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Hajerman  Collection 





Professor  Charles  Kendall  Adams 







30«  VICTORIiE,   1867. 





THE    FIFTEENTH    DAY    OF    MARCH    1867. 

^frtft  ^Dlttuit  t^i  V^t  lbe00iDn* 






Lo»])o2^ :  coBimjira  noK,  iiamESi,  2d|  patebkosxsb  bow» 

. .    I 





LOBDS,  TITESDAT,  PBBRTIART  5,  1867.  Pag€ 


The  Senon   of  Pablumsnt  opened  by  THE  QXTESN  in  Penon ;  The  Lobd 
Chascxlijob,  takii^  direetion  firom  Hbb  MuBsiTy  delirered 

Select  Vestries— 

Waa^  pro  formdf  read  1\ 

2D)iic00  to  ^tt  Plajetftg  m  fl|ec  Mwi  ffraciotifl  Sbftt^. 

Thb  QuBBsr's  Spbbch  having  been  reported  by  The  Lobb  Chakoex.lob  ;«- 

An  AddiesB  to  Hbb  Majbbtt  thereon  mwed  by  The  Earl  BeaiMhamp'^{Jih» 

Hotion  being  eeeonied  by  2%e  Lard  Delamerej  .  •  • .        9 

After  long  debatOi  Motion  agreed  to,  Ifemine  Dteeeniiente. 

Chaibieah  of  CoiQiiTTEBS — Tho  Lord  Bedbsdalb  appointedi  Nemine  Diseentienie, 
to  take  the  Quur  in  all  Ck)mmittee8  of  this  Honse  for  this  Seesion. 

CoiocrmsE  bob  TaxviLEiSBa^appointed, 

SuB-GomcirrEB  bob  thb  JomaAJU^^appointed, 

AmjLL  CoMxiTTEE — oppoinUd, 

ITew  Wxns  DtTBiere  the  Becesb  • .  . .  .  •      42 

New  Membbbh  Swobk  • .  •  •  • .  •  •       43 

Pbttilbsbs — Ordered,  That  a  Committee  of  Priyileges  be  appointed. 

OatlvHnies  BUI— 

Bin  "  for  the  more  effectual  preyenting  Clandestine  Outlawries/'  read  the 
first  time ;  to  be  read  a  seoond  time. 

Vbw  Wbi3s  Issued  .  •  .  •  , ,  •  •       43 

8^  Qittfn'0  Speecj^  reported — Besolution  for  an  humble  Address  thereon 

moved  by  Mr.  de  Oref — (the  Motion  being  seconded  by  Mr.  Graves)         . .      48 
After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to ;  and  a  Committee  appointed  to  draw  up 
the  said  Address. 

YOL,  CLXXXV.    [thibd  sbbibs.]  [  h  *] 



Queen's  Speeoh— Befobt  of  Addbssb  brought  up,  and  read: — ^After  short 
debatOi  offresd  to;  to  hepresmted  by  Priyy  Councillors : — ^To  be  eoMidered 
To-morrow     •  •  .  •  •  •  • .  . .       76 

Capital  FuKisHinnrT— Qnestioni  Mr.  Hibbert ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  •  •      78 

Finsbury  Estate  Bill — Ordered  (Mr,  Ayrttm,  Mr.  Loehe) ;  presenUd,  and  read  the  fint 

iimo    [Billl]  ..  ..  ..  ..  .,        78 

Annuity  Tax  Abolition  (Edinburgh,  Parish  of  Canongate)  BSSlr-Ordered 

{Mr,  M'Laren,  Mr*  Dunlop,  Mr.Bcdnet) ;  preiented,  and  read  the  flrsfc  time     [Bill  2]  79 

Joint  stock  Companies  (Voting  Papers)  Wl-Ordend  (Mr.  Daring  Grifith,  Mr. 

Robert  Torrengf  Mr.  Vanc€) ;  preemted,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  8]  •  •       79 


Masters  and  Operatives  Bill— Pr^t^^i  {The  Lord  8L  Zeonarde)] 

after  short  debate,  read  1*    (No.  3)  .  •  .  •  • .      79 

Public  Schools  BiXL— Presented  {The  Earl  of  Derby) ;  read  1*    (No.  4)  80 

AodDEMTS  IN  Coal  Mines — Address  for. 

Copies  of  a  Ciroular  Letter  from  the  Home  OflBoe  to,  and  Reports  from,  the  Inspectors 
of  Mines  to  the  Secretary  of  State  for  the  Home  Department  on  the  recent  Accidents 
and  Explosions  in  Coal  Mines  ;  together  with  the  Letter  of  Instruotions  of  29th 
January  1867,  from  the  Secretary  of  State  for  the  Home  Department  to  Blr.  Sothem 
the  recently  appointed  Inspector  of  Mines  :— ( The  Earl  of  £eivwre  ;)^ After  short 
debate,  a^tf{2  (0       ..  .«  ..  ••  ••       81 

Traffic  Begnlation  (Metropolis)  ma—Presented  {The  Earl  0/  Belmre) ;  read  1* 

(No.  0)  ••  ••  ••  ••  ••       81 

Us  Pendens  Bi]l—PresefUed  {The  Lord  St.  Leonards) ;  read  1*  (No.  6)  ..81 


Inj)ia  —  Faionb   in   Obissa  —  Question,  Mr.  Waldegraye-Leslie  ;    Answer, 

Yisconnt  Cranboume  .  •  . .  .  •  . .      82 

Mbbcantile  MABiNE^Qaestion,  Mr.  Candlish ;  Answer,  Sir  Stafford  Northcote      83 

Opening  op  the  Session— -Access  op  Members  to  the  House — Police  Oedees 

-—Questions,  Lord  Ernest  Brace,  Mr.  Crawford ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  83 

India — Indian    Budget — Question,  Mr.  J.  B.  Smith;    Answer,  Viscount 

Cranboume    •  •  •  •  • .  •  •  •  •      86 

H.M.S. '' Oannet "  AND  THE  "  Abouca " — Questiou,  Mr.  Lament;   Answer, 

Sir  John  Pakington  • .  • .  • .  •  •       87 

Sedsube  op  the   ^'Tobnado"   bt  the  Spanish  Authobities — Question,  Mr. 

Alderman  Lusk  ;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley     . .  . .  •••       88 

Supply — Queen's  Speech  c^iubr«i— Motion,  "  That  a  Supply  be  granted  to 
Her  Majesty :  "—Committee  thereupon  To-morrow. 

Bailway  Companies'  Arrangements  Bill- 
Motion  for  Lea^e  {Sir  Stafford  Northcote)      • .  . .  . .      89 
After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — BUI  to  make  better  provision  for  tihe 
arrangement  of  the  affairs  of  Bailway  Companies  unable  to  meet  their 
engagements,  ordered  {Sir  Stafford  Northcote,  Mr,   Caee^  Mr,  Attorney 
General) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  4.] 

Shipping  Local  Dues  Bill- 
Shipping  Lodal   Dues  considered  in  Committee:     after  short  debate,   a 

Besolution  agreed  to  thereon  .  •  . ,  . .     108 

Besolution  reported : — ^Bill  ordered  {Sir  Stafford  Northcote,  Mr.  Cats,  Mr. 

Hunt) ;  presented,  and  read  the  fint  time  [Bill  5.] 

Transubstantiatloii,  &c.,  Declaration  Abolition  BUI— 

TransnbBtaDtiatioii,  fto.,  Dedaration  Abolition  considered  in  Committee: 
after  short  debate,  a  Besolution  agreed  to  thereon  . .  . .     109 

Eesolntion  reported :— Bill  ordered  [Sir  Colman  (yZoghlen,  Mr.  Cogan,  Sir 
John  Oray) ;  presented^  and  read  the  first  time  [BiU  6.] 

Offices  and  Oaths  Bill- 
Offices  and   Oaths   considered  in  Committee:  after  debate^  a  Besolution 

dt^Mcl  to  thereon  ••  ..  ••  «•     111 

BfiBolation  reported  i—'BiHl  ordered  {Sir   Colman   (yZofhlen,  Mr.   Cogan, 

Sir  John  Cfray) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  7J 

KixcHsr  Airn  BsnassmnKNT  Booms  (Hoxra«  of  Coxxoirs)— 

gt^^w^ing  nommittflfl  appnimtsd  and  nnntinaied  ..  ..119 

Pbitilb6e — ^Fahphlet  07  Mb.  R.  S.  Fbancb — Statement,  Lord  Redesdale      . .     119 
Hs&  XAJxnrr's  Absweb  to  the  Addbbss  reported  •  •  • .     120 

Royal  Nayt — ^Motion  for  Returns — 

Motion,  That  there  be  laid  before  the  Honse, 

**  Rctom  of  the  Kninber  of  Ships  added  to  the  Royal  Nary  by  buildinff  or  purchase, 
statiDgtfae  Tonnage  of  each  Vessel,  from  the  Year  1860  to  1865  incIasiTe,"— ( TAtf 
Jhike  of  Somerset)    ..  ..  ..  ..     120 

After  debate,  Motion  amended  and  agreed  to. 

Ordered,  That  there  be  laid  before  this  House  Return  of  the  Number  of  Ships  added  to 

the  Royal  Navy  by  building  or  purchase,  stating  the  Tonnage  of  each  Vessel,  in  each 

Tear  from  the  Year  1860  to  1866  inclusire  : 
A  similar  Return  of  all  Ships,  stating  their  Description  and  Tonnage,  withdrawn  from 

the  Royal  Navy  by  Sale,  Lots  at  Sea,  or  otherwise,  during  the  same  respective  Years, 

^  The  Duke  of  Swnenet,) 

•Pboposed  Tbadeb  TJbiobs  Dbmovstbation  on  Mobday — Qnestion,  The  Earl  of 

Dadley ;  Answeri  The  Earl  of  Derby  -.—Short  debate  thereon  . .     136 


QpEEN*s  Speech -*HsB  Majesty's  Answeb  to  the  Addbess  reported  . .     144 

Ibdia — Qoestion,  Mr.  Kinnaird ;  Answer,  Yisoount  Cranboome  . .     144 

CaxxlbFlaoue  nr  the Meteopolis — Question,  Mr.  Dent;  Answer,  Mr.  Corry        146 

Cebtbal  India  Pbize  Monet — Question,  Mr.  Haryey  Lewis ;  Answer,  Yisoount 

Cranboume     ..  ,.  ..  .,  ..146 

The  Fbofessobship  of  the  Uniyebsity  of  Dctblin — Question,  Mr.  Yance; 

Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  . .  . ,  . .     146 

OuB  Monetaby  Laws— Question,  Mr*  Watkin ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the 

Excheqner      ..  ..  ..  ,.  ..147 

The  Holy  See  and  Russia— Question,  Mr.  Newdegate ;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley    147 

Movedf  *'  That  the  Honse  at  its  rising  do  adjourn  till  Monday J^ 

Law  of  Fobfettube— Question,  Mr.  Charles  Forster;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole      148 
Motion  agreed  to  .---House  at  rising  to  adjourn  till  Monday  nex}. 

SiTPPLY— Order  for  Committee  read : — 

BuaiHESs  OF  the  House— Question,  Mr.  Gladstone ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of 
the  Exchequer  ..  ..  ..  ..149 

Supply— Committee  on  Motion,  "  That  a  Supply  be  granted  to  Her  Majesty," 
— Queen's  Speech  referred : — ^Motion  considered. 
Beeohed^  ''That  a  Supply  be  granted  to  Her  Majesty.'' 

IFehruary  8.]  Pugs 

Metropolitan  Poor  Bill— 

Motion  for  Leaye  {Mr.  Oathome  Hardy)        . .  •  •      ^  •  •     150 

After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to  :'-Wl  for  the  establishment  in  the  Me- 
tropolis of  Asylums  for  the  Sick,  Insane,  and  other  classes  of  the  Poor,  and 
of  I)ispensaries ;  and  for  the  distribution  over  the  Metropolis  of  portions 
of  the  charge  for  Poor  Belief;  and  for  other  purposes  relating  to  Poor 
Belief  in  Uie  Metropolis,  ordered  {Mr.  Gathome  Hardy ^  Mr.  JBarU); 
presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  9.] 

Trades  Unions  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Secretary  WaJpole)     . .  . .  • .     179 
After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  for  facilitating  in  certain  cases 
'    the  pro^edings  of  the  Commisdoners  appointed  to  make  inquiry  respecting 
Trades  Unions  and  other  associations  of  employers  or  workmen,  ordered 
{Mr,  Secretary  WdlpoU,  Lord  John  Manners,  Sir  Stafford  Northcote.) 

Criminal  Law  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Eusseil  Oumey)        .  •  • .  •  •      205 
After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to: — ^Bill  to  remove  some  defects  in  the  ad- 
ministration of  the  Criminal  Law,  ordered  {Mr.  RusseU  Oumey,  Mr. 
Coleridge) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  8.] . 

CoKTBOVEBTXi)  ELEcnoKs — General  Committee  of  Eleotioni  appointed. 

Dublin  ITniversitj  ProfeflSOrships  Bill— RMolation  in  Committee  : — Bill  ordered 

{Mr.  Lamion,  Mr.  SuUwan) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  10]  • «     206 

MiKEs^Select  Committee  appointed, 

"  To  inanire  into  the  operation  of  the  Acts  for  the  Rejgralation  and  Inspection  of  Mines,  and 
Into  the  complaints  contained  in  Petitions  from  Miners  of  Great  Britain  with  reference 
thereto,  which  were  presented  to  the  Honse  during  Session  1865,"— {ifr«  Ayrton  ;)— 
(List  of  the  Committee.) 

Libel  Bill— ^^'^^'^  (Sir  Colman  O'LoghUn,  Mr.  Baines) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first 

time    [Bill  11]         ••  ••  ••  ..  ..     207 

Lakd  TfiinmE  (InSLAin))— Notice  {The  Marquess  of  Clanricarde)  • .     207 


Address  for  Returns  from  the  Eoolesiastical  Conunissionen  of  Ireland  {The 

Bishop  of  Down)  . ,  . ,  . .  .  •     207 

After  short  dehate,  on  Questioni  Resolved  in  the  Negativa. 


TuBiTPiKE  T&usTs — Question,  Mr.  Enatchbull-Hugessen ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole    210 

BtTHHiLL  Fields  Buxial  Gbound— Question,  Mr.  Crawford  ,*   Answer,  Mr. 

Walpole         ..  ..  ..  ..  ••211 

Railwat  TBAFnc  RBTvaHs^Question,  Mr.  Crawford;  Answer,  Sir  Stafford 

Northoote      • .  . .  , .  . .  •  •     212 

Postal  CoitHUNicAnoir  with  trx  East — Question,  Mr.  Crawford;    Answer, 

Mr.  Hunt       ..  ..  ..  ..  ..212 

Basbicade  AEotTirp  Htdb  Fasx— Question,  Mr.  Dyce  Niool ;  Answer,  Lord 

fohn  Manners      .  , ,  , .  . .  .  •     213 

FuBLio  Rscoans  of  Ibslard— Question,  Sir  Rowland  Blennerhasset ;  Answer, 

Lord  Naas      . ,  . .  . .  , .  • .     213 

Abht  Estimates— Question,  Captain  Gridley ;  Answer,  General  Peel  .  •     213 

False  Weights  akd   Measures  *•  Question,   Lord  Eustaoe  Ceeil;   Answer, 

Mr.  Walpole  ..  ..  ..  ..  ..213 

Tahaica— Genebal  O'Conkob— Question,  Mr.  Gilpin;  Answer,  General  Peel      214 

[FOnuMry  11.]  Pag$ 

IssusBEcnov  nr  Gbete — Qaestioiii  Mr.  Oregory;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley      •  •    214 


Fszi^graph  of  tlie  Queen's  Speech  read. 

Mmd,  "  That  on  the  25th  of  February  this  House  will  resolre  itself  into  a 
Committee  of  the  Whole  House  to  take  into  consideration  the  2  &  3 
Wm.  lY.  c.  45/'— (Ifr.  Chaneelkr  of  the  Exchequer)       . .  . .     214 

After  long  debate,  Motion  agrnd  to. 

ThfoOamng  are  the  SesohUume  referred  tohyihe  ChaneeUor  of  the  Sxehequer  :— 

This  House  having,  in  the  last  Session  of  Parliament,  assented  to  the  Second 
Beading  of  a  Bill,  intituled  "  A  Bill  to  extend  the  right  of  Yoting  at  Elections  of 
Members  of  Parliament  in  England  and  Wales,"  is  of  opinion, 

1.  That  the  number  of  Electors  for  Counties  and  Boroughs  in  England  and 
Wales  ought  to  be  increased. 

2.  That  suoh  increase  may  best  be  effected  by  both  reducing  the  ralue  of  the 
qualifying  Tenement  in  Counties  and  Boroughs,  and  by  adding  oUier  Franchises  not 
dqwndent  on  such  value. 

3.  That,  while  it  is  desirable  that  a  more  direct  Bepresentation  should  be 
given  to  the  labouring  Class,  it  is  contrary  to  the  Constitution  of  this  Bealm  to  give 
to  any  one  dass  or  interest  a  predominating  power  over  the  rest  of  the  Community. 

4.  That  the  Occupation  Franchise  in  Counties  and  Boroughs  shall  be  based 
upon  the  principle  of  Bating. 

5.  That  the  principle  of  Plurality  of  Votes,  if  adopted  by  Parliament,  would 
lidlitate  the  settlement  of  the  Borough  Franchise  on  an  extensive  basis. 

6.  That  it  is  expedient  to  revise  the  existing  Distribution  of  Seats. 

7.  That  in  such  revision  it  is  not  expedient  that  any  Borough  now  represented 
in  Parliament  should  be  wholly  Disfranchised. 

8.  That,  in  revising  the  existing  Distribution  of  Seats,  this  House  will  ac- 
knowledge, as  its  main  consideration,  the  expediency  of  supplying  Bepresentation 
to  places  not  at  present  represented,  and  which  may  be  considered  entitled  to  that 

9.  That  it  is  expedient  that  provision  should  be  made  for  the  better  prevention 
of  Bribery  and  Corruption  at  Elections. 

10.  That  it  is  expedient  that  the  system  of  Bogistration  of  Voters  in  Counties 
should  be  assimilated,  as  far  as  possible,  to  that  which  prevails  in  Boroughs. 

11.  That  it  shall  be  open  to  every  Parliamentanr  Elector,  if  he  think  fit,  to 
record  his  vote  by  means  of  a  polling  paper,  duly  signed  and  authenticated. 

12.  That  provision  be  made  for  diminishing  the  distance  which  Voters  have  to 
tavel  lor  the  purpose  of  recordbg  their  votes,  so  that  no  expenditure  fbr  such 
purpose  shall  hereafter  be  legal. 

18.  That  a  humble  Address  be  presented  to  Her  Majesty,  praying  Her 
MBjestj  to  issue  a  Boyal  Commission  to  form  and  submit  to  the  consideration  of 
Parliament  a  scheme  for  new  and  enlarged  Boundaries  of  the  existing  Parliamentary 
Boroughs  where  the  population  extends  beyond  the  limit  now  assigned  to  such 
Boroughs ;  and  to  fix,  subject  to  the  decision  of  Parliament,  the  Boundaries  of  such 
other  Boroughs  as  Parliament  may  deem  fit  to  be  represented  in  this  House. 

Valnatioii  of  Property  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  (Jtfr.  jE[unt)  •  •  . .  .  •    250 
After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  to  provide  for  a  Common  basis 
'    of  value  for  the  purposes  of  Government  and  Local  Taxation,  and  to  pro- 
mote uniformity  in  the  assessment  of  Bateable  Property  in  England, 
ordered   (Jtfr.   Bunt,  Mr.  Secretary   Walpole,   Mr,   Oathome    Hardy)  \ 
preeenkd,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill.l2.] 

[Fehrmrtf  11.]  Page 

FfiiKTiKo — Select  Cohmtttee — Cost  of  Papers— 

After  short  debatoi  Select  Committee  appointed  and  nominoM  • .     256 

FuBiio  Fetittoks— Select  Committee  appointed  and  nominated  . .     257 


The  Lobd  Chief  Babok— Petition  of  Rigby  Wason,  Esquire  {Earl  JRussett)       257 
After  long  debate,  on  Question,  That  the  Petition  do  lie  on  the  table  ?— 
Beeohed  in  the  Negative, 

Appbshxnded  DisTiTBBAiroEs  AT  Chesteb — Qucstion,  Lord  Stanley  of  Alderley; 

Answer,  The  Earl  of  Derby  .-.  •  •  •  •  r.  •     273 

TrafELo  Begrulation  (Metropolis)  Bill  (No.  5)— 

Mw>ed,  *'  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2^,**^Th$  Earl  of  Beltfiore)  1  . .     274 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  read  2*  accordingly,  and  referred 
to  a  Select  Committee, 
list  of  the  Committee      . .  . .  •  •  •  •     278 

British  North  America  Bill  [B,L,]-~Pre$enUd  (The  Earl  of  Camarvon)  ;  read  1« 

(No.  0)  ••  ••  ••  ••  ••     278 

Bale  of  Land  l^  Auction  Bill  [ii,h.]-^Pre8enUd  {The  Lord  St,  Leonards) ;  rwd  1* 

(No.  10)  ..  ..  ••  ••  ••     278 


Bailwat  Bills — Standibo  Obobbs — Question,  Sir  Colman  O'Loghlen ;  Answer, 

Colonel  Wilson  Patten         .  •  . .  . .  . .     279 

METBOPOLirAir  Cabs  aitd  Hackbet  Cabbuoe  Tbabe  (Metropolis)— 'Question, 

Mr.  Alderman  Lawrence ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  . .  . «     280 

Bbitish  Tboops   IB  New   Zealabb — Question,    Mr.  Oorst ;    Answer,  Mr. 

Adderley        . .  . .  . .  . .  . .     282 

ScuBYT — Question,  Mr.  Hanbury-Tracy ;  Answer,  Sir  Stafford  Northcote       .  •     282 

Scotch  Busibess -Question,  Mr.  Baxter;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  • .     283 

Eatibg  abd  Eebtals — Question,  Mr.  Bass ;  Answer,  Mr.  Guthome  Hardy  . .     284 

Appebhenbed  Distubbabces  at  Chesteb — Question,  Colonel  French  ;  Answer, 

Mr.  Walpole  ..  ..  ..  ..     284 

QfiABTS  FOB  FoBTiFicATioBS— Address  for  a  Eetum  {Colonel  Sgkee)  . .  *  288 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to, 

Artizans'  and  Labourers'  Dwellings  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  M'CuUagh  Torrent)     • .  . .  . .     290 
After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  to  provide  better  Dwellings  in 
Towns  for    Artizans   and    Labourers,  ordered  {Mr,  MCuUagh  Torrens, 
Mr,  Kinnaird,  Mr,  Locke) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  14.] 

Oommutation  of  Church  Bates  Bill— 

Moved^  ^'That  leave  be  given  to  bring  in  a  Bill  for  the  Commutation  of 
Church  Bates,"— (Jfr.  NewdegaU)  . .  . .  . .     294 

Prm>ioue  Question  vro^Bed,  "That^t  Question  be  now  put:" — {Mr.  Sad^ 
field:) — After  short  debate.  Previous  Question  withdrawn : — ^Main  Question 

Sut,  and  agreed  to, 
[  ordered  (^Mr,  Newdegate,  Colonel  Stuart)  \  presented^  and  read  the  first 
time  [Bill  15.] 

Industrial  Schools  (Ireland)  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  (Jifr.  Coleridge)  •  •  .  •  . .     296 
After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  to  extend  the  Industrial  Schools 
Act  to  Ireland,  ordered  {The  O*  Conor  Don^  Mr,  Monsell,  Mr,Leatham)i 
presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  17.] 

IFelruary  12.]  Page 

Tests  Abolition  (Oxford)  Bill— 

Tests  Abolition  (Oxford)  eonridered  in  Committee ;  a  Besolntion  agreed  to 
thereon  (Mr.  Coleridge)        . .  .  •  •  •  .  •     296 

Resolution  reported : — BiU  ordered  (Mr,  Coleridge,  Mr.  Grant  Duff) ;  preeented, 
and  read  ^e  first  time  [Bill  16.] 

Bailway  Debenture  Holders  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  (Mr.  Watkin)  . .  . .  . .     297 

After  short  debate.  Motion  Mreed  to  ;— Bill  for  affording  better  security  to 
the  holders  of  Bailway  Debentures,  ordered  (Mr.  Watkin,  Mr.  Alderman 
iSalonums,  Mr.  Zaing.) 

Associations  of  Workmen  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  (Mr.  Neate)  • .  . .  •  •  . .     299 
After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to :— Bill  to  exempt  Associations  of  Work- 
men from  certain  disabilities  for  a  limited  time,  ordered  (Mr.  Neate,  Mr. 
Ihomae  Sughee.) 

Church  Bates  Abolition  Bill— Onf^r^d  (Hu  Bardeoitle,  Mr.  Bainee,  Mr.  Trevelyan) ; 

prfteti^Ml, and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  1&]  ..  ••  ••     800 

Land  Tenure  (Ireland)  'BSH— Ordered  (Sir  Colman  (yLoghlen,  Mr.  OregoTff) ;  presented, 

and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  19]         ••  ..         ^  ••  ..     300 

Metbopolitak  Local  Govebihisnt,  &c. — Select  Committee  appointed,  "  to  in- 
quire into  the  Local  €K>vemment  and  Local  Taxation  of  the  Metropolis," 
— (Mr.  AyrUm :) — ^list  of  the  Committee  .  •  . .     300 

Finsbury  Estate  BiU  [Bill  l]- 

Maved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"— (l£r.  Ayrton)         . .     801 
Amendment  proposed,  to  leave  out  the  word  "  now,"  and  at  the  end  of  the 

Question  to  aad  the  words  "  upon  this  day  six  months/' — (Mr.  Sbwee.) 
After  long  debate,  Question  pu^  ''  That  the  word  '  now '  stand  part  of  the 

Question : ''—The  House  divided;  Ayes  53,  Noes  87;   Majority  84: — 

Words  added : ^^liBiXi  Question,  as  amended,  put,  and  agreed  to;— Bill 

put  off  for  six  months, 


BvHouaxD  DisiUBBAircBS  nr  Ibelavb— Question,  The  Marquess  of  Glanrioaide; 

Answer,  The  Earl  of  Derby  •  •  . .  , .     830 

PubUc  Schools  BiU  (No.  4)-- 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2\"-^  The  Earl  of  Derby)  . .     333 

After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to  : — Bill  read  2*  accordingly,  and  committed 
to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  Thursday  next. 

Of&ce  of  Judge  in  the  Admiralty,  Divorce,  and  Probate  Courts  Bill  [h.l.}— 

Fretented  (The  Lord  ChaneeUor) ;  roBdl^    (Nail)  ..  ..      334 

Hypothec  Amendment  (Scotland)  Bill  Iji.h.y'PretenUd  ( ne  Lord  Chancellor) ; 

readl*    (No.  13)     ..  ..  ..  ,.  ,.     334 


EuMomuED  DxsTUBBAircis  IN  Ibilhtd — Question,  Mr.  Bruen;   Answer,  Mr. 

Walpole         .,  ..  •       ..  ..  ..834 

Jakaica — Lboal   Pbocesdihgs  AOAnrsT  Offioebs— Question,   Major  Jervis; 

Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  . .  . .     836 

Colonial  Bishops— Question,  Mr.  Cardwell ;  Answer,  Mr.  Adderley  .  •     837 

RspsvsENTATioir  OF  THs  Feoplb — ^Thb  RBBOLT7Tioir8--Que6tion,  Lord  Robert 
Montagu ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer      .  •  •  • .    837 

[February  14.]  Page 

Spain  iim  Chilv— Qaefition,  lb.  Hon&U ;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley  • .    840 

Majob   Pallzseb— Reward  of  I5tbntob8— Qnestion,  Mr.   Henry  Baillie; 

Answer,  General  Feel  • .  . .  . »  . ,     840 

Labottbers'  Dweilibgs— Applioations  fob  Loans— Question,  Mr.   Goschen; 

Answer,  Mr.  Hunt  •  •  .  •  . ,  . .     841 

Loss  OF  THB  "Nobth"— Question,  Mr.  Enatchbull-Hugessen ;  Answer,  Sir 

Stafford  Northcote  ..  ..  ..  ..     342 

Tboops  AKD  Abhs  IK  Chesibb  Castle — ^Question,  Mr.  Owen  Stanley;  Answer, 

General  Feel  ..  ..  ..  ..     342 

FBoxonoire  ik  the  Natt — Question,  Mr.  Hanbnry-Tracy ;  Answer,  Sir  John 

Fakington      ..  ..  ..  ..  ..843 

DisTUBBAKCBS  AT  CHESTEB-^Question,  Mr.  Whalley ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  . .     844 

SueAB  DuTiBs — considered  in  Committee — (Mr.  Chaneelhr  of  the  £»ehequer.) 
After  long  debate,  Eesolutions  agreed  to  • .  .  •  . .     844 

Vice  Preeident  of  the  Board  of  Trade  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leaye  (Sir  Stafford  Northcote)      . .  .  •  •  •     359 
After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  for  abolubing  the  Office  of  Yice 
Fresident  of  the  Board  of  Trade,  and  substituting  a  Secretary  with  a  seat 
in  Farliament,  ordered\8ir  Stafford  Northcote,  Mr,  Gave,  Mr.  Sunt); 
presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  22.] 

Murder  Law  Amendment  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  (Mr.  Walpole)  .  •  .  •  . .     359 
After  debate.  Motion  agreed  to :  —  Bill  for  amending  the  Law  relating  to 
Murder,  and  for  giving  further  protection  to  New-bom  Children,  ordered 
(ifi*.  Secretary  Walpok,  Mr.  Attorney  General,  Mr.  Solicitor  General); 
presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  25.] 

Capital  Punishments  within  Prisons  BlU— Ordered  (Mr.  Secretary  WalpoU,  Mr. 

Attorney  Oeneral,  Mr.  Sdieitbr  Oenerat) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  24]      870 

Military  at  Elections  (Ireland)  "Bim— Ordered  {Mr.  Serjeant  Barry,  Major  Esmonds, 

Mr.  O^Beime) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  23]  .  •  .  •     370 

Pamphijet  ov  Mb.  R.  S.  Fbanob — Personal  Explanation,  Lord  Redesdale     • .     370 

DuTUXBAHcns  IK  iBBLAKD^Qoestion,  The  Earl  of  Shaftesbury;  Answer,  The 

Earl  of  Derby  • .  . .  .  •  . .     371 

EicFLOTicsNT  OF  YoLTTNTEEBS  vx  CiYiL  DisTnBBA.NOBs— Qaostion,  Lord  Yiyian ; 

Answer,  The  Earl  of  Belmore : — Debate  thereon  • .  •  •     371 

Ghubok  or  Ekolakd  in  thb  Colonies — ^Address  for  Papers  (The  Bishop  of 

London)  . .  • .  .  •  . .  • .     878 

After  debate,  Motion  agreed  to. 

Baooyery  of  certain  Debts  (Sootlaad  Bill  [nx^y^PresenUd  (The  Lord  ChaneeUor) ; 

readl*    (No.  14)      ..  ..  ..  ••  ••     400 

Conseeration  of  Chnrchyards  Bill  lnA.y^Pressnted  (The  Lord  Redesdale);  read  1* 

(No.  15)  ..  ••  ••  ••  ••     400 


DisTUBSAKOES  IN  Ibeiand— Qaostion,  Mf.  C.  Fortesone ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole    400 

Mbtbobological  Depa.bticent  07  THE  BoABD  07  Tbade  — QaestioB,  Colonel 

Sykes ;  Answer,  Sir  Stafford  Northoote       . .  . .  . .     401 

Cattlb  PuLGin— Question,  Mr.  Read ;  Answer,  Mr.  Corry        . .  . .     402 

Coiooss^oN  ON  RAiLWi^TS— Qaestion,  Mr.  Pim ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  •  •    404 

l^Fehruary  15.]  Pa^a 

Yaccinatiok — Question,  Hr.  Bruce;  Answer,  Mr,  Corry  •  •  • .     404 

SvALL  TsNEMERTs  BiiLTHTO  AoT — Qaestion,  Mr.  A.  Peel;  Answer,  Mr.  G.  Hardy    404 

CoBXTTTnoir  at  ELEcnoirs— The  Bsfobh  Ebsoltttions — Question,  Bir  Arthur 

Buller ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  . .  . .     405 

Natal  Yaeds — Question,  Lord  Robert  Montagu ;  Answer,  Sir  John  Pakington     405 


Supply — Order  for  Committee  read;  Motion  made,  and  Question  proposed, 
"  That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chair  :" — 

IirsuiLBBCTioK  IK  Cretb — Sebyia — Amendment  proposed. 
To  leaye  oot  from  the  word  "  That "  to  the  end  of  the^Question^  in  order  to  add  the  wordi 
''  an  humble  Address  be  presented  to  Her  Majesty,  that  She  wiU  be  graciously  pleased 
to  gi?e  direotions  that  there  be  laid  before  this  House,  Copies  of  any  Correspondence 
between  the  Foreign  Office  and  Foreign  Goyemments  on  the  subject  of  the  insurrection 
in  Crete  and  the  Turkish  Fortresses  in  Ser?ia ;  and  of  any  Reports  from  our  Consular 
Agents  on  these  subjecti,"^l&.  Gregory,) — instead  thereof  . .  . .     406 

Question  proposed,  "  That  the  words  proposed  to  he  left  out  stand  part  of  the 
Question:" — Amendment  and  Motion,  hy  leave,  mthdraum: — Committee 
defirred  till  Monday  next. 

SuGAB  DtniBS — ^Besolutions  [February  14]  reported;  and,  after  short  debate, 

agreed  to         , ,  , .  . .  . .  . .     450 

DuTT  OK  Does — Duty  on  Dogs  considered  in  Committee :  after  short  debate, 

a  Eesolution  agreed  to  thereon  ;  to  be  reported  on  Monday  next  . .     451 

Execution  of  Deeds  BHl—Ordered  {Mr,  Ooldney,  Mr,  Leeman^  Mr,  Powell) ;  preeented, 

and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  26]       ..  ..  ..  ..      452 

Spiritual  Destitution  BHHIl-'Ordered  {Mr,  AyrUm,  Mr,  Beresford  Hope) ;  presented,  and 

read  the  flrit  time    [BiU  27]  ..  ..  ..  ..     452 


Fbiyilegb— Fahphlxi  07  Mb.  R.  S.  Feavce— On  Motion  of  Zord  Eedesdale, 
Ordered  that  Mr.  R.  S.  France  ^do  attend  at  the  Bar  of  this  House 
To'tnorrow      .  •  •  •  •  •  • .  . .     452 

Habeas  Cobpits  SrsFXNsioir   (Ibeland)  Act — Questions,  The  Earl  of  Essex, 

The  Earl  of  Leitriin;  Answer,  The  Earl  of  Derby  . .  . .     453 

RoTAL  Commission  oir  Railways — The  Ibish  Lines — Question,  The  Marquess 

of  Clanricarde;  Answer,  The  Earl  of  Derby  •  •  • .     457 

Alimony  Arrears  Bill  la,L,y*FretenUd  { The  VUcount  Lifford) ;  read  1*  (No,  17}    . ,      458 


Abmt  EsmcATEs— ObservationB,  General  Feel  . .  •  •     459 

iBELAKn — ^Railways — Question,  Mr.  W.  Ormsby  Gore ;  Answer,  Sir  S.  Northcote    459 

The  Ecclesiastical  Establishment    in    Jamaica  —  Question,    Mr.    Baxter ; 

Answer,  Mr.  Adderley  . .  .  •  • .  • .     460 

Impobtaiion  of  Cattle — Question,  Mr.  Eykyn;  Answer,  Mr.  Corry  . .     460 

Ibeland— Doczs  IN  Cobk  HABBOt7Bp*Question,  Mr.  Murphy ;  Answer,  Sir  John 

Faidngton       •  •  • .  . .  • .  ...  460 

SoonAND— Sanitabt  LAws^Question,  Sir  R.  Anstruther ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole    46 1 
Aobicultubal  Statistics — Question,  Mr.  M'Lagan  ;  Answer,  Sir  S.  Northcote     461 

Ibbland  — -  Watbbfobd   Election  — ^  Question,   The    O'Donoghue ;    Answer, 

General  Feel  •  •  • .  . .  . .     462 

Abmt — Milttabt   Stobb   Defabtment— Question,  Mr.   Oliphant ;    Answer, 

Mr.  Hunt       •  •  • .  . .  • .  . .     463 

Abmt^-Cobfobal  Funishment— Question,  Mr.  Otway ;  Answer,  General  Feel      463 
YOL.  CLXXXV.    [thikd  sebies.]  [  c  ] 


[Fehmry  18.]  P<yr# 

Metbopolis — ^Fabx  Lans  AiTB  Balkdx  Stbsbt— Qaestioiii  Sir  Henry  Winston 

Barron ;  Answer,  Lord  John  Manners        • .  •  •  . .     465 

B.EFBS8BKTATI0H  OF  THE  FsoFLx — Tbz  Resolotionb— Qoostion,  Ifj.  Sclater- 

Booth ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  . .  . .     465 

Stavdabds  07  Weights  and  Mbastjbbs— Question,  Mr.  Miller*;  Answer,  Mr. 

Stephen  Cave  . .  . .  . .  , .     466 

Watebwobes  Bill— Question,  Mr.  A.  Egerton ;  Answer,  Sir  Stafford  Northoote    466 

ExTBADiTioH  OF  M.  LAMiBAKDE^Question,  Mr.  M'Cullagh  Torrens ;   Answer, 

Lord  Stanley  ..  ..  ..  ..     4^7 

Abmt — QuABTEBVASTEBS    OF    MiLiTiA — Questiou,  MsjoT  WalkoT  ;    Answer, 

General  Peel  . .  . .  . .  . .     467 

Rrpbesentatioe  of  THE  Pbople — Fbanohises— Question,  Mr.  Baines ;  Answer, 

The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  . ,  • .  « .     467 

Theatbes,  ftc— Question,  Mr.  O'Beime ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  . .     468 

Ibeland^-Chabitable  BEaxTESTS-^Question,  Mr.  Blake ;  Answer,  Lord  Naas        468 

Ibelaitd  — The    Yabtbt  Watebwobks  — Question,   Mr.    Yance;     Answer, 

Lord  Naas  , .  .  •  . .  . ,     469 

iBELAim — Eeeiah  Distubbakces  nr  Eebbt —-Questions,  Colonel  OreTille,  Mr. 

Bruen ;  Answer,  Lord  Naas  • .  • .  •  •     469 

Vice  President  of  the  Board  of  Trade  Bill- 
After  shert  debate.  Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  cammiUed  for  Thursday      . ,     470 

SuGAB  Ditties —Sugar  Duties  eotmdered  in  Committee:   after  short  debate, 

a  Besolution  agreed  to  thereon ;  to  be  reported  on  Wedneeday  . .     472 

Duty  on  Dogs  Bill— 

Besolution  [February  15]  reported,  and,  after  short  debate,  iigreed  to         . .     474 
Bill  ordered  {Mr.  Dodson,  Mr.  Bunt,  Mr.  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer.) 

Supply — Order  for  Committee  read  ;  Motion  made,  and   Question  proposed, 
"  That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chair  :"— 

Co]QCA2n)ER    Sateb's    Life   Boat— Question,  Mr.  KnatchbuU-Hugessen  ; 
Answer,  Sir  John  Pakington  . .  .  •  .  •     476 

Mr.  Statkeb,    late   Deputy   Posticasteb   Oenebal,    Cavada— Question, 
Mr.  Childers ;  Answer,  Mr.  Hunt  • .  . .  *• .     479 

Repbesentation  07  the  People — The  Besolutioks — Question,  Mr.  Ayrton; 
Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer: — Long  debate  fhereon         •  •     480 

Motion,  "  That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chair,''  agreed  to. 

SUPPLY — SuppLEKEKTABY  CiYiL  Sebyices  1866-7 — comidered  in  Committee. 

(1.)  £45,721,  Purchase  of  the  Blaoas  Collection  of  Coins  and  Antiquities  for 
the  British  Museum  . .  •  •  .  •     491 

After  debate,  Yote  agreed  to. 
(2.)    £165,309,  Boyal  Palaces  ..  ..  ..497 

After  debate,  Yote  agreed  to, 
(3.)  £101,800,  Anglo-Chinese  FlotiUa  . .  . .  . .     512 

After  short  debate,  Yote  agreed  to. 
Resolutions  to  be  reported  on  Wedneedag. 

Trades  UxiionB  BiU  [BiU  18]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,*'— *(i&.  Walpole)  • .     513 

After  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  a  second  tune,  and  committed  tor 

[Ffbruarif  18.]  Page 

Adiniralty  Jurisdiction  Bill— 

MotioD  for  Leave  [Sir  Stafford  Northeote)      . .  . .  . .     529 

Afiter  dioit  debate,  Bill  for  extending  and  regulating  the  Jarisdiction  of  the 
High  Court  of  Admiralty,  and  for  conferring  Admiralty  Juriadiotiou  on 
the  County  Courts,  ord&r^  (Sir  Stafford  NorthcoU^  Mr.  Attorney  Om&ral, 
Mr.  Caee)  \  preiented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  28.] 

Tenants  Improvements  (Ireland)  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  {Lord  Ifaas)  . .  •  •  • .     530 
After  long  debate,  Bill  to  promote  the  improvement  of  Land  by  occupying 
Tenants  in  Ireland,  ordered  {Lord  Naae,  Mr,  Solicitor  General  for  Ireland) ; 
preaenied,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  29.] 

Land  Improvement  and  Leasing  (Ireland)  B^-^Ordered  {Lord  NauUf  Mr,  Solieitor 

Gerieralfar  Ireland) ;  presenUd,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  30]       . .  • .     656 

Pumjc  AcooiTifTs — Committee  of  Public  Accounts  nominated  •  •     556 

Land  Improvement  Contracts  (Ireland)  Wl—Ordered  (Mr.  Agar-EUte,  Colonel 

frenchj  ••  ••  ••  ••  t*     556 

Land  Tax  Commisaionem'  Names  Wl^Ordered  (Mr.  Bunt,  Mr.  Chancellor  of  the 

Eacheqaer) ;  preeented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  81]  •  •  •  •     556 

Pinmsox — ^Ub.  R.  S.  Fbakce's  Pahphlet — Select  Committee  appointed     ,  •     556 
BritiBh  North  America  Bill  (No.  9)— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2*,"— (TA^  JSiW  of  Carnarvon)      .      . .     557 
After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — BUI  read  2*  accordingly,  and  cam' 
mitted  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  Friday  next. 


Law  of  Mobtmaik — Question,  Mr.  Hadfield ;  Answer,  The  Attorney  General       583 

CiPTAur    Deslandes   of   th£    '' Anke "—Question,  Mr.  Guinness;   Answer, 

Sir  Stafford  Northcote  •  •  .  •  • .  . .     563 

TsABK  nr  AiOHAis— -Qaestion,  Mr.  M*Lagan ;  Answer,  Mr.  Corry  •  •     584 

AsMT — ^Mebical  Officebs  of  the  Brigade  of  GuAsns — Question,  Sir  Robert 

Anstmther ;  Answer,  General  Peel  . .  . .  . .     584 

Oksamxttai,  Watebb  in  the  PAEKS—Question,  Mr.  H.  B.  Sheridan ;  Answer, 

Lord  John  Manners  .  •  . .  , .  • .     584 

lEE£.Ain>-^R£fOBic  BiLL — Qucstion,  Mr.  Brady;  Answer,  Lord  Naas  .  •  585 

LrsPEcnov  of  Coluebibs — Question,  Mr.  Edwards ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole    .  •  585 

The  Ship  "  Tobnado  "^Question,  Mr.  Crum-Ewing;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley  586 

ScoTLAsn — FooB  L^w — Question,  Sir  R.  Anstmther ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  . .  586 

Cattle  Plague  nr  Cheshibe — Question,  Mr.  Tollemache ;  Answer,  Sir  Stafford 

Northcote        . .  . .  . .  .  •  •  •     586 

Affaibs  of  Cbete — Question,  Sir  Harry  Yemey ;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley       •  •     587 

D0CXTA.BDS  —Resolution — Motion, 

"  That,  in  the  opinion  of  this  House,  the  control  and  management  of  the  Dockyards  is 

inefllelent,  and  that  the  ineffioienoy  may  be  attribated  to  the  foUowing  oauses  :— 
Ist.  The  constitution  of  the  Board  of  Admiralty ; 
2nd.  The  defeotire  organisation  of  the  subordinate  departments  ; 
drd.  The  want  of  dear  and  weU-defined  reaponsibiUty,  — (3^.  Seely,)  ••      588 

After  long  debate,  Frecioue  Queetion  proposed,  "  That  that  Question  be  now 

put,"— (6fir  John  PakingUm)  . .  .  •  . .     604 

Alter  further  long  debate,  Previom  Q^e8^ion  and  Motion,  by  leave,  toithdrawn. 

[Februarf/ 19.]  Pag0 

Mines,  &c.,  AsBessment  Bill— 

Motion  for  Leave  (Mr.  Percy  Wyndham)        .  •  .  •  • .     649 

After  short  debate,  Bill  to  assess  Mines,  Woodlands,  and  Plantations  to  Local 

Rates,  ordered  {Mr.  Percy  Wyndham^  Mr.  Cavendieh  Bentinck,  Mr*  Hen- 

dereon) ;  preeented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  3d.] 

Sunday  Trading  Bill— 

Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Thotnas  Hughes)  . .  . .  . .     653 

After  short  debate.  Bill  to  amend  the  Laws  relating  to  Selling  and  Hawking 
Goods  on  Sunday,  ordered  {Mr.  Thomas  Hughes^  Lord  Claud  HamtlUm^ 
Sir  Brook  Bridges)  \  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  34.] 

CONTBOVERTEI)  ELECTIONS — GhATRKEK's  PanEL  ,  .  »  .       664 


Annuity  Tax  Abolition  (Edinburgh,  Pariah  of  Canongate) 
Bill  [Bill  2]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time," — {Mr.  McLaren)        . .     655 
Amendment  proposed,  to  leave  out  the  word  *'  now,''  and  at  the  end  of  the 

Question  to  add  the  words  "  upon  this  day  six  months,"— (iSir  James 

After  long  debate,  Question  put,  ''  That  the  word  <  now '  stand  part  of  the 

Question :  " — Ayes  74,  Noes  107  ;  Majority  33  : — ^Words  added: — ^Main 

Question,  as  amended,  put,  and  agreed  to  : — Bill^u^  off  for  six  months. 

Division  list.  Ayes  and  Noes  •  •  •  •  .  •     677 

Criminal  Law  BUI  [BiU  8]— 

Moved,  **  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,'* — {Mr.  Russell  Ourney)      678 
After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  the  second  time,  and  com' 
mitted  for  Wednesday,  13th  March. 

SUPPLY— Supplementary  Civil  Sebvices  1866-7— 

Eesolutions  [February  18]  reported. 

Vote  £600,  Houses  of  Parliaii^ent  ..  •.  ..681 

After  short  debate,  Vote  agreed  to. 
Vote  £50,000,  XJniyerscd  Exhibition  at  Paris  . .  . .     683 

After  short  debate,  Yote  agreed  to.  '* 

Eesolutions  agreed  to.  ■ 

Sale  and  Purchase  of  Shares  Bill—  ^  - 

Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Leeman)  . .  .  •  . .     690 

After  short  debate.  Bill  to  amend  the  Law  in  respect  of  the  Sale  and  Purchase 
of  Shares  in  Joint  Stock  Banking  Companies,  ordered  {Mr.  Leeman,  Mr* 
Waldegrave-Leslie,  Mr.  Ooldney);  presented,  and  read  the  first  time 
[Bill  38.] 

Habeas  Ck>rpus  Suspension  (Ireland)  Act  Continuance  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  {I,ord  Naas)  . .  . .  . .     690 

After  debate.  Bill  ordered  {Lord  Naas,  Mr.  Solicitor  General  for  Ireland) ; 
presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  35.] 

Railways  (Guards'  and  Passengers'  Communication  BiUr-Ordered  {Mr.  Henry  B. 

Sheridan,  Sir  Patrick  (/Brien)  ;  preunUd,  and  read  the  first  time  [BiU  SO]  . .       605 

Marriages   (Odessa)  Bill— Ord^^  (Mr.  Secretary  WalpoU,  Mr.  Attorney  General) ; 

presented,  and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  40J  .  •  •  •  •  •      605 

Criminal   Lunatics   Bill  —  Ordered  {Mr.  Secretary  WalpoU,  Mr.  AUomey  Oeneral) ; 

presented,  a.nd  read  ihb  tni  iim»    [Bill  41]  ..  ••  ••      605 

Sugar  Duties  BSX—PresenUd,  and  read  the  first  time    [BiU  37]  .  •  •  •      605 

Ihltj  on  Dogs  BxHr^PresenUdt  and  read  the  first  time    [BiU  36]         •  •  •  •      605 



Masters  and  Operatives  Bill  (No.  8)— 

Mwd,  -'  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  Vt'—[Lord  St.  Lsonardi)  . .     696 

After  ahort  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  2*  accordingly,  and  eom- 
wUUed  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  JWanday  next. 

Lis  Pendens  Bill  (No.  6)— 

Ma9^  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2%''— (Zort^  SL  Zeonarda)  . .     698 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — BiU  read  2*  aooordingly,  and  com- 
mitted  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  Monday  next. 

Sale  of  lisnd  by  Auction  Bill  (No.  10)— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2%*'-^{Zord  St.  Leonarde)  . .     700 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  read  2*  aooorduigly,  and  com" 
mitted  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  Mondag  next. 

Revosm — BoBOVOH  QuAUjncATioH — Moved, 

Thftt  in  the  Opinion  of  this  Hoiue,  in  tLBj  further  Scheme  to  amend  the  Reform  Aot  of  1883 
and  tnerease  the  Bodj  of  Electora,  it  is  not  desirable  or  neoeesary  that  all  Boroughs 
should  return  Memhers  hj  the  same  (^nallfloation, — (Lord  Campbell)  , ,      701 

After  debate.  Motion  withdraum. 
Mb.  Filctce's  Paxphlet — Select  Committee  namituited        .  •  , ,     7ig 

PftiTATs  Bills — Standing  Order  Committee  oji^appointod  and  nominated       • .     719 


Ikelafd  —  Education  Cokitissiovebb  —  Qaeation,    Mr.    Lanyon ;    Answer, 

Lord  Naas      •  •  . .  •  •  •  •  , .     720 

SooicH  BusiHsss— Question,  Mr.  Baxter ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  , ,     721 

QuAjuKTDrE   or   THS   West    IimiES  —  Qoestion,  Captain  Speirs ;   Answer, 

Mr.  Adderlej  ..  ..  ..  ..721 

West   Iediss — Mobxalitt   nr    the   Habboub   of  St.   Thovas — Qaestion, 

Captain  Speirs  ;  Answer,  Mr.  Adderley      . .  . .  , ,     722 

Jmsllbtd  —  Watzbjtobi)  Election  «—  Question,  The  O'Donoghue  ;    Answer, 

General  Peel  .  •  •  •  . .  , ,     723 

Cattle  PtAoxTB—Qaestion,  Mr.  Fordyce ;  Answer,  Mr.  Corry  , .     724 

CorBTs  or  Jttstice   Concentbation  Act— Question,  Mr.  Bentinok;  Answer, 

Mr.  Hunt       • .  . .  • .  . .  . .     725 

Abxt — ^Abtilleby — Stud    Shot — Question,    Mr.    Henry   Baillie  ;    Answer, 

General  Peel  • .  •  •  • .  .  •     725 

Scotland— Education — Question,  Sir  Edward  Colebrooke;  Answer,  Mr.  Corry     725 

Gbants  to  Missionabies — Question,  Mr.  Candlish ;  Answer,  Mr.  Adderley  726 

Lancasteb  Election  Cohkission  Repobt — Question,  Colonel  Wilson  Patten; 

Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  .  •  . .  •  •  • .     726 

Habeas    Corpus    Suspension    (Ireland)    Act    Continuance 

BiU  [Bill  35]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time/' — {Zord  Naae)       ^      •  •     727 
After  long  debate.  Motion  agreed  to  : — ^Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed 
for  To-morrow. 

MetropoUtan  Poor  BiU  [Bill  9]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"— (i/r.  Oathome  Hardy)     746 
After  long  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committer 
for  Thwreday,  7th  March. 

IFebrtMry  21.]  Page 

Duty  on  Dogs  Bill  [BUI  86]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"— (ifr.  Hunt)  . .     780 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to :— Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  com- 
mittedtoT  Mondaiy  next. 

Ballway  Debenture  Holders  Bill  [Bill  20]— 

Movedf  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"— (Ifr.  Watkin)  . .     781 

After  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed  to 
a  Select  Committee. 

List  of  the  Committee  . .  . .  . .     791 

Church  Bates  Regulation  BxR-^Ordered  {Mr,  Hubbard,  Mr,  Bereiford  Hope) ;  pre- 

sented,  and  read  the  first  time  [BUI  42]  . .  • .  •  •     791 

London  Coal  and  Wine  Dnties  Continuance  Bill— Rmolntion  la  Committee:— 

Bill  ordered  {Mr.  Dodson,  Lord  John  Mannere,  Mr,  Munt) ;  preeented,  and  read  the 

first  time  [BiU  43]  ..  ..  ..  ..     791 

Lyon  ITiTig  of  Anna  (Scotland)  Bill — Ordered   {Sir  Graham  Montgomery,  Mr* 

Secretary  Walpole,  Mr,  Bunt) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  44]  . .     79 1 


Heb  Royal  Hiohxess  the  Pbotcess  of  Wales — An  humhle  Address  to  Her 

Majesty— (Wtf  JSarl  of  Derhy)^Agreed  to,  Netnxne  DissentierUe  . .     791 

Tenure  of  Land  (Ireland)  Bill— 

A  Bill  to  simplify  the  Law  of  Tenure  in  Jielejid-'Preeented  {The  Marquess  of 
Olanricarde  :)'^Mo9ed,  *'  That  the  BiU  he  now  read  1%"— ( The  Marquess 
of  Olanriearde)  ..  ..  ..  ..     793 

After  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  read  1\  and  to  he  printed.    (No.  23.) 

British  North  America  Bill  (No.  9)— 

Bill  considered  in  Committee,  after  debate       . .  . .  .  •     804 

Amendments  made  :  The  Report  thereof  to  be  received  on  Monday  next. 

Fatefcs  pob  the  Imp&oveicekt  of  Small  Asms — Question,  Viscount  LifEbrd ; 

Answer,  The  Earl  of  Longford  . .  . .  • .     807 

Habeas  Gobfus  Suspension  (Ibelakd)  Act  CoirmarANCE  Bill  — Notice  {The 

Ea/rl  of  Derby)  ..  ..  ..  ..808 


Sakitabt   Condhion    of   Wales  —  Question,  Sir  Thomas  Lloyd ;   Answer, 

Mr.  Corry  , ,  . .  . .  • .     809 

Adhiealty  Steebino  and  Sailing  Rules — Question,  Mr.  Holland;  Answer, 

Sir  John  Fakington  . .  . .  . .  •  •     809 

Holyhead  TJnion — Question,  Mr.  Owen  Stanley;  Answer,  Mr.  0.  Hardy      . .     810 

Postal  Sebtice  with  the  United  States  —  Question,  Mr.  Baxter ;   Answer, 

Mr.  Hunt       ..  ..  ..  ..  ..811 

PooB  Law — Rating  of  Chabitable  Institutions  —  Question,  Mr.  Biddulph ; 

Answer,  Mr.  Earle  . .  . .  . .  . .     811 

Abitt — GoTEBNMENT  PowDEB  MAGAZINES — Quostion,  Mr.  Soijeant  Einglake; 

Answer,  General  Peel  •  •  . .  . .  • .     812 

SuGAB  Duties— Dbawbaob  on  Sugab — Question,  Mr.  Crum-Ewing;  Answer, 

Mr.  Httnt        . .  .  •  .  •  . .  .  •     812 


Forster;  Answer,  Mr.  Hunt  . .  • .  . .     813 

Ibeland— Fenian  Pbisonebs  —  Explanation,  Major  Stuart  Knox  ;    Answer, 

Lord  Naas      . .  .  •  •  •  • .  . .     813 

Pbincess  of  Wales — Addbess   of  Congbatulation  to   Heb  Majsstt   {Ths 

Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer)  agreed  to,  Nemine  Contradicente  • .     813 

[FOruaiy  22.]  *  -P^V* 

SoPFLr— Order  for  Committee  read ;  Motion  made,'  and  Qoesfcion  ppopofled, 
*'  That  Mr.  Spedker  do  now  leaye  the  Chair :  ** — 

Nsw  CoiTBte  GF  JusncB — Amendment  proposed, 

To  leare  out  from  the  word  "  That "  to  the  end  of  the  Question,  in'order  to  add  Ibe  words 
"  m  the  opinion  of  this  Honie,  it  is  expedient  that  all  amnfements  respeetiog  the 
building  of  the  New  Courts  of  Jaetioe  ehould  be  efleoted  under  the  sole  reaponsibilit/  of 
Her  Majest/e  GoTemxnent/'— (Afr.  ^end'ticilr,)— instead  thereof     . .  . .      614 

Qoestion  proposed,  ''  That  the  words  proposed  to  be  left  out  stand  part  of 

the  Question :" — After  debate,  Amendment,  bj  leave,  withdrawn, 
Qnestion  again  proposed,  "  That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leare  the  Chair." 

IsniA. — Thb  Mahabajtah  of  Mtsose  —  Questions,  Sir  Henry  Bawlinson, 
Sir  Edward  Colebrooke;  Answer,  Yisooant  Cranboame     •  •  •  •     827 

AnmifisTBATiosr  of  thb  Law — ObservationB,  Sir  Ronndell « Palmer ;  Beply, 
The  Attorney  General : — ^Debate  thereon     . .  •  •  .  •     841 

REDTTCTioir  OF  THE  Qvauficahov  fob  thb  Electitb  FBAKCHisB-^Question, 
Mr.  jyaihj  Griffith ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  . .     886 

Afpboachbs  to  the  HoirsEs  of  FABUAMEirr — Observations,  Mr.  D.Bromley    888 

Paxis  Ezhibixiok  Esitdcatb— Question,  Mr.  Osborne ;  Answer,  Mr.  Bruce        890 

Motion,  by  leare,  withdrawn : — Committee  dsfirred  till  Monday  next. 

Habeas  Corpus  Suspensioxi  {Ireland)  Act  Continuanoe  Bill 

[Bill  36]— 

CimMered  in  Committee  .  •  •  •  •  •  .  •     898 

A  dauae  added: — Bill  reported;  as  amended,  eomidered :  read  the  third 
time,  and  passed. 

Sogar  DuttoB  BUI  [BiU  37]-- 

Coueidm^  in  Committee,  and  reported  •  •  •  •  • .     904 

Metropolia  Gas  KH^  Ordered  (Sir  Stafford  Nartheoie,  Mr,  Seeret<iry  TFalpote,  Lord 

J<Am  Manners) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [BiU  45]  . .  . .      904 

Petit  Juries  drelaad)  BiU— Ordered  (Mr,  SoUoHar  Qeneralfer  Ireland^  Mr,  Attorney 

Qeneralfor  Ireland) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  46]        .  •  •  •      904 

Conrt  of  Chancery  (Ireland)  Bill —  Ordered  (Mr,  Solicitor  General  for  Ireland,  Mr, 

Attorney  General/or  Ireland) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [BiU  47]  . .      904 

Common  Law  Conrts  (Ireland)  BSU—Ordered  (Mr,  Solicitor  General  for  Ireland, 

Mr,  Attorney  General  for  Ireland) ;  presented,  and  read  the  flnt  time  [BiU  48]  . .      904 

Charitable  Donations  and  Bequests  (Ireland)  BiU— Or^f^^-^^;  (Mr.  Sotidtor  General 

for  Ireland,  Mr,  Attorney  General  for  Ireland) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time 

[BOl  49]  ..  ..  ..  ..  ..      905 

Sea  Coast  Fisheries  (Ireland)  Wl-- Ordered  (Mr.  Blake,  Colonel  TotUnUam,  Mr, 

Brady) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [BUI  50]    . .  . .  905 

Counsel  to  the  Secretary  of  State  for  India  Wl— Ordered  (Mr,  Seiwyn,  Mr, 

Stolon,  Mr,  Colertdge) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [BiU  51]    . .  . .      905 


Habeas  Corpua  Suapensipn  (XreXand)  Act  Continuance  Bill- 
Brought  from  the  Commons;  read  1*;  to  \)e printed ;  and  to  be  read  2^  on 
Monday  next ;  and  Standing  Orders  19'os.  37  and  38  to  be  considered  in 
order  to  their  being  dispensed  with,— (2%^  EarlofDerly)  (No.  24.) 


AemcuLTTJXAL  O^Kos^Qnestion,  The  Earl  of  Shaftesbury ;  Answer,  The  Earl 

of  Belmore    . .  . .  . .  . ,  . .     906 

Pbitaxb  BiUiS — GaiTEGHTABns  AKn  CracxTEBiES —  On  Motion  of  The  Earl  of 
Bflmore  Standing  Order  182  amended        • ,  , .  « , 

IFeiruarjf  26.]  Pojfe 

Habeas  Corpus  Suspension  (Ireland)  Act  Continuance  Bill 

(No.  24)— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2*/'— (TAf  JSarl  of  Derby)  . .     908 

After  long  debate,  Motion  a^r&sd  to  :~B111  read  2*  accordingly :  Committee 
negatived ;  Standing  Orders  Nos.  37  and  88  eoneidered  (according  to  Order) 
*  and  diepemed  with : — ^Bill  read  3*  sud  pasted. 

Emplotment  op  Volxtktbebs  in  Civil  Distubbances— Observations,  Lord  St. 

Leonards;  Beply,  Earl  De  Orey  and  Eipon :— Debate  thereon  . .     919 

Masters  and  Operatives  Bill  (No.  3)— 

House  in  Committee  (according  to  Order)        . .  . ,  . .     930 

An  Amendment  moved  {ITie  Lord  Cranworth)  and  agreed  to. 
Title  of  Bill  altered  to  <<  Masters  and  Workmen  Bill." 


SfBOiAL  JuBoss— Questions,  Mr.  Whatman,  Mr.  Owen  Stanley;  Answer,  The 

Solicitor  General  . .  . .  . ,  . .     931 

Sebvia  —  EvA.GfUATioir   07   THE   FoBTBESSEs — Qucstion,  Mr.  Darby  Griffith; 

Answer,  Lord  Stanley  .  •  . .  . .  . ,     932 

Jaillica.  —  CouBTs  Mabtial  on  Ensiov  Cullen  .Ajn>  SuBOEOK  MoBBis— Ques- 
tion, Mr.  Gilpin ;  Answer,  Mr.  Mowbray    . .  . .  , .     933 

Ibelavd — The  Lobd  Mayob's  Bakqitet — Cabbikal  Cullen — Question,  Mr. 

Newdegate ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer    . .  . .     933 

India-^Coolib  Tbade  is  Assam — Question,  Mr.  Einnaird ;  Answer,  Viscount 

Cranboume    . .  . .  • .  '        . .  . .     936 

Navt— The  "Gbeenwich  Sixpence"  —  Question,  Mr.  Trevelyan;  Answer, 

Sir  Stafford  Northcote  ..  ..  ..  ..936 

Pabijamentabt  Refobjc— Repbesentation  of  the  People — 
Order  for  Committee  to  consider  the  Act  2  &  3  Will.  lY.  c.  45,  read. 
Moved,  "That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chair," — (Mr.  Chancellor  of 

the  Excheauer)  . .  . .  . .  . .     937 

After  long  debate,  Motion,  by  leave,  mthdraum ;  Committee  deferred  till 


Crixninal  Lunatics  Bill  [BUI  41]— 

Bill  read  a  second  time,  after  short  debate,  and  committed  for  ITiursday       .  •     993 

Trades  Unions  Bill  [BiU  18]— 

Bill  considered  in  Committee     . .  . .  . .  . .     993 

And  after  some  time  spent  therein,  Bill  reported;  as  amended,  to  be  con* 
sidered  on  Thursday.    [Bill  68.] 

Ibelanb — ^The  Lobd  Matob's  BAnaiTET — Cabdinal    Cullek— Observations, 

Mr.  Newdegate  . .  . .  . .  . .   1001 

BaUway  Construction   FacilitieB   Act  (1864)  Amendment  BOl-- Ordered 

{Mr.  Whalley,Mr,  WhUe)  ..  ..  ..  ..   1001 


H.  R.  H.  The  Fbivcess  of  Wales — The  Queek's  Answer  to  the  Address  of 

Friday  last  reported  . .  • .  . .  •  •  1002 

pubUc  Schools  BiU  (No.  4)— 
After  short  debate,  Honse  in  Committee ;  an  Amendmen  Imade;  the  Report 
thereof  to  be  receired  on  Monday  next,  and  Bill  to  be  printed  as  amended 
(No.  29)        ..  ••  .#  ••  ••  1003 

[Fehmr^  26.]  Pa^fi 

Office  of  Judge  in  the  Admiralty,  Divorce,   and  Probate 
Courts  BiU  (No.  11)— 

M&wd,  *'  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2%"-  [The  Lord  ChaneeUor)  . .  1003 

After  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  2*  aocordiBgly. 

Britiah  North  America  BiU  (No.  9)— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  S\"—{The  Earl  of  Camarvm)  . .  1011 

An  Ajnendment  mwed,  to  leare   oat   (''now")  and  insert   ("this   Day 

Month,")— {Zorrf  CampbeU.) 
After  debate.  Amendment  withdrawn :  Then  the  original  Motion  was  agreed 

to :  Bill  read  3*  accordingly  :  Amendments  made ;  Bill  passed,  and  sent  to 

the  Commons. 


Fabuamentaut  Befobv — Repbesentatiok  of  the  People — Observations,  The 

Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  •.  ..  ••  1021 

Moved,  **  That  this  House  do  now  adjourn," — {Mr.  Gladstone) 

After  short  debate,  Motion  withdrawn. 

1bel4vi>  —  Ekplotment    07    THE    Ieish    Constabulabt  •—  Question,    The 

0'Don<^hiie ;  Answer,  Lord  Naas  . .  . .  . .  1028 

ScoTLAvn — CoLLECTOBS    OF    Taxes— Quostion,    Mr.  E.  Craufurd ;    Answer, 

Mr.  Hunt      . .  . .  . .  . .  . .   1028 

Stobic  S1GFAI.S  OF  THE  BoABD  OF  Tbade — Quostlon,  Colonel  Sykes ;  Answer, 

Sir  Stafford  Northcote  ..  ..  ..  ..  1029 

Ibklutd— Watebfobd  CoimTr  Election— The  12th  Lancers  at  Dunoabyan— 

Question,  Mr.  Serjeant  Barry ;  Answer,  General  Peel       . .  . .   1080 

BiOT  AT  Woltebhahpton — Question,  Mr.  Whalley ;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole     . .   1031 
H.R.H.  The  Pbikcxss  of  Wales— Her  Majesty's  Answer  to  the  Address  reported  1032 

Abjct  (India,  and  the  Colonies) — Moved, 

"Thftt  a  Soleofe  Committee  be  appointed  to  inquire  into  the  dutiee  performed  hj  the  British 
Army  in  India  and  the  Colonies ;  and  also  to  inquire  how  &r  it  might  be  desirable  to 
employ  certain  portions  of  Her  Migesty's  Native  Indian  Army  in  our  Colonial  and  Mili- 
tsiy  Dependencies/' — {Major  Anson)  ..  ..  ..    1032 

Amendment  proposed,  at  the  end  of  the  Question,  to  add  the  words,  "  or  to 

organiEe  a  force  of  Asiatic  Troops  for  general  service  in  suitable  climates,'' 

—(Ifr.  ffBMly.) 
Aft^  long  debate,  Question,   "That  those  words  be  there  added,"  put, 

and  agreed  to  .'—Words  added : — Main  Question,  as  amended,  put,  and 

agreed  to. 
Select  Committee  appointed  :^^LiBt  of  the  Committee  , ,  , .  1064 

Attorneys,  Ac.,  Certiflcate  Duty  Bill— 

Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Denman)  . .  . .  , «   1064 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  to  reduce  the  annual  Duty  upon 

the  Certificates  of   Attorneys  and  Solicitors  and  others,  ordered  {Mr. 

Lenman,  Mr.  Vance,  Sir  John  Ogihy) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time 

[Bill  63.] 

Pactoet  Acts  (EnircAnoirAL  Clauses) — Moved, 

'*  That  in  the  opinion  of  this  House,  it  is  expedient  to  extend  the  Educational  Clauses  of 
the  Factory  Acts  to  children  who  are  employed  in  agriculture/'~(ifr.  Faiwutt)  . .   1066 

After  long  debate.  Motion  withdrawn. 

Hypothec  AboUtlon  (Scotland)  BiU— 
Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Carnegie)  . .  , .  . ,  1<" 

VOL.  CLXXXV.  *  [thibd  sebies.]  [  d '] 

IFehrmrt/  26.]  Page 

HypoUtec  Abolition  (SeaUand)  BiU^coniinvied, 

After  abort  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  for  tbe  abolition  of  tbe  Landlord's 
rigbt  of  Hypothec  in  Scotland,  ordered  {Mr.  Carnegie,  Mr.  Fordyce,  Mr, 
Edward  Craufurd) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  54.] 

Xetropolitan  Improvements  BiU—^'^^^^^  (^v-  Ayrton,  Mr,  Tite) ;  presented,  and 

read  the  first  time    [Bill  65]  ••  ..  ..  ,,   1089 


Swansea  Vale  RaiUoay  Bill  {by  Order) — 
Bill  read  a  second  time,  after  short  debate,  and  committed      . .  , ,  1089 

Ibeljln])— Bishop  Mobiautt — ^Explanation,  Lord  Naas  .•  ,.   1090 

Bbttish  Nobth  America  Bill— Qaestion,  Mr.  Hadftold;  Answer,  Lord  Naas     1090 

Transubstantiatlon,  ftc..  Declaration  Abolition  Bill  [Bill  6]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"— (i9»r  C.  O'LoghUn)      1091 
After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to  : — Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed 
for  Tuesday,  12th  March. 

Offices  and  Oaths  Bill  [BiU  7]— 

Moved,  "That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"~(£^/r  C,  G'LoghUn)        1093 
Amendment  proposed,  to  leave  ont  the  word  "now,"  and  at  the  end  of 

the  Question  to  add  the  words  "upon  this  day  six  months," — (Mr. 

After  long  debate,  Qaestion  put,  "  That  the  word  '  now '  stand  part  of  the 

Question:  " — ^The  House  divided;  Ayes  195,  Noes  93;  Majority  102  : — 

Main   Qaestion,   put,  and  agreed    to : — Bill    read  a  second  nme,  and 

committed  ioT  Thwsdiay,  14th  March. 

Division  List,  Ayes  and  Noes  .  •  . .  ..1128 

Dublin  University  Professorships  Bill  [Bill  10]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time," — (Mr.  Zawson)  . .   1130 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  ^o:— Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed 
for  To-morrotv. 

Execution  of  Deeds  Bill  [Bill  26]— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time," — {Mr.  Goldney)  . .  1133 

After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to  :^Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed 
for  To-morrow, 

Sale  and  Purchase  of  Shares  Bill  [Bill  38]— 

Moved,  '*  That  the  BUI  be  now  read  a  second  time," — (Mir.  Leeman)  . .   1184 

Amendment  proposed,  to  leave  out  the  word  "  now,"  and  at  the  end  of  the 
Qaestion  to  add  the  words  "  upon  this  day  six  months," — {^Mr.  Fildes  :) — 
Question  proposed, ''  That  the  word  '  iiow '  stand  part  of  the  Question  :" 
— After  debate.  Debate  adjourned  till  Tuesday  next. 


Hjrpothec  Amendment  (Scotland)  Bill  (No.  12)— 

Order  of  the  Day  for  the  Second  Reading  read  . .  ..1141 

After  short  debate^  Second  Reading  put  off  till  To-morrow. 


Dogs-— Question,  Sir  Andrew  Agnew;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole    . .  . .  1143 

Paris   Umiyersal   Ezhibttion,  1867 — ^Enolish  Jurors — Question,  Viscount 

Amberley ;  Answer,  Mr.  Corry  . ,  . .  . ,   1143 

Navy — Libtttenaiit  Brand — Question,  Mr.  Osborne  ;  Answer,  Mr.  Buxton    .  •  1143 

India — CoNTRAcrr  Law — Question,  Mr.  Einnaird  ;    Answer,  Viscount  Cran- 

boume  ..  ..  ••  .»  .,  1144 

IFeinuHy  28.]  Pa^e 

Aiinr— Laitd  Tbakspobz — Question,  Captain  Yiyian;  Answer,  Qeneral  Peel       1144 

SayxLAXD — Gamb  Laws — Question,  Mr.  Fordyce;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole        ••  1145 

The  "ToiorADO*' — Question,  Mr.  Hanbury-Tracy ;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley     .,   1145 

BEroRTs  OF  THE  B&iBERT  CoMMissioxEBS — Quostiou,  Captain  Gridley ;  Answer, 

The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  . .  . .  • .   1145 

TsE  Bbibbkt  CoMicissioNS^Question,  Captain  Otway ;    Answer,  The  Chan- 
cellor of  the  Exchequer         . .  .  •  . .  . .   1 146 

IiELiin)— Vabtkt    "Waterworks   Exbakxhent — Question,  Mr.   Fiizwilliam 

Dick;  Answer,  Lord  Naas  . .  . .  1146 

Edttcatiok — Copy  of  Minute  by  the  Lords  of  Her  Majesty's  Most  Honourable 

Privy  Council  presented  [by  Command]  :~I>ebate  thereon  . .   1147 

British  North  America  Bill  {Lords)  [Bill  52]— 

Moted^  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,'' — {Mr,  AdderUy)       . .   1164 
After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed 
for  Monday  next. 

Duty  on  Dogs  Bill  [Bill  36]— 

Bin  considered  in  Committee     . .  . .  . .  . ,   1 196 

And,  after  short  time  spent  therein,  Bill  reported. 

Sugar  Duties  BiU  [BiU  37]— 

Consideration,  as  amended,  deferred  till  Monday  next  •  •  , .   1202 

Paslumentabt  Refobh — Retbksektation  op  the  People — 
Ord^  for  Committee  to  consider  the  Act  2  &  3  Will,  lY.  c.  45,  read,  and, 
after  abort  debate,  discharged  , .  . .  . ,    1203 

Counsel  to  the  Secretary  of  State  for  India  Bill  [Bill  51]— 

Moc^  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"  — {Mr.  Sehvyn)  . .   1203 

Amendment  proposed,  to  leave  out  the  word  "  now/'  and  at  the  end  of  the 

Question  to  add  the  words  "  upon  this  day  six  months," — (ifr.  Serjeant 

GaseUe :) — Question  proposed,  "  That  the  word  '  now '  stand  part  of  the 

After  debate,  Mor>ed,  *'  That  the  Debate  be  now  adjourned," — {Mr,  White:) — 

The  fiouse  dir>ided;  Ayes  34,  Noes  58 ;  Majority  24. 
Question,  "  That  the  word  *  now '  stand  part  of  the  Question,"  put,  and 

agreed  to. 
Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed  for  Monday  next. 

Charity  Funds  and  Estates  Bill— Orefet^d  {Mr.  Richard  Young,  Mr.  William  Edward 

Forster);  presented,  nadnsA  the  trst time  [Bill  fiO]  •.  ..   1210 


The  ComrBBTED  Enfield  Eifle — Question,  Earl  Be  Grey  and  Bipon ;  Answer, 

The  Earl  of  Longford  ..  ..  ..  ..   1211 

MiLiTiBT  AT  ELEcnoNS  Df  Irelans — Motiou  for  Papers — {The  Duke  of  St, 

Albans)  . .  • .  • .  .  •  . ,   1213 

After  short  debate.  Motion  withdrawn. 

Hypothec  Amendment  (Scotland)  Bill  (No.  12)— 

Moned,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2»,"--{25te  Lord  Chancellor)  . .  1222 

After  debate,  on  Question,  agreed  to : — ^Bill  read  2*  accordingly,  and  com* 
mitted  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  Tuesday  next. 


Gas  Airn  Water  Bx^ls— Instruction  to  the  Committee  of  Selection— (Co^o^is^ 

Wilson  Patten)  ..  ..  ,.  ..  1228 

[Mdreh  4.]  Page 

CRDcmAL  LxTK^Tics  BiLL — Order  for  Committee  read— 

MixisTEBiAL  ExPLANATioNB^QaeBtioiii  Mr.  Osborne ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor 
of  the  Excheqaer  . .  . .  . .  . .   1323 

Moved,  "That  this  House  do  now  adjourn,"— (Ifr.  Oiftonw ;)— After 
short  debate,  Motion,  by  leaye,  mtMrawn. 

Committee  deferred  till  Thureday. 

Duty  on  Dogs  Bill  [Bill  36]— 

Bill  cofmdered  B8  waiended       ..  ..  ..  ..  1324 

Further  Consideration  deferred  till  Wednesday, 

Sugar  Duties  Bill  [BiU  37]- 
After  short  debate,  Bill  re'Committed  for  Wednesday  . .  .  •  1326 

Osrster  and  Mussel  Fisheries  Bill  [Bill  61]— 

After  short  debate,  Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed  for  Wednesday   . .   1325 

Counsel  to  the  Secretary  of  State  for  India  Bill  [Bill  51]— 

Moved,  "  That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chair,"— (ifr.  Sekoyn)  . .  1326 

Amendment  proposed, 

To  leaye  out  from  the  word  "  That"  to  the  end  of  the  Question,  in  order  to  add  the 
words  **  this  House  will,  upon  this  day  six  months,  resoWe  itself  into  the  said  Com- 
mittee,"—  {Mr.  Serjeant  (r<ue2e«,)— instead  thereof 

Qaestion  proposed,  "  That  the  words  proposed  to  be  left  out  stand  part  of  the 
Question :  — After  debate.  Amendment  and  Motion,  by  leave,  withdrawn, 


Their  Lordships  met;  and  having  gone  through  the  business  on  the  Paper, 
without  debate,  House  adjourned. 


