as the assessment commit-
tees, because they only assessed parishes,
whereas the assessment committees as-
sessed individual property; but it often
happened that the assessment made for
the county rate in a parish was wholly
different m amount from the poor rate
assessment in tiie same parish. In the
case of county rates also there was an ap-
peal to the quarter sessiona* Bat then
this extraordinary state of things aroae.
A. man had to watch the assessment on his
property for property tax, for poor rates,
and for parish and county rates. He
might appeal in one case and his appeal
might be sustained, but that would not
affect any other assessment to which he
was assessed. On the contrary, he would
have to go throagh the same process in
regard to all the three assessments. All
the labour with regard to one yalnation
was entirely thrown away with regard to
the others. He might have gone moro
into detail in r^ard to this ma&r, but he
thought he had stated enough to satisfy
the House that the existing system was
one not creditable to the country. Then
the question arose as to what was to be
substituted for the three systems without
parting with any of the present jurisdio*
tions of the Government, the Poor Law
officers, the Boards of Guardians, or the
magistrates. If they were to commence
entirely afresh, perhaps it would be easy
to devise a simple scheme which might
serve for all purposes, but the Government
had determined to make use of the existing
machinery. Before 1862 there was much
more inequality in rating than at present,
because ^e parish made out the valuation
lists and fixed upon the soale of dedue*
tions, the consequence of which was that
there might be different scales of deduo-
tion in the same union, lliat system,
however, had to a certain extent been
modified by the union assessment com-
mittees, and therefore within the union
itself there was now a uniform scale of
deductions. Still the uniformity did not
extend beyond the area of the union. The
Bills to which he had just now alluded
attempted to provide for uniformity as re->
gards counties, and the Bill which he was •
about to ask leave to introduce also pro-
vided for uniformity as regards counties.
He proposed to take as the basis of valua-
tion the present system of union assess-
ment, and that the assessment committee
should send representatives to a County
Valuation Board, to consist of the repre-
sentatives of all the assessment commit-
tees in the county — for the most part
two members from each committee^one
of such representatives to be an at officii
member, and the other an ordinary mem-
ber. It was proposed to include in the
area of the county all the towns lying
within it, but the towns were to be re-
presented on the same principle at the
Yaluation Board. If they already had
253
TatmiUn of
(Febbuabt 11| 1867} Prcp<frfy Bill.
254
separate oommittees tbey would send
members to the Yalnation Board, and if
thej had no oommittees they might ap-
point members to serve on the Board.
In the event of there being no magis-
trates who could serve, it was proposed
that the To¥m Councils should nominate
members of the Board. The functions of
the Yaluation^Board would have reference
almost exclusively to the scale of deduc-
tionsy and they would have nothing to do
with the assessment of gross value except
in certain cases. The Valuation Board
would have to lay down the scale of de-
ductions to be observed in all the assess-
ment committees throughout the country.
It was likewise proposed that the Valua-
tion Board should perform the duties of
the assessment committees at the expense
of those committees in those cases where
tho assessment committees delayed to dis-
charge the duties imposed on them by Act
of Parliament The eflfeot of that enact-
ment would, in all probability, be that the
assessment committees would perform
their duties within the proper time. With
regard to gross value, it was proposed that
the overseers should make out the valua-
tion lists, as at present. But here a new
element would be introduced into the as-
sessment system, for the surveyor of taxes
would have a hew standi before the as-
sessment committees, and the power of
stating what, in his opinion, was the right
sum of the gross value, and consequently
of throwing the anui prohandi of disprov-
ing his statement on the taxpayers and
ratepayers. Thus for the first time there
would be some one present who would
have an interest in putting up the assess-
ment to the right point. That, he be-
lieved» would have the effect of preventing
*too low assessments being made. It was
also proposed that when the assessments
had been made by the committees they
should be sent up to the Valuation Board,
who would take care that their instruc-
tions with regard to the scale of deduc-
tions had been fully carried out. An
appeal would be allowed to an assessor,
who would be a barrister-atlaw, and who
would be appointed by the Valuation
Board, with the consent of the Treasury.
The quarter sessions would thereby be
discharged of their present appellate ninc-
tion, and a system, something like that
now existing in Ireland, would be adopted.
On the applioation of the parties the aa-
aesBCHr would be empowered to order a
sonrej and valuation of any property in
respect to which a dispute had arisen. A
union might appeal against the assessment
of another union, and a parish against the
assessment of another parish. The assessor
being appointed by the Valuation Board
subject to the control of the Treasury, the
Imperial interests would be properly gua-
ranteed, and, at the same time, he would
be appointed by persons chosen by the
ratepayers. These were the main features
of the measure which he asked for leave
to introduce. It was not proposed to make
any change in the incidence of taxation,
which, as now, would be based on gross
and rateable veJues, and it was only in the
mode of ascertaining the value and assess-
ment that alteration was proposed. Al-
though quarter sessions would be relieved
of their functions, the present magisterial
element would not be dispensed with ; for
about one-half the members of the pro-
posed Boards would be justices and mem-
bers of quarter sessions; and with the
exception of the quarter sessions and dis-
trict Commissioners, it was proposed to
retain existing jurisdictions. In Ireland
valuations were made by a Government
officer for all purposes. There was only
one column and that was for the net value,
which almost corresponded with our rate-
able value, and there was a Court of Ap-
peal similar to that proposed for England.
The Scotch system, less perfect than the
Irish one, was vastly superior to that of
England. Commissioners of Supply there
made out valuation lists, or employed per-
sons to do so ; and if they employed a
Government officer, the valuation served
for Imperial and local purposes. This
system was far preferable to the three
systems employed here. It was proposed
that the metropolis, owing to its special
circumstances, should be exempt from this
Bill ; but if its principles were agreed to,
they might in a future Bill be applied to
the metropolis. The valuation under the
proposed Bill would extend to Imperial
and local taxation. It would also affect
the composition of jury lists, election of
guardians, licensing, and manv other mat-
ters, which would make the Bill lengthy
and complicated, but he hoped that it
would be laid on the table in about a
week, and read a second time in abou.t
three weeks. The right hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving for leave to bring in
the Bill.