Abyssinia — Impbisovmsxt  op  Bjotish  Subjects— Question,  Mr.  Darby  Griffith ; 

Answer,  Lord  Stanley  , ,  . .  . .  . .  1336 

M£RS£T  Docks  Ain>  Habboub  Bill — Question,  Mr.  Tollemaohe ;  Answer, 

Sir  Stafford  Northcote  ..  ..  ..  ..1336 

Lancastsb,  Yabmouth,  &c.,  Comcissiovs — Question,  Mr.  Otway  ;  Answer,  The 

Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  ,.  ..  ..1338 

Cask  of  the   "  Tobitado  "—Question,  Mr.  Alderman  Lusk;    Answer,  Lord 

Stanley  ..  ..  ..  ..  ..  1338 

Cakada — IbLTEADiTioir  OF  M.  Lahibande — Question,  Mr.  M'Cullagh  Torrens ; 

Answer,  Mr.  Adderley  . .  . .  . .  . .   1339 

Abjoxtbnment  of  the  House — Moved,  "That  the  House  at  its  rising  do  adjourn 
till  To-morrow  at  Two  o'clock." 

MnrisTEBiAL  ExPLAKATioirs — (Tke  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer :) — ^Long  debate 
thereon  •  •  '        • .  . .  . .  • .  1389 

Public  Bx7siN£8S — Observations  ..  ..  ..  1370 

Motion  agreed  to  :— House  at  rising  to  adjourn  till  To-morrow  at  Two  of  the 


LiiciTED   LiABiLiTT  AcTS — Movcd,  "That  a  Select  Committee  be   appointed 
to  inquire  into  the   operation  of   the  Limited    Liability  Acts," — (Mr, 
Watkin)         ..  ..  ..  ..  ..   1370 

After  debate,  Motion  agreed  to. 

List  of  the  Committee  •  •  •  •  . .   1387 

[March  5.]  Pa^e 

Otaine  Preservation  (Scotland)  Bill— 

Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  M^JLagan)  .  •  .  •  • .  1S88 

After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  to  amend  the  Laws  relating  to 
the  preservation  of  Game  in  Scotland,  ordered  {Mr,  M* Lagan,  Sir  William 
Stirling-Maxwell,  Mr.  Fordyce) ;  jpresented,  and  read  the  first  time  [BiU  65] 

Sale  and  Purchase  of  Shares  Bill  [Bill  38]— 

Order  read,  for  resuming  Adjourned  Debate  on  Question  [27th  February], 
''  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time :  "  — Question  again  proposed : 
— Debate  resumed  • .  • .  . .  • .  1397 

After  debate,  Question  put:  —  The  Souse  divided;  Ayes  86,  Noes  41; 
Majority  45. 

Main  Question  put,  and  agreed  to: — Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed 
for  Friday. 

Execution  of  Deeds  Bill  [Bill  26]— 

Order  for  Committee  read  :-^ifoi;tfe?,  <<That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leare  the 
Chair/'  ..  ..  ..  ..  ..  1416 

Amendment  proposed. 

To  leave  oat  from  the  word  ^<  That "  to  the  end  of  the  Question,  in  order  to  add  the  words 
**  this  Hoase  will,  upon  this  day  six  months,  resoWe  itself  into  the  said  Oommittee/'— 
{Mr.  Attorney  Qeneraly) — ^instead  thereof  ..  ••  ..   1417 

Question  proposed,  "  That  the  words  proposed  to  be  left  out  stand  part  of  the 
Question : '' — After  short  debate,  Amendment  and  Motion,  by  leave,  with- 
^roM^n  .'—Committee  deferred  till  Friday,  15th  March. 

DisTusBAKCEs  IK  Ibeland — Quostiou,  Mr.  Monsell;  Answer,  Lord  Naas        .  •  1418 

Tests  AboUtion  (Oxford)  BiU  [Bill  16]- 

Moved,  '*  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time," — {Mr.  Coleridge)        .  •  1419 
After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  com- 
mitted for  Wednesday,  10th  April. 

Wats     akd     Meaits  —  Eesolution    in    Committee  —  Consolidated    Fund 

(£369,118  6s.  6d.)  ..  ..  ..  ..  1427 

DisTUBBAKCBS  IN  Ireiani)— Quostion,  Earl  Granville;  Answer,  Earl  Derby    • .  1427 
PubUc  Schools  BiU  (No.  29)-. 

Amendment  rt^or^tfi  (according  to  Order)       ..  ..  ..   1428 

After  short  debate,  further  Amendments  made,  and  Bill  to  be  read  3* 

Hjrpothec  Amendment  (Scotland)  Bill  (No.  12)— 

House  in  Committee  (according  to  Order)        . .  , .  . .  1428 

After  short  debate.  Bill  reported  without  Amendment ;  Amendments  made ; 

House  to  be  again  in  Committee  on  Thursday  next,  and  Bill  to  be  printed 

as  amended  (No.  3d.) 

Trades  Unions  Bill  (No.  81)— 

Moved,  "  That  the  BiU  be  now  read  2»,"— (2Tte  Earl  of  Belmore)  . .  1482 

After  debate.  Motion  agreed  to :— Bill  read  2*  accordingly,  and  committed  to 
a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  Thursday  next. 


AnmssiON  of  English  Salt  nrro  F&aitcb — Question,  Mr.  Tollemache;   An- 
swer, Lord  Stanley  . ,  . ,  . .  . .  1443 

Statues  op  the  Plantagenets  at  Eovteyeault— Question,  Mr,  Owen  Stanley ; 
An9wer,  Lord  Stanley  . .  •  •  • ,  . .  1444 

[March  7.]  2V^* 

Santtabt  State  of  HoiTirEAD-^Qaestion,  Hr.  Owen  Stanley;  Answer,  Mr. 

Walpole  ,.  ..  ..  .,  ..   1445 

Physical  Fbopebties  of  Cholebine  —  Questions,  Sir  Jervoise  Jervoise ;  An- 

swersi  Mr.  Walpola,  Mr.  Corry  . .  , ,  , .   1446 

iBELAinH-CoxTRT  OF  AnMiRALTr — Qnestion,  Mr.  Blake;  Answer,  The  Attor- 
ney General  for  Ireland        » :  . .  . .  . .   1447 

Eastesn  Polict  of  Rt7S8ia — Question,  Mr.  Layard;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley       1447 
DisTUBBANCEs  w  Ibeland — Quostlon,  Mr.  Chichester  Fortescue  ;  Answer,  Mr.  • 
Walpole         ..  ..  m       *'  ••  ••  1^^® 

SUPPLY — Aamr  "EBmiAiE&'^consid^ed  in  Committee. 

(In  the  Committee.) 

139,168  Land  Foroes  (iooluding  9,778  all  Ranks,  to  be  emplojed  with  tha  dcp6ta  in  the 
United  Kingdom  of  Great  Britain  and  Irchind  of  Regiments  serving  in  Her  Majesty's 
Indian  Possessions)  • .  . .  .  •  .  •   1 448 

After  long  debate,  Vote  agreed  to : — Eesolution  to  be  reported  To-morrow. 

MetropoUtan  Poor  Bill  [BiU  9]— 

Bill  considered  in  Committee     . .  • .  . .  ..1510 

Bill  reported ;  to  be  printed^  as  amended  [Bill  66] ;  re-committed  for 

XTnilbmiity  Act  Amendment  Bill- 
Resolution  in  Committee — Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Fawcett)  •  •  . .  1510 
Resolution  r^(»r^^t^: — BiU  ordered  {Mr,  Faiocett,  Mr.  Bouven'e);  presented, 
and  read  the  first  time  [Bill  68.] 

"W^ATS  AKD  Means — 

Resolution  [March  6]  reported  and  agreed  to  :  —  Consolidated  Fund 
(£369,118  6s.  ed.)— Bill  ordei-ed  {Mr.  Dodson,  Mr.  Chancellor  of  the 
Fxehequer,  Mr.  Bunt) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first  time  • .  1511 

Chester  Courts  'B01'~'Ordered{Earl  Grosvenor,Mr.  William  Henry  Oladstofte) ;  presented^ 

and  read  the  arst  time  [BiU69]       ..  ..  ..  ..  1511 


DiSTUBBAKCKS  IS  InELAHD—- Quostiou,  The  Marquess  of  Clanricarde  ;    Answer, 

The  Earl  of  Derby  ..  ..  ..  ..  1511 

Ikbubbeciiok  in  Crete — Motion  for  Papers  {The  Duke  of  Argyll)  .  •  1512 

After  long  debate,  Motion  withdrawn. 

Case  of  the   *<  Tobnado'* — Postponement  of  Motion  {Tlie  Marquess  of  Clan- 
ricarde) . .  . .  , .  . .  . .   1544 

The  Militia — Question,  Earl  Cowpor;  Answer,  The  Earl  of  Longford  • .  1545 

Public  Schools  BiU  (No.  29)- 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  3%''— (  The  Earl  of  Derhg)  . .   1546 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to  .-—Bill  read  3*  and  passed,  and  sent  to 
the  Commons. 


Mbxioo— -The    Bokdholdebs— Question,  Mr.  Harvey  Lewis ;  Answer,  Lord 

Stanley  ..  ..  ..  ..  ..   1547 

Refkesentatioh  op  the  People— Lancaster,  Reioate,  Totnes,  Yarmouth — 
Question,  Mr.  Serjeant  Oaselee ;  Answer,  The  Chanoellor  of  the 
Exchequer      •  •  . .  . .  . .  . .   1548 

DisTURBAKCBS    uf    Irelavd— Ths   Fekiav    CoHSPiRAcr  —  Quostion,  Mr.   H. 

Herbert;  Answer,  Id^.  Walpole  ,.  ••  ••  1548 

[Mareh  8.]  Page 

IvszA— EvGUBH  "Bssnaasn  ax  Lib-— Qnesticm,  Lord  William  Hay ;  Answer, 

Sir  James  FergQSSon  ••  ..  ..  .»  1549 

E&17T— SiTBz  Canal — Question,  Sir  Henry  Bawlinson ;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley  1549 

Hbtropoub — OBNAXEirTAL  Watbr  IN  Bbgent's  Fabk — Question,  Mr.  Thomas 

Chambers ;  Answer,  Lord  John  Uanners    • .  • .  .  •  1550 

DisiUBBAircES  m  LsEiAin>— Question,  Major  S.  Enoz ;  Answer,   Mr.  Walpole    1550 

SiTPPLT — Order  for  Committee  read ;  Motion  made,  and  Question  proposed, 
''That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chur :"— - 

SKPLOTHEirr  OF  YoLTTHTEEBs  IN  CiYiL  DiSTUBBANOBS-— Observations,  Mr.  W.  £. 
Forater,  1550  ;  Beply,  Mr.  Walpole : — ^Debate  thereon    •  •  • .  1562 

RspsxsENiAiioN   OP  THE  Peofle—Ministebial  Abrangshents— Quostion, 
Mr.  Ayrton;  Answer,  Tha  ChanpeUor  of  the  Exchequer  •  •  . .  1573 

Ehflotment  of  Yolxtnteebs  in  Civil  DisiiniBANCES— Observations,  Mr. 
Thomas  Hughes ;  Seply,  The  Attorney  Qeaeral :— Short  debate  thereon      1575 

Fabis  TlNivEBaAL  EzHiBmoN,  1867— Seaboh  of  Fassengebb'  Baggage — 
Resolution — Amendment  proposed. 

To  leitve  oat  from  the  word  "  That "  to  the  end  of  the  Qaestion,  in  order  to  add  the 
words  '*  as  the  Customs  ReTenne  is  now  derived  from  an  ezoeedingly  small  number 
of  articles,  the  prices  of  most  of  which  in  London  and  Paris  are  equal,  this  House 
considers  that  no  appreciable  injury  would  be  inflicted  upon  the  income  of  the 
Country  were  the  present  practice  of  the  search  of  the  baggage  of  traTcllers  at 
DoTcr,  Folkestone,  NewhaTen,  and  in  London  suspended  daring  the  period  of  the 
French  Exhibition  of  ISeT/'-KM*.  Beresfard  JScig^tf,)— instead  thereof  •.  1581 

Question  proposed,  ''  That  the  words  proposed  to  be  left  out  stand  part  of 
the  Question :"— After  debate,  Amendment,  by  leave,  ieitMrawn, 

BoTAL  Ibish  Agadskt — Observations,  Mr.  Gregory ;  Beply,  Hr.  Hunt      • .  1596 

The    Stbahs   SEircEKEirr  —  Observations,    Mr.    O'BeiUy;    Beply,    Mr. 

Adderley    ..  ..  ..  ««  ..  1603 

After  debate.  Motion,  ''That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chair," 
witMrmon  .'—Committee  ieforred  till  JUtmin^  neact. 

Metropolitan  Poor  {r^-emmiUed)  BiU  [Bill  66>- 
Bill  tfoiMufarMi  in  Committee^    .,  ••  ••  ,,  1608 

After  debate,  Committee  report  Progress ;  to  sit  again  upon  Mmdaf  next. 



Olerioal  VestmentB  Bill- 
After  short  debate,  a  Bill  for  better  enfbroing  TTniformity  in  the  Clerical 
Yestments  and  Ornaments  to  be  worn  by  Ministers  of  the  United  Church 
of  England  and  Ireland  in  the  Ferformanee  of  Publio  Worship,  preemted 
{The  Earl  of  Shaftesbury)  read  1\    (No.  89.)  . .  . .  1624 

Bepsesentaxion  of  the  People— Befobx  SiAnsnos^-Question,  Earl  Gran- 
ville ;  Answer,  The  Earl  of  Derby  . .  . .  . .  1626 

Bbiubh  Museux— I^ATinAL  HisionT  CojuuionoN — Question,  Lord  Lyveden; 

Answer,  Earl  Stanhope        • .  . .  . .  . .  1626 

Mb.  Fbakoe's  Paxphlei — ^Bssoluiiok — 
Beport  of  the  Select  Conmiittee  on  Mr.  Prance's  Pamphlet  read  •  •  1627 

Besolution  {l%e  Lord  ChaneeOor)  agreed  to. 

Bepbesertaiioh  ov  the  People— Elbciobs  sr  Cans  asd  Bobouqhs— 
Motion  for  PapeiB  (JElir;  JSiM<^  ..  ••  .,  1683 

After  debate.  Motion  agned  to. 

VOXbCLXXXY.  .  [tbjsj)  sESiECk]  [  0  } 



Ths  New  National  Oallebt — Question,  Mr.  JuHan  Goldsmid;  Answer,  Lord 

John  Manners  , .  , .  .  •  . .   1644 

The  Dutch  nr  Sttkatea— Question,  Mr.  White  ;  Answer,  Lord  Stanley        . .  1645 

India — Fahine  in  Obissa — Question,  Mr.  Barnes;  Answer,  Sir  James  Fer- 

gusson  •  •  • .  •  •  •  •  •  •  1645 

The  Befobx  Bill — Question,  Mr.  Darby  Oriffith;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of 

tiie  Exchequer  , .  • .  .  •  .  •  1646 

India — ^The  Straits  Settlement— Question,  Mr.  O'BeUly ;  Answer,  Sir  James 

Fergusson  .,  •       ..  ..  ..  1646 

Abut  Estdcates — Question,  Captain  Vivian ;  Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the 

Exchequer  ..  ..  ..  ••  1647 

Ibxland  —  Martial  Law  —  Question,    The.  ODonoghue;    Answer,    Mr. 

Walpole         ..  .•  ..  ••  .•  1647 

Befresentation  07  THE  People — ^Beforu  Statisiigs— Question,  Mr.  Locke; 

Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  tiie  Exchequer  .  •  .  •   1648 

Movedf  ''That  tiiis  House  do  now  adjourn/' — {Mr,  Eoriman.) 
After  short  debate.  Motion,  by  leave,  withdrawn. 

Valuation  of  Property  BiU  [Bill  12]— 

Motedf  **  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"»(ifr.  Hunt)  . .  1650 

Motion  agreed  to : — ^BiU  read  a  second  time,  and  committed  to  a  Select  Com- 
mittee : — List  of  the  Committee  . .  . .  . .  1673 

Metropolitan  Poor  Bill  [Bill  66]— 

Bill  0Ofwid(9r^  in  Committee  on  re-committal  •.  .,   1673 

And,  after  long  time  spent  therein.  Bill  reported;  as  amended,  to  be  con- 
sidered upon  Wednesday. 

Sugar  Dntiee  BiU  [Bill  37]- 
Bill,  as  amended,  considered  .  •  • .  ,  •  1698 

Bailway  TrafELc  Protection  Bill— 

A  Bill  for  securing  the  Traffic  upon  Railways  from  Interruption  by  the  Cre- 
ditors of  Companies — Presented  {The  Lord  Bcdesdale) ;  and,  after  short 
debate,  read  1*"    {Vo.  43)  . .  . .  . .  1699 

Becovery  of  Certain  Debts  (Scotland)  Bill  (No.  14)— 

Moved,  "  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  2%"— (  The  Lord  Chaneettor)  . .   1699 

After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — BiU  read  2*  accordingly,  and  com- ' 
mitted  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  on  Thursdag  next. 

British  North  America  BiU  (No.  38)— 

Commons  Amendments  considered  .  •  • .  • »  1701 

And,  after  short  debate,  agreed  to. 


Cattle  Pla.oue— Compsitsatiok  fob  Slaughtebed  Cattle— Question, Mr. Bead; 

Answer,  Mr.  Hunt  . .  . .  , .  . .  1702 

Bepbbsentatiok  of  the  People— Befork  Statistics — Question,  Mr.  Lowe; 

Answer,  The  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer  . .  • .  1702 

Staltbbidge  Bailwat  Station— Question,    Mr.    Cheetham;    Answer,   Mr. 

St^hen  Cave     --  . ,    -  . .  . .  . .  1703 

Scotland — Canongate  Chubgh,  Edinbttbgh— -Question,  Mr.  Menoreiff;  An- 
swer, Mr.  Walpole  •  •  •  •  •  •  •  ^  1704 

[JTml  12.]  Pag$ 

BinwAT  CoxpAHiBB  AsBAVosicsNTs  BiiL — QueBtioDi  Ht.  Fildes ;  Answeri  Hr. 
Stq^enCaTO  ..  ..  ••  ..  1704 

Qxfiird  and  Oambridge  TTniveraltles  Education  Bill— 

ICoiion  for  Lea^e  {Mr.  Ewart)  • .  •  •  • .  1704 

After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  to  open  the  bcoiefits  of  ednca* 
tkm  in  the  UniyerBities  of  Oxford  and  Cambridge  to  students,  without 
compelling  them  to  be  Uemben  of  a  College  or  Hall  in  those  TJniyersitieB, 
crd^r^d  (Mr,  Ewart,  Mr.  Neate,  Mr.  PoUari'Urquhart.) 

Fese  PBOTEcnoir — Selsct  Cokuittkb — Moved, 

Tbak  a  Seleet  Committee  be  appointed  *  to  inquire  into  the  existing  legialatiye  pro- 
Tisona  ibr  the  protection  of  Life  and  Property  against  Fires  in  the  United  Kingdom, 
and  as  to  the  best  means  to  be  adopted  for  ascertaining  the  causes  and  prerenting 

the  Frequency  of  Fires/ "H^**- -V'^^Km)  ..  ..  ..   1708 

And  after  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — ^List  of  the  Committee  .  •  1716 

DivoscB  Bills— Select  Committee  on  Diyorce  Bills  nominated  , ,  1715 

Idbel  Bill  [BiU  11]- 

Moved,  *'That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"— (Sir  Cohnan  ffZoghlm)  1716 
After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — Bill  read  a  seoond  time,  and  committed 
to  a  Select  Committee. 

last  of  the  Committee  • .  •  •  •  •  1741 

Indnstadal  Schools  (Ireland)  BiU  [Bill  17]— 

Moved,  ''That  the  BiU  be  now  read  a  seoond  time,"— (2%^  ff  Conor  Don)       1741 
Amendment  proposed,  to  leare  oat  the  word  **  now,"  and  at  the  end  of  the 

Qnestion  to  ^d  the  words  "  upon  this  day  six  months,"— (Mr.  Peel 

Ihweon:) — Question  proposed,  "  That  the  word  '  now '  stand  part  of  the 

After  long  debate,  Amendment,  by  lea^e,  withdrawn : — ^Main  Question  put, 

and  agreed  to: — ^BiU  read  a  seoond  time,  and  committed  for  Tueedaff 

36th  March. 

Criminal  Ijaw  BiU  [Bill  8]— 

BiU  «ofitM0r^  in  Committee     ..  ..  ..  ••  1769 

And,  after  some  time  spent  therein.  Committee  report  Progress. 

Inclosare  BiU — Ordered  (1&*.  Secretary  Walpote,  Mr.  Himt) ;  preeented^  and  read  the       ^ 
first  time  [Bill  72]    ..  ..  ..  ..  .•  1764 

Hypothec  Amendment  (Scotland)  BiU  [h.l.]  (No.  33)— 

Bill  referred  to  a  Select  Committee : — List  of  the  Committee  •  •  •  •  1765 

Trades  Unions  BiU  (No.  31)— 

Order  of  the  Day  for  the  House  to  be  put  into  Committee  on  the  said  BiU 
read  , .  . .  •  •  •  •  • •  1765 

After  short  debate,  House  in  Committee ;  BiU  reported,  without  Amendment ; 
Amendments  made  ;  BiU  re-committed  (No.  44.) 

BaUway  Traflic  Protection  BiU  (No.  43)— 

Mffeed,  "  That  the  BiU  be  now  read  2\''^{The  Lord  Redeedah)  . .  1766 

After  short  debate.  Motion  agreed  to : — BiU  read  2*  accordingly. 

EicBUiiDre  Coiocissioir — Moved, 

*That  an  homhle  Address  be  presented  to  Her  Migesty  for,  Return  of  the  Reoommenda- 
tiona  of  the  Reomiting  Commission  of  I860,  and  the  Steps  taken  thereon/'— (TAe  Earl 
cf  DaXheueie)  ..  r..  ..  ..  ••   1768 

After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to* 



pRiYATE  Bills — ^Board  of  Tjelads  Bxpobis — ^Motion  (Ifr.  8.  Owe)  •  •  180O 

BAinfs  OF  MATBixoirr--Qae6tion,  ITr.  Honk ;  Answer,  The  Attoniey  General    180O 
Pabis  UwivEMAL  EzHiBinoK^Qaestion,  Mr.  Akroyd ;  Answer,  Mr.  Hont         1801 

BBPSESEin:ATioir  of  ScoTLAim— Question,  Colonel  Sykes ;  Answer,  The  Chan- 

cellor  of  the  Exchequer        •  •  . .  •  •  t  •  1801 

lB£LAin) — ^Watebfobd  £LBCnov-*Question,  Mr.  Lawson;  Answer,  The  Attorney 

General  for  Ireland  ..  ..  ••  ••  1802 

Gbeenwich  Hospital — Question,  Sir  Charles  Bright;  Answer,  Mr.  Du  Cane       1808 

Natt— Chain  Cables  kstd  Aitchobs— Question,  Mr.  Laird;   Answer,  Lord 

Henry  Lennox  • .  . .  •  •  .  •  1804 

CoLOKT   OF   Bbitish   Hondxtbas  —  Questiou,  Mr.  Goschen ;    Answer,   Mr. 

Adderley        , .  . .  . .  • .  • .  1806 

BoABD  OF  Tbade  Bbtttbnb— Quostion,  Mr.  Goschen ;  Answer,  Mr.  S.  Cave  1806 

Postage  to  Ikdia — Question,  Mr.  Crawford;  Answer,  Mr.  Hunt  •  •  1807 

Ekgike  Dbiyebs'  Stbikb  —  Question,  Mr.  Thomson  Hankey;   Answer,  Mr. 

Walpole         ».  ..  ..  ••  ••  1807 

Supply— Order  for  Committee  read: — ^Motion  made,  and  Question  proposed, 
"  That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leaye  the  Chair  i^ — 

Ikdia,  China,  and  AusTBALiAir  Mails  —  Question,  Mr.  Childers;  Answer, 
Mr.  Hunt       ..  ..  ..  ..  ..  1807 

Bepbesentatioit  of  the  People — ^Elbotobal  BrATnrncs— ObserTationSy  Mr. 
Locke;  Beply,  Mr.  Oathome  Hardy : — Long  debate  thereon  • «  1809 

Motion,  ''That  Mr.  Speaker  do  now  leave  the  Chair,''  agreed  to. 


SlTBI'LY^eotmdered  in  Committee — ^Nayt  Esidcaibs — 

Statement  of  the  Secretary  of  the  ITavy  {Lord  Henry  Lennox)  in  moying  the 
First  Besolution— 

«  That  67,300  Men  aod  B078  be  employed  ibr  the  Sea  and  Coast  Guard  Serrloei,  ftr  the 
year  ending  on  the  Slat  day  of  March,  1868,  inolading  16,200  Royal  Marines  ••   1824 

After  long  debate.  Committee  report  Progress ;  to  sit  again  To-morrow. 

Oourt  of  Chancery  (Ireland)  Bill  [BiU  47]— 

Movedy  ''That  the  Bill  be  now  read  a  second  time,"— (2%d  Solieiiar  General 
for  Ireland)     . .  . ,  . .  . ,  , .  1858 

^  After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  committed 
for  Thureday  next. 

Metropolitan  Poor  Bill  [Bill  66]— 

Moved,  '*  That  the  Bill  be  now  read  the  third  time,"— (Ifr.  Oathome  Hardy)  1861 
After  debate,  Motion  agreed  to :— Bill  read  the  third  time,  eoidpaeeed, 

I^^on  King  of  Arms  (Scotland)  Bill  [Bill  44]— 

After  short  debate.  Bill  read  a  second  time     . .  • ,  •  •  1867 

Grand  Juries  (Ireland)  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  {Mr.  Peel  Dawson)  • .  . .  • .  1867 
After  short  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill ''  to  amend  the  Laws  relating  to 
the  Presentment  of  Public  Money  by  Grand  Juries  in  Ireland,"  ordered 
(Mr.  Peel  Dawson,  Mr.  Leader,  Sir  C.  ffLogUen,  Mr.  Lanyon) ;  presented, 
and  read  the  first  time    [Bill  78.] 

Bankruptcy  Bill- 
Motion  for  Leave  (Mr.  Attorney  OeneroT)       . ,  ,  •  .  •  1867 
After  long  debate,  Motion  agreed  to : — ^Bill  to  consolidate  and  amend  the  Acta 

relating  to  Bankruptcy  in  England,"  ordered  (Mr.  Attorney  General,  Mr. 

Secretary  Walpole,  Mr,  SoUeitor  General) ;  presented,  and  read  the  first 

time    [Bill  74.] 

[Mardi  14.1  JP^$ 

]Enx»--Seleefc  Oonimtlee  immwmM  .*  1BS7 

Judgment  Delltan  Wl^Order^i  {Mr.  AUomey  Oenerai,  Mr.  Seertkary  Wafpoi$»  Mr. 

SolMdor  OiNiraQ ;  prtfi^nttfd,  and  Nftd  the  finfc  i^  ••  ••1888 

BMdLTttptqr  Acts  Sepeal  Wl'-Ordered  (Mr.  Attcm^  Gutenl^  Mr.  StcfHaary  IfA' 

poi«^  Jfr.  S0Ml0r  GVfieraO ;  pr«imte<^  and  imd  the  i^  ..  1888 


TiTBKBT — ^TusxisH  7oBxiLBB8E8  vx  SsRTiA— Notiee  of  ICotion  (Ecurl  Ruiidtj 

withidiavxi      •  •  •  •  •  •  #  •  1888 

PAHLTAincHTAgT  Bbiobx — Petition  of  Electors  of  Wolyerhampton  prnmUi 

{SaHCHrey)    ..  ..  ..  ••  1890 

Ailer  long  debate,  Petition  ^tiered  to  lie  upon  the  Table. 

Traific  Begrolatlon  (Hetrqpolia)  Bill  (So.  35)— 

J&OMi,  ''  Thai  the  Honee  do  ntoLYe  iteelf  into  a  Committee  on  the  laid 
Kil,"—(Th0  Earl  of  Beknore)  ..  ..  ..  1909 

After  short  debate,  Motion  a^eed  io  :  House  in  Committee ;  Amendments 
made^  Beport  to  be  recelTed  on  TuMday  next    (No.  46.) 


Us.  Chubchvabd's  AppoDmoarr— Question,  ICr.  Taylor ;  Answer,  Ur.  Walpole  1914 

IxiLAHB — Sauiov  Fishbbixs — Question^  Ur.  Blake ;  Answer,  The  Attorney 

General  for  Ireland  ,.  ••  ••  ••  1915 

UiTBOK>LiB— -Htde  Pabx— Quostion,  Ur.  Alderman  Losk ;  Answer,  Lord  John 

Manners         ••  ••  •.  ••  1916 

UzLLWAiii  Ibokwobxs  Coxpant — Question,  Ur.  Weguelin;  Answer,  Sir  John 

Pakington       ••  ••  ..  •.  ••  1916 

SuvFLT — Order  for  Committee  read ;  Uotion  made,  and  Question  proposed, 
"  That  Ur.  Speaker  do  now  leaie  the  Chair : " — 

Lm  SxBmrcBs — Question,  Ur.  iffibbert;  Answer,  Mr.  Walpole  :-*Long 
debate  thereon  . .  •  •  •  •  •  •  1918 

Bbixish  Taoops  nr  Nxw  Zsalakd  —  Obsenrations,  Ur,  Gorst;  Reply, 
Mr.  Adderley  ..  ••  «•  1933 

Smppnre  Rbiubits — Obserrations,  Mr.  Gandlish ;  Reply,  Mr.  B.  Gave        •  •  1984 

lBSLASi>--RAiLWAT8---BE80LUTiov----Amendment  proposed, 

To  lesTtt  <mt  from  the  word  "  Thai  "  to  the  ond  of  the  Qaestion,  in  order  to  add  the  words 
"  it  is  the  opinion  of  this  Honie  that,  with  a  yiew  to  aflbrding  to  IriBh  Railwajrs  the  ftiU 
rdief  contemplated  hj  the  Act  of  last  Senion,  intituled, '  The  RaUwajr  OompuiieB  (Ire- 
land) Tmnyffnrj  AdTances  Act,  1800/  it  is  expedient,  under  exiiting  oirenmstanoei, 
that  the  Lords  Commissioners  of  Her  Majesty's  Treasnrj  should  exeroise  the  powers 
eonfionned  on  them  under  the  fourth  Section,  by  directing  that  the  period  within  which 
temporary  adTances  should  be  made  be  extended  to  the  mMtmym  period  allowed  l» 
the  ABt/'—iMr.  B2a;te,>-instead  thereof  . .  . .  • .   1937 

Question  proposed,  **  That  the  words  proposed  to  be  left  out  stand  part  of 
the  Question :"— After  long  debate.  Amendment  mthdrawn. 

Tloogusb  Uf  TBE  Aairr— Amendment  proposed. 

To  leaTc  out  from  the  word  "  Thaf*  to  the  end  of  the  Question,  in  order  to  add  the 
words  **  this  House,  reserring  for  future  consideration  when  requisite  the  question  of 
the  exigencies  of  a  state  of  war,  is  of  opinion  that  it  is  unnecessary  that  the  punishment 
of  flogging  should  be  awarded  during  the  time  of  peace  to  Soldiers  of  the  Army  or  Corps 
of  Boyal  Marines  serring  on  shore,"--(iff.  Oiri(M^,>— instead  thereof  . ,   1961 

After  long  debate*  Question  put:— The  House  divided;  Ayes  107,  Noes  108; 
Majority  1 :  — ^Words  added :  —  Main  Question,  as  amended,  put  and 
agreed  to. 

SxrmY^£e9ohed,  That  this  House  will  immediately  resolve  itself  into  the 
'"     of  Supply. 

IMareh  15.1  ^V^ 

SUPPLY — ewmd&red  in  Committee^— Asinr  Esidoies— Yotes  on  Aec&wd         1991 

SiTPPLY — Navy  Estdcaixs — 
(28.)  £1,000,000,  Wages,  d^o.,  to  Seamen  and  ICarinee  (on  Account)         . .  *1992 
After  short  debate.  Vote  agreed  to. 

ScTPPLY— CnriL  Skbyice  EsmiATES  {on  Account)-^ 

That  %  mm,  not  exoeeding  £1,924,000,  be  granted  to  Her  Majeity,  on  aoooant,  for  or 
towards  defraying  the  Charge  of  the  fbUowing  Cifil  Servioes,  to  the  dlst  daj  of 
Maroh,  1868         ..  ..  ..  ..  ,,   1992 

[Then  the  sereral  Serrioes  let  forth  at  length.^ 
Tote  agreed  to : — ^Besolntions  to  be  reported  upon  Monday  next. 

Charitable  Donations  and  Bequests  (Ireland)  Bill  [fiill  49]— 

After  short  debate.  Bill  read  a  second  time,  and  eommitted  for  Friday ^  5th 
April  ..  ..  «.  ..  ..     1996 

Xutiny  Bill— Bill  for  panishing  Mating  and  Desertion,  and  for  the  better  pajment  of  the 
Army  and  their  Quarters,  presenUd,  and  read  the  first  time. 


Speech  of  the  Bight  Hon.  C.  P.  Yiujebb  on  the  Second  Beading  of  the 
Metropolitan  Poor  Bill,  Febroary  21  [a  Bmeed  S^torf], 

Speech  of  the  Bight  Hon.  C.  P.  Yilliebs  on  the  Second  Beading  of  the 
ValiMtion  of  Property  Bill,  March  11  [a  Booieed  Beport], 



Thubsday,  Fibbuasy  7. 
The  Ifarqness  of  Exeter,  after  the  Death  of  his  Father. 

Fbzday,  Fjbbbuaby  8. 
The  Lord  Tyrone,  after  the  Death  of  his  Father. 

Fbiday,  Febbvaby  22. 
The  Duke  of  Brandon,  after  the  Death  of  his  Father. 

Thubsday,  Mabch  14. 
The  Lord  Feyersham,  after  the  Death  of  his  Father. 




Hb.   Speaxbb    acquainted    the   House    that,  during  the  Becess,   he  had  issued 

Warrants  for  New  Write— 
For  Brecknock  Borough^  v.  Earl  of  Brecknock,  now  MarqacM  Camden* 


IbriVvyMy  r.  Hon.  Thomas  Geoige  Baring,  now  Lord  Northbiook. 

For  ebumUr  Canad/^  (Western  Diyision),  o.  John  Bolt,  Esq.,  Attorney  Oeneral, 

ForP«i5roi0  CSMdUy,  v.  Geoige  Lort  Phillipsy  Esq.,  deoeased. 

For  GuiUfcrd,  o.  Sir  William  BoTill»  Chief  Jnstioe  of  the  Common  Pleas. 

For  T^fpenay,  v.  John  Blake  Dillon,  Esq.,  deceased. 

For  Bdfoit,  v.  Sir  Hngh  M'Calmont  Caimsy  Jndge  of  the  Court  of  Appeal  in  Chancery. 

For  Weafard  dnrnty^  v.  John  Geoige,  Esq.,  Jndge  of  fhe  Court  of  Queen's  Bench  in 

Fff  W^imfird  Gmiy,  v.  Earl  of  Tyrone,  now  Uarquess  of  Waterford. 
For  Armagh  Ciijf,  r.  Bteame  Ball  ICller,  Esq.,  Judge  of  the  Court  of  Bankruptcy 

and  InsolTency  in  Ireland. 



For  IfbrAampion  CmmUf  (Northern  Diyision),  v.  Lord  Burghley,  now  Uarquess  of 

For  Ss^bft  (Eastern  Division),  «.  Sir  Edward  Clarenoe  Eerrison,  Baronet,  Chiltem 



For  Tha  College  of  fhe  Holy  Trinity,  Dublin,  v.  Bight  Hon.  John  Edward  Walsh, 

ICasttf  of  the  Bolls  for  Ireland. 
For  O^ihoay  Town,  v.  Bight  Hon.  Michael  Uorris,  Attorney  General  for  Irdand. 
For  AndouTf  r.  William  Henry  Humphery,  Esq.,  Chiltem  Hundreds. 

Thubsdat,  Esbxuabt  7. 
ForCori  County,  v.  George  Bichard  Barry,  Esq.,  deoeased. 


for  CoUhosUr,  v.  Tayemer  John  lOller,  Esq.,  Manor  of  Northstead. 

Fbidat,  Fbsbvabt  22. 
lor  York  ComUy  (North  lEUding),  v.  The  Hon.  William  Ernest  Duncombe,  now  Lord 


For  Salop  (Southern   Diyision),  v.  Colonel  The  Hon.  Percy  Egerton  Herbert, 
Treasurer  of  the  Household.  ^ 

THmuDAT,  Masce  7. 
For  Solcp  (Northern  Diyision),  v.  The  Hon«  Adelbert  Wellington  Brownlow  Cust» 
now  Earl  Brownlow. 

Fbidat,  Hasch  8. 
For  Droiiwiek,  v.  Bight  Hon.  Sir  John  Somerset  Fakington,  Baronet,  Secretary  of 

'or  I^ono,  V.  Bight  Hon.  Henry  Thomas  Lowry  Corry,  First  Commissioner  of  the 

For  Dioon  County  (Northern  Diyision),  v.  Bight  Hon.  Sir  StaflEbrd  Henry  Northcote» 

Baroneti  Secretary  of  State. 

For  Bwtim,  v.  Heabuni  Staniknd,  esquirei  Manor  of  Norihstead. 

Tbxdat,  Masch  15. 
For  JBrniin^don  Countif,  v*  The  Hon.  Robert  Montagai  commonly  called  Lord  Bobert 
liontagni  Yice  President  of  the  Committee  of  Council  for  Education. 


TinsDATi  Febbttabt  5« 
(7fifIe^or(^Biohard  Ck^th^  Esq, 
Brecknock  Borough — ^Howel  Gwyn,  Esq. 
Armagh  City-^JohnTsjiQe,  Esq. 
P#fifyfi— Jervoise  Smith,  Esq. 
Bstfoit — Charles  Lanyon,  Esq. 
Pemtroke  CttMiit^y— James  Beyan  Bowen,  Esq. 
CSsmorrM  Couni^^ — ^Hon.  George  Douglas  Pennant. 
Salop  (Northern  Diyision)— Hon.  Adelbert  Wellington  Cust. 
2\pperarff — Hon.  Captain  Charles  White. 
Oloueesier  County  (Western  Diyision)— Sir  John  Bolt. 

WxDinESDAT,  Febbttabt  6. 
Wexford  Oounfy — ^Arihur  EaTanagh,  Esq. 


.^tMfovar— Sir  John  Burgess  EarslakCi  Enight. 

FbzdaTi  FonnrABT  15. 
Northamptm  County  (Northern  Diyision) — Sackville  George  Stopford,  Esq. 


Duklin  Vmvonity — ^Hedges  Eyre  Chatterton,  Esq. 
I  Cohhoiter'-^'BAwBxd  Kent  Earslakei  Esq. 

Thttbsdat,  Fbbbvabt  21. 
i  Oahoay  Ibtm^Bight  Hon.  Uichael  Uorris. 

UoimAT,  Fbbbuabt  25. 
SuffM  (Eastern  Diyision) — ^Frederick  Snowden  Corrance,  Esq. 

UosnAT,  Mabch  4. 
Cork  Cbim^y— Arthur  Hugh  Smith  Barry,  Esq. 

ICOHDAT,  lOlbH  11. 

Salop  (Southern  Diyision)— Hon.  Percy  Egerton  Herbert. 

TubsdaTi  Maboh  12. 
York  County  (North  Biding)— Hon.  Octayius  Duncombe. 

Fbidat»  Haboh  15. 
Salop  (Northern  Diyision) — ^Yiscount  Newport. 
Droiiurich — ^Bight  Hon.  Sir  John  Somerset  Pakington,  Baronet. 



fMLovdof  thaTreMOiy  •       .  Right  Hon.  Earl  of  Dbbbt,  K.G, 

Lofd  CbueeUor Right  Hon.  Lord  GHiucsroBD. 

Praidflnt  of  the  Council      •        .        .  Uig  Grace  the  Dake  of  Buokmoham  and  CsAirDOt»K.O. 

Lord  Privy  Seal Right  Hon.  Earl  of  Maluxsbubt,  G.C.B. 

Secretary  of  State*  Home  DepMiment  •    Right  Hon.  SnircxR  Hobatio  Walpou. 

Secretary  of  State,  Foreign  Department    .        Right  Hon.  Lord  Stamuet. 

Secretary  of  State  for  Colonies     .        ,  •    Right  Hon.  Earl  of  CiaifAaTOV. 

Seeretaiy  of  State  far  War        .        .  Right  Hon.  General  Pibl. 

Secretaiy  of  State  lor  India         .        •  •    Right  Hon.  Viecount  CRAHBOYmn. 

Ghaaedlor  of  the  Exchequer    .        .        .        Right  Hon.  Bbbjaiiim  Disbabli. 

Ffant  Lord  of  the  Admiralty        .        .  •    flight  Hon. Sir  JoRBSoMBBaBYPAXiHOTOir.Bt., G.C.B. 

Preaidait  of  the  Board  of  Trade     .        .         Right  Hon.  Sir  SiArroBD  Hbbbt  Nortrcotb,  Bt.,  C.B. 

Cte^^^^m|^       of  WoAf  and  Public  J  ^^^^  ^^^  Lo^  j^^,  j^,  jj^„„  Mahhbbb. 

CUef  GommissioDer  of  the  Poor  Law  Board .    Right  Hon.  GAiBORim  Habdt. 
Clg^Se«W  to^  the  Lord^  Uentenant  |  ^^^^  ^^^  j^^  j^^^ 

FSeld  Marahal  Qommanding-in-Chief        .        H.R.H.  the  Duke  of  Cahbbedob,  K.G. 

Pestmaato'  General His  Grace  the  Duke  of  Montbosb,  K.T. 

Chancellor  of  the  Dachy  of  Lancaster        .        Right  Hod.  Earl  of  Dbtok. 

^SSf  5^/m  "•'  ""r  ^""^y  Bi«"  Hon.  S.»».  CAT.. 

^'^S^^eSL^o^!""  ?'  ^'^}Ri««.t  Hon.  H.H»T.0H-  Uwnx  Co«ir. 

u^orth,T««n,T.  .  .  .  {^^^%^j^o^'^.s:z>7.:^r^''" 

iVSce  Admiral  Sir  Albxakdib  Milbb,  K.C.B.,  Vice 
Admiral  Sir  Stdnbt  Colpots  Dacbbs,  K.C.B.» 
Rear  Admiral  Gbobgb  Hbnrt  Sbtmoob.  C.B.» 
Captain  Sir  Jorb  Crarlbb  Dalbthpub  Hat,  Bt.» 
and  Chablbb  Du  Cabb,  Esq. 

Joint  Sea«UiiM  of  tho  TroMory .       .        {%°~i,i™|^  ^"''*"°  ''"""  "^  '*'*"""  ^*"" 

Secretary  of  the  Admiralty        •        .  Lord  Hbbrt  Gbobob  Chablbs  Gobdob-Lbbmox. 

Secretary  to  the  Poor  Law  Commissioners    •  Ralph  Abstbutbbb  Eablb,  Esq. 

Under  Secretary,  Home  Department    •        .  Right  Hon.  Earl  of  Bblmobb. 

Under  Secretary,  Foreign  Department      •  Edwaro  Cbbistoprbb  Eobbtob,  Esq. 

Under  Secretary  for  Colonies     .        .        .  Right  Hon.  Chablbs  Bowtbr  Abdbblbt. 

Under  Seeretary  for  War         •        .        •  Right  Hon.  Earl  of  Lobopobd,  K.C.B. 
Under  Secretary  for  IndiA   •        •        .        .Sir  Jambs  Fbbovssoii,  Bt. 

Judge  AdToeate- General  •        .        •        •  Right  Hon.  Johb  Robbbt  Mowbrat. 

Attorney  General Sir  Johb  Rolt,  Knt. 

SoliciUM-  General    .        •        •        .        .  Sir  Jorb  Bobobss  Kabslaxb,  Knt. 


Lord  Adrocate Right  Hon.  Gbobob  Parob. 

Solicitor  General         •       •       .       •        •    Edwabd  Stbathbabb  Gobdob,  Esq, 


Lord  Lientenant Most  Hon.  Marquess  of  Abbbcobb,  K.G.  and  K.St.P. 

Lord  Chanoellor Right  Hon.  Frabcis  Blaoxbvbrb. 

Chief  Seeretary  to  the  Lord  Lientenant    •        Right  Hon.  Lord  Naas. 

Attorney  General Right  Hon.  Miohabl  Mobbis. 

SoUdtor  General      •        •       •       •       •        Hbdobs  Etbb  Chattbbtob,  Esq. 


I^rd  Steward  • His  Grace  the  Duke  of  Mablbobougb. 

Lord  Chamherlain Right  Hon.  Earl  of  BaAnPOBD. 

Master  of  the  Horse        ....  His  Grace  the  Duke  of  Bbaufobt,  K.G. 

Tkeasorer  of  the  Household         .        .        .  Right  Hon.  Lord  Bubohlbt. 

Comptroller  of  the  Household  ,        ,  Right  Hon.  Viscount  RorsroB. 

Vice  Chamherlain  of  the  Household     .        .  Right  Hon.  Lord  Claud  Hamilton. 

Capiam  of  the  Corps  of  Gentlemen  at  Arms  Right  Hon.  Earl  of  Tankbbyillk. 

Captain  of  the  Teomen  of  the  Guard       •  Right  Hon.  Earl  Cadooab. 

Master  of  the  Bnckhoonds  .        •       •        .  Right  Hon.  Lord  Coltillb  of  CnAOSS. 

Chief  Equerry  and  Clerk  Marahal     .        .  Lord  Alpbbd  Hbbbt  Pagbt. 

MistrsM  of  the  Robes         .       .  Her  Grace  the  Duchess  of  Wbiubmob. 

TOL.  CLXXXV.  [thib©  sbbies.]  [  /  ] 

BOLL   or   THE 


In  trs  Second  Session  of  the  Nineteenth  Parlumbnt  op  the 
United  Kingdoh  of  Gbeat  Britain  and  Ireland. 

30o  VICTORIA   1867. 

Msif . — AceorJing  to  the  Usage  of  Parliament,  when  the  Houee  aj^points  a  Select  Com* 
mittee,  the  Lords  appointed  to  serve  upon  it  are  named  in  the  Order  of  their  Bank^ 
beginning  with  the  Highest ;  and  so,  when  the  Eouse  sends  a  Committee  to  a  Confer* 
ence  wiw  the  Commons,  the  Lord  highest  in  Bank  is  called  first,  and  the  rest  go 
forih  in  like  Order:  But  when  the  Whole  Eouse  is  called  over  for  any  Purpose 
within  the  House,  or  for  the  Purpose  of  proceeding  forth  to  Westminster  Hall,  or  upon 
wmjfpvhlic  Solemnity,  the  CaU  begins  invariably  with  the  Junior  Baron. 

His  Royal  Highness  The  Prinoe  of 

His  Royal  Highness  Alfred  Ernest 
Albert  Duke  of  Edinburgh. 

His  Royal  Highness  Oeorge  Frederick 
Alexander  Charles  Ernest  Augustus 
Dake  of  Cumberland  and  Teyiotdale. 
{King  of  Hanover.) 

His  Royal  Highness  Oeorge  William  Fre- 
derick Charles  Dake  of  Cambridge. 

Charles  Thomas  Archbishop  of  Canter- 

Frederick  Lord  Chelmsford,  Lord  Chan- 

William  Archbishop  of  Tork. 

Richard  Cheneyix  Archbishop  of  Dublin. 

Richard  Plantagsnet  Campbell  Duke  of 
Buckingham  and  Chandos,  Lord  Presi- 
dent of  Ae  Council. 

James  Howard  Earl  of  MalmesbttrTi 
Lord  Privy  Seal. 

HxNRT  Dake  of  Norfolk,  Barl  Marshal 
of  England. 

John  Winston  Duke  of  Marlborough, 
Lord  Steward  of  the  Household. 

Edward  Adolphus  Dake  of  Somerset. 

Charles  Henrt  Duke  of  Richmond, 

WiLLLiM  Henrt  Duke  of  Grafton. 

Henrt  Charles  Fitxboy  Duke  of  Beau- 

William  Amelius  Aubrey  de  Verb  Duke 
of  Saint  Albans. 

George  Godolphin  Duke  of  Leeds, 

William  Duke  of  Bedford. 

William  Duke  of  Devonshire. 

John  Winston  Duke  of  Marlborough. 
(/n  another  Place  as  Lord  Steward  of 
the  Household.) 

Charles  Cecu  John  Duke  of  Rutland. 

William  Alexander  Louis  Stephen  Duke 
of  Brandon.  {DtJse  of  Hamilton.) 

WiLUAM  John  Duke  of  Portland. 
William  Droqo  Duke  of  Manchester. 

Henry  Pelham  Alexander  Duke  of 

George  Duke  of  Northumberland, 

Arthur  Richard  Duke  of  Welungton, 

Richard  .Plantagenet  Campbeu.  Duke  of 
Buckingham  and  Chandos.  [In  another 
Place  as  Lord  President  of  the  Council. 

George  Granyillb  William  Duke  of 

Harry  GsoRcgs  Dpke  of  Clbybland, 


John  Morqaess  of  Winchbsteb, 
GsoEOB  Marquess  of  Twxeddalb.  {ElecUd 
for  Scotland.) 

Hekrt  Charles  Keith  Marqaess  of  Lanb- 

DOWNE.  ^ 

JoHH  ViLLiEBS  Stuabt  Marquoss  Towks- 


James  Bbownlow  William  Marquess  of 

John  Alexander  Marquess  of  Bath. 

James  Marquess  of  Abebcobn. 

RicHABD  Marquess  of  Hebtfobd. 

John  Patbick  Marquess  of  Bute. 

WiLUAM  Alletne  Marquess  of  Exeteb. 

Chables  Marquess  of  Northampton. 

John  Chables  Marquess  Camden. 

Henbt  Marquess  of  Anglesey. 

Oeobge  Hobatio  Marquess  of  Cholmonde- 

Henby  Weyspobd  Chables  Plantagenet 
Marquess  of  Hastings. 

Qeoboe  William  Fbedebick  Marquess  of 


Oeobge  Thomas  John  Marauess  of  West* 
MEATH.    {Elected  for  Ireland,) 

Fbedebick  William  John  Marquess  of 

Abchibald  Marquess  of  Ailsa. 
RiCHABO  Marquess  of  Westminsteb. 
Geoboe  Augustus  Constantine  Marquess 


Oblando  Geobge  Chables  Earl  of  Bbad- 
FORD.  {Lord  Chamberlain  of  the 

Henby  John  Earl  of  Shrewsbuby. 

Edwabd  Geoffbey  Earl  of  Debby. 

Fbanois  Theophilus  Henby  Earl  of 

Geobge  Robert  Chables  Earl  of  Pem< 

bboke  and  Montgomeby. 


William  Reginald  Earl  of  Devon. 

Chables  John  Earl  of  Suffolk  and 

Rudolph  William  Basil  Earl  of  Denbigh. 

Fbancis  William  Henry  Earl  of  West- 

George  Augustus  Frbderiok  Albemarle 

Gborgb  Harry  Earl  of  Stamford  and 

Georgb  James  Earl  of  Winohilsea  and 


George   Phiup  Cecil  Arthur  Earl  of 

John  William  Earl  of  Sandwich. 

Arthur  Algernon  Earl  of  Essex. 

James  Thomas  Earl  of  Cardigan. 

William  George  Earl  of  Carlisle. 

Walter  Francis  Earl  of  Doncasteb. 
{Duke  of  BuoeUuch  and  Queensberry,) 

Anthony  Earl  of  Shaftesbury. 

Earl  of  Berkeley. 

Montagu  Earl  of  Abingdon. 

Richabd  Geobge  Earl  of  Scabbbough. 
Geobge  Thomas  Earl  of  Albemable. 

Geobge  William  Earl  of  Coyentby. 

ViCTOB  Albbbt  Geobge  Earl  of  Jebsey. 

William  Hexby  Earl  Poulett. 

Sholto  John  Earl  of  Mobton.  {Elected for 

James  Earl  of  Caithness.  {Elected  for 
Scotland.)  {In  another  Fkce  ae  Lord 

CosPATBicK  Albxandeb  Earl  of  Home. 
{Elected  for  Scotland.) 

Geobge  Earl  of  Haddington,  {Elected  for 

David  Gbaham  Dbummond  Earl  of  Aiblie. 
{Elected  for  Scotland.) 

John  Thobnton  Earl  of  Levbn  and  Mel- 
ville.    {Elected for  Scotland.) 

Dunbab  James  Earl  of  Selkibk.  {Elected 
for  Scotland.) 

Thomas  John  Earl  of  Obkney.  {Elected 
for  Scotland.) 

Sewallis  Edwabd  Earl  Febbebs. 
William  Walteb  Earl  of  Dabtmouth. 
Chables  Earl  of  Tankebville. 
Heneage  Earl  of  Aylesfobd. 
Fbancis  Thomas  De  Gbey  Earl  Cowpeb. 
Philip  Henby  Earl  Stanhope. 

Thomas  Augustus  Wolstenholme  Earl  of 

Geobge  Wiluam  Richabd  Earl  of  Pom* 


James  Earl  Gbaham.  {Duke  of  Montrose.) 
William  Fbedebick  Earl  Waldegrave. 
Bebtbam  Earl  of  Abhbubnham. 

Charles  Wyndbam  Earl  of  Habbington, 
Isaac  Newton  Earl  of  Pobtsmouth. 

Geobge  Guy  Earl  Bbooke  and  Earl  of 

Augustus  Edward  Earl  of  Buckingham- 

C/2  1 


William  Thomas  Sfenceb  Earl  Fitzwil- 


DuDLET  Francis  Earl  of  Guilford. 

Charles  Philip  Earl  of  Hardwicke. 

Henbt  Edward  Earl  of  Ilchester. 

George  John  Earl  De  La  Warr. 

WnxiAH  Earl  of  Radnor. 

John  Poyntz  Earl  Spencer. 

WtLLiAU  Lennox  Earl  Bathurst. 

Arthur  Wills  Blundell  Sandys  Trum- 
bull Windsor  Earl  of  Hillsborough, 
{Marquess  of  Dovmshire,) 

George  William  Frederick  Earl  of 

William  Dayid  Earl  of  Mansfield. 

William  Earl  of  AsERGATENifT. 

John  James  Hugh  Henrt  Earl  Strange. 

(Duke  ofAikol) 
William    Henry  Earl  of   Mount  Edo- 


Hugh  Earl  Fortescue. 

Henry  Howard  Molyneux  Earl  of  Car* 


Henry  Charles  Earl  Cadogan. 

James  Howard  Earl  of  Malmesbury. 
(in  another  Place  as  LwdjBrivy  Seal,) 

Stephen  Earl  of  Moitnt  Cashell.  {Elect- 
ed/or Ireland.) 

Henry  John  Reuben  Earl  of  Portar- 
lington.    {Elected  far  Ireland.) 

Robert  Earl  of  Mayo.  {Elected  for  Ire- 

John  Earl  of  Erne.  {Elected  for  Ire- 

William  Earl  of  Wicklow.  {Elected for 

George  Charles  Earl  of  Lucan.  {Elect- 
ed for  Ireland.) 

Somerset  Richard  Earl  of  Belmore. 
{Elected  fw  Ireland.) 

Francis  Earl  of  Bandon,  {Elected  for 

Francis  Robert  Earl  of  Rosslyn. 
William   Augustus  Frederick  Earl  of 

Arthur  George  Earl  of  Onslow. 

Charles  Earl  of  Romney. 

Henry  Thomas  Earl  of  Chichester* 

Thomas  Earl  of  Wilton. 

Edward  James  Earl  of  Powis. 
Horatio  Earl  Nelson. 

William  Earl  of  Rosss.  {Elected  for 

Sydney  William  Herbert  Earl  Mantess* 
Horatio  Earl  of  Orford. 
Henry  Earl  Grey. 
William  Earl  of  Lonsdale. 
Dudley  Earl  of  Harrowby. 
Henry  Thynnb  Earl  of  Harewood. 
William  Hugh  Earl  of  Minto. 
Alan  Frederick  Earl  Cathcart. 
James  Walter  Earl  of  Yerulam. 

John  William  Spencer  Brownlow  Earl 

Edward  Grantille  Earl  of  Saint  Ger< 


Albert  Edmund  Earl  of  Morley. 

Orlando  George  Charles  Earl  of  BraD' 
FORD.  {In  another  Place  as  Lord 
Chamberlain  of  the  Hotisehold.) 

Frederick  Earl  Beauchamp. 

Richard  Earl  of  Bantry.  {Elected  for 

George  Frederick  Samuel  Earl  De  Grey. 

John  Earl  of  Eldon. 

Richard  William  Penn  Earl  Howe. 

Charles  Sommers  Earl  Sommers. 

John  Edward  Cornwallis  Earl  of  Strad- 

George  Henry  Robert  Charles  William 
Earl  Vane. 

William  Pitt  Earl  Amherst. 

John  Frederick  Vaughan  Earl  Cawdor. 

William  George  Earl  of  Munster. 

Robert  Adam  Philips  Haldane  Earl  of 

Thomas  George  Earl  of  Lichfield. 

George    Frederick    D'Arcy    Earl    of 

Granyille  George  Earl  Granyillb. 
Henry  Earl  of  Effingham. 
Henry  John  Earl  of  Ducie. 

Charles  Maude  Worsley  Earl  of  Tar- 

James  Henry  Robert  Earl  Innes.  {Duke 
of  Boxbtirghe.) 

Thomas  William  Earl  of  Leicester. 

William  Earl  of  Loyelace. 

Thomas  Earl  of  Zetland. 

Charles  George  Earl  of  Gainsborough. 

Edward  Earl  of  Ellenborough. 

Francis  Charles  Granyille  Earl  of 

George  Steyens  Earl  of  Strafford. 


William  John  Earl  of  Cottevhax. 

Hkhbt  Richard  Chaiuubs  Earl  Cowley. 

Abghibald   Williax    Earl   of  WnrroN. 
{Earl  o/Bglwtaun,) 

Wmuji  Earl  of  Dudley. 

JoH5  Earl  Russell. 

JoHir  Earl  of  Eimberley. 

RicHABD  Earl  of  Dabtbky. 

Robert  Viscount  Hbbefobd. 

William  Henry  Viscount  Strathallan. 
(Eheiedfor  Scotland.) 

Hehby  Viscount  Bounobeoke  ajtd   St. 


Stslyn  Viscount  Falmouth. 
George  Viscount  Torrinotok. 

Augustus  Frederick  Viscount  Ledtster. 
{Duke  of  Leimter.) 

Jomr  Robert  Viscount  Sydney. 

Frahcis  Wheler  Viscount  Hood. 

Merttk  Viscount  Powerscourt.  (Elected 
for  Ireland.) 

Thomas  Viscount  De  Vesci.    {Elected  for 

James  Viscount  Lifford.  {Elected  for  Ire- 

Edward  Viscount  Bakoor.    {Elected  for 

£Llyes  Viscount  Doner aile.   {Elected  for 

CoRNWALLis  Viscount  Hawarden.    {Elect' 
ed  for  Ireland.) 

Carnegie    Robert    John   Viscount    St. 

Henry  Viscount  Melyillb. 
WnjJAM  Wells  Viscount  Sidmouth. 

George  Frederick  Viscount  Temfletown. 
{Elected  for  Ireland.) 

George    Viscount    Gordon.      {Earl   of 

Edward  Viscount  Exmouth. 

John  Luke  George  Viscount  Hutchinson. 
{Earl  of  Donoughmore.) 

William  Thomas   Viscount   Clanoabty. 
{Earl  of  Clancarty,) 

Wellington  Henry  Viscount  CoMbermere. 

Charles  John  Viscount  Canterbury. 

Rowland  Viscount  Hill. 

Charles  Stewart  Viscount  Hardinge. 

Hugh  Viscount  Gouoh. 

Stratford  Viscount  Stratford  de  Red- 

Charles  Viscount  Eyersley. 
Charles  Viscount  Haufax. 

Archibald  Campbell  Bishop  of  London. 

Charles  Bishop  of  Durham. 

Charles  Richard  Bishop  of  Winchester. 

Henry  Bishop  of  Exeter. 

CoNNOP  Bishop  of  St.  Dayid's. 

AsHHURST  Turner  Bishop  of  Chichesteb. 

John  Bishop  of  Lichfield. 

Samuel  Bishop  of  Oxford. 

Thomas  Vowler  Bishop  of  St.  Asafh. 

James  Prince  Bishop  of  Manchester. 

Renn  Dickson  Bishop  of  Hereford. 

Alfred  Bishop  of  Llandaff. 

John  Bishop  of  Lincoln. 

Walter  Kerr  Bishop  of  Salisbury. 

Robert  John  Bishop  of  Bath  and  Wells. 
{In  another  Place  as  Lord  Auckland,) 

Robert  Bishop  of  Ripon. 

John  Thomas  Bishop  of  Norwich. 

James  Colquhoun  Bishop  of  Bangor. 

Joseph  Cotton  Bishop  of  Rochester. 

Samuel  Bishop  of  Carusle. 

Henry  Bishop  of  Worcester. 

Charles  John  Bishop  of  Gloucester  and 

Edward  Harold  Bishop  of  Ely. 

Francis  Bishop  of  Peterborough. 

Robert  Bishop  of  Down,  ConnoRi  and 

James  Thomas  Bishop  of  Ossory,  Ferns, 
AND  Leighlin. 

John  Bishop  of  Cork,  Cloyne,  and  Ross. 

William  Lennox  Lascelles  Lord  De  Ros. 

Jacob  Henry  Delayal  Lord  Hastings. 

George  Edward  Lord  Audley. 

Alberic  Lord  Willoughby  de  Eresby. 

Thomas  Crosby  WauAM  Lord  Dacre. 

Charles  Henry  Rolle  Lord  Clinton. 

Thomas  Lord  Camoys. 

Henry  Lord  Beaumont. 

Charles  Lord  Stourton. 

Henry  William  Lord  Berners. 

Henry  Lord  Willoughby  de  Broke. 

Sackyille  George  Lord  Conyers. 

George  Lord  Vaux  of  Harrowden. 

Ralph  Gordon  Lord  Wentworth. 

Edward    Adolphus     Ferdinand     Lord 


St.  Andrew  Beauohahf  Lord  St.  Joh5 
OF  Bletso. 

CflARLES  AuousTus   Lord    Howard    ds 

WniLiAH  Bernard  Lord  Petre. 

Frederick  Benjamin  Lord  Sate  and  Sele. 

John  Francis  Lord  Abundell  of  War- 


John  Stuart  Lord  Clifton.     {Earl  of 

Joseph  Thaddeus  Lord  Dormer. 
George  Henry  Lord  Teynham. 
Henrt  Valentine  Lord  Stafford. 
Georoe  Anson  Lord  Byron. 
Charles  Hugh  Lord  Cufford  of  Chud« 


Alexander  Lord  Saltoun.    {Elected  for 

Charles  Lord  Blantyrb.      {Elected for 

Charles  John  Lord  Colville  op  Culross. 

{Elected  for  Scotland.) 
John  Lord  Rollo.  {Elected  for  Scotland.) 
Henry  Francis  Lord  Polwarth.  {Elected 

for  Scotland.) 
Richard  Edmund  Saint  Lawrence  Lord 

Boyle.    {Earl  of  Cork  and  Orrery.) 

George  Lord  Hay.     {Earl  of  Kinnoul) 

Henry  Lord  Middleton. 

William  John  Lord  Monson. 

John  George  Brabazon  Lord  Ponsonby. 
{Earl  of  Besthorough.) 

George  John  Lord  Sondes. 

Alfred  Nathaniel  Holden  Lord  Scars- 
George  Ites  Lord  Boston. 

George  James  Lord  Lovel  and  Holland. 
{Earl  of  Egmont.) 

Augustus  Henry  Lord  Vernon. 

Edward  St.  Vincent  Lord  Digby. 

George  Douglas  Lord  Sundridgs.  {Duke 

of  Argyll) 
Edward  William  Lord  Hawke. 
Thomas  Henry  Lord  Foley. 
George  Ricb  Lord  Dinetor. 
Thomas  Lord  Walsingham. 
WiLUAM  Lord  Bagot. 
Charles  Lord  Southampton. 
Fletcher  Lord  Grantley. 

George  Bridges  Harley  Dennett  Lord 

WiLUAM  Lord  Berwick. 

James  Henry  Legge  Lord  Sherborne* 

John  Henry  Db  La  Poer  Lord  Tyrone. 
{Marquess  of  Waterford.) 

Richard  Lord  Carleton.  {Earl  of  Shan- 

Charles  Lord  Suffield. 

Guy  Lord  Dorchester. 

Lloyd  Lord  Kenyon. 

Charles  Cornwalus  Lord  Braybrooke. 

George  Hamilton  Lord  Fisherwick.  {Mar- 

qtiess  of  Donegal.) 
Henry  Hall  Lord  Gage.  ( Viscount  Oage.) 

Edward  Thomas  Lord  Thurlow. 

Robert  John  Lord  Auckland.  {In  ano' 
ther  Place  as  Bishop  of  Bath  and 

George  William  Lord  Lyttelton. 

George  Lord  Mendip.  ( Viscount  Clifden.) 

John  Lord  Stuart  of  Castle  Stuart, 
{Earl  of  Moray.) 

Randolph  Lord  Stewart  of  Garlies. 
{Earl  of  Oalhway.) 

James  George  Henry  Lord  Saltersford. 
{Earl  of  Courtovcn.) 

William  John  Lord  Brodrick.  ( Viscount 

Frederick  Lord  Calthorpe. 
Robert  John  Lord  Carrington. 
William  Henry  Lord  Bolton. 
George  Lord  Northwick. 
Thomas  Lyttleton  Lord  Lilford. 
Thomas  Lord  Ribblesdale. 
Edward    Lord  Dunsany.      {Elected  for 

Lucius    Lord    Inchiquin.     {Elected  for 


CadwalladerDavis  Lord  BlAynst.  {Elect* 
edfor  Ireland.) 

Henry  Lord  Farnham.  {Elected  for  Ire- 

John  Cavendish  Lord  Kilmaine.  {Elected 
for  Ireland.) 

Robert  Lord  Clonbrock.  {Elected  for 

Edward  Lord  Crofton.  {Elected for  Ire- 

Eyre  Lord  Clarina.    {Elected  for  Ire- 

Henry  Francis  Seymour  Lord  Moore. 

{Marquess  of  Drogheda,) 



JoHV  Hekrt  WsuNOTOir  Gbahax  Lord 
L0FTU8.  {Mmn^ptess  of  Ely.) 

Gbastulb  Lbtbson  Lord  Cartbfobt. 
[Earl  of  Carysfori.) 

GsoBox  Ealfh  Lord  Abbbcbombt. 

Jobs  Thomas  Lord  Redesdalb. 

HnrKT  Pbteb  Lord  Ritebs. 

Augustus  Fbedbbick  Arthub  Lord  San- 

G20B6E  Augustus  Fredebick  Charles 
Lord  Sheffield.    (Earl  of  Sheffield.) 

Thoxas  Amebigus  Lord  Ebskine. 

GsoBGE  JoHX  Lord  MoKT  Eagle.  {Mar- 
guess  of  8ligo,) 

George  Abthub  Hastdtgs  Lord  Gbahard. 
{Earl  of  Oranard.) 

Hu9[6erford  Lord  Crewe. 

Alae  Lbgge  Lord  Gardner. 

John  Thomas  Lord  Manners. 

John  Alexander  Lord  Hopetoun.  {Earl 
of  Hopetoun.) 

Frederick  William  Robert  Lord  Stewart 
of  Stewart's  Court.  {Marquess  of 

Richard  Lord  Castlemaine.  {Elected  for 

Charles  Lord  Meldrum.  {Marquess  of 

James  Lord  Ross.     {Earl  of  Glasgow.) 

WiLLLiM  Willouohbt  Lord  Grinstead. 
{Earl  of  Enniskillen,) 

Whjjam  Hale  John  Charles  Lord  Fox- 
FORD.     {Earl  of  Limerick,) 

Francis  George  Lord  Churchill. 

George  Francis  Robert  Lord  Harris. 

Charles  Lord  Colchester. 

Whjjam  ScHOMBSRa  Robert  Lord  Eer. 
{Marquess  of  Lothian*) 

Francis  Nathaniel  Lord  Minster.  {Mar- 
qness  Conyngham.) 

James  Edward  William  Theobald  Lord 
Ormonde.    {Marquess  of  Ormonde.) 

Francis  LordWEMTSs.  {Earl  of  Wemyss.) 

Robert  Lord  Clanbbassill.  {Earl  of 

James  Lord  Kingston.  {Earl  of  King- 

William  Ltgon  Lord  Silchbsteb.  {Earl 
of  Longford.) 

CiOTWORTHT  John  Eyre  Lord  Oriel. 
( Viscount  Massereene.) 

Hehry  Thomas  Lord  Raybnswobth, 

Hugh  Lord  Delamebe. 

John  Geobge  Weld  Lord  Fobestzr. 

John  James  Lord  Rayleigh. 

RoBEBT  Fbancis  Lord  Giffobd. 

Pebcy  Ellen  Fbederick  Wqjjam   Lord 
P^NSHUBSt.    ( Viscount  Strangford.) 

UucK  John  Lord  Somebhill.    {Marquess 
of  Clanriearde.) 

James  Lord  Wioan.  {Earl  of  Crawford 
and  Bdlcarres.) 

Thomas  Gbanyille  Henry  Stuart  Lord 
Ranfurly.    {Earl  of  Banfurly.) 

George  Lord  De  Tabley. 

Edward   Montague    Stuabt   Granyolx 
Lord  Wharncliffe. 

William  Lord  Feyersham. 

John  Henry  Lord  Tenterden. 

John  Lord  Plunket. 

William  Henby  Ashe  Lord  Heytesbuby. 

Abchibald  John  Lord  Rosebery.     {Earl 
of  Bosebery.) 

Richard  Lord  Clanwiluam.     {Earl  of 
Clanwilliam.)  * 

Edward  Lord  Skelmersdale. 
William  Samuel  Lord  Wynford. 
Henry  Lord  Brougham  and  Vaux. 

William  Henry  Lord  Ejlmarnocx.    {Earl 

Arthur  James  Lord  Fingall.    {Earl  qf 

William  Phiup  Lord  Sefton.    {Earl  of 

William  Sydney  Lord  Clements.     {Earl 
of  Leitrim.) 

George  Wiluam  Fox  Lord  Rossis.  {Lord 

Thomas  Lord  Eenlis.  {Marquess  of  Head- 

William    Lord    Chaworth.      {Earl    of 

Charles  Adolfhus  Lord  Dunmore,  {Earl 
of  Dunmore.) 

Robert    Montgomerie   Lord  Hamilton. 
{Lord  Belhacen  and  Stenton,) 

John  Hobabt  Lord  Howden. 

Fox  Lord  Panmube.  {Earl  of  DaXhousie.) 

Augustus  Fbedebick  Geobge  Wabwxox 


Edwabd  Mostyn  Lord  Mostyn. 
Henby  Spencer  Lord  Temflemore. 
Edward  Lord  Cloncurry. 
John  St.  Vingekt  Lord  Ds  Saumarsz. 


Lucius  Bentikok  Lord  Hunsdon.     ( Fts- 

eounl  FcUkland.) 
Thomas  Lord  Denmak. 
William  Frederick  Lord  Abinger. 
Philip  Lord  De  L'Isle  and  Dudley. 
Francis  Lord  Ashburton. 
Edward  Richard  Lord  Hatherton. 

Archibald     Brabazon    Sparrow    Lord 
WoRLiNGHAM.     {Earl  of  Oosford,) 

William  Frederick  Lord  Stratheden. 

Edward  Berkeley  Lord  Portman. 

Thomas  Alexander  Lord  Loyat. 

William  Bateman  Lord  Bateman. 

James     Molyneux     Lord     Charlemont. 
{Earl  of  (Jharlemont) 

Francis  Alexander  Lord  Eintore.  {Earl 
of  KitUore,) 

George  Ponsonby  Lord  Lismore.    {VU- 
count  Liimore,) 

Henry  Cairns  Lord  Rossmore. 

Robert  Shapland  Lord  Carew. 

Charles  Frederick  Ashley  Cooper  Lord 
De  Mauley. 

John  Lord  Wrottesley. 

SuDELEY  Charles  George  Tracy  Lord 

Frederick  Henry  Paul  Lord  Methuen. 

Edward  John  Lord  Stanley  of  Alderley. 

Henry  Lord  Stuart  de  Decies. 

William  Henry  Lord  Leigh. 

Beilby  Richard  Lord  Wenlock. 

Charles  Lord  Lurgan. 

Ralph  Lord  Dunfermline. 

Thomas  Spring  Lord  Monteagle  of  Bran- 

James  Lord  Seaton. 

Edward  Arthur  Wellington  Lord  Eeane. 
John  Lord  Oxenfoord.     {Earl  of  Stair.) 
Charles  Crespigny  Lord  Yitlan. 
John  Lord  Congleton. 

Denis  St.  George  Lord  Dunsandlb  and 
Clanconal.   {Elected for  Ireland.) 

Victor  Alexander  Lord  Elgin.     {Earl 
of  Elgin  and  Kincardine.) 

Frederick    Temple    Lord   Clandeboye, 
{Lord  Dufferin  and  Clanehoye.) 

William  Henry  Forester  Lord  Londes- 

Samuel  Jones  Lord  Oyerstone. 

Charles  Robert  Claude  Lord  Truro. 

Robert  Monsey  Lord  CiuamoRTH* 

John  Cam  Lord  Brouohton. 
Charles  Lord  De  Freyne. 
EdwardBurtenshaw  Lord  Saint  Leonards. 
Richard  Henry  Frrz«RoY  Lord  Raglan. 
Gilbert  John  Lord  Ateland. 

Thomas  Lord  Eenmare.    {Earl  of  Kev^ 

Richard  Bickerton  Pemell  Lord  Lyoh8« 
James  Lord  Wensleydale. 
Edward  Lord  Belper. 
James  Lord  Talbot  de  Malahide. 
Robert  Lord  Ebury. 
James  Lord  Skene.    {Earl  Fife.) 
William  George  Lord  Chesham. 

Frederic  Lord  Chelmsford.  {In  anoiker 
Place  as  Lord  Chancellor.) 

John  Lord  Churston. 

John  Chart^s  Lord  Strathspey.  {Earl 
of  Seafield.) 

Thomas  Lord  Kingsdown. 

George  Lord  Leconfield. 

WiLUAM  Tatton  Lord  Egbrton. 

Charles  Morgan  Robinson  Lord  Tredb- 


Robert  Vernon  Lord  Lyteden. 

Benjamin  Lord  Llanoter. 

Henry  Lord  Taunton. 

Richard  Lord  Westbury. 

Maurice  Frederick  Fitzhardinge  Lord 


Henry  Lord  Annaly. 

Richard  Monckton  Lord  Houghton. 

John  Lord  Romilly. 

Thomas  George  Lord  Northbrook. 

James  Lord  Barrogill.  {Earl  of  Caitk' 
ness.)  {In  another  Place  ae  Earl  of 
Caitkneis,  elected  for  Scotland.) 

Thomas  Lord  Clermont. 

William  Meredyth  Lord  Merbdyth. 
{Lord  Athlumney.) 

Edwin  Richard  Windham  Lord  Eenry. 
{Earl  of  Dunraven  and  Mount'Earl.) 

Charles  Stanley  Lord  Monck.  ( Fucount 

John  Lord  Hartismere.  {Lord  Benniker.) 
Edward  George   Earle    Lyiton    Lord 

William  George  Hylton  Lord  Hyltok, 

Hugh  Henry  Lord  Strathnairn. 

Edward  Gordon  Lord  Penrhyn. 

GusTAYUs  Frederiok  Lord  BaAMOEPEtSf 
( ViiGOuni  Boyne.) 




nr  THE  IfiysTEBNTJB  Parliament  op  the  United  Kihodom  of  Great  Britain 
AND  Ireland  :  Amended  to  thb  OPENma  op  thb  Second  Session  on  the 
5th  Day  op  Pebrfabt,  1867. 

Biehard  Thomas  Gilpin, 
Fnada     Cbarles    Hastinffs 


Samuel  Whltbread, 
William  Sloart. 

Robert  Lojd-Lindsaj, 
Riehard  Benjoo, 
Sir  Charles  Russell,  bt. 

Hon.  Charles  Hagh  Lindsaj. 

Sir   Francis    Henry    Gold- 

smid,  bl. 
George  John  Shaw  Lefevre. 

Sir     Charles      Wentvrorth 
DHke,  bt. 

Charles  Edwards, 
Roger  Ejkjn. 

Caledon  George  Da  Pre, 
Rt  hon.  Benjamin  Disraeli, 
Robert  Bateson  Hanrej. 

Samael  George  Smith, 
Nathaniel  Mayer  de  Roths- 

Sir  Harry  Vemey,  bt., 
John  Gellibrand  Hubbard. 

Thomas  Peers  Williams, 
Brownlow  William  Knox. 

John  Remington  MUls, 
Hon.  Chftrlea  Robert  Oar- 


Hon.  (George  John  Manners) 

Lord  G.  J.  Manners, 
Hon.  Charles  Philip  (Yorke) 

Yiseoont  Royston, 
Richard  Young. 

Francis  Sharp  Powell, 
John  Eldon  Gorst. 

Rt.  hon.   Spencer  Horatio 

Charles  Jasper  Selwyn. 


{Northern  Diviston,) 
Hon.  Wilbraham  Egerton, 
George  Cornwall  Legh. 

(Southern  Dttfision.) 

Sir  Philip  de  Malpas  Grey 

Egerton,  bt., 
John  Tollemache. 

John  Laird. 

Hon.  Hugh   Lupus  (Gros* 

Tenor)  Earl  Grosyenor, 
William  Henry  Gladstone. 

Edward  William  Watkin, 
John  Benjamin  Smith. 

John  Brocklehurst, 


{Eastern  Division.) 

Thomas  James  Agar  Ro- 

Nicholas  Kendall. 

( Western  DiviKon,) 
Richard  Darey, 
John  Saint  Aubyn. 

Hon.  John  Craneh  Walker 

Frederick  Martin  Williams. 

Hon.  Edward  Frederick  Le« 

James  Wyld. 

William  Balliol  Brett. 
Alexander  Henry  Campbell. 

Sir  Arthur  William  BuUer, 
Samuel  Gumey, 
Jervoise  Smith. 

Henry  Paull. 


{Eastern  DimstM.) 
Hon.    Charles    Wentworth 

George  Howard, 
William  Marshall. 

( Western  Division.) 
Henry  Lowther, 
Hon.  Percy  Soawen  Wynd- 

William  Nicholson  Hodgson, 
Edmund  Potter. 

John  Steel, 

Rt.  hon.  Richard  Southwell 
(Bourke)  Lord  Naas. 
George  Cayendish  Bentinck 

{Northern  Division,) 
Hon.  (George  Henry  Cayen* 
dish)  Lord  G.  H.  Cayen- 
William  Jackson. 

List  of 

Derby  Coijntt— ^on<. 

{Sowthem  Divman.) 
Thomas  William  Eyans, 
Charles  Robert  Colvile, 

William  Thomas  Cox, 
Michael  Thomas  Bass. 


(Northern  Division.) 
Sir  Stafford  Henry  North- 
cote,  bt.» 

Thomas  Dyke  AclAnd. 
{Southern  Division.) 
Sir  Lawrence  Palk,  bt., 
Samuel    Trehawko    Keke- 


Robert  Jardino. 

Sir  George  Stuclcy  Stuclej, 

Thomas  Cave. 

John  Hardy. 

Lord  Eliot, 
Montagu  Chambers. 
Hon.  (Edward  Baldwin  Cour- 

tenay)  Lord  Courtenay, 
John  Duke  Coleridge. 

Alexander     Dundas     Ross 
Wishart  Baillie-Cochrane, 
Julian  Goldsmid. 

Sir  Robert  Porrett  CoUieri 

Walter  Morrison. 

Arthur  John  Edward  Russell, 
Joseph  D*Aguilar  Samuda. 

John  Walrond'Walrond, 
Hon.  George  Denman. 

John  Pender, 
Alfred  Seymour. 


Hon.  William  Henry  Berke- 
ley Portman, 

Henry  Gerard  Sturt, 

John  Floyer. 

Thomas  Alexander  Mitchell, 
£irkman  Daniel  Hodgson. 

Charles  Napier  Sturt, 
Richard  Brinsley  Sheridan. 

{COMMONS,  1867} 

John  Wright  Treeby. 

Henry  Danby  Seymour, 
Charles  Waring. 


George  Grenfell  Glyn. 


John  Hales  Montagu   Cal- 



Robert  Brooks, 

Henry  Gillett  Gridloy. 


(Northern  Division.) 
Sir  Hed worth   Williamson, 

Robert  Duncombe  Shafto. 

( Southern  Division.) 
Joseph  Whitwell  Pease, 
Charles  Frevillo  Surtees. 

John  Henderson, 
Rt.  hon.  John  Robert  Mow- 

Rt.  hon.  Sir  William  Hutt. 

Robert  Ingham. 

James  Hartley, 
John  Candlish. 


(Northern  Division.) 
Sir  Thomas  Burch  Weston, 

Charles  Du  Cane. 

(Southern  Division,) 

Henry  John  Selwin, 

Hon.  (Eustace  Henry  Brown- 
low  Gascoygne-Cecil)  Lord 
E.  H.  B.  G.  Cecil. 

John  Gurdon  Rebow, 
Tayerner  John  Miller. 

Henry  Jervis  White-Jervis, 
John  Eelk. 

George     Montagu    Warren 

Ralph  Anstruther  Earle. 


(Eastern  Division. ) 
Robert  Sfttyner  Holford, 
Sir  Michael  Edward  Hicka- 
Beachf  bt. 

Gloucbstbb  Couhtt — eont. 

( Western  Division,) 
Robert  Nigel  Fitzhardinge 

Sir  John  Rolt,  knt. 

Charles  Schreiber. 

Allen  Alexander  Bathurst, 
Hon.  Ralph  Heneage  But- 

William  Philip  Price, 
Charles  James  Monck. 

Rt.  hon.  Edward  Horsman, 
George  Poulett  Scrope. 

John  Reginald  Yorke, 
Sir  Edmund  Anthony  Har- 
ley  Lechmere,  bt. 

James  King  King, 
Sir  Joseph  Russell  Bailey^ 

Michael  Biddulph. 

Richard  Baggally, 
George  Cli?e. 

Arthur  Walsh, 
Richard  Arkwright. 

Hon.  Henry  Frederick  Cow- 

Henry  Edward  Surtees, 
Abel  Smith. 

Rt.  hon.   William    Francis 

Robert  Dimsdale. 

Edward  Fellowes, 
Hon.     (Robert^  Montagu) 
Lord  R.  Montagu. 
Thomas  Baring, 
Rt.  hon.  Jonathan  PeeL 


(Eastern  Division.) 

Sir  Brook  William  BridgeSf 

Sir   Edward    Cholmeley 
Bering,  bt. 

<  Western  Division,) 
Hon.  (William  Archer)  Vis« 

oount  Holmesdale, 
WUliam  Hart  Dyke. 


Hennr    Alexander    Butler- 

John  Walter  Huddleston. 

Arthur  John  Otwaj. 

David  Salomona, 
Sir  Charles  Tiiston  Bright, 

Wnfiam  Lee, 
James  Whatman. 

Philip  Wjkeham  Martin, 
John  Alexander  Kinglake. 


(iVbpt&ent  I>«nnoii.) 
John  Wilson  Patten, 
Bt.  bon.   Spencer  Compton 

(Cayendish)  Ifarqness  of 


{SmOktm  DioisioH,) 
Hon.  Algernon  Fulke  Eger- 

Charles  Tarner, 
Bt.   Hon.    William    Ewart 


Edward  Matthew  Fen  wick, 
Heorj  William  Schneider. 

Bt.   hon.    Thomas    Milner 

WiOiam  Henrj  Hornbj, 
Joseph  Feilden. 

William  Gray, 
Thomas  Barnes. 
Robert  Needham  Philips. 

Richard  Fort. 

Thomas  Berry  Horsfall, 
Samnel  Robert  Grares. 

Thomas  Basley, 
Edward  James. 

John  Tomlinson  Hibbert, 
Jdin  Piatt. 

Sir  Thomas   George   Hes- 

keth,  bt., 
Hon.     Frederick      Arthur 

{COMMONS  1867} 

Thomas  Bajley  Potter. 

John  Cheetham. 

GUbert  Greenall. 

Henry  Woods, 
Nathaniel  Eokorsley. 


{Northern  DUnaion.) 
Rt.  hon.  (John  James  Robert 
Manners)  Lord  J.  J.  R. 
Edward  Bourchicr  Hartopp. 

(SmUhaii  Dimiifm.) 
Charles  William  Packe, 
Hon.  George  Augastus  Fre- 
derick   Louis     (Carson* 
Howe)  Yisconnt  Carson, 

John  Dove  Harris, 
Petor  Alfred  Tajlor. 


James  Banks  Stanhope, 
Sir  Montague  John  Cholme- 
ley,  bt. 

{PartM  ofKetteven  and  Holland.) 
Rt.   hon.   Sir    John    Trol- 

lope,  bt., 
George  Hussey  Packe. 

Charles  Seely, 
Edward  Heneage. 

John  Wingfieid  Malcolm, 
Meaburn  Staniland. 

John  Henry  Tborold, 
William  Earle  Welby. 

John  Fildes. 

Hon.  (Robert   Talbot  Gas- 

coyne  -  Cecil)      Yiscouot 

Sir  John  Charles  Dalrym-. 

pie  Hay,  bt. 

Robert  Culling  Hanbury, 
Hon.  George  Henry  Charles 

(Byng)  Viscount  Eufield. 
William  Torrens  M'Cnllagh 

Andrew  Losk. 


Rt.  hon.   George  Joaohim 

Robert  Wygram  Crawford^ 
William  Lawrence, 
Baron    Lionel  Nathan  De 


John  Harvey  Lewis, 
Thomas  Chambers. 

Charles  Salisbury  Butler, 
Acton  Smee  Ayrton. 

Hon.  Robert  Wellesley  Oros- 

John  Stuart  Mill. 

Charles  Octayins  Swinnor- 

ton  Morgan, 
Poulett  George  Henry  So<- 

Crawshay  Bailey. 


(Eastern  I}iv%$ion») 
Edward  Howes, 
Clare  Sewell  Read. 

( Western  DivieUm, ) 
William  Bagge, 
Hon.  Thomas  Do  Orey. 

Rt.  hon.  Edward  (Stanley) 

Lord  Stanley, 
Sir  Thomas  Fowell  Buxton, 


Sir  William  Russell,  bt, 
Edward  Warner. 

Robert  John    Harrey-Har- 

Hon.      Alexander      Hugh 


Sir  Edmund  Henry  Knowles 

Lacon,  bt., 
James  Goodson. 


(Northern  Divieum.) 
George  Ward  Hunt, 

(Southern  DUfieion.) 
Sir  Rainald  Knightley,  bt., 
Henry  Cartwright. 

George  Hammond  Whalley, 
Thomson  Hankey. 

List  of 

Charles  Gilpin, 
Rt.  hon.  ADthony  (Henlej) 
Lord  Henley* 

{Northern  Division.) 
Hon.  (Henry  Hugh  Manvers 
Percy)  Lord   H.   H.  M. 
Sir  Matthew  White  Ridley, 

{Southern  Division,) 
Wentworth  Blackett  Beau- 
Hon.  Henry  George  Liddell. 

Rt.  hon.  Sir  George 
Joseph  Cowen, 
Rt.  hon.  Thomas  Emerson 

George  Otto  Trerelyan. 


{Northern  Division,) 
Rt.  hon.  John  Evelyn  De- 

Hon.  (Edward  William  Pel- 

ham-CIinton)  Lord  E.  W. 

{Southern  Division.) 
William  Hodgson  Barrow, 
Thomas  Blackborne  Thoro- 

ton  Hildy&rd. 


Grosvenor  Hodgkinson, 

Hon.  Arthur  (Pelham-Clin- 
ton) Lord  A.  Pelham- 


Ralph  Bernal  Osborne, 

Viscount  Amberley. 


Rt.    hon.    George    Edward 

Arundell     (Monckton-A- 

rundell)  Viscount  Galway, 

Francis    John    Sayile  Fol- 

.  jambe. 

Rt.    hon.    Joseph    Warner 

John  Sidney  North, 
John  William  Fane. 

Bemhard  Samnelson. 

.     OXFORD  (CITY). 
Charles  Neate, 
Rt.  Hon.  Edward  Cardwell. 

{COMMONS,  1867} 

Sir  William  Heathcote,  bt., 
Rt.  hon.  Gathorne  Hardy. 

Henry  Barnett. 

Hon.  Gerard  James  Noel, 
Hon.  Gilbert  Henry  Heath- 


{Northern  Division,) 
John  Ralph  Ormsby-Gore, 
Hon.   Adelbert    Wellington 

{Southern  Division.) 
Robert  Jasper  More, 
Hon.   Percy  Egerton  Her- 

John  Pritchard, 
Henry  Wbitmore. 

Hon.  George  Herbert  Wind- 
sor Windsor- Clive, 
John  Edmund  Sereme. 

George  Tomline, 
William  James  Clement. 

Rt.  hon.  George  Cecil  Weld 

James  Milnes  Gaskell. 


{Eastern  Division.) 
Ralph  Neville-GrenTille, 
Richard  Horner  Paget. 
( Western  Division.) 
Sir  Alexander  Fuller  Acland 

Hood,  bt., 
William  Henry  Powell  Gore- 

William  Tite, 
James  Macnaghten  Hogg. 


Alexander  William  Einglake, 

Philip  Vanderbyl. 


Sir  Henry  Creswicke  Raw- 


Alexander  Charles  Barclay, 
Hon.  William  Montagu  (Hay) 
Lord  W.  M.  Hay. 
Hedworth  Hylton  Jolliflfe, 
Arthur  Dirett  Hayter. 


Hon.  Francis  Henry  Fits'* 

hardinge  Berkeley, 
Sir  Samuel  Morton  Peto,  bt. 



{Northern  Division.) 

William  Wither    Bramston 

George  Sclater-Booth. 
{Southern  Division.) 
Sir  Jeryoise  Clarke  Clarke- 

Jervoise,  bt., 
Henry  Hamlyn  Fane. 

Hon.  Dudley   Francis  For- 

John  Edward  Walcott. 

William     Alexander    Mac- 

kinnon,  jun., 
Hon.  George  Charles  (Gor- 
don Lennox)  Lord  G.  C. 
Charles  Wykeham  Martin, 
Robert  William  Eennard. 

William  Nicholson. 

William  Henry  StonOf 
Stephen  Gaselee. 

Russell  Gurney, 
George  Moffatt. 

John  Bonham-Carter, 
William  Barrow  Simmonds. 


{Northern  Division.) 
Sir    Edward    Manningham 

Bulier,  bt., 
Rt.    hon.   Charles   Bowyer 

{Southern  Division.) 
Henry     John     Wentworth 
Hodgetts.  Foley, 

William  Orme  Foster. 

Hon.  Augustus  Henry  Archi- 
bald Anson, 
Richard  Dyott. 

William  Shepherd  Allen, 
Edmund  Buckley. 

Michael  Arthur  Bass, 
Walter  Meller. 


Alexuider  James  Beresford 

Hcaiy  BiYendAle  Grenfell. 

Bt  boo.  Sir  Robert  Peel,  bt., 
Jobn  Peel. 


Rt.   hoD.  Chaiies   PeUiam 

fhooas  Matthias  Weguelin. 


{EmaUrM  Dintion.) 

Hoa.  John  Major  Henniker- 

Windsor  Parker, 

Hon.       Augustas      Henry 

Charles  (HerTejr)  Lord  A. 

H.  C.  Herrej. 

Josqib  Alfred  HardcasUe, 
Edvard  Greene. 
Hon.  George  William  Bar- 


Hugh  Edirard  Adair, 
Jo&  Cherallier  Cobbold. 


(Etttlem  IXmnon,) 

Hon.    Peter    John    Locke 

Charles  Buiton. 

( IFcsteni  I}wigian,) 
John  iTatt  Briscoe, 
Geoige  Cnbitt. 

Goildford      James      Hillier 
Mainwaring  Elleker  On- 
Richard  Gtrth. 

Thomas  Hughes, 
Frederick  Doulton. 
OnaTUle  William  Qresham 

John  Locke, 
Austen  Henry  Layard. 

(EoMiam  Dwuion,) 
John  George  Dodson, 
Hon.    Edward    (Carendish) 

Lord  B.  CaTcndish. 

{COMMONS,  1867} 
Susfixz  CouNTT — eant. 

[enry  Wyndham, 
Walter  Barttelot  Barttelot. 

Rt.    hon.   (Edward  George 
Fits-Alan   Howard)  Lord 
E.  G.  F.  Howard. 

James  White, 
Henry  Fawcett. 

John  Abel  Smith, 
Hon.  (George  Charles  Henrr 

Gordon  Lennox)  Lord  G. 

C.  H.  G.  Lennox. 

Robert  Henry  Hurst. 

Hon.  Henry  Bouverie  Wil- 

liam  Brand, 
Hon.  Walter  John  (Pelham) 

Lord  Pelham. 

William  Townley  Mitford. 

Stephen  Care, 
Sir  Percy  Burrell,  bt. 


(Northern  DivtBion.) 

Charles  Newdigate  Newde- 

William  Darenport  Bromley, 

{Souihem  VivisioH.) 
Sir  Charles  Mordannt,  bt., 
Henry  Christopher  Wise. 

William  Scholefield, 
John  Bright. 

Morgan  Treherne, 
Henry  William  Eaton. 

George  William  John  Rep- 
Arthur  Wellesley  Peel. 



Hon.  Henry  Cecil  Lowther, 

Hon.  Thomas  (Taylour)  Earl 

of  Bective. 

George  Carr  Glyn. 

Sir  John  Simeon,  bt. 


(Northern  Diviium.) 
Hon.  Charles  William  (Bru- 
denell- Bruce)  Lord  C.  W. 
Richard  Penruddocke  Long. 

( Southern  IHvition.) 
Hon.       Henry      Frederick 
(Thynne)    Lord    H.    F, 
Thomas  Eraser  Grore. 

Rt.  hon.  Robert  Lowe. 

Sir  John  Neeld,  bt., 
Gabriel  Goldney. 

Ambrose   Lethbridge   God- 

Daniel  Gooch. 

Christopher  Darby  Griffith, 
Sir  Thomas  Bsteson,  bt. 


Rt.  hon.  (Ernest  Augustus 
Charles  Bmdenell-Bruce) 
Lord  E.  A.  C.  B.  Bruce, 

Henry  Bingham  Baring. 

Hon.  Henry  Charles  (How- 
ard) Viscount  AndoYor. 

Matthew  Henry  Marsh, 
Edward     William     Terriok 

Sir  Massey  Lopes,  bt. 

Edmund  Antrobus. 


(Eaatem  Divuion,) 
Hon.  Frederick  Henry  Wil- 
liam Gough  Calthorpe, 
Harry  Foley  Vernon. 

( Western  Divieion,) 
Frederick  Winn  Knight, 
William    Edward    Dowdes- 

Sir  Thomas  Edward  Win- 
nington,  bt. 

Rt.  hon.  Sir  John  Somerset 
Pakington,  bt. 
Henry  Brinsley  Sheridan. 

James  Bourne, 

Edward  Holland. 


Albert  GraDt. 

Alezftnder  CIudob  Sherriff, 
Richard  Padmore. 

(Nifrth  Riding.) 
Frederick  Acclom  Milbank, 
Hon.  William  Ernest  Dun- 

{Easi  Riding.) 
Rt.bon.  Beaumont  (Hotham) 

Lord  Hotham, 
Hon.  Arthur  Duneombe. 

(Iforth^mDivition,  Wut  Riding.) 
Sir  Francis  Crosslej,  hi., 
Hon.     Frederick     Charles 

(Cafendish)  Lord  F.  C. 

(SoidhendHvitionf  West  Riditig.) 
Hon.  William  (Wentworth- 


Henrj  Frederick  Beaumont. 

Sir  Henry  Sdwards,  bt., 
Christopher  Sjkes. 

Henry  Wickham  Wickham, 
William  Edward  Forster. 

James  Stansfeld, 
Edward  Akroyd. 

Thomas  Pearson  Crosland. 

James  Clay, 
Charles  Morgan  Norwood. 

Basil  Thomas  Woodd^ 
Isaac  Uolden. 

George  Skirrow  Beecroft, 
Edward  Baines. 

Hon.  Charles  William  Went- 

James  Brown. 

Hon.     Egremont     William 

Hugh  Culling  Eardley  Chil- 

Samuel  Waterhouse. 

Sir  Rouodell  Palmer,  knt. 
Marmaduko  WyTilU 

{COMMONS,  1867} 

Robert  Kearsley, 
Lord  John  Hay. 

Sir  John  Yanden  Bempde 

Johnstone,  bt., 
John  Dent  Dent. 

John  Arthur  Roebuck, 
Oeorge  Hadfield. 

Sir  William  Payne  Qallwey, 



William  Henry  Leatham. 

Charles  Bagnall. 

James  Lowther, 
George  Leeman. 




Alexander  George  Dickson, 

Charles  Kaye  Freshfield. 

Hon.   George   Waldegrare- 

Patrick  Francis  Robertson. 

Edward  Ejiatchbull-Huges- 

Charles  Capper. 

Baron  Mayer  Amachel    de 

Lauchlan  Bellingham  Mac- 



Sir  Richard  Bulkoley  Wil- 

liams-Bulkeley,  bt. 


Hon.  William  Owen  Stanley. 

Hon.  Godfrey  Charles  Mor- 

Howell  Gwyn. 

Sir  Thomas  Lloyd,  bt. 

CARDIGAN,  d^o. 

Edward  Lewis  Pryse. 


David  Jones, 
David  Pugh. 

William  Morris. 

Hon.  George  DouglasPea- 

William  Biilkeley  Hughes. 

Sir  Watkin  WiUiams  Wynn, 

Robert  Myddelton  Biddulph. 

DENBIGH,  &o. 
Townshend  Mainwaring. 

Hon.    (Richard    de    Aquila 
Grosvenor)  Lord  R.  Groa- 


FLINT,  Ac. 
Sir  John  Hanmer,  bt. 

Christopher    Rice     Mansel 

Henry  Hussey  Vivian. 

CARDIFF,  &o. 
James     Frederick     Dudley 
Crichton-  Stuart. 
Lewis  Llewellyn  Dillwyn. 

Rt.  hon.  Henry  Austin  Bruce. 

William    Robert     Maurico 

Charles   Watkins   Williams 

Hon.  Charles  Richard  Doug- 
las Hanbury-Tracy. 

James  Be  van  Bowen. 
Sir  Hugh  Owen  Owen,  bt. 

John  Henry  Scourfield. 

Sir  John  Benn  Walsh,  bt. 

Richard  Green  Price, 

Lisi  of 


William  Dingwall  Ford  jce. 

William  Henry  Sykes. 

Alexander  Struthers  Finlay. 

Sir  James  Fergusson,  bt. 


Rt.  hoh.  Edward  Fleydell 


Edward  Henry  John  Crau- 


Bobert  William  Duff. 

Dayid  Robertson. 

James  Lament. 

George  Traill. 

Samuel  Laing. 

William  Patrick  Adam. 

Patrick  Boyle  Smollett. 

George  Gustavus  Walker. 

DUMFRIES,  Ac.   ^ 
William  Ewart. 

Hon.  William  Henry  Walter 
'     Earl  of  Dalkeith. 

Duncan  McLaren,  •    . 

Bt.  hon.  James  Moncreiff.     ' 

William  Miller. 

Charles  Lemiox  Gumming- 

Mountstuart       Elphinstone 
Grant  Duff. 

Sir  Robert  Anstruther,  bt. 


Edward  Ellice. 

{COMMONS,  1867} 

Roger  Sinclair  Aytoun. 

Hon.  Charles  Carnegie. 

Sir  John  Ogilvy,  bt. 

William  Edward  Baxter. 

Hon.  Francis  Wemyss  (Char- 
teris)  Lord  Elcho. 

Sir  Henry  Robert  Ferguson 
Darie,  bt. 

Henry  James  Baillie. 

Alexander  Matheson. 

James  Dyce  Nicol. 

James  Mackie. 

Sir  Thomas  Edward  Cole- 
brooke,  bt. 

William  Graham, 
Robert  Dalglish. 

Peter  McLagan. 

Frederick  Dundas. 

Sir  Graham  Graham  Mont- 
gomery,  bt. 

Sir  William  Stirling  Max- 
well,  bt. 

Hon.  Arthur  FitzGerald  Kin- 

Archibald  Alexander  Speirs. 

Humphrey    Ewing     Crum- 

Alexander  Murray  Dunlop. 

Sir  James  Matheson,  bt. 

Sir  William  Scott,  bt. 

Hon.  (Henry  John  Montagu- 
Douglas- Scott)   Lord    H. 
J.  M.  D.  Scott. 


John  Elphinstone  Erskine. 

Lawrence  Oliphant. 

James  Merry. 

Rt.  hon.  Sir  David  Dundas. 

Sir  Andrew  Agnew,  bt. 

George  Young. 


Edward  O'Neill, 
George  Henry  Seymour. 

Samuel  Gibson  Getty, 
Charles  Lanyon. 

Robert  Torrens. 

Edward  Wiugfield  Verner. 

Sir  William  Vomer,  bt.. 
Sir  James  Mathew  Stronge, 

John  Vance. 

Dennis  William  Pack  Beres- 

Henry  Bruen. 

Osborne  Stock. 

Hon.  Hugh  Annesley, 
Edward  Saunders  on. 

Crofton  M.  Vandeleur, 
Sir  Cohnan  Michael  O'Logh- 
len,  bt. 

William  Stacpoole. 

Nicholas  Philpot  Leader, 

Hon,  Henry  Boyle  Bernard. 

Nicholas  Daniel  Murphy, 
John  Francis  Maguire. 


Sir   Qeorge   Oonway  Colt- 
hunt,  bt. 

Edward  Suli'iTan. 

Joseph  Neale  M'Kenna. 

Hon.      James     (Hamilton) 

Yiscount  Hamilton, 
Thomas  ConoUy. 

Hon.  (Arthur  Edwin  Hill- 

TreTor)  Lord  A.  B.  Hill- 

William  Brownlow  Forde. 

Arthur  Charles  Norres. 

Dayid  Stewart  Eer. 

Thomas  Edwutl  Taylor, 
Ion  Trant  Hamilton. 

Benjamin  Lee  Guinness, 
Jonathan  Pirn. 

Anthony  Lefroy, 

Meryyn  Edward  Archdall, 
Hon.  Henry  Arthur  Cole. 

Hon.  John  Lowry  Cole. 

William  Henry  Gregory, 
Hon.   Ulick    Canning    (De 
Burgh)  Lord  Dunkellin. 

Sir  Rowland  Blennerhasset, 

Rt.  hon.  Valentine  Augustus 

(Browne)  Viscount  Castle- 

Henry  Arthur  Herhert. 

O'Donoghue,    Daniel    (The 

William  Henry  Ford  Cogan, 
Hon.  (Otho  Augustus  Fiti- 
Gerald)  Lord  0.  A.  Fits- 

{COMMONS,  1867) 

George  Leopold  Bryan, 
Hon.  Leopold  George  Fre- 
derick Agar-EUis. 

Sir  John  Gray. 

John  Gilhert  King, 
Sir  Patrick  O'Brien,  bt. 

William    Richard  Ormshy- 

John  Brady. 

Rt.  hon.  William  Monsell, 
Edmund  John  Synan. 

George  Gavin, 
Francis  William  Russell. 

Robert  Peel  Dawson, 
Sir  Frederick  William  Hey- 
gate,  bt. 

Sir  Henry  Hervey  Bruce,  bt. 

Hon.  (Claud  John  Hamilton) 
Lord  C.  J.  Hamilton. 

Myles  William  O'Reilly, 
Fulke  Southwell  Grerille. 

Rt.  hon.  Chichester  Samuel 

Tristram  Kennedy. 

Sir  George  Bowyer,  bt. 

Benjamin  Whitworth. 


Hon.  John  Thomas  (Browne) 
Lord  J.  T.  Browne, 

Hon.  Richard  Camden  (Bing- 
ham) Lord  Bingham. 

Matthew  Elias  Corbally, 
Edward  MacEyoy. 

Charles  Powell  Leslie, 
Hon.  Yesey  Dawson. 

Francis  Plunket  Dunne, 
Rt.  hon.  John  Wilson  Fitc- 
I     Patrick. 

James  Anthony  Lawson. 

Fitzstephen  French, 
The  0 'Conor  Don. 

Sir  Robert  Gore  Booth,  bt., 
Edward  Henry  Cooper. 

Richard  Armstrong. 

Charles  Moore. 
Hon.  Charles  White. 

James  Lyster  O'Beime. 

John  Bagwell. 

Rt.    hon.    Henry    Thomas 

Rt.  hon.  (Claud  Hamilton) 

Lord  C.  Hamilton. 

Hon.  William  Stuart  Knox. 

John  Esmonde, 
Edmond  de  la  Poer. 

Charles  Robert  Barry. 

John  Aloysius  Blake, 
Sir  Henrjf  Winston  Barron, 

William  Pollard- Urquh art, 
Algernon     William     Falke 

DAiis  Joseph  Rearden. 

Sir  James  Power,  bt., 
Arthur  Eayanagh. 

Richard  Joseph  Deyereux. 

Charles  George  Tottenham. 

William    Wentworth  .  Fitx- 

william  Dick, 
Hon.     Granville     Leresoa 

(Proby)  Lord  Proby. 




Second  Session  of  the  Nineteenth  Parliament  of  the 
United  Kingdom  of  Great  Britain  and  Ireland 
Appointed  to  meet  1  Febbuabt,  1866,  and  thence 
continued  till  5  Febbuabt,  1867,  in  the  Thibtieth 
Teab   of  the   Reign   of 



2Wfdby»  JMrumy  6, 1867. 

rB  PABUAMXNT,  which  had  been 
Pkorogned  suoceeaiyely  from  the  10th 
day  of  Angnst  to  the  25tii  day  of  Octo* 
ber ;  thenoe  to  the  20th  day  of  Noyember ; 
thenee  to  the  15th  day  of  January; 
thenee  to  the  6th  day  of  February ;  met 
this  day  for  Despatch  of  Bosinees. 

The  Seasion  of^PAHLTAvmiT  was  opened 
by  Tax  QuxEH  in  Person. 

the  queeits  speech. 

HEE  ICAJESTT,  being  seated  on  the 
Thnme,  adorned  with  Her  Crown  and 
Begal  Ornaments,  and  attended  by  Her 
Oleen  of  State :— The  Panrcn  ot  Walis 
0B  hisBobes)  sitting  in  his  Chair  on  Hbb 

YOL,  CLXXXY.    [thibd  skbos.] 

Majsstt's  right  hand — (the  Lords  being  in 
their  Robes)— commanded  the  Gentleman 
Usher  of  the  Black  Bod,  through  the 
Deputy  Lord  Oreat  Chamberlain,  to  let 
the  Commons  know  **  It  is  Her  Majesty's 
Pleasure  they  attend  Her  immediately,  in 
this  House." 

Who  bebg  come,  with  their  Speaker ; 

The  LoBD  Chavcbllob,  taking  Direc* 
tions  from  Hxb  Majesty,  said — 

My  Lards,  and  QenOemm, 

**  In  again  reenrring  to  your  Advice 
and  Assistance,  I  am  happy  to  inform 
you  that  My  Belations  with  Foreign 
Powers  are  on  a  friendly  and  satis- 
{eustory  Footing. 

<'  I  HOPE  that  the  TemtMnation  of 
the  War  in  which  Prussia,  Austria^ 
and  Ikdy  have  been  engaged  maj 

l%e  Quern*  9 

ftnt  of  a  durable 


lead  to  the  Ertablt 
Peace  in  Europe, 

''  I  HAYB  raggeated  to  tbe  Govern- 
ment of  the  UnUed  States  a  Mode  by 
which  Questions  pending  between  the 
Two  Oountries  arising  out  of  the  late 
Civil  War  may  receive  amicable  Solu- 
tion^  and  which,  if  met,  as  I  trust  it 
will  be,  in  a  corresponding  Spirit,  will 
remove  all  Orounds  of  possible  Mis- 
understanding, and  promote  Relations 
of  cordial  Friendship. 

"  Thb  War  between  Spain  and  the 
Bepublics  of  OhUi  and  Peru  still  con- 
tinues, the  good  Offices  of  My  Gk>- 
vemment,  in  conjunction  with  that  of 
The  Emperor  of  the  French,  having 
failed  to  effect  a  Beoonciliation.  If 
either  by  Agreement  between  the 
Parties  themselves,  or  by  the  Media- 
tion of  any  other  friendly  Power, 
Peace  shall  be  restored,  the  Object 
which  I  have  had  in  view  will  equally 
be  attained. 

''Discontent  prevailing  in  some 
Provinces  of  the  Turkish  Empire  has 
broken  out  in  actual  Insurrection  in 
Cfrete.  In  common  with  My  Allies, 
The  Emperor  of  the  French  and  The 
Emperor  of  £fM9ia,  I  have  abstained 
from  any  active  Interference  in  these 
internal  Disturbances,  but  Our  joint 
Efforts  have  been  directed  to  bringing 
about  improved  fielations  between 
the  Porte  and  its  Christian  Subjects^ 
not  inoonsiBtent  with  the  sovereign 
Bights  of  The  Sultan. 

''Thb  protractedNegotiations  which 
arose  out  of  the  Acceptance  by  Prince 
Charles  of  SohenzoOem  of  the  Gh>vem« 
ment  of  the  Danubian  Principalities 
have  been  happily  terminated  by  an 
Arrangement  to  which  the  Porte  has 
given  its  ready  Adhoeuuii  and  which 



has  been  sanctioned  by  the  Concur- 
rence of  all  the  Powers,  Signataries 
pftheTreaty  of  1856. 

"  BasoLunoNs  in  favour  of  a  more 
intimate  Union  of  the  Provinces  of 
Canada^  Nova  Scotia,  and  New  Bruns- 
wick  have  been  passed  by  their  several 
Legislatures;  and  Delegates  duly 
authorized  and  representing  all  Classes 
of  Colonial  Party  and  Opinion  have 
concurred  in  the  Conditions  upon 
which  such  an  Union  may  be  best 
effected.  In  accordance  with]  their 
Wishes  a  Bill  will  be  submitted  to 
you,  which,  by  the  Consolidation  of 
Colonial  Interests  and  Besources,  will 
give  Strength  to  the  several  Provinces 
as  Members  of  the  same  Empire,  and 
animated  by  Feelings  of  Loyalty  to 
the  same  Sovereign. 

"  I  HAVB  heard  with  deep  Sorrow 
that  the  Calamity  of  Famine  has 
pressed  heavily  on  My  Subjects  in 
some  Parts  of  India.  Instructions 
were  issued  to  My  Government  in 
that  Country  to  make  the  utmost 
Exertions  to  mitigate  the  Distress 
which  prevailed  during  the  Autumn 
of  last  Tear.  The  Blessing  of  an 
abundant  Harvest  has  since  that  Time 
materially  improved  the  Condition  of 
the  suffering  Districts. 

"  The  persevering  Efforts  and  un- 
scrupulous  Assertions  of  treasonable 
Conspirators  abroad  have,  during  the 
last  Autumn,  excited  the  Hopes  of 
some  disaffected  Persons  in  Ireland, 
and  the  Apprehensions  of  the  loyal 
Population;  but  the  firm,  yet  tem- 
perate Exercise  of  the  Powers  entrust- 
ed to  the  Executive,  and  the  Hostility 
manifested  against  the  Conspiracy  by 
Men  of  all  Classes  and  Creeds,  have 
greatly  tended  to  reitord  PnbUo  Con* 

5  I%e  QiemtB  (Febevabt 

fide&oej  and  have  rendered  hopeleM 
any  Attempt  to  disturb  the  general 
Tranquillity.  I  trust  that  yon  may 
consequently  be  enabled  to  dispense 
with  the  Continuance  of  any  excep- 
tional Legislation  for  that  Fart  of 
My  Dominions. 

''  I ACKNO  WLBDQB,  with  dccp  Thank- 
fulness  to  Almighty  God,  the  great 
Decrease  that  has  taken  place  in  the 
Cholera,  and  in  the  PestUence  which 
has  attacked  our  Cattle ;  but  the  con- 
tinued Prevalence  ofthe  latter  in  some 
Foreign  Countries,  and  its  occasional 
Be-appearance  in  this,  will  still  render 
necessary  some  special  Measures  of 
Precaution;  and  I  trust  that  the  Visi- 
tation of  the  former  will  lead  to  in- 
creased Attention  to  those  Sanitary 
Measures  which  Experience  has  shown 
to  be  the  best  Preyentive. 

''EsTiHATiNo  as  of  the  highest  Im- 
portance an  adequate  Supply  of  pure 
and  wholesome  Water,  I  have  directed 
the  Issue  of  a  Commission  to  inquire 
into  the  best  Means  of  permanently 
securing  such  a  Supply  for  the  Me« 
tropolis,  and  for  the  principal  Towns 
in  densely-peopled  Districts  of  the 

QerUUmen  of  the  ShuM  of 



**  I  HAYB  directed  the  Estimates  for 
the  ensuing  Year  to  be  laid  before 
you.  They  hare  been  prepared  with 
a  due  Regard  to  Economy,  and  to  the 
Beqairements  of  the  public  Service. 

''  You  will,  I  am  assured,  give  your 
ready  Assent  to  a  moderate  Expendi- 
ture calculated  to  improre  the  Condi- 
tion of  My  Soldiers,  and  to  lay  the 
Foundation  of  an  efficient  Army  of 

5,1867}  Bpmh,  6 

My  Lords,  and  OfmOemm, 

''YouB  Attention  will  again  be 
caUed  to  the  State  of  the  Bepresenta- 
tion  of  the  People  in  Parliament ;  and 
I  trust  that  your  Deliberations,  con- 
ducted  in  a  Spirit  of  Moderation  and 
mutual  Forbearance,  may  lead  to  the 
Adoption  of  Measures  which,  without 
unduly  disturbing  the  Balance  of 
political  Power,  shall  freely  extend 
the  Elective  Franchise. 

''Thb  frequent  Occurrence  of  Dis- 
agreements between  Employers  of 
Labour  and  their  Workmen,  causing 
much  private  Suffering  and  public 
Loss,  and  occasionally  leading,  as  is 
alleged,  to  Acts  of  Outrage  and  Vio- 
lence, has  induced  Me  to  issue  a  Com- 
mission to  inquire  into  and  report 
upon  the  Organization  of  Trades 
Unions  and  other  Associations,  whe- 
ther of  Workmen  or  Employers,  with 
Power  to  suggest  any  Improvement 
of  the  Law  for  their  mutual  Benefit. 
Application  will  be  made  to  you  for 
Parliamentary  Powers,  which  will  be 
necessary  to  make  this  Inquiry  effec- 

"I  HAVE  directed  Bills  to  be  laid 
before  you  for  the  Extension  of  the 
beneficial  Provisions  of  the  Factory 
Acts  to  other  Trades  specially  re- 
ported on  by  the  Boyal  Commission 
on  the  Employment  of  Children,  and 
for  the  better  Begulation,  according 
to  the  Principle  of  those  Acts,  of 
Workshops  where  Women  and  Chil* 
dren  are  largely  employed. 

*'  The  Condition  of  the  Mercantile 
Marine  has  attracted  My  serious  At- 
tention. Complaints  are  made  that 
the  Supply  of  Seamen  is  deficient,  and 
that  the  Provisions  for  their  Health 
Discipline  on  board  Ship  are  im- 

Tk$  dumfi 




perfect  Measures  will  be  submitted 
to  you  with  a  yiew  to  increase  the 
Efficiency  of  this  important  Service. 

^'I  HAYB  observed  with  Satisfaction 
the  BAlaxations  recently  introduced 
into  the  Navigation  Laws  of  JVaitca. 
I  hare  expressed  to  The  Emperor  of 
the  H'ench  My  Readiness  to  submit 
to  Parliament  a  Proposal  for  the  Ex- 
tinction,  on  equitable  Terms,  of  the 
Exemptions  from  local  Charges  on 
Shipping  which  are  still  enjoyed  by 
a  limited  Number  of  Individuals  in 
British 'PottB;  and  His  Imperial  Ma- 
jesty has,  in  anticipation  of  this  Step, 
already  admitted  British  Ships  to  the 
Adyantage  of  the  new  Law.  A  Bill 
upon  this  Subject  will  forthwith  be 
laid  before  you. 

"  A  Bill  will  also  be  submitted  to 
you  for  making  better  Provision  for 
the  Arrangement  of  the  Affairs  of 
Railway  Companies  which  are  unable 
to  meet  their  Engagements. 

''MxASURBS  wiU  be  submitted  to 
you  for  Improving  the  Management 
of  sick  and  other  Poor  in  the  Metro- 
polis, and  for  a  Be-distribution  of  some 
of  the  Charges  for  Belief  therein. 

^'YouB  Attention  wiU  also  be  called 
to  the  Amendment  of  the  Law  of 
Bankruptcy;  to  the  Consolidation  of 
the  Courts  of  Probate  and  Divorce 
and  Admiralty ;  and  to  the  Means  of 
disposing,  with  greater  Despatch  and 
Frequency,  of  the  increasing  Business 
in  the  Superior  Courts  of  Common 
Law  and  at  the  Assizes. 

''  Thb  Relations  between  Landlord 
and  Tenant  in  Ireland  hare  engaged 
My  anxious  Attention,  and  a  Bill  will 
be  laid  before  you  which,  without 
interfering  with  the  Rights  of  Pro- 
pertyi  will  offer  direct  Encouragement 

to  Occupiers  of  Land  to  improve  thdr 
Holdings,  and  provide  a  simple  Mode 
of  obtaining  Compensation  for  per- 
manent Improvements. 

"  I  COMMEND  to  your  careful  Con- 
sideration these  and  other  Measures 
which  will  be  brought  before  you;  and 
I  pray  that  your  Labours  may,  under 
the  Blessing  of  Providence,  conduce 
to  the  Prosperity  of  the  Country,  and 
the  Happiness  of  My  People/' 

Then  Hsb  Majsstt  retired. 

Boll  of  the  Loeds — Garter  King  of 
Arms  attending,  cMto^riM^  at  the  Table  (in 
the  usual  Manner)  a  List  of  the  Lords 
Temporal  in  the  Second  Session  of  the 
Nineteenth  Parliament  of  the  United  King- 
dom :  The  same  was  Ordered  to  lie  on  the 

Several  Lords— Took  the  Oath. 

Charles  Stanley  Yiscount  Monck,  in  that 
Part  of  the  United  Kingdom  of  Great  Bri- 
tain and  Iceland  oall^  Ireland,  having 
been  created  Baron  Honck  of  Ballytrammon 
in  the  County  of  Weidford— Was  (in  the 
usual  Manner)  introduced. 

Gustavns  Frederick  Yisoount  Boyne,  in 
that  Part  of  the  United  Kingdom  of  Great 
Britain  and  Ireland  called  Ireland,  having 
been  oreated  Baron  Branoepeth  of  Brance- 
peth  in  the  County  Palatine  of  Darham— - 
Was  (in  the  usual  Manner)  introdaoed. 

Writs  and  Betnms  electing  The  Yis- 
count Templetown  a  Bepresentative  Peer 
for  Ireland  in  the  Room  of  the  late  Earl 
of  Lanesborough,  deoeased,  with  the  Cer- 
tifloate  of  the  Clerk  of  the  Crown  in  Ire- 
land annexed  thereto— i>^Mp«rMf  (on  Oath), 
and  Certificate  read. 

The  Marquees  Camden  — Sat  first  iu 
Parliament  after  the  Death  of  his  Father. 

The  Earl  of  Chesterfield— Sat  first  in 
Parliament  after  the  Death  of  his  Father. 

Billi  profirmdf  read  1*. 

Tn  QUEEITS  SPEECH  having  been 
riparUd  by  The  J/m  CEAMOKUU»i^^ 



(Fxbbvast5,  1867) 

Bi$r  Mqfuiff, 



Eaxl  BEAUCHAMPy  in  rifling  to  move 
•an  humble  AddresB  in  answer  to  Her  Ma- 
jesty's most  gracious  Speech  from  the 
Throne^  said :  My  Lords,  in  approaching 
my  arduous  and  responsible  task,  I  cannot 
but  wish  it  had  been  committed  to  some 
Peer  of  greater  experience  in  your  Lord- 
ships' House  than  I  can  in  any  way  pretend 
to.  The  topics  suggested  by  the  Speech 
are  so  nnmerous«  so  varied,  and  so  impor- 
tant,  that  it  will  be  impossible  to  give 
each  of  them,  in  so  short  a  time,  anything 
like  the  consideration  they  deserve.  I 
will,  however,  presume  to  touch  upon  a 
few  of  the  principal  matters  referred  to. 

Tour  LonLahips  will,  I  have  no  doubt, 
folly  concur  with  me  in  the  belief  that  the 
first  topic  in  the  Speech  has  been  so  placed 
from  a  due  regard  to  its  importance— -for  to 
this  country  &e  question  of  peace  or  war 
is  on.e  of  tiie  deepest  interest.    It  must, 
therefore,  be  ,a  matter  of  great  satisfaction 
to  your  Lordships  to  be  assured  that  Her 
Majesty's  relations  with  Foreign  Powers 
continue  to  be  of  the  most  finendly  de- 
scription.   When  you  remember  that  so 
recently  as  last  year  the  peace  of  Europe 
was  disturbed  by  a  sangumary  war,  it  is, 
indeed,  satis&ctory  for  us  to  learn  that 
Her  Majesty  can    express    a    confident 
hope  in  the  uuration  of  peace  in  Europe. 
The  blessings  of  peace  are  so  great  that  it 
is  impossible  to  overrate    them.    It  is, 
therefore,  matter  for  further  congratula- 
tion that  those  difficult  questions  which 
exist  between  the  United  States  and  this 
country— questions  which  have  given  rise 
to  a  considerable  amount  of  apprehension 
in  the  minds  of  a  large  portion  of  the 
population  of  this  coun^,  are  now  in  the 
way  of  a  speedy  and  satisfactory  solution. 
.  Hy  Lords,  I  believe  that  but  one  feeling 
animates  Ihe  people  of  this  country  ;  and 
that  is  a  most  cordial  desire  to  be  on 
friendly  terms  with  the  people  of   the 
great  American  Bepublio.    And  while  it 
is  right  and  proper  for  this  country  to 
maintain  what  they  may  fairly  regard  as 
their  own  right,  it  is  not  unbecoming  for 
ft  great  nation  like  ours,  should  feelings  of 
irritation  arise,  to  make  such  concessions 
as  we  may  make  without  injury  to  our 
honour  in  order  to  secure  the  continuance 
of  friendly  relations  with  Foreign  Powers, 
^hich  are  so  important  to  our  prosperity. 
Uy  Lords,  Her  Majesty  has  told  us  that 
She  xegnis  the  continuance  of  the  war 

between  Spain  and  Chile  and  Peru ;  and 
we  can  heurtily  join  with  her  in  the  hope 
that  peace  between  those  belligerents  may 
soon  be  restored.  During  the  recess  your 
Lordships'  attention  has  doubtless  been 
called  to  the  insurrection  in  Crete,  and 
your  Lordships  had,  no  doubt,  read  with 
heartfelt  pity  the  record  of  the  beroic  and 
gallant  struggles  which  have  taken  place 
on  that  island.  I  think  it  is  a  matter  of 
some  satisfaction  that  the  insurrection  took 
place  while  Parliament  was  not  sitting. 
I  cannot  forget  the  struggle  which  was 
made  by  a  gaUant  nation— the  Poles — and 
that  during  that  struggle  injudicious  ex- 
pressions used  by  Members  of  Parliament 
were  construed  into  meaning  that  this 
country  was  prepared  to  afford  a  far 
larger  amount  of  sympathy  for  the  cause 
than  was  ever  intended.  I  think  that 
the  Members  of  the  Legislature  should 
bear  in  mind  the  great  responsibility 
which  attaches  to  their  utterances.  We 
have  seen  the  result  in  the  case  of 
Poland,  and  I  cannot  but  rejoice  that  the 
insurrection  in  Crete  took  place  when  this 
House  was  not  sitting,  because  expressions 
of  sympathy  might  have  been  regarded  as 
promises  of  material  assistance  which  we 
were  unable  to  afifbrd.  The  House  will, 
however,  learn  with  great  satisfaction 
that  Her  Majesty  has  been  enabled,  in 
common  with  her  allies,  to  bring  about 
improved  relations  between  the  Porte  and 
its  Christian  subjects  not  inconsistent  with 
the  sovereign  rights  of  the  Sultan.  My 
Lords,  that  observation  applies  not  only  to 
Crete,  but  also  to  the  Danubian  Principa- 
lities, an  arrangement  having  been  made 
to  which  the  Porte  had  given  its  ready  ad- 
hesion, and  which  has  been  sanctioned 
by  all  the  Powers  signataries  of  the  Treatv 
of  1856. 

While,  however,  my  Lords,  we  look  with 
satisfaction  to  our  relations  with  Foreign 
Powers,  we  should  not  lose  sight  of  the 
interests  of  those  colonies  which,  sheltered 
under  our  fostering  care,  have  grown  and 
increased  in  strength  until  they  have  as- 
sumed the  importimoe  and  responsibilitiea 
of  large  communities.  It  must  accord- 
ingly be  gratifying  to  know  that  a  Bill 
is  to  be  intitt^uced  for  the  consoli- 
dation of  their  interests  and  resources.  We 
should  all  be  heartily  glad  if  the  same 
love  of  peace  and  desire  for  union  which 
prevails  in  our  North  American  Colonies 
existed  in  every  other  portion  of  the 
British  Empire.  Unhappily  a  widely- 
spread  conspiracy  has  for  some  years  dis* 




JSTtfT  JAg^M^Mi 


turbed  fhe  seeurity  of  the  loyal  portion 
of  Ker  Majesty's  sabjects  in  Ireland.  But 
we  have  at  least  the  satis&ction  of  know* 
ing  that  the  designs  of  the  misguided  men 
who  engaged  in  that  senseless  undertaking 
have  been  completely  defeated  by  the  pru- 
dent precautions  which  have  Men  taken 
by  the  Government,  and  also  to  some  ez- 
trat,  we  may  hope,  by  the  reviving  loyalty 
of  some  of  &e  persons  who  had  been  de- 
luded by  the  machinations  of  the  leading 
oonspirators.  The  danger  has  now,  in  a 
great  measure,  passed  away ;  and,  happily, 
the  spirit  of  disa£fection  has  extended  to 
only  a  small  portion  of  the  population  of 
Ireland,  while  the  whole  course  of  those 
events  has  shown  that  the  vast  minority 
of  that  population,  of  all  creeds  and  classes, 
are  sincerely  attached  to  the  Grown  and 
Government  of  the  United  Kingdom. 

Her  Majesty  expresses  the  deep  sorrow 
with  which  She  has  heard  of  the  dread- 
ful famine  which  since  last  summer  has 
afflicted  some  portion  of  Ker  Indian 
subjects;  and  were  is  not  one  among 
your  Lordships  who  does  not  share  in 
that  feeling,  and  who  will  not  rejoice 
with  Her  Majesty  in  the  termination  of 
so  great  a  calamity.  At  the  meeting 
of  Parliament  at  the  commencement  of 
last  year,  a  large  portion  of  the  agricul- 
tural interest  of  this  country  was  greatly 
afifeoted  by  the  cattle  plague,  which  oc- 
casioned great  suffering  and  distress  in 
many  districts;  but  your  Lordships  will 
hear  with  satisfaction  that  by  reason  of  the 
important  measures  which  were  passed  by 
Parliament,  or  in  consequence  of  the  na- 
tural dying  out  of  the  disease  in  the  winter 
months,  the  scourge  has  passed  away.  We 
have,  however,  since  had  to  meet  a  more 
serious  peril  to  our  social  welfare  and 
prosperity  created  by  a  visitation  of  cho- 
lera. That,  too,  has  passed  away;  but 
the  poison  of  that  disease  is  so  subtle  and 
so  deadly,  that  it  is  evidently  the  duty  of 
those  charged  with  the  responsibility  of 
Government  to  take  eyerj  precaution 
against  the  recurrence  of  such  a  calamitv ; 
and  therefore  we  must  learn  with  satis- 
faction that  a  Eoyal  Commission  is  about 
to  be  appointed  for  the  purpose  of  in- 
quiring into  the  import^t  sanitary  sub- 
ject of  the  supply  of  pure  water  to  our 
towns  and  cities.  While  referring  to  that 
topic,  I  will  venture  to  express  a  hope  that 
the  owners  of  property  throughout  the 
country  will  do  all  in  their  power  to 
aid  in  furthering  these  efforts  for  the  pro- 
motion of  the  public  healtii,  ai^d  that  they 

Sari  Beauchamp 

will  all  in  that  respect  imitate  the  good 
example  set  us  by  Her  Majesty.  The 
Boyal  Speech  afterwards  contains  a  refer- 
ence to  the  subject  of  Parliamentary  Be- 
form;  and  I  am  sure  your  Lordships  will 
heartily  rejoice  to  know  that  there  exists 
at  last  a  prospect  of  bringing  that  long- 
vexed  question  to  a  satisfactory  settlement. 
It  is  impossible  for  me  to  say  what  may  be 
the  nature  of  the  proposal  Her  Majesty's 
Government  will  have  to  submit  to  Parlia- 
ment upon  this  subject ;  but  we  must  all 
earnestly  hope  that  it  will  be  one  calcu- 
lated to  improve  the  constitution  of  the 

The  questions  of  our  sanitary  condi- 
tion and  of  Parliamentary  Beform  are 
no  doubt  of  immense  consequence ;  but  I 
venture  to  think  that  in  their  immediate 
bearing  on  the  National  welfare  they  must 
^eld  to  that  great  danger  which  is  impend- 
ing over  the  country  in  consequence  of  the 
bdefiil  operations  of  the  trades  unions.  We 
have  adopted  the  principle  of  free  trade 
in  our  whole  commercial  policy ;  but  I 
believe  that  freedom  of  trade  cannot 
exist  without  freedom  of  labour,  and 
that  this  country  cannot  maintain  its 
position  as  the  industrial  centre  of  the 
commercial  world  if  the  operations  of  the 
trades  unions  restrict  the  employment  of 
labour  and  prevent  the  artisans  from 
making  the  best  use  they  can  of  their 
skill  and  industry.  Adam  Smith,  in  his 
Wealth  oflfaitons,  lays  down  the  doctrine 
that  the  patrimony  of  the  working-man 
oonsists  in  his  strength  and  dexterity  of 
hand,  and  that  anything  that  prevents 
him  from  employing  that  strength  and 
dexterity  is  a  violation  of  his  just  rights. 
The  restrictions  which  are  now  imposed 
on  the  working-men  of  this  country  are  of 
a  different  kind  from  those  whidi  were 
contemplated  by  Adam  Smith,  but  they 
are  not  the  less  serious  nor  less  dangerous. 
It  is  possibly  within  the  knowledge  of 
your  Lordships  that  important  trades  and 
branches  of  manufactures  formerly  exe- 
cuted in  this  country  are  passing  away 
from  us  in  consequence  of  tne  operationB 
of  a  portion  of  our  artisans ;  and  those 
artisans  not  only  injure  themselves  by  the 
course  they  have  thought  fit  to  adopts 
but  they  deprive  other  people  of  the  op- 
portunity of  earning  their  accustomed 
wages,  and  thus  they  materially  diminish 
the  general  means  of  subsistence.  I  am 
persuaded  that  your  Lordships  will  do  all 
you  can  to  render  the  inquiries  of  the 
Royal  Comminion  into  this  sniject  as 



{Fbbbvajit  5, 1S67) 

Oraei^m  Bpee&h.  14 

effeoHre  iub  poadble.  I  ftirther  belieTe 
that  you  will  heartily  join  in  retoming 
your  humble  thanks  to  Her  Majesty  for 
the  interest  She  has  exhibited  in  the  con- 
dition of  children  employed  in  fiictories. 
The  foctory  laws  already  form  one  of  the 
brightest  pages  in  our  National  legislation, 
and  we  shidl  all  heartily  rejoice  if  any 
considerable  addition  can  be  made  to  that 
legislation  during  the  course  of  the  pre- 
sent Session.  Another  important  subject, 
to  which  Her  Majesty  refers,  is  the  relief 
of  embarrassed  rsllway  companies  ;  and  it 
is  manifestly  desirable  that  some  mode 
should,  if  possible,  be  adopted  of  enabling 
them  to  meet  their  liabilities.  Her  Ma- 
jesty also  informs  us  that  the  relation  of 
landlord  and  tenant  in  Ireland  is  also  to 
engage  our  attention  during  the  present 
Session.  It  is  not  for  me,  unacquainted 
as  I  am  with  Ireland,  to  express  any 
opinion  upon  that  question ;  but  of  this  I 
feel  assui^,  that  if  any  simple  mode  can 
be  provided  of  giving  compensation  for 
permanent  improvements,  it  will  go  fiur  to 
settle  a  question  which  has  disturbed  a 
considerable  part  of  Ireland,  and  heal  a 
very  dangerous  sore.  I  shall  be  ashamed 
to  trespass  any  longer  on  your  Lordships' 
attention,  but  I  cannot  prevail  on  myself 
to  conclude  without  making  one  other  ob- 
servation. In  these  times,  when  efforts 
are  made  to  persuade  this  and  other  coun- 
tries that  the  people  of  England  are  dis- 
satisfied with  the  institutions  under  which 
they  live,  I  cannot  refrain  from  noting 
witii  satisliEuition  and  pleasure — in  which  I 
am  sure  all  your  Lordships  will  share — 
the  enthusiaatic  reception  accorded  to  the 
Queen  in  Her  recent  visit  to  one  of  the  great 
mining  districts  of  the  kingdom.  Her  Muh 
jesty  was  received  on  that  occasion  with  a 
most  cordial  welcome ;  the  highest  and  the 
lowest  vied  with  each  other  in  demonstra- 
tions of  affection  to  their  Sovereign.  I 
venture  to  think  that  no  occasion  could 
have  been  more  appropriate  for  Her  Ma- 
jesty to  re-aj^ear  among  Her  people,  as 
the  national  ezpon^t  of  their  sympathies, 
whether  of  sorrow  or  joy,  than  Uie  inaugu- 
ration of  a  monument  to  the  memory  of 
that  great  Prince  whose  wisdom  diminished 
the  care,  as  his  affection  enhanced  the 
happiness,  of  Her  who  was  at  once  his 
Monarch  and  his  wife.  The  Queen  did 
not  need  that  overwhelming  burst  of 
lojnltv  and  attachment  to  convince  Her 
how  dearly  prized  by  Her  loving  subjects 
is  that  personal  discharge  of  duties  which, 
though  not  essential  to  State  afiiftirsy  mate- 

rially conduce  to  the  chivalrous  affection 
entertained  for  the  person  of  the  Queen. 
Her  Majesty  now  approaches  the  comple- 
tion of  the  thirtieth  year  of  Her  reign, 
and  I  venture  to  think  that,  in  the  coursef 
of  the  thousand  vears  during  which  the 
long  line  of  Her  illustrious  ancestors  has 
wielded  the  sceptre  ^  now  swayed  b^  Her 
Majesty's  hands,  there  is  no  penod  o^ 
thirty  years  which  will  justly  challenge 
comparison  with  that  now  elapsed,  for  the 
attention  bestowed  on  the  welfare  and 
prosperity  of  the  people;  and  I  make 
bold  to  say  that  if  Parliament  in  its  wisdom 
should  fulfil  the  designs  of  the  Queen,  and 
apply  itself  in  that  spirit  of  moderation 
and  forbearance,  so  wisely  recommended 
to  us  from  the  Throne,  to  the  consideration 
of  the  measures  promised  in  Her  Majesty's 
Speech,  this  present  Session  will  take  no 
unwortiiy  place  among  its  predecessors  of 
this  happy  reign.  The  occasion  to  which 
I  have  referred — the  visits  to  Wolverhamp- 
ton— affords  a  convincing  testimony  that 
the  attention  which  the  Crown  and  the 
Legislature  have  given  to  the  condition  of 
the  people  has  borne  abundant  fruit  in 
dutiful  attachment  to  the  Queen,  and  in  a 
profound  appreciation  of  tiie  institutions 
under  which  it  is  our  blessing  to  Hve; 
and,  my  Lords,  no  one  can  doubt  that  in 
the  person  of  the  Queen  has  been  fulfilled 
the  prediction  of  the  Poet — 

'*  Entire  and  inre  that  monaroh'i  rale  nibitproTe 
Who  founds  her  greatness  on  her  suhjeots'  loTe.',* 

My  Lords,  I  beg  to  move  the  following 
humble  Address  to  Her  Majesty,  thanking 
Her  Majesty  for  Her  Most  Gracious  Speech 
from  the  Throne  :-— 


"  Wx,  Tour  Mijesty's  most  dutiful  and  loyal 
Subjects,  the  Lords  Spiritual  and  Temporal  in 
Parliament  assembled,  beg  leare  to  offer  our 
humble  Thanks  to  Tour  Hajestj  for  Tour  Ma* 
jestj's  graeious  Speech; 

'<  Wb  rejoice  to  learn  that  Tour  Majesty's  Re- 
lations with  Foreign  Powers  are  on  a  friendly  and 
satisfiioCory  Footing,  and  we  join  with  Tour  Ma- 
jesty in  the  Hope  that  the  Termination  of  the 
War  in  which  iViaM,  Austria,  and  Italy  hare 
been  engaged  may  tend  to  the  Establishment  of 
durable  Peace  in  Europe* 

*'  Wb  humbly  assure  Tour  Miyeety  that  we 
learn  with  Satis&ction  that  Tour  Migesty  has 
suggested  to  the  GoTcrnment  of  the  United  States 
a  Mode  by  which  Questions,  pending  between  the 
Two  Countries,  arising  out  of  the  Lite  CItU  War, 




Btr  llt^$djf  im 


nay  raoeiTe  an  Amioable  Solution,  and  whiob,  if 
met,  M  Your  Mijesij  tnisU  it  will  be,  in  a  oor- 
respondiog  Spirit,  will  remove  all  Gronnds  of 
pOMible  Miianderstaading^and  promote  Relatione 
of*oordial  Friendship. 

«<WiTR  Tonr  Mi^iett/,  wo  regret  the  Gontinn- 
anoe  of  the  War  between  Spain  and  the  Repnblioi 
of  Chm  and  Perut  and  we  lament  that  the  good 
OiBoes  o(  Tonr  Mi^eety's  GoTemment,  in  eon- 
jnnotion  with  that  of  The  Emperor  of  the  French, 
thoold  haTO  fiuled  to  haTO  eflboted  a  Reooncilia- 
tion«  It  will  be  a  Oanee  of  Satisfiustion  to  ne,  if 
either  by  Agreement  between  the  Partiei  them- 
■eWee,  or  bj  the  Mediation  of  any  other  friendlj 
Power,  Peace  should  be  restored. 

**  Wb  haTO  obserred  with  Regret  that  Disoon- 
lent  prevailing  in  some  ProTinoes  of  the  TwrkUh 
Empire  has  broken  out  in  aotnal  Insnrreetion  in 
OreU ;  bnt  we  learn  with  Satis&etion,  that  in 
oonmion  with  Tour  Majesty's  Allies,  The  Em- 
peror of  the  Fftnoh  and  The  Emperor  of  Rtutia, 
Tonr  Migesty  has  abstained  from  any  aotif  e  In- 
terlerenoe  in  those  internal  Distnrbanoes ;  and 
that  the  Eflbrts  of  Tonr  Miyesty  and  Tonr  Allies 
haTO  been  direoted  to  bring  about  suoh  improTod 
Relations  between  the  Porte  and  its  Christian 
Snbjeets  as  are  not  inoonsistent  with  the  iOTereIgn 
Rights  of  The  Snltan. 

''Wb  thank  Tonr  Migesty  ibr  informing  us 
that  the  protraeted  Negotiations  which  arose  out 
of  the  Acceptance  by  Prince  Charlet  of  AAen- 
MoUem  of  the  GoTcmment  of  the  Ikumbian  Prin^ 
cipalities  ha?e  been  happily  terminated  by  an 
Arrangement  to  which  the  Porte  has  gi?en  its 
ready  Adhesion,  and  which  has  been  sanctioned 
by  the  Concurrence  of  all  the  Powers,  Signataries 
ofthe  Treaty  of  1866. 

"  Wb  rejoice  to  be  informed  by  Tour  Higesty 
that  Resolutions  in  &T0ur  of  a  more  intimate 
Union  of  the  ProTinces  of  (kmada.  Nova  Scotia, 
and  New  Bruntwieh  have  been  passed  by  their 
sereral  Legislatures,  and  that  Delegates  duly  au- 
thorised, and  representing  all  Classes  of  Colonial 
Party  and  Opinion,  haTC  concurred  In  the  Con- 
ditions upon  which  suoh  an  Union  may  be  best 
eflfocted.  We  assure  Tour  Migesty  that  we  will 
give  our  most  careful  Attention  to  the  BiU  which, 
in  accordance  with  the  Wishes  of  those  Colonies^ 
Tour  Migesty  has  directed  to  be  submitted  to  us, 
and  which,  by  the  Consolidation  of  Colonial  In- 
terests and  Resouroes,  will,  we  trust,  gire  Strength 
to  the  sereral  Prorlnces  as  Members  of  the  same 
Empire,  and  animeted  by  Feelings  of  Loyalty  to 
the  same  Sorereign. 

«<  Wb  have  heard  with  deep  Sorrow  that  the 
Calamity  of  Famine  has  pressed  heaTily  on  Tonr 

Majesty's  Snlgeots  in  some  Parts  of  India,  We 
thank  Tour  Migesty  for  Informing  us  that  Instme* 
tions  were  Issued  to  Tour  Biigesty's  GoTcmment 
in  that  Country  to  make  the  utmost  Exertions  to 
mitigate  the  Distreu  which  prevailed  during  the 
Autumn  of  last  Tear ;  and  we  rejoice  that  tho 
Blessing  of  an  abundant  Hanrest  has  sinoe  that 
Time  materially  impro?ed  the  Condition  of  tho 
suflbring  Districts. 

**  Wb  haTO  obserred  with  deep  Conoem  that 
the  perseTcring  Efforts  and  unscrupulous  Asser- 
tions of  treasonable  Conspirators  abroad  haTC, 
during  the  last  Autumn,  excited  the  Hopes  of  some 
disalbcted  Persons  in  Ireland,  and  the  Apprehen. 
sions  of  the  loyal  Population ;  but  we  learn  with 
the  greatest  Satisfiustion  that  the  firm  yet  tempe- 
rate Exeroise  of  the  Powers  entrusted  to  tbo 
ExecutiTc,  and  the  Hostility  manifosted  against 
the  Conspiracy  by  Men  of  all  Classes  and  Creeds, 
haTC  greatly  tended  to  restore  Public  Confidence, 
and  rendered  hopeless  any  Attempt  to  disturb  tho 
general  Tranquillity.  With  Tour  Majesty,  wo 
consequently  trust  that  we  may  be  enabled  to 
dispense  with  the  Continuanoe  of  any  exceptional 
Legislation  for  that  Part  of  Tour  Migesty's 

**  With  Tour  Majesty  we  join  in  acknowledging, 
with  deep  Thankfolness  to  Almighty  God,  the 
great  Decrease  which  has  taken  place  In  the 
Cholers,  and  in  the  Pestilence  which  has  attacked 
our  Cattle ;  we  regret  that  the  continued  Preva* 
lence  of  the  latter  In  some  Foreign  Countries^  and 
its  ooeaslonal  Re-appearance  in  this,  will  still 
render  necessary  some  speeial  Measnrss  of  Pre- 
cautkm ;  but  wo  trust  that  the  Visitation  of  the 
former  will  add  to  increased  Attention  to  those 
Sanitary  Measures  which  Experience  has  shown 
to  be  its  best  PrcTcnUTe. 

^Wb  thank  Tour  Majesty  for  ioformiog  us 
that,  estimating  as  of  the  highest  Importance  an 
adequate  Supply  of  pure  and  wholesome  Water, 
Tonr  Migesty  has  direoted  the  Issue  of  a  Commis- 
sion to  Inquire  Into  the  best  Means  of  permanently 
securing  such  a  Supply  for  the  Metropolis,  and 
for  the  principal  Towns  In  densely-peopled  Districts 
of  the  Kingdom. 

"Wb  oonfey  to  Tour  Migesty  our  humble  Thanks 
for  informing  us,  that  our  Attention  will  again  be 
called  to  the  State  of  the  Reprasentation  of  the 
People  in  Parliament ;  and,  with  Tour  Majesty, 
we  trust  that  our  Deliberations,  conducted  in  a 
Spirit  of  Moderation  and  mutual  Forbearance* 
may  lead  to  the  Adoption  of  Measures  which, 
without  unduly  disturbing  the  Balance  of  Poll- 
tioal  Power,  shall  freely  extend  the  Electi?*  Fkaa. 


Str  Mo9i 

{Fbbrvabt  .%  1867] 

Oraciout  Speech.         18 

**  Wb  humbly  thank  Your  Msjeslj  fisr  infonning 
v»  that  the  frequent  Oocorrenoeof  Disagreements 
between  Emplojrera  of  Labour  and  their  Work- 
men, oannog  muoh  private  Suffering  and  publio 
Loss,  and  oooasionaUj  leading,  as  is  alleged,  to 
Aots  of  Outrage  and  Violenoe,  has  induoed  Tour 
Majesty  to  Issue  a  Commission  to  inquire  into  and 
report  upon  the  Organisation  of  Trades  Unions 
and  other  Associations,  whether  of  WorkoMn  or 
Emplojers,  with  Power  to  suggest  anj  Improve- 
ment of  the  Law  for  their  mutual  Benefit.  We 
assure  Tour  Majesty  that  any  Parliamentary 
Powers  whioh  may  be  necessary  for  making  that 
Inquiry  eflbctiTO  will  be  readily  gif  en  by  us. 

^Wb  convey  to  Tour  Mijesty  our  humble  Thanks 
for  baring  directed  Bills  to  be  laid  before  us  for 
the  Extension  of  the  beneficial  Prorisions  of  the 
Factory  Aots  to  other  Trades  specially  reported 
on  by  the  Royal  Commission  on  the  Employment 
of  Children,  and  for  the  better  Regulation,  ao- 
cording  to  the  Principle  of  those  Acts,  of  Work- 
shops where  Women  and  Children  are  largely 

"  Wb  thank  Tour  Migesty  for  informing  us  that 
the  Condition  of  the  Mercantile  Marine  has  at- 
tracted the  serious  Attention  of  Tour  Blajesty, 
and  that  Measures  will  be  submitted  to  us  with  a 
▼lew  to  increase  the  Efficiency  of  that  important 

"Wb  learn  with  Satisfaction  that  Relaxations 
hsTC  been  lately  introduced  into  the  Nayigation 
Laws  o{ France  ;  that  Tour  Majesty  has  expressed 
to  The  Emperor  of  the  French  Tour  Readiness 
to  submit  to  Parliament  a  Proposal  for  the  Ex- 
tinction, on  equitable  Terms,  of  the  Exemptions 
from  local  Charges  on  Shipping  which  are  still 
eigoyed  by  a  limited  Number  of  Indifiduals  in 
BritUh  Ports;  and  that  llis  Imperial  Majesty 
has,  in  anticipation  of  this  Step,  already  admitted 
SriHsh  Ships  to  the  Advantage  of  the  new  Law. 
We  will  giro  our  careful  Attention  to  the  Bill 
upon  this  Subject  which  Tour  Majesty  has  directed 
to  be  forthwith  laid  before  us; 

«<  Wb  humbly  assure  Tour  Blajesty  that  we  will 
give  our  most  serioua  Consideration  to  the  Bill 
which  is  to  be  submitted  to  us  for  making  better 
ProTision  fbr  the  Arrangement  of  the  Af&drs  of 
Railway  Companies  which  are  unable  to  meet 
their  Engagements ;  as  well  as  to  any  Measures 
for  improring  the  Management  of  sick  and  other 
Poor  in  the  Metropolis,  and  for  a  Re«distribution 
of  some  of  the  Charges  for  Relief  therein. 

"  OuB  most  careful  Attention  will  be  given  to 
the  Measures  for  the  Amendment  of  the  Law  of 
Baokruptoyy  and  tho  Consolidatioii  of  the  Courts 

of  Probate  and  Divorce  and  Admiral^ ;  also  to 
the  Means  of  disposing,  with  greater  Despatch 
and  Frequency,  of  the  increasing  Business  in  the 
Superior  Courts  of  Conunon  Law  and  at  the 

'*  Wb  humbly  thank  Tour  Majesty  fiyr  informing 
us  that  the  Relations  between  Landlord  and 
Tenant  in  IreUind  have  engaged  the  anxious 
Attention  of  Tour  Majesty,  and  that  a  Bill  will 
be  laid  before  us,  which,  without  interfering  with 
the  Rights  of  Property,  will  offer  direct  Encou- 
ragement to  Occupiers  of  Land  to  improve  their 
Holdings,  and  provide  a  umple  Mode  of  obtaining 
Compensation  for  permanent  Improvements. 

"  With  Tour  Majesty,  we  pray  that  our  La- 
bours may,  under  the  Blessing  of  Providence, 
conduce  to  the  Prosperity  of  the  Country  and 
the  Happiness  of  Tour  People." 

LoBD  DELIMEBE:  My  Lords,  in 
rising  to  second  this  Address,  I  must  ren- 
tore,  in  the  first  place,  to  ask  for  your 
Lordships'  indulgence,  which  I  am  satia&ed 
was  never  yet  refused.  I  have  been  some 
time  a  Member  of  your  Lordships'  House, 
but  I  have  neyer  before  yentured  to  address 
you ;  and  though  I  cannot  say  that  I  am  a 
young  Member  in  any  sense  of  the  word, 
I  am  sure  that,  whateyer  indulgence  your 
Lordships  would  extend  to  the  youngest 
Member  of  your  House  will  not  be  with- 
held fh>m  me.  I  find  myself  in  a  position 
of  no  ordinary  difficulty.  I  find  myself 
like  a  man  placed  before  an  oyerwhelming 
feast  who,  with  the  best  intentions,  **  hath 
not  stomach  for  it  all."  The  bill  of  fare 
is  so  large,  that  I  can  only  yenture  to 
select  a  lew  dishes;  or  to  speak  more 
seriously,  there  are  matters  so  yarious, 
so  yast,  and  of  such  great  and  para* 
mount  importance  contained  in  the  Queen's 
Speech,  that  eyen  if  I  were  disposed  to 
trespass  on  your  Lordships'  time  at  any 
length — which  I  am  not — it  would  require 
more  yast  and  yaried  knowledge  than  I 
haye  any  claim  to,  to  deal  with  them  with 
that  justice  which  many  of  the  subjects 

With  regard  to  the  first  paragraph,  inti- 
mating the  existence  of  cordial  relations 
with  all  foreign  Powers,  the  assurance  it 
conyeys,  although  of  the  old  stereotyped 
character,  has,  under  present  ciroumstanoes, 
far  more  than  its  usual  significance,  and 
will  be  receiyed  generally,  I  am  sure,  in  a 
spirit  of  yery  deep  and  yery  earnest  thank- 
fulness. When  we  look  Imck  on  the  last 
year — ^wben  we  consider  the  eiztnM>rdinar7 




Sir  Mjfe%iji  fm 


number  of  erentB  crowded  within  that 
brief  space— how  kingdoms  have  been  over- 
thrown,  djnaBties  changed,  battles  waged 
and  won,  Enrope  dismembered  and  re- 
oonsfmotedy  we  can  scarcely  imagine  that 
all  these  things,  having  taken  place  within 
BO  small  a  space— almost  within  a  few 
weeks^shoold  have  yet  assumed  a  charac- 
ter of  such  permanent  durability  as  to 
promise  to  be  lasting  institutions,  and 
afford  a  reasonable  hope  that  the  result  of 
all  these  commotions  would  be  to  secure 
the  peace  of  Europe.  I  fervently  hope  it 
may  be  so. 

The  next  paragraph  in  the  Speech  deals 
with  the  questions  pending  between  this 
country  and  the  Government  of  the 
United  States ;  and  I  am  sure  your  Lord- 
ships will  hear  with  satisfaction  that  it 
is  likely  that  the  differences  which  have 
existed  between  the  two  Governments  may 
soon  be  amicably  settled  by  arbitration. 
The  noble  Lord  at  the  head  of  Foreign 
Af^rs  deserves  great  credit  for  the  course 
he  has  taken  on  this  subject.  It  requires 
more  courage  to  pursue  a  course  of  concilia- 
tion, than  one  of  irritation  and  resistance, 
and  I  hope  the  wisdom  of  such  a  course  will 
be  generally  acknowledged,  and  that  it  will 
lay  the  foundation  of  lasting  ftiendly  rela- 
tions between  the  two  countries. 

Your  Lordships  will  be  sorry  to  hear 
that  the  war  between  Spain  and  the 
Bepublics  of  Chile  and  Peru  still  con- 
tinues ;  but  your  Lordships  will  bo  glad 
to  hear  that  there  is  a  fair  prospect  of 
bringing  about  improved  relations  between 
Turkey  and  its  Cretan  subjects.  With 
respect  to  the  proposed  Confederation  of 
the  British  Provinces  in  North  America, 
I  feel  that  the  wel&re  and  well-being  of 
that  country  can  only  be  considered  as 
second  to  our  own.  The  cheerfulness  with 
which  necessarily  imposed  self-sacrifices 
have  been  borne,  the  resolute  attitude  op- 
posed to  the  Fenian  insurrection,  and  the 
universal  loyalty  invariably  displayed  to- 
wards the  British  Crown,  must  always 
command  our  highest  respect  and  conside- 
ration for  the  Canadian  people,  and  render 
it  a  matter  of  pleasure  as  well  as  policy 
to  draw  as  closely  as  possible  tlie  bonds 
of  union  between  us.  I  am  sure,  also, 
that  your  Lordships  will  be  glad  to  hear 
that  Her  Majesty  s  Government  do  not 
consider  it  necessary  to  continue  the  sus- 
pension of  the  Habeas  Corpus  Act,  and 
that  is  one  of  the  best  evidences  of  the 
wisdom  of  the  course  which  has  been 
pursued  by  the  Executive.    We  are  eJl  of 

Lord  IMatMr^ 

us  wilHng  to  bear  testimony  to  the  ad- 
mirable mixture  of  firmness  and  concilia- 
tion which  characterized  the  Administration 
of  the  noble  Earl  opposite  (the  Earl  of 
Eimberley),  and  I  hope  the  noble  Lord 
now  at  the  head  of  affaira  in  Ireland  (the 
Marquess  of  Aberoom)  will  prove  himself 
no  unworthy  successor ;  and  I  trust  that, 
without  having  to  recor  to  stringent  mea-« 
sures,  we  may  see  the  end  of  this  deplor- 
able, but  happily  unsncoessful,  attempt  of 
a  party  of  misguided  men  to  subvert  all 
lawful  authority  in  Ireland.  In  connectioa 
with  this  I  may  allude  to  another  topic  ia 
another  part  of  the  Speech,  but  which  is 
so  closely  interwoven  with  it  that  one  is 
in  fact  a  continuance,  if  not  an  equal  part 
and  parcel  of  the  other — ^I  mean  that 
alluding  to  the  relations  between  Landlord 
and  Tenant.    There  are  two  much-vexed 
questions  always  supposed  to  lie  at  the  root 
of  all  Irish  grievances — the  Established 
Church,  and  the  land  system  as  applied 
in  Ireland.    The  first  of  these  we  ar^ 
not   now   called   upon    to    discuss,   bat 
the  .other  is  a  question    of  great  im- 
portance, which  concerns  the  whole  ooun* 
try  — *  the  owner  of  land,  the  occupier 
of  land,  the  Boman  Catholic  priest,  and 
the  Protestant  clergyman.  It  affects  every 
one,  and  there  can  be  no  doubt  that  it  is 
a  matter  of  very  great  difficulty  and  of 
very  great  importance.    Some  are  of  opi- 
nion that  legislation  is  necessary;   but 
othen  say  that  legislation  would  only  be 
an  interference  between  capital  and  labour, 
and  that  it  must  be  left  between  the  man 
who  lets  the  land  and  the  man  who  holds 
it;  that  it  must  be  left  to  the  natural 
course  of  things  to  be  set  right.    I  am 
sorry  to  say  the  natural  course  of  things 
has  been  in  operation  for  a  considerable 
length  of  time,  and  it  has  not  done  much 
for  it  yet.     I  only  mention  this  to  show 
the  value  of  what  I  trust  will  be  the 
action  of  Parliament  upon  the  subject.     I 
am  glad  that  Her  Majesty's  Government 
have  taken  the    question  in  hand,    and 
I  trust  it  will  be   satisfactorily  settled 
by  a  Government  at  the  head  of  which 
is  my  noble  Friend,  himself  an  Irish  pro- 
prietor;   and  I  may  be  allowed  to  say 
before  his  face  it  is  an  additional  qualifi- 
cation for  settling  the  question  that  his 
whole  life  has  been  an  unvarying  testi- 
mony of  his  practical  anxiety  for  &e  wel* 
fare  of  all  whom  Providence  has  placed 
under  him.    We  do  not  want  securities 
for  men  who  have  neither  capital  nor  en- 
terprize;  but  we  do  want  security  that 



(Vbbkva&t  5|  1867) 

ffraetoui  Spuch.         M 

the  man  who  ham  both,  and  who  roends 
bfldi  upon  the  land 'that  he  falU^  ahonld 
Bot  be  d^riTed  of  the  iraita  of  hia  in- 
daitiy,  or  that  the  landlord  afa^nld  reap 
the  whole  of  the  adyantagea  whioh  hia 
antaprine  and  indnatry  haye  conferred 
apon  the  land.  If  Her  Majeaty'a  Gorem* 
meat  can  do  thia,  they  will  do  more  to 
settle  Uie  agitation  in  Irehmd,  and  to  re- 
sfeore  peace  and  tranquillity  to  the  oonn- 
try,  than  by  the  moat  atringent  meaaore 
of  ooeraon  which  it  ia  poasiUe  to  propoee, 
8ach  meaanrea  are  bat  the  irritating, 
tfaongh  alaa  neoeanry,  remediea  that  attack 
the  manileat  aymptoma  of  the  diaeaae ; 
the  other  wonld  go  far  towards  laying  the 
aze  to  the  root  of  the  evil  itself. 