Mr. CHILDEBS said, the Bill neces-
sarily involved so many details that it
must be in their hands before they could
S55
Printing-^
(COMMONS)
Seleei CommUies.
356
express their opinions npoa its proposals.
He was glad that it was introdoced, al-
though he looked with jealousy upon the
appointment of a lai^ge number of appel-
late hainsters
Mb. BAXTER said, that the admirable
working of the Scotch system during the
last thirteen years bad filled Scotch Mem-
bers with amazement at the continuance
of the English system. The assessment
in Scotland was not perfect, and it was
intended to ask for amendments this Ses-
sioir ; but the system worked admirably
for taxation and registration.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE said, the ad-
vantage of an uniform system of valuation
was unquestionable ; and, therefore, such
a system ought to be adopted. Such a
measure failed preyiously in the House of
Gommona from the con^ct of interests in
regard to the matter, when public opinion
was not so ripe for Reform as now. He
regretted that the Bill did not establish a
universal system of rating.
Mk. AYRTON said, he was glad the
metropolis was to be excluded from the
Bill, not because he objected to the prin*
ciple, but because its circumstances were
diflferent from those of the rest of the
country, and the Bill would not have
workea in London in the manner proposed
for the counties. He hoped in any Bill
for the metropolis the authorities would
have full power to make investigations as
to the real value of each individual pro-
perty. He thought there was some ob-
scurity as to the manner of descending
from a whole parish to separate holdings.
Mb. hunt said, he thought he had
explained that the assessment committees
would go into the case of every holding.
There need be no apprehension as to the
number of barristers to be employed ; it
was not proposed to employ standing asses-
sors, at £xea salaries, but to appoint them
from time to time at such remuneration as
might be determined upon ; and if the
scheme were successful, there would hardly
ever be an appeal.
Motion agreed to.
Bill to provide ibr a Common basis of vslao for
the purposes of Govemment and Local Taxation,
and to promote unirormity io the assessment of
Rateable Property in England, ordered to be
brooffht in by Mr. HniiT, Mr. Seeretarj Waupou,
and Mr. Gathobhi Habdt.
. ^mfretenUd, and read the first Ume. [Bill li.]
jVr« Child^i
PRINTING.— SELECT COMMITTEE.
COST OF PAPERS.
On Motion for the appointment of the
Sessional Printing Committee,
Mr. CHILDERS said, he took the op-
portunity to oflFer the suggestion, which it
would hardly be proper to make to the
Committee unless it had been previoufily
made to the House, that — as in some fo-
reign Legislatures — ^the cost of printings
each Beturn should be printed on the
face of it, not so much to deter hon.
Members from calling for Eetums as to
show them at what cost they were pro-
duced, and to lead them to inquire whe-
ther the information desired was not
otherwise accessible. Hon. Members were
hardly aware of the great cost of printing,
and tiiat a large amount of that cost was
incurred unnecessarily.
Mr. hunt said, that the question of
the cost of printing Betums had already
occupied the consideration of the Oovcm-
ment. No doubt it was quite possible
to ascertain the cost of printing these
Returns. The difficulty was to ascertain
the cost of compiling them. If the House
would require that whenever a Member
was anxious to have a Return, or copies
of Correspondence, he should give notice
of the object he had in view and the
points he wished to bring out, means
might possibly be found to give him the
information he wanted within shorter com-
pass and in a more convenient form than
at present. It frequenUy happened that
Members moved for most elaborate statis-
tical Returns, and it was afterwards found
that the greatier part of the information
already existed in the Library, in Returns
already laid before the House. If the
suggestion now made were adopted, his
notion was that they might dispense with,
three-fourths of the papers which no\r
overburdened their shelves, and which.
Members hardly knew how to get rid of
at the end of a Session. The suggestion
of his hon. Friend should not be lost
sight of.
Select Committoe appait^d and nominaied^
" to assist Mr. Speaker in all matters which re-
late to the Printing exeonted bjr Order of this
House, and for the pnrpoee of seleoting and ar-
ranging for Printing, Returns and Papers pre-
sented in pursuance of Motions made by Homben
of this House :" — Mr. Bonbam-Cabtxr, Sir Jonir
PAKiiroTON, Mr. Secretary Walpolx, Mr. Hbrlxt,
Mr. Cabswill, Mr. Gasssll, Sir Stappokd North-
oon, The O'Coxoa Dov, Mr. Hastims RubbbUp
Mr. ChildbbSi and Mr. Hon :— Three to bs ihe
^uorani*
957
The lard
PUBLIC PBXITIONS.
(F£Bbitabt12» 1867)
ChUfBarcn,
25S
Sdeet Committee appointed and nominated: —
Mr.CBABUie Fosstbr, Mr. Bohhaic-Cabtsb, Major
Gayix, Sir CoLMAN O'LooHLKN, Mr. HiaTiKos
RusaazXy Mr. Alderman Salomons, Mr. Owin
Stahlst, Mr. Kinvaird, Mr. Reoiitald Yoskr,
Mr. RoBUT T0BBBN8, Mr. M'Laoah, Mr. Sard-
roBD, Sir Ohablbs Rusbbll, Mr. Da Gbbt, and
Mr. Hbitrt EnwABD Subtbbs :— Throe to be the
qoorum.
House adjourned at a quarter
after Eight o'olook.
HOUSE OF LOBDS^,
Tueiday^ February 12, 1867.
MINUTES.]— PuBUO BiuM—Fint Reading-^
British North Ameriea* (9) ; Sale of Land by
Auotion»(10). -
Second Reading — TrafiSo Regulation (Metro-
polis) (5) and referred to a Seleot Committee,
THE LORD CHIEF BARON. •
FETITIOH OF RIGHT WASON, ESQUIBK.