My  Lordsy  the  next  pointa  to  which  I  wish 
to  call  yonr  Lordahipa'  attention  are  the 
easea  of  tiie  oholera  and  the  cattle  plague. 
I  am  happy  to  learn  that  the  former  dia- 
eaae iq>pear8  to  be  expiring ;  but  there  are 
Bigna  that  the   cattle  plague  may  again 
beak  out.      My  Lords,  I   come  from  a 
part  of  the  country  which,  unhappily,  suf- 
fered oonaiderably  from  ita  rayagea,  and  I 
belieye  that  our  aad  experience  haa  left  us 
80  entirely  in  the  dark  as  to  any  means  of 
pieyention  or  cure,  that  if  it  should  unhap- 
pily break  out  again,  there  are  no  better 
meana  to  atop  ita  rayagea  than  thoae  that 
were  before  reaorted  to-— that  is,  to  stamp 
oat  the  diaease  by  slaughtering  the  animals 
tiiat  are  infected.  Then  as  to  sanitary  mea- 
iorea,  nothing  can  be  better  than  an  ade- 
quate aapply  of  pure  and  wholeaome  water, 
respecting  whidi  Her  Majesty's  Qoyem- 
ment  announce  they  are  about  to  issue  a 
Commiaaion  of  Inquiry  eapeoially  with  ro- 
gard  to  the  metropolis.    If  this  can  be 
effected,  it  will  be  the  best  preseryatiye 
that  can  be  deyised  against  cholera.    In 
addition  to  this,  there  are  several  other 
measoree  of  administration  whioh  are  pro- 
posed— a  meaaure  for  making  better  pro- 
vision for  the  arrangement  of  the  affairs 
of  railways,  for  improving  tiie  manage- 
ment of  the  sick  and  other  poor  in  the 
metropolia,  and  also  varioua  legal  reforms 
and  improyementa  to  whioh  I  have  no 
doubt  your  Lordahipa'  attention  will  in 
due  tiuM  be  called. 

There  are  one  or  two  other  important 
subjeeta  to  which  I  wish  to  flJlnde  be- 
fore^ I  ait  down.  The  first  ia  the  or- 
ganixation  of  capital  and  labour.  I  be- 
lieve that  l^fi^ation  can  do  little  in 
thia  matter  except  by  laying  down  sound 
economical  principlea  and  protecting  every 
man  in  tiie  freedom  of.  hia  own  industry. 

I  must  Bay  this  fcr  the  working  men  of 
the  kingdom,  my  Lords,  that  I  have  al- 
waya  found  them  amenable  to  reaaon.  I 
have  had,  in  one  way  or  another,  a  good 
deal  to  do  with  working  men,  and  I  have 
always  found  that  they  were  open  to 
reaaon.  But,  my  Lords,  I  cannot  say  aa 
much  for  the  men  who  lead  and  guide 
them ;  men  with  ready  tonguea  and  mia- 
chievoua  brains,  anxioua  at  any  price  to 
secure  their  own  momentary  importance, 
and  careless  of  the  dangera  and  difficultiea 
into  which  they  are  leading  those  who  place 
only  too  implicit  confidence  in  tbem.  I  am 
willing  to  admit  that  tradea  unions  were,  in 
their  origin,  perfectly  legal,  and  might  even 
in  parts  of  their  operation  be  beneficial. 
So  long  as  the  capitalists  of  this  country 
were  making  large  profita,  it  waa  reason- 
able that  a  portion  of  thoae  profita  should 
be  transferred  to  labour,  in  order  to  ame- 
liorate their  condition  and  improve  their 
wages.  But,  then,  when  profits  had  reached 
their  minimum,  when  the  trade  of  the 
country  was  in  a  state  of  collapse,  is  it 
reaaonable  that  the  rate  of  wagea  ahould 
still  be  insisted  on  being  kept  up  to  the 
same  high  standard  ?  My  lK>rds,  I  want 
the  eyes  of  the  working  men  to  be  opened 
to  their  own  suioidal  policy.  They  are 
killing  the  goose  that  laid  the  golden  egga. 
The  tradea  unions  may  decide  that  the 
working  man  shall  not  take  less  than  a 
given  rate  of  wages;  but  they  cannot 
compel  the  employer  to  give  those  wages. 

^  One  man  may  bring  a  hone  unto  the  brink, 
Bat  flye-and-twentf  cannot  make  him  drink." 

It  has  been  well  said  that  capital  ia  a  coy 
nymph;  and  that  if  she  be  too  roughly 
wooed  she  is  apt  to  fly  away.  My  Lords,  are 
there  not  signs  that  she  is  preparing  to  fly 
away?  Carpenters'  work  is  now,  to  a 
large  extent,  imported  from  abroad ;  the 
frames  of  doors  and  windows  are  now  pre- 
pared abroad  and  imported  into  this  coun« 
tnr.  It  is  important,  then,  to  consider 
what,  under  these  circumstances,  ought  to 
be  done.  With  respect  to  the  state  of 
trade  at  home,  I  can  speak  for  myself.  I 
have  had  a  good  deal  of  work  done  within 
the  last  two  or  three  years ;  and  last  year 
I  was  told  by  a  master  builder,  whom  I 
employed,  *'  My  Lord,  if  I  had  this  work 
to  undertake  again  I  would  not  make  the 
same  terms  with  your  Lordship  that  I 
have  done;  I  wonld  charge  one-third 
more  in  price,  and  I  would  not  enter  into 
any  contract  as  to  the  time  when  it  should 
be  done."  How  singular  is  the  conduct 
of  the  London  shipwrights.    Think  for  a 






moment  what  that  oondnct  is.    The  men 
have  struck  for  7«.  a  day;  the^  refnse  to 
work  for  6$,  6J.  a  day ;  that  is,  for  over 
£100  a  year — a  hirger  income  than  thai 
which  is  enjoyed  hy  many  Goyemment 
clerks  and  poor  curates.    But  that  is  not 
all.    They  are  williog,  they  say,  to  take 
6«.  6d,  a  day,  if  an  excuse  can  he  made  for 
them,  and  it  can  he  made  to  appear  that 
they  are  getting  7«.  a  day,  hecause  under 
no  emergency  is  it  to  be  supposed  that 
their  rate  of  wages  is  to  be  lowered.  This, 
then,  is  the  state  of  things.    The  men 
have  refused  6$,  6d. ;  that  is  to  say,  they 
have  refused  an  income  of  more  than  £100 
a  year.    Their  families  are  thrown  upon 
the  parish,  and  the  wealthy  are  called 
upon  to  subscribe  for  them,  and  out  of  the 
charity  of  the  people  of  England  these 
destitute  people  are  to  be  supported  who 
have  refused  6«.  Sd.  a  day ;  and  more  than 
that,  the  parish  rates  will  be  raised  on 
people  who  earn  5s,  a  day  to  compel  them 
to  support  men  who  refuse  to  work  for 
6«.   6d.    One  thing  more.     The  trades 
unions,  when  they  go  in  for  an  increase  of 
wages,  promise  an  immediate  gain  to  their 
members.    Eyerybody  can  understand  the 
advantage  of  an  increase  of  wages.      But 
when  they  go  fSorther,  when  they  interfere 
not  only  for  the  purpose  of  raising  the 
rate  of  wages,  but  when  they  interfere 
with  the  freedom  of  labour  of  each  other ; 
when  they  insist  that  a  man  shall  not  be 
allowed  to  use  those  abilities  which  God 
has  giyen  him — that  he  shall  not  earn  as 
much  as  he  can  by  the  labour  of  his  hands 
for  the  support  of  his  family,  but  insist 
on  bringing  all  down  to  one  low  level,  so 
that  the  skilful  workman  shall  not  do 
more  than  the  most  ignorant  and  idle — if 
this  is  to  be  allowed  to  take  place,  then, 
my  Lords,  I  do  not  think  I  use  too  strong 
words  when  I   say  that  it  is   absolute 
wickedness.    One  word  more,  my  Lords, 
and  I  have  done  with  the  trades  unions. 
In  a  speech  deliyered  at  Birmingham  in 
1860,  uie  hon.  Member  for  Birmingham 
says  that — 

"  Working  msn  haTS  anooiations,  trade  aoeie- 
iies,  ofganiiations,  and  I  want  to  ask  them  why 
it  if  that  all  theae  Tarioiis  organiiationa  through- 
out the  ooantry  eonld  not  be  made  use  of  for  the 
purpoee  of  obtaining  their  political  rights/' 

Now,  my  Lords,  after  all  that  we  have 
heard  and  seen  of  the  way  in  which 
trades  unions  numage  their  own  affairs 
-~  how  carefully  -they  treat  the  tick- 
lish relations  of  capital  and  labour — with 
what  caution  and  forethought  they  treat 

Zord  Dtihrnwe 

the  question  of  labour  so  as  not  to  preaa 
too  hardly  upon  the  interests  of  the  em- 
ployers—-how   tender   they  are  bf  the 
workman's  wages— I  ask,  are  they  the 
people  whom,  in  the  event  of  their  having 
a  Beform  Bill,  with  a  considerable  exten* 
sion  of  the  fnmchise— are  they  the  people 
whom,  in  such  an  eventi  you  would  wish 
to  see  possessed  of  the  larger  portion  of 
the  political  power  of  this  country  ?    A 
question  has  been  raised  whether  there 
is  to  be  a  Beform  Bill  or  not ;  but  the 
question  is  now  answered,  and  there  is  to 
be  a  Beform  Bill.    It  must  be  admitted 
that  the  present  time  is  unquestionably 
favourable  for  its  consideration.    There 
is  fortunately  no  suffering  in  the  country. 
The  commercial  panio  has  passed  away. 
It  has  pleased  Qod  that  there  should  be 
no  disturbance  at  home  or  abroad,  men's 
minds  are  full  of  the  subject.    The  people 
of  England  have  undoubtedly  spoken  tneir 
opinions  very  decidedly  on  the  subjeot. 
It  can  no  longer  be  said  that  there  is  no 
craving  for  Beform.      There  are   large 
numbm  of  the  working  classes  whoia 
every  man  in  England  would  be  glad  to 
see  admitted  to  the  franchise.    I  believe 
that  if  you  were  to  poll  all  England,  a 
very  small  percentage  of  the  population 
would  be  found  to  say  that  it  would  be 
better  to  have  no  Beform.    Another  ques* 
tion  is,  what  is  the  Beform  Bill  to  be  ? 
and  here  there  may  be  some  difficulty 
about  the  matter.    If  the  past  has  not 
decided  what  a  Beform  Bill  should  be,  it 
has  clearly  pointed  out  that  which  it  ought 
not  to  be ;  for  it  has  been  pretty  well  es- 
tablished that  the  country  will  not  have  a 
hasty  and  ill-considered  and  incomplete 
Beform  Bill,  nor  one  that  will  not  set  the 
question  at  rest  for  some  time.     These  are 
tiie  qualities  that  I  hope  to  see  developed ; 
but,  above  all  things,  it  must  be  such  a 
Bill  that  while  it  shall  not  dispose  alto- 
gether of  the  question,  shall  set  it  at  rest 
for   a    considerable   time.     I   think,   if 
I   may  use    such    a   phrase,  that  it  is 
simple  nonsense  to  be  talking  of  finality 
in  reference  to  Beform,  you  might  as 
well  talk  of  finality  in  reference  to  steam 
or  gas ;  for  in  an  age  of  progress  such  as 
this  in  which  we  live  there  cannot  be  such 
finality.  What  was  sufficient  for  our  fathers 
was  not  enough  for  us.  What  will  satisfy  us 
will  probably  not  do  for  those  who  shall 
come  after  us.    Whether  it  be  a  Libe- 
ral or  a  Conservative  Government,  if  it 
is  to  stand,  it  cannot  stand  still ;  its  pro- 
gress must  be  upward  and  onward,  and 



(FsBiKtTiBT  5, 1867)  OrariouB  Speech. 


it«  motto  most  be  SxeMor.  The  fact  Ib 
that  the  prograss  of  ednoation  and  the 
roread  of  knowledge — and  especially  of 
the  knowledge  of  political  economy— has 
brought  about  this,  that,  whether  for  good 
or  for  eyil,  the  people  of  this  country  will 
to  a  great  extent  goyem  themselres.  The 
Government  has  not  power  to  control  this 
fading,  but  it  has  the  power  of  direction  ; 
and  tUs  power  is  that  which  must  chiefly 
be  exeroised.  The  wheel  will  no  dotlbt 
go  round  and  the  stream  flow  on,  and  the 
nation  at  large  must  move  on  with  it.  The 
object  of  a  good  GK>Temment  must,  under 
those  circumstances,  be  to  direct  the  wheel 
into  the  right  groove,  and  to  turn  the 
stream  into  its  proper  channel,  so  that  it 
shall  be  a  fertilizing  current  instead  of  a 
devastating  flood.  A  Beform  Bill  framed 
in  that  spirit  will,  I  hope,  be  introduced 
by  Her  Majesty's  Ministers ;  and  a  Bill  so 
fhtmed  wiU,  I  have  no  doubt,  recommend 
itself  to  the  consideration  of  all  classes  of 
the  people.  When  I  mention  all  classes,  I 
must  except  those  who,  under  the  name  of 
Beform,  would  produce  revolution,  and 
who,  instead  of  tiie  adequate  representa- 
tion of  all  classes,  would  prefer  to  see 
established  the  dominant  superiority  of 
one  class.  I  would  say  to  such  persons, 
''  Show  yourselves  in  your  true  colours; 
do  jou  want  a  true  representation  of  the 
varied  feelings  and  interests  of  this  coun- 
try by  honest,  earnest  men,  convinced  of 
the  truth  of  the  principles  they  advocate, 
or  do  you  wish  that  the  representative 
body  of  this  kingdom  should  be  reduced 
into  a  mere  transcript  of  the  popular  feel- 
ing of  the  day,  and,  indeed,  of  tiie  feeling 
of  the  most  suffering,  and,  therefore,  the 
most  impressionable,  part  of  the  people  of 
the  kingdom?"  In  making  these  remarks, 
I  must  not  be  understood  as  contending 
that  they  Aimish  an  argument  against  all 
Reform.  On  the  contrary,  there  is  no 
Member  of  your  Lordships'  House  more 
sincerely  convinced  than  I  am  of  the  ab- 
solute necessity  of  a  considerable  exten- 
sion of  the  franchise  as  well  as  a  re-distri- 
bution of  seats.  The  considerations  to 
which  I  refer  were  simply  an  argument  in 
favour  of  great  caution  in  de&ngwith 
our  system  of  representation,  as  made  up 
of  parts  which,  althou(^  they  may  each  of 
them  be  open  to  objection  and  capable  of 
amendment,  have  yet  worked  well  together, 
and  made  up  a  useful  and  harmonious 
whole.  It  is  an  argument  in  favour  of  a 
judicious,  cautious,  and  temperate  Beform ; 
of  a  hesitation  neither  cowardly  nor  un- 

wise over  every  footstep  before  it  is  defl-> 
nitively  planted  on  that  path  where  on- 
ward progress,  be  it  to  safety  or  to  ruin,  is 
fearfully  easy— but  return  is  impossible. 

My  Lords,  I  have  now  done;  and 
I  have  only  to  thank  your  Lordships 
for  the  patience  with  which  you  have 
listened  to  me.  But  I  will  just  add  that 
the  year  that  has  passed  has  been  one 
of  suffering  and  of  sorrow,  owing  to  the 
prevalence  of  pestilence  and  other  causes, 
yet  during  its  course  we  have  been  spared 
the  miseries  of  war;  and  I  hope  that,  so 
fkr  as  we  can  judge,  there  is  a  better  pros- 
pect before  us  for  the  future.  And  it  is  in 
accordance  with  this  promise  that  the  Go- 
vernment are  about  to  propose  what  I 
think,  without  resorting  to  enthusiastic 
language,  may  be  described  as  a  very  noble 
catalogue  of  measures  which  are  likely  to 
produce  great  good  to  the  country ;  and  it 
is  now  to  the  energy  and  sagacity  of  your 
Lordships'  and  of  the  other  House  of  Par- 
liament, and  also  to  your  courtesy  and  for- 
bearance, that  we  must  look  for  the  hope 
of  realizing  a  plenteous  harvest  from  this 
''fEur  promise  of  the  opening  year."  My 
Lords,  in  conclusion,  I  beg  to  second  the 
Address  which  has  just  been  moved  by  my 

noble  Friend.     [See  Page  14.] 

£abl  BUSSELL:  My  Lords,  I  am 
happy  to  say  with  respect  to  the  Address, 
which  has  been  moved  and  seconded  in  a 
manner  so  fair  and  so  temperate,  that  I 
can  see  no  reason  why  we  on  this  side  of 
the  House  should  offer  to  it  any  objection. 
But,  with  regard  to  the  Speech  from  the 
Throne,  I  think  it  necessary  to  make  a 
few  observations.  No  one  can  complain 
either  of  the  brevity  of  that  Speech,  or  of 
want  of  variety  in  the  topics  with  which 
it  deals.  I  shall  touch  merely  upon  those 
points  which  I  deem  to  be  of  the  greatest 
interest  and  importance.  The  first  which 
invites  attention  is  the  late  war  in  Europe. 
In  dealing  with  that  question  I  would 
rather  refer  to  a  sentence  which  occurred 
in  the  Speech  of  Her  Majesty  at  the  end 
of  last  Session,  than  comment  upon  the 
very  short  paragraph  in  the  Speech  before 
us.  At  the  close  of  last  Session  Her  Ma- 
jesty was  pleased  to  declare-^ 

"  Her  Majert/  cannot  hare  been  an  indiflbrent 
speotator  of  oyente  which  hare  seriously  aflbcted 
the  positions  of  So?ereigns  and  Prinoes  with  whom 
Her  Mi^eety  is  oonneoted  bj  the  closest  ties  of 
relationship  and  fiiendship ;  but  Her  Jdajestj  has 
not  deemed  it  expedient  to  take  part  in  a  contest 
in  which  neither  the  honour  of  Her  Crown  nor 
the  interest  of  Her  people  demuided  aa^  aeUTC 
intonrentioA  oa  Her  part," 




Eer  Mfafetiff  M 

I  entifdj  agree  with  that  vTopoaiion.  It 
appears  to  me  to  state  fully  and  Batisflus- 
ionly  the  reason  why  Her  Majesty's  GK>- 
Yemment  did  not  interfere  in  the  war  be- 
tween Prossia  and  Austria.  In  the  Speech 
read.  Her  Majesty  is  made  to  say— 

"  I  hope  that  tbo  Termioation  of  the  War  in 
wUoh  ProMia,  Anitria,  and  Italy  hare  been  en- 
ftged  may  lead  to  the  Establiihment  of  a  durable 
reaoe  in  Europe." 

My  Lords,  we  all  hope  the  same;  but 
although  I,  for  one,  sincerely  hope  that 
will  be  the  case,  this  is  a  point  on  which, 
I  am  sorry  to  say,  I  am  not  sanguine. 
We  cannot  help  seeing  that  ever  since  the 
aggression  upon  Denmark,  two  years  ago, 
in  opposition  to  all  treaties  and  all  faith 
hitherto  observed  with  respect  to  treaties, 
a  spirit  of  aggression  has  prevailed,  or 
seemed  to  prevail,  in  Europe,  especially  in 
the  case  of  one  Power,  which  may  in  the 
future  lead  to  great  calamities.  The  sub- 
ject is  one,  therefore,  with  regard  to  which 
it  is  impossible  not  to  have  some  appre- 
hension. I  trust  it  wiU  not  be  so,  but  it 
is  impossible  to  ignore  the  possibility  of 
such  a  catastrophe  ;  still  more,  if  we  refer 
to  rumours  afloat  on  the  subject.  The 
next  topic  which  is  referred  to  in  the 
Boyal  Speech  is  that  with  regard  to  the 
United  States— 

"  I  haye  raggetted  to  the  GoTemment  of  the 
United  States  a  Mode  by  which  Qaeetions  pending 
between  the  Two  Conntriee  arising  out  of  the  late 
Ciyil  War  may  receive  amicable  Solution,  and 
which,  if  met,  at  I  trust  it  will  be,  in  a  corre- 
ipondlng  Spirit,  will  remove  all  Grounds  of  pos- 
sible Misunderstanding,  and  promote  Relations 
of  cordial  Friendship." 

I  believe  it  is  not  quite  the  usual  and 
grammatical  construction  of  a  sentence  to 
talk  about  meeting  a  mode ;  but  with  re- 
gard to  the  substance  of  the  paragraph,  I 
see  no  reason  why,  because  I,  when  at  the 
head  of  the  Foreign  Office,  did  not  accept 
certain  propositions  which  were  made  to 
me,  the  noble  Lord  now  at  the  head  of 
that  Department  should  not  oome  to  a 
different  conclusion.  I,  myself,  in  dealing 
with  questions  relating  to  America — as, 
for  instance,  in  the  case  of  the  Bay  Islands 
— took  a  course  more  in  conformity  with 
the  views  of  the  American  Qovemment 
than  my  predecessors  in  Office  had  deemed 
it  their  duty  to  pursue.  The  honour  of 
the  oountry  is  no^  I  assume,  compromised 
in  the  proposal  which  the  Government 
have  made.  Indeed,  I  should  hear  with 
extreme  and  painfial  surprise  that  the 
noUe  Earl  opposite  had  consented  to  an^ 
solution  of  the  queitioa  of  whioh  this 


could  be  asserted.     I  condude  that  fl&e 

papers  on  the  subject  wiU  be  laid  before 

Parliament  at  the  earliest  possible  period, 

so  that  we  shaU  be  informed  very  soon 

what  proposition  has  been  made,  and  whe-* 

ther  it  has  been  met  in  the  spirit  whioh 

the  Ck>vemment  seem  so  confidently  to 

predict.    There  are  various  topics  in  the 

Speech  which  I  do  not  think  it  necessary 

to  deal  with  now.    They  are  measures  of 

great  importance,  and  I  trust  that  when 

they  are  produced  your  Lordships  will  find 

that  they  will  be  such  as  will  be  oon* 

ducive  to  the   welfare  of  the  country. 

Passing  over,  however,  these  topics  for  the 

present,  I  come  at  once  to  a  subject  on 

which  the  attention  of  the  country  is  fixed 

— I  mean  the  subject  of  Parliamentary 

Reform.    Upon  that  question  the  Speech 

firom  the  Throne  tells  us— 

Tour  Attention^  will  again  be  called  to  the 
State  of  the  Representation  of  the  People  in  Par- 
liament; and  I  trust  that  jonr  Deliberations*  oon- 
dooted  in  a  Spirit  of  Moderation  and  mntnal  For- 
bearanoe,  may  lead  to  the  Adoption  of  Measures 
whioh,  without  nndoljr  disturbing  the  Balance  of 
politioal  Power,  shall  freelj  extend  the  £leoti?e 

I  may,  I  hope,  conclude  from  this  para- 
graph— ^which  is*  somewhat  mysteriously 
wo^ed — ^that  a  Bill  will  very  soon  be  in- 
troduced into  the  other  House  of  Parlia- 
ment dealing  with  Beform;  and  that  it  will 
contain  provisions  so  fair  and  satisfiiotory 
that  that  House  may  be  able  to  meet  and 
consider  it  in  a  liberal  spirit,  and  to  give  it 
its  support.  Having  paid  a  good  deal  of 
attention  to  this  subject,  and  having  been 
much  connected  with  it,  I  must  request 
^our  Lordships  to  allow  me  to  state  how 
it  has  arrived  at  the  not  very  satLsAiotory 
position  in  which  it  at  present  stands. 
There  was,  unfortunately,  incorporated 
wi^  the  Beform  Act— against  the  wishes 
of  its  framers — a  dense  called  the  Chan- 
dos  Clause,  whioh  introduced  into  the 
electoral  bodv  in  the  counties  a  set  of  per- 
sons who,  I  should  say,  were  about  the  most 
dependent  class  existing  in  the  country 
— namely,  the  £50  tenants-at-will.  It  was 
urged  against  the  proposal  that  those  te- 
nants would  be  sure  to  vote  in  a  particular 
way ;  that  they  were,  in  fact,  so  aependent 
upon  their  landlords  tiiat  they  would  vote 
as  they  were  bidden.  However,  the 
House  accepted  the  clause,  and  the  Qo- 
vemment of  Lord  Grey  did  not  think 
it  wise  to  interfere  with  its  decision. 
The  oonseqnence  was  that  the  Act,  whioh 
might  otherwise  have  settled  the  question 
of  Beform  ton  fifty  years,  subsequently 



{Febboasx  5, 1867) 

Oratiout  Speteh.         SO 

beeame  the  sabjeot  of  diaooBsion  in  the 
House  of  OommonB.  It  waa  then  pro* 
poeedy  by  an  hon.  Hember  of  great  respec- 
tabUitVy  to  reduce  the  county  occupation 
firanchiae  horn  £50  to  £10,  and  the  House 
agreed  to  tiie  second  reading  of  a  Bill 
brought  in  for  that  purpose  fifteen  years 
ago.  But  it  was  then  thought  that  if 
changes  were  to  be  made  in  the  Beform 
Act,  there  were  other  classes  of  persons 
who  also  ought  to  haye  the  elective  fran* 
diise,  and  that  their  admission  to  it  would 
strengthen  the  Constitution,  would  give 
additional  force  to  what  may  be  cidled 
the  garrison  of  the  Constitution,  and 
enable  a  large  class  of  deserving  men  in 
boroughs,  renting  houses  somewhat  under 
jCIO,  to  take  a  greater  interest  in  political 
afifldrs.  These  deserving  persons  com- 
prised the  well-doing  artisans  in  the  towns 
of  this  country ;  and  it  was  therefore  pro- 
posed that  they  should  Be  admittod  along 
with  occupiers  at  a  lower  rent  than  £50 
in  counties.  This  last  proposal  was 
strongly  opposed.  It  was  said,  ''You 
must  not  degrade  the  franchise."  That 
was  the  phrase  constantly  used.  Accord- 
ingly, when  the  noble  'Earl  opposito  (the 
Etfl  of  Derby)  was  in  power  in  1859,  it 
was  declared  that  the  extension  of  the  fran- 
chise must  be  only  in  a  lateral  direction — 
that  no  proposal  for  lowering  of  the  suf- 
frage in  towns  could  be  admitted  or  listened 
to.  That,  as  I  conceived,  was  a  very 
great  defect  in  the  measure  of  the  noble 
Earl,  excluding,  as  it  did,  by  a  new  Be- 
form Bill,  every  man,  however  deserving, 
whose  rent  happened  to  be  under  £10 
from  the  franchise.  That  Bill  had  also 
another  defect— it  would  have  tended  to 
restore  nomination  boroughs,  for  it  was 
quite  clear  that  by  certain  provisions  of  it 
landowners  living  200  miles  off  would  be 
enabled  to  go  and  vote,  and  thus  swamp 
theinhabitontoof  the  borough.  I  thought^ 
therefore,  that  it  was  my  duty  to  endea- 
vour to  persuade  the  House  to  reject  the 
Bill,  tnie  House  of  Commons  listened  to 
me,  and  passed  a  Besolution  which  the 
Government  were  obliged  either  to  accept  or 
else  they  were  bound  to  give  up  their  BilL 
.The  Government  gave  up  their  measure 
and  dissolved  Parlmment.  It  is  true  that 
they  afterwards  intimated  that  they  thought 
the  borough  franchise  might  be  lowered, 
but  that  was  only  when  a  Motion  of 
Want  of  Confidence  in  them  was  brought 
forward  by  the  Max^ueas  of  Hartington. 
Since  then  the  lowering  of  the  franchise 
baa  been  constantly  opposed;  and  brfore 

the  elections  in  1866,  it  waa  declared  by 
the  right  hon.  Gentleman  the  Member  for 
Buckinghamshire  (Mr.  Disraeli)  that,  most 
happily,  the  House  of  Commons  had  re- 
fused to  "  degrade"  the  suffrage.  That, 
however,  was  not  the  real  question,  but 
whether  the  artisans  of  this  country,  the 
best  of  them  living  in  houses  somewhat 
under  £10,  should,  or  should  not,  have  the 
power  of  voting  for  Members  of  Parlia- 
ment. I  made  a  variety  of  proposals  upon 
that  subject,  but  they  were  all  to  the  same 
effect.  There  was  not  one  of  those  which 
I  do  not  still  consider  to  be  a  good  proposi- 
tion, though  some  may  have  been  better 
than  others;  but  the  party  now  in  power 
constently  and  openly  opposed  them  aU. 
Then,  my  Lords,  what  happened  last  Ses- 
sion i  The  Government  of  that  day  thought 
it  right  again  to  introduce  a  measure  on 
that  question ;  and  I  think  your  Lordships 
will  see  that  the  proposition  to  admit  to 
the  franobise  in  counties  tenanteata  value 
somewhat  under  £50,  and  in  towns  a 
number  of  artisans  occupying  houses  at  a 
value  somewhat  under  £10,  need  not  have 
frightened  anybody,  especially  as  a  very 
similar  proposal  had  been  carried  into  effect 
with  your  Lordships'  consent  in  respect  to 
Ireland,  where  the  occupation  franchise  is 
now  fixed  by  Act  of  Parliament  at  £12  in 
counties  and  £8  in  boroughs.  By  our  Bill 
of  last  year  we  proposed  an  occupation 
franchise  of  £14  in  counties  and  £7  in 
boroughs.  It  might  at  least  have  been 
diBpassionately  considered,  but  how  was  it 
met  ?  Our  proposals  were  met  in  a  man* 
ner  which  I  have  always  considered  was 
neither  honourable  to  those  concerned,  nor 
safe  for  the  country ;  for  it  has  been  the 
causeof  what  the  noble  Lord  the  Seconder 
of  the  Address  complained  of,  when  he 
said  that  there  were  persons  who,  as  he 
stated,  were  misleading  the  artisan  classes. 
The  noble  Earl  opposito  thought  it  necea- 
sary  last  year  to  make  a  declaration  as  to 
the  course  which  he  should  pursue  witii 
regard  to  our  Bill.  I  have  refenred  to  the 
speech  made  by  the  noble  Earl,  in  which 
he  found  fault  with  my  conduct  in  regard 
to  his  Bill  of  1 859.    The  noble  Earl  said-- 

"How  that  BUI  wm  anoounfcered,  defefttod, 
and  jp[ot  rid  of,  perhaps  the  noble  Earl  has 
now  forgotten.  I  oan  aMore  him  1  have  not."-^ 
[3  Barnard,  clxzxi.  100.] 

Then,  going  on  to  make  a  declaration  of 
the  course  which  he  should  himself  pursue 
with  respect  to  any  measure  introduced  by 
the  thra  Government,  on  February  6, 1866, 
the  noble  Earl  proceeded  as  foUowa  s— 




Sir  Mafeiljf  tm 


*'  I  wni  gpi'Mi  no  opinion  vpoo  thoir  BMMure 
until  I  hftTO  Mon  it.  I  hope  it  will  be  mioh  a 
moAtare  u  I  shall  be  able  to  rapport,  that  it  will 
be  a  reaionable  and  aatiafiMtory  lettlement  of 
this  mat  and  important  qoeetion,  which  I  be- 
lie?e  it  ii  dedrable  to  settle,  and  settle  onee  for 
i^  And  I  promise  the  noble  Earl  another  thing 
—that  his  BUI  shall  haTo  &ir  pUy ;  that  it  shaU 
not  be  thmst  aside  b/  any  underhand  methods ; 
that  th«re  shall  be  no  fiietioos  morements  or  com- 
binations against  it  on  the  part  of  those  who  can 
oombine  for  nothing  else ;  that  it  shall  be  dealt 
with  on  its  merits ;  that  if  we  can  approve  it  we 
shall  gi?e  it  oar  oordial  support ;  but  that,  on  the 
other  hand,  if  we  disapprove  it  and  think  it  is 
imperfoet,  inadequate,  or  dangerous,  and,  above 
all,  if  we  think  it  one  leading  to  future  agitation 
within  a  brief  pcsiod  of  a  perilous  character,  then 
with  whatever  means  we  may  possess  we  shall  do 
our  best  to  throw  it  out  by  fidr  debate  and  honour- 
able opposition."— [8  Hantard,  olxxzi.  101.] 

Mj  Lords,  it  is  my  priTilege  to  giro  my 
opinion  on  this  matter,  and  I  must  say  1 
think  our  Bill  did  not  haye  '•  fair  play ;" 
that  it  was enooontered  by  ''underhand 
methods"  and  by  ''fiustious  moyements 
and  combinations  on  the  part  of  those 
who  conld  oombine  for  nothing  else;** 
that  it  was  not  "dealt  with  npon  its 
merits  ;'*  and  that  it  was  not  met  by  *'  fair 
debate  and  honourable  opposition."  That, 
my  Lords,  is  a  statement  of  my  opinion.  It 
is  hardly  necessary  that  I  should  now 
trace  the  career  of  that  Bill  through  the 
House  of  Commons,  but  I  may  state  what 
I  hold  to  be  a  teir  opposition.  Our  plan 
for  reforming  the  county  occupation  fran- 
chise was  by  placing  it  at  £14.  It  was 
proposed,  on  the  other  hand,  that  £20 
should  be  the  limit  fixed.  That  was,  I 
think,  a  fair  mode  of  meeting  the  Bill,  and 
an  honourable  way  of  dea^dng  with  the 
question ;  and  if  it  had  been  adopted  by 
the  House  of  Commons,  it  would  haye 
formed  a  basii  for  the  county  franchise. 
Now,  let  me  state  what  I  regard  as  a 
course  of  quite  a  different  character.  It 
was  said  that  a  Bill  proposing  in  the  first 
place  to  deal  with  the  franchise  in  Eng- 
land, similar  to  one  which  had  been  passed 
in  the  case  of  Ireland,  was  not  sufficient 
It  was  proposed  that  tiie  measures  for  the 
re-distribution  of  seats  should  be  dealt  with 
in  the  same  Bill  as  the  franchise ;  and  that 
proposal  was  supported,  not  by  those  who 
wished  to  see  a  great  and  complete  mea- 
sure of  Beform,  but  by  those  who  were 
opposed  to  any  change  in  the  present  sys- 
tem, and  who  thought  it  would  be  incon- 
sistent with  the  public  interests  to  haye 
any  Beform  at  all.  That  proposal  was  de- 
feated; but  it  was  afterwanb  agreed  by  the 
Ooyemment  that  the  Be-distnbution  Bill 


should  be  grafted  upon  the  Bill  for  ex- 
tending the  franchise.    Again,  when  we 
submitted  our  measure  proyiding  for  the 
re-distribution  of  the  seats,  it  was  sought 
to  graft  upon  that  the  f\urther  proposal 
that  the  purt  of  the  Bill  dealing  with  the 
re-distribution  of  the  seats  should  be  takea 
first  and  disposed  of  before  proceeding  with 
the  other  jfmrt  of  the  question.    Now,  if 
your  Lordships  will  consider  that  in  1832 
the  question  of  the  simple  re-distribution 
of  seats  occupied  from  the  beginning  of 
July  till  the  end  of  September,  and  that 
our  draft  Bill  contained,  not  only  pro- 
posals for  taking  away  Members  from  cer« 
tain  boroughs,  but  also  for  grouping  dif- 
ferent towns   together  with  a  yiew,   if 
possible,  to  preyent  bribery  and  corrup- 
tion, you  will  at  once  perceiye  the  ineyit- 
able  result.    Had  the  House  of  Commons 
decided  upon  proceeding  with  that  portion 
of  the  measure  first,   there  would  haye 
been  such  lengthened  controyersies  eyery 
day,  not  only  upon  the  different  places 
that  were  to  be  grouped,  but  also  as  to 
one  borough  being  ten  miles  distant  and 
another  not  more  than  eight,  and  the  like 
minuiia,  that  it  would  haye  taken  pro- 
bably from  the  beginning  of  July  to  the 
end  of  September  to  get  tiirough  Commit- 
tee, and  it  would  then  haye  been  quite 
impossible  before  the  close  of  the  Session 
to  haye  had  any  discussion  on  the  real 
question—namely,  whether  a  £6,  a  £7, 
or  an  £8  rating,  or  any  other  franchise, 
should  be  adopted  for  boroughs.  That  waa 
the  way  in  which  the  then  Opposition 
eyaded  dealing  with  the  Bill  of  the  late 
Ooyemment  on  its  merits.    They  endea- 
youred  to  defeat  it  by  underhand  proceed- 
ings, and  by  a  proposal  contrary' to  the 
rules  of  the  House  of  Commons,  and  the 
practice  of  honourable  opposition.    It  was 
contrary  to  the  regulation  that  all  parties 
have  adopted  for  many  years,  that  of  giring 
notice  of  any  important  Amendment,  and 
placing  it  on  the  Votes  in  a  printed  form, 
so  that  those  who  haye  to  meet  it  should 
know  what  that  Motion  is.   That  step  was 
taken  without  any  such  notice,  and  with- 
out any  knowledge  on  the  part  of  the  Go- 
vernment that  any  Motion  was  about  to 
be  made.  The  Ooyemment  were  not  aware 
of  the  Amendment  till  within  fiye  or  ten 
minutes  before  it  was  moyed,  and  they  had 
come  down  prepared  to  deal  with  a  Motion 
of  which  notice  had  been  giyen  in  the  re- 
gular way.    That  was  the  course  adopted 
by  the  Oppoation.    I  call  that  an  unfair 
and  underhand  course.    I  say  tbatii  with 


Set  Most 

(Febbuabt  5|  1867} 

OraeiouB  Spe&eh.         34 

regard  to  the  Bill  of  the  late  Government 
it  was  not  met  on  its  merits,  but  an  at- 
tempt was  made  to  form  a  combination 
against  it  on  the  part  of  those  who  were 
unable  to  combine  on  any  other  subject. 
If  I  am  well-founded  in  my  history  of 
what  then  took  place,  the  noble  Earl  op- 
posite has  no  occasion  to  '*  thank  God 
that  he  was  not  as  other  men/'  nor  even 
as  those  Publicans  of  1859,  because  he 
was  quite  as  bad  as  those  Publicans.  With 
respect  to  the  Bill  which  the  noble  Earl 
is  about  to  produce,  I  only  hope  that  it 
will  be  produced  soon ;  that  it  will  con- 
tain such  provisions  that  it  may  receive 
the  support  of  the  House  of  Commons  and 
of  your  Lordships.  For  my  own  part,  I 
neither  promise  to  support  it  nor  do  I 
threaten  opposition  to  it.  If  it  be  a  good 
Bill,  no  doubt  we  shall  be  happy  to  see  it 
carried.  If  it  be  a  bad  Bill,  with  an  in- 
complete or  delusive  franchise,  it  would 
only  lead  to  that  to  which  the  noble  Earl 
last  year  justly  objected.  If  we  think  it 
will  lead  on  a  future  occasion  to  agita- 
tion of  a  perilous  character,  it  will  be  our 
duty  to  oppose  it.  If  the  House  of  Com- 
mons pass  a  fair  Bill,  and  your  Lordships 
approve  it,  giving  a  great  body  of  the 
artisans  of  this  country  the  privileges  which 
they  are  well  fitted  to  exercise — ^if  we  im- 
pose upon  them  the  duty  which  they  are 
well  fitted  to  perform,  that  of  exercising 
one  of  the  most  important  functions  which 
can  be  exercised  in  a  free  country  in  voting 
for  representatives  to  Parliament ;  in  short, 
in  selecting  men  on  whom  the  conduct, 
power,  faith,  and  freedom  of  this  country 
depend  for  many  years— -if  you  give  them 
that  advantage  freely  and  fairly,  and  to  a 
proper  extent,  then  you  may  hope  to  settle 
this  question.  But  if,  on  the  other  hand, 
you  endeavour  by  any  tricks  or  shuffles  to 
cheat  them  of  that  fair  right,  and  endea- 
vour to  give  them  less  than  that  to  which 
they  are  entitled,  you  will  not  succeed, 
and  you  will  lay  the  foundation  of  future 
agitation.  I  am  aware  that  many  of  the 
public  meetings  have  declared  in  favour  of 
manhood  suffrage,  but  hardly  any  on&  in 
either  House  of  Parliament  wishes  for  such 
a  suffrage,  and  if  you  give  the  working 
classes  of  this  country  a  fair  proportion  of 
votes  you  may  hope  to  settle  this  question 
for  a  considerable  time.  But  if  you  deal 
with  it  unfairly  and  inadequately  thbre 
can  be  no  better  theme  for  agitation  at  the 
General  Election,  which  must  take  place 
soon  after  the  passing  of  such  a  Bill,  than 
that    the    present   House    of    Commons 

YOI^.  CLXXXY.    [thibd  sskibs.] 

cheated  the  country,  and  that  it  was  ne- 
cessary to  have  a  new  Eeform  Bill  and 
new  Members  of  Parliament  who  would 
do  their  duty  to  their  constituents  more 
honestly  than  the  Members  of  the  present 
House  of  Commons.  If  I  were  an  agi- 
tator I  would  wish  for  no  better  theme. 
The  noble  Earl  having  arrived  at  the  con- 
clusion that  there  ought  to  be  a  large 
Reform,  will,  I  trust,  reduce  the  franchise 
to  such  an  extent  that  his  measure  will  be 
accepted  by  the  country.  We  all  know 
very  well  that  there  are  different  methods 
of  reasoning  which  affect  different  minds. 
Some  people  are  very  well  convinced  by 
the  inductive  method ;  others  are  more 
convinced  by  the  method  of  deduction. 
Some  like  the  algebraic,  and  others  the 
geometric  method.  But  with  regard  to 
noble  Lords  opposite  there  is  no  way  which 
succeeds  so  well  as  being  in  Office.  The 
noble  Earl,  in  a  speech  delivered  by  him  at 
Liverpool  in  the  course  of  the  summer, 
dwelt  upon  the  great  advantage  arising 
from  a  change  of  Government  from  time 
to  time.  I  quite  agree  with  him  in  what 
he  said ;  but  there  is  a  further  advantage 
which  he  did  not  mention — namely,  that 
when  the  noble  Earl  comes  into  Office  he 
perceives  the  truth  of  propositions  which 
he  has  been  opposing  for  fifteen  years.  I 
have  only  further  to  say  that  I  trust  the 
measure  which  the  Government  have  an- 
nounced with  respect  to  Ireland  will  have 
all  the  merits  which  ought  to  belong  to 
our  legislation  on  this  subject — that  it  will 
have  no  injurious  effects  on  the  rights  of 
property,  but  that  it  will  enable  tenants 
to  make  improvements.  If  the  noble  Earl 
secures  those  objects  he  will  confer  a  great 
advantage  upon  Ireland.  The  last  time 
the  noble  Earl  was  in  Office  he  was  parti- 
cularly fortunate  in  the  selection  of  his 
Lord  Lieutenant.  Lord  Eglinton  per- 
formed the  duties  of  Lord  Lieutenant  in  a 
manner  which  won  the  respect  and  admi- 
ration of  all  parties  in  Ireland  and  in  this 
country.  I  believe  that  he  has  been  equally 
fortunate  in  the  selection  of  the  present 
Lord  Lieutenant,  who  hos  conducted  him- 
self in  a  manner  to  which  no  one  can 
object.  Of  course,  the  duties  of  a  Lord 
Lieutenant  are  those  of  Administration 
solely.  As  the  late  Lord  Wellesley  said, 
the  duty  of  the  Lord  Lieutenant  is  to  ad- 
minister the  law  and  not  to  alter  it. 
There  are  other  questions  of  importance 
affecting  Ireland — among  them  that  of 
landlord  and  tenant — which,  when  we*have 
got  rid  of  Eeform,  will  deserve  the  atten- 



AdJrea  to 


Jl&r  Itysiiy  on 


tion  of  your  Lordahips  as  much  as  any  qnes- 
tioB  can.  My  noble  Friend  (the  Earl  of 
£imberley)»  when  be  was  Lord  Lieutenant, 
made  many  raluable  suggestionB  in  regard 
to  Ireland.  Bat  nothing  can  be  under- 
taken on  the  subject  of  Ireland  without 
the  deepest  consideration.  The  best  inten- 
tions are  not  enongh,  but  I  do  trust  that 
measures  for  the  amelioration  of  the  con- 
dition of  Ireland  will  be  considered  with 
deliberation  and  will  be  carried.  I  thank 
your  Lordships  for  your  attention,  and 
have  only  to  add  that  I  do  not  consider  it 
necessary  to  more  any  Amendment  to  the 

The  EiBL  o»  DERBY:  My  Lords,  I 
trust  that,  in  addressing  your  Lordships,  I 
may  be  permitted  to  express  my  gratitude 
to  my  noble  Friends  behind  me  for  the 
very  succinct,  clear,  and  able  manner  in 
which  they  moved  and  seconded  the  Ad- 
dress. I  should  hardly  have  thought  it 
possible  to  go  through  the  varied  topics  of 
a  Speech  from  the  Throne  with  so  much 
clearness,  discretion,  and  brevity  as  was 
done  by  my  noble  Friend  who  moved  the 
Address.  There  was  not  a  single  topic  of 
the  Speech  which  he  left  untouched,  and 
not  one  which  he  did  not  touch  upon  with 
the  most  perfect  fairness  and  discretion. 
I  must  also  express  my  satisfaction  that 
the  noble  Earl  who  has  just  ^at  down  has 
not  found  any  matter  for  comment — cer- 
tainly not  for  objection — in  the  Speech 
from  the  Throne.  I  am  more  satisfied 
with  the  coursiB  which  the  noble  Earl  has 
found  it  expedient  to  pursue  than  even 
with  his  assurance  that  he  does  not  intend 
to  move  an  Amendment  to  the  Address. 
In  his  somewhat  lengthened  discourse  the 
noble  Earl — with  the  exception  of  one 
important  topic — has  not  commented  on 
the  Speech,  but  has  thought  it  necessary 
to  enter  into  an  historical  discussion  as  to 
the  progress  'or  non-progress  of  Reform  for 
the  last  five-and-thirty  years,  and  con- 
cerning the  various  Bills,  and  discussions, 
and  disputes  which  have  taken  place.  My 
Lords,  I  may  say,  at  the  outset,  that  I 
must  decline  to  follow  the  noble  Earl  into 
that  part  of  his  speech.  It  is  our  earnest 
desire  and  hope  that  this  great  question  of 
Parliamentary  Reform  may  meet  with  an 
early  and  satisfactory  settlement.  Her 
Majesty's  Ministers  having  announced  their 
intention  of  bringing  forward  the  question 
at  a  very  early  period,  I  may  at  once  re- 
lieve the  noble  Earl's  anxiety  as  to  any 
attempt  at  delay  upon  our  part  by  saying 
that  upon  the  very  earliest  possible  day — 

Sari  SwieU 

I  believe  on  Monday  next — it  is  the  in- 
tention of  my  right  hon.  Friend  the  Chan* 
cellor  of  the  Exchequer    to   lay   before 
the  House  of  Commons  in  detail  the  pro- 
posal which  Her  Majesty's  Government  in- 
tend to  bring  forward.  But,  my  Lords,  I  am 
compelled  to  say  that  there  is  no  hope  of  a 
satisfactory  settlement  of  such  a  question 
if  it  be  taken  up  in  the  spirit  and  in  the 
temper  which  I  am  sorry  to  say  the  noble 
Earl  has  manifested.    If  it  be  the  inten- 
tion to  meet  this  question,  not  with  the 
view  of  considering  what  is  best  to  be 
done,  but  by  bandying  recriminations  with 
the  opposite  party,  and  with  charging  them 
with  unfairness,  inconsistency,  and  double 
dealing,  and  what  not,  and  by  carrying 
the  recrimination  backwards  to  a  period  of 
fifteen  years  or  more,  then   I  say,  my 
Lords,  there  is  no  hope  of  this  question 
arriving  at  a  satisfactory  settlement.    In 
that  case  I  should  deeply  regret  the  course 
which  Her  Majesty's  Government  have 
been  induced  to  pursue  in  raising  a  ques- 
tion which  can  only  lead  to  angry  dis- 
cussions   without    any  probability  of  a 
satisfactory  result.    My  Lords,  we  do  de- 
sire  to    see    this  question   satisfactorily 
settled.     If,  however,  we  desire  to  see  the 
representation  of  the  country  placed  upon 
a  sound  basis— if  we  desire  to  see  a  settle- 
ment of  the  question,  which  I  do  not  say 
should  be  final,  but  which   shall  render 
unnecessary  and  improbable  any  agitation 
with  regard  to  further  measures  for  a  very 
considerable  time,  then  I  say  that  such  an 
object  cannot  be  attained  by  making  the 
question  one  of  party  and  of  political  strife 
for  the  purpose  of  obtaining  Office  or  Par- 
liamentary majorities.     The  subject  must 
be  examined  in  a  fair,  deliberate,  and  dis- 
passionate spirit.    We  must  be  prepared 
to  give  and  take — we  must  be  prepared  to 
meet  each  other's  views-— we  must  be 
prepared,  above  all  things,  to  cast  away 
all  questions  of  party  and  all  questions 
of  strife  and  political  power.     [^Lau^hter.'l 
Noble  Lords  laugh ;  but  I  say  this,  and 
I   am   speaking  from  the  deepest    con- 
viction   in   my  own   mind,   that   there 
is  no  possible  Ck>vemment  in  this  coun- 
try that  could,  at  the  present  moment, 
by   itself   carry    a    Reform    Bill.      The 
noble  Earl  tried  it  last  year,  when  he 
thought  he  had  a  majority.    He  laid  down 
the  broad  principle,  that  no  Government 
was  required  or  justified  in  bringing  for- 
ward a  Reform  Bill  unless  they  thought 
they  had  a  reasonable  prospect  of  being 
able  to  carry  it.    I  do  not  go  quite  so  far 



[FsBRVhXt  5|  1867] 

Oru&iaut  Sp&&ch. 


m.UiB  noUe  Bail ;  bat  I  say  that  in  the 

pmcnt  state  of  paitieB  no  Goveniment — 

le  it  on  this  side  of  the  House  or  be  it  on 

that  side  of  the  House — ean  hope  to  cany 

bjtheir  own  separate  and  distinct  exertions 

80^  a  Befonn  Bill  aa  they  might  think 

the  moat  desirable.     If  this  question  is 

to  be  settled  it  mnst  be  settled  by  mutaal 

sooiproDsiBe,  and  by  mutual  forbearance, 

aad  not  by  bandying  recriminations  and 

rqRtKsehea  upon  past  discussions  and  past 

difoeneefl.     Although  I  cannot  commend 

the  aeeoracy  of  the  noble  EarFs  recapi- 

tolatioa  of  what  took  place  either  in  1859 

or  1866,  I  will  not  follow  him  into  the 

topic.     I  will  not  argue  with  him  as  to 

the  statement  which  the  noble  Earl  made 

that  from  the  period  extending  from  1882 

dovn  to  1866  the  desire  and  attempt  of 

the  CooBeiratiye  party  was  to  keep  the 

borooglL    franchise    from   being  reduced 

below  £10,  and  to  keep  the  county  firan- 

diise  from  being  reduced  below  £60.    I 

nay,  howerer,  say  that,  with  regard  to 

the  comity  finmchise,  it  is  notorious  that 

in  1859  the  then  €k)Temment  proposed  a 

kzger  redaction  of  the  county  fhrnchise 

and  a  greater   extension  than  has  been 

proposed  since  that  period.    But  the  sense 

of  the  House,  of  the  public,  and  of  the 

sonntry  waa  pronounced  against  the  pro« 

poiaL     It  waa,  I  think,  a  matter  open  to 

sigument,  that  the  county  and  borough 

frmehise   ahonld    stand  upon   the  same 

footing ;  and  it  was  in  aocordanoe  with  this 

riew  that  when  we  proposed  hugely  to 

reduce  the  county  franchise  we  declined  to 

reduce  the  borough  franchise,  so  that  we 

might  maintain  an  equality  betwixt  the 

two.    That   proposali  however,   was  not 

sanctioned  by  the  country  or  Parliament, 

and  haa  never  been  introduced  since,  it 

having  been  generally  admitted  that  there 

should  be  a  difference  with  regard  to  the 

amount  and  character  of  the  qualificatipn 

of  the  counties  and  boroughs.    From  that 

time  the   noble  Earl  certainly  has   not 

given  ua  many  opportunities  of  expressing 

oar  opinion  upon  the  subject.     Since  1860 

down  to  1866  he  was  perfectly  satisfied  to 

leave  the  whole  question  of  the  franchise 

and  Beform  alone;   and  it  was  not  till 

last  year  that  his  newly  awakened  zeal  for 

the  benefit  of  the  artisans  and  the  work* 

ing  dasaes  led  him  to  bring  forward  a  hasty, 

imperfect,   and  crude  proposition.     How 

the  Bill  was  defeated  is  matter  of  history. 

It  waa  not  defeated  solely  by  the  political 

(^ponenta  of  the  noUe  Earl,  but  by  many 

cf  those  who,  being  his  snpportersi  felt 

the  measure  was  so  ill-considered,  so  in- 
complete, so  unsatisfactory,  and  at  the 
same  time  so  dangerous,  that,  although  the 
House  of  Commons  had  unanimously  as- 
sented to  the  principle  of  a  Bill  extensively 
lowering  the  franchise,  and  introducing 
material  changes,  yet,  when  they  came  to 
discuss  the  detcdls  of  the  measure,  they 
felt  they  could  not  give  it  their  support. 
It  was  not,  therefore,  by  the  opposition 
mainly  of  Uie  opponents  of  the  then  Go- 
vernment, but  practically  .  by  the  oppo- 
sition of  those  who  were  generally  sup- 
porters of  the  Government  and  Mem- 
bers of  the  Liberal  party,  that  that 
Bill  was  pronounced  to  be  one  to 
which  the  House  of  Commons  could  not 
give  its  sanction.  1  beg  your  Lordships' 
pardon  for  having  been  led  into  taking  so 
much  notice  of  the  topics  that  have  been 
introduced  by  the  noble  Earl.  I  will  not 
say  a  word  further  about  the  measure 
which  Her  Majesty's  Government  are  to 
bring  in,  but  that  this  question  should  be 
left  for  discussion  until  the  time  when  it 
is  fairly  brought  before  the  House.  I 
think  that  this  question  cannot  be  brought 
forward  in  a  satisfactory  manner  upon  such 
an  occasion  as  the  discussion  of  the  Address 
to  the  Grown ;  but  that  when  it  is  brought 
forward  it  should  be  laid  before  the  House 
in  such  a  manner  as  will  fully  and  clearly 
set  forth  the  reasons  for  the  course  which  it 
is  intended  to  pursue,'  and  will  give  the 
House,  which  is  principally,  though  not 
exclusively,  interested  in  its  settlement,  a 
full  oppoitunity  of  passing  their  judgment 
upon  die  measure  recommended  by  Her 
Majesty's  Ministers.  Passing  fh)m  this 
subject,  there  are  only  one  or  two  further 
topics  contained  in  the  speech  of  the  noble 
Earl  to  which  I  can  advert  In  the  first 
place,  he  expressed  a  hope  that  in  any 
proposition  that  might  be  made  by  the 
United  States  Government  for  the  settle- 
ment  of  those  unfortunate  differences 
which  have  arisen  out  of  the  late  Civil 
War,  the  present  (Government  may  do  no- 
thing which  may  sacrifice  or  imperil  the 
honour  of  tliis  country.  He  did  not  com- 
plain that  Her  Majesty's  present  Govern- 
ment had  taken  a  dLSerent  course  from 
that  which  he  had  thought  fit  to  pursue ; 
but  he  hoped  we  should  make  no  conces- 
sions calculated  to  sacrifice  the  honour  of 
the  country.  My  Lords,  although  certain 
negotiations  have  taken  place,  the  corre- 
spondence has  not  yet  arrived  at  the  point 
at  which  I  should  think  it  consistent  with 
my  duty  to  lay  it  before  the  House  \  but  I 

0  2 


Addresi  to 


Si/r  Maf99ty. 


may  venture  to  Bay  that  in  that  corre- 
Bpondence  ^rhenever  it  shall  he  laid  before 
jour  Lordships — and  it  shall  be  laid  on 
the  table  at  as  early  a  period  as  the  public 
service  will  allow — the  noble  Earl  will 
find  that  while  Her  Majesty's  Government 
are  disposed  to  come  to  an  amicable  solu- 
tion of  the  matter  if  they  are  capable, 
they  will  in  no  degree  depart  from  that 
which  is  due  to  the  honour  of  the  countryi 
or  forfeit  any  of  those  rights  which  pro- 
perly belong  to  independent  nations.  The 
noble  Earl  has  stated  that  he  belieyes 
some  proposition  has  been  made  to  the 
Government  of  the  United  States.  The 
fact  is  this : — Shortly  after  the  accession  to 
OfHce  of  the  present  Government  the  United 
States  Government  addressed  a  despatch  to 
the  noble  Lord  at  the  head  of  the  Foreign 
Office  recapitulating  the  grounds  of  com- 
plaint which  they  stated  they  had  against 
the  British  Government.  In  point  of  fact, 
these  were  the  same  as  those  which  had 
been  before  pressed  upon  the  noble  EarL 
In  answer  to  the  despatch  my  noble  Relative 
thought  it  necessary  to  enter,  not  acrimo- 
niously but  particularly!  into  a  discussion 
of  .the  various  points  which  the  United 
States  Government  presented  for  adjust 
ment  and  compensation.  I  may  say  that 
there  was  one  question  which  pressed  upon 
my  mind,  as  it  had  on  the  mind  of  the 
noble  Earl  opposite,  and  npon  which  we 
found  it  impossible  to  come  to  any  com- 
promise, and  that  was  the  question  of  the 
right  of  this  country  to  decide  at  what 
time,  and  under  what  circumstances,  it 
should  recognise  belligerent  rights.  wWith 
regard  to  this  point,  I  think  the  answer 
which  the  noble  Earl  formerly  gavo  was 
entirely  conclusive — namely,  that  in  the 
first  place  the  question  of  the  discre- 
tion, to  recognise  belligerent  rights  was 
inherent  in  an  independent  country ;  and 
in  the  next  place,  that  in  this  particular 
instance  the  recognition  of  belligerent 
rights  did  not  precede  but  followed  the 
declaration  of  blockade  on  the  part  of 
the  United  States  Government.  Block- 
ade is  essentially  an  exercise  of  belligerent 
rights ;  and  after  the  blockade  had  been 
declared  by  one  of  the  belligerents,  there 
were  but  two  courses  for  the  Government 
o(  this  country  to  pursue-— namely,  to  re- 
fuse to  recognise  the  validity  of  the  block- 
ade on  the  ground  that  there  were  no 
belligerents,  or  to  recognise  the  belligerent 
rights  of  both  parties.  Between  these  two 
alternatives  the  late  Goremment  selected 
that  which  the  noble  Earl  truly  said  was 

The  Ilarl  of  Ihrhy  ^  . 


most   friendly  to    the    United    States'— 
namely,  they  recognised  the  very  imper- 
fect blockade.  At  the  same  time,  they  found 
themselves  under  the  necessity  of  recog^ 
nising  correlative  obligations.     I  cannot 
but  think  that  this  is  a  point  which  the 
United  States  Government  will  not,  upon, 
reflection,  think  it  necessary  or  expedient 
to  press,  and  for  this  reason: — We  saw 
lately,  I  think  it  was  upon  the  introduction, 
of  the  new  French  Minister  from  Washing- 
ton, that  a  declaration  was  officially  made 
to  the  efiect  that  after  the  evacuation  of 
Mexico  by  the  French  troops  ^  there  would 
no  longer  remain  between  the  two  coun« 
tries  a  single  question  which  could  lead  to 
a  ground  of  difference,  or  be  made  the  sub- 
ject of  complaint ;  and  thus  nothing  would 
remain  to  interfere  with  the  cordial  relations 
which  the  United  States  always  desire  to 
keep  up  with  France.   Now,  with  regard  to 
the  recognition  of  belligerent  rights,  Hor 
Majesty's  late  Government  and  the  GoTem- 
ment  of  the  Emperor  of  the  French  pro- 
ceeded in  concert,  acting  simultaneously,  and 
pursuing  a  precisely  identical  course ;  and 
even  if  I  attributed  to  the  United  States 
Government  a  feeling  of  unfriendliness  to- 
wards this  country — which  I  am  very  far 
from  doing — they  could  not  denounce  as  a 
reasonable  ground  for  complaint,  compen- 
sation, and  remonstrance  against  this  coon- 
try  that  which  they  have  officially  declared 
to  be  no  obstacle  between  friendly  nations 
on  the  part  of  the  Government  of  France, 
whose  action  was  simultaneous  and  identi- 
cal with  that  of  this  country.    But  we 
hare  said  this — if  the  Government  of  the 
United  States  will  state  the  principle  upon 
which  the  arbitration  is  to  proceed;  if 
the^  will  point  out  the  precise  question 
winch  they  wish  to  have  referred  to  arbi- 
tration, and  the  grounds  on  which  they 
ask  for  redress  and  compensation,  we,  on 
our  parts,  shall  be  quite  ready  to  meet 
them  in  a  friendly  spirit  for  the  purpose 
of  discussing  the  particular  questions  on 
which  the  arbitration  is  sought;  and  if 
we  can  find  an  impartial  arbitrator,  we 
shall  be  prepared  to  submit  those  ques- 
tions to  his  judgment.    These  are,  in  sub- 
stance, the  proposals  we  have  made  to  the 
United  States  Goyemment.    It  remains 
to  be  seen  whether  negotiations  founded 
on  those  principles  can  bo  brought  to  a 
satisfactory  conclusion.     I  hope  and  trust 
that  they  may;  because  I  am  convinced 
that  there  are  no  cruntries  whose  interests 
are  more  deeply  involved  in  the  mainte- 
nance of  friendly  relations  with  one  another 

41         S€w  WriU  JDurmg  (Fi^BirABr  5,  1867} 

ttai  tliM  ooimtry  and  the  great  Bepablic 
OB  the  other  side  of  the  Atlantic.    I  be- 
licTe  (hit  nothing  could  bo  more  anicidal 
thtn  a  war  betireen    England  and  the 
Uniied  States;  and  that  no  other  conn  tries 
ia  the  world  could  either  inflict  upon  each 
other  80  laigc  an  amount  of  injarj,  or  be 
prodvetire  to  each  other  of  so  many  bene- 
fits.   There  is,  I  think,  only  one  other 
point  in  Her  Majesty's  Speech  to  w^ich 
the  noble  Earl  adverted,  and  that  is  the 
nHasoro  which  wo  propose  to  introduce 
lar  the  settlement  of  the  relation  between 
landlord  and  tenant  in  Ireland.     I  do  not 
it  all  wish  to   detract  from  the  merits 
which  the  noble  £arl  ascribed — ^and  very 
pn^crly  ascribed — to  the  Administration 
of  the  late  Lord  Lieutenant  of  that  coun- 
try; and  I  agree  with  the  noble  Earl  that 
one  of  the  Inah  questions  most  necessary 
to  be  solvedy  and  at  the  same  time  perhaps 
most  difficidt  of   Bolution,  is  that   ques- 
tion of  the  relation  between  landlord  and 
taant.    I  will  not,  however,  anticipate 
the  discussion  of  that  particular  measure 
which  we  propose  to  bring  forward.     The 
ffin  upon  the  subject  is  prepared,  and  is 
ready  to  be   laid   upon  the  table  of  the 
other  Honse  ;  and  I  will  only  say  that  in 
pieparing  that  Bill  Her  Majesty's  Oovem- 
ment  were  anxiously  desirous  of  giving, 
on  the  one  hand,  every  facility  to  tenants 
for  improving  their  holdings  and  for  bene- 
tting  Utemselves  by  those  improvements, 
and,  on  the  other  hand,  of  maintaining  those 
JQst  rights  of  property  on  the  part  of  land- 
lords which  cannot  be  interfered  with  with- 
out destroying  the  whole  social  condition 
of  this  country.     As  the  noble  Earl  did 
not  think  it  necessary  to  comment  on  any 
other  portion  of  Her  Majesty's  Speech,  and 
as,  after  waiting  for  a  little  time,  I  did 
not  find  that  any  other  noble  Lord  was 
desirous  of  addressing  your  Lordships,  I 
will  not  touch  any  further  upon  the  va- 
rious topics  to  which  the  Speech  refers ; 
Imt  I  will  content  myself  with  expressing 
my  thankfulness  to  your  Lordships  for  the 
Biaaner  in  which  you  have  received  the 
Speedi  and  the  Address,  and  I  hope  that 
the  temperate  spirit  which  has  been  dis- 
played upon  this  occasion,  furnishes  a  just 
iadication  of  the  courtesy  and  the  candour 
trith  which  the  measures  that  may  be  sub- 
mitted to  your  Lordships  will  be  received 
during  the  renoainder  of  the  Session. 



The  Lord  Ebdesdale  appointed,  Nemine 
Disuntienie,  to  toke  the  Chair  in  all  Com* 
mittces  of  this  House  for  this  Session. 

CouuiTTEE  FOB  Pbivileoes — Appointed. 



Appeal  Cokmittsb — Appointed. 

Home  adjonrned  at  half  {Kiit  Sorcn  o'clock, 

to  TbnndAjr  next,  a  quarter 

before  Fi?e  o'clock. 


Tueiday,  February  6,  1867. 

The  House  met  at  half  after  One  of  the    * 

A  Message  from  Her  Majesty,  by  Sir 
Augustus  Clifford,  Gentleman  Usher  of  the 
Black  Eod— 

"Mb.  SPEAXEn, 
"The  Queen  commands  this  Honour- 
able House  to  attend  Her  Majesty  imme- 
diately, in  the  House  of  Peers." 

Address  agreed  to,  Nemine  Disseniiente, 
a&d  Ordered  to  be  presented  to  Her  Majesty 
by  the  Lords  with  White  Staves. 

Accordingly,    Mr.   Speaker,    with  the 
House,  went  up  to  attend  Her  Majesty ; — 

And  being  returned ; 


Mr.  Sfeakeb  acquainted  the  House  that, 
during  the  Recess,  ho  had  issued  Warrants 
for  New  JFrits,far  Brecknock  Borough,  v. 
Earl  of  Brecknock,  now  Marquess  Camden  ; 
for  Penryn,  v.  Hon.  Thomas  George  Baring, 
now  Lord  Northbrook;  for  Gloucester 
County  (Western  Division),  r.  John  Holt, 
esquire,  Attorney  General ;  for  Pembroko 
County,  V,  George  Lort  Phillips,  esquire, 
deceased;  for  Guildford,  v.  Sir  William 
Bovill,  Chief  Justice  of  the  Common  Pleas ; 
for  Tipperary,  v.  John  Blake  Dillon,  es- 
quire, deceased ;  far  Belfast,  v.  Sir  Hugh 
M'Colmont  Cairns,  one  of  tho  Judges  of 
the  Court  of  Appeal  in  Chancery;  for 
Wexford  County,  t?.  John  George,  esquire, 
one  of  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Queen's 
Bench  in  Ireland;  for  Waterford  County, 
r.  Earl  of  Tyrone,  now  Marquess  of  Water- 
ford  ;  for  Armagh  Borough,  Stearno  Ball 
Miller,  esquiro,  one  of  the  Judges  of  Ilor 
Majesty's  Court  of  Bankruptcy  and  lusol- 
yency  in  Ireland. 





H$r  Mn^Miy  tm 


Kichard  Garthi  esquiroi  for  Guildford ; 
Howel  G wyn,  esquire,  for  Brecknock  Bo- 
rough ;  John  Vance,  esquire,  for  Armagh 
Borough ;  Jerroise  Smith,  esquire,  for 
Penryn;  Charles  Lanyon,  esquire,  for 
Belfast ;  James  Beyan  Bewen,  esquire./or 
Pembroke  County;  Hon.  George  Douglas 
Pennant,  for  Carnarvon  County;  Hon. 
Adelbert  Wellington  Cu8t,/or  Salop  (North- 
ern Division);  Hon. Captain  Charles  White, 
/or  Tipperary ;  Sir  John  Bolt, /or  Glouces- 
ter County  (Western  Division). 


Ordered^  That  a  Committee  of  Privileges 
be  appointed. 


Bill ''  for  the  more  effectual  preventing 
Clandestine  Outlawries,"  read  the  first 
time ;  to  be  read  a  second  time. 


For  Northampton  County  (Northern 
Division),  v.  Lord  Burghley,  now  Marquess 
of  Exeter;  for  Suffolk  (Eastern  Division),  v. 
Sir  Edward  Clarence  Kerrison,  baronet, 
Chiltern  Hundreds. 



Mb.  speaker  reported,  That  this 
House  has,  this  day,  attended  Her  Ma- 
jesty' in  the  House  of  Peers,  when  Her 
Majesty  was  pleased  to  make,  by  Her 
Chancellor,  a  most  gracious  Speech  from 
the  Throne  to  both  Houses  of  Parliament ; 
of  which,  Mr.  Speaker  said,  he  had,  for 
greater  accuracy,  obtained  a  Copy  :— 

And  Mr.  Spsaxeb  read  it  to  the  House. 


Mb.  De  GBET  rose  to  move  that  an 
humble  Address  be  presented  to  Her  Ma- 
jesty in  answer  to  Her  most  gracious 
Speech.  He  said,  he  could  not  but  feel 
that  if,  under  ordinary  circumstances, 
no  Member  unused  to  take  part  in  the 
debates  of  this  House  could  venture  to 
rise  without  asking  the  indulgence  of  the 

HoosOf  still  more  must  he,  one  of  the 
youngest  of  its  Members,  claim  that  (son* 
sideration  which  was  always  so  generoualy 
bestowed  on  those  who  undertook  the  duty. 
But  there  were  special  circumstances  whioh 
required  that  he  should  use  peculiar  caa« 
tion  in  addressing  them.  In  the  last  Ses* 
sion  a  great  struggle  took  place,  which 
terminated  in  a  change  of  Ministry.  It 
could  hardly  be  said  that  the  House  had 
settled  down  into  that  regular  division  of 

garties  which  it  usually  presented  ;  and  i£ 
e  should  be  so  unfortunate  as  to  say  any- 
thing which  might  be  distasteful  to  any 
section  of  the  House,  or  to  any  Member  of 
it,  in  commenting  upon  the  various  ques- 
tions which  arose  out  of  Her  Most  Qmciooa 
Majesty's  Speech,  he  trusted  it  would  bo* 
attributed  solely  to  his  want  of  practice 
and  experience.  Though  this  House  mi^^ht 
be  more  than  usually  divided  in  its  opi- 
nions, he  thought  he  should  not  be  wrong 
if  he  ventured  to  express  his  belief  that 
there  was  in  it  such  an  amount  of  faimeas 
and  independence  that  we  might  expect 
that  good  measures  would  receive  a  large 
amount  of  support  from  whichever  side 
they  might  emanate,  and  that  Uer  Ma- 
jes^'s  Government  would  *be  met  with 
that  fair  dealing  which  the  circumstances 
under  which  they  had  taken  Office  (and 
he  trusted  with  confidence  the  measures 
they  would  propose)  would  be  acknow- 
ledged to  have  entitled  them  to.  He  would 
not  pursue  this  train  of  thought  further. 
There  was  much  in  the  Speech  of  Her 
Majesty,  whose  most  gracious  presence  at 
the  opening  of  the  Session  had  been  a 
source  of  heartfelt  gratification  to  them, 
in  common  with  all  Her  loyal  subjects- 
there  was  much  in  that  Speech  which  was 
the  subject  of  congratulation,  and  nothing 
more  so  than  the  fact  that  she  was  able  to 
inform  them  that  friendly  relations  subsist 
with  all  foreign  Powers,  from  which  assur* 
ance  we  might  fairly  infer  that  we  should 
continue  to  enjoy  tiie  blessings  of  peace. 
The  policy  of  Great  Britain  was  assuredly 
a  policy  of  peace.    If  theve  was  one  thing 
that  distinguished  this  country  from  many 
others  it  was  that  she  had  long  ceased  to 
have  any  ambitious  desire  for  territorial 
aggrandizement.    Her  fiourishing  trade  at 
home  and  abroad,  the  enormous  develop- 
ment of  her  manufacturing  industry,  and 
her  sense  of  the  obligations  of  justicci 
humanity,  and  religion,  all  led  to  a  strong 
desire  on  the  part  of  every  class  for  the 
maintenance  of  peace.    With  this  object 
they  were  commonly  told  that  they  must 



[VsBBXiAvz  5, 1867) 

QramuB  Speech.         46 

avoid  interference  with  the  afiTairs  of  other 
coantries ;  but,  however  much  they  might 
desire  to  act  upon  this  policy,  they  could 
not  altogether  separate  themselves  from  the 
great  community  of  nations  which  every- 
where surrounded  them  and  their  posses- 
sions. .The  tendency  of  railways  and  other 
modem  improvements  was  to  bring  them 
more  into  contact  with  foreign  Governments 
and  peoples;  and  it  was  hardly  to  be 
hopedy  except  under  a  reign  of  universal 
peace  (whicb,  at  present  at  least,  appeared 
to  be  far  distant)  that  they  could  preserve 
intimate  relations  with  other  Powers, 
without  questions  arising  which  might 
cause  disputes  and  even  force  hostilities 
upon  them.  With  a  view  to  such  contin- 
gencies this  country  must  reserve  to  her- 
self the  right  and  power  of  defending  her 
own  dignity  and  honour  whensoever  and 
by  whomsoever  they  may  be  attacked.  To 
do  this  effectually  she  must  necessarily 
keep  up  the  efficiency  of  her  fleets  and 
armies,  and  strengthen  them  by  all  those 
modem  appliances  which  had  recently 
proved  so  formidable  and  effective,  and 
had  wholly  altered  the  nature  and  opera- 
tions of  modem  warfare.  And  they  must  not 
neglect  to  use  every  effort  for  ameliorating 
the  condition  and  securing  the  increased 
comforts  of  their  soldiery.  The  improved 
condition  of  all  classes  led  to  an  earnest 
desire  that  the  army  should  participate  in 
these  advantages.  The  necessity  also  of 
providing  an  efficient  army  of  reserve  must 
not  be  overlooked.  They  were,  therefore, 
fully  prepared  for  the  paragroph  in  Her 
Majesty's  Speech  which  called  upon  them 
to  sanction  some  necessary  expenditure 
for  this  purpose ;  and  he  felt  confident  that 
the  House  would  not  be  backward  in  pro- 
viding the  means  for  meeting  Her  Majes- 
ty's wishes,  at  the  same  time  that  they 
heartily  thanked  Her  Majesty  for  the 
gracious  announcement  that  the  Estimates 
had  been  prepared  with  every  regard  for 
combining  efficiency  and  economy.  The 
^ear  1866  had  witnessed  a  great  change 
in  the  map  of  Europe;  with  the  events 
by  which  that  change  had  been  effected 
hon.  Members  must  necessarily  be  familiar, 
for  the  circumstances  which  attended  it 
were  followed  by  every  one  in  this  coun- 
try with  the  deepest  interest.  Strongly 
as  he  might  feel  as  to  the  conduct  of  those 
who  were  engaged  in  that  short  but  san- 
guinary and  decisive  straggle,  he  should 
be  unwilling  to  provoke  a  discussion  or  to 
rake  up  those  differences  of  opinion  which 
no  doubt  existed  upon  this  question.  But, 

fully  admitting  the  expediency  of  avoid- 
ing,  as  far  as  possible,  intervention  in  the 
affairs  of  other  nations,  he  could  not  but 
feel  a  misgiving  as  to  whether  this  coun- 
try might  not  have  acted  with  more  firm- 
ness at  a  much  earlier  period,  and  used 
her  influence  successfully  for  the  preven- 
tion of  injustice  and  wrong.  But,  what- 
ever their  private  and  personal  feelings 
might  be,  they  could  not  but  concur  with 
Her  Majesty  in  the  hope  that  the  estab- 
lishment of  a  strong  ruling  Power  in  Ger- 
many would  prevent  any  renewal  of  hosti- 
lities, and  lead  to  a  long  and  lasting  peace 
in  Europe.  Her  Mojesty  had  been  gra- 
ciously pleased  to  announce  that  she  had 
suggested  to  the  Government  of  the  United 
States  a  mode  by  which  questions  arising 
out  of  t^e  late  Civil  War  in  America  may 
receive  an  amicable  solution.  This  subject 
had  long  occupied  the  attention  of,  and 
entailed  a  lengthened  correspondence  be- 
tween, England  and  the  United  States  of 
America.  It  was  a  question  which,  per- 
haps, admitted  of  some  doubt  whether  the 
occurrences  which  led  to  this  correspon- 
dence amounted  to  a  breach  of  the  Keu- 
trality  Laws  ;  but  much  ill-feeling  had 
been  created,  and  it  was  not  unnatural 
that  the  American  people  should  feel 
strongly  upon  the  subject.  It  was  there- 
fore to  be  hoped  that  the  suggestion  of 
Her  Majesty's  Government  would  bo  gene- 
rously accepted  by  the  American  Govern- 
ment in  the  same  spirit  in  which  it  had 
been  made,  and  eventually  lead  to  such  an 
arrangement  as  would  bring  about  a  tho- 
rough mutual  good  understanding,  and,  if 
necessary,  such  an  alteration  of  the  Neu- 
trality Laws  as  would  clear  up  all  doubts 
and  prevent  any  such  differences  arising 
for  the  future.  Upon  the  next  paragraph 
in  Her  Majesty's  Speech,  relating  to  Iho 
war  between  Spain  and  the  South  Ameri- 
can Republics,  it  was  not  his  intention  to 
comment  at  any  length.  The  wanton  de- 
struction of  property  of  a  private  nature 
in  the  bombardment  of  maritime  towns, 
even  in  warfare,  was  an  act  contrary  to 
all  the  principles  of  modem  civilization, 
and  it  was  not  unsatisfactory  to  know  that 
in  this  instance  this  was  not  done  with 
impunity.  Though  the  offers  of  mediation 
made  by  Her  Majesty^s  Government  in  the 
hope  of  restoring  peace  to  these  distant 
countries  had  not  been  accepted,  it 
was  much  to  be  hoped,  in  the  interests  of 
humanity,  that  all  questions  which  had 
unhappily  arisen  between  these  descen- 
dants of  a  common  origin  might  speedily 




li&r  Majesty  <m 


'be  settled  under  the  aaspices  of  a  friendly 
Power.    It  was  gratifying  to  learn  that 
the  efforts  of  Her  Majesty  and  her  allies 
had  been  directed  to  bringing  about  such 
improved  relations  between  the  Forte  and 
its  Christian  subjects  as  were  not  incon- 
sistent with  the  sovereign  rights  of  the 
Sultan.     As  a  Christian  nation  they  could 
not  but  feel  sympathy  with  all  Christians 
who  lived  under  Turkish  rule ;  but  it  was 
satisfactory  to  find  that  Her  Majesty  had 
not  found  it  necessary  to  exercise  any  ac- 
tive interference  in  those  internal  disturb- 
ances which  had  prevailed  in  some  pro- 
vinces of  the  Turkish  Empire,  and  broken 
out  in  actual  insurrection  in  Crete ;  and 
it  was  to  be  hoped  that  Her  Majesty  would 
now  be  able  to  promote  with  effect  those 
benevolent  objects  that  her  effprts  had 
been  directed,  in  conjunction   with  her 
allies  the  Emperor  of  the  French  and  the 
Emperor  of  Russia,  to  insure.    Her  Ma- 
jesty also  announced  that  she  had  acknow- 
ledged Frince  Charles  of  Hohenzollem, 
who  had  been  chosen  by  the  inhabitants 
of  the  Danubian  Frincipalities  as  their 
ruler ;  and  it  was  to  be  hc^ed  that  his 
accession  would  lead  to  a  firm  union  of 
those  provinces,  and  be  followed  by  that 
prosperity  which  was  the  natural  conse- 
quence and,  at  the  same  time,  the  surest 
test  of  good  government.     Her  Majesty 
further  informed  them  that  she  had  com- 
manded a  Bill  to  be  submitted  to  Farlia* 
ment  for  the  Confederation  of  the  British 
North  American  Frovinces.    At  no  period 
during  the  history  of  this  country  had  the 
relations  between  the  respective  provinces 
and  the  Home  Government  been  in  a  more 
satisfactory  condition  than  they  were  at 
present.     At  no  time  had  there  been  a 
more  cordial  feeling  existing  between  them 
and  the  mother  country.     They  had  seen 
how  willingly  the  Canadians  had  under- 
taken the  organization  of  Volunteer  forces 
and  the  training  of  militia,  and  freely  dis- 
bursed the  funds  necessary  for  the  defence 
of  our  mutual  interests.    England  could 
not  but  reciprocate  this  feeling ;  and  the 
noble  manner  in  which  the  inhabitants  of 
these  provinces  had  come  forward  to  de- 
fend themselves,  and  their  connection  with 
this  country,  mast  make  every  Englishman 
feel  a  desire  that  we  should  do  our  part 
to  confirm  and  ratify  a  scheme  of  Confe- 
deration which  had  received  the  sanction 
of  the  authorities  and  the  great  majority 
of  the  people  of  these  countries.    It  was 
understood  that  at  present  certain  pro- 
vinces had  not  joined  in  the  plan  of  Con- 

Mr.  J)$  Qrey 

federation ;  but  if,  as  it  seemed  the  Go- 
vernment had  reason  to  believe,  the  pro- 
posed  Confederation,   so  far   as  it  was 
intended  to  be  carried  out,  was  the  real 
desire  of  the  people,  and  was  likely,  to 
strengthen  them  against  possible  enemies, 
it  must  be  wise  that  we  should  give  a 
willing  assent  to  their  wishes,  and  rejoice 
to  see  a  United  Canadia  arise  in  the  place 
of  the  now  separate,  but  not  unfriendly, 
provinces.     One  of  those  dreadful  famines 
which   seemed  to   occur  periodically  in. 
India  had,  during  the  past  year,  attacked 
part  of  the  Bengal  and  Madras  Fresiden- 
cies.     Great  difficulty  appeared   to  have 
been  experienced  in  conveying  the  neces- 
sary relief  to  the  suffering  districts,  and 
had  not  an  abundant  harvest,  under  the 
blessing  of  Frovidenoe,  helped  to  allay  the 
sufferings  which  at  one  time  carried  off 
thousands  every  week,  it  was  impossible 
to  calculate  what  might  have  been  the 
extent  of  those  lamentable  consequences 
which  neither  the  liberal  flow  of  private 
charity,  which  was  always  so  readily  forth- 
coming, nor  the  action  of  a  sympathizing 
Government  which  the  emergency  called 
forth  could  ever  have  been  sufficient  to 
avert.     There  is  no  doubt  an  ample  open- 
ing in  India  for  those  great  public  works 
and  improvements  which  were  calculated 
to  develop  the  resources  of  an  Empire ; 
and  when  communication  was  better  es- 
tablished by  means  of  railways  or  canals 
the  food  produced  intone  part  of  the  coun- 
try, which  might  not,  perhaps,  be  affected 
by  the  destructive  causes  operating  upon 
another,  would  more  easily  be  conveyed 
to    the   point    where  the   necessity  for 
it  occurred,  and  relief   would    thus   be 
more  immediately  afforded.    Kor  did  it 
seem   that   the  primary  cause  was  en- 
tirely beyond  the  control  of  human  fore- 
sight.    In  a  country  like  India,   whose 
rivers  and  streams  were  numerous,  where 
in  seasons  of  unusual  drought  in  many 
vast  districts  the  produce  of  cultivation 
was    entirely   destroyed,    or    cultivation 
itself  rendered  impossible,   much  might 
surely  be  done  by  means  of  irrigation,  and 
a  judicious  expenditure  begun  in   time 
might  secure  the  inhabitants  of  those  dis- 
tricts in  a  great  measure  from  the  recur- 
rence of  similar  calamities.     Farliament 
must  heartily  rdoico  with  Her  Majesty 
that  it  was  no  longer  necessary  for  the 
safety  of  her  subjects  in  Ireland  to  continue 
the  suspension  of  the  Habeas  Corpus  Act. 
They  must  be  thankful  to  feel  that  the 
attempt  at  insurrection  there  had  been 


Her  Mod 

{Fkbbuaet5|  1867) 

OraciouB  Speech.  60* 

saocessfaU J  quelled  and  kept  under  control 
bj  the  £rmnees  with  which  it  was  met, 
tempered  as  that  firmness  was  by  the  liberal 
mercy  of  the  Goyemment^  and  that  without 
a  angle  outbreak,  or  the  shedding,  ho  was 
glad  to  saj.  of  one  drop  of  Irish  blood, 
showing  that  when  a  Government  were 
determined  upon  a  decisiye  course  of  action 
which  they  felt  to  be  the  best  and  surest 
means  of  putting  a  stop  to  threats  of  re- 
bellion, offenders  against  the  law  would 
rarely  yenture  to  come  to  a  direct  issue 
with  them,  and  that  there  was  little  real 
danger  to  the  security  of  life  and  property 
which  it  was  the  first  duty  of  every  Go- 
vernment  to   maintain.     But,  while  we 
congratulated  ourselves  on  the  result  of  the 
firmness  and  decision  of  those  whose  pri- 
mary duty  it  was  to  determine  the  course 
of  action  to  be  pursued,  we  must  not  forget 
to  give  due  credit  to  those  on  whom  was 
thrown  the  x  arduous  and  delicate  duty  of 
ctrrjring  out  the  policy  of  the  Government. 
In  these  days,  when  the  liberty  of  com- 
menting on  the  conduct  of  public  servants 
wss  so  freely  indulged  in,  their  responsi- 
bility was   enormously  increased,  and  it 
was  satisfactory  to  feel  that  in  this  case  the 
condact  of  those  who  were  engaged  had 
met  with  approval  from  all  parties.     One 
of  the  most  gratifying  circumstances  at- 
tending the  past  crisis  was  the  fact,  so 
graciously  announced  by  Her  Majesty,  of 
the  hostility  manifested  by  all  classes  and 
creeds  to  the  authors  of  these  disturbances. 
Indeed,  the  stand  taken  against  Fenianism 
by  the  large   body  of  influential  Eoman 
Catholics,   headed  by  their  clergy,  must 
have  proved  of  the  greatest  assistance  and 
support  to   Her    Hajesty's   Government. 
Under  these  circumstances,  it  was  not  un- 
natural that  the  Government  should  have 
been  anxious  to  consider  whether  anything 
could  be  done  to  mitigate  the  feeling  of 
discontent  which  too  frequently,  and  most 
unhappily  for  its  prosperity,  prevailed  in 
that  portion  of  Her  Majesty's  dominions. 
Among  the  questions  which  appeared  to 
canse  that  discontent,  one  in  particular 
arose  out  of  the  relations  of  landlord  and 
tenant,  and   when  we  were  told  that  a 
measure  was  in  contemplation  for  securing 
to  tenants  compensation  for  farm  improve- 
ments, we  might,  perhaps,  look  upon  the 
announcement  as  a  graceful  tribute  to  the 
loyalty  and  good  feeling  which  had  actu- 
ated so  large  a  portion  of  the  population 
of  Ireland.     To  us  in  England  it  appeared 
almost  difficult  to  imagine  that  there  should 
be  a  necessify  for  any  special  legislation  on 

/  this  point.    Our  tenancies  were  subject  to 
I  certain  conditions,  to  which  both  parties 
agreed  in  the  first  instance ;  in  the  absence 
of  previous  agreement  the  custom  of  the 
country  intervened  to  regulate  those  con- 
ditions ;  and  all  that  the  law  had  to  do  was 
to  secure  that  the  conditions  agreed  upon, 
or  established  by  the  custom  of  the  country, 
should  be  carried  out.     But  the  circum- 
stances of  Ireland  were  exceptional ;  and 
he  was  far  from  saying  that  improvements 
in  that  respect  might  not  be  introduced 
with  advantage  provided  they  were  framed 
with  a  due  regard  to  the  rights  of  property 
which  never  could  be  ignored  in  Ireland 
or  in  any  other  country.     He  believed  it 
might  be  stated,  without  fear  of  contradic- 
tion, that  Ireland  was  improving  rapidly 
in  prosperity  and   wealth.     It  was  said 
that  her  cattle  had  increased  50  per  cent 
and  her  sheep  100  per  cent  in  twenty 
years,  while  the  entire  number  of  acres 
under  crops  had    also  increased.      Her 
great  desideratum  was  that  internal  tran- 
quillity and  respect  for  law  which  would 
alone  allay  the  distrust  felt  by  owners 
of  capital  for  investments  in  Ireland— 
distrust  which   banished    from    her  soil 
much  of  the  enterprize  and  industry  that 
would    enable  her  to   run  the  race  of 
competition  with  other  nations.    The  de- 
partment of  agriculture  for  which  she  was 
peculiarly  suited  was  the  feeding  and  rear- 
ing of  live  stock ;    and  in  manufactures, 
which  in  some  districts  had  been  carried 
on  with  no  little  success,  her  redundant 
population  gave  her  immense  advantages. 
Whether  the  suggestion  made  by  a  noble 
Lord,  a  Member  of  the  other  House  of 
Parliament,  in  one  of  the  very  able  letters 
which  he  had  published  for  the  registra- 
tion of  farm  improvements  could  be  carried 
out  he  (Mr.  De  Grey)  would  not  venture 
to  express  an  opinion,  but  it  would  no 
doubt  receive  tho  careful  attention  of  the 
Government.     A  few  weeks  ago  it  was 
hoped  that  at  the  meeting  of  Parliament 
Her  Majesty  would  have  been  able  to  an- 
nounce that  the  cattle  plague  had  ceased 
in  the  kingdom,  but  it  still  appeared  to 
linger  in  certain  districts,  and  there  had 
been  a  recent  and  serious  outbreak  in  the 
metropolis.    While  any  cases  occurred  we 
could  not  consider  ourselves  safe  from  an 
extensive  recurrence  of  this   formidablo 
disease  ;  and  its  continued  existence  in  an 
alarming  degree  on   the  Continent,  and 
particularly  in  Holland,  rendered  it  neces- 
sary that  we  should  not  relax  those  pre- 
cautions which  had  been  so  successful  in. 




B&r  Mdf$9tff  oil 


checkingi  if  not  in  entinly  suppressing, 
its  ravages.  Snggestions  had  been  made 
to  the  GoTemment  by  the  Boyal  and  other 
great  agricoltoral  societies  which,  in  com- 
bination with  the  experience  obtained 
during  the  last  year,  would,  he  felt  snre, 
lead  to  their  proposing  to  Parliament  such 
measures  as  might  be  necessary  for  con- 
tinuing and  improying,  according  to  cir- 
cumstfmces,  regulations  that  had  conferred 
such  great  and  acknowledged  benefits  on 
the  country.  Her  Majesty  also  acknow- 
ledged with  deep  thankfulness  the  abate- 
ment of  the  visitation  of  cholera,  which  at 
one  time  threatened  alarming  consequences 
in  this  country ;  but  the  superior  know- 
ledge of  the  causes  of  this  pestilence  ob- 
tained by  science,  and  the  attention  to 
precautions  suggested  by  that  superior 
knowledge,  had  checked,  and  it  was  to  be 
hoped  would  continue  to  preserve  us,  under 
the  blessing  of  Providence,  from  the  ra- 
vages of  this  disease.  The  evils  prevailing 
in  the  mercantile  naval  service  had  spe- 
cially attracted  public  criticism,  and  had 
been  found  to  require  immediate  attention. 
When  men  were  employed  upon  services 
to  which  any  unusual  amount  of  risk  at- 
tached— and  a  seaman's  life  must  always  be 
a  life  of  danger^every  care  should  be  taken 
that  the  ordinary  comforts  of  life  should 
be  secured  to  them  as  far  as  was  practi- 
cable, especially  when  the  absence  of  these 
comforts  conduced  to  sickness  and  disease. 
Such  a  service  could  not  fail  to  be  unpopu- 
lar if  the  common  requirements  necessary 
for  the  preservation  of  health  were  not 
attended  to,  and  our  merchant  seamen, 
who  constituted  one  of  the  hardiest  of  our 
working  classes,  and  to  whom  we  look  for 
the  best  supply  of  sailors  for  the  Royal 
Navy,  should  at  least  have  no  cause  to  envy 
the  condition  of  those  who  entered  the 
same  profession  in  the  service  of  other 
countries.  It  was  satisfactory  to  learn 
that  the  Government  were  prepared  with 
a  measure  to  improve  the  laws  regulating 
the  care  of  the  sick  and  other  poor  in  the 
metropolis,  and  for  the  re-distribution  of 
some  of  the  charges  of  relief  therein.  The 
question  was  one  which  undoubtedly  re- 
quired immediate  attention.  Our  hos- 
pitals and  institutions  for  the  care  of  the 
sick  poor  were  a  glory  and  an  honour  to 
the  country,  but  private  charity  could  only 
reach  a  small  portion  of  the  misery  which 
must  exist  among  a  population  estimated 
at  3,000,000.  It  was  generally  admitted 
that  our  workhouse  system  was  inadequate 
to  the  requirementa  of  suoli  a  population. 

and  the  public  mind  had  been  disturbed  by 
recent  revelations  of  what  had  been  going 
on  in  at  least  a  portion  of  our  metropoli- 
tan workhouses  and  their  infirmaries.  He 
could  not  think  that  Parliament  did  its 
duty  if  it  left  to  private  charity  that 
which  was,  in  fact,  one  of  the  first  duties 
of  the  State ;  but  there  would  be  no  need 
to  interfere  with  those  noble  institutions 
which  were  an  admirable  supplement,  bat 
which  could  never  supersede  the  neoessity 
of  a  State  provision  for  the  care  of  the 
poor  in  sickness.  He  now  came  to  that 
paragraph  in  Iler  Majesty's  Speech  which 
referred  to  the  vexed  question  of  Reform. 
During  the  debates  which  took  place  ia 
the  last  Session,  it  seemed  to  have  been 
the  general  opinion  of  the  House  that 
the  representation  could  not  be  left  in  the 
state  in  which  it  now  was.  The  princi- 
pal question  was  whether  it  was  possible, 
with  safety  to  the  State,  to  admit  a  large 
proportion  of  the  working  classes  into  the 
constituency.  If  this  could  be  done  with- 
out danger  to  the  Constitution,  the  feeling 
of  most  men's  minds  would  incline  to  their 
admission.  But  our  whole  system  was 
now  one  of  compensation,  in  which  all 
great  interests  were  represented  in  certain 
proportions.  These  considerations  most 
not  be  neglected  in  dealing  with  the  ques- 
tion of  the  admission  of  a  large  body  of 
working  men  to  the  franchise,  and  Par- 
liament must  feel  satisfaction  in  hearing 
that  Her  Majesty's  Government  contem- 
plated measures  which  would  not  unduly 
disturb  the  balance  of  political  power.  If 
the  country  generally  desired  Reform,  it 
did  not  desire  revolution.  If  Parliament 
was  prepared  to  give  to  the  working  classes 
increased  power,  it  was  not  prepared  step 
by  step  to  introduce  a  democracy.  But  in 
dealing  with  this  difficult  question  one  thing 
was  certain,  that  unless  all  parties  were 
ready  to  unite  to  support  measures  founded 
upon  a  careful  consideration  of  all  the 
points  involved  in  the  various  discussions 
which  had  taken  place,  and  the  volumes 
which  had  been  written  on  the  subject, 
practically  speaking,  no  measure  of  Reform 
was  ever  likely  to  be  carried  in  this 
House.  Parliament  was  informed  that  its 
attention  would  be  called  to  this  subject ; 
but  he  would  venture  to  express  an  opinion 
that  if  the  Government  should  have  reason 
to  believe  that  the  subject  would  be  ap- 
proached rather  in  a  party  spirit  than 
with  a  due  regard  to  all  the  various  in- 
terests which  required  to  be  represented 
in  this  great  oountryi  they  would  soaroely 



{Febbttabt  6|  1867} 

Oracums  Speech,  54 

be  prudent  in  undertaking  the  task  of  re- 
vising the  Constitation  in  the  face  of  a 
hostile  an&  powerful  Opposition.  The 
next  question  to  which  Her  Majesty  drew 
attention  was  that  of  trades  unions.  The 
law  with  respeet  to  trades  unions,  dating 
from  the  year  1825,  was  that  no  combina* 
tion  of  workmen  for  raising  wages  should 
be  unlawful  so  long  as  no  violence,  threats, 
or  intimidation  be  used.  This  law  ap- 
peared to  be  founded  on  true  principles  of 
justice,  but  it  was  evaded  in  practice,  and 
a  system  was  in  opeiation  by  which  work- 
men were  forced  to  join  unions  and  com- 
binations against  their  will,  and  in  direct 
contravention  of  the  law,  and  outrages  had 
occurred  with  the  object  of  intimidating 
both  masters  and  men.  On  the  other 
hand,  there  were  complaints  on  the  part 
of  the  men  of  combinations  among  tho 
masters.  Of  course,  the  masters  could,  on 
no  principle  of  justice,  be  deprived  of  a 
right  which  they  possess  only  in  common 
with  those  who  might  combine  against 
them.  The  evils  that  had  been  en- 
gendered by  these  disputes  were  not  only 
injurious  to  both,  and  interfered  most  ma- 
terially with  the  general  industry  of  the 
countiy,  but  threatened  to  transfer  that 
manufacturing  prosperity  which  this  coun- 
try had  so  long  and  pre-eminently  enjoyed 
to  our  great  rivals  on  the  Continent.  Under 
these  circumstances,  he  felt  confident  that 
all  classes  throughout  the  country  would 
hear  with  feelings  of  satisfaction  and  grati- 
tude that  an  inquiry  was  to  be  instituted 
into  the  organization  of  trades  unions  and 
other  similar  associations,  whether  of  work- 
men or  employers,  with  a  view  of  saggesting 
a  practical  remedy  for  that  which  was,  or 

so  large  a  programme  inclined  him  to 
think  that  such,  at  least,  was  their  ex- 
pectation ;  at  all  events,  it  was  a  proof 
that  they  had  not  been  idle  during  the 
recess.  It  will  be  for  Parliament  to  take 
these  measures  into  consideration,  and  give 
jeflfect  to  such  of  them  as  it  might  approve. 
He  had  now  only  to  thank  the  House  for 
the  kind  patience  with  which  they  had 
heard  him.  The  hon.  Gentleman  con- 
cluded by  moving — 

"  That  an  humble  Address  be  presented  to  Her 
Majesty,  to  convey  the  thanks  of  this  House  for 
Her  Majesty's  Most  Gracious  Speech  from  the 
Throne : 

"  Humbly  to  assure  Her  Majesty  that  we  re- 
joice to  learn  that  Her  Majesty's  relations  with 
Foreign  Powers  are  on  a  friendly  and  satisfaotory 
footing,  and  that  we  join  with  Her  Migesty  in 
the  hope  that  the  termination  of  the  War  in  which 
Prussia,  Austria,  and  Italy  have  been  engaged 
may  tend  to  the  establishment  of  durable  Peaoe 
in  Europe  : 

'*  To  assure  Her  Majesty  that  we  learn  with 
satisfaction  that  Uer  Majesty  has  suggested  to 
the  Government  of  the  United  States  a  mode  by 
which  the  questions  pending  between  the  two 
Countries,  arising  out  of  the  late  Civil  War,  may 
receive  an  amicable  solution,  and  which,  if  met, 
as  Her  Majesty  trusts  it  will  be,  in  a  correspond- 
ing spirit,  will  remove  all  grounds  of  possible 
misunderstanding,  and  promote  relations  of  oor* 
dial  friendship : 

*' Humbly  to  express  to  Her  Majesty  our 
participation  in  Hor  regret  that  the  War  be- 
tween Spain  and  the   Republics  of  Chili  and 

might  speedily  become,  a  national  calamity. /«™»"V<"^,'i'»«®»'  ^^  *^^  ^^®  good  offices  of 

There  were  other  measures  of  internal 
improvement  promised  by  Her  Majesty's 
Government,  but  to  these  he  would  not 
more  particularly  refer,  as  he  felt  that  he 
had  already  too  long  trespassed  upon  the 
attention  of  the  House.  He  feai^  that 
many  of  the  subjects  to  which  he  had  al- 
luded he  had  touched  upon  somewhat  su- 
perficially ;  but  the  multipHcity  of  subjects 
and  his  own  inexperience  might,  perhaps, 
be  oonsidered  a  sufficient  excuse.  It  was 
to  be  hoped  that  the  Session  would  not  be 
oooupied,  like  the  last,  by  fruitless  and 
unprofitable  discussions,  but  that  the  mea- 
sures of  improvement  proposed  by  the  Go- 
vernment would  be  allowed  to  be  submit- 
ted to  the  careful  and  candid  consideration 
of  the  House,  and  the  fact  that  Her  Ma- 
jestf 'b  Government  had  brought  forward 

Her  Majesty's  Government,  in  conjunction  with 
that  of  the  Emperor  of  the  French,  should  have 
fiiiled  to  effect  a  reconciliation ;  and  to  assure 
Her  Majesty  that  it  wiU  be  a  oaose  of  satisfiu)tion 
to  us  if,  either  by  agreement  between  the  parties 
themselves,  or  by  the  mediation  of  any  other 
Friendly  Power,  Peaoe  should  be  restored : 

"  To  thank  Her  Majesty  for  Infonniog  us  that 
discontent,  prevailing  in  some  Provinces  of  the 
Turkish  Empire,  has  broken  out  in  actual  insur- 
rection in  Crete ;  and  that,  in  common  with  Hor 
Majesty's  AUies,  the  Emperor  of  the  French  and 
the  Emperor  of  Russia,  Her  Majesty  has  ab- 
stained from  any  active  interference  in  those  in* 
temal  disturbances ;  but  that  the  efforts  of  Her 
Migesty  and  Her  Allies  have  been  direeted  to 
bringing  about  such  improved  relations  between 
the  Porto  aad  its  Ohristtan  SabjooU  as  are  not 


55  AUrm  to 

ineonsisUnt  with  the  Sovereign  RighU  of  tho 

"  To  thank  Her  Majeatj  for  informing  ns  that 
the  protracted  negotiations,  which  arose  oat  of 
the  acceptance  hy  Prince  Charles  of  Hohenzollem 
of  the  Goremment  of  the  Danuhtan  Principali- 
ties, hare  heen  happily  terminated  hy  an  arrange- 
ment to  which  the  Porto  has  given  its  ready 
adhesion,  and  which  has  been  sanotioncdhy  the 
concurrenoe  of  all  tho  Powers,  signatarles  of  tho 
Treaty  of  1860 : 

«  numbly  to  convey  our  thanks  to  Iler  Ma- 
jesty for  informing  us  that  Resolutions  in  favour 
of  a  more  intimate  Union  of  the  Provinces  of 
Canada,  Nova  Scotia,  and  New  Brunswick  hare 
been  passed  by  their  several  Legislatures,  and 
that  Delegates,  duly  authorised,  and  representing 
all  olasses  of  Colonial  party  and  opinion,  have 
conourred  in  the  conditions  upon  which  such  an 
Union  may  be  best  effected ;  and  to  assure  Her 
Majesty  that  wo  will  give  our  most  careful  atten- 
tion to  the  Bill  which,  in  aocordanoe  with  the 
wishes  of  those  Colonies,  Her  Majesty  has  di- 
rected to  be  submitted  to  us,  and  which,  by  the 
consolidation  of  Colonial  interests  and  resources, 
will,  we  trust,  give  strength  to  tho  several  Pro- 
vinces as  members  of  tho  same  Empiro,  and  ani- 
mated by  feelings  of  loyalty  to  the  same  Sove- 
reign : 

«  To  aasure  Her  Majesty  that  we  have  heard 
with  deep  sorrow  that  the  calamity  of  Famine 
has  pressed  heavily  on  Her  Majesty's  Subjects 
in  some  parts  of  India :  and  to  thank  Her  Ma- 
jesty for  informing  us  that  instructions  were 
issued  to  Her  Majesty's  Government  in  that 
Country  to  make  the  utmost  exertions  to  mitigate 
the  distress  which  prevailed  during  the  autumn  of 
last  year,  and  that  the  blessing  of  an  abundant 
harvest  has  since  that  time  materially  improved 
tho  condition  of  the  suffering  districts  : 

'*  Humbly  to  assure  Her  Majesty  that  we  have 
observed  with  deep  concern  that  tho  persevering 
efforts  and  unscrupulous  assertions  of  treasonable 
Conspirators  abroad  have  during  the  last  autumn 
excited  the  hopes  of  some  disaffected  persona  in 
Ireland,  and  the  apprehensions  of  tho  loyal  popu- 
lation ;  but  that  we  learn  with  the  greatest  satis- 
faction that  the  firm,  yet  temperate,  exercise  of 
the  powers  entrusted  to  tho  Executive,  and  the 
hostility  manifested  against  the  Conspiracy  by 
men  of  all  classes  and  creeds,  have  greatly  tended 
to  restore  publio  confidence,  and  rendered  hope- 
less any  attempt  to  disturb  the  general  tranquillity; 
and  that,  with  Her  Majesty,  we  trust  that  we  may 
consequently  be  enabled  to  dispense  with  the  oon- 

Her  Mqfeatff  on 


tinnanoe  of  any  exceptional  Legislation  for  tbafe 
part  of  Her  Majesty's  Dominions : 

''  To  assure  Her  Majesty  that,  w  ith  Her,  wo 
join  in  acknowledging,  with  deep  gratitude  to 
Almighty  God,  the  great  decrease  which  has 
taken  place  in  the  Cholera,  and  in  the  Pestilence 
which  has  attacked  our  Cattle;  and  that  wo 
regret  that  the  continued  prevalence  of  the  latter 
in  some  Foreign  Countries,  and  its  occasional 
re-appearanoe  in  this,  will  still  render  necessary 
some  special  measures  of  precaution ;  but  that  wo 
trust  that  the  visitation  of  the  former  will  lead 
to  inoreased  attention  to  those  sanitary  measures 
which  experience  has  shown  to  be  its  best  pre- 
ventive : 

"To  thank  Her  Majesty  for  informing  us  that, 
estimating  as  of  the  highest  importance  an  ade« 
quate  supply  of  pure  and  wholesome  Water,  Her 
Majesty  has  directed  the  issue  of  a  Commission 
to  inquire  into  the  best  means  of  permanentljr 
securing  speh  a  supply  for  the  Metropolis,  and  for 
the  principal  towns  in  densely  peopled  districts  of 
the  Kingdom : 

« Humbly  to  thank  Her  Majesty  for  having 
directed  that  the  Estimates  of  the  ensuing  year 
shall  be  laid  before  us,  and  for  having  caused 
them  to  be  prepared  with  a  due  regard  to  eco- 
nomy, and  to  the  maintenance  of  efflcienoy  in  the 
Public  Service ;  and  to  assure  Her  Majesty  that 
we  will  cheerfully  consider  any  proposal  for  a 
moderate  Expenditure,  calculated  to  improve  the 
condition  of  Her  Majesty's  Soldiers,  and  to  lay 
the  foundation  of  an  efilcient  Army  of  Reserve : 

'*  To  thank  Her  Majesty  for  informing  us  that 
our  attention  will  again  be  called  to  the  state  of 
tho  Representation  of  the  People  in  Parliament ; 
and,  with  Der  Majesty,  humbly  to  express  our 
hope  that  our  deliberations,  conducted  in  a  spirit 
of  moderation  and  mutual  forbearance,  may  lead 
to  the  adoption  of  measures  which,  without  un- 
duly disturbing  the  balanee  of  Political  Power, 
shall  freely  extend  the  Elective  Franchise  : 

"Humbly  to  express  our  thanks  to  Her  Ma- 
jesty for  informing  us  that  the  frequent  occur- 
rence of  disagreements  between  Employers  of 
Labour  and  their  Workmen,  causing  much  private 
suffering  and  public  loss,  and  occasionally  leading, 
as  is  alleged,  to  aets  of  outrage  and  violence,  baa 
induced  Her  Majesty  to  issue  a  Commission  to 
inquire  into  and  report  upon  the  organisation  of 
Trades  Unions  and  other  Associations,  whether 
of  Workmen  or  Employers,  with  power  to  suggest 
any  improvement  of  the  Law  for  their  mutual 
benefit;  and  to  assure  Her  Majesty  that  any 
application  whioh  shall  be  made  to  us  for  Par- 



[PMhmAxtli,  1867) 

Ormoui  Spiich.  68 

tianeiiUry  Powen^  neoeMAry  to  nako  ihU  in- 
jury dEective,  ibaJl  reoaire  our  Mrnett  aiten- 

"To  conTey  to  Her  Majesty  our  humble 
thanks  for  inibnniog  ixb  that  Bills  will  be  laid  be- 
kxt  OS  for  the  extension  of  the  beneficial  proTi-> 
sions  of  the  Factory  Aets  to  other  trades,  spe- 
cioDy  reported  on  by  the  Royal  Commission  on 
tLe  Employment  of  Children ;  and  for  the  better 
rffoiatioD,  aecording  to  the  principle  of  those 
Acts,  of  workshops  where  women  and  children 
ire  largely  employed : 

'^To  thank  Her  Majesty  for  informing  us  that 
the  condition  of  the  Mercantile  Marino  has  at- 
tracted the  sciious  attention  of  Iler  Majesty, 
and  that  measures  will  be  submitted  to  us  with  a 
Tiew  to  increase  the  efficiency  of  that  important 
Senrice : 

*"  Humbly  to  express  to  Her  Majesty  the  satis- 
&etiott  with  which  we  have  learnt  that  relaxations 
hare  been  lately  introduced  into  the  Navigation 
Laws  of  France  ;  that  Her  Majesty  has  expressed 
to  the  Emperor  of  the  French  Uer  readiness  to 
submit  to  Parliament  a  proposal  for  the  extino- 
UoQ,  on  equitable  termr,  of  the  exemptions  from 
local  charges  on  Shipping  which  are  still  enjoyed 
If  a  limited  number  of  individuals  in  British 
Ports;  and  that  His  Imperial  Majesty  has,  in 
anticipation  of  this  step,  already  admitted  British 
Ships  to  the  advantage  of  the  new  Law ;  and  to 
assure  Her  Majesty  that  we  will  give  our  caro- 
fal  attention  to  the  Bill  upon  this  subject  which 
Her  Majesty  has  directed  to  be  forthwith  laid 
before  us : 

«•  Humbly  to  aasore  Her  Majesty  that  we  will 
give  our  moet  serious  consideration  to  the  Bill 
which  will  be  submitted  to  us  for  making  better 
pfovision  for  the  arrangement  of  the  a£birs  of 
Railway  Companies  which  are  unable  to  meet 
their  engagements ;  as  also  to  any  measures  for 
inproving  the  management  of  Sick  and  other 
Poor  in  the  Metropolis,  and  for  a  re-distribution 
of  some  of  the  charges  for  relief  therein : 

**  To  assure  Her  Majesty  that  we  will  give  our 
most  earefal  attention  to  the  measures  for  the 
Amendment  of  the  Law  of  Bankruptcy,  and  the 
Consolidation  of  the  Courts  of  Probate  and  Di- 
vorce and  Admiralty  ;  also  to  the  means  of  dis- 
posing, with  greater  despatch  and  frequency,  of 
the  increasing  business  in  the  Superior  Courts  of 
Common  Law,  and  at  the  Assizes : 

**  Humbly  to  thank  Her  Majesty  for  informing 
as  that  the  relations  between  Landlord  and 
Tenant  in  Ireland  have  engaged  the  anxious  at- 
(intiM  of  Uer  Majesty;  and  that  %  Bill  wiU 

be  laid  belbre  na  wUeh,  without  interfering  with 
the  rights  of  property,  will  offer  direct  encourage- 
ment to  Occupiers  of  Land  to  improve  their  hold- 
ings, and  provide  a  simple  mode  of  obtaining 
oompeniation  for  permanent  improvements  : 

« Humbly  to  assure  Her  Majesty  that,  with 
Her,  we  pray  that  our  labours  may,  under  the 
blessing  of  Providence,  oonduoo  to  the  pros- 
perity of  the  Country,  and  the  happiness  of  Uer 

Mb.  GRAYES  :  Hr.  Speaker— I  have  so 
inyariably  experienced  the  indulgence  of 
the  House  when,  on  previous  occasions, 
I  have  ventured  to  address  it,  during 
the  short  time  I  have  had  the  honour 
to  be  a  Member,  that  I  feel  I  should  bo 
doubting  that  experience  if  I  sought  on 
this  occasion  to  enlist  its  sympathy  by  any 
formal  appeal  to  its  forbearance.  In  un- 
dertaking the  onerous  task  of  seconding 
the  Addbress  in  reply  to  Her  Majesty's 
most  gracious  Speech  from  the  Throne,  no 
one  can  have  felt  more  conscious  than  I 
did  myself  how  little  personal  considera- 
tion influenced  the  selection.  But  sharing 
in  the  representation  of  a  constituency 
possessing  no  small  commercial  distinc- 
tion, I  hope  it  may  be  thought  that 
I  am  warranted  in  accepting  the  task. 
Rarely  has  a  Speech  been  delivered  from 
the  Throne  which  has  been  looked  for- 
ward to  with  more  intense  interest  than 
that  which  it  had  been  our  good  fortune 
to  listen  to  to-day,  and  I  have  the  highest 
hopes  that  it  will  not  only  be  satisfactory 
to  the  House,  but  that  it  will  prove  ac- 
ceptable to  the  country  at  large.  The 
Speech  from  the  Throne  embraces  mea- 
sures of  the  highest  usefulness,  aiming 
largely  at  the  amelioration  of  the  poorer 
classes  of  society,  and  involving  questions  of 
the  highest  moment.  It  will,  I  have  no 
doubt,  commend  itself  to  the  anxious  con- 
sideration of  the  House.  The  felicitous 
expressions  in  which  the  hon.  Mover  has 
conveyed  his  pleasure  at  Her  Majesty's 
presence  to-day  will  be  shared  in  by  every 
Member  of  this  House,  and  will  excite 
throughout  the  country  feelings  of  the 
greatest  satisfaction. 

In  the  few  remarks  with  which  I 
intend  to  trouble  the  House,  I  must  ne- 
cessarily travel  over  some  of  the  ground 
that  has  been  touched  upon  by  the 
hon.  Member  for  West  Norfolk;  but  I 
shall  endeavour  to  confine  myself  more 
particularly  to  those  points  which  may 
be  considered  to  possess  more  than  or- 






dinaiy  interest  at  the  present  moment. 
I  think  I  am  justified  in  giving  the  pre- 
eminence among  the  questions  connected 
with  our  foreign  polioy  to  that  of  the 
differences  which  have  arisen  between  us 
and  the  United  States — differences  arising 
out  of  intricate  questions  of  International 
Law,  and  which  hare  been  made  during 
the  past  year  the  subject  of  a  yery  able 
diplomatic  correspondence.  Claims  and 
counter-claims  have  been  advanced  in  the 
full  consciousness  of  mutual  right;  and 
it  will  be  a  matter  of  the  greatest 
satisfaction  if  a  mode  can  be  suggested 
by  which  these  claims  can  be  amicably 
and  fairly  settled.  I  believe  that  when 
they  were  originally  put  forward,  the  mo- 
ment was  inopportune  —  that  concession 
might  then  have  been  construed  into  fear 
on  the  one  hand,  or  to  threats  on  the  other. 
But  noW|  happUy,  a  better  feeling  exists. 
There  is  a  mutual  desire  to  do  each  other 
j  ustice.  England,  above  all  other  nations, 
is  deeply  interested  in  the  maintenance  of 
stringent  Neutrality  Laws ;  and  if  it  should 
appear  ours  are  too  lax,  or  are  over- 
weighted with  legal  proof,  and  that  com- 
pensation may  have  to  be  made,  I,  for 
one,  will  rejoice  if  that  decision  should 
lead  to  the  establishment  of  clearer  views 
of  the  duties  of  neutrals,  and  also  to  the 
adoption  of  a  more  intelligible  and  more 
stringent  Code  of  International  Law  for  the 
government  of  all  maritime  •Powers. 

I  am  sure  that  this  House  will  share  in 
the  regret  expressed  by  Her  Majesty  that 
our  mediation,  in  conjunction  with  that 
of  her  ally  the  Emperor  of  the  French, 
has  not  been  successful  in  bringing  to  a 
termination  the  disputes  which  have  arisen 
between  Spain  and  the  Republics  of  South 
America.  Those  Republics  should  remem- 
ber how  unmistakably  the  sympathy  of 
Europe  was  extended  towards  them  at 
the  commencement  of  those  differences; 
and,  remembering  this,  they  should  lend  a 
fEivourable  ear  to  any  proposals  for  a 
iriendly  mediation  which  would  be  likely 
to  bring  these  disputes  to  a  settlement. 
There  can  be  no  doubt  the  longer  this 
settlement  is  delayed  the  greater  will 
be  the  injury  to  those  young  and  pros- 
perous countries;  and  therefore  I  hope 
that  the  friendly  mediation  referred  to  in 
Her  Majesty's  Speech — and  by  which  I 
presume  to  be  understood  the  good  ofiices 
of  the  President  of  the  United  States — 
will  be  successful,  and  that  a  lasting  peace 
may  arise,  alike  satisfactory  to  the  inte- 
rests and  honour  of  all  parties. 

Mr.  Orav$9 

Prom  our  foreign  policy  I  turn  to  onr 
domestic  afiGnirs,  and  I  am  sure  that  I 
shall  be  pardoned  if  I  at  once  take  up  the 
question  which  engrosses  at  this  moment 
men's  minds,  and  to  which  our  attention 
has  been  specially  directed  by  Her  Majesty 
to-day  —  I  mean  Parliamentary  Reform. 
Happily  for  us  we  have  advanced  at  that 
stage  when  argument  becomes  no  longer  ne- 
cessary to  justify  the  extension  of  the  fran- 
chise. It  is  an  admitted  necessity  by  all 
parties  in  the  State,  and  the  only  point 
that  remains  to  be  settled  is  the  means  by 
which  a  wise,  just,  and  satisfactory  settle- 
ment of  the  question  can  be  arrived  at. 
What  the  mode  may  be  which  the  Go- 
vernment intend  to  propose  for  carrying 
this  object  into  effect — ^whether  it  includes 
a  Re-distribution  of  Seats  Bill — whether 
it  will  grapple  with  the  corruption  which 
has  been  so  ruthlessly  brought  to  light  in 
the  last  few  months,  and  which  I  consider 
to  be  a  serious  blot  upon  our  electional 
system,  and  a  stain  on  the  character  of  this 
House — whether  it  will  deal  with  these 
questions  or  not,  I  have  no  means  of 
knowing.  But  I  am  convinced  of  this — 
that  the  measure  will  not  be  framed  in 
any  narrow  spirit ;  nor  do  I  believe  that 
it  will  be  submitted  to  the  House  in 
any  but  the  most  earnest  and  honest  desire 
to  merit  the  approval,  not  only  of  this 
House,  but  of  the  country  at  lai^.  The 
history  of  Reform  justifies  the  remark 
which  my  hon.  Friend  has  made  to  night 
— that  it  should  not  be  made  a  party 
question.  So  far  I  do  not  think  that  it  has 
made  any  very  great  advance  under  pai*ty 
protection  ;  and  speaking  for  myself,  with- 
out any  inspiration,  I  think  it  should  be 
taken  out  of  the  category  of  par^  ques- 
tions, that  the  House  should  take  it  under 
its  own  protection,  and  deal  with  it  in  the 
firm  determination  to  settle  it  on  a  basis  of 
concession  and  compromise.  I  may  be 
wrong  in  this  view,  but  it  is  one  that  I  hold 
strongly,  and  I  throw  it  out,  for  what  it  is 
worth,  for  the  consideration  of  the  House. 
Scarcely  less  important  than  Parliamentary 
Reform  is  the  connection  between  capital 
and  labour—  the  breach  seems  rather  to  be 
widening  than  narrowing— and  I  think  Her 
Majesty's  Government  has  done  wisely  in 
deciding  that  an  inquiry  shall  take  place  by 
Commission  into  this  difficult  and  delicate 
question ;  for  if  the  result  of  the  inquiry 
should  be  to  draw  closer  the  links  between 
the  employer  and  the  employed,  it  wUl  bo 
a  subject  for  much  congratulation.  I  do 
not  know  whether  it  is  intended  that  the 


S&r  Matt 

[FmiKUAXi  5j  1867{ 

Gfradoua  Speech. 


inquiry  shall  embrace  the  question  of  the 
extent  to  which  we  are  suffering  from  the 
effects  of  foreign  competition  in  branches 
of  industry  that  hare  been  hitherto  con- 
sidered as  England's  specialities;  but  I 
think  it  very 'desirable  that  this  should  be 
done,  and  that  all  parties  in  this  country 
should  be  shown,  on' the  most  unquestion- 
able eTidencOi  the  causes  which  are  at 
work,  and  what  have  been  the  results  of 
their  operation. 

It  is  also,  I  perceiyOi  in  contemplation 
to  issue  a  Boyal  Commission  to  inquire 
into  the  quantity  and  quality  of  the  water 
supplied  to  the  metropolis  and  other  large 
towns  in  England.  The  experience  of  the 
last  twelve  months  has  taught  us  how 
largely  the  public  health  is  affected  by  the 
water  supply ;  and  no  one  can  question  the 
desirableness  of  haying  this  yery  important 
subject  investigated  in  all  its  bearings  by 
a  Jioyal  Commission,  instead  of  by  local 
and  partial  inquiries.  Living  as  I  do 
in  the  centre  of  one  of  the  most  densely- 
populated  districts  in  the  country,  I 
well  know  the  interest  with  which  this 
question  is  watched  by  the  people,  and 
Uie  satisfaction  with  which  the  announce- 
ment of  a  Commission  will  be  received 
by  all  who  dwell  in  large  towns.  A 
measure  will  be  submitted  to  us  for 
enabling  insolvent  railway  companies  to 
make  arrangements  for  settling  their  af- 
fairs. I  have  no  doubt*  that  in  that  mea- 
sure due  protection  will  be  given  to  the 
public  rights.  It  appears  that  there  is  no 
machinery  existing  at  the  present  moment 
for  meeting  such  a  state  of  things ;  and  it 
therefore  becomes  necessary  to  take  legis- 
lative measures  for  remedying  the  incon- 
venienoe  thence  arising.  We  cannot  be 
surprised,  knowing  the  deep  interest  taken 
by  Her  Majesty  in  the  Mercantile  Marine, 
that  Her  Majesty  has  been  pleased  to  call 
our  attention  to  it.  Much  has,  indeed, 
been  done  at  various  times  for  this  branch 
of  our  industry.  It  has  been  relieved 
of  many  burdens  and  restrictions — but 
some  still  remain.  There  are  anomalies, 
and  restrictions,  and  exceptional  burdens 
still  pressing  upon  it.  I  think  it  has  been 
wisely  decided  by  the  Government  to  deal 
with  them ;  and  I  hope  that,  at  the  same 
time,  the  various  Acts  connected  with  the 
Mercantile  Marine  of  the  country  may 
come  under  revision,  and  that  the  600  sec- 
tions may  be  consolidated  and  rendered 
more  intelligible  than  they  now  are  to 
owners,  masters,  and  seamen.  The  allu- 
sion to  our  seamen  is  no  less  important. 

There  are  evils  at  work  that  require  treat- 
ment. Some  of  them  may,  perhaps,  be 
beyond  legislative  cure;  but  I  am  per- 
fectly satisfied  that  much  in  the  way  of 
remedy  may  be  effected  by  wise  and  pru- 
dent legislation.  It  is  possible,  no  doubt, 
to  have  too  much  legislation ;  a^d  it  be- 
comes a  grave  question  whether  we  have 
not  had  too  much  for  our  seamien,  for  the 
result  has  been  to  keep  the  owners  of 
ships  and  their  seamen  further  apart  from 
each  other  instead  of  bringing  them  into 
closer  union.  Nothing  can  be  worse  than 
the  discipline  pointed  at  in  the  Speech, 
involving  the  shipping  interest  not  only 
in  serious  losses  and  intolerable  vexation, 
but  inflicting  on  the  country  a  large  an- 
nual expenditure  for  bringing  home  de- 
serters under  the  guise  of  distressed  sea- 
men. It  is  an  increasing  charge,  for  within 
the  last  two  years  it  has  increased  from 
£25,000  to  £30,000  for  the  mere  food  of 
these  men — whilst  to  our  shipowners  it  is 
a  serious  and  intolerable  vexation,  in  being 
compelled  to  provide  passages  for  them. 
The  seamen  of  the  Mercantile  Marine 
must  be  placed  on  a  better  system  — •  a 
better  system  of  recruiting  must  be  intro- 
duced— we  must  have  training  ships  estab- 
lished— the  comfort  and  health  of  the  sea- 
man must  be  more  carefully  looked  after—- 
shipowners  themselves  must  become  more 
conscious  of  their  responsibilities,  and  the 
commanders  must  take  a  greater  interest 
in  the  welfare  and  comfort  of  their  men. 
Then,  and  not  till  then,  are  wo  likely  to 
see  that  permanent  improvement  in  the 
Mercantile  Marine  which  will  enable  us 
to  look  upon  it  as  we  have  always  done, 
as  the  boast  of  this  country.  The  relaxa- 
tion of  the  Navigation  Laws — thanks  to  the 
enlightened  policy  of  the  Emperor  of  the 
French — is  one  which  may  be  regarded 
with  great  satisfaction.  From  the  1st 
of  January  the  tonnage  duties  collected 
from  ships  have  ceased  to  bd  collected 
in  the  French  ports,  except  in  the  instance 
of  the  ships  of  nations  which  have  refused 
to  grant  in  return  similar  privileges  to 
French  ships.  Anticipating  the  desire 
that  this  country  would  only  be  too  glad 
to  assist  in  shaking  off  the  renudning 
fetters  from  commerce,  France  has,  with- 
out asking,  placed  the  shipping  of  this 
country  upon  the  most  favourable  footing ; 
and  a  measure  will  be  submitted  to  the 
House  for  ratifying  that  understanding, 
and  I  have  no  doubt  that  the  removal  of 
the  few  exceptional  restrictions  will  be 
based   on   terms   as   equitable  in  their 


AMrea  h 


S&r  MafeHy  on 


nature  as  the  proposal  itself  is  justifi- 
able upon  public  policy.  The  question 
of  Law  Beform  is  one  of  the  Tery  greatest 
interest.  There  is  no  doubt  whatever  that 
the  judicial  force  and  the  machinery  of 
our  Law  Courts  has  not  kept  pace  with  the 
progress  of  the  country  or  the  wants  of 
trade.  I  am  glad  that  the  evils  arising 
from  the  loss  of  temper,  the  loss  of  time, 
and  the  loss  of  money,  attendant  on 
the  present  system  are  likely  to  be  re- 
mored.  As  to  the  advantage  of  tho  con- 
solidation of  tho  Divorce  Court  and  the 
Admiralty  Court,  I  am  not  very  compe- 
tent to  speak;  but  I  venture  to  hope 
that  when  the  measure  is  brought  be- 
fore the  House  for  dealing  with  the  Ad- 
miralty Court,  it  will  not  be  forgotten 
that  there  is  a  great  necessity  for  reform- 
ing the  Court  of  Admiralty  itself,  for 
making  more  summary  its  proceedings, 
and  for  extending  its  jurisdiction  to  classes 
of  maritime  commerce  not  now  embraced, 
and  which  at  present,  owing  to  the  ex- 
pense and  trouble  involved  in  Admii^lty 
proceedings,  are  either  confided  to  arbi- 
tration or  are  never  dealt  with  at  all.  I 
trust  also  that  the  advantages  of  a  re- 
constituted Admiralty  Court  will  not  be 
confined  to  the  metropolis ;  but  that  the 
great  maritime  ports  of  England,  which 
furnish  so  largo  a  share  to  the  business  of 
that  Court,  will  have  its  advantages  brought 
to  their  own  doors  by  the  establishment  of 
Vice  Admiralty  Courts.  As  to  the  amend- 
ment of  our  Bankruptcy  Laws,  I  cannot  for 
a  moment  doubt  the  propriety.  They  are 
generally  condemned— they  are  found  in- 
adequate to  the  proper  protection  of  the 
trader — they  are  cumbrous — and  they  are 
expensive.  I  hope  that  in  dealing  with 
these  laws  some  provision  will  bo  made 
to  check  the  commercial  immorality  which 
has  shown  itself  so  widely  within  the  last 
twelve  months  in  the  disgraceful  failures 
which  have  taken  place.  It  is  true  there 
are  palliating  circumstances  for  many  of 
these  failures  in  the  terrible  crisis  which 
swept  over  the  country  last  year. 

Judging  by  the  tests  which  are  usually 
applied  by  this  House  as  to  whether  any 
year  has  been  a  successful  one  or  other- 
wise, the  past  year  would  rank  as  an 
eminently  prosperous  one,  for  our  im- 
ports and  exports  have  increased  to  a 
very  largo  extent.  Our  imports,  taken 
for  nine  months  of  the  financial  year 
last  made  up,  compared  with  the  same 
months  in  the  preceding  year,  show  an 
excess  of  £42,000,000,  and  our  exports 

Mr.  Graves 

show  an  excess  of  £23,000,000.  It  is 
not  improbable  that  the  Chancellor  of  the 
Exchequer  may,  by-and-bye,  be  able  to 
announce  to  the  House  that  the  revenue 
has  been  equally  elastic,  and,  has  more  than 
answered  his  expectations.  But  the  popu« 
lar  estimate  of  last  year  is  very  different,  and 
is  much  more  likely  to  be  true  than  any  con- 
clusions based  upon  the  figures  I  have  just 
given.  A  crisis  of  unparalleled  severity, 
causing  a  wide-spread  derangement  of  cre- 
dit, involved  every  branch  of  our  National 
industry  in  most  serious  losses.  These 
panics  appear  to  be  periodical  in  their 
character  and  uniform  in  their  visitations  ; 
and  I  think  it  is  well  worthy  of  conside- 
ration whether  some  effort  may  not  bo 
made  to  ascertain  their  causes.  Believing^ 
that  excessive  credit  and  abuse  of  the 
principle  of  limited  liability  had  much  to 
do  with  the  crisis  of  last  year^  it  was  with 
sincere  pleasure  that  I  heard  the  hon. 
Member  for  Stockport  (Mr.  Watkin)  give 
notice  of  his  intention-  to  bring  before  the 
House  the  results  of  the  limited  liability 
system.  The  shock  which  it  has  received 
will  do  much  to  disarm  the  power  for  evil 
of  that  system  for  the  future ;  but  I  think, 
while  the  cause  and  the  effects  are  fresh 
upon  our  minds,  we  should  be  wise  in  re- 
viewing the  provisions  of  the  Act,  and 
preventing  such  mischiefs  from  occurring 
in  future.  The  manufacturing  interest  has 
happily  suffered  less  than  the  commercial ; 
but  the  exorbitant  rate  which  money  main- 
tained for  a  large  portion  of  the  current 
year,  must  have  largely  paralysed  the 
manufacturing  energy  of  this  country. 
These  fluctuations  in  the  value  of  money, 
occurring  so  frequently  as  they  do,  are 
exceedingly  embarrassing  to  trade ;  and  I 
hope  that  Parliament,  in  its  wisdom,  may 
be  able  to  devise  some  means  for,  if  not  pro- 
venting,  at  least  regulating  these  fluctua- 
tions. With  the  third  great  branch  of  our 
industrial  economy — agriculture — I  am  not 
so  conversant;  but  I  cannot  help  express- 
ing my  earnest  sympathy  with  that  in- 
terest, for  the  twofold  calamity  which  has 
fallen  upon  it — tho  cattle  plague  and  the 
indifferent  harvest.  These  may  be  re- 
garded as  natural  visitations ;  but  they  go 
to  swell  the  disasters  of  the  past  year,  and 
to  make  the  amelidment  of  the  Bankruptcy 
Law  the  more  necessary.  With  regard  to 
Ireland,  I  will  now  refer  specially  to 
the  measures  for  the  amelioration  of 
that  country  which  are  alluded  to  in 
the  Speech  from  tho  Throne.  I  hope 
that  these    are   but   the  harbingers   of 


Sift  Most 

(Febbvabt  5|  1867) 

Oraeioui  Speech.         66 

a  new  polic]^— a  policy  founded  npon  a 
just  appreciation  of  the  distinotions  of  race. 
I  yentore  to  think  that  the  statesmen  who 
seek  to  make  that  country  contented  and 
happy  must  do  so  rather  by  the  applica* 
lion  of  legislation  suited  to  the  character 
and  condition  of  the  country  than  by  the 
application  of  any  uniform  system  of  law. 
Holding  these  opinions,  I  rejoice  that  a 
measure  will  be  introduced  for  the  settle- 
ment of  the  long-vexed  question  of  land 
tenure  in  Ireland.  Public  policy  demands 
that  that  fertile  land  should  be  made  as 
fruitiul  as  possible,  and  that  the  occupiers 
of  the  soil  should  be  encouraged  and  should 
haye  secured  to  them  the  fruits  of  the 
capital  and  the  skill  which  they  invest  in 
the  improvement  of  the  land.  I  know 
that  on  this  subject  there  exists  the  most 
varied  opinions;  but  I  have  known  Ire- 
land long,  and  I  have  a  right  to  express 
my  opinion  on  the  subject,  for  I  con- 
sider under  the  existing  laws,  that  en- 
couragement and  that  security  do  not 
exist.  Mercifully  freed  as  that  country 
has  been  from  the  ravages  of  the  cattie 
plague  and  the  commercial  disasters  so 
heavily  felt  in  this  country,  Ireland 
has  been  making  in  material  wealth  at 
least  a  steady  progress.  She  has  added 
£2.500,000  to  the  value  of  her  live 
stock  within  the  last  official  year,  and 
the  deposits  in  her  savings  banks,  which 
in  the  year  1840  amounted  to  £5,500,000, 
in  1860  reached  £15,000,000,  and  in 
1865  amounted  to  £17,500,000;  thus 
showing  that  tiiere  is  capital  in  the 
country  for  the  improvement  of  land,  and 
that  there  is  not  that  absence  of  thrift 
in  the  national  character  which  is  so  fre- 
quently alleged.  One  question  I  must 
allude  to  as  having  a  deep  bearing  on  the 
prosperity  of  that  country — I  mean  the 
question  of  railways.  At  present  there 
is  a  total  want  of  system  with  respect  to 
them,  and  they  are  so  disconnected  that  I 
believe  the  resources  of  that  country  will 
never  be  developed  until  the  railways  are 
placed  on  a  better  footing.  The  fares 
ought  to  be  lower,  and  greater  facilities 
ought  to  be  given  to  make  the  masses  of 
the  population  customers  of  the  railways. 
At  present  they  are  looked  upon  as  a 
luxury  rather  than  a  necessity.  In 
order  to  effect  improvements,  State  inter- 
ference may  possibly  be  required ;  but  I 
believe  the  increase  of  traffic  would  in 
time  reimburse  the  State  for  any  obliga- 
tions it  might  incur  with  regard  to  them. 
If  a  precedent  is  wanted  I  might  point  to 

YOIh  CLXXXY.    [thibd  sxbixs.] 

India,  and  I  think  before  long  we  may  be 
able  to  point  to  one  nearer  home,  for  I 
am  convinced  that  the  necessity  of  taking 
over  the  tel^^ph  system  will  force  itself 
on  the  attention  of  the  Government,  and 
under  the  able  management  of  the  Post 
Office  would  increase  its  usefulness  to  an 
extent  now  littie  dreamt  of,  besides  adding 
largely  to  our  National  revenues.  The  pro- 
gress of  the  country  has  been  greaUy 
retarded  by  the  discontent  which  has  ex- 
isted for  the  last  few  years  under  the  name 
of  Fenianism,  and  which  has  spread  a 
blighting  influence  over  the  whole  island ; 
but  the  announcement  made  to-day  in  the 
Speech  from  the  Throne  points  to  a  hap- 
pier state  of  things,  and  leads  us  to  be* 
lieve  that  reason  and  common  sense  are 
resuming  their  sway,  and  that  the  spirit  of 
discontent  is  yielding  to  a  spirit  of  hope 
and  loyalty.  The  wise  and  conciliatory 
government  of  the  distinguished  noble- 
man who  is  at  present  Her  Majesty's 
Viceroy  in  Ireland  (the  Marquess  of  Aber- 
com)  has  largely  contributed  to  this  result 
—a  compliment  equally  deserved  by  the 
nobleman  who  preceded  him  (the  Earl 
of  Kimberley).  I  accept,  as  marking  a 
new  era,  the  measures  announced  by  the 
Oovemment«  I  look  upon  them  as  a 
harbinger  of  peace,  and  as  a  proof  that  the 
spirit  of  Fenianism  is  drawing  towards  an 
end.  It  is  not  unnatural  that  I  should 
turn  from  Ireland  to  our  North  American 
Provinces,  where,  if  there  had  been  any 
good  ground  for  its  reception,  Fenianism 
might  have  been  expected  to  And  a  home. 
But  the  miserable  attempts  made  there  to 
introduce  it  only  tested  the  loyalty  of  the 
colonists,  and  proved  how  strong  was  the 
tie  which  binds  the  colonies  to  the  mother 
country.  In  order  to  appreciate  the  ad- 
vantages of  consolidation  it  is  perhaps 
necessary  to  visit  them,  and  to  become 
conversant,  as  I  have  become,  with  their 
almost  inexhaustible  resources,  and  the 
steady  enei^  of  the  people.  Covering 
400,000  square  miles,  embracing  near 
4,000,000  of  people,  bound  together  by  a 
community  of  interests  and  devotedly  at- 
tached to  the  institutions  of  this  country 
and  to  the  Throne  and  person  of  the  Queen, 
it  would  be  difficult  to  speculate  as  to  the 
resuHs  which  may  grow  out  of  the  union 
of  these  flue  Provinces.  I  have  heard 
it  said  that  there  is  danger  to  Imperial 
interests  in  this  measure,  and  that  na- 
tional aspirations  may  arise.  I  have  no 
such  fear.  I  believe  the  connection  be- 
tween the  North  American  Provinces  and 



AiirM  to 




the  mother  oountry  xesti  on  more  endur- 
ing foondationsy  and  that  they  will  be 
more  than  oyer  an  important  element  in 
our  national  resonrcee.  Knowing  as  I  do 
the  dii&cnlties  which  mast  have  beeet  the 
negotiations  for  saoh  a  oonsolidatton— -the 
jealonsies  and  rivalries  whioh  mnst  have 
arisen,  and  the  personal  saorifloes  which 
mnst  have  been  made— I  shonld.  not  be 
doin^  jnstiee  to  the  del^;ates  from  the 
Provinces  if  I  did  not  say  th^  are  enti- 
tled to  the  highest  credit  fbr  the  manner 
in  which  they  have  fulfilled  their  delicate 
but  most  important  duties. 

I  have  now  to  thank  the  House  for  the 
indulgence  whioh  has  been  shown  to  me, 
and  to  express  a  hope  that  the  measures 
alluded  to  in  the  Speech — measures  of  vast 
importance  to  the  oountry— may  be  dealt 
with  by  the  House  in  a  spirit  of  forbear- 
anoci  wisdom,  and  conciliation.  And  my 
highest  wish  is  that  at  the  end  of  the  Ses- 
aion  we  may  be  permitted  to  look  back  with 
satis&etion  and  to  feel  that  among  the 
measures  we  have  passed  is  one  for  widen- 
ing the  bases  of  our  institutions,  and  that 
by  our  legislation  we  have  oonMbuted  to 
the  happiness  and  well-being  of  the  people 
of  this  country.  The  hon.  GtoAeman 
concluded  by  seoonding  the  Motion. 

Motion  made,  and  Question  proposed, 
"That,*'  ko.    {See  Page  64.] 

Mb.  GLADSTONE :  I  rise,  Mr.  Speaker, 
for  the  purpose  of  supporting  the  Address 
which  has  been  moved  and  seconded  from 
the  opposite  Benohes.  I  heartily  approve 
that  well-established  rule  which  on  all  oc- 
oasions  discourages  the  needless  importa- 
tion of  subjects  of  difforenoe  into  the  de- 
bate on  the  Address  to  the  Crown  in 
answer  to  the  Boyal  Speech ;  and  I  con- 
fess that  on  this  oocasion,  independently 
of  much  other  matter  which  the  AddrMs 
contains,  and  which  we  should  wish  to 
see  brought  out  in  discussion  wiUi  the 
most  &.Tourable  auanices,  there  are  three 
announcements  which  of  themselves  would 
suffice,  I  think,  to  make  any  candid  and 
weU-judging  man  reluctant  to  see  dissen- 
sion mtioduced  into  this  debate.  I  mean 
.the  announcement  of  a  measure  for  the 
union  of  the  North  American  Provinces; 
the  announcement  of  a  measure  oir  that 
most  important  subject,  the  state  of  the 
relations  between  landlord  and  tenant  in 
Ireland — and,  I  must  add,  in  terms  in 
which  I  do  not  think  the  most  fiistidious 
among  ua  ean  find  anything  to  object  to ; 
and  thirdly,  the  announoementi  not  less 

gratifying  than  either  of  the  others,  bii4 
even  more  gratifying,  that  in  the  judgm«D^ 
of  Her  Majesty's  Government  the  time  has 
arrived  when  the  existence  of  ezoeptioaal^ 
and  in  one  sense  arbitrary,  power  in  Ire* 
land  may  reach  its  termination.    I  not; 
only,  therefore,  am  unprepared  to  move 
any  Amendment  on  the  Address  myself* 
but  if  there  were  any  Gentleman  who  en- 
tertained a  different  disposition,  and  to 
whom  I  might  without  impropriety  ofifor 
a  recommendation,  I  would  earnestly  be-  ' 
eeedi  him  to  forbear  from  executing  such 
an  intention.    Passing,  however,  to  the 
subjects -— the  numerous  and  important 
subjects  —  touched  upon  in  the  Speech 
from  the  Throne,  I  am  anxious  to  offer 
some  remarks  on  some  paragraphs  which 
the  Speech  contains.    And  first,  I  will 
dwell  for  a  moment  on  that  very  mo- 
mentous question,  the  Correspondence  be- 
tween the    Government  of  the  United 
Kingdom   and   the  Government  of  the 
United  States  of  America,  in  reference  to 
questions  pending  between  the  two  coun- 
tries, whicn  questions  have  arisen  out  of 
the  late  Civil  War.  And  I  wish  to  convey 
an  assurance  to  the  noble  Lord  the  Secre- 
tary of  State  for  Foreign  Affairs,  on  the 
part  of  all  with  whom  I  have  had  an  op- 
portunity of  communicating,  that  what- 
ever he  may  have  done  or  whatever  he 
may  propose  to  do  on  the  subjeot  will  be 
judgM,  not  in  the  narrow  spirit  of  exact- 
ing horn  him,  or  endeavouring  to  exaet 
from  him,  a  precise  conformity  to  the  steps 
we  ourselves  have  taken,  but  that  as  long 
as  his  measures  and  his  policy  may  in  our 
view  be  consistent  with  the  honour  and 
eondudve  to  the  interests  of  the  oountry, 
everything  which  may  proceed  from  him 
and  his  Colleagues  will  receive  at  our 
hands  a  most   favourable  consideration. 
Then  I  go  on  to  the  paragraph  in  the 
Speech  relating  to  the  insurrection  which 
has  distracted— I  know  not  to  what  ex- 
tent it  still  distraote— the  important  island 
of  Candia.    I  miss  tcom  the  Boyal  Speech 
an  intimation  which  it  is  very  common  to 
convey — that  upon  certain  subjects,  and 
especially  subjects  of  foreign  pokey,  which 
have  reached  a  certain  degree  of  matu- 
rity, it  is  the   intention  of  Her   Ma- 
jesty's Goveminent  to  submit  papers  to 
the  House.    Indeed,  I  observe  that  an 
hon.  Friend  of  mine  (Mr.  Gregory)  has 
already  given   notice  of  his   desue  to 
obtain  information  in  tiiat  shape,  and  I  • 
feel  myself  justified  in  expressugahope 
that  Her  Hajesty's  Govermnent  will  be 



(Fkbbvabt  5y  18671 

GracMUB  Speech.         70 

pirepared  to  lay  before  us  sooh  infonnation 
on  the  Babject  aa  they  poasesa — ^for  this 
qneaiion  ia  one  which,  al&ongh  of  foreign 
ooBcem,  yet  cannot  be  regarded  aa  very 
remote  from  our  interesta;  nay,  more,  it 
cannot  be  regarded  aa  a  question  in  which 
we  are  altt^ther  without  righta.  We 
know  not  at  present  from  any  authentio 
Bonroe  the  cause  of  this  insurrection :  we 
know,  howeyer,  the  deplorable  calamitiea 
with  which  it  haa  hem  attended,  and  the 
desperate  resolution  with  which,  against 
enormous  odda,  the  battle  has  been  fought 
Now,  what  I  am  desirous  to  know — and  I 
hope  that  the  papers  when  presented  by 
Her  Majesty's  Government  will  prove 
what  I  am  desirous  to  know— is  that  the 
Government  of  the  Sultan  is  not  responsible 
for  this  insurrection,  but  that  it  had,  be- 
fore the  commencement  of  the  outbreak, 
given  faithful  and  full  execution  to  that 
important  instrument— the  hatti-scheriff— 
issued  at  the  close  of  the  Crimean  war  for 
the  purpose  of  securing  to  the  Christian 
subjects  of  the  Porte  at  least  the  civil 
equality  to  which  they  were  justly  en- 
tilled,  and  which  had  been  too  long  with- 
held. Thia  ia  a  question  not  only  of  the 
utmoat  gravity  in  itself,  but  one  of  justice 
in  its  connection  with  the  general  interests 
of  humanity  rather  than  with  any  special 
British  int^sts  in  a  more  narrow  sense ; 
and  it  ia  likewise  of  the  utmost  importance 
with  referenoe  to  the  future  peace  of 
Europe.  I  congratulate  Her  Majesty's 
Government  most  cordially  that  the  time 
haa  arrived  when  they  are  able  to  promise 
us — forming  their  judgment  on  the  circum- 
stances of  the  moment — that  they  will 
not»  under  these  circumstances,  apply  for 
an  extension  of  the  exceptional  powers  of 
the  Government  in  Ireland;  and  I  join 
with  them  in  rcpoioing  that  the  spirit 
which  has  been  displayed  by  the  commu- 
nity itself  in  aid  of  the  Government  has 
proved  to  be  so  potent  an  ally  in  avert- 
ing the  evil  which  at  one  time  we  had 
been  led  to  apprehend  —  a  phenomenon 
new  in  the  history  of  Ireland — a  pheno- 
menon which,  I  trusty  will  lead  to  much 
reflection  upon  its  causes,  and  which,  after 
that  reflection,  will  prove  a  powerful  en- 
couragement to  us  to  prosecute  the  policy 
of  liberality  and  of  justice  towards  Ire- 
land, of  which,  in  part,  we  have  already 
witnessed  the  happy  effect.  Her  Majesty's 
Gofemment  refer  to  a  subject  of  great  in- 
terest in  connection  with  the  condition  of 
the  aimy»  and  with  the  foundation  of  an 
efflfiient  anny  of  lesenrey    If  I  oaught 

correctly  the  words  of  the  Address,  the 
promise  which  it  is  proposed  to  meJce  to 
Her  Majesty's  Government  in  return  is 
that  we  wUl  cheerfully  consider  any  de* 
mand  which  may  be  made  for  our  assent 
to  a  moderate  increase  of  expenditure. 
Now,  I  must  confess  that,  if  I  were  a 
captious  critic,  I  should  a  little  doubt 
whether  cheerfulness  of  consideration  is 
exactly  that  form  of  consideration  which 
representatives  of  the  people  should  give 
to  proposala  for  an  increase  of  expendi- 
ture. A  careful  and  a  ready  consideration 
I  have  no  doubt  that  subject  will  have, 
and  I  trust  a  fair  and  even  a  liberal  con- 
sideration. Most  certainly  I  express  my 
confldence  that,  while  we  shall  expect 
the  Government  to  show  that  expenses 
which  are  perhaps  necessary  in  t)no  direc- 
tion can  be  compensated  by  savings  in 
another,  the  Government  will  receive  the 
cordial  support  of  this  House  in  every 
well-conceived  and  every  effectual  mea- 
sure for  the  attainment  of  that  most  de- 
sirable object,  the  foundation  of  a  good 
system  of  army  reserve.  The  Speech  also 
touches  upon  a  subject  as  delicate  as  it  is 
important,  in  the  reference  it  makes  to 
an  inquirv  that  is  about  to  be  instituted 
into  the  disagreements  between  employers 
of  labour  and  their  workmen,  and  into  the 
means  by  which  that  inquiry  is  to  be  pro- 
secuted. I  think  there  nave  been  exagge- 
rated statements  made  on  this  subject, 
which  may  to  a  certain  extent  have  acted 
on  the  public  mind.  Such  statements  tend 
to  propagate  the  idea  either  that  differences 
between  employers  and  workmen  are  now  of 
a  more  aggravated  character  than  in  former 
times,  or  that  the  effect  of  these  differences 
is  to  menace  the  commercial  and  trading 
position  of  this  country.  If  there  be 
those  who  really  entertain  that  apprehen- 
sion, let  them  pay  attention  to  a  single 
sentence  in  the  speech  of  the  Seconder  of 
the  Address,  which  acquainted  us  that  the 
joint  increase  in  the  exports  and  imports 
from  and  to  this  country  for  nine  months 
of  the  last  year,  as  compared  with  nine 
mouths  of  the  year  preceding,  amounted 
to  £65,000,000.  But  that  is  no  reason 
why  the  attention  of  Parliament  should 
not  in  every  useful  manner  be  given  to 
a  subject  which  is  of  the  utmost  im- 
portance, and  a  matter  in  which  undoubt- 
edly there  are  yet  serious  difficulties  and 
senous  evils  to  be  remedied.  What  I  hope 
is  that  the  interposition  of  Government  in 
this  matter  will  be  an  amicable  interposi- 
tion,* andinpartioular^tbAtwbonmyriKht 





jR&r  Hafuiy  on 


hon.  Friend  the  Secretary  of  State  for  tlie 
Home  Department  frames  his  Bill  for  ob- 
taining  fiom  Parliament  powers  to  make 
the  inquiry  effectiTe  he  will  bear  in  mind- 
as  I  am  sore  he  will— the  ftdl  and  absolute 
right  of  all  indiyiduals,  employers  and 
workmen  alike,  to  bring  to  market  the 
commodity  they  have  to  dispose  of,  whe- 
ther it  be  labour  or  capital,  on  the  best 
terms  in  their  power,  as  long  as,  and  only 
as  long  as,  they  exercise  their  own  rights 
without  prejudice  to  the  rights  of  others. 
There  is  but  one  other  subject  on  which  I 
hare  to  detain  the  House  for  a  few  mo- 
ments, and  it  is  the  subject  to  which — as 
has  been  rightly  said  by  the  hon.  Gentle- 
man the  Member  for  Liverpool  (Mr.  Graves) 
—there  attaches  at  the  present  time  an 
all-absorbing  interest — I  mean  the  question 
of  the  representation  of  the  people.  But 
I  will  here  first  offer  a  comment  upon  that 
which  many  of  us  had  anxiously  expected 
to  see  alluded  to,  but  which,  probably  for 
some  good  and  sufficient  cause,  does  not 
appear  in  the  Speech.  I  presume  that  is 
probably  owing  to  the  circumstance  that 
the  recent  inquiries  into  corrupt  practices 
in  certain  boroughs  are  not  yet  so  abso- 
lutely completed  as  to  have  enabled  the 
Government  to  advise  the  Crown  to  refer 
to  this  subject.  At  all  events,  nothing  was 
said  in  reg^  to  it.  I  am  sure  it  is  one 
which,  from  its  importance,  well  deserves 
notice.  If  the  question  of  Parliamentary 
Beform  be  difficult,  at  least  it  ought  not  to 
be  difficult  to  deid  with  certain  of  its 
branches,  such  as  cases  of  proved  corrup- 
tion. I  beg  to  say  that  this  evil,  which 
has  grown,  perhaps,  not  more  intense— I 
hope,  on  the  contrary,  lees  intense — but 
which  has  grown  fiur  more  patent,  and 
therefore  more  scandalous,  of  late  years, 
has  now  become  a  matter  not  merely  of 
domestic  policy  and  expediency,  but  I  will 
even  venture  to  say  of  national  honour.  As 
long  as  we  were  in  something  like  exclusive 
possession  of  a  representative  system,  little 
notice  was  taken  of  these  offences  in  foreign 
lands;  but  we  have  lived  into  a  period 
in  which  almost  every  country  possesses, 
in  more  or  less  perfect  forms,  representative 
institutions,  and  in  which  some  countries 
enjoy  them  in  high  efficiency.  Since  tiiat 
has  been  the  case,  it  appears  to  me  tiiat 
Europe  has  conceived  what  I  might  al- 
most call  a  sentiment  of  disgust  at  finding 
that  evils  of  which  those  countries  are 
scarcely  conscious  have  become  so  rife  and 
so  virulent  among  ourselves.  I  hope  it 
will  be  understoodthat  I  assume  there  is 

a  cause  for  silence  in  Her  Majesty's  Speeeh 
on  tins  subject;  but  I  must  express  the 
hope  tiiat  when  Her  Majesty's  Government 
take  into  their  consideration  some  of  the 
Beports — ^I  will  not  now  presume  to  de- 
cide which  they  may  be — ^in  which  it  shall 
appear,  on  judicial  authority,  that  oon- 
stituenoies  are  tainted,  as  they  have  been 
in  some  former  and  well-remembered  in« 
stances,  they  will  not  ask  us  tq  infiiet  the 
almost  nominal  and  wholly  unsatis&etory 
punishments  which  have  bounded  our  ac- 
tion on  former  occasions,  but  will  give 
evidence  to  the  world,  by  something  in 
the  nature  of  strictness  and  severity,  that 
we  are  in  earnest  on  this  particular  ques- 
tion. As  regards  the  paragraph  in  the 
Speech  of  Her  Majesty,  it  is  obviously 
open  to  the  remark  that  its  language  is  in 
some  degree  enigmatical;  but  I  do  not 
think  it  will  be  Mr  to  make  that  circum- 
stance a  subject  of  complaint.  On  the 
contrary,  I  think  Her  Majesty's  Govern- 
ment are  perfectly  justifi^  in  reserving^ 
that  full  explanation  of  their  intentions  to 
a  future  day  which,  if  it  had  been  at* 
tempted  to-day,  in  a  form  necessarily  im- 
perfect, would  probably  have  tended  te 
prejudice  the  settlement  of  the  question. 
Therefore,  in  assenting  to  the  paragraph 
as  it  stands,  I  do  so  upon  the  double 
ground  that  there  is  nothing  in  its  Ian* 
gaage  which  can  give  rise  to  a  just  reflee- 
tion ;  and,  important  as  is  every  matter 
connected  with  this  subject,  both  as  to 
substance  and  as  to  procedure,  under  pre- 
sent circumstances,  I,  for  myself,  and 
others,  if  they  are  so  minded,  retain  the 
most  perfect  liberty  to  canvass,  both  as  to 
substance  and  as  to  procedure,  the  mea- 
sures and  the  steps  to  be  taken  by  Her 
Majesty's  Government,  when  in  the  proper 
time  we  become  fully  acquainted  with 
them.  I  think  there  are  three  points  in 
which  may  be  summed  up,  in  a  great  de- 
gree, our  interest  in  the  consideration 
and  management  of  this  matter.  There 
is  the  question  by  whom  the  measure  of 
Parliamentary  Beform  is  to  be  submitted 
to  Parliament ;  there  is  the  question  what 
is  to  be  the  substanoe  and  effect  of  such  a 
measure ;  and  lastly,  there  is  the  question 
when  such  a  measure  is  to  be  brought 
under  our  notice,  and  when  it  is  to  reach 
its  completion.  As  regards  the  first  of 
those  questions — ^by  whom  the  measure  is 
to  be  Bubmitted-^I  humbly  represent  to 
the  House  that  at  this  moment  the  interest 
of  the  country  in  the  speedy  settlement  of 
the  question  is  all-impcortant;  and,  if  there 



(FSBBUABT  6, 1867} 

Orachui  Spmh,         74 

be  any  of  ns  who  are  less  sangmne  than 
hon.  Gentlemen  opposite  as  to  the  possible 
proceedings  of  Her  Majesty's  GoTernment, 
that  is  no  reason  for  endeayonring  to  oast 
impediments  in  their  course.  It  is  our  duty 
to  accept,  wherever  we  can  get  it,  a  measure 
which  will  be  adequate  to  meet  the  just 
expectations  of  tlie  country ;  and  if  we 
intend  to  be  willing  parties  to  the  intro- 
duction of  such  a  measure  by  Her  Ma- 
jesty's Government,  we  ought  not  by  any- 
thing we  may*now  say  or  do  to  cast  even 
the  smallest  difficulty  in  the  way  of  that 
introduction.  Sir,  as  respects  the  sub- 
stance of  the  measure,  I  do  not  think  the 
present  occasion  a  proper  one  to  discuss 
it;  but  as  respects  the  time  of  the  mea- 
sure, I  must  again  say,  it  appears  to  me 
that  even  the  question  of  the  substance  is 
hardly  more  important.  It  is  not  neces- 
sary now  to  retrace  the  wearisome  and 
irksome  details  of  this  protracted  contro- 
vert, or  to  reinind  the  House  how  many 
Sessions,  how  many  Queen's  Speeches,  how 
many  Parliaments  have  been  involved. 
One  thing  only  we  can  say,  and  that  is, 
it  is  impossible  for  legislation  to  proceed 
in  its  orderly  and  accustomed  course  until 
this  matter  is  disposed  of— until  this  mat- 
ter is  disposed  of  it  stops  the  way;  it 
disturbs  and  impedes,  and  it  not  only  dis- 
turbs and  impedes,  but  it  embitters  every 
attempt  to  deal  with  other  questions  of 
difficulty.  The  vast  and  varied  interests 
of  this  country,  growing  apparently  more 
vast  and  more  varied  every  day,  and,  in 
proportion  as  we  reap  the  harvest  of  legis- 
lation with  assiduity,  causing  new  and 
thicker  crops  to  spring  afreet  from  the 
ground  soliciting  our  attention,  render  it 
our  duty  to  see  and  require  that  the  mea- 
sures adopted — so  far  as  we  can  require 
from  others — shall  be  directed  towards  the 
attainment,  not  only  of  an  effectual,  but 
also  of  a  speedy  settlement  of  this  ques- 
tion. I  therefore  ask  myself  how  I  am 
to  interpret  the  paragraph  in  which  this 
■abject  has  been  brought  under  our  notice, 
and  I  cannot  doubt  as  to  the  mauner  in 
which  I  am  justified  in  construing  it.  I 
will  not  ask  for  explanations ;  I  will  not 
make  any  remark  which  would  have  a 
tendency  to  force  the  Government  to  offer 
explanation  for  the  purpose  of  avoiding 
nusapprehension;  but  what  I  understand 
by  this  paragraph  is  this : — Her  Majesty's 
Goyemment,  like  ourselves,  like  the  gene- 
rality of  the  House,  including  their  own 
foUowers  and  the  whole  country  without 
distinction  of  partyi  are  sensible  of  the 

necessity  of  dealing  promptly  with  this 
matter,  and  that,  upon  the  earliest  day 
which  they  can  choose  for  the  purpose, 
they  will  be  prepared  to  propose,  on  their 
own  responsibility,  such  measures  as  they 
shall  think  will  be  most  effectual  for  the 
attainment,  the  effective  attainment,  and, 
above  all,  the  speedy  attainment  of  their 
object  and  the  just  satisfaction-  of  the 
wishes  of  the  country.  I  hope  there  is 
nothing  unreasonable  in  that  expectation. 
If  that  expectation  be  a  just  one,  we 
ought  to  rest  perfectly  satisfied,  cherish- 
ing the  hope  that  the  time  is  at  hand 
when  we  may  be  able  to  remove  from  our- 
selves and  out  of  the  way  this  obstacle,  and 
to  remove  from  ourselves  what  threatens 
to  become,  if  we  do  not  remove  it,  a  stand- 
ing discredit  to  Parliament  and  tiie  insti- 
tutions of  the  land,  and  to  give  to  all  the 
other  vast  and  diversified  interests  of  the 
country  that  attention  which  they  so  im- 
peratively solicit  at  our  hands. 