Eabl BUSSELL, XxipreHniing a Peti-
tion compUining of the Conduct in 1835
of the Lord Chief Baron, then Mr. Kelly,
and praying for Inqairy ; of Bigby Waion,
of Corwar, in the County of Ayr, EBquire,
said : My Lords, I have a Petition to pre-
lent upon a matter of coneiderable im-
portance. It b from Mr. Bigby Waion
[*The report of the debate on this
Petition has been necessarily restricted to
those parts of it which relate immediately
to the allegations of the Petition.
The law of Parliament considers any
pnbHcation of its proceedings to be breacn
of privilege, and therefore gives no pro-
tection to any report, however faithfhl;
Lord Campbell's Act does not extend its
very limited protection to cases arising
from such reports ; and success against pro-
ceedings in an action at law is only in
degree less disastrous than an adverse re-
sult. Everything, therefore, to which
exception might be taken has been ex-
cluded from the report.
In the Session of 1857 Lord Campbell,
adverting to the recent case of ** Davidson
V. Duncan," said— -
^ When I had the honour to pr6pose in this
House a BiU ivhioh afterwards be<»me law (6 dk 7
Viei. c. 96), and which effected a most material
improvement in the Law of Libel, I submitted a
clause Tory limited in its nature— for I was afraid
VOL. CLXXXY. [thibd seeies.]
against Sir FitzBoy Kelly, and be prays
your Lordships to appoint a Committee to
inTcstigate the charges made in this Peti-
tion ; aud if the Committee should find
these charges to be proved, then he prays
that your Lordships will concur with the
other House of Parliament in praying the
Crown to remove the Lord Chief Baron
from his high post. The allegation of the
Petition is that in the year 1835 Mr«
Kelly, being then in practice at the Bar,
pledged his honour as a gentleman to the
truth of a statement for the purpose of de-
ceiving a Committee of the House of
Commons. The Petition alleges that the
Committee was thereby deceived, and,
being an Election Committee, reported
that Mr. Kelly, who had been a candidate
for the representation of the borough of
Ipswich, had not been guilty of bribery, and
had not committed any illegal practices*
Mr. Bigby Wason, however, alleges that on
further inquiry the Committee came to a
different opinion, and were convinced that
the statement made by Mr. Kelly was un-
founded, and thereupon unseated Mr.
Kelly on the ground that he had committed
bribery by his friends and agents. The
Petitioner goes on to state that in 1845
Mr. Kelly was appointed Solicitor General
by the Government of Sir Bobert Peel;
that Sir Bobert Peel was in some measure
deceived as to the facts relating to this
inquiry before the Election Committee;
but. that he (Mr. Bigby Wason), having
to go very fiur — providing that any bond fide
account of the proceedings of either House o!
Parliament should be priyileged, and not subjcHst
to an action. . I was unable to carry it; thei*e
was a majority against me, because it was said,
not only that the law gave no such privilege, but
that it ought not to be given."
In the same year Lord Campbell obtained
the appointment of a Select Committee on
the ** Privilege of Beports," before which
Mr. Dobie, the solicitor of The Timee^
Mr. Baines of The Leeds Mercury, Mr.
Hargrove of The York Herald, and Mr.
Hansard, gave evidence. The Committee
reported in favour of extending protection
to faithful reports of proceedings in Par-
liament, "the majority being influenced
by the evidence of Mr. Hansard, and of
the solicitor to The Times newspaper." In
the following Session, Lord Campbell in-
troduced a Bill to give effect to the Beport
of the Committee. The Bill contained
the following clause : —
" No person shall be liable to action, informa-
K
t59
TheL&rd
{LORDS)
Chief Jiaron.
860
no personal enmity to Mr. Kelly, did not
think it right to go into the case against
him. Mr. Kelly was afterwards appointed
to the office of Attorney General ; and
again to the same office under Lord
Derby's 6o?emment in 1852 ; and finally
attained, under the present Govern ment,
the office which he now fills. The Peti-
tion concludes with the prayer which I have
already detailed. My Lords, I have felt it
my doty to present this Petition, relating,
as it does, to a public matter of the highest
importance. But there are some reasons in
the Petition itself which certainly make me
feel it not my duty — whatever course
other noble Lords may think it right to
adopt— -to ask your Lordships to assent in
this case to the appointment of the Com-
mittee which is asked for. In the first
place, I cannot agree with the allegation
of Mr. Rigby Wason that when Sir FitaRoy
Kelly was appointed Solicitor General by
Sir Robert Peel it was not a matter of great
public importance, or that if Sir Robert
Peel had been deceived it was not a question
in which Mr. Wason ought to feel any inter-
est. Now, in the first place, a gentleman
of the Bar who is appointed Solicitor Ge-
neral is in the direct road to promotion to
the office of a Judge, and it would be a
great injustice to the public to appoint any
man to be Solicitor General who had no-
toriously been guilty of pledging his honour
as a gentleman to the truth of that which
he knew to be false ; and, therefore, if
tion, or indiotment for libel, in respect or on
aooonnt of any faithfbl report of proceedings at
any sitting of either House of Parliament, at
which strangers have been permitted to be
present."
In his speech in moving the Second Read-
ing, after a fall exposition of the law on
the publication of reports of proceedings
in Parliament, Lord Campbell said —
" Mr. Hansard, a name well known to their
Ijordships, after stating that he had not had ac-
tions brought, but had been in constant dread of
them, gave this evidence :
" ' lour Lordships are very well aware that my
publication is the only publication which pro-
^Nues to record the proceedings of Parliament
tfi extauOf and with very considerate fidelity, but
that I am not in any way recognized— that I have
no protection whatever more than any other per«
son who should publish in exUnso or otherwise
any reports of debates in your Lordships' House
or of debates in the other House. Now, the con-
sequence of the present state of the Law of Libel is
this : that if matter is uttered in debate in either
House which would be libellous and would be un-
protected if published out of the House, I am
obliged to consider whether it would be safe for
there had been ground for charging sach
an offence against Sir FitzRoy Kelly,
it was Mr. Rigby Wason 's duty to have
broaght the matter before Sir Robert Peel.