The  CHANGELLOB  of  the  EXCHE- 
QUER :  I  heard.  Sir,  with  great  satis- 
faction from  the  right  hon.  Gentleman 
opposite  (Mr.  Gladstone)  that  there  was  no 
prospect  of  an  Amendment  to  the  Address 
"being  proposed  to-night.  After  so  long  a 
separation  it  really  is  far  from  agreeable 
that  on  the  first  night  we  meet  together 
we  should  resupaie  our  struggles  ;  and  in 
the  months  that  are  before  us  many  oppor- 
tunities will  arise  to  compensate  hon. 
Gentlemen  for  the  self-restraint  which 
they  exercise  now.  There  are  one  or  two 
points  to  which  the  right  hon.  Gentleman 
has  referred  which  I  will  notice  before  I 
touch  on  his  last  more  interesting  in- 
quiiy.  The  right  hon.  Gentleman  has  done 
justice  to  the  contents  of  Her  Majesty's 
most  gracious  Speech,  and  I  think  I  may 
congratulate  my  Colleagues  upon  its  recep- 
tion by  the  House  generally,  though  I  am 
sure  we  owe  it  in  some  degree  to  the  able 
interpretation  which  has  been  put  upon  it 
by  my  hon.  Friends  who  moved  and  se- 
conded the  Address,  the  first  with  a  pleas- 
ing propriety  I  am  sure  all  must  acknow- 
ledge, the  Seconder  with  a  weight  of  au- 
thority derived  from  his  position  and  his 
acquaintance  with  commercial  pursuits.  In 
answer  to  the  question  which  has  been  put 
by  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  with  reference 
to  the  disturbances  in  Crete,  I  may  say 
that  papers  will  certainly  be  presented  on 
the  subject.  I  believe  my  noble  Friend 
(Lord  Stanley)  had  a  reason  which  for  a 
short  time  may  influence  him  in  not  im- 
mediately presenting  tiiem  to  the  House  % 


Qusm^t  Speech^ 


JRtlport  of  Addreu. 


bat  when  that  reason  ceases  to  operate, 
raj  noble  Friend  will  take  the  earliest 
opportnnity  of  laying  them  on  the  table  of 
the  House.  The  right  hon.  Qentleman 
(Mr.  Ghkdstone)  also  referred  to  the  cir- 
cumstance that  no  allusion  was  made  in 
the  Queen's  Speech  to  the  inquiries  into 
proceedings  in  certain  boroughs.  The 
reason  why  we  made  no  reference  to  these 
inquiries  was  that  the  reports  of  them 
have  not  been  receiyed  by  the  Government. 
[An  hon.  Mexbbb  :  Not  all.]  Some  have ; 
but  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  will  feel 
that  it  would  be  conyenient  and  proper  to 
have  them  all  in  our  possession  before  we 
make  any  announcement  on  the  subject. 
The  right  hon.  Gentleman  then,  in  a  tone 
of  which  I  am  sure  I  have  no  cause  to 
complain,  referred  to  the  paragraph  in 
the  Speech  announcing  that  the  attention 
of  Parliament  will  be  called  to  the  state 
of  the  representation  of  the  people ;  and  I 
think  the  right  hon.  Gentleman,  remem- 
bering, I  have  no  doubt,  his  experience  in 
the  position  which  I  now  have  the  honour 
to  occupy,  felt  how  very  inconvenient  it 
would  be  if,  on  the  first  day  of  the  Session, 
a  number  of  inquiries  were  made  the  an- 
swers to  which  might  only  lead  to  misap* 
prehension,  and  which  would  really  not  be 
fair  to  those  who  are  responsible  for  the 
consequences.  I  will  not  trouble  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman  and  the  House  at  any 
length  upon  the  subject,  because,  with  the 
permission  of  the  House,  I  mean  to  take, 
not  only  an  early,  but  the  earliest  day  at 
our  command  in  order  to  bring  the  whole 
subject  before  the  House.  [An  hon.  Mem- 
nxR :  What  day  ?]  Monday  next.  That 
is  the  first  day  at  our  disposal,  and  I  then 
propose  to  state  the  course  which  the  Go- 
vernment mean  to  take  upon  this  subject, 
and  generally  to  enter  into  the  matter.  1 
trust,  therefore,  that  under  these  circum- 
stances we  may  not  be  pressed  to  make  any 
statements  to-night,  but  that  we  may  be  al- 
lowed to  reserve  our  views  and  state  them 
fully  on  that  oocasion.  The  right  hon.  Gen- 
tleman has  done  justice  to  the  important 
subjects  which  have  been  brought  under 
the  notice  of  the  House  in  the  Speech 
from  the  Throne.  I  am  aware,  as  all  must 
be  aware,  that  it  will  require  on  the  part 
of  the  House  considerable  effort  to  do 
justice  to  the  several  themes  which  will  be 
brought  before  them.  But  re-action  is  the 
law  of  life,  and  it  is  the  characteristic  of 
the  House  of  Commons.  There  have  been 
complaints  of  late  of  indolence  and  want 
of  assiduity  on  ttie  part  of  this  House. 

Th$  Chancelkr  of  the  E9chsj%9r 

It  is  said  that  we  have  passed  through  Ses- 
sion after  Session  without  doing  what  our 
duty  required.  Now,  in  this  Session  an  ad- 
mirable opportunity  will  be  afforded  to  the 
House,  and  if  they  only  follow  the  example 
which  the  Government  are  prepared  to  set 
by  the  devotion  of  their  time  and  labour  to 
the  pursuit  of  these  propositions,  I  think 
we  need  not  be  frightened  by  the  quantity 
of  business  before  us,  but  may  rather  look 
forward  to  the  end  of  a  S^9sion  which  will 
redound  to  the  public  advantage  and  to 
the  character  of  tiiis  Assembly* 

Motion  agreed  to. 

Committee  t^ppeinted,  to  draw  up  an  Addresa 
to  be  presented  to  Her  Majest/  upon  the  nid 
Reiolaiion  :^Mr.  Da  6ur,  Mr.  Gbavu,  Mr. 
Chahokllob  of  the  ExoBBqoxB,  Mr.  Secretary 
Walpoli,  Lord  Stihut,  Geoenl  Pssl,  Viieoani 
CaAHBOuKifB,  Sir  Jomr  PiKiiroToir,  Lord  Jobs 
Manhxrs,  Sir  Statfobd  Nobtboots»  Mr.  6a- 
TBOBBB  Habdt,  Lord  Naas,  Mr.  Attobbbt  Q«- 
BXBAL,  Mr.  HuBT,  Aod  Colonel  Tatlob,  or  anj 
Fife  of  them: — ^To  withdraw  immediatelj: — 
i^aeen'i  Speech  referred. 

House  a^joomed  at  Seven  o'clock* 


Wedneeday,  FAruary  6,  1867. 

MINUTES.]— Nbw  Wbits  Issubd— JFVh-  The  Col- 
lege of  the  Holy  Triniix,  Dablin,  v.  Right  hon. 
John  Edward  Walsh,  Matter  of  the  RoUe  for 
Ireland  ;  for  Gal  way  Town,  tf.  Right  hon.  Mi- 
chael Morris,  Attorney  General  for  Ireland;  for 
AndoTcr,  v.  William  Ucnry  Uumpherj,  esqmro, 
Chiltem  Hundreds.  ; 

Nbw  Mbmbib  Swobb — ^Arthur  KaTanagh,  eeqoirey 
for  Wexford  Connty. 

PuBUO  Bills  -^  Ordertd — Finsbury  Estate  * ; 
Annuity  Tax  Abolition  (Edinburgh,  Parish  of 
Canongate)* ;  Joint  Stock  Companies  (Voting 

FWit  RMdiiM^Tiwkhvxj  Estate*  [1] ;  Anaoity 
Tax  Abolition  (Edinborgh,  Parish  of  Canon- 
gate)*  [21;  Joint  Stock  Companies  (Voting 
Papers)*  [3]. 

Beport  of  Addreaa  hrwght  up  and  lead. 

On  Motion,  to  agree  to  the  Addresa — 

Mb.  HADFIELD  complained  that  no 
allusion  had  been  made  in  the  Speech  to 
the  question  of  church  rates,  although  it 
would  be  in  the  recollection  of  the  Honse 



[FuBTTABTfi,  1867} 



that  a  Bill  dealing  with  that  sabjeot  was 
actually  Tead  a  second  time  last  Session. 

Ma.  WALPOLE  rose  to  order.  I  do 
not  know  whether  it  is  usual  for  an  hon. 
Member  to  go  into  a  subject  not  immedi- 
ately lelatog  to  the  Address.  The  course 
being  taken  by  the  hon.  Gentleman  is 
somewhat  inoouTenienti  and  may  lead  to 
some  discussion. 

Mb.  SP^AUOt :  It  would  be  open  to 
the  hon.  Membert  on  the  Question  that 
the  Address  be  read  a  second  time,  to 
refer  to  any  particular  passage  in  the 
Address,  or  to  more  an  Amencbnent,  but 
not  to  open  a  discussion  on  subjects  irre- 
levant to  the  Address. 

Mb.  HADFIELD  believed  that  he  was 
in  order,  and  that  he  had  a  right  to  notice 
a  palpable  omission  in  the  Address,  and 
to  argue  that  an  addition  ought  to  be 
made  to  it.  He  did  not  want  to  raise 
any  discussion  upon  the  matter ;  but  he 
thought  that  reference  in  the  Address 
ought  to  be  made  to  a  subject  of  debate 
in  that  House  for  the  last  thirty  years, 
and  that  some  intimation  should  be  given 
to  the  country  on  the  subject  of  church 
rates.  It  appeared  to  mm  that  they 
ought  not  to  blmk  a  question  of  thirty 
years'  standing  in  that  House.  The 
House  had  by  large  majorities  established 
the  principle  that  abolition  should  be 
either  entire,  or  that  persons  should  not 
be  sued  for  church  rates.  He  therefore 
begged  leave  to  move  an  addition  to  the 
Address  to  the  effect  that  this  House  re- 
presents to  Her  Majesty  its  r^;ret  that  no 
allusion  whatever  has  been  made  in  the 
Speech  from  the  Throne  to  the  subject  of 
church  rates — a  subject  which  had  been 
repeatedly  discussed  in  this  House.  In 
his  opinion  the  matter  ought  to  be  dis- 
posed of;  and  that  it  would  be  a  great 
relief  to  the  country  if  it  were  removed 
£rom  discussion,  ne  certainly  understood 
last  Session  that  an  attempt  would  be 
made  by  the  Government  to  deal  with  the 
question,  and  they  ought  not  to  shrink 
from  it. 

Mb.  BAINES,  in  seconding  the  Mo- 
tion, said,  that  tiie  subject  was  one  of  so 
much  importance,  and  had  occupied  so 
very  prominent  a  position  in  the  discus- 
nous  of  this  House  for  many  years,  and 
especiallv  last  Session,  that  he  could  not 
but  thins  it  was  ezoeedingly  right  for  the 
House  to  express  ito  regret  Oiat  no  men- 
tion was  made  of  the  subject  in  the 
Boyal  Speech. 
Mb.  BPEASXBs   The  hon.  Member 

for  Sheffield  is  quite  in  order  in  express- 
ing an  opinion  upon  the  subject ;  but  with 
regard  to  the  proposal  that  he  has  made, 
according  to  the  rules  of  this  House,  he  is 
not  in  order.  The  time  for  moving  an 
Amendment  to  the  Address  is  while  it  is 
under  discussion  for  the  second  reading ; 
but  after  the  Motion  has  been  put  from 
the  Chair  that  the  House  do  agree  with 
the  Committee  in  the  said  Besolutions, 
the  opportunity  has  passed.  Accordingly, 
he  cannot  now  move  the  Amendment. 
The  H^uestion  for  the  House  is  that  the 
House  do  agree  with  the  said  Address. 

Address  agreed  fo  ;  to  be  presented  by 
Privy  Councillors. 

Qukek's  Spbecb  to  be  eanridered  To- 



Mb.  HIBBERT  said,  the  Home  Secre- 
tary would  probably  be  able  to  answer  a 
Question,  of  which  he  had  privately  given 
him  notice — ^namely,  Whether  it  Ib  his 
intention  to  bring  in  any  Bill  based  on 
the  Beport  of  the  Eoyal  Commission  on 
Capital  Punishment;  and,  if  so,  whether 
that  Bill  will  contain  clauses  as  to  the 
mode  of  carrying  out  capital  punishment  ? 

Mb.  WALPOLE  said,  the  Bill  of  last 
year  did  not  come  down  from  the  House 
of  Lords  till  nearly  the  close  of  the  Ses- 
sion. The  Government,  exercising  the 
best  judgment  upon  the  subject  of  which 
they  were  capable,  thought  it  ought  to  be 
amended  in  point  of  form.  But  he  could 
now  inform  his  hon.  Priend  that  two  Bills 
had  been  already  prepared,  having  for 
their  object  to  separate  the  two  distinct 
branches  of  the  subject — ^namely,  one  re- 
lating to  the  law  of  murder,  the  other  to 
the  mode  in  which  capital  -offences  are 
to  be  carried  into  execution.  The  two 
Bills  would  shortly  be  introduced,  and 
hon.  Members  would  have  an  opportunity 
of  considering  their  provisions. 

Mb.  HADFIELD  wanted  toknow  whe- 
ther  the  Government  had  any  Bill  pre- 
pared founded  upon  the  Eeport  of  the 
Commission  on  Oaths  and  Dcckrations. 

Mb.  WALPOLE  :  No ;  there  is  no  Bill 
prepared  at  the  present  moment,  because 
the  Commission  has  not  as  yet  made  its 


On  Motion  of  Mr.  Atbtov,  Bill  to  sppropriAto 
a  portion  of  (he  inooftio  of  the  estate  Islolj  be^ 






longioff  to  the  Prebeod  of  Fioslmrjr*  in  the  Oa- 
ihedral  of  St  Paul,  London,  for  the  relief  of 
spiritual  destitntion  in  the  Motropolii,  ordered  to 
be  brought  in  hj  Mr.  Atbtov  and  Mr.  Locsa. 
Bi}\pr€9enuif  and  read  the  iint  time.  [Bill  1.] 

Amnnrr  tax  aboutiok  (iDnrBUsaH, 


On  Motion  of  Mr.  M'Uuir,  Bill  to  aholish  the 
Annuit/  Tax,  or  Ministers'  Money,  in  the  Parish 
of  Ganongate  within  Edinburgh,  and  to  make  pro* 
▼ision  in  regard  to  the  Stipends  of  the  Ministers 
in  that  narish  and  eity,  ordered  to  be  brought  in 
bj  Mr.  M'LAniir,  Jilr.  Du]n.op,and  Mr.  BasSkb. 

BiU  |>rM«iKde2,  and  read  the  first  time.  [Bill  3.] 

jonn!  STOCK  coxpaviss  (totikg  papers) 


On  Motion  of  Mr.  Dabbt  GRirmH,  Bill  to 
afford  Shareholders  of  Joint  Stook  Companies  ia- 
eilities  for  TOting  bj  means  of  Voting  Papers, 
ordered  to  be  brought  in  hj  Mr.  Dabbt  CrBxrviTH, 
Mr.  Robert  Toeuxs,  and  Mr.  Vam ox. 

Bill  presented,  and  read  the  first  time.  [Bill  8.] 

Hoase  adjourned  at  a  quarter 
before  One  acloek. 


Tkuradaff,  FOnrmry  7,  1867. 

MINUTES.]  — 5a<  First  in  ParKofn^iie  — The 
Marquees  of  Exeter,  after  the  Death  of  his 

Pubuo  Bojm ^-First  iZAKftt^— Masters  and 
Operatires  (3);  Publio  Schools  (4);  Traffic 
Regulation  (Metropolis)  *  (5) ;  Lis  pendens  * 

•    (•)• 



Lobs  ST.  LEONABDS  presented  a  Bill 
for  eatablishiiig  courts  of  arbitration  or  con- 
ciliation for  the  settlement  of  disputes  be- 
tween masters  and  workmen.  It  is  neces- 
saiy,  the  noble  Lord  remarked,  to  take  some 
steps  for  preyenting  the  strikes  which  are 
so  detrimental  to  our  industry  and  mana- 
ftctures.  To  put  a  stop  to  a  strike  bj 
laW|  when  once  it  has  commenced,  is  per- 
fectly impossible,  because  a  state  of  war 
is  then  established  between  the  master 
and  his  workmen,  and  this  can  be  termi- 
nated by  nothing  but  victory  on  the  one 
side  or  the  other.  If,  however,  courts  of 
conciliation  are  established,  there  can  be 
no  doubt  that  they  will  be  freely  resorted 
to,  and  that  their  action  will  tend  both  to 

prevent  and  to  arrange  disputes.  Under  the 
Bill  which  he  proposed  to  introduce,  leave 
will  be  given  to  the  masters  and  men  in 
everj  district  to  establish  such  courts; 
but  It  will  not  be  compulsory  upon  them 
to  do  so,  nor  even  to  submit  to  their  juris- 
diction when  they  are  established.  If, 
however,  either  masters  or  men  do  attend 
them,  and  do  refer  their  disputes  to  them, 
then  the  decision  pronounced  by  these  tri- 
bunals will  have  judicial  force  and  would 
be  enforceable  by  law.  The  principle  of 
the  Bill  has  received  the  approval  of  a 
deputation  of  operatives  representiDg; 
100,000  men  engaged  in  the  building; 
trades  of  the  metropolis,  who  had  an  inter- 
view with  him  a  short  time  ago. 

A  Bill  to  establish  equitable  Conncils  of  Conci- 
liation to  adjust  Diflbronoes  between  Masters  and 
Operatives — Was  presented  bj  The  Lord  Sr. 
LioHAxni ;  read  I*.    (No.  8.) 

FKisxirrED.    nnsi  BXAniNO. 

TseEabl  of  DERBY,  in  laying  on  the 
table  a  Bill  to  give  effect  to  the  recom- 
mendations of  the  Eoyal  Commission  on 
Public  Schools,  stated  that  the  measure 
was  almost  identical  with  tbai  which  had 
been  introduced  last  year,  but  which  was 
sent  to  the  other  House  of  Parliament  at 
so  late  a  period  of  the  Session  that  it  was 
found  impossible  to  pass  it  into  law. 

A  Bill  to  make  further  Provision  for  the  good 
Government  and  Extension  of  oertain  Pnblle 
Sohools — ^Wai  presetUed  bj  The  Earl  of  Dbbbt  ; 
rsMil*.    (No.  4.) 



The  Eabl  of  BELMOBE  moved^ 

**  That  an  humble  Address  be  presented  to  Her 
Msjostj,  for  Copies  of  a  Circular  Letter  from  the 
Home  Ome  to,  and  Reports  from,  the  Inspeeton 
of  Mines  to  the  SeoretM7  of  State  for  the  Home 
Department  as  to  the  reoent  Aooidents  and  Ex* 
plosions  in  Coal  Mines." 

LoBD  WHABI^^CLIFFE,  in  moving  for 
further  papers,  said,  he  hoped  he  might 
regard  the  Motion  of  the  noble  Earl  as  an 
indication  that  the  attention  of  the  Govern- 
ment was  directed  to  the  important  quee- 
tion  of  the  inspection  of  mines.  Living  as 
he  did  in  the  neighbourhood  of  the  scene  of 
one  of  the  recent  calamities,  he  had  given 
much  consideration  to  the  subject,  and 
thought  that  the  law  ought  to  be  amended 
so  as  to  give  inspectors  of  mines  additional 
powers.    In  one   instaooo  which  came 


{FebbvastTi  1867) 

Ml  Oriisa. 


vithin  his  own  knowledge  a  mine  was 
Buppoaed  to  be  in  a  dangerous  state.  The 
person  who  was  interested  in  it  warned 
those  who  worked  in  it  of  the  danger,  and 
at  the  same  time  a  letter  was  written  to 
tibe  Government  inspector,  who  replied 
that  nothing  ooold  be  done  in  the  matter. 
The  number  of  inspectors  at  present  exist- 
ing was  quite  inadequate  to  the  work  to 
be  performed.  lasted  of  their  visiting 
mines  only  when  they  were  reported  to  be 
unsafe,  every  mine  ought  to  be  regularly 
and  periodically  inspected.  He  hoped  that 
the  Government  would  devote  their  atten- 
tion to  the  subject,  and  would  introduce 
the  necessary  amendments  into  the  Act  of 

Ths  Eabl  07  BELMOBE,  in  reply, 
said,  that  there  would  be  no  objection  to 
produce  the  document  desired  by  the  noble 
Lord ;  and  further  stated  that  it  was  the 
intention  of  the  Home  Secretary  to  refer 
all  the  papers  to  the  Committee  of  the 
House  of  GoDunons  which  sat  last  Session 
to  inquire  into  the  subject  of  the  inspec- 
tion of  mines,  and  which  it  was  intended 
to  re-appoint  this  year.  He  entirely  agreed 
with  the  noble  Lord  as  to  the  insufficiency 
of  the  number  of  inspectors.  Mr.  Wynne, 
the  inspector  of  the  Staffordshire  district, 
told  him  the  other  day  that  he  had  under 
his  charge  300  or  more  collieries  and  900 
mines;  and  that  he  could  never  inspect 
more  than  three  mines  a  day,  and  some- 
times only  one.  It  was  therefore  impos- 
sible that  he  could  make  an  inspection  of 
each  of  these  mines  as  often  even  as  once 
a  year. 

Motion  amended,  and  agreed  to. 

Address  for«- 

Copiet  of  a  Ciroalar  Letter  from  the  Ilome 
OflBoe  to,  and  Reports  from,  the  Inspeotors  of 
Biinei  to  the  Secretary  of  State  for  the  Home 
Department  on  the  recent  Accidents  and  Ezplo- 
tions  in  Coal  Mines ;  together  with  the  Letter  of 
Instmetions  of  20th  January  1867,  from  the  Se- 
eretary  of  State  lor  the  Home  Department  to 
Mr.  Sothem  the  recently  appointed  Inspector  of 
Mines.— (  Tha  Earl  of  Belmore.) 



A  Bill  for  regulating  the  Traffic  in  the  Metro- 

Silis,  and  for  making  Provision  for  the  greater 
eenrity  of  Persons  passing  through  the  Streets  ; 
and  for  other  purposes — ^Was  pretenUd  hy  The 
Barl  of  Baufois ;  read  1».    (No.  6.) 

UB  nomiNa  bill  [h.l.] 

A  Bill  to  amend  the  Companies  Aet»  1882,  and 
abo  the  Aet  pmed  ia  ths  Seaaioa  Md  in  the 

Twenty-third  and  Twenty-fourth  Tears  of  the 
Reign  of  Her  M^esty,  intituled  *'  An  Act  to  sim- 
plify and  amend  the  Practice  as  to  the  Entry  of 
Satisfiiction  on  Crown  Debts  and  on  Judgments" 
— ^Was  preienUd  by  The  Lord  Sv.  LioirABDS ; 
readl*.    (No.  6.) 

House  adjourned  at  a  quarter  before  Six 

o'clock,  till  To-morrow,  a  ouarter 

before  Five  o  clock. 


Tkureiayi  Febrmry  7,  1867. 

MINUTES.]— Nbw  Whit  Issusd— Fdr  Cork 
County,  V.  George  Richard  Barry,  esquire,  de- 

SiLEOT  CoionTTix — On  Kitchen  and  Refresh- 
ment Rooms  (House  of  Commons)  appoinUd 
and  nomncUed. 

Public  Bills — Retolutioni  in  Commttee  Ship- 
ping  Local  Dues ;  Transubstantiation,  Ac  De- 
claration Abolition  ;  Offices  and  Oaths. 

Ordered — Rulway  Companies'  Arrangements  ; 
Shippinff  Local  Dues  ;  Transubstantiation, 
d(C.  Declaration  Abolition ;  Offices  and  Oaths. 

Firtt  iZeeu^n^— Railway  Companies'  Arrange- 
ments [4]  I  Shipping  Local  Dues  [5] ;  Tran- 
substantiation, d(o.  Declaration  Abolition  [61; 
Offices  and  Oaths  [7]. 



the  Secretary  for  India,  Whether  he  is 
able  to  report  any  oondderable  decrease  in 
the  famine  in  Orissa;  and  he  wished,  in 
addition,  to  ask  whether  the  noble  Lord 
is  prepared  to  lay  any  papers  relating 
to  Uie  subject  on  the  table  of  the  House  ? 

YisoouNT  CBAKfiOURNE :  Yes,  I  am 
happy  to  say  that  a  considerable  decrease 
of  the  famine  has  been  reported.  In  fact, 
distress  now  only  exists  in  those  districts 
in  which  the  inundations  of  last  autumn 
destroyed  the  growing  crops.  In  those 
districts  there  will  be,  I  fear,  considerable 
distress,  but  they  are  only  of  rery  limited 
extent.  With  regard  to  the  papers,  I  hope 
that  I  shall  be  able  to  lay  them  before  the 
House  at  an  early  period ;  but  until  the 
Report  of  the  Commission  appointed  to 
inquire  into  the  subject  has  been  receiyed, 
I  do  not  think  it  would  be  just  to  officers 
of  Gk>Temment  in  the  Presidency  of  Ben- 
gal  to  lay  before  the  House  the  rery  par- 
tial information  which  we  at  present 


Opmng  of 




9H0  oMN0fl« 


Mb.  OANDLISH  askod  the  President 
of  the  Board  of  Trade,  If  it  is  his  inten« 
tion  to  introduce  a  measure  to  consolidate 
and  amend  the  Laws  regulating  our  Mer- 
cantile Marine  ? 

am  aware  that  it  is  an  object  of  consider- 
able importance  to  consolidate  and  amend 
the  laws  relating  to  our  Mercantile  Marine. 
I  am  afraid,  howeyer,  the  task  is  one  of 
great  difficulty  and  labour.  That,  how- 
ever, would  not  be  any  reason  for  our 
declining  to  undertake  it  The  reason 
why  we  are  not  now  prepared  with  a 
measure  of  the  kind  is  this:— It  is  our 
intention  to  introduce  a  Bill  containing 
several  important  Amendments  of  the  pre- 
sent law,  and  I  think  it  will  be  much 
more  satisfactory  to  discuss  these  Amend- 
ments by  themselves.  The  Bill  will  be 
introduced  into  the  House  as  early  as  the 
state  of  public  business  will  allow.  If 
we  shall  be  able  within  a  reasonable  time 
to  pass  it,  I  hope  we  shall  have  time  to 
prepare  a  Consolidation  Bill  and  to  lay  it 
on  the  table  of  the  House  before  the  end 
of  the  Session,  so  that  it  may  be  well 
considered  before  the  discussion  be  taken 
on  it  in  the  following  Session. 


Lonn  ERNEST  BRUCE  asked  the  Se- 
cretary of  State  for  the  Home  Department, 
By  whose  authority  Sir  Richard  Mayne, 
Chief  Commissioner  of  the  Police  of  the 
Metropolis,  issued  certain  Orders  to  the 
police  that  no  Members  of  Parliament  be 
allowed  to  approach  the  Houses  of  Parlia^ 
ment  in  their  carriages  after  a  certain  hour 
on  the  occasion  of  Her  Majesty  graciously 
opening  Parliament  in  person;  and  why, 
when  fiiey  were  by  this  order  obliged  to 
descend  ttom  their  carriages,  no  path  what- 
ever was  kept  open  for  them ;  whether  it 
was  not  the  undoubted  constitutional  right 
of  Members  to  attend  Her  Majesty  on  such 
an  occasion;  and  whether  such  Order  of  the 
Commissioner  of  Police  was  not  in  direct 
defianoe  of  a  Sessional  Order  of  that  House; 
and  why  the  hoarding  the  whole  length  of 
Bridge  Street  was  kept,  and  still  kept^ 
entirely  closed } 

Mb.  CRAWFORD  said,  that  as  this 
was  a  question  which  oonoexaed  very 

nearly  the  privileges  of  the  House,  he 
elaimed  this  opportunity  of  stating,  by 
way  of  complaint,  what  his  own  expe- 
rience had  been  in  coming  from  the  City 
on  Tuesday  last.  On  arriving  at  the  Sur- 
rey side  of  Westminster  Bridge  he  was 
stopped  by  a  cordon  of  police  and  informed 
that  he  could  not  pass  over  the  bridge.  Ho 
stated  that  he  was  a  Member  of  the  House 
of  Commons,  and  was  proceeding  to  West- 
minster to  discharge  a  public  duty.  Some 
demur  was  made,  but  eventually  he  was 
allowed  to  go  on.  On  arriving  at  the  West- 
minster side  of  the  bridge,  he  found  that 
he  could  not  reach  the  House  by  the  usual 
mode  of  access  through  Palace  Yard  in 
consequence  of  the  hoarding  which  had 
been  extended  much  further  than  it  was 
last  Session.  He  found  also  that  Bridge 
Street  was  entirely  blocked  up  by  an  im- 
mense concourse  of  persons,  so  that  he 
could  not  get  through  by  that  route. 
There  was  no  policeman  at  hand  to  refer 
to ;  and  he  had,  therefore,  to  consider  whe- 
ther he  should  force  his  way  through 
the  crowd,  or  choose  the  alternative  of 
re-crossing  the  bridge  and  going  over 
Lambeth  or  Blackfriars  Bridge,  il^nding 
retreat  very  difficult,  he  essayed  the  task 
of  finding  his  way  through  the  crowd. 
After  considerable  difficulty  he  sucoeeded 
in  getting  through  the  barrier  to  the  other 
side  owing  to  the  friendly  intervention  of 
a  policeman.  When  he  reached  Parliament 
Street  he  was  in  a  state  in  which  it  would 
hardly  have  been  decent  to  present  him- 
self to  that  House.  His  boots  had  been 
trodden  on,  and  his  clothes  were  covered 
with  mud.  Kow,  what  happened  to  him 
happened  also  to  several  other  Members  of 
that  House,  among  whom  he  might  mention 
the  Member  for  Dover,  the  Member  for 
Buckingham,  the  Member  for  Inverness, 
and  the  Member  for  Bridgwater.  The 
hon.  Member  for  Inverness  had  to  return 
over  Westminster  Bridge  and  proceed  in 
a  cab  over  Waterloo  Bridge^  and  so  to 
Charing  Cross,  where  he  was  told  he  must 
alight  He  did  so,  and  proceeded  on  foot 
to  the  House  through  the  pelting  rain  and 
mud  two  inches  deep.  On  the  other  side 
of  Westminster  Bridge  Members  were 
called  on  to  identify  themselves  by  show- 
ing their  cards  or  in  some  other  way. 
Now,  he  maintained  this  was  subjecting 
them  to  a  great  indignity.  He  did  not 
complain  on  account  of  his  personal  incon- 
venience— ^indeed,  it  might  be  regarded  as 
a  subject  of  pleasantry  by  some  persons — 
and  is  £»  the  crowd  he  had  no  oomi 


Ihdia — 

{IpBBBtTABT  y,  1867}  Iniian  Bnigd. 


to  make  against  them,  as  he  had  never 
seen  so  vast  a  concourse  of  people  in  such 
good  spirits  and  so  happy.  He  should,  in 
fact,  he  the  last  person  to  complain  of  their 
yery  natural  hilarity,  and  had  no  wish  to 
interfere  with  what  was  regarded  as  an 
annual  holyday.  What  he  complained  of 
was  the  manner  in  which  the  Police  Order 
had  heen  issued.  Ko  steps  had  heen  taken 
to  provide  that  persons  coming  from  the 
City  to  the  House  of  Parliament  over  West- 
minster Bridge — as  he  himself  had  heen 
accustomed  to  do  for  the  last  ten  years 
-—should  not  he  debarred  from  coming  to 
the  House.  He  wished  to  ask  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman  the  Secretary  of  State 
for  the  Home  Department,  whether  the 
Order  issued  by  Sir  Eiohard  Mayne  was 
an  annual  one,  and  issued  as  a  matter  of 
course;  and,  whether  steps  would  be  taken 
on  similar  oooasions  to  facilitate  the  access 
of  Members  to  the  House  ? 

Mb.  WALPOLE  :  With  regard  to  the 
observations  which  have  just  Mien  from 
the  hen.  Member  for  the  City  of  London 
(Mr.  Crawford),  I  have  to  say  that  I  was 
not  aware  of  the  personal  InconTenience 
to  which  he  had  been  exposed  on  the  occa- 
sion of  the  opening  of  Parliament,  or  I 
should  have  made  particular  inquiries  into 
the  matter.  In  regard  to  the  Question 
addressed  to  me  by  the  noble  Loid  (Lord 
Ernest  Bruce),  I  think  he  will  find  he  is 
entirely  mistaken  in  his  impression  as  to 
the  Orders  issued  to  the  police.  The  noble 
Lord  asks ''  by  whose  authority  Sir  Bichard 
Mayne,  Chief  Commissioner  of  the  Police 
of  the  Metropolis,  issued  certain  Orders  to 
the  police  that  no  Members  of  Parliament  be 
allowed  to  approach  the  Houses  of  Parlia- 
ment in  their  carriages  after  a  certain  hour 
on  the  occasion  of  Her  Majesty  graciously 
opening  Parliament  in  person  ?''  And  then 
he  goes  on  to  ask,  "  Why,  when  they  were 
by  this  Order  obliged  to  descend  from  their 
carriages,  no  path  whatever  was  kept  open 
for  them } "  Kow,  my  reply  is  simply  this. 
No  such  Order  as  is  referred  to  in  that 
Question  has  been  issued  by  Sir  Bichard 
Mayne.  I  hold  in  my  hand  extracts  firom 
the  Orders  issued  by  Sir  Bichard  Mayne  in 
reference  to  the  access  of  Members  to  the 
Housea  of  Parliament,  which  will  dear  up 
the  misapprehension  existing  on  the  sub- 
ject.   The  first  extract  is  this-— 

**  No  earriage  or  Tefaiole  of  any  sort  is  to  bo 
allowed  to  pan  between  Charing  OroM  and  the 
Hooses  of  Parliament  from  the  boars  of  11  a.m. 
.nnttl  4  p.m.,  except  the  oarriages  of  Peers  and 
Members  of  the  Hoose  of  Commons,  or  those  of 
perwDs  haTing  tickets  of  adminion  to  the  Houses 

of  Parliament,  or  of  persons  going  to  any  house 
between  Charing  Cross  and  i^bingdon  Street. 
The  earriages  of  persons  having  tiokets  of  admis« 
sion  to  the  Houses  of  Parliament,  or  those  going 
to  any  house  between  Charing  Cross  and  the 
Houses  of  Parliament,  may  pass  until  1  p.m.» 
and  the  carriages  of  Peers  or  Members  of  Par- 
liament may  pass  until  the  arrival  of  the  prooes- 
sion  of  Her  Majesty  at  the  Horse  Guards,  after 
which  hour  no  oarriages  are  to  be  permitted  to 
pass  between  Charing  Cross  and  Abingdon  Street 
until  Her  Majesty  has  passed  through  Whitehall 
on  returning  from  opening  Parliament." 

Hon.  Members  are  mistaken,  therefore,  in 
supposing  that  any  Order  was  given  that 
Members  of  Parliament  should  be  stopped. 
If  any  Member  was  required  to  alight 
firomms  carriage  and  walk  through  the 
mud,  contrary  to  this  Order,  I  regret  it 
yery  much.  But,  there  was  also  an  Order 
issued  with  regard  to  the  approach  over 
Westminster  Bridge.  This  paitioular  Order 
directs  that — 

"  Erery  possible  facility  is  to  be  giren  to  the 
earriages  of  Peers  and  Members  of  the  House  of 
Commons  in  proceeding  to  and  leaving  the  Houses 
of  Parliament." 

The  police  had  strict  injunctions  to  act 
upon  these  Orders.  If  they  mistook  their 
instructions,  and  if  any  Member  of  Par* 
liament  was  put  to  inconvenienoe,  all  I 
can  say,  as  I  have  said  before,  is  that  I 
extremely  r^et  it  One  word  with  re* 
gard  to  the  crowd  of  which  the  hon. 
Qentleman  opposite  complains.  This  year 
there  was  an  unusual  crowd  between  the 
Houses  of  Parliament  and  Parliament 
Street,  partly  in  consequence  of  the  works 
there.  The  hoarding  raised  is  one  neces- 
sary for  the  works,  and  temporary  incon- 
venience is  thereby  occasioned.  The  ap- 
proaches from  Victoria  Street  and  the  end 
of  Bridge  Street  are  closed,  and  on  Tues* 
day  the  foot  passengers  collected  in  such 
crowds  between  Parliament  Street  and 
Westminster  Bridge,  that  it  was  hardly  in 
the  power  of  the  police  to  keep  a  passage 
clear.  This  is  the  explanation  which  I 
have  to  offer.  If  the  hon.  Q^itleman 
opposite  has  anv  further  complaint  to 
make,  I  shall  be  happy  to  inquire  into  it. 
With  reference  to  his  last  observation,  that 
instructions  should  be  given  in  future  to 
prevent  inconvenience  to  Members  of  Par- 
liament, I  may  say  that  such  instructions 
shall  certainly  be  given,  and  that  any  ad- 
ditional precaution  which  may  tend  to 
prevent  inconvenience  shall  be  taken.  . 


Mb.  J.  B.  SMITH  asked  the  Seoretaiy 
of  State  for  India,  Whether  any  and  what 






arrangements  hare  been  made  to  present  to 
Parliament  the  Indian  Acooonts  at  the 
commencement  of  the  Session ;  and,  whe* 
ther  he  intends  to  adhere  to  the  practice 
hitherto  adopted  of  bringing  forward  the 
Indian  Budget  in  the  last  week  of  the 
Session  of  Parliament  ? 

YisootnrTGEANBOUENE :  Orders  were 
issued  by  Lord  de  Grey  for  the  prepara- 
tion of  the  Indian  financial  accounts  in 
conformity  with  the  English  financial  ao- 
counis  up  to  the  31st  of  March.  Till  very 
recently  I  imagined  that  the  aocounto 
would  be  presented  this  year  under  that 
order;  but  I  have  received  a  telegram 
within  the  last  few  days  stating  that  it 
could  not  be  done  until  next  year.  The 
bringing  forward  the  Indian  Budget,  as 
the  hon.  Gentleman  well  knows,  does  not 
depend  on  the  time  at  which  the  accounts 
are  laid  upon  the  table,  but  on  the  busi- 
ness of  the  House  with  respect  to  other 
matters.  In  future  Indian  accounts  are 
to  be  made,  like  the  English  accounts,  up 
to  the  31st  of  March. 

H.M.S.  "GANNET"  AND  TflE  "  AROUCA." 


Mb.  LAMONT  asked  the  First  Lord  of 
the  Admiralty,  Whether  it  is  true  that 
the  Captain  of  Her  Majesty's  ship  Gannet 
revised  or  delayed  to  proceed  to  the  assist- 
ance of  a  Scotch  merchant  yessel,  called 
Uie  Arouea  of  Glasgow,  in  distress  off  the 
Island  of  Trinidad  in  the  month  of  No- 
vember last;  whether  it  is  true  that  a 
French  steamer  did  actually  render  the  re- 
quired assistance  to  the  distressed  vessel 
while  the  Oannet  lay  at  anchor ;  and,  whe- 
ther he  will  object  to  lay  upon  the  table 
of  the  House  any  Papers  which  he  may 
have  received  relating  to  the  subject  ? 

Sn  JOHN  PAXINGTON :  No  official 
information  has  reached  the  Admiralty  on 
the  subject  of  the  hon.  Member's  Ques- 
tions. I  understand  there  was  a  state- 
ment made  on  the  subject  in  a  Trinidad 
newspaper,  which  I  have  not  seen.  If 
there  was  a  statement  relative  to  this 
complaint  in  that  paper,  I  have  little 
doubt  that  the  circumstance  will  have 
been  brought  under  the  notice  of  the  naval 
Ck)mmander-in-Ghief  of  the  Station ;  and 
I  think  it  probable  that  by  the  next  mail 
I  shall  receive  information  on  the  subject. 
If  so,  I  diall  be  able  to  communicate  it ; 
and,  in  any  case,  if  the  hon.  Gentleman 
desires  it,  I  shall  be  happy  to  make  in« 
quiry  on  the  sulrjeet. 

Jfr.  /.  B.  SmUh 


Mb.  AxDESxur  LUSK  asked  the  Secre- 
tary of  State  for  Foreign  Afiairs,  Whether 
the  attention  of  Her  Majesty's  Government 
has  been  directed  to  the  seizure  by  the 
Spanish  Authorities  of  an  English  Steam 
Yessel,  called  the   Tornado,  on  the  high, 
seas,  in  August  last,  and  to  the  imprison- 
ment and  trial  of  llie  crew ;  and,  if  ao, 
whether  the  Government  has  taken  any 
steps  to  ascertain  if  the  capture  is  lawful; 
if  the  representations  concerning  the  handi 
treatment  of  the  men  are  well  founded  or 
not;  and  if  there  is  any  probability  of 
their  being  soon  released  and  sent  home  to 
tins  Country  ? 

Lord  STANLEY :  Ever  since  the  cap- 
ture of  the  Tornado  in  August  last  the 
case  has  occupied  the  careful  and  anxioaa 
consideration  of  the  Gh>vemment.  We 
have  watched  it  in  all  its  stages,  and  we 
have  been  in  frequent,  I  may  say,  almost 
continual  communication  upon  it  with  the 
Law  Officers  of  the  Grown.  According  to 
the  well- understood  rule  of  International 
Law,  we  had  no  right  to  object  to  the  trial 
of  the  vessel  taking  place  hiefore  a  Spanish 
Prise  Court;  but  we  did  remonstrate 
strenuously,  and  more  than  once,  against 
what  appeared  to  us  to  be  the  unreasonable 
length  of  time  occupied  in  the  preliminary 
investigation.  Within  the  last  few  weeks 
we  have  had  all  the  proceedings  before  us. 
Acting  under  legal  advice,  we  have  found 
ourselves  authorised  and  compelled  to  pro- 
test against  the  illegal  and  informal  cha- 
racter of  some  of  the  proceedings  of  that 
Court ;  that  protest  has  only  very  lately 
been  receired  by  the  Spanish  Government 
and  I  am  not  yet  able  to  say  what  the 
result  of  it  will  be.  With  regard  to  the 
treatment  of  the  men,  and  generally  with 
regard  to  details,  I  think  the  best  answer 
I  can  give  to  the  hon.  Member  will  be  to 
ask  him  to  wait  a  few  days,  when  all 
the  papers  relating  to  the  transaction  will 
be  laid  before  the  House. 

Qttxeh's  Speech  eonridored. 

Motion,  '*  That  a  Suppler  be  granted  to 
Her  Majesty :''  — Committee  thereupon 

89       Baiho§f/  CmpmM        (  Fsbevaht  7»  1 86  Y  )         ArrtrngmimU  Bill. 



UBiLTB.     VIBfil  ssAsma. 

Bib  8TAFF0BD  NORTHOOTE,  in  ask- 
ing  for  leave  to  introdaee  a  Bill  to  make 
better  proviaion  for  the  arrangementa  of 
the  afiTaira  of  Bailway  Companies  nnable  to 
meet  their  engagements,  said :  I  think  the 
Honae  will  not  be  sorprised  that  the  posi- 
tion of  the  railway  oompanies  in  this 
country  should  have  attracted  the  attention 
of  Her  Majesty's  QoTemment.  In  point 
of  fact,  there  are  few  questions  which  have 
been  more  before  the  pnblio  of  late  than 
the  embarrassed  position  of  some  of  our 
railway  companiea—especially  the  embar- 
rassed position  of  one  of  them.  Many 
important  questions  affectiug  the  future 
position  of  railways  and  the  relations  of 
the  companies  and  the  State  may,  at  the 
proper  time»  engage  the  attention  of  Par- 
liameut,  and  to  these  it  will  be  right  that 
the  Oovemment  should  by-and-bye  draw 
attention  ;  but  I  think  that  we  are  not  at 
the  present  moment  ripe  for  the  considera- 
tion of  many  of  these  questions,  because 
the  Boyal  Commission  which  was  appointed 
a  short  time  since  to  consider  the  import- 
ant points  in  our  railway  system  is  still 
sitti^,  and  has  not  yet  presented  its 
Eeport.  I  understand,  however,  that  it  is 
nearly  completed,  and  when  it  is  presented 
to  the  House  it  will,  of  course,  be  the  duty 
of  ti^e  Government  to  take  it  into  serious 
consideration,  and  they  may  think  it  their 
duty,  upon  the  recommendations  contained 
in  &at  Report,  to  make  proposals  to  this 
House,  which  it  is  now,  of  course,  quite 
impossible  to  anticipate.  I  do  not,  then, 
thmk  that  this  is  the  proper  time  for  con- 
sidering many  of  the  questions  which 
affect  railways,  and  to  which  public  atten- 
tion has  been  directed ;  but  there  is  one 
urgent  question,  of  great  magnitude,  to 
wmch  we  think  it  is  desirable  the  atten- 
tion of  Parliament  should  be  directed,  and 
that  is  the  question  of  the  arrangements 
t^  shall  be  made  in  the  case  of  railway 
companies  which  are  unfortunately  unable 
to  meet  their  engagements.  The  Gh>vem- 
ment  has  thought  it  desirable  to  bring 
their  proposal  before  the  House  at  the  com- 
mencement of  the  Session — partly  because 
th^  wish  that  the  House  should  have  an 
early  opportunity  of  considering  the  views 
they  haveto  submit  to  it,  and  partly  because 
of  the  actual  case  of  cortain  railway  com- 
pames  who  are  now  in  a  position  of  some 
There  ia  nothing  in  what  I 

shall  say  to  the  House,  or  in  the  plan  which 
I  shall  have  to  propose,  which  will  neces- 
sarily interfere  with  any  arrangements 
now  pending;  but  it  is  possible  that  after 
the  views  of  the  Government  have  been 
stated  upon  this  subject,  and  when  the 
opinion  of  the  House  has  been  taken  on 
the  course  that  ought  to  be  pursued  with 
regard  to  insolvent  railway  companies, 
those  views  and  opinions  may  have  some 
bearing  on  the  proceedings  of  companies 
which  are  now  coming  before  Parliament 
with  reference  to  arrangements.  It  ia 
quite  unnecessary  that  I  should  enlarge 
upon  the  importance  to  the  public  of  an 
inquiry  into  this  question ;  but  I  wish,  in 
opening  the  discussion,  to  find  some  safe 
ground  to  start  from,  and  some  principle  I 
can  take  as  my  guide  on  the  question  we 
have  to  consider.  The  ground  I  start  from 
is  this— that  the  matter  is  one  of  pub- 
Uo  interest,  and  that  the  principle  on 
which  we  ought  to  proceed  in  any  sug- 
gestions we  may  have  to  offer  for  the 
solution  of  the  difficulties  in  which  railway 
companies  find,  or  may  find  themselves, 
should  be  that  of  an  adherence  to  the  pub* 
lie  interest.  We  must  look  on  railways  as 
undertakings  which  have  been  specially 
favoured  by  Parliament — ^not  for  the  sake 
of  the  persons  who  undertake  to  con- 
struct them— not  for  the  sake  of  the 
shareholders,  the  creditors,  or  any  other 
class  of  persons  interested  in  them,  but  as 
undertakings  to  which  Parliament  has  af- 
forded great  facilities,  because  they  were 
considered  to  be  of  importance  to  the 
communication  of  the  country,  and  for 
various  public  purposes,  to  which  I  need 
not  enter  into  detail;  and  therefore  Par- 
liament has  a  right  to  say,  ''  We  wiU  take 
care  that  tliese  underti^ings  which  we 
have  encouraged,  and  to  which  we  have 
granted  such  facilities,  shall  really  be  of 
advantage  to  the  public,*'  and  if  we  per- 
ceive, in  the  course  of  the  undertaking, 
that  the  circumstances  of  the  company  will 
not  enable  it  to  carry  on  its  undertak- 
ings beneficially  for  the  public  and  con- 
sistently with  public  security,  then  I  think 
Parliament  has  a  right  to  come  forward 
and  say,  we  will  endeavour  to  remedy 
those  evils;  and  whilst  we  are  prepared 
to  give  all  due  attention  and  consideration 
to  the  rights  of  individuals,  we  have  a 
right  to  demand  that  some  arrangement 
shall  be  made  for  securing  the  rights 
of  the  public.  If  we  start  on  this  prin- 
oiple,  then,  I  think  there  will  be  very 
little  difficulty  in  applying  it  to  the  case 

01         Jggiwy  Ooti^miieif 


Arrmigmmh  JBiU. 


of  a  railway  oompany  in  sadh  a  state 
of  finaoeial  embarraMment  as  to  be  unable 
to  properly  oonduet  its  bnsinesa.  This  is 
a  matter  which  affects  not  only  the  pnblio 
oonyenienoe  but  the  public  safety;  and  to 
these  ends  it  is  essential  that  railways 
should  be  in  the  hands  of  companies  pos- 
sessed of  sufficient  funds  to  carry  them  on 
in  a  proper  way,  to  supply  the  proper  and 
necessary  appliances  for  working,  to  keep 
the  permanent  way  in  proper  and  sub- 
stanual  repair,  and  provide  those  train 
services  and  other  mcilities  which  the 
public  have  a  right  to  expect.  When, 
however^  we  find  that  a  railway  oompany 
is  in  a  position  of  insolvency,  and  is  un- 
able to  meet  its  engagements,  Parliament 
is  entitled  to  say,  on  behalf  of  the  public, 
that  this  company  ought,  in  some  way  or 
another,  to  give  up  the  task  which  it  is 
unable  to  accomplish  to  other  hands  who 
are  able  to  so.  When  I  use  the  expression 
that  such  railways  should  give  up  the  task 
to  more  competent  hands,  I  do  not  neces- 
sarily mean  that  the  existing  railway  com- 
panies should  sell  their  railways  to  some 
stranger  or  third  party,  because  the  object 
may  be  accomplished  by  such  a  re-arrange- 
ment of  their  affairs  as  would  render  them 
just  as  competent  to  carry  on  their  under- 
takings as  any  new  companies  founded  on 
a  sounder  basia.  All  I  now  contend  for  is 
t^at  it  is  our  daty  to  see,  if  a  railway 
4K)mpany  cannot  satisikctorily  work  its 
railway,  that  some  provision  should  be 
made  for  placing  it  in  the  hands  of  those 
who  can.  Having  got  so  far  as  that  in 
the  consideration  of  the  matter  which  I 
am  endeavouring  to  lay  before  the  House, 
I  find  that  I  am  met  with  difficulties  on 
Hit  side  of  the  law.  Aa  the  law  stands  it 
is  not  possible— at  all  events,  in  the  case 
of  unwilling  companies — to  force  anything 
on  them  in  the  nature  of  an  act  of  bank- 
ruptcy, and  it  is  not  possible  to  compel 
them  to  place  their  aflBeuirs  in  the  hands  of 
those  who  are  able  and  willing  to  work 
.the  lines  for  them.  Bailways  are  ex- 
pressly and  deliberately  excepted  from  the 
law  applicable  to  all  other  companies, 
under  which  other  companies  may  be 
made  bankrupt  when  unable  to  meet  their 
engagements;  and  although  railway  com- 
panies who  choose  to  register  under  the 
provisions  of  the  Joint  Stock  Companies 
Act  may  be  wound  up  under  that  Act, 
even  in  that  case  it  would  be  of  necessity 
an  imperfect  proceeding,  for  there  is  no 
authority  which  would  have  power  to  sell 
the  railway  or  to  make  any  arrangement 

as  is  made  in  the  case  of  other  under* 
takings,  or  to  transfer  it  to  other  hands. 
For  that  purpose  it  is  necessary  that  the 
railway  company  should  come  to  Parlia- 
ment l^ow,  if  that  is  the  state  of  the 
law,  we  must  look  at  it  not  only  aa  a 
matter  of  fact,  but  we  must  look  on  it  as 
being  an  incident  of  the  policy  on  whioli. 
the  law  is  founded.  It  is  not  a  mere 
omission  on  the  part  of  the  Legislature 
to  put  them  on  the  same  footing  as  other 
companies ;  railway  companies  are  ex- 
pressly and  deliberately  excepted  by  the 
Legislature  on  the  ground  that  their  an- 
dertakings,  being  of  a  public  character, 
are  on  a  different  footing  as  regards  the 
public  from  private  undertakings,  which 
are  carried  on  for  the  benefit  of  the  indi- 
viduals who  carry  them  on.  If  a  company, 
for  instance,  carrying  on  a  cotton-mill, 
should  be  found  unable  to  carry  on  its 
affairs  satisfiictorily,  it  may  be  made  bank- 
rupt, and  the  mill  sold ;  but  whether  the 
concern  be  carried  on,  or  the  mill  pulled 
down,  is  of  no  direct  or  immediate  interest 
to  the  public.  But  in  the  case  of  a  rail- 
way company  the  public  have  a  great 
interest  m  what  becomes  of  the  line; 
in  fact,  they  have  more  interest  in  what 
becomes  of  the  line  than  in  what  becomes 
of  the  company.  Parliament,  therefore, 
may  fairly  say  to  such  a  company,  **  When 
we  gave  you  the  power  to  make  this  line, 
we  did  not  at  the  same  time  empower  you 
to  transfer  it  to  whom  you  pleased ;  we 
allowed  you  to  work,  but  not  to  sell  it ; 
and  if  your  affairs  go  wrong  and  you  are 
obliged  to  sell,  we  must  have  a  voice  in. 
the  disposal  of  the  line."  When  we  con- 
sider tne  public  importance  of  railways, 
the  means  they  afford  of  communication 
throughout  the  country,  and  the  relation 
which  one  railway  system  bears  to  another, 
the  question  who  is  to  work  a  railway,  in 
whose  possession  it  is  to  be,  and  upon 
what  conditions  it  shall  work — all  these 
are  points  of  public  policy,  not  merely  of 
private  interest.  The  case,  therefore,  stands 
thus : — ^Although  it  is  of  importance  that 
an  insolvent  railway  company  shoul^bo 
relieved  from  duties  which  it  is  not  able 
to  perform,  and  that  provision  should  be 
made  for  the  better  performance  of  those 
duties,  the  existing  law  supplies  no  means 
of  accomplishing  such  an  object  without, 
first  of  all,  the  consent  of  the  company, 
and  its  registration  and  winding-up  under 
the  Joint  Stock  Companies  Act ;  and,  in 
the  next  place,  a  private  Act  of  Parliament 
permittinjf  the  sale  of  the  railwav«    Thc|t 

08       BaOidu^  Oompmieit        (Fb&waey  7, 1867)       JUtmgimmk  SiBL         94 

being  the  ease,  we  haye  to  consider  in 
wliat  way  we  are  do  deal  with  those  com- 
panies which  may  nnfbrtanately  bring 
tiiemselTes  into  tms  position.  The  first 
suggestion  might  be  that  yoa  should  in- 
tr^uce  into  your  legislation  pioyisions  for 
enabling  such  companies  to  be  wound  up 
adTcrsely  in  the  Court  of  Chancery.  But, 
if  you  do  that,  it  will  be  necessary  to 
adopt  provisions  directing  the  mode  in 
which  tile  railway  is  to  be  disposed  of, 
uid  also  provisions  to  meet  the  other 
droumstances  of  the  case.  This  must 
be  either  by  some  general  Act  appli- 
cable to  every  case,  or  the  provisions 
may  be  settled  by  some  other  authority 
than  that  of  Parliament.  The  most  ob- 
vious that  suggests  itself  is  the  Court 
of  Chancery,  and  that  that  Court,  or 
any  other  Court  in  which  the  company 
may  be  wound  up,  should  have  the 
power  to  prepare  a  scheme  for  the  dis- 
posal of  the  railway  and  the  property  of 
the  company.  But  if  you  were  to  give 
the  Court  cif  Chancery  this  power  there 
is  no  doubt  that  Parliament  would  insist 
that  the  scheme  should  not  be  adopted  and 
carried  into  effect  upon  the  sole  authority 
of  the  Court  of  Chancery,  but  should  be 
brought  before  the  House  for  its  approval 
or  disapproval  of  the  proposed  scheme. 
It  is  out  of  the  question  to  suppose  that 
Parliament  will  place  in  the  Court  of 
Chancery,  or  any  other  Court,  the  power 
of  makinga  final  arrangement  of  sudi  a 
matter.  With  every  respect  for  the  Court 
^f  Chancery,  I  do  not  think  the  Court  is 
eompetcnt  to  execute  such  functions.  No 
doubt  that  Court,  when  it  came  to  pre- 
pare a  sdieme,  would  contrive  in  some 
way  to  do  that  which  it  considered  best 
for  all  parties  interested  in  the  railway, 
and  as  between  shareholders  and  debentuiis- 
holdeis  and  other  creditors,  would  be  able 
to  prepare  as  just  and  equitable  a  scheme 
as  could  be  devised ;  but  when  it  became 
necessary  to  introduce  provisions  for  the 
interests  of  the  public,  then,  I  thmk,  a 
Court  of  Law  would  not  be  the  best  instru- 
ment for  framing  such  a  scheme.  Again, 
the  idea  of  introducing  into  a  general  Act 
of  Parliament  all  the  clauses  and  provisions 
necessary  to  meet  the  case  of  nulways  in 
embarrassed  circumstances  is  out  of  the 
question*  The  provisions  contained  in  any 
such  Act  must  be  extremely  daborato  to 
meet  eveiy  possible  variety  of  case  that 
can  be  oonceivedy  and  must  be  accom- 
panied with  guards  and  checks  of  every 
4N>siQdf»ble  description,  and  upon  every 

one  of  those  proviu<ms  questions  would 
arise  which  would  lead  to  doubts,  disputes, 
and  differences.  I  hardly  think  it  possible 
that  such  a  Bill  could  be  carried  through 
Parliament;  and  even  if  it  were,  I  think 
it  is  almost  certain  that  when  it  came 
to  be  worked,  many  cases  would  be  found 
to  have  been  omitted,  and  new  cases 
would  constantly  arise  for  which  no  pro- 
vision had  been,  or  could  possibly  have 
been,  made.  We  must  therefore  dismiss 
the  idea  either  of  dealing  with  tibie  matter 
through  the  Court  of  Chancery,  or  of  em- 
bodying provisions  in  a  general  Act  of 
Parliament  which  should  be  satisfactory. 
Various  suggestions  have  been  made  at 
different  times,  and  there  is  one  class  of 
suggestions  to  which  I  think  I  must  refer, 
because  great  prominence  has  beon  given 
to  it  It  has  been  said  by  certain  persons 
intorestedi  and  by  some  of  very  great 
authority,  that  the  matter  ought  really 
to  be  dealt  with  with  reference  espe- 
cially, if  not  ezdusivelv,  to  the  rights 
and  claims  of  the  debenture-holders ; 
thaty  in  point  of  fiict,  they  ought  to  be  re- 
garded as  the  mortgagees  of  the  line,  and 
that  when  a  railway  company  is  unable  to 
pay  the  interest  on  its  debenture  debt,  or 
to  meet  the  claim  of  its  debenture*holders 
for  principal  and  interest,  that  they  ought 
to  have  the  right  to  foredese,  as  it  were, 
and  take  the  line  into  their  own  hands. 
Now,  looking  to  the  public  interest,  I 
do  not  think  any  such  arrangement  can 
be  sanctioned.  The  question  of  whether 
debenture-holders  do  or  do  not  possess 
the  righte  of  mortgagees  over  a  railway 
is  a  question  which  has  been  more  or 
less  debated,  and  was  up  to  a  certain 
time  doubtful ;  but  the  recent  dedsion  of 
Lord  Justice  Cairns,  about  ten  days  ago, 
has  determined  that  debenture-hdders  are 
not  in  the  pontion  of  mortgagees,  that 
they  have  no  power  to  take  precedence  of 
other  creditors  or  to  foredose  upon  the 
land  and  take  the  whole  concern.  There- 
fore, I  do  not  think  that  the  dum  of  the 
debenture>holders  has  been  esteblished  to 
such  a  point  as  to  render  it  incumbent  on 
Parliament,  in  making  arrangemente  for 
the  affairs  of  embarrassed  companies,  to 
treat  theirs  as  the  one  great  interest  to  be 
considered  to  the  exclusion  of  all  others, 
and  to  give  them,  as  a  matter  of  right, 
at  whatever  cost  of  public  convenience, 
the  management  of  concerns  of  such  mag- 
nitude. We  are  not  to  look  upon  the 
question  as  a  case  in  which  the  deben- 
ture-holders }|i|ve  a  ri^ht  to  sei^e  tlie  line 

i5        Smhmiijf  CmpouM 


Arrm^$wimh  BiU. 


irbeii  it  does  not  pty ;  but  we  axe  free  to 
look  upon  it  from  the  pablio  point  of 
yiewy  and  eomdder  what  arrangements 
will  'be  meet  expedient  for  the  pablio 
interest.  We  musty  in  the  first  instanQe* 
regard  these  oonoems,  whioh  have  been 
sanotioned  by  Parliament  for  publio  pur- 
poses, as  a  whole,  and  look  to  the  pablio 
interest  first ;  and  then  we  must  endea- 
Tour  to  deal  with  the  different  elasses  en- 
gaged in  the  undertaking,  in  one  shape 
or  another,  with  reference  to  the  rights  of 
those  parties.  Those  rights  are  so  impor- 
tant  that  it  is  desirable  that  they  should 
be  asoertained  by  proper  tribunals ;  and  in 
any  arrangement  we  make  we  should  give 
due  weight  to  them.  But  looking  at  this 
as  a  matter  of  public  interest,  when  we 
see  a  ooQcem  whioh  cannot  be  carried  on  as 
we  expected  it  should  be  when  we  sano- 
tioned it,  we  have  a  right  to  see  how  the 
management  of  the  Une  can  be  so  re- 
arranged that  the  undertaking  can  be  car- 
ried on  in  a  proper  manner.  Now,  one 
can  hardly  oonoeiTe  a  more  unsatisfactory 
way  of  carrying  on  a  line  than  by  putting 
it  into  the  Imods  of  a  body  of  debenture- 
holders.  They  confessedly  are  a  class  who 
are  not  qualified  for  the  management  of 
commercial  transactions.  I  do  not  speak 
of  every  debenture-holder,  but  of  the 
body.  They  *e  a  class  of  men,  and  not 
unf^uently  women,  who  do  not  desire  to 
undertake  the  responsibility  of  the  manage- 
ment of  a  great  undertaking,  who  will  not 
be  well  qualified  to  elect  Directors,  or  to 
keep  them  in  check  by  attending  meet- 
ings ;  but  who,  having  money  to  in- 
vest, desire  to  lend  it  on  what  they  be- 
lieve to  be  good  security.  Now  if  you 
suddenly  throw  on  a  Glass  of  persons  like 
this  the  management  of  the  raUway  which 
others  much  better  qualified  had  been  un- 
able to  manage  sucoessfblly,  yon  are  more 
likely  to  odd  to  the  inefficiency  of  the  con- 
duct of  the  Une  than  to  restore  it  to  effi- 
ciency. I  therefore  set  aside  aU  question 
of  allowing  the  debenture-hoMers  to  take 
the  management  themselves.  Then  there 
is  another  proposal.  Supposing  ttie  case 
that  the  debenture-holders  are  allowed  to 

a  in  and  take  the  management  and  con- 
it  is  thought  b  V  some  that  they  should 
not  be  allowed  to  uo  so  uncontroued,  but 
that  the  Government  should  assist  them 
in  the  management  Two  proposals  have 
been  made  with  regard  to  the  action  of  the 
Government  in  the  matter,  and  I  desire  to 
say  a  few  words  upon  this  point,  because 
rumours,  as  if  from  authontyi  have  got 

Sir  SUffird  HfurOmU 

afloat  pointing  to  courses  which  the  Oo- 
yemment  would  never  think  of  foUowing. 
One  of  these  suggestions  is  Uiat  the  Go- 
vernment should  come  forward,  leaving  all 
other  matters  exactly  as  they  are,  and 
take  the  debentures  of  involved  railwa3r8 
on  itself,  that  it  should  undertake  to  pay 
off  the  debenture-holders  and  beoome  cre- 
ditors of  the  companies  in  their  place. 
As  to  such  a  proposal,  or  anything  in  that 
nature,  I  venture  to  say  it  is  one  that  Par- 
liament could  not  contemplate  for  a  mo- 
ment. I  do  not  elaborate  this  point  as  it 
has  been  elaborated  in  the  publio  press 
and  elsewhere;  but  it  seems  to  me  that  the 
result  of  all  such  propositions  is  that  the 
Government  is  to  constitute  itself  into  a 
great  Finance  Company,  to  undertake  on 
the  strength  of  its  credit  to  come  forward 
and  help  those  whose  credit  is  not  so  good 
as  their  own ;  and  it  is  said  that  the  Go- 
vernment being  able  probably  to  borrow 
at  the  rate  of  3}  per  cent  for  the  purpose 
of  lending  at  5  or  6  per  cent,  might  real- 
ize a  large  profit.  Against  all  such  pro- 
posals I  venture  to  enter  my  protest  I 
am  satisfied  that  it  would  be  an  unwise 
and  improvident  thing  on  the  part  of  the 
State  to  lend  itself  to  any  operation  of 
that  kind.  We  have  got  enough  to  do 
with  the  management  of  our  own  Debt, 
without  undertaking  to  add  lai^y  to  it 
by  paying  off  the  debts  of  other  persons 
with  a  view  to  reap  the  benefit  of  such 
profit  as  may  be  represented  by  the 
difference  of  the  credit  of  the  rulway 
companies  and  that  of  the  State.  A  pro- 
posid  a  little  less  objectionable  would  be 
for  the  Government  to  take  all  the  deben- 
tures of  all  the  companies,  and  not  only 
those  of  the  bad  ones.  This  would  be 
rather  better  than  that  it  should  take  up 
the  bad  bargains  only.  But  I  tiiink  this 
also  is  out  of  the  question.  Then  there  is 
a  proposal  of  a  much  larger  character- 
that  tne  Government  should  not  only  un- 
dertake the  debenture  debt,  but  also  take 
the  railways  themselves;  and  for  this 
undoubtedly  there  is  more  to  be  said— 
because,  to  take  the  debenture  debt  with- 
out the  railways  would  be  to  take  an 
obligation  on  ourselves  without  taking 
power  to  interfere  with  the  management 
of  the  railways,  and  we  should  so  run 
great  risks  without  the  power  of  protect- 
ing ourselves ;  but  to  take  tiie  railways 
themselves  would  be  a  different  matter, 
beoanse  we  should  have  the  oontrol,  and 
might  be  able  to  oonduot  them  with 
profit.     But  this  is  not  the  moment  to 

07       Sinkffas  ComptmiM         (Fsbhttaet  7, 1867 J       Arrang$mmh  BtV.        ^98 

eonrider  thai  qnestioii  —  it  is  before  the 
Boyal  Commifision  on  Eailwajs,  and  what- 
ever their  Beport  may  be  —  of  which  I 
am  quite  ignorant — ^it  will  receive  dne 
attention.  I  must  however  say,  that  if 
it  should  point  to  any  such  conclusion  as 
that  we  should  take  the '  railways,  that 
matter  would  require  the  most  serious  and 
careful  consideration  before  it  could  be 
even  entertained.  I  do  not  say  for  a 
moment  it  should  be  entertained;  but 
I  wish  to  distinguish  it  from  the  mere 
taking  the  debentures,  which  would  cer- 
tainly be  most  objectionable.  Setting 
this  aside,  and  setting  aside  any  pro- 
posal in  the  nature  of  working  a  line 
by  Government  interference,  I  ask,  how 
are  we  to  deal  with  the  difficulty  we  have 
to  meet?  I  have  endeavoured  to  show, 
in  the  first  place,  that  in  the  interest  of 
the  public,  some  means  should  be  found  of 
transferring  railways  from  insolvent  to 
solvent  management ;  that  this  cannot  be 
done  solely  by  the  intervention  of  the 
Court  of  Chancery;  that  the  necessary 
provisions  cannot  be  made  by  any  genertd 
Act  of  Parliament ;  and  I  have  indicated 
that  it  is  not  desirable  for  tho  State  to  take 
•the  railways  or  their  debts  on  itself.  I  have 
also  endeavoured  to  show  that  Parliament 
would  not  be  disposed  to  allow  the  ar- 
rangements of  our  railway  companies  to 
go  entirely  out  of  its  control.  Therefore, 
as  provision  cannot  be  made  by  a  general 
Act.  there  must  be  a  special  Act  of  Par- 
liament in  each  individual  case,  framed 
according  to  the  circumstances.  Hon. 
Members  will  perhaps  say  that  the  end 
of  all  this  long  statement  is»  that  things 
are  to  go  on  as  they  are — that  at  present 
Private  Bills  are  to  be  introduced  to  meet 
each  case  as  it  arises.  That  is  not  exactly 
our  proposal.  The  difficulty  of  proceeding 
by  Private  Bills  on  the  present  footing  is 
that  a  Private  Bill  can  only  be  promoted, 
or  only  is  promoted,  by  the  company  itself; 
and  were  is  no  means  of  compelling  a 
company  that  is  unwilling  to  do  so  to  wind 
up  its  affairs.  Moreover,  in  the  case  of  Pri- 
vate Bills  only  certain  persons  have  such  an 
interest  as  gives  them  a  loom  standi  before 
the  Committee,  and  the  interest  which  the 
general  public  has,  although  very  great, 
would  hardly  entitle  it  to  be  represented. 
Then  in  Private  Bill  legislation  we  have 
much  uncertainty '  to  deal  with,  because 
the  decisions  of  the  Committees  in  one 
Sessioo  are  often  overruled  by  those  who 
succeed  them  in  the  next,  and  there 
is  the  possibility  of  flie  rules  laid  down 

by  one  House  of  Parliament  being  dis- 
regarded by  the  other.  All  these  diffi- 
culties have  induced  Her  Majesty's  Go- 
vernment to  try  if  we  cannot  find  a 
better  mode  of  dealing  with  these  ques- 
tions. I  think  there  may  be.  I  think  that 
by  calling  in  the  aid  of  the  Executive 
Government  for  certain  purposes  you  may 
provide  a  better  mode  of  meeting  these 
cases.  We  propose,  then,  that  the  Executive 
Government — through  that  Department  of 
it  which  is  more  particularly  concerned, 
the  Board  of  Trade — should,  in  the  first 
instance,  prepare  the  schemes  which  shall 
be  laid  before  Parliament  in  the  form  of 
Bills,  and  should  take  charge  of  them  as 
Public  Bills,  and  carry  them  through  Par- 
liament. The  proposal  is  that  when  a 
company  is  in  a  state  of  financial  embar- 
rassment, when  it  is  unable  to  pay  the 
interest  or  principal  of  its  debentures, 
when  there  is  an  execution  issued  against 
it  and  thjsre  are  no  funds  to  satisfy  the  de- 
mands of  its  creditors,  or  when  the  traffic 
is  suspended  and  it  is  not  able  to  carry  on 
its  business — contingencira  which  are  fully 
set  forth  in  the  BUI — it  shall  be  lawful 
for  a  certain  number  of  the  creditors  or 
shareholders  of  the  company  to  present 
a  petition  to  the  Board  of  Trade  praying 
that  the  Board  will  order  an  investigation 
into  the  circumstances  of  the  company. 
On  that  a  communication  will  be  made  to 
the  Directors  of  the  company,  and  a  certain 
limited  time  allowed  them  in  which  to 
offer  objections  to  that  course  of  proceed- 
ing; after  which  the  Board  of  Trade,  if 
satisfied  that  there  is  a  primdfaeie  case  for 
inquiry,  will  appoint  one  or  more  inspectors. 
These  are  to  be  persons  competent  from 
their  financial  and  legal  ability  to  investi- 
gate the  whole  position  of  the  company, 
and  will  be  armed  with  the  power  to  cidl 
witnesses  and  collect  evidence,  so  as  to 
effect  a  complete  and  satisfactory  investi- 
gation. They  will  then  prepare  a  scheme 
for  the  settlement  of  tho  company's  affairs, 
for  which  the  Board  of  Trade  will  make 
itself  responsible,  and  which  it  will  intro- 
duce into  Parliament.  Next  comes  the 
question  how  the  Bill  shall  be  dealt  with 
by  the  Legislature ;  and  it  being  one  great 
object  of  Uie  plan  to  insure  as  fu:  as  possi- 
ble uniformity  of  decision  and  a  reduction 
of  expense,  it  is  proposed  that  instead  of 
such  a  Bill  being  separately  considered  by 
Committees  of  each  House  of  Parliament, 
it  shall  be  introduced  simultaneously  into 
both  Houses,  and  that  after  passing  a  se- 
oond  reading  in  each  it  abaUi  m  the  eveut 


ftd         Sailtcay  Companieif  fCOMIIONS)  ArrmqmeniB  Bitt.  100 

of  opposition  from  interested  parties,  be 
referred  to  a  Joint  Coromitteo*  appointed 
by  the  two  Houses,  under  Standing  Orders 
to  be  framed  for  that  purpose.  That  Com- 
mittee Trill  deal  with  it  in  the  same  way 
that  Private  Bills  are  now  dealt  with,  and 
the  Bill  being  introduced  by  the  President 
of  the  Board  of  Trade,  will  be  carried 
through  by  him  upon  public  grounds  — 
BO  that  he  will  be  interested  in  raising 
questions  before  the  Committee  which  the 
promoters  or  opponents  of  Private  Bills 
are  not  necessarily  interested  in  consider- 
ing. A  means  will  thus  bo  provided  for 
dealing  with  each  special  case  upon  its  own 
particular  circumstances,  through  a  careful 
examination  of  its  merits  by  persons  who, 
selected  in  the  first  instance  for  their  com- 
petency, will,  in  process  of  time,  acquire 
a  great  deal  of  experience,  and  who  will 
not  be  hampered  by  formal  rules  of  evi- 
dence from  obtaining  information  in  the 
freest  possible  manner.  With  regard  to 
the  Joint  Committee,  I  venture,  though 
with  some  diffidence,  to  suggest  that  the 
Standing  Orders  should  secure  its  appoint- 
ment upon  a  very  careful  footing,  and  that 
the  two  Houses  should  be  empowered,  if 
they  think  fit,  to  associate  with  tho  Com- 
mittee some  of  the  Iteferees  to  whom  Pri- 
vate Bills  were  now  referred.  This,  how- 
ever, is  a  matter  of  detuil,  and  is  not 
essential  to  the  scheme,  that  which  is 
essential  being  a  joint  inquiry  by  both 
Houses,  with  a  view  to  avoid  expense  and 
uncertainty.  I  think  Parliament  may  be 
satisfied  with  this — and,  indeed,  I  am  in- 
clined to  think  that  it  would  be  a  great 
improvement  on  the  mode  of  conducting 
Private  Business  were  the  principle  of  Joint 
Committees  carried  still  farther.  I  do  not 
wish,  however,  to  travel  beyond  the  limits 
of  the  present  measure,  and  therefore  only 
suggest  that  course  as  advisable  in  the  case 
with  which  we  now  have  to  deal.  In  the 
event  of  the  inspectors  finding  that  the 
requisite  an'angrment  is  within  the  terms 
of  an  existing  Act  of  Parliament,  there  is 
a  clause  providing  that  they  may,  with  the 
assent  of  three-fifths  of  the  shareholders, 
debenture- holders,  and  other  persons  inte- 
rested, prepare  a  scheme  and  submit  it  to 
Her  Mnjesty  for  confirmation  by  an  Order 
in  Council.  I  have  now  stated  the  leading 
features  of  the  Bill,  which  will  be  in  the 
hands  of  hon.  Members  in  a  day  or  two, 
and  I  trust  that  at  no  distant  period  it 
may  be  considered  by  the  House,  tho  Com- 
mittee upon  it  being  deferred,  if  thought 
desirable^  for  a  longer  time  than  usual,  in  i 

Sir  Stafford  NorihfiUe  ' 

order  that  the  details  of  the  scheme  may 
be  fiilly  examined.  I  hope  that  the  pro* 
posal  will  be  found  to  obviate  some  of  the 
difficulties  now  experienced  owing  to  the 
present  state  of  tlie  law,  which  renders 
companies,  practically  insolvent,  unable  to 
come  to  any  arrangement,  and  drives  them 
to  seek  reuef  in  all  directions,  each  class 
standing  upon  its  exclusive  rights,  and  tlie 
assets  being  wasted  in  internal  disputes.  £ 
believe  that  the  plan  which  I  have  sketched 
out  will  not  only  provide  a  simple  and 
effective  method  of  dealing  with  these  difil- 
culties  as  they  arise,  but  will,  to  some 
extent,  prevent  their  occurrence,  because 
the  knowledge  that  the  intervention  of  the 
Board  of  Trade  may  be  invoked  will  act 
as  a  check  upon  Directors,  and  also  as  an. 
encouragement  to  shareholders  to  take  an 
interest  in  the  arrangement.  Vexatious 
and  frequent  appeals  are,  of  oonrse,  to  bo 
deprecated.  This  is  the  proposal  of  Her 
Majesty's  Government,  which  I  now  ask 
leave  to  present  in  the  shape  of  a  Bill. 