Nobody can believe that Sir Robert Peel
would have thought lightly of such a
charge, or would have appointed Sir Fitz-
Roy Kelly Solicitor General without any
contradiction of the charge so made against
him. It appears to me, first, that Sir
Robert Peel having appointed Sir FitzRoy
Kelly to be Solicitor General was satisfied
of his integrity and his fitness for the
office, and that ho should be advanced ia
the usual manner. In the next place, it
appears to me that Mr. Rigby Wason could
hardly have refrained from pressing his
charges from any feeling of personal ten-
derness for Sir FitzRoy Kelly, but rather
because he felt that his proofs were ia-
sufficient. But I have bad further in-
formation upon the subject since I came
to that decision. Mr. Rigby Wason sent
me copies of letters which he had written
to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of
Derby), and to Mr. Walpole, the Home
Secretary, bringing these charges, and I
have also received the answer sent from Sir
FitiRoy Kelly to Mr. Walpole, stating that
he would send an. answer more in detail on
a future day ; but, meanwhile, totally
denying the truth of these allegations. I
have since seen a statement under the hand
of Sir FiCaRoy Kelly himself, in which he
not only denies the truth of these allega-
me to print that matter ; and if I am clearly of
opinion that it would not be safe for me to do to,
inasmuch as the publication is not of such a na-
ture that I could stand the expenses of a prosecu-
tion, the result is that I strike the matter oat
without any attempt at modification or otherwiaa.
" ' That apprehension induces you to suppress
that which ought to appear if the report were
fully accurate f It ia, advisedly and systemati-
caUy so.' "
Lord Wensleydale opposed the Bill, and
moved its rejection ; and after an instruc-
tive debate, in which the present Lora
Chancellor (who at that time also held the
dreat Seal) spoke strongly against the
measure, the Amendment was carried by
a majority of 35 to 7, and the Bill was
thrown out.
Under such a state of the law, and such
being the declared opinion of Parliament
on the subject, and considering that the
vindication of the Lord Chief Baron's cha-
racter was the essential part of the discus-
sion, Mr. Hansard holds it within his dis-
cretion to restrict his report to that point. J
Ml
l%$Zori
ITmvuAXT 12, 1867) ]
CSiiefSaron.
S6S
tioDt, but enters into ezplanationi for the
parpote of i bowing hoir totally unfounded
they are. In the first plaoe» he itates—
what Mr. Rigby Waaon does not state-
that the particular charge in which he is
accused of hsTing stated what was false
was founded on a statement which Mr.
Bigby Wason alleges Sir FitsRpy Kelly
to have made, that he was not acquainted
personally with a Mr. Pilgrim, and knew
nothing whatever of him. Sir FitsRoy
Kelly says that he never made such a state-
ment, for it was notorious that he knew
Pilgrim, who was clerk in the office of a
solicitor at Ipswich. He further says that
by accident Mr. Gumey, the shorthand
writer, had kept his notes of that speech,
and that the notes contained no such state-
ments as those embodied in the allegations.
The truth of that charge being thus denied,
Sir FitsRoy Kelly proceeds to say that, so
far from Sir Robert Peel having any diffi-
culty or doubt about appointing him, he
was afterwards appointed under another
Government to the same office. The Elec-
tion Committee which, as I have already
stated, reported that Sir FitsRoy Kelly
had been guilty of bribery, could not have
found that he was personally cognisant of
bribery, for they reported that it was com-
mitted through his friends and agents.
It therefore appears to me that the allega-
tions fall to the ground. It seems to me
impossible that since 1835, now nearly
thirty-two years ago. Sir FitsRoy Kelly
could have been a candidate for Ipswich,
afterwards a candidate and Member for
Cambridge, and finally Member for Suffolk
-—having been elected, I believe, six times
for that county — without these circum-
stances being brought to light. It seems
to me quite impossible — the speech having
been taken in shorthand— that some of bis
constituents or opponents would not have
brought the matter forward during the
excitement that usually takes place during
a General Election. For these reasons,
though I have thought it right to present
the Petition, as I have already stated, I do
not support its prayer or intend to found
any Motion upon it.
Lord ST. LEONARDS having re-
quested that the prayer of the Petition
might be read by the Clerk at the table,
the Clerk read as follows :—
•
"Tonr Petitioner therefore prays your right
honourable Houae to appoint a Committee to in-
quire into the dlstinot Charge which has been
made ; and that if sooh Committee find* that Sir
Fitan^ Kelly has been guilty of that with which
he has been chsrjied, then that yonr right honour-
able House will join the other House of Parlia-
ment in moTing an Address to the Queen, praying
that Sir Fitzroy KeUy may be reliered from his
jttdioial position."
Thb lord CHANCELLOR: The
noble Earl (Earl Russell) was good enough
to giro nie a copy of the Petition which he
has presented for the purpose of sending
it to my right hon. and learned Friend the
Lord Chief Baron ; and I have receired
from him information which I trust will
enable me to answer the Petition fully and
satisfactorily. My Lords, I think the noble
Earl might have been excused if he had
declined to present a Petition of this
character ; and certainly the course he
has taken is one of an unusual de-
scription, for he has adopted the unusual
course of reading through every part of it,
and has, as he proceeded, given a refutation
of every charge contained in it ; I cannot
help thinking, then, that it would have
better beoome the noble Earl if he had,
under the circumstances, declined to take
charge of the Petition. I know an im-
pression prevails that if a petition is
couched in respectful terms to the House,
no Member ought to refuse to present it ;
but ever since I have had the honour of a
seat in your Lordships* House I have ven-
tured to act upon a different principle, and
I have exercised a discretion with reference
to petitions which have been intrusted to
me. I have no doubt that the noble
Earl was acting from a - different impres-
sion as to the duty of a Member of this
House; and I am quite sure I do him no
leas than justice when I say that he was
not very well pleased with the task which
his sense of duty compelled him to under-
take. Now, my Lords, assuming every
word of this Petition to be true, we must
not forget that the facts upon which these
most grave charges against the Lord Chief
Baron are founded took place no less than
thirty-two years ago, and that during that
long period my right hon. and learned Friend
has twice held the office of Solicitor Qene-
ral, and once that of Attorney General —
and the noble Earl was perfectly right in
saying that these offices are generally
looked upon as giving a sort of inchoate
right to the highest seat upon the judicial
bench — my right hon. and learned Friend
has also stood election tests ; he has re*
presented the county of Suffolk, I think,
in three different Parliaments, and your
Lordships will very well believe that if
there should be any moral stain upon the
K 2
268
The Lord
{LORDS)
Chief Barm.
se4
character of a candidate for Parliamentary
houoars it is likely to be drawn out in
the heat of a contested election. Your
Lordships may naturally wonder why Mr.
Rigby Wason lias kept silence so long,
and why he has chosen to speak at last.
This he explains, or endeaYOurs to explain,
in his Petition. He says that at the time
my right hon. and learned Friend was ap-
pointed Solicitor General be was applied
to by Sir Robert Peel to give information
as to
" the facta respecting the conduct of Mr.
Kelly, but be declined to do so on the ground
that he had no personal feeling in the nuitter, and
that Mr. Kelly could not inflict greater injury
upon the public as Solicitor General than he
could as a Barrister in full practice."
,The noble Earl forestalled me in the an-
swer to this statement when he remarked
that there was a very material di£ference
between a barrister in ordinary practice
and a person of that description being se-
lected by favonr of the Crown and placed
at the head of the profession, having thus
as it were a passport to the judicial bench.
The Petitioner says the reason he has
now ceased to be silent upon the subject
is —
" That your Petitioner submits to your right
honourable House that the appointment of a
Judge should be governed by very different prin-
ciples from those which might excuse the appoint-
ment of Solicitor or Attorney General ; and that
the precedent held out to the Bar, that wilful and
deliberate Fidsehood should be no bar to attaining
the position of a Judge, must be fraught with the
most disastrous consequences not only to the
character of the Bar but to Society."
I regret, my Lords, that I am obliged to
enter into matters of this description ; bat it
is absolutely necessary in order to explain
some of the statements of the Petition.
In 1837, then, Mr. Kelly was a candidate
for the representation of the borough of Ips-
wich, and one of the results of that candi-
dature was that Mr. Rigby Wason publicly
charged him with deliberate falsehood be-
fore a Committee of the House of Com-
mous. The laws of honour, as they are
called, which prevailed at that time, pre-
vented ^ man from sitting tamely under an
imputation of this description, and com-
pelled him to attempt to vindicate his
honour by washing out the affront by the
blood of his libeller. Few men were then
able to brave the public scorn which at-
tended any attempt to disregard this evil
custom, and your Lordships will look pro-
bably with some forbearance on the conduct
of my right hon. Friend in having de-
manded what is called " satisfaction " from
ITie Lord Chancellor
Mr. Rigby Wason. Mr. Rigby Wason
refused the meeting proposed by ICr.
Kelly; and on a consequent proceeding
of the latter, he applied for a criminal in*
formation against my right hon. Fnend for
endeavouring to provoke him to fight a
duel. This information failed, on grounds
which I shall presently explain. This being
the ground of the feeling of the Petitioner
towards Mr. Kellyi I have heard it said by
some, " Why not treat such charges as
this with profound contempt ? " But, un-
fortunately, a person charged in this House
in this way caunotafford to do so, because the
public will believe that such charges remained
unanswered only because they were unan-
swerable ; therefore, I must ask your Lord-
ships to allow me to go through the charges
contained in this Petition as briefly as I
can. The first charge is —
" That Sir Fitzroy Kelly, then Mr. Kelly, haviog
been eleren years at the Bar, and being a (Queen's
Counsel, did, upon the 11th of April, 1835, pledge
his Honor as a Gentleman to the truth of that
which he knew to be false, for the puipoee of de-
ceiving a Committee of the Hoose of Commons."
This charge is couched in the most vague
and general terms, and therefore only ad-
mits of a general denial ; but, fortunatel j»
an interpretation has been given to it iu
the letters to which the noble Earl alluded
as having been sent to my noble Friend at
the head of the Government, and to mj
right hon. Friend the Secretary of State
for the Home Department. In the letter
to my noble Friend Mr. Wason sayi —
" Sir Fitsroy Kelly was retamed to Parliament
in 1834 with Mr. Dundas. A petition was pre-
sented by electors of Ipswich, but supported by
my colleague and myself, and our senior counsel
opened sereral distinct charges of bribery ; among
others, one of the most important as a£feoting
agency was committed by Mr. Pilgrim. In reply,
Mr. Kelly assured the Committee, upon his honour
as a gentleman, that he had nerer heard of any
person of the name of Pilgrim, and actnally
charged as with having invented the story, whiob,
he said, was almost proved by the very name we
had selected."
Mr. Wason then goes on to say in hia
Petition —
^* That such judicial tribunal was deceived by
such assertions of Mr. Kelly's, and he received
the Fruits of his falsehood by the Committee de-
ciding < That no illegal act had been established
against Mr. Kelly and his Colleague.' That the
Committee then adjourned until the middle of
May, when it met, and proceeded with the Scm*
tiny, which was interrupted by the Pedtionem
producing distinct evidence proving beyond all
doubt that the assertions made by K&. Kelly were
fiUse. That the Committee, therefore, not only
rescinded the above Resolution, but resolved that
Mr. Kelly and his Colleague were, by their Friends
and Agents, guilty of BrUtery and Corruption, and
365
The Lord
{Febkuabt 12,1867)
Chief JBarofU
266
Oai the oppontion io the Petition wm friTolous
I will satisfj your LordBhipi that tliia
stitemeot was utterly incorrect. In 1834
Vr. Kelly waa returned with Mr. Dundaa,
fir Ipawich, and a petition, on the ground
of bribeiy, was presented against their re-
tarn. One of the charges was that one of
the Toters had been promised £20 hy a
man named Pilgrim, and that the money
bad mbsequently been paid by that person.