Moved f  "  That  leave  be  given  to  bring 
in  a  Bill  to  make  better  provision  for  the 
arrangement  of  the  affairs  of  Bailway 
Companies  unable  to  meet  their  engage- 
ments."—(iSVr  Stafford  JfbrtheoU.) 

Kb.  WATKIN  said,  he  did  not  intend 
to  oppose  the  introduction  of  the  measure, 
but  he  should  have  desired  to  have  the 
Bill   before  them,  because   it   was  very 
difficult  to  judge  of  its  operation  by  the 
essay  they  had  just  heard  from  the  right 
hon.  Baronet.     He  submitted,  however, 
that  though  there  was  a  case  for  legisla- 
tion of  some  kind,  the  right  hon.  Baronet 
had  not  made  out  a  case  for  the  introduo- 
tion  of  the  measure  which  he  proposed. 
The  right  hon.  Gentleman  had  stuted  that 
Parliament  ought  not  to  interfere  with  the 
concerns  of  these  joint-stock  companies 
except  in  the  interest  of  the  public,  and 
that  interest,  his  argument  led  them  to 
infer,  consisted  in  the  facility  and  safety  of 
locomotion;   but  he  had  not  adduced  a 
single  case   in  which  even  the  unsound 
companies  had  failed  to  carry  on  the  traffic. 
He  therefore  ventured  to  think  that  the 
matter  might   be  left  to  the   ordinary 
common   sense  and   self-interest  of  the 
persons  interested  in  these  concerns,  and 
that  there  was  no  need  of  the  interven- 
tion of  Parliament  by  general  measures. 
The  cases  were   exceptional,  and  called 
for  exceptional  legislation,  each  case  upon 
its  own  merits.    General  legislation  was 
not  needed,  and  to  propose  it  would 

101       Saikoay  CompanM       (Fbb£ttabt  7^  1867)       JrrangmenU  Bill.       102 

create  doubt  and  distnut,  and  needlessly 
damage  the  credit  of  sound  companies 
trhich,  under  general  measures,  would  be 
classed  with  the  unsound.  The  right  hon. 
Baronet  promised,  at  the  close  of  last 
Session,  to  lay  before  the  House  an  ex- 
planation of  the  financial  collapse  of  last 
spring.  Now,  it  was  admitted  that  one 
cause  of  the  suffering  then  experienced 
was  the  sanction  given  by  Parliament 
during  the  last  three  or  four  years  to  vari- 
ous wasteful  schemes  for  the  expenditure 
of  the  national  capital.  Those  unsound 
undertakings,  it  should  be  remembered, 
had  been  authorized  by  Parliament ;  and 
though,  no  doubt,  it  was  not  the  pro- 
vince of  the  Legislature  to  prevent  people 
from  throwing  away  their  money — ^thongh, 
no  doubt,  a  man  was  at  liberty  to  pull 
down  his  house  and  make  it  a  heap  of  rub- 
bish, or,  provided  he  did  not  insure  it,  to 
.scuttle  his  ship — Parliament  surely  ought 
not  to  facilitate  such  operations.  The 
expenditure  of  a  laige  amount  of  labour, 
and  the  consequent  wasting  of  the  national 
resources  in  unremunerative  schemes,  was 
a  loss  to  the  nation,  though  the  capital 
belonged  in  the  separate  sense  to  indivi- 
duals. £450,000,000  had  been  invested 
in  railways  in  the  XTnif ed  Kingdom ;  but 
the  total  amoant  of  capital  invested  in 
these  unsound  undertakings  —  the  first 
being  in  the  South  of  Ireland,  next  some 
in  Wales,  and  lastly  the  London,  Chatham, 
and  Dover — did  not  comprise  more  than  a 
tithe  of  that  total.  By  these  failures 
the  public  had  not  been  so  far  damaged ; 
and  he  (Mr.  Watkin)  Eaid  that  Parliament 
should  leave  to  the  promoters  of  the  un- 
dertakings themselves  to  present  schemes 
for  managing  their  own  offairs,  in  their 
own  way,  according  to  the  dictates  of 
their  own  common  sense.  He  (Mr.  Wat- 
kin)  feared  that  if  this  Bill  were  carried 
it  would  be  the  beginning  of  a  departure 
from  the  useful  principle  that  the  persons 
who  went  into  these  undertakings  ought 
to  be  allowed  to  manage  their  own  affairs. 
It  would  probably  be  found  that  the  ina- 
nagcment  of  tho  Board  of  Trade  would 
not  be  so  good  as  that  of  the  worst  ma- 
naged of  ^ese  railways.  He  feared  that 
the  Bill  of  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  would 
only  create  a  false  security  in  the  creditors 
and  debenture-holders.  Instead  of  each 
man  inquiring  for  and  relying  upon  him- 
self, he  would  be  looking  on  the  Board  of 
Trade  as  an  emblem  of  safety,  and  relying 
on  it  as  a  surety  against  loss.  The  pith 
of  th^  whole  ^uestioi  was  to  be  found  in 

this — what  was  at  the  moment  required 
was  not  the  interference  of  the  Board 
of  Trade,  but  merely  a  short  provision 
in  a  general  Act  of  Parliament  for  the 
inviolability  and  perfect  security  of  rail- 
way debentures— the  keystone  of  that 
railway  system  which,  with  all  its  short- 
comings, had  done  so  much  for  the  well- 
being  and  prosperity  of  the  country.  What 
was  the  present  position  of  the  question  ? 
The  right  hon.  Gentleman  said  that  a  re- 
cent legal  decision  had  rendered  it  doubtful 
whether  a  debenture  was  a  mortgage, 
whether  a  debenture-holder  had  a  right 
to  sell ;  and  then  the  right  hon.  Gentleman 
enunciated  a  most  dangerous  principle  in 
stating  that  the  railway  mortgogee  ought 
not  to  be  allowed  to  sell  the  security  on 
which  his  money  had  been  advanced. 
Such  a  principle  would  sap  the  foundation 
of  the  whole  mortgage  property  of  the 
country,  and  the  feeling  of  doubt  and  in- 
security created  would  raise  the  rate  of 
interest  upon  all  mortgages.  There  never 
was  a  more  dangerous  principle  laid  down 
by  a  Minister  in  this  country  than  to  say 
that  the  mortgagee  should  not  be  able  to 
sell  the  security  on  which  his  money  had 
been  obtained  in  his  mortgage.  In  Transat- 
lantic countries  the  railway  debenture  was 
a  mortgage,  not  on  the  tolls  only,  but  on 
the  engines,  plant,  and  the  whole  property 
of  the  undertaking.  What  was  wanted 
was  to  make  a  railway  debenture  really  a 
mortgoge.  If  that  were  done,  he  believed 
there  would  be  found  in  the  most  rotten 
of  these  concerns  a  core  of  soundness  which 
would  pull  the  enterprize  at  last  through 
in  the  interest  of  the  public.  A  very  short, 
simple  measure  to  make  the  debenture 
inviolable  would  be  safe  and  useful.  The 
Bill  of  the  Government  would  be  useless 
and  mischievous. 

Mb.  MILNBR  GIBSON  said,  he  would 
be  sorry  to  give  any  off-hand  opinion  on 
the  scheme  of  the  right  hon.  Gentleman, 
which  was  somewhat  complicated,  and 
must  contain  many  details  which  they 
could  not  usefully  discuss  until  they  had 
the  Bill  before  them.  But  he  had  heard 
with  great  pleasure  that  one  part  of  his 
p]!tn  was  to  refer  any  Railway  winding- 
up  Bill,  brought  in  as  proposed  under 
the  auspices  of  the  Board  of  Trade,  to 
a  Joint  Committee  of  both  Houses  of 
Parliament.  They  had  a  Joint  Commit- 
tee two  or  three  Sessions  ago  on  Metro- 
politan Railways,  and  their  experience 
on  that  occasion  justified  Parliament  in 
carrying   the   prinoiple    of  these  Com^ 

103         SM^a^Cmpam$e         (OOMUONS) 

AmmgimenU  BiU^         104 

xnitieeB  still  farther.  The  double  inquiry 
had  been  a  source  of  constant  com- 
plaint, and  it  had  been  felt  that  the  evi- 
dence on  Bailway  Bills  nught  be  given 
once  for  both  Houses,  and  that  one  inquiry 
would  serve  all  the  purposes  of  legislation. 
The  Committee  on  Private  Bill  Legislation, 
which  sat  two  or  three  years  ago,  were 
of  opinion  that  this  system  of  Joint  Com- 
mittees might  be  adopted  generally  for  all 
cases  of  BaUway  and  Private  Bills.  Perhaps 
that  would  be  going  too  far  at  present; 
but,  at  any  rate,  he  was  glad  to  find  that 
the  right  hon.  Gentleman  proposed  to 
carry  the  principle  a  step  further.  With 
regfu^  to  the  scheme  itself,  what  struck 
his  mind  most  was  that  the  Board  of 
Trade  would  be  called  upon  to  exercise 
most  important  judicial  functions.  Under 
the  proposed  scheme  creditors  might  come 
forward  and  petition  the  Board  of  Trade 
that  a  certain  company  should  be  wound 
up.  The  Board  of  Trade  would  of  course 
hear  the  parties  who  objected  to  the  com- 
pany being  wound  up  and  made  bankrupt 
That  was  a  most  important  function  to  be 
committed  to  a  public  Department;  but  it 
appeared  more  difficult  still  when  they 
considered  that  the  Board  would  have  to 
decide  upon  the  equitable  rights  of  the 
debenture-holders,  the  preference  stock 
holders,  and  the  ordinary  creditors.  These 
were  judicial  operations  well  suited  for 
the  Court  of  Chancery;  but  unless  per- 
formed under  very  competent  and  proper 
advice,  they  wore  not  suited  to  a  Depart- 
ment Uke  me  Board  of  Trade.  He  would 
not,  however,  speak  unfavourably  of  any 
part  of  the  scheme  until  he  knew  more  of 
It;  but  he  could  not  sit  down  wiUiout 
saying  that  he  thought  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  had  undertaken  a  most  useful 
task  in  endeavouring,  so  &r  as  he  could, 
to  enable  persons  to  get  out  of  their  un- 
fortunate difficulties  in  connection  with 
railways.  He  certamly  agreed  that  the 
public  had  a  primary  interest  beyond  all 
other  interests,  and  it  was  tiiat  of  enabling 
the  railway  communications  of  the  coun- 
try to  be  kept  open.  The  public  interest 
was,  in  fact,  that  the  traffic  in  passengers 
and  goods  should  be  carried  on  with  safety 
and  punctuality ;  but  the  pubUo  had  no 
direct  interest  in  the  question  whether 
debenture-holders  got  their  fuU  interest 
or  shareholders  their  dividendsy  though 
Parliament  was  bound  to  provide  a  mode 
by  which  all  claims  on  a  railway  company 
can  be  equitably  arranged,  and,  at  the  same 
time,  securuig  that  the  railways  tbemselTes 

should  not  be  liable  to  be  stopped  in  their 
use  to  the  public.  Debentures  and  shares 
were  matters  of  speculation  on  the  part 
of  debenture-holders  when  they  lent  their 
money,  and  of  shareholders  when  they 
embarked  their  capital ;  but,  undoubtedly, 
he  agreed  with  the  right  hon.  Gentieman 
that  the  Government  and  the  public  had 
a  direct  interest  in  seeing  that  railways, 
which  had  become  the  high  roads  of  the 
country,  should  be  kept  open,  and  that 
the  traffic  upon  them  should  be  conducted 
with  safety  and  regularity. 

Sib  BOUNDELL  palmer  said,  he 
quite  agreed  with  his  right  hon.  Friend 
(Mr.  Hihier  Gibson)  that  it  was  premature 
to  express  an  opinion  on  the  measure  it- 
self; but  he  could  not  think  it  premature 
to  express  an  opinion  with  respect  to  the 
principle  upon  which  it  was  said  to  be 
based.  Having  a  most  acute  sense  of  the 
extreme  importance  and  urgency  of  the 
question,  he  had  heard  the  statement  of 
the  President  of  the  Board  of  Trade  with 
feelings  of  the  most  profound  disappoint- 
ment. The  measure  appeared  to  mm  to 
be  necessarily  inadequate  to  deal  with  the 
real  evil,  and  based  upon  principles  wholly 
insufficient  to  meet  the  actual  difficulties 
of  the  case.  It  was  very  true  that  the 
public  had  an  important  interest  in  the 
maintenance  of  these  great  lines  of  com- 
munication ;  but  he  could  not  but  express 
his  entire  dissent  from  the  view — if  it 
were  the  view — of  the  right  hon.  Gentle* 
man  that  Parliament  had  no  duty  to  dia- 
chai^e  with  regard  to  the  private  interests, 
especially  of  the  creditors,  of  these  great 
concerns.  [Sir  Stafford  Kobthoote  was 
understood  to  intimate  his  dissent.]  He 
did  not  imagine  that  the  right  hon.  Gen- 
tieman had  said  so ;  but,  at  all  events,  the 
Bill  did  not  take  that  broad  and  general 
view  of  the  rights  of  creditors  and  the  proper 
mode  of  providing  for  their  payment  which 
seemed  to  be  imperatively  required,  and 
which  could  not  possibly  be  provided  for 
by  this  sort  of  special  piecemeal  legisla- 
tion through  the  Board  of  Trade  and  both 
Houses  of  Parliament  in  each  particular 
case.  There  should  be  a  general  law  se- 
curing to  the  creditors  of  a  railway  and 
all  other  companies  the  payment  of  their 
debts  to  the  extent  of  the  means  of  the 
company  on  settied  principles  to  be  ad- 
ministered by  the  Courts  of  Law.  He  did 
say  that  the  state  of  things  lately  disclosed 
in  that  respect  was  scandalous.  He  could 
not  agree  with  the  right  hon.  Gentieman 
that,  under  tho  eating  Acts  of  parliaments 

105       BMio0ff  Ompanie^       (FsBBtriiiT  Y|  1867)       AmmgmmU  Sitt.       106 

railway  companies,  either  by  r^fiatering 
themselYea  or  otherwiBe,  could  be  wound 
up.  This,  however,  was  quite  certain— 
that  judgment  creditors  might  pull  to 
pieces  by  private  and  separate  executions 
all  that  was  absolutely  necessary  to  enable 
the  company  to  go  on — because  no  tolls 
could  be  earned,  no  profits  could  be  de- 
rived, and  the  public  trafiSc  could  not  be 
provided  for  without  the  rolling  stock. 
At  the  present  moment,  if  a  company  were 
insolvent,  each  individual  judgment  cre- 
ditor, going  for  his  own  separate  interest, 
might  pull  to  pieces  the'^plant  and  rolling 
stock  of  the  concern.  That  was  an  im- 
minent practical  danger ;  and  then  what 
would  happen?  In  all  other  cases  of 
winding-up  or  bankmptcy,  the  available 
assets  were  distributed  rateably  among  the 
creditors — but  no  such  machinery  was  ap- 
plicable to  this  particular  case ;  and  with 
regard  to  the  unfortunate  debentare-hold- 
ers,  whom  Parliament  had  certainly  led  to 
suppose  that  they  had  got  security  under 
Acts  of  the  Legidature,  it  had  been  lately 
determined — and,  no  doubt,  correctly  — 
that  they  had  no  mortgage  on  the  perma- 
nent way  or  on  the  rolUng  stock ;  that 
they  had  no  power,  and  that  nobody  had 
power,  to  supersede  the  management  of 
the  company;  and  that  their  sole  right, 
if  there  were  profits,  was  to  get  their  in- 
terest paid  out  of  those  profits.  But  un- 
less a  railway  could  be  carried  on,  and 
the  general  interests  of  the  creditors  were 
provided  for  by  an  administration  for  their 
common  benefit^  in  the  special  case  of  in- 
solvency which  the  Bill  proposed  to  deal  / 
with,  it  was  utterly  impossible  there  could  | 
be  any  profits  whatever;  and  the  enor- 
mous amount  of  property  involved  in  rail- 
way debentures  in  the  kingdom  would  be 
exposed  to  daily  and  hourly  risk.  Let 
him  suppose  that  the  procedure  proposed 
by  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  opposite  was 
adopted,  that  a  company  was  in  this  state, 
and  that  people  went  to  the  Board  of 
Trade  to  settle  a  scheme.  As  his  right 
hon.  Friend  (Mr.  Milner  Gibson)  had  justly 
said,  if  the  Board  of  Trade  was  to  settle  a 
scheme  for  the  re-constitution  of  a  company, 
BO  as  to  provide  for  the  different  rights 
of  the  difierent  classes  of  creditors,  ho  did 
not  see  how  it  could  possibly  do  that  ex- 
cept by,  the  exercise  of  judicial  functions. 
Take  the  case  of  the  unfortunate  com- 
pany, the  state  of  whose  afiuirs  had  led  to 
these  questions— -the  London,  Chatham,  and 
Dover  Company.  That  Company  had,  by 
their  legislation — ^they  must  never  forget 

that— been  cut  up  into  a  great  number  of 
sections,  and  parcelled  out  among  di£ferent 
classes  of  creditors  and  persons  who  had 
been  induced  to  lend  their  money.  It 
was  in  utter  confusion.  Was  the  Board 
of  Trade  to  disentangle  that  mass  of  com- 
plication and  confusion ;  or,  if  not  to  dis- 
entangle it,  could  it  propose  new  legisla- 
tion with  due  security  for  the  proper 
maintenance  of  the  rights  of  all  those 
various  classes  of  creditors?  It  seemed 
to  him  to  be  totally  impossible  for  the 
Board  of  Trade  to  do  that.  Judicial  ma- 
chinery was  absolutely  necessary  for  the 
purpose ;  and  the  present  judicial  machi- 
nery was  confessedly  inadequate  to  ac- 
complish it.  He  ventured  to  think,  if  he 
understood  the  right  hon.  Baronet's  expla- 
nation, that  his  proposal  in  that  respect 
would  be  a  most  inexpedient  one;  for, 
whatever  else  might  be  desirable,  they 
wanted  a  Bill  that  should  give  to  the 
Courts  of  Justice  that  large  and  compre* 
hensive  power  of  doing  justice  to  all  the 
creditors  of  these  companies  in  case  of  in- 
solvency, which  the  Court  of  Chancery 
and  Court  of  Bankruptcy  had  in  regard  to 
any  other  joint-stock  company. 

ply, said,  he  had  to  apologize  to  the  House, 
and  confess  that  when  he  undertook  to 
bring  in  this  Bill  he  had  some  doubts  as 
to  his  own  power  of  fully  explaining  its 
nature.  He  agreed  in  the  remark  which 
had  been  made  by  the  hon.  and  learned 
Gentleman  the  Member  for  Richmond, 
that  there  were  disadvantages  in  discuss- 
ing Bills  before  they  were  in  the  hands 
of  Members,  because  the  only  impression 
which  the  House  could  possibly  derive  of 
their  provisions  ifiust  be  gathered  from  the 
explanation — often  a  very  imperfect  one — 
of  the  Member  bringing  them  in,  who, 
being  naturally  hampered  by  his  desire  not 
to  ti^paas  too  long  on  the  time  of  the 
House,  sometimes  omitted  points  which 
ought  to  be  mentioned.  If,  however,  the 
hon.  and  learned  Gentleman  (Sir  Roundell 
Palmer)  had  had  the  Bill  in  his  hands  he 
would  have  seen  that  it  was  not  quite 
open  to  the  objections  which,  upon  the 
imperfect  stotement  he  had  given  of  its 
provisions,  might  fairly  be  taken  to  it.  He 
quite  admitted  thai  it  would  be  extremely 
difficult  for  the  Board  of  Trade  to  exercise 
the  functions  which  the  Bill  proposed  to 
Test  in  it.  There  would,  no  doubt,  be 
many  judicial  questions  raised  which  thei 
Board  of  Trade  would  not  be  competent  to 
settle  for  itself.    But  it  was  intended  to 


Shipping  Le^^ 




insert  in  the   measure  a  clause   giTing 
power  to  the  inspectors  of  the  Board  of 
Trade  to  refer  questions  of  a  delicate  legal 
character  to  the  Courts  of  Law,  to  he  de- 
cided hy  an  issue  which  would  he  properly 
tried  with  regard  to  the  rights  of  parti- 
cular classes   of  creditors.     That  was  a 
point  on  which  he  felt  himself  incompetent 
to  speak,  hecause  it  was  one  of  a  technical 
nature  ;   hut  he  had  drawn  the  attention 
of  the  gentleman  who  had  charge  of  the 
framing  of  the  Bill  to  it,  and  desired  him 
to  prepare  a  clause,  or  clauses,  to  meet 
that  difficulty,  and  enahle  judicial  deci- 
sions to  he  taken  in  those  oases  in  which 
they  might  be  absolutely  necessary.     He 
could  not,  of  course,  say  whether  these 
clauses  would  be  satisfactory.     He  would 
only  observe  that  the  point  was  one  which 
had  not  been  overlooked,  and  when  the 
hon.  and  leained  Member  had  the   Bill 
before  him,  it  would  be  seen  whether  the 
clauses  were  sufficient  for  the  purpose. 
The  hon.  and  learned  Gentleman  had  said, 
very  truly,  that  what  they  had  to  do  was 
to  protect  a  company  against  the  suspen- 
sion of  its  operations.     It  was  proposed  to 
introduce  a  clause  into  the  Bill  which 
would  prevent  the  seizure  of  the  rolling 
stock,  or  any  proceeding  that  would  in- 
terfere with  the  carrying  on  of  the  rail- 
way.    The  hon.  and  learned  Gentleman, 
having  graphically  described  the  state  of 
confusion  which  existed  in  the  case  of  the 
London,   Chatham,   and   Dover  Eailway 
Company,   asked  whether  the  Board  of 
Trade  would  find   its  way  through  all 
that  labyrinth?     Certainly,  he  was  not 
going  to  say  that  it  would  be  able  to  do 
that  or  absolutely  to  settle  all  those  ques- 
tions; but  it  would  he  a  great  improve- 
ment in  the  present  state  of  things,  when 
all  these  various  classes  of  persons  were 
fighting  together  and  wasting  their  time 
and  money  without  any  mediator  or  arbi- 
trator at  all  between  Uiem — ^it  would  be 
of  great  advantage  if  they  provided  an 
arbitrator  who  might  be  competent,  and 
whose  decision,  if  he  were  not  competent, 
would  not  be  final,  but  would  hare   to 
come  before  Parliament.     The  hon.  Mem- 
ber for  Stockport  (Mr.  Watkin)  said  all 
that  was  wanted  was  that  they  should 
protect  debentures.    He  did  not  think  that 
was  all  they  had  to  do  ;  but  he  would  not 
enter  into  that  controversy,  neither  would 
he  discuss  the  bearings  of  that  question 
.upon  the  commercial  distress  of  last  vear. 
He  would  only  ask  the  House  kindly  to 
allow  him  to  introduce  the  Bill,  and  to 
8i'r  Stafford  If  ortheaU 

suspend   its  judgment  upon  its  dctailB 
until  it  had  seen  them. 

Motion  a^sed  to. 

Bill  to  make  better  proTision  for  the  arrmnM- 
ment  of  tlio  afiaira  of  Railway  Companies  uuaole 
to  meet  their  engagements,  ordered  to  be  brought 
in  by  Sir  Stafford  NoRxnooTi,  Mr-  Cats,  and 
Mr.  AnoBirsT  Gbhsbal. 

BiWpreientedj  and  read  the  first  time.  [BUI  4.3 

COMUirrES.      BESOLTTTION.      first  BnADINO. 

.    Shipping  Local  Dues  eotmdered  in  Com* 

(In  the  Committee.) 

to  propose  that — 

**  The  Chairman  be  directed  to  moye  the  Hoase 
that  leaye  be  ^ren  to  bring  in  a  Bill  for  the  Abo- 
lition of  certain  Exemptions  from  Local  Does  on 
Shipping  and  on  Goods  carried  in  Ships." 

It  would,  he  said,  he  oonyenient  that  he 
should  defer,  as  far  as  possible,  any  discus- 
sion on  the  Bill  whioh  it  was  sought  to 
introduce  until  it  was  in  print;  but  he 
might  then  briefly  state  that  last  year  a 
law  was  passed  in  France,  admitting  fo* 
reign    ships   to  very  great    advantages, 
which  they  had  not  heretofore  enjoyed 
in  French  ports,  but  this  privilege  was 
limited  to  the  vessels  of  those  countries 
which  treated  French  ships  with  perfect 
reciprocity.  The  nature  of  the  new  Frendi 
law  was  this,  that  it  abolished  the  tonnage 
dues  which  weighed  heavily  on  ships  en- 
tering French  ports,  but  retained  power 
for  the  Emperor  to  re-impose  them  upon 
the   ships  of  countries   which  did   not 
"  grant  reciprocity  to  the  French  Mercan- 
tile Marine."    The  French  Government 
had  communicated  to  the  British  Oovem- 
ment  its  wish  that  the  boiefits  of  this  law 
might  be  shared  by  British  ships;  but 
stated,  that  for  this  purpose  it  was  neces- 
sary that  tho  Britirii  Government  should 
abolish  those  exemptions  from  local  dues 
in  respect  of  British  ships  which  were  still 
enjoyed  by  a  small  number  of  persons  in 
our  seaports.  These  exemptions  were  now 
very  limited,  and  of  infinitesimal  value ; 
and  it  had  always  been  contended  on  our 
side  that  they  were  not,  strictly  speaking, 
any  breach  of  reciprocity,  inasmuch  as  the 
dues  in  question  were  not  levied  on  Frenoh 
or  foreign  ships  in  particular,  but  also 
on  British  ships.    The  French,  however, 
argued  that  that  was  not  satisfactory  to 
them,  and  that,  in  point  of  fact,  an  Eng- 
lishman might  gain  an  exemption  fhiqEi 

109    n^MiiAthitiktlcn,  ^c.    iFxnvAiT  7,  1867}  Dnk^kn  AhUtion  Bill    110 

fooia  of  those  diie9»  whereat  a  Frenohman 
nerer  ooald.    In  that  state  of  the  cose,  it 
Has  thought  by  Her  Majesty's  Govem- 
meat  desiraUe  to  extinguish  the  reroain- 
iog  exemptions  of  that  character ;  and  the 
French  Government  had  very  liand$om«ly 
acoepted    Ihe   intimation   of  the  Govern- 
inent's  intention  to  submit  a  Bill  to  Par- 
liament; and   the  Emperor,  although  ho 
had  ro-imposcd  the  restrictions  upon  Ame- 
rican ships,  abstiiined  from  doing  so  with 
rrgard  to    British  ships,  until  he  ascer- 
tsHicd  whetlier  Parliament  would  pass  the 
proposed   Bill.     The  Bill  provided  that 
the  local  exemptions,  which  are  now  en- 
joyed by  Tory  few  persons,  should  be  abo- 
lished within   a  Ycry  limited  time,  and 
that  compensation  to  the  persons  who  en- 
joyed them  should  be  made — not,  of  course, 
oat  of  any  Imperial  or  public  funds,  but 
oat  of  those  funds  which   would   profit 
directly  by  their  abolition^  namely,  the 
fnnds  of  the  harbour  or  other  trusts  to 
vhich  the  dues  in  question  were  payable. 
The    right    hon.  Baronet   concluded  by 
SKiring  hia  Besolution. 

Motion  agreed  to, 

ReBot&ed,  That  the  ChAirman  bo  directed  to 
move  the  Home,  that  leave  be  giren  to  bring  in  a 
BUI  for  the  Abolition  of  certain  Exemptions  from 
Local  Does  on  Shipping  and  on  Goods  canicd  in 

Heaolution  reported:  —  Bill  ordered  to  bo 
breogfat  in  bj  Sir  Stafford  NoETncoTi,  Mr. 
Gatb,  and  Mr.  IIimT. 

BVlpr€9eMedt9jA  read  the  flrtt  time.  [Bill  5.] 


Transnbstantiation,     &c.     Declaration 
Abolition  eoneidered  in  Committee. 

(In  the  Committee.) 

Sn  COLMAN   O'LOGHLEN  rose  to 

**  That  the  Chairman  be  directed  to  more  the 
nevse,  that  leafe  be  given  to  bring  in  a  Bill  to 
aboiisb  a  certain  Declaration,  commonly  called  the 
Beelaration  againat  Transubstantiation,  Invoca- 
tiee  of  Saints,  and  tbo  Sacrifice  of  the  Ma8s  as 
praetiaed  in  the  Charch  of  Rome  ;  and  to  render 
it  vnneeesaarj  to  take,  make,  or  subscribe  the 
mta»  as  a  i|iialiaeation  lor  the  exercise  or  en- 
jojawnt  of  anj  Ciril  Oflke,  Franchise,  or 

The  hon.  and  learned  Baronet  said,  that 
this  Bill  was  almost  identical  with  the 
one  introdnced  by  him  last  Session,  and 
whidi  the  present  Homo  Secretary  in- 
timated his  desire  to  support.  The  Bill 
passed    through  all   its   stages   in    that 

House ;  but  it  was,  unfortunately,  thrown 
out  in  the  other  Honse  in  the  month 
of  July,  ns  the  noblo  Lord  at  the  head 
of  the  Governniciit  objecled  to  pro- 
ceeding with  it  nt  the  lato  period  of 
the  Session  nt  which  it  cumo  before  tho 
House,  e.«pcciully  as  it  was  expected  that 
tho  Koyal  Com  mission  oppointed  on  tho 
general  subject  would  sliortly  mulu*  their 
Hcport,  when  a  more  comprehensive  mea- 
sure might  be  introduced  this  Session.  Ho 
believed,  however,  that  the  Ueport  Imd 
not  yet  appeared;  and  ho  was  ccitainly 
unwilling  that  a  Declaration,  which  was 
80  objectionable  to  a  vast  number  of  his 
fellow-countrymen,  should  remain  on  tho 
statute  book,  and  he  therefore  now  moved 
for  leave  to  introduce  the  Bill.  An  addi- 
tional reason  for  introducing  it  at  this 
time  was  to  be  found  in  the  reply  which 
the  right  hon.  Gentleman  tlie  Secretary  of 
State  for  the  Home  Department  had  given 
to  the  hou.  Member  for  Sheffield,  intimat- 
ing that  the  Government  had  no  intention 
of  introducing  a  Bill  on  tho  subject  of 
Oaths  this  Session. 

Resolution  moved^  That  tho  Olmirmnn  bo  di- 
rector to  move  tho  House,  that  Icare  bo  given  to 
I  bring  in  a  Bill  to  abulisii  a  certain  Deciarntiosi, 
'  commonly  called  the  Declaration  against  Tran- 
substantiation,  Invocation  of  Saints,  and  tho  sa- 
crifice of  tbo  Mass  as  practised  in  tho  Church  of 
Rome  ;  and  to  render  it  unnecessary  to  take, 
make,  or  subscribe  the  same  as  a  qualification  for 
the  exerciso  or  enjoyment  of  any  Civil  Cfflce, 
Franchise,  or  Right.— (5ir  Colman  0  Loghlen.) 

Mk.  WALPOLE  said,  that  tho  hon. 
and  learned  Baronet  was  perfectly  right 
in  stating  that  when  he  moved  his  Bill  of 
last  Scssiou  he  offered  to  giro  him  his 
humble  support  in  passing  it;  for  he  had 
no  hesitation  in  saying  thnt|  in  his  opi- 
nion, declarations  with  regard  to  solemn 
ceremonies  of  religion  ought  not  to  bo 
made  the  test  upon  which  offices  should 
be  allowed  to  be  accepted  or  not.  Ho 
was  not^)rcpared  to  retract  a  single  word 
DOW  that  tho  further  prosccutiou  of  the 
measure  was  proposed.  With  reference 
to  the  intentions  of  the  Government, 
what  ho  had  stated,  in  answer  to  a 
question  put  by  the  hon.  Member  for 
Sheffield,  was  that  the  Commissioners  ap- 
pointed to  inquire  into  the  subject  hud 
not  yet  made  tlieir  Report,  and  that  until 
they  had  done  so  tho  Government  oould 
make  no  declaration  as  to  what  it  would 
do  on  the  subject.  It  was  certainly  not 
tho  intention  of  the  Government  to  cou- 
tinue  the  unnecessary  number  of  oaths 
now  ou  the  statute  book,  but  they  desired 

f  I 


lU  Offlcei  and  Oathi 

to  wait  for  the  Eeport  of  the  Commusioners 
before  they  proposed  any  definite  legisla- 
tive measure  on  the  Bubject. 

Ms.  NEWDEOATE  was  understooNcl  to 
express  his  regret  at  the  intimation  given 
by  the  Government  that  they  were  not 
prepared  to  offer  any  opposition  to  the 

Mb.  HADFIELD  said,  he  should  be 
glad  to  learn  whether  the  Report  of  the 
Commissioners  would  be  soon  in  the  hands 
of  Members  of  the  House.  He  hoped  that 
after  it  had  been  presented  prompt  action 
would  be  taken  by  the  Gbvernment  in  re- 
lieving persons  who  had  felt  scruples  of  a 
religious  or  moral  nature  against  taking 
oaths  and  declarations.  He  would  be 
glad  to  know  when  the  Beport  would  be 

Mb.  WALPOLE  said,  he  and  his  noble 
Friend  the  Secretary  of  State  for  Foreign 
Affairs  (Lord  Stanley)  were  Members  of 
the  Oaths  Commission;  but  upon  taking 
Office  in  the  Government  they  resigned, 
as  they  found  they  would  not  have  time 
to  attend  to  the  duties  of  the  Commis- 
sion. Under  these  circumstancesi  he  could 
not  positively  answer  the  question  of 
the  hon.  Member  as  to  when  the  Beport 
would  be  presented,  but  he  would  cause 
inquiries  to  be  made.  He  might  say 
that  before  Christmas  the  Commissioners 
had  made  great  progress,  and  he  fully  ex- 
pected that  the  Beport  would  be  drawn 
up  at  no  very  distant  period. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

Resolved,  That  the  Chairmaii  be  directed  to 
move  the  House,  that  leaye  be  given  to  bring  in  a 
BUI  to  abolish  a  oertain  Deolaration,  commonly 
called  the  Declaration  ogainst  IVansubstantiation, 
Invocation  of  Saints,  and  the  Sacrifice  of  the 
Mass  as  practised  in  the  Church  of  Rome  ;  and 
to  render  it  unnecessary  to  take,  make,  or  sub- 
scribe the  same  as  a  qualification  for  the  exercise 
or  eigoyment  of  any  Civil  0£Bce,  Franchise,  or 

Rflfloltttion  reported :  —  Bill  ordered  to  be 
brought  in  by  Sir  Colmah  O'Loobun,  Mr.  Cogav, 
and  Sir  John  Gbat. 

BiU  presented,  and  read  the  first  time.  [Bill  6.] 


Offices  and  Oaths  amitdered  in  Com- 

(In  the  Committee.) 

Snt  COLMAIT  O'LOOHLEN  rose  to 

'*  That  the  Chairman  be  directed  to  move  the 
House,  that  leave  be  given  to  bring  in  a  Bill  to 

Mr.  Ifalpoh 


i^move  oertain  Religious  Disabilitiei  aUseilo^ 
some  of  Her  Miyesty'a  Subjects,  and  to  stmenH. 
the  Law  relating  to  Oaths  of  Office." 

The  hon.  and  learned  Baronet  said  he 
did  not  wish  to  raise  any  discussion  apon. 
this  occasion,   as  he  thought  it  would. 
be  better  to  discuss  the  provisions  of  the 
Bill  upon  the  second  reading.    The  Bill 
which  he  now  asked  leave  to  introdnoe 
was  one  which  he  feared  would  not  meet 
witii  the  same  general  support  as  the  last, 
and  no  doubt  the  hon.  Member  for  North 
Warwickshire,  and  other  hon.  Members  of 
the  same  opinions,  would  offer  to  it  all  the 
opposition  in  their  power ;  but  he  never- 
theless trusted  to  show  to  the  House  that 
it  ought  to  be  carried.    When  he  intro- 
duced in  the  last  Session  his  Bill  for  the 
abolition   of   the    Declaration   regarding 
Transubstantiation,  he  said  that  he  had  do 
intention  to  alter  the  existing  law  as  to 
the  qualifications  for  holding  certain  offioes 
under  Government,  because  he  did  not 
consider  that  such  an  attempt  should  be 
made  indirectly  or  by  a  side-wind,  but 
openly,  so  that  the  House  might  have  a 
full  knowledge  of   the  object  proposed. 
Accordingly  he  now  asked  for  leave  to  in- 
troduce thu  Bill,  the  object  of  which  was 
to  remove  certain  religious  disabilities  aud 
open  to  Boman  Catiholies  oertain  offioes 
now  closed  to  them.    He  would  remind 
the  House  that  there  were  oertain  offioes 
in  Ireland  which  Roman  Catholics  could 
not  hold  in  consequence  of  the  enactments 
in  the  Emancipation  Act  of  1829,  and 
amongst  them  were  those  of  Lord  lieu- 
tenant and  Lord  Chancellor.     The  first 
clause  of  the  Bill  would  enable  Roman 
Catholics  to  hold  the  office  of  Lord  Chan- 
cellor and  the  office  of  Lord  Lieutenant  of 
Ireland.    In  1859  a  BiU  was  introduced 
into  this  House  by  Lord  Athlumney  (then 
Sir  William  Somervillo)  and  Mr.  Herbert^ 
to  enable  the  Lord  Chancellorship  of  Ireland 
to  be  held  by  Boman  Catholics,  and  that 
Bill  was  supported  by  Lord  Palmerston^ 
Sir  Geoi^  Lewis,  Mr.  Cardwell,  and  other 
eminent  Members  of  the  House.    Bat  in 
consequence  of  the  late  period  at  which 
the  Bill  was  introduced  the  oppoaitiott 
that  was  offered  to  it  proved  suocesBful, 
and  it  was  withdrawn.    The  Lord  Chan- 
cellor of  Ireland,  unlike  the  Lord  Chan- 
cellor of  England,  had  no  ecclesiastical 
patronage ;  in  fact,  he  was  no  moie  than 
the  highest  equity  Judge  in  that  country, 
and  there  could  be  no  reason  why  a  Roman 
CathoUo  should  not  hold  the  office.    The 
other  office  he  proposed  to  open  was  that 

Ifd        Oflmani  Oaiii       |Febbvabt  1, 1867) 



of  the  Lord  Lieutenant  of  Ireland ;  nor 
oonld  he  underetand  why  the  Emanoipa- 
tion  Act  excluded  Roman  Catholics  from 
it.   A  Roman  Catholic  might  he  the  Chief 
Secretary  for  Ireland;  he  might  he  the 
Prime  Minister  of  England ;  he  might  fill 
any  of  the  Chief  Secretaryships  of  State ; 
hut  he  was  not  allowed  to  he  Lord  Lieu- 
tenant of  Ireland.    It  might  be  said  that 
as  the  Lord  lieutenant  represented  Her 
Majesty — the  representative  of  the  Pro- 
testant Crown — ^he  must  he  a  Protestant ; 
hut  it  should  be  remembered  that  the 
GoTemor  General  of  Canada,  of  India, 
or  of  any  Australian  colony,  or  of  any 
other  dependency   of  the  Crown,  might 
he  a  Roman  CathoUo.    It  was  difficult, 
therefore,  to  argue  with  any  consistency 
that  a  Roman  Catholic  was  disqualified 
from  properly  representing  Her  Majesty 
in  Ireland.     It  was  true  that  the  Lord 
Lieutenant   of  Ireland   enjoyed   a  good 
deal  of  ecclesiastical  patronage;   hut  in 
the  event  of  the  office  being  filled  by  a 
Roman  Catholic,  that  patronage  could  be 
dispensed  by  some  other  person  ;  just  as, 
he  presumed,  that  if  the  Prime  lUnister  of 
England  were  of  the  Roman  Catholic  per- 
suasion he  would  not  interfere  with  the 
filling  up  of  vacancies  in  the  episcopal 
bench.     The  Secretary  of  State  for  the 
Home  Department  enjoyed  lai^e  ecclesi- 
astical patronage  in  Scotland,  yet  a  Roman 
Catholic  could  fill  the  office,  though  in 
such  a  case  he  would  not  dispense  this 
particular  branch  of  the  patronage  attach- 
ing to  his  office.    All  that  he  sought  by 
the  Bill  was  to  place  all  the  subjects  of 
Her  Majesty  on  perfect  religious  equality. 
He  did  not  desire  to  provide  that  the  Lord 
Lieutenant  or  the  Lord  Chancellor  of  Ire- 
land should  bo  a  Roman  Catholic,  but  only 
that  he  might  be,  if  an  occasion  should 
arise  when  it  appeared  convenient,  to  give 
the  appointment  to  a  gentleman  or  noble- 
man of  that  persuasion.    The  next  clause 
of  the  Bill  had  for  its  object  to  repeal 
what  he  must  consider  as  a  most  miserable 
dause  in  the  Emancipation  Act  of  1829  — 
namely,  the  clause  that  prevented  mayors 
and  other  corporate  officers  who  might  bo 
Roman  Catholics  from  attending  Divine 
worship   in   their    robes   of   office,  and 
Judges  who  might  be  Roman  Catiiolics 
from  attending  Divine  worship  in  their 
official  robes.    This  enactment  was  natu- 
rally the  occasion  of  ill-feeling  in  Ireland. 
It  was,  in  fact,  sa3^g  that  the  mayor  of  a 
town  might  be  a  Roman  Catholic,  but  his 
robe  and  chain  of  office  must  be  Protes- 

tant ;  or  a  Judge  might  believe  in  tran- 
substantiatton,  but  his  wig  and  his  gown 
must  agree  in  the  orthodoxy  of  the  TUrty- 
nine  Articles.  The  time  had  come  when 
they  should  put  an  end  to  these  miserable 
remnants  of  the  past.  When  a  Protestant 
mayor  was  elected  for  Dublin  he  went  in 
state  to  Christ^s  Church;  but  when  a 
Roman  Catholic  was  elected,  he  could  not 
go  in  state  to  his  place  of  worship.  The 
third  and  last  provision  of  the  Bill  related 
to  the  abolition  of  certain  oaths.  The 
House  was  aware  that  last  Session  the 
Catholic  oath  question  was  finally  settled, 
and  a  uniform  oath  was  adopted,  which 
every  Member  of  Parliament  must  take  in 
future  when  he  took  his  seat.  But  the 
only  persons  relieved  fh>m  what  the  Legis- 
lature proclaimed  last  Session  to  be  an 
offensive  oath  were  Members  of  Parlia- 
ment; and  the  old  oath  had  still  to  be 
taken  by  members  of  corporations,  magis- 
trates, professional  men,  and  others  in  Ire- 
land. What  he  desired  by  the  third  clause 
was  to  provide  that  the  oath  adopted  last 
Session  by  the  House  should  be  the  only 
one  to  be  used  for  the  future  in  all  cases. 
These  were  the  simple  provisions  of  the 
Bill,  and  he  would  repeat  that  he  did  not 
wish  to  raise  any  discussion  upon  them  at 
present.  He  trusted  that  when  the  House 
came  to  consider  the  Bill  they  would  see 
that  he  asked  nothing  which  was  not  per- 
fectly reasonable  and  just. 

Resolution  moved,  Thai  the  Chairman  be  di- 
rected to  moTe  the  Ilouse,  that  leave  be  given  to 
bring  in  a  Bill  to  remoTe  certain  Relisioas  Disa- 
bilities affecting  some  of  Her  Majestjrs  subiects, 
and  to  amend  the  Law  relating  to  Oaths  of  Oflkse. 
^(Sir  Colman  O^LogUen.) 

Mb.  NEWDEGA.TE  said,  he  thought 
that  this  second  BiU  very  clearly  explained 
the  object  of  the  last  Bill  which  the  hon. 
Member  had  introduced.  The  Bill  for 
the  Abolition  of  the  Declaration  regard- 
ing Transubstantiation  passed  that  House 
last  Session  on  the  ground  that  the  de- 
claration was  simply  offensive  to  Eo- 
man  Catholics,  though  he,  Mr.  White- 
side, and  some  oth^  hon.  Members  had 
endeavoured  to  impress  upon  the  Houses 
that  it  was  merely  a  disguise  for  a  poli- 
tical object.  The  other  House  was,  he 
believed,  of  that  opinion,  and  rejected  the 
Bill.  The  proposal  before  the  House  was 
that  any  office  in  Ireland  might  be  filled 
by  a  Eoman  Catholic.  Though  ours  was  a 
Protestant  monarchy,  yet  it  was  proposed 
that  the  office  of  Lord  Lieutenant  in  Ire- 
land— which  represented  the  Queen— 


Cjjflmtmi  Oaihi 




might  be  filled  by  a  Roman  Catholic.  He 
would  remind  the  Goyemment  that  the 
Protestant  subjeote  of  this  country  attached 
great  importance  to  the  fact  that  the  Crown 
stood  limited  to  Protestants.  That  was 
settled  at  the  Bevolution,  and  was  con- 
sidered by  their  ancestors,  and  had  ever 
since  been  considered,  to  be  one  of  the 
safeguards  of  the  country.  Their  experi- 
ence taught  them  that  that  limitation  had 
proved  salutary  and  wise,  and  the  wisdom 
of  this  limitation  was  exhibited  in  the 
increasing  prosperity  of  the  country.  The 
hon.  and  learned  Baronet  said  the  depcn* 
dencies  of  this  country  might  be  presided 
over  by  Eoman  Catholics  as  Governors. 
He  (Mr.  Newdegate)  believed  that  there 
had  been  instances  of  that  kind ;  but  did 
the  hon.  Member  mean  to  say  that  Ireland 
was  a  dependency  ?  He  (Mr.  Newdegnte) 
thought  Ireland  was  part  of  the  United 
Kingdom.  The  hon.  and  learned  Baronet 
.seemed  to  think  that  the  liberality  of  the 
House  ought  to  have  no  bounds,  for  year 
after  year  these  demands  were  increased. 
He  did  not  desire  on  that  occasion  to  enter 
at  large  into  the  question ;  but  he  trusted 
that  the  Government  would  remember  that 
they  had  been  hitherto  supported  by  the 
Church  of  England  and  the  Protestant  opi- 
nion of  the  country,  and  if  they  desired 
hereafter  to  have  that  support,  they 
must,  at  all  events,  be  ready  to  guard 
the  Protestantism  of  the  Crown,  and  be 
ready  to  secure  that  Her  Majesty  should 
not  in  the  United  Kingdom  be  directly 
represented  by  a  Boman  Catholic.  He 
was  willing  to  grant  to  his  Boroau  Catholic 
fellow'Subjects  everything  that  could  be 
granted  consistently  with  what  experience 
had  shown  to  be  necessary  for  the  mainte- 
nance of  the  freedom  of  their  own  religion 
as  well  as  of  ours.  The  House  would  do 
well  to  consider  how  this  proposal  would 
be  looked  upon  by  foreigners  who  have 
more  experience  of  Ultramontane  tactics 
.than  we  have  in  England.  Count  Mont- 
alembert,  in  writing  the  Political  Future  of 
England^  urged  the  Boman  Catholics  of  this 
country  and  their  priesthood  to  claim,  upon 
the  ground  of  religious  equality,  admission 
to  every  office,  and  in  making  this  recom- 
mendation, ho  added,  "  that  under  a  free 
Government  more  than  under  any  other 
form  of  Government,  if  you  urge  this 
plea  and  persevere  in  it,  nothing  can  re- 
sist your  power."  If  the  Boman  Catholic 
religion  were  dissevered  from  the  political 
system,  with  which  it  was  connected,  the 
objections  which  he  entertained  would  not 

Mr.  Nmiegat9 

possess  one-half  tfaor  fime.    Bat  fha  ex- 
perience of  the  whole  of  Europe  at  the 
present  day  showed  that  the  Papacy  wss 
the  centre  and  instrument  of  a  powerful 
political  prepagandism,  which  in  too  many 
countries  had  proved  itself  revolutionary^ 
and  it  was  but  the  other  day  that  extracts 
wore  published  in  this  country  from  a 
most  important  document — he  referred  to 
the  despatch  of  Prince  Gortschakoff  ex- 
plaining the  grounds  of  the  abandonment 
of  the  Concordat  between  the  Imperial 
Government  and  the  Holy  See — the  Con- 
cordat of  1847  ;  and  connected  widi  that 
despatch  documents  showing  that,  so  far 
as  was  consistent  with  the  safety  of  the 
State,  the  Kussian  Government  had  on 
several  marked  occasions  made  all  possible 
concessions  to  the  Boman  Catholics,  and 
had  granted  them  complete  security  for 
their  religious  institutions  and  property* 
The  result  of  these  concessions  had  been 
witnessed  in  several  insurrections,  and  at 
lost  a  most  bloody  civil  war  in  Poland, 
directly  sanctioned  by  the  Papacy.    It  was 
his  intention  to  ask  the  noble  Lord  at  the 
head  of  the  Foreign  Department  to  lay 
that  important  document  upon  the  table 
of  the  House,  for  he  (Mr.  Newdegate) 
had  long  noticed  a  parallel  between  the 
policy  of  the  Papacy  in  Ireland  and  the 
policy  of  the  Papacy  in  Poland,  which 
could  not  be  mistaken.    The  effect,  how- 
ever, of  that  policy  in  Ireland  had  been 
less  violent,  owing  to  the  wiser  govern- 
ment of  Ireland  by  England.    But  still 
there  was  an  analogy  between  tho  position 
of  tho  people  of  Ireland  and  the  position 
of  the  people  of  Poland,  inasmuch  as  they 
were  of  the  Boman  Catholic  religion  to  a 
great  extent,  and  when  it  was  proposed  to 
sweep  away  the  last  vestige  in  Ireland  of 
the  fact  that  the  Sovereignty  of  England 
was  Protestant,  it  was  high  time  that  the 
House  should  look    abroad;  should  not 
regard   the   subject  in  a  narrow  spirit; 
should  not  be  deluded  into  the  belief  that 
we  were  merely  making  ooncessions  to 
religions  scruples  when  it  was  evident  that 
these  concessions  would  encourage  a  deep 
and  wide-spread  conspiracy. 

Captain  HEBBEBT  supported  the  Mo- 
tion. He  thought  it  quite  time  that  all 
such  invidious  distinctions  founded  on  re- 
ligious differences  should  cease.  He  drew 
attention  to  the  fact  that  no  Irishman  or 
Papist  was  allowed  to  enter  the  Guards. 
How  could  they,  when  there  was  such  a 
talk  about  friendship  for  the  Irish  people, 
maintain  such  exclusions?    Why  should 

117       QfimmuKkOi  (FEBBtrABT  y,  1867J         SiH^OmmUUe.         11« 

not  Irishmen  be  in  the  Gnards?  Or, 
raUier,  why  should  not  Ireland  have  a 
r^ment  of  Guards  as  well  as  Scotland  ? 
He  thanked  his  hon.  Friend  for  haring 
introduced  this  subject. 

Ms.  EADFIELD  remarked  that  the 
comments  of  the  hon.  Member  for  North 
Warwickshire  (Mr.  Newdegate),  were 
based  on  the  Church  Establishment;  but 
it  was  evident  that  there  was  at  tlie  pre- 
sent time  a  yery  uneasy  feeling  in  the 
public  mind  relative  to  what  was  going 
on  in  the  Church  Establishment.  Had  the 
hon.  Gentleman  ever  considered  what  had 
been  stated,  though  not  in  his  place  in  the 
House  of  Lords,  by  the  Earl  of  Shaftes- 
bury; had  he  reflected  on  the  apathy 
shown  by  a  Protestant  Chancellor  and 
thirty  Bishops  in  the  Douse  of  Lords  with 
regard  to  this  question  ?  The  fact  was 
that  they  merely  stood  by  and  did  nothing, 
leaving  it  to  take  its  chance.  He  believ^ 
that  there  existed  amongst  all  classes  a 
cordial  attachment  to  the  Throne  of  this 
country,  and  was  surprised  at  the  course 
so  often  taken  by  the  hon.  Member  for 
Korth  Warwickshire.  That  hon.  Gentle- 
man had  for  eight  years  fought  a  Bill 
which  merely  proposed  to  remove  a  decla- 
ration which  the  Leader  of  the  Conserva- 
tive* party  declared  to  be  not  worth  the 
paper  on  which  it  was  printed  so  far  as 
regarded  the  protection  of  the  Church  of 
England.  That  declaration  was  at  last 
repealed,  and  he  trusted  that  many  of  the 
childish  declarations  and  difficulties  which 
in  former  times  had  arisen  from  events 
very  different  to  those  of  the  present  day 
would  be  removed,  and  that  the  day  would 
soon  arrive  when  no  man  would  be  known 
but  in  respect  of  the  excellence  of  his  cha- 
racter and  his  desire  to  promote  the  in- 
terests of  the  country. 

Ms.  WHALLEY  said,  he  felt  he  could 
add  nothing  to  what  had  fSallen  from  the 
hon.  Member  for  North  Warwickshire  (Mr. 
l^ewdcgate),  who,  ho  was  happy  to  see, 
had  resumed  the  position  he  had  occupied 
for  80  many  years  upon  this  subject.  He 
must,  however,  express  his  amazement  at 
the  observations  which  had  fallen  from  the 
hon.  Member  for  Sheffield,  whose  pre- 
sumption was  beyond  conception,  because 
he  would  insist  upon  it  that  the  various 
protections  which  existed  were  frivolous 
and  unnecessary.  The  opinion  which  the 
hon.  Gentleman  had  expressed  appeared  to 
be  so  chronic,  so  engraven  in  ms  mind, 
that  he  did  not  appear  to  remember  what 
had  been  said  by  the  hon*  Member  for 

North  Warwickshire.  Whatever  might 
have  been  the  course  pursued  by  that  hon. 
Gentleman  for  the  last  eight  years  the 
question  now  was  not  a  question  of  re- 
ligion, but  whether  it  was  or  not  a  fact 
that,  associated  with  the  religious  views 
professed  by  Roman  Catholics,  there  were 
certain  political  opinions,  which  in  all 
ages,  and  in  all  countries — and  never  more 
than  at  the  present  moment — were  incon- 
sistent with  independence  and  with  every 
principle  of  civil  and  religious  freedom. 
The  hon.  Member  for  Sheffield  appeared 
to  have  overlooked  that  fact,^  and  to  insist 
that  all  the  precautions  which  our  ancestors 
had  framed  and  devised  were  frivolous  and 
vexatious.  He  must  also  remind  the  House 
that  if  the  question  were  decided  according 
to  the  views  of  the  hon.  and  learned  Baronet 
they  would  be  acting  wholly  without  Par- 
liamentary precedent  They  had  refused  an 
inquiry,  and  adopted  the  sentiment  of  the 
hon.  Member  for  Sheffield,  that  this  was 
simply  a  question  of  religious  scruple, 
which  he  firmly  maintained  it  was  not. 
He  (Mr.  Whalley)  had  been  cried  down 
in  a  former  Session  for  asserting  that  the 
Fenian  conspiracy  had  been  originated  in 
the  interests  of  the  Eoman  Catholic  hier- 
archy; but  if  the  House  would  grant  a 
Committee  to  investigate  the  subject  he 
was  prepared  to  reiterate  that  assertion, 
and  to  prove  it  upon  evidence  as  reasonable 
as  the  nature  of  the  case  admitted.  From 
1862  till  very  recently  the  treasonable 
organization  had  been  sustained  by  the 
same  power  that  gave  it  birth ;  and  then, 
as  in  the  case  of  all  other  Irish  rebellions, 
when  it  had  served  its  purpose,  it  was 
allowed  to  drop,  the  Boman  Catholic 
hierarchy  saying,  "  We  will  go  no  further 
in  this  business  at  the  present  time."  Just 
as  the  Fenian  pikes  recently  discovered 
were  found  carefully  oiled  and  greased, 
and  evidently  laid  by  for  a  better  oppor- 
tunity, so  tho  Fenian  organization  was  put 
out  of  sight  to  be  revived  at  some  future 
period.  The  case  of  Ireland  was  almost 
identical  with  that  of  New  Zealand.  And, 
perhaps,  the  able  and  gallant  General,  now 
at  the  head  of  the  War  Department,  would 
hereafter  speak  out  and  tell  the  House, 
how  it  came  to  pass  that  10,000  British 
soldiers  were  unable  to  put  down  5,000 
natives  in  insurrection,  who  were  quelled 
by  the  colonists  as  soon  as  the  soldiers 
were  withdrawn.  [  Cries  of  "  Question  !"] 
If  the  House  were  enlightened  upon  the 
point,  it  would  be  found  that  the  rebellion 
had  bera  fomented  by  the  Soman  Catholic 


itflf «(  JVirvy--* 


Motimfir  SHttrm. 


priests  and  penons  professiDg  the  Roman 
Catholic  religion. 

Motion  agreed  to, 

ReiohfeSt,  That  the  Chairman  he  directed  to 
more  the  Hooae,  that  leaye  he  given  to  hring  in  a 
Bill  to  remoTe  certain  Religioai  Diaahiiitiea  af- 
fecting Bome  of  Her  Majesty's  snhjeots,  and  to 
amend  the  Law  relating  to  Oaths  of  Office. 

Resolution  reported:  —  Bill  ordered  to  he 
hrought  in  hj  Sir  Colmah  O'Loobuv,  Mr.CooAN, 
and  Sir  Jobh  Grat. 

BiWjn^eeenied,  and  read  the  first  time.  [Bill  7.] 



Standing  Committee  appointed  and  nominated, 
"  to  control  the  arrangements  of  the  Kitchen  and 
Refreshment  Rooms,  in  the  department  of  the 
Serjeant  at  Arms  attending  this  House:" — Colonel 
Frbmcb,  Lord  Robibt  Mobtagu,  Mr.  DAXdOUss, 
Mr.  Obslow,  Mr.  Adam,  General  Dubbb,  Mr. 
Alderman  Lawbbbcb,  Mr.  Robbbtsob,  and  Cap- 
tain J.  C.  W.  VxTUB  :^Three  to  he  the  quorum. 

Uonaeadljonnied  at  half  after 
SoTcn  o'clock. 



Uridaff,  February  8,  1867. 

MINUTES.]— 5<i<  Firet  in  Par/iamim<-- The 
Lord  Tyrone  after  the  Death  of  his  Father. 


LoBD  EEDESDALE  said,  he  was  sonr 
to  haye  to  call  the  attention  of  their  Lora- 
ships  to  a  matter  personal  to  himself, 
'which,  however,  he  should  not  have 
hrought  before  them  had  it  not  involved 
the  privileges  of  their  Lordships'  House. 
He  had  received  a  pamphlet  written  by 
Mr.  France,  a  railway  contractor,  which, 
purporting  to  give  a  review  of  his  conduct 
as  regarded  a  certain  Railway  Bill  during 
its  progress  through  the  Legislature,  not 
only  canvassed  his  opinions,  but  also  made 
some  reflections  upon  him  as  Chairman 
of  Crommittees.  He  had  no  objection  to 
having  his  opinions  canvassed  by  any  one; 
but  Mr.  France  went  further,  and  boldly 
stated  that  he  would  deal  witii  the  noble 
Lord  in  his  judicial  capacity.  Bemarking 
that  he  was  the  contractor  of  the  Mold 
and  Denbigh  Bailway,  he  charged  him 
(Lord  Redesdale)  with  having  come  to  an 
unwarrantable  decision  with  reference  to  a 
Bill  in  which  that  railway  was  concerned, 
Ut.  Whalley 

and  with  having  inserted  a  clause  in  ano- 
ther Bill  relating  to  the  same  railway. 
He  (Lord  Bedesdale)  was  unable  to  under- 
stand how  Mr.  France  could  have  confused 
matters  as  he  had  done;  but  it  was  much 
to  be  regretted  that  the  circumstantial 
nature  of  his  pamphlet  save  it  all  the  ap- 
pearance of  truth,  while,  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  it  was  false  from  beginning  to  end. 
He  intended  to  draw  Mr.  France's  atten- 
tion to  the  matter  by  letter,  and  leave  him 
to  take  what  course  he  pleased ;  but  unless 
he  received  from  him  a  complete  retracta- 
tion of  all  the  charges  he  had  made  asainst 
him,  he  should  think  it  his  duty,  in  the 
course  of  next  week,  to  ask  their  Lord- 
ships to  order  Mr.  France  to  the  Bar  of  the 


HER  MAJESTY'S  Answer  to  the  Ad- 
dress, reported  as  follows :— - 

''  My  Lords, 

**  I  THAKK  you  sincerely  for  your  loyal 
and  dutiful  Address. 

"You  may  be  assured  that  I  shall 
always  be  ready  to  co-operate  with  you  in 
all  Measures  which  have  for  their  Object 
the  Improvements  of  the  Laws  and  Insti- 
tutions of  the  Country,  and  the  Fromotioa 
of  the  Wel&re  and  Happiness  of  My 

Address  and  Answer  to  be  printed  and 



The  Duke  ov  SOMERSET,  in  nwviny 
for  certain  Returns  respecting  the  Royal 
Navy,  said :  My  Lords,  I  have  thought  it 
right  to  bring  forward  Uiis  Motion,  because 
there  has  been,  as  it  appears  to  me,  a  gfeat 
misconception  throughout  the  country  as 
to  the  state  in  which  the  navy  has  been 
left  by  the  late  Government.  I  do  not 
know  whether  I  can  ascribe  that  opinion 
to  a  few  words  which  fell  from  the  present 
First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty  (Sir  John 
Pakington)  in  another  place  at  Uie  end  of 
last  Session ;  but  certainly  the  notion  has 
spread  until  it  has  been  stated  in  different 
parts  of  the  country,  and  has  been  re- 
peated for  many  months,  that  we  have  at 
the  present  moment  no  sufficient  number 
of  vessels  for  naval  purposes,  and  that  the 


Sojfol  Jtavjf-^  {Febbttabt  8, 1867}        Motumfar  Bdutn$.       122 

oonniry  waa  left  by  the  late  Government 
vithoat  efficient  protection  bo  far  as  our 
navY  is  concerned,  although  there  has  been 
dnnng  the  last  six  years  a  large  expendi- 
turo  devoted  to  that  portion  of  the  public 
service,  amounting  to  between  £65,000,000 
and  £70,000,000.    Such  at  least  has  been 
the  impression.  Your  Lordships  will  there- 
fore see  that  it  is  desirable  that  no  oppor- 
tunity should  be  lost  of  calling  for  Betums 
showing  what  has  really  been  done  in  the 
way  of  building  ships  during  the  six  years 
that  the  late  Government  was  in  Office.  As 
many  ships,  I  believe,  have  at  least  been 
constructed  during  that  period  as  during 
any  other  six  years  of  peace.    In  those 
six  years  we  built  140  vessels  of  different 
kinds.    That  is  a  considerable  amount  of 
shipbuilding.    Not  only  have  we   done 
this,  but  it  should  be  remembered  that 
our  path  has  been  beset  by  difficulties. 
Great  changes  have  taken  place  in  con- 
struction both  as  regards  iron  and  wooden 
ships,  and  much  difference  of  opinion  has 
existed  as  to  the  amount  of  plating  which 
should  be  applied  to  the  different  classes 
of  nev  ships.    While  the  transition  in  all 
departments  was  so  great,  the  Board  of 
Admiralty  over  which  I  presided  felt  a 
great  responsibility  rested  upon  them  in 
regard  to  the  expenditure  which  should  be 
incurred.    On  the  one  hand,  we  felt  it 
desiraUe  to  do  all  we  could  to  keep  up 
the  navy  in  a  state  of  efficiency ;  and  on 
the  otlier,  we  recognised  the  folly  of  build- 
ing a  vast  number  of  ships  which  might 
be  useful  at  the  moment,  but  which  would 
certainly  be  superseded  in  the  course  of  a 
few  years.    I  think  we  acted  wisely  in 
not  building  ships  faster,  because  iron- 
clads are  a  very  expensive  description  of 
vessel,  and  new  experiments  and  improve- 
ments were  being  constantly  made  with 
reference  to  size,  armament,  and  sheath- 
ing.   It  was  almost  impossible  to  provide 
a  very  good  fleet  while  these  experiments 
were  proceeding,  or  to  collect  a  number  of 
vessels  and  bring  them  to  act  together,  as 
we  might  have  done  if  greater  uniformity 
prevailed  among  them.    In  fact,  if  any 
opinion  was  to  have  been  given  on  our 
conduct,  I  thought  that  opinion  would 
have  been  that  we  had  done  too  much 
rather  than  too  little  in  the  way  of  ship- 
building.   I  had  not  only  to  determine 
what  we  should  do,  but  to  judge  of  the 
probable  consequences  hereafter.    When 
I  first  came  into  Office  we  had  not  a  single 
iron-clad  vessel.    We  now  possess  thirty- 
Vi^  VMSkj  of  them  of  great  siae.  During 

a  time  of  rapid  progress  in  the  art  of  ship- 
building it  is  almost  impossible  to  construct 
a  satisfactory  fleet,  because  every  new  ship 
possesses  improvements  which  render  it 
superior  to  its  predecessor.    At  the  same 
time,  it  would  have  evinced  great  negli- 
gence of  the  true  interests  of  the  country 
to  have  adhered  to  the  pattern  of  the  first 
ship.    The  fTarrior,  for  instance,  was  a 
very  fine  vessel  at  the  time  of  its  construc- 
tion, but  in  the  course  of  a  few  years  it 
has  become  comparatively  inferior  to  many 
others  that  have  been  since  built.  Neither 
the  offensive  nor  the  defensive  qualities  of 
that  vessel  are  as  good  as  we  could  wish. 
I  was  anxious,  as  far  as  possible,  to  anti- 
cipate the  wants  of  the  country  a  few  years 
hence,  and  I  think  that  we  certainly  have 
made  considerable  progress.  I  believe  that, 
on  the  whole,  there  is  no  ground  for  dis- 
satisfaction with  the  vessels  that  have  been 
built.    I  have  reason  to  believe  that  the 
opinions  of  the  distinguished  officers  of  the 
Channel  fleet  are  favourable;  and  when, 
as  at  Cherbourg,  the  merits  of  our  vessels 
have  been  compared  with  those  of  other 
nations,  the  general  opinion  was  that  we 
had  no  reason  to  be  dissatisfied  with  the 
vessels  we  possessed.    I  cannot  see,  there- 
fore, that  there  is  anything  to  blame  as 
far  as  the  construction  of  our  iron-dad 
ships  is  concerned.  Then  again,  as  regards 
the  wooden  vessels,  in  the  early  part  of 
my  administration — namely,  from  1860  to 
1862  or  1863 — we  did  not  know  the  gun 
which  these  vessels  would  have  to  carry. 
Unless  you  know  what  gun  a  vessel  has 
to  carry  you  are  working  a  great  deal  in 
the  dark,  and  it  was  clear  that  our  ships 
would  eventually  carry  a  much  larger  gun 
than  was  then  employed.    The  demands 
of  the  service,  too,  compelled  us  to  repair 
and  employ  fnany  of  our  old  vessels,  and 
this  could  only  be  done  at  a  considerable 
cost.    Upon  these  grounds,  therefore,  the 
number  of  Tossels  built  was,  I  believe,  as 
great  as  it  should  have  been.    I  may, 
perhaps,  now  make  a  few  observations 
on  another  point  —  the  question  of  ex- 
penditure.    It  seems  to  have  been  sup- 
posed in  many  quarters  that  the   whole 
of  the  £70,000,000  voted  for  the  navy 
was  applicable  to  the  purposes  of  ship- 
building.     Now,    any    such   notion    as 
that  is   a  great   misapprehension.    The 
amount   really    expended   in    dockyards 
during   those   six   years,   not  including 
vesseU  built  by  oonkact,  would  be  about 
£10,000,000;  but  a  great  proportion  of 

that  sum  has  beea  expe^deil  in  th^ 




Motion  fir  Seiurm. 


repair  and  outfit  of  veseeU  already  oon- 
Btnieted.  The  proportion  spent  in  building 
would  be  less  certainly  than  half  of  the 
£10,000,000.  We  also  .built  by  oontract 
vessels  at  an  expense  of  about  £7,000,000. 
This  sum — namely,  £7,000,000  —  with 
about  £3,000,000  or  £4,000,000  expended 
in  the  dockyards,  would  represent,  I  be- 
lieve, the  whole  of  our  expenditure  on 
shipbuilding.  It  has  been  charged  against 
us  that  we  were  proceeding  on  a  wrong 
principle.  It  must,  howeyer,  be  remem- 
bered that  we  were  passing  through  a 
period  of  transition,  when  our  progress 
had  to  be  guided  b^  experiment.  Great 
praise  had  been  lavished  on  vessels  built 
in  private  yards,  and  their  merits  were 
extolled  at  toe  expense  of  those  constructed 
in  the  Qovemment  yards.  We  were  con- 
stantly warned  that  our  ships  as  then  con- 
structed were  of  no  use,  and  were  told 
that  the  turret  principle  was  the  one  which 
ought  to  be  adopted.  Beasons,  of  which 
the  House  is  aware,  induced  the  Admiralty 
to  purchase  a  couple  of  turret  vessels  which 
were  lying  in  the  Mersey.  Before  we 
bought  them,  those  by  whom  they  were 
visited  brought  away  flaming  accounts  of 
their  excellent  qualities — ^it  was  said  that 
they  were  capable  of  destroying  the  whole 
fleet — but  no  sooner  did  they  come  into 
our  possession  than  every  one  found  fault 
with  them.  No  doubt  thoy  are  good  vessels 
for  coast  defence ;  but  the  discomfort  to 
the  ofBcers  and  men  are  so  great  that  it 
soon  became  evident  they  were  not  fit 
vessels  to  send  to  sea.  I  paid  them  a  visit, 
and,  although  the  officers  treated  the  matter 
with  the  good  temper  and  good  huuMur 
which  usually  characterize  the  officers  of 
the  navy,  it  was  evident  that  there  was  a 
considerable  amount  of  discomfort,  and 
that  if  turret  ships  were  adopted  they 
ought  not  to  be  constructed  according  to 
that  pattern.  At  another  time  we  were 
told  that  we  ought  to  imitate  exactly 
vessels  that  were  being  built  in  America ; 
and  before  the  arrival  of  the  Miantonomoh 
we  were  continually  being  asked  why  we 
did  not  build  an  impregnable  vessel,  whose 
sides  should  be  but  little  abovo  the  leyel 
of  the  water,  of  great  speed,  carrying  one 
or  two  heavy  guns,  and  requiring  but  few 
men  for  her  management.  I  was  very 
glad  when  that  vessel  arrived  at  these 
shores,  because  it  at  once  became  apparent 
to  every  one  conversant  with  the  subject 
that  it  was  impossible  to  make  a  crew 
comfortable  on  board  such  a  ship.  The 
TentUation  dopendedentirely  on  the  steam- 

J%o  Duie  o/ 8omor9it 

engine,  and  the  crew  of  the  Miantonomoh 
were  not  only  exposed  to  every  discomfort, 
but  they  wero  liable  to  be  smothered  ia 
the  event  of  anything  happening  to  the 
ventilating  engine  so  as  to  prevent  its 
working  for  a  few  minutes.  I  was  informed 
by  one  of  the  officers  on  board  that  ship 
that  on  one  occasion  the  engine  had  been 
stopped  accidentally  for  a  short  time,  and 
that  the  crew  were  scarcely  able  to  breathe 
until  it  was  set  to  work  again.  It  waa 
evident  that  it  would  have  been  impossible 
to  send  such  a  ship  on  a  three  years'  cruise 
to  any  pai-t  of  the  world;  and  therefore 
vessels  of  this  description,  howeyer  well 
fitted  for  coast  defence,  would  not  be  ap- 
plicable to  the  general  purposes  of  the 
British  Navy.  With  regard  to  any  ge- 
neral reduction  in  the  expenditure  upon 
the  navy,  I  may  remark  that  out  of 
the  £70,000,000  there  were  at  least 
£40,000,000  expended  upon  objects  with 
which  no  Board  of  Admiralty  could  in- 
terfere. With  regard  to  tho  accounts,  I 
can  only  say  that  I  was  very  anxious 
that  the  most  strictly  accurate  accounts 
should  be  kept  in  the  dockyards.  An 
enormous  expenditure  was  incurred  in 
those  establishments  in  consequence  of 
converting  sailing  vessels  into  steamers 
and  wooden  ships  into  iron-dads — the  lat- 
ter process  invoWing  tho  erection  of  very 
costly  machinery  for  bending,  planing, 
drilling,  and  otherwise  working  plates  of 
iron  six  inches  thick.  I  was  very  anx- 
ious, taking  into  consideration  tho  vast  and 
annually  increasing  expenditure  in  the 
dockyai^s,  that  a  good  system  of  keeping 
accounts  should  be  introduced  into  those 
Departments  ;  and  accordingly  in  1860  I 
consulted  upon  the  matter  with  the  late 
Sir  Richard  Bromley,  who  was  well  ac- 
quainted with  the  subject,  and  it  was  with 
his  assistance  that  what  are  called  "  tho 
Expense  Accounts "  were  established,  and 
an  officer  was  appointed  in  each  dockyard 
to  audit  the  accounts.  I  believe,  from 
what  I  have  heard,  that  upon  the  whole 
the  accounts  are  in  a  state  of  gradual  im- 
provement; and  although  I  am  not  prepared 
to  say  that  they  may  not  bo  yet  further 
improved,  I  am  convinced  that  they  are 
established  upon  a  sound  and  good  system. 
It  was,  however,  objected  in  the  House  of 
Commons,  and  in  the  public  newspapers, 
that  our  accounts  were  of  no  use,  as  it 
was  not  possible  to  ^certain  from  them 
the  total  cost  of  any  particular  vessel,  so 
that  the  expenditure  upon  it  might  be 
contrasted  with  the  price  of  a  similar  vea« 


(Febbitast  8, 1867)       Mctknfor  SehimB. 