Wbca the ease arrired at the point where
it wu necessary to sum up on behalf of
tbe sitting Members, the coonsel were all
sbent« and my right hon. Friend was
obhged to take tbe duty upon himself. It
ii untrue that in doing bo he denied all
knowledge of Mr. Pilgrim. On the con-
tiarj, he referred to him as a clerk in the
employ of Messrs. Sewell and Blake, aoli-
citofs of Ipawich, with whom he had fre-
^neatly been in communication, and from
whom be had receiTed- many briefs. What
be contended was, that there was no evi-
deace of agency, and that, consequently,
there was no eyidenoe against the sitting
Members. The Committee having come
to that conclusion then adjourned for a
esnsiderable time for a scrutiny. Soon
after Pilgrim went over to the enemy's
camp snd appeared, and not only proved
tbe act of bribery to which I have re-
ferred, but also proved hia own agency in
tbe matter. Of course, under 'these cir-
cnmstances, the Committee had no other
coarse open but to rescind the Besolution
at which they had arrived. Now, it may
be asked, how do I prove that what my
light hon. Friend said was not faUe, as is
asserted by Mr. Wasou ? Mr. Wason as-
serts that my right hon. Friend denied all
knowledge of Mr. Pilgrim. It is very
hard to prove a negative; but it happens,
fortunately, that there were notes taken of
my right hon. Friend 'a speech by a short-
band writer, and from the beginning to the
ead of that speech, which has been care-
fslly searched through, not only by my
right lion. Friend, but by another gentle-
man, a barrister of reputation, there will
be found no passage to sustain this charge.
My right hon. Friend in a letter to Mr.
Walpole, and referring to thia speech, says :
** I have carefully looked through it from the
kegianing to end, and there is not ono word to be
feaod in it having tbe semblance of a deolaration
•ii honour, or an aseeKion, or a suggestion thst
Mr. Pilgrim was unknown to me, or l^t no suoh
fetum existed."
Mr. Pbillpotts, the barrister to whom I
bare alluded, writes as follows : —
*'Uj dear Lord Chief Baron.— Before attend-
ing the consultation of the late Solicitor General's
chambers, I oarefolly read yonr spoeohof the 11 th
and 13th of April, 1835, referred to by Mr. Wason
in his proposed Petition to the House of Commons,
and can confidently say that there is not in that
speech any such deolaration as Mr. Wason alleges ;
nor any assertion or suggestion that you did not
know Mr. Pilgrim ; nor a sentence that can be
distorted into meaning anything of the kind. In-
deed, certain passages in the speech appear wholly
inconsistent with any such declaration.-^ Belieye
me, yours sincerely, W. F. Phillpotts. '
There is another circumstance which I will
mention to yonr Lordships as bearing out
my statement. According to this statement
made by Mr. Wason, Sir FitzRoy Kolly
had been detected in the most discreditable
falsehood it is possible for a man to utter,
and this offence had been committed in the
face of the Committee and in the presence
of the opposing counsel. When the Com-
mittee re-assemhled my right hon. Friend
appeared as before, and summed up the
case for the sitting Members as he had
previously done. There was no disgust or
indignation exhibited on that occasion by
any Member of the Committee, nor did
the opposing counsel suggest in any way
that anything had occurred to render him
unworthy of credit or in the slightest degree
to disparage his testimony. Now, my Lords,
let me pass to the second chorge. That
second charge is conveyed in the following
words : —
" That your Petitioner humbly submits to your
right honourable House that the conduct of which
Mr. Kelly was guilty was precisely the same, morally
speaking, as wilful and deliberate perjury to bene-
fit himself, as stated by the late Lord Chief Justice
Ocnman, who rebuked Mr. Kelly's Counsel by
remarking, in an indignant manner, ' Do not go
on this way, Mr. Attorney ; this Court knows no
distinction between what a man swears and what he
says upon his honour as a Gentleman."
I am, fortunately, very easily able to ex-
plain this matter. At the election of 1837
to which I have already alluded, Mr. Wason
stated that my right hon. Friend, before a
Committee of the House of Commons, had
called God to witness that he had nothing
to do with the absconding of Mr. Pilgrim
to avoid the Speaker's warrant. The ob-
servation of Lord Denman referred to the
criminal information which Mr. Wason had
filed against my right hon. Friend. In
tiie affidavit Mr. Wason did not state, aa
he had stated at the hustings, that my
right hon. Friend had called God to witness;
but merely that he had asserted on hia
honour that he was no party to the ab-
sconding of Pilgrim. The affidavit of my
right hon. Friend denies tliat lie employed
either of the expressions, though he con-
^ tended that if he had said either it would
267
The Lard
{LORDS)
Chief Baron.
26Q
have been perfectly true. The Attorney
General who was counsel for my right hon.
Friend on that occasion, referred to^the
discrepancy between the assertion of Mr.
Wason in the affidavit and on the hustings
drawing a distinction between a mere as-
sertion and a statement upon oath. Lord
Benman, with an indignation which burst
forth whenever he had any idea there was
an intention of confounding moral distinc-
tions, said —
^ That Trhateyer a gfcntieman professes to de-
clare, appealing to his own knowledge on the
subject, must be taken to have been as solemnly
made as if any obligation or any form of words
had been appended to it."
But in delivering judgment, Lord Denman
expressed his opinion that there was no
proof that my right hon. Friend had made
use of the expression attributed to him by
Mr. Wason — he said that Mr. Wason would
not attempt to prove it, and would not
pledge his oath to that belief. Under these
circumstances, the criminal information fell
to the ground. And now, my Lords, I
come to the third charge, which is made
in the following terms :-^
"That your Petitioner has been informed and
belieyes that the late Sir Robert Peel, ten yean
afterwards, positively refused to appoint Mr. Kelly
as his Solicitor General, upon account of his con-
duct before the Ipswich Election Committee ; and
that the Right Hon. Gentleman's legitimate scru«
pies were overcome by a fraud/' •
Now, this charge amounts to this — that on
Sir Robert Feel hesitating to appoint my
right hon. Friend as his Solicitor Gener^
his scruples were removed by his having
palmed off upon him the evidence given
before the Committee, which was published
in the blue book, and which did not, of
course, contain my right hon. Friend's
speech, in which this remark complained
of was said to have occurred. Now, it so
happens that I am personally able to con-
tradict this charge. I was Solicitor Gene-
ral on the 28tb of June, 1845, when the
death of my lamented and very dear friend
Sir William FoUett, the Attorney General,
occurred. The funeral took place on tho
4th of July, and immediately after the
funeral I attended Sir Robert Peel by
appointment at Whitehall. He informed
me that I was to be made Attorney
General. I said, " Who is to be my
Solicitor?" He said "Kelly;" and
my right hon. Friend has the notiGca-
tion of his appointment to the Solicitor
Generalship on that very day now in his
possession. Some little correspondence,
of which I was not aware until it was com-
municated to me by my right hon. Friend,
The Imd Chancelhr
had passed between my right hon. Friend
and Sir Robert Peel in the interval elapsiii|(
between the death of Sir William Folleti
and my right hon. Friend's appointment.
About that time a question of privilege
was under discussion, and my right hon.
Friend was not so strong an assertor of
the privileges of the House of Commons
as Sir Robert Peel, and this occasioned m
correspondence ; and this was the occasion
of the delay — if there was any delay — and
not any unfavourable rumours against the
character of my right hon. Friend. I will
not apologize for trespassing thus much
upon your Lordships' attention, becauae the
question is one of the utmost importance.
If my right hon. Friend had been guilty
of the conduct attributed to him in this
Petition he would not attempt to defend
himself by saying that there ought to be a
limitation to charges of this description ;
and I should certainly agree in the opinion
that a person who is contaminated by soch
scandalous conduct as has been attributed
to my right hon. Friend is utterly unworthy
of being raised to the judicial bench. The
noble and learned Lord concluded by as-
serting that he had fully confuted the
charges of the Petition against the Lord
Chief Baron.
Lord ST. LEONARDS : tfy Lords, I
am unwilling to occupy your Lordships*
time further ; but I feel myself bound to
make an appeal to the noble Earl to with-
draw the Petition. The noble Earl must
be aware what is the constitutional mode
of proceeding against a Judge who is con-
sidered unfit to occupy his seat on the
judicial bench. In the first place, it is
necessary that there should be a direct
inquiry into the charges, at the Bar of your
Lordships* House and at the Bar of the
other House ; that Committees should be ap-
pointed by each to further inquire into the
matter ; and that there should be an agree-
ment between both Houses to present an
Address to the Crown praying that the
Judge should be removed from the judg-
ment seat. It is impossible that there can
be s question of deeper interest to the
entire country than such an inquiry. One
great element in the happinesa and the
glory of this country is the upright cha-
racter of the Judges who administer jus-
tice. Does the noble Earl believe for a
moment that if the Petition is permitted to
lie upon the table of the House, answered
as it can only be at present by the
denial of its truth, it is possible for
the Lord Chief Baron of England to ait
for another hour upon the judgment
S69
The Lord
{FsBRUABTli, 1867}
Cfht$f£m*on.
270
seat of tbe Exchequer ? Can he remain
there oatil the proper iteps have been
taken to investigate the truth or falsehood
of tbe charges which haye been brought
againjt him ? How can he sit to admi-
Di'iter justice with charges of this sort
^nging oTer htm — chargei which, if true,
would render him utterly unfit to sit in
the soeietj of geutlemen ? What would
bceooie of joatice when so administered ?
IiisTerj di£Sca1t in ordinary cases to make
s defeated suitor beliere that the judgment
sganist him is jnst, even where the cha-
raeter, honoar, and integrity of the Judge
is untainted ; but what would be the effect
spoD such a man*B mind when the character
of tbe Judge pronouncing the judgment has
boeo bronght before your Lordships' House,
OB allegations such as those contained in
the Petition presented by the noble Earl ?
The noble £arl has more than once been
Prime Minister in this country, and no
person is better versed than himself in the
steps that he is bound to take shonld he
insist upon the Petition laying upon the
table of the House. I utterly deny that
it is possible for him to lay that document
Bpon the table,' and then to withdraw from
farther interference in the matter, and
leaTe the whole responsibility upon your
Lordships. I trust that if the noble Earl
b impressed, as he says he is^-and there-
fore I am bound to believe that to be the
ease — with the truth of the Lord Chief
Baron's denial of the charges brought
sgainst him, he will handsomely withdraw
the Petition, and will not suffer it to remain
on the table of the House. It cannot
remain there without further steps being
taken ; and if it be not withdrawn it
is utterly impossible that the Lord
Chief Baron, with such terriblo imputa-
tions upon his character, can continue to
discharge his duties as the chief of the
Court of Exchequer. Upon the charge
itself I shall not dwell fire minutes. In
the first place, what does it amount to?
It appears that there was a contested elec-
tion, and unhappily the principal counsel
of the then Mr. Kelly, being unable to
attend on his behalf before the Committee
of the House, the right hon. Gentleman
wss induced at the last moment to address
tiie Committee on his own behalf — a most
mwise step undoubtedly — and in that
double capacity of both Member whose
seat was being contested, and of counsel,
be is said to have made a statement which
wss false to his knowledge. It is admitted
that if the right hon. Gentleman made the
itaCement, he must hare made it knowing
it to be false, because he had been for
years perfectly acqusinted with the person
in question. Is there any e?idence in
support of the charge that he denied on
that occasion all knowledge of this person ?
Not the slightest evidence exists which
can in any way substantiate the statement
contained in the Petition. The note taken
by our onn shorthand writer in Committees
does not contain a single syllsble in sup-
port of the charge. Who, then, is the only
other witness ? Why, the Petitioner him-
self— a person in hostility to the right hon.
Gentleman upon the particular question
before the Committee. But he makes
other statements in his Petition. He
states that when Sir Robert Peel wished
to make the right hon. Gentleman So-
licitor General, he hesitated to do so
on account of the right hon. Gentle-
man's bad character in reference to this
very question, but that he waa induced to
giro him the appointment in consequence
of the entreaties of Lord Lowther, now
the Barl of Lonsdale. The Earl of Lons-
dale has been spoken to upon the subject,
And he utterly denies that any such com-
munication passed between himself and Sir
Robert Peel on this subject, or that he
had any part whaterer in the adrancement
of the right hon. Gentleman. Can your
Lordships beliere that a gentleman of po-
sition at tbe Bar and a Member of the
other House of Parliament would so far
forget his honour and his feeling as a gen-
tleman as to pledge himself to a fact that
he knew to oe false } This attack was
first made in 1835, and from that moment
down to the present the right hon. Gen«
tlemsn has been continually before the
public, he has stood several contested elec-
tions, and has been returned six times
consecutively Member for bis county with-
out a single word in reference to this
matter being breathed against him. My
Lords, I call on the noble Earl opposite
to consider what a bad precedent hab been
made in this case; for where is the
roan whose character would be safe if,
on the ground of some speech or oon-
rersation two or three and thirty years
Ago, such a charge is to be bronght against
him, the object of which is to remove him
with ignominy from the high office he may
have attained ? Solemnly and seriously,
I ask the noble Earl before the world to
consider tho terrible consequences of the
step he has been induced to take. I ask
liim whether, in justice to my right
lion, and learned Friend, he does not con-
sider it his duty to withdraw this Petitiou ?
271
ne Lord
{LORDS!
Cfhief Baron.
272
Eabl RUSSELL : I hope jour Lord*
aBips will permit me to refer again to the
course I thought it my^dutj to take with
regard to this Petition. The ooble and
learned Lord on the Woclsaok has given
his opinion that it wouUf be better if on
occasions of this kind na^petition should be
presented. Now, I gtiite agree with the
noble and learned Lord that in a mat-
tor of private concern, without anj
pnblio object apparent, it would not be
right to present a petition of this kind to
your Lordships ; but this is the case of
a petition signed by a subject of Her
Majesty, asking Her Majesty for a remedy
which is pointed out by the Constitution—
namely, that a certain charge being made
and proved, your Lordships should address
the Crown to remove the Judge. I own it
appeared to me that if petitions of that
sort were refused by every Member of
your Lordships' House, far more injury
would be done than could result from their
presentation and discussion, and that eyery
kind of publicity would be given to the
charges by publication in the newspapers
without the opportunity of refutation. lu
the first place, there would be the appear-
ance of sliutting the doors of this House
against the petitions of the Queen's sub-
jects ; in the next place, the charges would
be repeated in the newspapers and pam«
phlets, and without the same opportunity to
the party charged of answering them.
My Lords, I did what I considered to be
my duty ; I took a copy of the Petition to
the noble and learned Lord on the Wool-
sack. I stated that I looked to him as
head of the law, and I asked him to have
the goodness to communicate to the Lord
Chief Baron the contents of the Petition.
I did this, that when the Petition was pre*
sented there might be a full opportunity of
an answer to the charges which it con«
tained. That opportunity the noble and
learned Lord on the Woolsack has fully
and properly availed himself of. He has
given a complete answer to all the charges
made. It appears to me a matter of the
greatest public importance that the cha-
racter of our Judges should remain, as I
am happy to think they have hitherto been,
unstained and pure in the ejen of the pub-
lic ; and I do confess that it appears to me,
my Lords, better that before an assembly
such as your Lordships, such charges
aliould be heard and refuted, than that
they should be suppressed, and that every
Peer should refuse to listen to a petitioner,
and that a person aggrieved should not
have the opportunity of saying that he iras
Zord 8t. Leonardo
not even allowed a hearing in the House of
Lords. That was the view I took of this
matter ; and I own I still think on an
occasion of this kind, where great consti-
tutional questions are concerned, that
publicity and debate, either in this or the
other House of Parliament, does tend to the
public welfiA*e. With regard to the request
which the noble and learned Lord who
last addressed your Lordships (Lord St.
Leonards) has made, I am not versed in the
proceedings of your Lordships' House with
respect to petitions of this kind, whether
they should be allowed to lie on the table
or be withdrawn. I am free to declare,
for my part, that I am ready to withdraw
the Petition. I would refer the matter to
the noble Earl the First Lord of the Tree*
sury, who is well versed in the proceedings
of the House. If he declares that it is in
conformity with the usual course of pro*
ceeding to withdraw the Petition, I am
quite ready to take that course. I am
fully satisfied that the character pf the emi«
nent Judge, so far as it is impugned in the
Petition, remains unstained ; and that the
subjects of Her Majesty may have full
confidence in the administration of justice
by that very eminent man, not only from
his knowledge of the law and great learn-
ing, but also his high personal character.
The EaUl or DERBY : My Lords, as
the noble Earl has referred to me, I will
say without the slightest hesitation that
if I had been led inadvertently to present
such a petition, I certainly should feel it
my duty to withdraw 'it after the discusaioa
' which has taken place ; and for this rea-
son, that if you present a petition and
move that it lie on the table, you express
an opinion as to the merits of the case.
But after the discussion which has taken
place, after the crushing refutation of
every single point, and the complete and
entire vindication of the right hon. and
learned person who was attacked, I do
think the House of Lords is bound to go a
little further than expressing no opinion
about it. After the debate and refutation
we shall only be doing our duty and sup-
porting our own dignity and character bj
refusing to allow this Petition to lie on the
table. I will not question the taste and
judgment of the noble Earl in bringing it 
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