Bel  built  in  a  prirate  yard.  It  was  said 
that  Tre  ougbt  to  prepare  a  complete 
balance  sheet  like  any  private  firm,  show- 
ing the  cost  of  each  individoal  vessel, 
and  that  every  expense  in  connection 
with  each  dockyard  must  be  carried  into 
account,  and  a  balance  struck  in  the 
same  way  as  would  be  done  in  a  pri- 
Tate  ooncem.  I  doubted  whether  such 
a  system  would  not  lead  to  confusion ;  but 
as  the  Board  of  Admiralty  were  anxious  to 
meet  the  wishes  of  many  Members  of  the 
House  of  Commons,  we  tried  to  do  what  was 
desired.  It  was  necessary  to  take  all  the 
expenditure  of  eoch  dockyard  and  to  ap- 
portion it  amongst  the  different  vessels  built 
or  repaired  there.  At  Portsmouth  the 
expenditure  on  lectures  and  schools  and  a 
necessarily  expensive  police  ran  up  the 
expense  enormously,  and  when  the  accounts 
were  placed  before  the  House  of  Commons 
the  remark  was  made — **  Look  at  the 
enormous  sums  which  your  ships  cost !  ** 
and  it  was  alleged  that  ships  built  at 
Portsmouth  cost  a  great  deal  more  than 
they  did  in  private  yards.  But  was  it 
fair  to  compare  the  expenses  of  public  with 
those  of  private  establishments  of  this 
kind?  It  was  not* possible  to  institute 
such  a  comparison  without  prejudicing  the 
former.  Ilie  object  of  our  national  dock- 
yards is  not  merely  to  build  ships  quickly 
and  cheaply,  but  to  have  great  resources 
for  their  repair  in  time  of  war.  To 
ensure  that,  you  must  have  a  large  supply 
of  machinery,  a  good  deal  of  which  wiU 
in  time  of  peace  be  idle,  and  the  idleness 
of  which  will  prevent  the  manufacture 
being  carried  on  economically.  We  were 
constantly  told  in  186^  that  we  ought  to 
copy  commercial  men,  who  managed  their 
affairs  much  better  than  we  did  ;  and  one 
distinguished  Member  of  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, Sir  Morton  Feto,  said,  **  Look  at  my 
firm ;  we  have  larger  stores  than  the  Admi- 
ralty. We  have  £17,000,000  dispersed  all 
over  the  world,  but  we  toko  stock  constantly, 
and  our  accounts  cause  us  no  difficulty." 
I  do  not  know  whether  the  public  would 
now  repeat  the  advice  which  was  then  so 
frequently  offered  by  the  newspapers,  more 
especially  whether  they  would  set  up  the 
example  of  Peto  and  Co.  These  were 
not  the  onl^  subjects  of  accusation  against 
us.  Considering  the  smallness  of  the 
amount  involved,  a  great  deal  has  been 
said  respecting  the  iron  ballast  which  has 
been  used  to  pave  some  portions  of  the 
dockyards.  During  the  last  twenty  years 
a  quantity  of  iron  ballast  has  been  from 

time  to  time  taken  out  of  sailing  ships, 
and,  OS  it  was  not  required  in  steamers, 
the  weight  of  whose  engines  obviated  the 
nccessify  for  ballast,  it  was  piled  up  in 
various  parts  of  the  yards,  where  it  occa* 
sioncd  a  good  deal  of  inconvenience.    At 
Chatham  a  little  of  it  was  sold,  but  the 
purchaser  afterwards  found  that  it  would 
not  answer  his  purpose,  and  declined  to 
take  any  more,  and  a  similar  attempt  to 
dispose  of  it  at  Plymouth  entirely  failed. 
Long  before  I  came  into  the  Admiralty  a 
quantity  of  this  ballast  had  been  used  for 
paving*  the  yards,  and  finding  the  piles  of 
iron  continually  in  the  way,  after  vainly 
endeavouring  to  sell  it,  we  continued  to 
use  it  for  paving  as  it  wos  wanted.    There 
is  still,  however,  a  large  quantity  piled  up 
in  some  of  the  dockyards.     Since  it  has 
been  laid  down  it  has  proved  of  great 
service  in  facilitating  the  heavy  traffic  of 
the  yards.     It  has,  I  hear,  now  turned 
out  to  be  veiy  valuable  in  a  commer- 
cial point  of  view,  and  has  been  sold  for 
an  enormous  sum.     I  am  very  glad  to 
hear  that  such  is  the  case,  and  all  l£at  has 
to  be  done  is  to  take  it  up.    I  myself  did 
not  know  how  to  sell  it.     Perhaps  I  did 
not  know  how  to  advertise  it.    Now,  how- 
ever, it  had  been  admirably  advertised; 
for  when  you  want  anything  advertised 
you  can  find  no  better  place  in  the  world 
than  the  House  of  Commons  in  which  to 
advertise  it.     I  may  remind  the  present 
Government  that  there  are  a  number  of  old- 
fashioned  cannon  balls  at  Woolwich,  which 
they  might  do  well  to  advertise  also,  as,  if 
old  cast  iron  be  so  valuable,  they  would  pro- 
bably bring  in  a  good  round  sum.  These  are 
samples  of  the  accusations  that  have  been 
made  against  the  late  Admiralty.    I  should 
have  no  fear  of  submitting  their  proceed- 
ings to  the  judgment  of  any  Committee 
whatever,  whether  as  regards  the  men  or 
the  building  and  repairing  of  ships.    With 
regard  to  the  subject  of  manning  the  navy, 
I  may  inform  your  Lordships  that  when 
the  noble  Earl  (the  Earl  of  Derby)  was 
last  in  Office,  a  Commission,  of  which  Lord 
[Jardwicko  was  Chairman,  was  appointed 
to  take  this  question  into  consideration. 
When  wo  succeeded  to  Office,  the  Board  of 
Admiralty  adopted  the  Report  of   that 
Commission,  and  dealt  with  many  of  its 
recommendations.     We  established  train- 
ing ships  for  boys,  and  improved  in  many 
t^ays  the  condition  of   the  seamen,  in 
accordance  with  the  recommendations  con* 
tained  in  that  Beport,  and  our  measures 
were  attended  with  great  success.    We 




Moiimfor  Sdurm* 


had  no  difficulty  in  getting  boys  for  the 
navy.  It  was  said,  why  did  we  not  take 
the  pickpockets  and  idle  boys  off  the  streets 
of  I^ndon  and  educate  them  for  the  navy 
— it  was  said  they  would  make  admirable 
sailors.  Why,  we  did  not  want  them. 
We  had  no  difficulty  in  getting  well- 
behaved  lads  who  were  educated  for  the 
purpose,  and  as  for  men,  thanks  to  the 
oontinuance-service  men  and  the  lads  for 
the  training  ships,  our  ships  for  the  last 
four  years  when  they  have  been  commis* 
sioned  have  never  had  to  wait  for  men. 
The  training  ships  were  established  on 
a  good  system,  tiie  receiving  ships  were 
also  very  much  improved,  and  the  men 
on  returning  from  leave  went  on  board 
and  remained  there  till  they  are  wanted 
again.  Of  course,  all  this  occasioned  con- 
siderable expense,  for  the  comforts  of  the 
men  were  increased.  Then,  as  to  the 
Reserve,  we  were  told  it  was  most  im- 
portant tbat  such  a  body  should  be  formed, 
and  especially  with  a  view  to  getting  up 
a  friendly  feeling  between  the  Mercantile 
Marine  and  the  Boyal  Navy.  We  estab- 
lished the  Eeserve.  This  Eeserve  now  con- 
tains 16,000  men,  and  the  result  certainly 
has  been  the  creation  of  a  very  friendly 
feeling  between  the  Mercantile  Marine 
and  the  Royal  Navy.  Indeed,  I  believe  that 
the  good  understanding  between  them  was 
never  better  than  at  the  present  moment. 
In  this  respect  we  only  carried  into  effect 
the  recommendations  of  the  Commission, 
and  we  carried  out  those  recommenda- 
tions as  far  as  we  could.  We  did  not 
carry  them  all  out,  because  that  would 
have  involved  very  considerable  expense  ; 
and,  considering  that  we  were  spending 
£5,000,000  or  £6,000,000  annually  upon 
Uie  men  for  the  navy  and  the  Reserve, 
we  did  not  think  it  advisable  to  go  into 
further  expense  on  that  head.  Then, 
as  to  docks  and  basins,  we  thought  it 
quite  necessary  that  increased  docks  and 
basins  should  be  formed,  and  we  added 
very  considerably  to  our  dock  accommoda- 
tion. When  we  came  into  Office  there  was 
no  dock  capable  of  receiving  the  Warrior, 
We  enlarged  one  of  the  docks  at  Ports- 
mouth, so  as  to  fit  it  for  the  accommodation 
of  that  vessel.  We  improved  and  enlarged 
other  docks  both  there,  at  Plymouth,  and  at 
other  ports,  and  prepared  a  plan  for  the  con- 
struction of  new  docks  at  Chatham  and  at 
Portsmouth,  the  carrying  out  of  which 
would  involve  the  expenditure  of  a  very 
couMderable  sum  of  money.  I  had  myself 
seen  what  had  been  done  by  France  at 

Toulon,  by  Italy,  and  by  other  Powers; 
and  I  was  of  opinion  that  we  ought  to  lose 
no  time  in  adding  to  our  dock  and  basia 
accommodation— an  opinion  which  was 
concurred  in  by  a  Committee  of  the  House 
of  Commons,  which  approved  the  plans 
submitted  to  it  b^  the  Board.  Therefore* 
my  Lords,  I  think  that  as  regards  men, 
and  docks  and  basins,  we  did  aU  that  we 
ought  to  have  done  under  the  circum- 
stances. It  would  have  been  unreasonable 
to  go  further,  because  the  expenditure  of 
those  years  was  very  large.  We  were 
obliged  to  increase  our  Estimates  to  meet 
the  demands  of  the  China  war,  and 
when  we  are  carrying  on  a  war  at  a  di8« 
tance  of  15,000  miles  it  is  desirable  te 
place  such  a  force  in  the  hands  of  the 
Commander-in-Chief  as  shall  enable  him 
to  bring  that  war  to  a  close.  That  is  the 
best  economy,  and  we  succeeded  in  it. 
I  believe  the  great  force  we  had  in  China 
was  the  means  of  bringing  that  war  so 
speedily  to  a  termination,  and  convinced 
the  Chinese  of  the  futility  of  any  longer 
continuing  the  struggle  against  England 
and  France.  From  1860  till  last  year  we 
have  gone  on  somewhat  reducing  our  Es- 
timates. For  my  own  part,  I  never  de- 
sired to  take  a  larger  sum  on  the  annual 
Estimates  than  necessary  for  the  mainte- 
nance of  such  a  force  and  for  the  con- 
struction of  such  vessels  as  were  required 
for  immediate  service.  While  the  navy 
is  in  a  state  of  transition,  I  adhere  to 
that  opinion.  At  the  same  time,  I  am 
ready  to  admit  that  on  this  subject  yoa 
must  deal  with  matters  as  they  are  at  the 
time,  and  as  foreign  politics  may  appear 
to  require.  That  is  a  question  for  the 
Cabinet  and  not  ftfr  the  Admiralty.  What 
the  Board  of  Admiralty  has  to  do  is  to 
maintain  such  a  force  as  would  be  sufficient 
for  the  purposes  required.  In  regard  to 
the  future,  I  do  not  expect  there  will  be 
any  great  reduction  in  the  Estimates  un- 
less there  b  a  reduction  of  force.  I  caa 
see  no  means  of  making  a  great  reduction 
of  expense  without  reducing  the  number 
of  men,  and  as  it  is  generally  admitted 
that  we  must  have  a  large  fleet  I  do  not 
imagine  there  will  be  any  great  reduction 
in  tiie  number  of  men.  With  respect  to 
guns,  I  hope  our  three  heavy  guns  of  6 
tons,  9  tons,  and  12  tons  weight  will 
prove  useful  and  serviceable  weapons 
wherewith  to  arm  our  vessels  of  war. 
These,  my  Lords,  are  the  grounds  on 
which  I  defend  the  policy  which  the  late 

Board  of  Admiralty  follow^*    I  think  w^ 


Royal  JSTavy'^ 

{ FEBRirABT  8, 1 867 1        Wdhn  for  Seiums.        1 80 

wont  as  ikr  in  Bhipbnilding  as  wo  were 
entitled  to  do,  and  as  to  the  position  of 
the  men  and  the  general  condition  of  the 
navy,  we  improved  both ;  although,  like 
all  human  institutions,  the  navy  is,  no 
doubt,  capable  of  still  further  improve- 
ment. I  have  not  said  one  word  on  the 
patronage  of  the  Admiralty,  because  no 
appointments  made  by  me  have  been 
ever  attacked.  There  was  one  appoint- 
ment, indeed,  to  which  objection  was 
made;  that  was  the  appointment  of  Mr. 
Reed  as  Chief  Constructor  of  the  Navy. 
That  appointment,  of  which  I  am  ready  to 
undertake  the  full  responsibility,  I  made 
under  circumstances  that  rendered  it  ab- 
solutely necessary.  It  was  necessary  to 
build  vessels  plated  round  the  water*line, 
and  capable  of  carrying  very  heavy  arma- 
ments; and  we  asked  the  department  of 
the  Controller  to  produce  lines  for  certain 
vessels  with  proper  flotation;  but  they 
could  only  produce  them  400  feet  long. 
I  was  convinced  that  there  must  be  means 
of  obtaining  shorter  vessels  with  the  ne- 
cessary flotation,  and  I  therefore  resolved 
to  bring  in  a  new  person,  and  charge  him 
with  their  construction.  I  afterwards  re- 
ceived from  some  of  the  best  authorities 
on  the  subject  of  iron  construction  a 
roport  in  which  they  expressed  their  ap- 
proval .of  the  skill  and  ability  with  which 
on  iron  vessel  had  been  put  together 
in  one  of  our  dockyards.  So  far  I  am 
justified  in  the  appomtment  of  Mr.  Reed, 
and  I  hope  that  the  present  Board  of 
Admiralty  may  be  equally  fortunate  in 
any  appointment  they  may  make.  With- 
out detaining  your  Lordships  further,  I 
shall  now  move  that  there  be  laid  before 
this  House— 

"  Reiorn  of  the  Number  of  Ships  added  to  the 
RojaI  Nayy  bj  building  or  purohate,  stating  the 
Tonnage  of  eaeh  Vessel,  from  the  Year  1860  to 
1865  indosiTe.'*— (  2^  l>tUee  of  SamerHU) 

Tub  Earl  op  DERBY :  My  Lords-— 
Considering  the  many  observations  whieh 
have  been  made  in  certain  quarters  on  the 
naval  administration  of  the  noble  Duke,  I 
cannot  be  at  all  surprised  that  he  desires  to 
take  the  earliest  opportunity  of  bringing 
before  your  Lordships  the  state  of  the  navy, 
and  submitting  to  your  Lordships  an  ab- 
stract, at  leasti  of  a  certain  blue-covered 
|Amphlet — with  which  I  believe  the  noble 
Duke  to  be  tolerably  familiar — written  in 
vindication  of  the  policy  which  the  noble 
Duke  pursued  at  the  Admiralty.  Certainly, 
my  Lords,  I  have  no  cause  to  complain  of 
flie  oonrse  which  the  noble  Duke  has  taken 

yOIi.  CU^XXY.    [tbibp  seizes.] 

in  the  vindication-^ in  many  respects  unne* 
ceasary  vindication— of  his  administration 
of  the  navy,  still  less  so  because,  in  vindi- 
cating his  own  economical  arrangements 
with  regard  to  the  navy,  he  has  laid  the 
ground  for  future  vindication  of  his  sue* 
cesBors  against  any  attack  of  an  excess  of 
expenditure  arising  from  circumstances 
and  the  progress  of  events  such  as  the 
noble  Duke  has  detailed  to  your  Lordships. 
My  Lords,  I  regret  the  less  my  inability 
to  follow  the  noble  Duke  through  the 
elaborate  details  into  which  he  has  en- 
tered, because  I  am  very  far  from  sharing 
in  the  condemnation  which  has  been  passed 
very  freely  on  many  portions  of  the  noble 
Duke's  administration.  On  the  contrary, 
I  always  believed  that  the  noble  Duke 
was,  in  the  administration  of  his  office,  an 
active,  industrious,  energetic  Minister.  I 
believe,  moreover,  that  the  noble  Duke 
brought  to  the  administration  of  his  office 
a  thorough  and  entire  honesty  of  intention 
and  purpose;  and  I  should  be  the  last  man 
to  deny  that  during  the  course  of  the  noble 
Duke's  seven  years'  administration  there 
were  many  improvements  introduced  into 
the  system  of  the  navy — improvements  of 
which  the  more  merit  belongs  to  him,  be- 
cause during  the  whole  of  that  period,  as 
regards  ships  and  guns,  the  service  was  in 
course  of  transition,  which  rendered  it 
more  difficult  for  him  to  deal  with  tho 
subject ;  and  I  should  not  have  thought  it 
necessary  to  trouble  your  Lordships  with 
any  observations  if  it  had  not  been  for  a 
single  remark  the  noble  Duke  made  at  the 
commencement  of  his  observations,  in 
which  he  referred  to  a  speech  made  by  a 
right  hon.  Friend  of  mine,  the  present 
First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty  (Sir  Joha 
Pakington),  very  soon  after  he  entered  on 
office,  with  regard  to  the  state  of  the 
Navy  Keserve.  I  am  sure  the  noble 
Duke  will  do  my  right  hon.  Friend  the 
justice  to  say  that  during  the  whole  of  his 
administration  he  never  met  from  him 
with  any  factious  opposition,  or  anything 
but  a  cordial  desire  to  support  the  mea* 
sures  which  he  introduced  for  the  benefit 
of  the  navy,  and  approval  of  the  expendi- 
ture which  they  rendered  necessary.  Very 
shortly  after  my  right  hon.  Friend  suc- 
ceeded to  the  office  of  First  Lord  of  tho 
Admiralty  a  question  was  asked  in  the 
House  of  Commons  as  to  the  state  of  the 
Navy  Reserve ;  and  my  right  hon.  Friend 
was  oblig^  to  say,  in  answer,  that  he 
regretted  to  *state  that  he  did  not  find  the 
Navy  Beserve  in  A  satisfbotory  condition* 




MoHmfmr  BHurm. 

or,  indeed,  in  sttch  a  ttate  as  he  had  a  right 
to  find  them — so  much  so,  that  the  Admi- 
ralty had  a  difficulty  in  finding  relief  for  the 
ships  that  return  from  foreign  service.  If  my 
right  hon.  Friend  wanted  any  justification 
for  the  statement  it  is  to  be  found  in  the 
Eeport,  with  which  the  noble  Duke  must 
be  more  &miliar  than  most  of  your  Lord- 
ships. The  Report  is  dated  February, 
1866;  and  upon  this  very  point  of  the 
insufficiency  of  the  Besenre  the  Beport 

**  The  lame  neeeetity  for  emplojing  small  Tes« 
tela  woald,  I  apprehend,  exist  in  a  fature  war,  and 
in  peace  time  they  are  indispensable.  And  how 
do  we  stand  ?  In  the  last  two  years  there  hare  been 
lost  to  the  serrioe— paddle-steamers,  thirty ;  serew- 
■teamers,  twenty-two ;  and  in  the  same  period  fifty- 
one  gnnboats  haye  been  removed  from  the  naTy. 
To  replaee  these  a  Tery  lew  small  Tossels,  already 
on  the  stooks,  are  being  completed,  and  seven  of  the 
Amaiim  class  are  building.  In  the  meantime, 
onr  reserve  is  inadequate  to  supply  the  ordinary 
relielii  on  foreign  stations,  and  should  an  extra 
Tsssel  be  anywhere  required  we  have  not  one  dis- 

The  Amaton^  as  your  Lordships  will  re- 
oollecl^  is  the  unfortunate  yessel  which 
has  since  been  destroyed  by  accident 
That  is  the  Report,  not  of  a  hostile  Com- 
mittee, of  the  noble  Duke's  first  Naral 
Lord  of  the  Admiralty,  Sir  Frederick  Grey, 
at  the  commencement  of  the  Session  of 
1866,  Consequently,  my  right  hon.  Friend 
the  present  First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty 
was  obliged  to  say,  in  answer  to  a  Quea- 
'tion  put  to  him  in  the  House  of  Commons, 
and  not  bringing  the  matter  forwaid  in 
the  way  of  accusation,  that  the  state  of 
the  Reserre  was  not  satisfactory,  for,  ac- 
cording to  the  language  of  a  member  of 
the  preoeding  Board  of  Admiralty,  the  Re- 
serve was  not  sufficient  for  the  ordinary 
reliefs  on  foreign  stations,  and  if  one  extra 
vessel  were  required,  there  was  not  one 
disposable.  My  right  hon.  Friend  did  not 
put  this  forwaid  as  a  charge  against  the 
noble  Duke ;  but  the  Report  I  have  re- 
ferred to  is  a  complete  vindication  of  the 
statement  which  my  right  hon.  Friend 
could  not  but  make  in  giving  a  plain  and 
honest  answer  to  the  Question  put  to  him. 
I  need  not  say  I  have  no  objection  to 
furnish  the  noUe  Duke  with  the  Returns 
he  asks  for,  but  I  would  suggest  to  him 
that  there  should  be  some  slight  alteration 
in  the  form  of  the  Return.  The  noble 
Duke,  in  the  latter  part  of  his  speech, 
said  he  wished  lor  a  Return  of  the  num- 
ber of  ships  added  to  the  navy,  by  building 
or  purchase,  in  each  year  from  1860  to 
1866,  and  I  propose  to  insert  the  words 

J^  Farl  of  J)ert9 

''in  each  year"  in  the  Motion.    I  hope, 
too,  that  the  noble  Duke  will  carry  tHe 
Return  down  to  1866;  for,  though   tho 
noble  Duke  is  not  responsible  for  the  last 
half  year  of  1859,  as  the  Estimates  were 
then  of  his  predecessors,  he  is  reaponsiblo 
for  the  whole  of  1866,  for  which  the  Esti* 
mates  were  brought  forward  by  hia  OoTem- 
ment    The  Return  in  that  form  will  givo 
a  complete  detail  of  the  whole  namber 
added  in  each  year,  and  I  think  this  altera* 
tion  will  be  necessary  in  order  to  make  it  a 
complete  Return  of  the  state  of  the  navy, 
as  the  noble  Duke  found  it,  and  left  It. 
It  is  not  sufficient  to  make  a  Retom  of 
the  additions  made   to  the  navy  during: 
that  period ;  we  ought  to  have  a  oorre- 
spending  Return  of  tho  various  vessels 
withdrawn,  sold,  lost,  or  otherwise  dis- 
posed of  within  the  same  period.     That 
will  give  exactly  what  the  noble  Duke 
requires.    The  reason  whv  I  lay  stress  on 
obtaining  accounts  of  each  separate  year 
is  because  I    find   an  extraordinary  dis- 
crapancy  in  the  amounts  of  tlie  Estimates 
for  the  yean  in  question.    I  confine  my 
observations  entirely  to  the  building  of 
vessels  by  contract,  and  I  find  that  in 
the  fint  five  yean  of  the  noble  Duke's 
administration  of  the  naty,  very  large 
sums  were  taken ;    but  it  is  a  matter 
open  to  question  whether  in  the  last  two 
yean  out  of  the  seven  of  the  noble  Duke's 
administration,  sufficient  pains  were  taken 
by  the  Admiralty  to  keep  up  the  stock  of 
vessels  of  a  description  fitted  for  war.  The 
variation  in  the  Estimates  is  remarkable. 
For  1860-1  the  amount  for  building  by 
contract  was  £}, 478,000;  for  1861-2  it 
was    £1,621,000;     for    1862-3    it  was 
£1,470,000;  for  1863-4  it  was  £867,000; 
for  1864-5  it  was  £882,000;  for  18656 
it  was  £564,000;  and  for  1867  it  was 
only  £318,000.    In  these  two  last  yean 
the  Estimates  fall  very  far  below  the  Es- 
timates for  building  in  the  previous  yean. 
In  1865-6  the  Estimate  for  an  iron-clad 
vessel  was  £120,000,  but  no  work  was 
done  in  that  respecti  and  the  money  was 
ratumed  to  the  Exchequer;  and  out  of 
the  Estimate  of  £318,000  taken  in  the 
last  year  only  £67,000  wen  expended 
for  new  ships.     All  this  time  foreign 
countries,    and   especially  France,  were 
rapidly  increasing  their  navies,  and  ve 
are  told  in  the  Report  I  have  quoted  that 
during  the  same  period  no  less  than  fifty- 
two  steamen  and  fifty-one  gunboats  were 
lost  to  the  service.    I  think,  therefore,  it 
is  important  to  see  how  £eur  the  Estimatei 


JbyaZiPbvy— > 

(rBBBVABT  8,  1867}        Motion  for  Sdums.        184 

of  the  two  last  yean  were  sufficient  to 
supply  the  deficiencies  occasioned  by  the 
ordinary  wear  and  tear  of  the  service. 
The  noble  Duke  says  that  the  Estimates 
of  the  navy  depend  on  the  number  of  men, 
and  that  is  true  to  a  great  extent.  The 
noble  Duke  added  that  the  Estimates  do  not 
depend  on  the  First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty ; 
and  I  can  readily  imagine  that  the  noble 
Duke  found  that  during  the  last  years  of 
his  administration  a  very  considerable  dif- 
ference of  opinion  prevailed  between  the 
Treasury  and  the  Board  of  Admiralty 
with  respect  to  the  amount  necessary  to 
provide  for  keeping  up  the  strength  of  the 
navy ;  but  I  should  think  there  can  be  no 
doubt  as  to  the  desirableness  of  replacing 
the  large  number  of  ships  that  have  been 
withdrawn.  Having  made  these  observa- 
tions in  vindication  of  my  right  hon. 
Friend  against  any  supposition  that  he 
made  a  charge  against  the  noble  Duke, 
I  can  only  say  that  I  have  listened  with 
great  satisfaction  to  the  observations  of 
the  noble  Duke,  and  have  not  the  slightest 
objection  to  furnish  the  Keturns  in  the 
form  I  have  suggested — indeed,  I  think 
they  will  be  of  very  great  service. 

Thb  DuxiE  07  SOMERSET :  I  have  no 
objection  to  the  addition  suggested  by  the 
noble  Earl  in  regard  to  the  vessels  which 
have  been  done  away  with  and  disposed  of 
in  various  ways ;  but  I  think  it  is  desirable 
to  state  the  class  to  which  they  belonged, 
because  a  mere  list  of  numbers,  without 
stating  the  character  of  the  ships  with- 
drawn, would  be  perfectly  useless.  I 
cannot  suppose  for  a  moment  that  the 
noble  Earl  will  argue  in  favour  of  restor- 
ing the  wooden  line-of-battle  ships  with- 
drawn in  1859.  We  had  no  iron-clad 
fleet  before  that  time,  end  therefore  no 
comparison  of  numbers  can  afford  a  fair 
estimate  of  the  strength  of  the  navy  at 
the  two  different  periods.  I  presume,  also, 
that  notice  will  be  taken,  in  reference  to 
the  expenditure  referred  to,  of  the  vessels 
that  have  been  built  by  contract  For  my 
part,  I  have  latterly  wished,  whenever  an 
entirely  new  model  is  adopted,  that  die 
vessel  should  be  constructed  in  a  Go- 
vernment dockyard,  for  the  simple  reason 
that  when  a  vessel  is  built  by  contract, 
we  are  absolutely  bound  by  the  specifica- 
tions, and  in  the  event  of  any  alteration 
being  required  during  the  building,  it  is 
always  attended  not  only  with  great  ex- 
pense, but  with  no  end  of  delay.  Within 
the  last  two  jrears  a  heavy  expense  has 
been  incnired  in  makin|;  the  small  changes 

and  improvements  in  the  class  of  vessels 
referred  to  by  the  noble  Earl. 

The  Eabl  or  DEEBY  :  I  agree  with  the 
noble  Duke  that*a  mere  Return  of  numbers 
will  not  give  the  required  information 
unless  the  different  classes  of  ships  are 
specified.  I  also  think  that  the  Returns 
should  show  as  fully  as  possible  not  only 
the  vessels  which  have  been  sold  and  other* 
wise  lost  in  the  service,  but  the  altera- 
tions that  have  been  made  in  the  different 
classes  of  vessels.  I  hope  tbe  noble  Duke 
will  not  think  that  I  would  object  to  the 
disposing  of  old  and  obsolete  vessels.  On 
the  contrary,  I  am  of  opinion  that  as  soon 
as  it  becomes  manifest  that  a  ship  is  no 
longer  serviceable,  it  should  be  at  once 
referred  to  an  inspector,  so  as  not  to  incur 
any  additional  or  unnecessary  expense  in 
maintaining  a  vessel  that  is  no  longer 

Earl  GREY  said,  the  last  observation 
made  by  the  noble  Earl  (the  Earl  of  Derby) 
induced  him  to  express  a  hope  that  the 
construction  of  the  navy  was  a  matter  in 
which  the  Government  would  not  proceed 
too  fast.  Their  Lordships  must  remember 
that  in  the  Queen's  Speech  of  1859,  Parlia- 
ment was  informed  that  a  large  Vote  would 
be  asked  (or  the  re>construction  of  the  navy. 
That  Vote  was  explained  to  be  required 
in  consequence  of  our  wooden  steam-ships 
of  the  line  having  fallen  much  below 
the  required  state  of  efficiency.  In  the 
debate  that  followed  he  (Earl  Grey)  ven- 
tured to  protest  against  the  proposed  outlay 
at  the  time.  He  stated  that  it  was  already 
known  that  ships  of  the  line  built  upon  the 
svstem  then  in  use  would  soon  turn  out 
to  be  useless  for  all  the  purposes  of  war. 
His  remonstrance,  however,  was  not  lis- 
tened to,  and  a  considerable  number  of 
new  ships  were  laid  down  at  a  great  ex- 
pense. Some  of  them,  he  believed,  had 
never  been  completed  at  aU,  and  some 
had  been  finished  in  a  very  different  way 
from  what  was  originally  designed,  and  at 
an  increased  expense.  The  whole  subject 
of  naval  construction  was  at  present  in 
such  a  state  of  transition^there  was  such 
a  strong  certainty  that  the  ships  of  this 
year  would  not  be  the  ships  of  the  next 
five,  or,  perhaps,  even  of  the  next  two 
years — that  he  held  it  to  be  most  inexpe- 
dient to  expend  large  sums  of  public  money 
in  building  ships  which  they  could  not  be 
assured  would  meet  the  exigencies  of  war 
wh^n  the  time  for  their  service  really  ar- 
rived. He  very  much  doubted — and  his 
doubts  were  shared  by  persons  of  toi  more 


135        Propoied  li-adei  UhiOM         (LOBSS)        Demonstration  on  Monday.      136 

knowledge  than  he  could  pretend  to,  whose 
attention  had  heen  carefully  directed  to 
the  subject —whether  our  system  of  build- 
ing iron-clads  would,  in  the  end,  turn  out 
to  be  a  wise  policy.  Their  Lordships 
were  very  well  aware  what  was  the  cus- 
tom in  former  days  with  regard  to  cavalry. 
Both  men  and  horses  were  so  orerloaded 
with  defensive  armour  that  they  were  al- 
most safe  from  the  blows  of  an  enemy — 
they  were  also  almost  as  unable  to  injure 
him.  By  degrees  this  was  seen  to  be  a 
bad  system ;  armour  fell  into  disuse ;  and 
for  knights  so  carefully  protected  that 
they  had  lost  the  power  of  offence,  it  was 
found  advisable  to  substitute  a  swift  and 
active  cavalry.  There  seemed  to  be  no 
small  reason  for  believing  that  we  might 
be  falling  into  a  similar  mistake  by  over- 
weighting our  vessels  with  armour  and 
80  crippling  their  movements.  Some  of 
our  ablest  men  maintained  that  such  was 
the  progress  of  science  that  very  soon  no 
ship  we  might  be  able  to  build  would  be 
able  to  withstand  the  artillery  brought 
into  play,  and  that  it  would,  therefore,  be 
expedient   to   proceed   upon  a  different 

rnu  He  was  much  inclined  to  believe 
instead  of  striving  at  an  enormous 
cost  to  build  iron-plated  yessels  able  to 
resist  the  daily  increasing  power  of  artil- 
lery, it  might  prove  to  be  better  to  build 
vessels  of  very  great  speed,  carrying  one 
or  two  of  the  most  powerful  guns,  and 
trust  to  their  not  being  hit  to  their  power 
of  destroying  the  enemy,  rather  than  their 
being  able  to  resist  their  projectileB.  This 
principle,  he  thought,  might  very  probably 
turn  out  to  be  the  correct  one  as  regarded 
the  construction  of  the  navy.  At  all 
events  he  was  sure,  seeing  they  were  as 
yet  ignorant  of  what  might  be  the  im- 
provements and  discoveries  made  in  the 
future  in  regard  to  naval  science,  that  it 
would  be  neither  wise  nor  prudent  to 
expend  too  large  sums  of  money  in  pro- 
ducing armour- plated  ships  beyond  what 
were  immediately  wanted  according  to 
our  present  lights.  Tears  ago  —  so  far 
back  as  the  administration  of  Lord  Mel- 
bourne—he was  very  much  opposed  to 
building  ships  of  the  line  without  steam 
power,  being  convinced  that  although  the 
means  then  known  of  applying  steam  to 
the  purposes  of  war  were  still  so  defective, 
it  was  certain  that  the  progress  of  science 
would  discover  some  means  of  using  this 
most  powerful  agent  in  ships  of  war,  and 
that  therefore  ships  without  it  would  be- 
come  useless.     But  his  objections  were 

Earl  Orojf 

overruled.  It  was  urged  that  we  were  too 
weak  as  compared  to  other  Powers  in  line- 
of-battle  ships,  and  that  more  must  be 
built.  Large  sums  were  accordingly  ap- 
plied in  building  ships  of  that  kind, 
which  had  proved,  as  he  had  ventured 
to  predict,  utterly  useless.  When  this 
became  evident,  the  cry  was  that  we  must 
lose  no  time  in  building  a  large  fleet  of 
screw  ships  of  the  line  to  take  the  place 
of  those  that  had  become  obsolete.  Am 
he  had  already  mentioned,  this  was  for- 
mally recommended  to  Parliament  in  the 
Speech  from  the  Throne  in  the  year  1859, 
when  he  again  opposed  this  policy,  point- 
ing out  that  it  was  already  evident  that 
the  use  of  shells  must  soon  make  the  use 
of  these  large  wooden  ships  impossible 
without  extreme  danger.  In  spite  of  his  op- 
position, however,  large  sums  of  inoney— 
hundreds  of  thousands,  if  not  millions- 
had  been  spent  in  building  vessels  which, 
he  had  condemned,  and  which  were  now 
admitted  to  be  useless.  He  must  say  that 
the  responsibility  of  these  errors  rested  not 
with  the  Admiraltv,  not  even  with  the 
Government  that  might  be  in  power,  but 
with  the  House  of  Commons.  Whenever 
there  was  a  great  mistake  made  in  the 
administration,  it  generally  arose  from 
the  pressure  put  upon  the  Government  in 
the  House  of  Commons,  to  adopt  without 
due  consideration  some  measure  for  which, 
there  might  be  a  popular  cry  at  the  mo- 
ment, and  the  consequence  had  been  that 
there  had  been  a  great  waste  of  the  public 
money  upon  the  navy.  He  ventured  to 
say  that  if  their  Lordships  went  into  a 
careful  examination  of  the  money  that  had 
been  so  wasted  it  would  be  foand  that  a 
great  part  of  it  was  attributable  to  the 
House  of  Commons. 

Motion  amended  and  agreed  to. 

Ordered,  That  there  be  laid  before  this  Home 
Return  of  the  Number  of  Ships  added  to  the 
Rojal  Navy  by  building  or  purchase,  stating  the 
Tonnage  of  each  Vessel,  in  each  Tear  from  the 
Tear  1860  to  1860  inclnsiTe  : 

A  similar  Return  of  aU  Ships,  stating  their 
Desoripiion  and  Tonnage,  withdrawn  from  the 
Royal  Nary  by  Sale,  I^ss  at  Sea,  or  otherwise, 
during  the  same  respeotifeTears.--(7%tf  Duke  of 


Tms  Earl  of  DUDLEY,  in  rising  to 
ask  the  intention  of  the  Ooyemment  with 
respect  to  the  proposed  procession  of  mem* 

1S7    PmjfOB&d  Drad$$  Vhlon$     {Fkbsuabz  8, 1867)  D&Bionstnaian  an  McfnUiy.  138 

ben  of  trades  unions  throngh  dereral  of 
tho  most  crowded  thoroughfares  of  the 
metropolis  and  the  West  End  next  Monday, 
saidy  he  was  fnlly  aware  of  the  delicacy 
of  the  snbject  to  which  he  was  about  to 
address  himself;,  but  there  was  a  general 
feeling  that  such  processions  assembling 
and  taking  possession  of  the  principal 
streets  of  London,  for  the  purpose  of 
making  what  was  termed  a  demonsteation, 
was  an  evil  that  was  on  the  increase,  and 
if  allowed  to  go  on  would  assume  a  posi- 
tion to  defy  all  attempts  to  interfere  with 
them,  and  therefore  it  was  that  he  had 
deemed  it  his  duty  to  bring  the  matter 
under  the  notice  of  the  House;  'and  he 
must  confess  that,  after  the  announcement 
which  had  be^n  made  by  Her  Majesty's 
Ministers  on  the  first  day  of  the  Session, 
he  had  hoped  that  those  who  took  the  most 
actire  part  in  promoting  the  intended 
demonstration  would  have  come  to  the 
conclusion  that  there  was  no  necessity  for 
making  it,  for  a  most  distinct  promise  had 
then  been  given  on  the  part  of  the  Qo- 
yemment  that  they  would  lose  no  time  in 
dealing  with  the  great  question  of  Eeform, 
which  was  undoubtedly  the  great  question 
of  the  day.  He  was,  under  these  circum- 
stances, greatly  grieved  to  find  that  the 
leaders  of  the  movement  should,  instead  of 
waiting  to  learn  what  course  Ministers 
might  take  on  the  question,  deem  it  neces- 
sary to  be  beforehand  with  them.  He 
deeply  regretted  that  there  should  be  any 
necessity  for  a  Member  of  their  Lordships' 
House  rising  for  the  purpose.  In  what  he 
was  about  to  say  with  regard  to  the  pro- 
posed trades  procession,  he  hoped  it  would 
be  distinctly  understood  that  he  had  no 
desire  whatever  to  say  a  single  word  which 
might  tend  to  irritate  the  public  mind; 
and  if  he  did  use  any  expression  of  such  a 
nature,  he  assured  their  Lordships  that  it 
would  only  be  used  in  mistake  and  not  from 
intention.  Indeed,  at  the  present  moment 
the  public  mind  was  quite  enough  excited 
upon  the  subject  without  anything  uttered 
in  Parliament  being  construed  into  a  ground 
of  farther  irritation.  He  could  look  upon 
the  proposed  meeting  and  procession  of 
Monday  next  in  no  other  ught  than  a 
monstrous  demonstration  of  the  trades 
unions  of  the  country.  He  would  be  the 
last  man  to  stand  up  in  their  Lordships' 
House  and  deny  the  right  of  the  people  to 
meet  and  discuss  any  political  grievances 
under  which  they  deemed  themselves  to 
be  suffering,  or  for  the  purpose  of  procuring 
a  fidr  representation  of  tiieir  opinions  in 

Parliament.  But  that  was  a  very  different 
thing  from  the  procession  with  which  we 
were  threatened  on  Monday  next,  which, 
under  pretence  of  meeting  in  the  Agricul- 
tural Hall,  at  Islington,  was  to  assemble 
in  Trafalgar  Square.  He  felt  that  the 
fair  and  open  discussion  of  political  sub- 
jects was  not  the  real  object  of  the  pro- 
posed meeting ;  for  no  one  could  fail  to  see 
that  at  such  a  meeting  no  discussion  in 
the  ordinary  sense  of  the  tei-m  could  take 
place,  but  that  it  was  held,  if  not  for  the 
express  purpose  of  intimidation,  at  least 
by  bringing  immense  multitudes  of  peo- 
ple to  a  central  place  in  the  metropolis, 
and  then  taking  a  circuitous  route  through 
all  the  most  frequented  streets  of  London, 
to  cause  such  a  demonstration  as  might 
influence  Parliament  in  its  deliberations 
on  the  question  of  Reform.  Suriely,  if 
those  persons  who  proposed  to  come  from 
the  north,  south,  east,  or  west  of  the 
metropolis,  and  congregate  in  the  neigh- 
bourhood of  Trafalgar  Square,  really 
wished  to  go  to  the  Agricultaral  Hall  at 
Islington,  for  the  purposo  of  discussing 
their  political  grievances,  there  was  no 
occasion  to  resort  in  the  first  place  to  a 
great  central  square,  from  which  the  start 
was  to  take  place.  He  understood  that 
measures  for  the  preservation  of  the  public 
peace  had  been  taken,  to  the  extent  at 
least  of  procuring  six  out  of  every  hundred 

fiersons  being  sworn  as  special  constables. 
The  Earl  of  Derby  intimated  dissent.] 
The  noble  Earl  shook  his  head ;  but  if  he 
were  incorrect  in  that  statement,  all  that  he 
could  Fay  was  that  he  was  sorry  that  there 
should  be  less  endeavour  on  the  part  of 
tho  promoters  of  the  meeting  to  preserve 
the  peace  than  he  gave  them  credit  for. 
Nobody  could  deny  that  the  passing  of 
such  a  procession  through  the  principal 
streets  in  a  circuitous  instead  of  in  a  direct 
line  was  designed  mainly  for  the  purpose 
of  producing  an  effect  on  the  clubs  and 
the  West  End  of  the  town;  and  he  re- 
minded their  Lordships  that  every  time 
such  a  procession  were  permitted,  it  be- 
came a  precedent  which  rendered  every 
similar  attempt  less  likely  to  be  resisted. 
He  thought  it  rather  unwise  that  the 
Department  of  the  Oovemment  which 
had  been  more  in  direct  communication 
with  the  leaders  of  this  proposed  demon* 
stration  than  had  usually  been  the  case  in 
any  similar  circumstances,  had  not  exer- 
cised their  powers  of  persuasion  more 
successfully  for  its  prevention,  and  thus 
rendered  it  unnecessary  to  call  the  atten^ 

139        JPr0po$ed  H^ada  Uni&nt         (LOBDS)        JDm&HiiraiimimUandaf,      140 

tion  of  Parliament  to  the  Bubject.  He 
knew  very  well  how  diffionlt  it  was  ia 
discussiDg  such  a  question  with  a  large 
body  of  men  to  say  that  such  a  course 
coold  not  be  permitted ;  but  ho  had  hoped, 
at  all  events,  that  the  counsel  which  the 
Goremment  seem  to  have  taken  with  the 
leaders  of  this  movement,  would  have 
enabled  them  to  have  pointed  out  the  loss 
and  inconvenience  which  must  result  to 
the  populace  who  happened  to  reside  in 
the  thoroughfares  which  were  chosen  as 
the  route  of  the  procession.  But  though 
these  meetings  might  be  permitted  now, 
the  matter  was,  after  all,  a  question  of 
degree ;  for  it  was  possible  that  they  might 
become  such  an  enofmous  grievance  that 
it  would  be  absolutely  necessary  to  put  a 
stop  to  them.  He  should  be  the  hut  per- 
son in  the  world  to  rise  for  the  purpose 
of  embarrassing  the  Government.  On  the 
contrary,  after  the  course  they  had  an- 
nounced with  reference  to  Beform,  and 
which,  he  thought,  was  the  only  course 
they  oould  have  parsued,  everybody  must 
have  wished  that  the  proposed  demonstra* 
tion  might  have  been  dropped ;  but  arrived 
as  they  were  now  within  a  few  hours  of 
the  meeting,  the  Government  must  have 
determined  upon  the  steps  they  would 
take;  and  there  could  be  no  want  of 
discretion,  therefore,  in  asking  them  to 
state,  for  the  information  of  Parliament, 
what  those  steps  were. 

Thb  Earl  of  DERBY :  My  Lords,  I 
can  assure  the  noble  Earl  that  no  apology 
was  required  from  him  for  asking  the 
question  which  he  has  just  put  to  me. 
There  can  be  no  doubt  that  this  question 
is  one  of  very  serious  importance ;  and  I 
can  assure  him,  also,  that  he  cannot  regret 
more  deeply  than  I  do  that  those  who 
have  the  conduct  of  the  vast  organization, 
and  on  which  they  have  expended  so  much 
pains  and  care  for  several  months  past, 
should  not  have  taken  a  more  correct  and 
a  sounder  view  of  the  duty  they  owe  to 
the  public  and  the  interests  of  the  country 
generally  than  to  persist  in  holding  a  pro* 
cession  which,  although  I  am  bound  to  say 
it  is  strictly  within  the  law,  yet  is  certainly , 
liable  to  produce,  and  must  produce,  very 
great  inconvenience,  and  perhaps,  also, 
acts  of  illegality.  But  the  noble  Earl 
(the  Earl  of  Dudley)  does  Her  Majesty's 
Government  too  much  honour  in  sup- 
posing that  their  powers  of  persuasion  are 
such  as  to  induce  these  gentlemen  to  forego 
the  advantage  of  being  allowed  to  display 
in  the  streets  their  immense  organiMtion, 

The  JEarl  of  Dudlei/ 

with  marshals  and  sub-marshals,  with 
stars,  scarves,  banners,  and  an  exhibition 
of  the  most  perfect  military  discipline. 
We  certainly  cannot  pretend  to  such  in- 
fluence with  the  leaders  of  this  movement 
as  to  have  persuaded  them,  in  deference  to 
any  opinions  of  ours,  or  to  any  measures 
which  we  are  likely  to  introduce  on  the 
subject  of  Reform,  to  desist  from  the 
course  on  which  they  have  long  deter- 
mined. Moreover,  my  Lords,  much  as  I 
deprecate  the  course  these  gentlemen  are 
pursidng,  I  entirely  believe  that  they  de- 
sire, as  for  as  they  can,  that  the  processioa 
may  be  perfectly  peaceable  and  orderly. 
But  the  noble  Earl  will  allow  me  to  Bay 
that  he  is  in  error  when  he  supposes  that 
a  certain  number  of  each  of  these  bodies 
are  to  be  sworn  in  as  special  constables. 
It  is  not  within  the  law  that  they  can  be 
sworn  in  as  special  oonstables;  for  no 
man  can  be  so  sworn  in  except  upon  infor- 
mation sworn  before  a  magistrate  to  the 
effect  that  the  person  who  swears  such 
information  believes  that  a  breach  of  the 
peace  is  imminent,  and  that,  in  order  to 
guard  against  such  breach  of  the  peace,  he 
tenders  his  services  to  preserve  the  peace. 
Now,  it  is  quite  clear  that  these  gentle- 
men, coming  forward  and  saying — I  be- 
lieve most  sincerely — that  they  are  acting 
with  the  most  peaceable  intentions,  could 
not  bo  expected  to  swear  that  the  assem- 
blage of  delegates  and  of  various  other 
bodies  which  they  are  organizing  will  be 
such  an  assemblage  as  endangers  the  pub- 
lic peace.  Not  but  that  I  think  breaches 
of  the  peace  will  be  committed,  though 
certainly  not  by  those  who  are  engaged  in 
the  procession ;  but  when,  in  the  heart  of 
a  crowded  metropolis,  processions  of,  it 
may  be,  40,000,  50,000,  60,000,  or  70,000 
men  gather  and  occupy  busy  thorough- 
fares for  a  considerable  portion  of  the  dlay, 
it  is  impossible  that  the  idle  and  vagabond 
dass  on  such  occasions  should  not  cause 
much  inconvenience  and  some  danger. 
And  I  would  have  the  gentlemen  who  un- 
dertake the  conduct  of  these  vast  proces- 
sions to  recollect  that  although  the  proces- 
sion itself  may  not  be  illegal,  yet  it  may 
become  illegal  through  the  circumstances 
attending  it ;  and  in  that  case  those  who 
so  recklessly  expose  the  metropolis  to 
danger  cannot  escape  from  the  responsi- 
bili^  they  thus  incur.  They  must,  and 
they  will,  be  held  personally  liable  for 
any  loss  to  property  or  to  person  which 
may  result  from  their  acts.  There  can  be 
no  doubt  that  tiie  proposed  meeting  will 

14t    Drop&sei  li-ad^  UnionM     [Febbuabt  8,  1667)  Demomtration  on  Mondajf.   143 

eave  Teiy  eooAderable  obstnietioii  of  the 
«rdiDaiy  traffic,  and  great  incenTenience — 
that  it  must  canee  great  loss  both  to  the 
operatiTea  themselyee,  irho  will  lose  a 
^s  mgesp  and  also  to  the  shopkeepers, 
and  ineonTenience  to  OTenrbody  to  an  in- 
esienlable  extent ; — and  aU  tar  what  ?  For 
the  parpose^  as  they  state,  of  making  a 
demonstration  in  favoar  of  Reform.    But 
'Sa  Majeaty'a  GoTemment,  as  the  noble 
Sari  says,  are  quite  prepared  to  deal  with 
ttnt  qoestiony  and  bring  it  forward  for  the 
eoosideration  of  Farliament.     And  here  I 
Bost  remark  that  demonstrations  of  this 
kind  are  little  calculated  to  promote  that 
calmneaa  with  which  so  grave  a  question 
ooght   to  be   submitted  to    Parliament. 
MoreoTer,  if  we  are  to  believe  the  asser- 
tions of  the  leaders  of  this  organization, 
the  mnltitadea  who  are  about  to  assemble 
in  this  way  are  to  meet  for  an  object  to 
which  I  will  not  say  tho  present  Govem- 
nent,  bat  to  which  no  Goyemment,  and 
BO  statesman  who  can  ever  be  called  upon 
to  conduct   the  affairs  of   this  country, 
would    ever    consent;    because    we    are 
told  that  that  which  alone  will   satisfy 
these  vast  assemblages  and  their  lenders 
is   ^e    adoption    of   manhood    suffrage 
and  vote  by  ballot  —  two  things  which, 
eombined,   would  absolutely  and  entirely 
OTothiow  the  Constitution  of  this  coun- 
tiy.    Wellp  what  encouragement  has  Far- 
hament  for  entering  upon  the  course  of 
ddiberating  and  considering  how  far  it 
should  extend  the  franchise  and  increase 
the  liberties  of  the  people  if  it  is  told, 
**  An  you  do  is  nothing — is  of  no  use  what- 
e?er.     Here  we  bring  together  a  demon- 
stration of  our  physical  strength  and  our 
numbersi  to  show  you,  the  Farliament, 
that  unless  you  do  tnat  which  we  know  it 
IB  impossible  you  can  ever  consent  to  do, 
all  your  labours  will  go  for  nothing — they 
will  produce  no  gratitude,  but  will  onl^ 
lead  to  fredi  demonstrations  and  ezhibi- 
tio&s  of  force,  until  we  obtain  that  which 
would  be  a  practical  revolution  in  this 
eountry  ?  "    My  Lords,  I  have  not  so  poor 
sn  opinion  of  the  House  of  Commons  as  to 
beiim  for  a  single  moment  that  any  de- 
monatiation  of  this  sort  will  intimidate 
them  or  lead  them  to  consent  to  extreme 
demands.     On  the  contrary,  I  only  hope 
it  may  not  have  the  opposite  effect  of  do- 
terring  them  from  fairly  and  candidly  con- 
ndering  the  merits  of  the  case,  and  that 
they  may  not  be  induced  to  refrain  from 
givmg  that  which  may  safely,  reasonably, 
aad  jnstlT  be  giveoy  owing  to  exhibitions 

of  physical  force  and  of  numbers  on  behalf 
of  that  which  is  wholly  alien  to  the  Con* 
stitution  and  the  spirit  of  the  country.  In 
regard  to  the  noble  EarPs  inquiry  as  to 
what  the  Government  are  going  to  do  in 
respect  to  the  proposed  procession,  it  is 
only  necessary  to  say  that  they  will  confine 
themselves  within  the  limits  of  the  law. 
We  have  carefully  considered  what  mea- 
sures it  might  be  in  our  power  to  take  to  put 
a  stop  to  this  demonstnition  and  interfere 
with  its  progress ;  and  we  are  informed  that 
this  procession,  however  mischievous,  in- 
jurious, and  liable  to  produce  loss  of  pro- 
perty, and  it  may  be  of  life,  is  not  in  itself 
illegal,  and  that  we  should  not  be  justified 
in  interfering  with  it  so  long  as  it  conducts 
itself  peaceably,  and  only  passes  quietly 
through  the  streets.  There  are  two  Acts 
of  Farliament  which  bear  on  this  subject. 
One  of  them,  passed  in  the  reign  of  Charles 
II.,  prohibits  any  persons,  under  a  penalty, 
from  attempting  to  present  petitions  to 
Farliament  in  greater  numbers  than  ten 
together.  There  is  another  Act  of  George 
III.,  to  which,  I  suppose,  the  noble  Earl 
referred,  in  respect  to  assemblages  within 
a  mile  of  Farliament.  It  provides  that  if 
any  persons  shall  assemble  within  a  mile 
of  Farliament  for  the  purpose  of  either 
passing  resolutions,  petitions,  or  remon* 
stranoes  with  regard  to  matters  concerning 
the  State,  in  that  case  the  assembly  shall 
be  an  illegal  assembly,  with  all  the  penal 
consequences  attaching  to  it  as  such.  But 
there  is  nothing  in  the  statute  to  say  that 
persons  shall  not  meet  within  a  mile  of 
Farliament  for  the  purpose  of  there  forming 
a  procession — not  to  come  down  to  Far- 
liament with  a  view  of  intimidating  it, 
but,  as  is  said  to  be  intended  in  this  in- 
stance, with  a  view  of  proceeding  exactly 
in  an  opposite  direction  —  to  Islington, 
there  to  hold  a  meeting  in  the  great  Agri- 
cultural Hall.  There  is  nothing  absolntely 
illegal  in  that.  The  duty  of  the  Govern- 
ment,  therefore,  must  in  this  case  be  con- 
fined to  taking  care  to  have  an  ample 
amount  of  force  ready  to  interfere,  if  ne- 
cessary, for  the  preservation  of  the  public 
peace,  or  for  its  restoration,  if  that  peace 
is  disturbed.  Further  than  that  it  is  not 
within  our  legal  competence  to  interpose. 
But  the  noble  Earl  said — and  it  is  a  point 
very  well  worth  consideration — that  the 
constant  repetition  of  these  processions  and 
demonstrations  may  render  it  necessary  to 
make  some  alteration  in  the  law.  I  trust 
that  nothing  of  the  kind  will  be  required, 
because  we  know  that  such  an  alteration 






of  the  laW|  howerer  just  or  neoeasary, 
would  meet  with  very  great  resistance, 
and  might  be  thought  an  undue  interfer- 
ence with  the  liberties  of  the  people— an 
interference  which  could  not  be  justified, 
except  by  a  general  feeling  on  the  part  of 
the  country,  that  these  demonstrations  had 
become  quite  intolerable,  and  a  source  of 
eyil  and  mischief  so  grave  as  to  render  the 
interposition  of  Parliament  imperatively 
reqidsite.  Therefore,  I  can  only  say  that, 
while  deprecating  the  holding  of  this  pro- 
cession, yet  finding  it  legal,  we  can  do 
nothing  except  provide  a  force  suflElcient 
for  the  preservation  of  the  peace.  We 
much  regret  the  course  about  to  be  pursued 
by  its  promoters,  and  we  think  it  one 
which  is  liable  to  lead  to  the  most  un- 
favourable consequeuces,  and  likely  to 
create  a  feeling  of  bitterness  between  the 
diffwent  classes  of  the  community,  which 
it  is  the  duty  of  every  good  citizen  as  far 
as  possible  to  prevent. 

The  Eael  of  ELLENBOEOUGH  :  My 
Lords,  I  speak  in  the  presence  of  noble 
and  learned  Lords  who  will  correct  me  if 
I  am  wrong,  but  the  impression  on  my 
mind,  from  my  recollection  of  former 
statements  in  Parliament  and  elsewhere, 
when  matters  of  a  similar  nature  have 
been  under  discussion,  and  from  the  de- 
cisions of  the  Judges,  is  this — that  when 
any  great  assembly  of  persons  is  held 
under  circumstances  which  create  fear — 
reasonable  fear — ^in  the  minds  of  firm  men, 
such  assembly  becomes  of  itself  illegal, 
whether  any  act  of  violence  be  committed 
or  not. 

The  lord  CHANCELLOJl:  My  noble 
Friend  has  not  exactly  stated  the  proposi- 
tion correctly.  It  is  true  it  has  been 
frequently  decided  by  the  Judges  of  the 
land  that  large  assemblages  of  persons,  in 
.terroretn  populi,  would  constitute  an  un- 
lawful assembly ;  but  no  mere  assemblage 
of  numbers  would  make  a  meeting  illegal. 
There  must  be  a  fear  of  violence  or  dis- 
turbance of  the  public  peace  in  order  to 
.constitute  an  unlawful  assembly. 

The  Ea&l  ov  ELLENBOROUGH  :  But 
this  is  not  a  mere  assemblage  of  persons, 
but  an  assemblage  of  persons  sufficiently 
drilled  to  carry  a  column  of  40,000  or 
60,000  men  in  military  array  through  the 
streets  of  London.  That  is  not  an  ordi- 
nary meeting  of  men,  it  is  not  one  of  the 
meetings  within  the  contemplation  of  the 

The  lord  CHANCELLOR!  As  I 
imderstand  it,  they  are  sufficiently  drilled 

The  Earl  of  Ikrhy 

to  be  able  to  proceed  peaceably  in  proces- 
sion through  the  streets. 


The  Lord  Chancellor  acquainted  the 
House,  That  the  Clerk  of  the  Parliaments 
had  prepared  and  laid  it  on  the  Table  : 
The  same  was  Ordered  to  \)e  printed. 

House  adjoonied  at  a  quarter  befo 

ScTen  o'clock,  to  Monday  next, 

EleTen  o'clock. 

Friday,  February  8,  1867. 

MINUTES.>-Niw  Writ  Iuuid— ^or  Golohcs- 

ter,  v.TaTemer  John  BiiUert  eeqnirCi  Bfanor  of 

Sblict  Committib— On  Mines  appainUd. 
PuDUc  Bills — Betolutiani  in  CimmiUee — Dublin 

^JniTerstty  Professorships. 
Ordered^  Metropolitan  Poor ;  Trades  Unions  ; 

Criminal  Law ;  Dublin  Unirersilj  Prolessor- 

ships*;  Mines*;  Libel.* 
Firti   Reading — Criminal  Law  [8];  Metropo- 

liUn  Poor  [9] ;  Dublin  UniTersity  Professor* 

ships*  [10];  Libel*  [11], 


The  comptroller  of  the  HOUSE- 
HOLD  (Yisoottnt  Rotstok)  reported  Her 
Majesty's  Answer  to  the  Address  as 
foUows  :«- 

**  I  have  received  with  much  eatief action 
your  loyal  and  dutiful  Addreee. 

"  You  may  rely  with  confidence  on  My 
cordial  co-operation  in  all  meaeures  which 
are  calculated  to  enlarge  and  etrengthen  the 
free  institutions  of  the  Country,  to  im- 
prove the  Administration  of  the  Law,  and 
to  promote  the  toelfare  and  prosperity  of 
all  classes  of  Jfy  subjects.** 


Mr.  EIKNAIRD  asked  the  Soeretary 
of  State  for  Indisi  Whether  he  has  any 
objection  to  lay  upon  the  table  of  the 
Hoase  Copy  of  the  Minutes  of  the  Chief 
Commissioner  of  Oudh  and  of  the  GoTemor 
General,  on  the  Re^rt  of  Mr.  Dayies,  the 
Financial  Commissioner,  on  the  rights  of 
the  Ryots,  and  of  any  Orders  passed  by 
the  Home  Goremment  of  India  on  Sir 
John  Lawrence's  decision ;  whether  tiie 

140    I%$ProfimrMpofihe      (FsbsvabtS,  1867)       Unh0r$fifafl>uiUn.       14« 

S^g'SS^ r*;*RSS'o^  "^^  ^^^«^=  «  ™«  METEOPOLIS. 
ktefunine  in  Bengal;  and,  whether  at-  qvesxiok. 

toitioa  has  bem  direeted  to  the  following 
points: — Ist.  The  extent  of  country  af- 
&eted»  and  the  mortality  caused ;  2nd.  The 
eanses  of  the  famine,  and  how  far  aToid- 
aUe  in  fiitare  by  works  of  irrigation ;  8rd. 
The  amount  of  warning  of  its  approach, 
and  how  far  the  existing  maohmery  of 
rerenue  administration  is  adapted  to  giTe 
the  needed  warning;  4th.  The  measures 
of  precantion  adopted  by  the  Local  Qovem- 
meai  of  Bengal  on  receipt  of  such  warning? 
Yraooinrr  CRANBOUBNE :  With  re- 
spect to  the  first  Question  of  the  hon.  Gen- 
tleoum,  BO  orders  have  as  yet  been  author- 
ised or  passed  by  the  Queen's  GoTemment 
m  the  snbjeot  of  Sir  John  Lawrence's  de- 
dsioii.  The  Home  Goyemment  have  the 
sabjeet  under  consideration;  and  I  hope 
that  a  despatch  will  be  shortly  sent  out. 
As  soon  as  it  is  it  will  be  laid  on  the  table 
of  the  House,  with  the  Minutes  of  the 
Chief  Commissioner  of  Oude  and  of  the 
QovemoT  General,  on  the  subject  to  which 
the  hon.  Gentleman's  inquiry  refers.  With 
reject  to  the  second  Question  of  the  hon. 
Gentleman,  the  Queen's  Government  has 
ordered  a  Commission  to  be  issued  to  in- 
quire into  the  causes  of  the  famine  in 
Bengal,  and  the  mortality  which  that 
lamuie  produced,  and  that  Commission  has 
been  isaned  by  the  Govonor  General.  By 
the  news  of  the  last  mail  we  have  every 
ground  to  hope  that  the  Commission  will 
send  in  a  speedy  Beport.  The  instructions 
given  to  the  Commission  were  very  large, 
but  they  substantially  included  all  tho 
points  referred  to  by  the  hon.  Member. 

Ma.  BRIGHT  asked  the  noble  Lord  to 
state  whether  the  Commission  was  com- 
posed entirely  of  members  of  the  Indian 
Government,  or  whether  there  was  any 
portion  of  it  independent,  so  that  it  would 
be  likely  to  give  a  little  more  confidence  to 
the  country. 

YisoovjHT  CRANBOTJENE :  I  do  not 
exsctly  know  what  meaning  the  hon.  Gen- 
tleman attaches  to  the  words  ''  Indian  Go- 
vonment."  The  President  of  the  Com- 
adsBioniBaJudge.  A  gentleman  connected 
with  the  revenue  administration  and  a 
colonel  are  the  other  members  of  the  Com- 
nussiai ;  and  I  believe  the  names  of  all 
three  will  secure  for  the  Commission  the 
confidence  of  the  Indian  community  and 
of  the  public  generally.  I  may  mention 
that  the  IVestdent  is  Judge  Campbell^  one 
of  the  best  names  in  IndSis. 

Ms.  DENT  asked  the  Vice  President  of 
the  Committee  of  Council,  If  he  can  give 
the  House  any  information  as  to  the  cause 
and  extent  of*  the  recent  outbreak  of  Cattle 
Plague  in  the  Metropolis? 

Mb.  CORRT  :  As  to  the  first  part  of 
the  hon.  Gentleman's  Question,  relating  to 
the  cause  of  the  recent  outbreak  of  cattle 
disease  in  the  metropolis,  I  beg  to  inform 
him  that  the  Privy  Council  caused  an 
immediate  and  searching  inquiry  into  the 
subject,  but  as  yet  it  has  received  no  sa- 
tisfactory information.  In  respect  to  the 
second  part  of  the  hon.  Gentleman's  Ques- 
tion— the  extent  of  the  disease—it  appears 
that  forty-six  animals  had  been  exposed  to 
the  infection,  the  whole  of  which  were 
slaughtered  under  pressure  of  the  Privy 
Council,  or  the  local  authority,  but  not 
until  twenty-eight  had  caught  the  disease. 
The  first  case  occurred  on  the  28th  of  last 
month.  No  fresh  case  has  been  reported 



Mb.  HARVEY  LEWIS  asked  the  Se- 
cretaxj  of  State  for  India,  When  the  dis- 
tribution of  the  Central  India  Prize  Money 
(Lord  Strathnaim's  captures)  will  take 
place ;  and,  what  is  the  reason  of  the  delay 
m  distributing  the  same  ? 

ViscoimT  CRANBOURNE :  The  prin- 
cipal cause  of  the  long  delay  in  distributing 
the  proceeds  of  Lord  Strathnaim's  cap- 
tures has  been  the  verv  protracted  litiga- 
tion which  has  taken  placo  with  respect  to 
them;  but  after  the  conclusion  of  that 
litigation  a  Treasury  Warrant,  under  Sign 
Manual,  was  issued,  and  sent  by  us,  last 
year,  to  India,  with  a  very  strong  admo- 
nition as  to  the  neceesiW  of  rapidly  dis- 
tributing tho  money.  I  have  not  beard 
whether  the  final  steps  have  been  taken ; 
but  I  believe  the  distribution  will  be  made 
very  shortly. 



Mb.  YANCE  asked  the  Secretary  of 
State  for  the  Home  Department,  If  the 
vacancy  in  the  Professorship  of  the  Uni- 
versity of  Dublin  has  been  filled  up  ? 


Law  of 


Ibr/eiturs^  Question.       148 

Mil  WALPOLB  said,  ibat  he  did  not 
believe  that  the  Tacancy  in  the  Frofessor- 
ahip  of  the  Unirersity  of  Dublin  had  been 
filled  up. 



Hb.  WATEIN  asked  Mr.  Chancellor  of 
the  Exchequer,  When— referring  to  the 
pledge  of  the  President  of  the  Board  of 
Trade  last  Session  that  the  GoTemment 
Vfovld  in  the  recess  look  into  the  causes  of 
the  Commercial  Panic  and  into  the  opera- 
tion of  our  Monetary  Law^s,  "with  the 
earnest  desire,  if  possible,  to  legislate  on 
the  subject,"  "  or  to  invite  the  attention 
of  the  House  to  the  subject,"  at  the  earliest 
period — ^he  proposes  to  put  the  House  in 
possession  of  any  evidence  taken,  and  of  the 
views  and  intentions  of  the  Government  ? 

Thb  chancellor  op  thb  EXCHE- 
QUEK:  Sir,  it  is  not  our  intention  to 
place  any  evidence  on  the  matter  before 
the  House,  nor  to  legislate  on  the  subject 
of  the  cause  of  the  monetary  panic.  I 
think  it  will  be  a  convenient  opportunity, 
when  the  hon.  Gentleman  moves  for  a 
Committee  on  the  subject  of  the  Limited 
Liability  Acts,  to  state  the  general  views 
of  the  Government  as  to  the  course  it  may 
deem  it  necessary  to  take  in  the  matter. 


Mb.  NEWDEGATE  asked  the  Secre- 
tary of  State  for  Foreign  Aflfairs,  Whether 
he  will  lay  upon  the  table  of  the  House  the 
Circular  Despatch  of  Prince  Gortschakoff 
to  the  Bussian  Bepresentatives  abroad 
relative  to  the  breaking  off  of  the  relations 
between  the  Holy  See  and  the  Imperial 
Government,  and  to  the  abrogation  of  the 
Concordat  of  1847,  together  with  the 
Documents  annexed,  Extracts  from  which 
have  appeared  in  the  Newspapers  of  this 
country  ? 

LoM)  STANLEY:  The  paper  to  which 
my  hon.  Friend  refers  has  been  published 
by  the  Bussian  Government ;  it  has  been 
printed  at  length  in  many  of  the  Conti- 
nental journals,  and  I  believe  the  sub- 
stance of  it  has  appeared  in  several  of 
tKe  English  newspapers.  It  is  therefore 
quite  accessible  to  all  the  world ;  and  as 
it  relates  to  a  matter  with  which  the 
English  Government  has  nothing  to  do 
i^namely,  the  relations  between  Bussia 
and  the  Holy  See — ^I  would  ask  the  hon. 

Jfr.  Vaneo 

Gentleman  to  consider  whether  it  would 
not  be  a  waste  of  money  to  print  the  docu* 
ment,  unless  there  should  be  a  general 
desire  on  the  part  of  the  House  that  it 
should  be  put  in  the  hands  of  hon.  Mem- 
bers. If  there  is  such  a  desire  on  the  part 
of  the  House,  of  course,  we  have  no  objec- 
tion ;  or  if  my  hon.  Friend  or  any  other  hon . 
Gentleman  wishes  to  reprint  and  circulate 
it  he  may  have  access  to  a  copy  at  the 
Foreign  Office. 

Moved,  "  That  the  House  at  its  risiu^ 
do  adjourn  till  Monday.'' 


Mb.  CHABLES  FOBSTBB  asked  the 
Secretary  of  State  for  the  Home  Depart- 
ment, Whether  it  is  his  intention  to  intro- 
duce a  measure  for  the  abolition  of  the 
Law  of  Forfeiture  on  convictions  of  Felony, 
founded  on  the  provisions  of  the  Bill 
which  obtained  the  assent  of  this  House  in 
the  last  Session  ?  He  remarked,  that  when 
the  Conservative  party  was  in  Office  in 
1859,  two  distinguished  Members  of  the 
Government,  the  present  Lord  Chief  Baron 
Kelly  and  the  present  Lord  Chief  Justice 
Whiteside,  gave  their  assent  to  a  Bill  for 
the  abolition  of  the  Law  of  Forfeiture, 
and  had  it  not  been  for  the  circumstance 
of  a  change  of  Administration,  that  Bill 
would  probably  have  been  passed.  The 
House  would  also  remember  that  he  had 
brought  this  subject  under  its  notioe  in 
1864,  when  he  introduced  a  Bill,  the  prip« 
ciple  of  which  was  affirmed  by  the  House 
on  the  second  reading.  He  then  had  great 
pleasure  in  acceding  to  the  request  whieh 
was  made  to  him,  to  leave  the  further  con- 
duct of  the  measure  in  the  hands  of  the 
hon.  and  learned  Member  for  Bichmond  and 
the  Attorney  General.  His  measure  was 
received  with  great  favour  on  both  sides  of 
the  House,  and  was  generally  regarded  as 
a  very  important  measure  of  legal  Beform. 
That  Bill  went  up  to  the  House  of  Lords^ 
but  he  regretted  to  say  that  circumstances 
occurred  which  prevented  its  passing.  The 
present  system  was  fraught  with  great 
injustice,  and  acted  most  injuriously  on 
the  mining  interests  of  the  conntiy  at 
large.  A  deputation  from  the  traders  of 
South  Staffoinishire  had  waited  upon  the 
late  Government  on  the  subject,  and  stated 
that  they  were  unwilling  to  engage  in 
trade  from  the  fear  of  exposing  themselves 
to  the  penalties  of  conviction  for  man- 
slaughter in  consequence  of  accidents  from 
causes  over  which  they  had  no  controL 



(  Vbbbvart  S,  1S67) 

Poor  BtU. 


So  strongly  did  he  feel  on  this  subject,  that 
he  was  determined,  in  case  he  should  not 
receiTO  a  favourable  reply  from  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman,  to  re-introduee  the  Bill 
he  had  brought  forward  in  1864.  He 
hoped,  however,  that  the  reply  of  the 
right  hon.  Gentleman  would  relieve  him 
from  the  necessity  of  doing  so,  for  a  matter 
80  important  could  be  more  satisfactorily 
dealt  with  by  Government  than  by  a  pri- 
vate Member. 

Mb.  WALPOLE  :  I  have  referred  to 
the  Bills  of  1865  and  1866,  and  have  found 
that,  although  they  both  have  the  same 
object,  they  contain  very  different  provi- 
sions. The  subject  is  certainly  an  im- 
portant one,  but  the  importance  of  the 
object  sought  to  be  attained  depended 
mainly  upon  the  provisions  to  be  compre- 
hended in  the  Bill.  Nobody  can  doubt  that 
not  a  more  careful  person  than  my  hon.  and 
learned  Friend  the  late  Attorney  General 
could  have  been  engaged  in  preparing  such 
a  measure  as  this,  and  therefore  I  shall 
not  be  inclined  to  doubt  any  provisions 
which  he  may  have  inserted  in  the  Bill. 
At  the  same  time,  there  are  provisions  in 
the  Bill  of  last  year  which  I  should  like 
to  consider  with  the  present  Attorney  Ge- 
neral before  introducing  another  measure 
this  year.  The^probability  is,  that  after  a 
consultation  with  my  learned  Friend,  I  shall 
be  prepared  to  introduce  a  Bill  on  the  sub- 
ject, having  the  same  object  in  view  as  the 
former  Bills,  though,  perhaps,  with  not 
exactly  the  same  provisions. 

Mb.  HABFIKLD  urged  the  propriety 
of  speedy  legislation,  as  the  principle  of 
the  Bills  presented  on  the  subject  had  re- 
ceived the  general  assent  of  both  Houses. 

Motion  agreed  to :  House  at  rising  to 
adjourn  till  Monday  next. 

SuppLx— Order  for  Committee  read. 


Mb.  GLADSTONE  :  Perhaps  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman  the  Chancellor  of  the 
Exchequer  will  be  good  enough  to  give 
some  information  to  the  House  on  a  matter 
of  considerable  importance.  What  will  be 
the  course  of  business  on  Monday,  and 
what  Orders  he  proposes  to  place  on  the 
paper  in  order  that  he  may  be  able  to  open 
the  important  subject  of  which  he  has 
given  notice? 

Thb  chancellor  of  tub  EXCHE- 
QTJEE :  I  intend  to  put  on  the  paper  the 

subject  which  I  mentioned  I  should  bring 
forward  the  first  on  Monday  nexfr— namely, 
to  consider  the  paragraph  in  the  Queen's 
Speech  with  regard  to  the  Bopresentation 
of  the  People.  I  hope  the  House  will  not 
press  me  to  go  into  detail  now  as  to  the 
Motion  I  propose  to  make,  as  such  a  course 
might  lead,  perhaps,  to  misconception  and 
misapprehension  of  the  intentions  of  Her 
Majesty's  Government.  I  trust  that  the 
House  will  excuse  me  doing  so  at  the  pre- 
sent time.  I  shall  therefore  confine  myself 
to  saying  that  the  first  Order  of  the  Day 
for  Monday  will  be  one  in  effect  to  caU 
the  attention  of  the  House  to  the  subject 
to  which  I  have  referred,  which  is  men- 
tioned in  the  Queen's  Speech.  I  shall 
then  enter  fully  and  fairly  into  the  exposi- 
tion of  the  subject  and  the  proposals  of 
Her  Majesty's  Government. 


Committee  on  Motion,  ''That  a  Supply 
be  granted  to  Her  Majesty." 

Queen's  Speech  referred  .'—Motion  con- 

(In  the  Committee.) 

Queen's  Speech  read. 

Mesolved,  "  That  a  Supply  be  granted  to 
Her  Majesty." 

Eesolution  to  be  reported  upon  Monday 



Mb.  GATHORNE  HARDY,  in  moving 
for  leave  to  introduce  a  Bill  for  the  estab- 
lishment in  the  Metropolis  of  Asylums 
for  the  Sick,  Insane,  and  other  classes  of 
the  Poor,  and  of  Dispensaries ;  and  for  the 
distribution  over  the  Metropolis  of  por- 
tions of  the  charge  for  Poor  Relief ;  and 
for  other  purposes  relating  to  Poor  Relief 
in  the  Metropolis,  said :  In  bringing  before 
the  House  Uie  subject  of  which  I  have 
given  notice,  I  shall  endeavour  to  be  as 
brief  as  possible  in  my  explanation  of  the 
provisions  of  the  Bill  which  I  shall  have 
to  submit  to  the  House.  At  the  same 
time,  I  trust  that  the  House,  admitting  the 
great  importance  of  the  subject,  will  allow 
me  to  make  those  remarks  which  are  ne- 
cessary, in  order  that  they  may  have 
fully  before  them  the  scheme  which  I 
am  about  to  propose  for  the  management 
of  the  poor  in  the  metropolis.  It  is 
not  my  intention,  on  this  occasion,  to  go 
much  into  the  past.  I  think  we  had 
much  better  avoid  discussions  which  can 
lead  to  no  good  result  with  respect  to 




Po0t  B%a. 


what  has  been  done  on  former  oocasions. 
But  it  will  be  necessary  to  some  extent 
to  refer  to  the  past  history  of  what  has 
taken  place  in  respect  to  the  management 
of  the  metropolitan  poor,  in  order  to  ex- 
plain the  reasons  why  I  have  felt  it  to  be  my 
doty  to  snbmit  this  question  to  the  conside- 
ration of  the  House.  I  will  not  go  very 
far  back  in  my  retrospect.  A  Committee  sat 
upon  the  question  of  Poor  Belief,  not  only 
as  it  affected  the  metropolis,  but  England 
generally.  It  began  its  inquiries  in  1 861» 
and  reported  in  1864.  Now,  it  is  a  re- 
markable thing — Tory  remarkable,  it  ap- 
pears to  me  when  I  look  upon  what  has 
occurred  since — that  uothing  was  brought 
before  that  Committee  tending  to  implicate 
the  management  of  the  workhouses  in  the 
metropolis  in  the  charges  which  subse- 
quently created  so  much  excitement  not 
only  in  London,  but  in  the  country  also. 
Nothing  was  brought  before  that  Commit- 
tee ten^ng  to  show  that  the  metropolitan 
workhouses  in  their  management  presented 
features  of  a  disadvantageous  character  as 
compared  with  those  in  the  country  gene- 
rally. On  the  contrary,  there  was  every 
reason  to  suppose  that  those  workhouses 
were  properly  managed,  and  that  the 
treatment  of  the  poor  inmates  did  not  de- 
.mand  intervention.  Of  course,  then,  the 
Report  of  that  Committee  did  not  touch 
upon  the  circumstances  that  have  since 
been  disclosed,  inasmuch  as  there  was  no- 
thing pressed  upon  the  Committee  at  all 
relating  to  them ;  indeed,  they  rather  ex- 
pressed their  satisfaction  with  the  medical 
treatment  of  the  poor  generally,  and  said, 
I  think,  that  it  required  no  alteration,  and 
that  nothing  further  was  necessary  to  bo 
done  in  order  to  bring  the  medical  treat- 
ment of  the  poor  generally  into  a  more 
satisfactory  state.  They  said,  however, 
that  not  only  in  the  metropolis,  but 
throughout  the  country,  the  central  autho- 
rity of  the  Poor  Law  Board  ought  to  be 
confirmed,  and,  if  possible,  strengthened, 
and  that  it  might  be  done,  in  one  way, 
by  lengthening  the  term  for  which  the 
Commission  was  appointed.  They  went 
on  further  to  say  that  it  was  specially 
required  that  for  classification  in  work- 
liouses — and  that  without  reference  to  the 
metropolis  only  —  more  powers  should  be 
given  to  the  Central  Board — 

"  It  appears  to  the  Committee  that  the  union 
workhouae  is  inioffloient  for  the  proper  clatsiflca- 
tion  of  the  inmates,  and  ihej  consider  it  desirable 
that  greater  power  should  be  given  to  the  Central 
Board  than  what  the/  now  possess,  to  require  the 

Mr.  Oathome  JSIgrdjf 

guardians  to  make  adequate  arrangement  Ibr 
maintaining  such  olassifloaiion  in  the  work* 

In  1864,  then,  we  had  arrived  at  this 
point.  After  a  long  and  elaborate  inquiry, 
conducted  by  highly-qualified  judges  of 
the  Poor  Law,  the  conclusion  was  arrived 
at  that  the  Central  Board  was  without  suf- 
ficient authority  for  the  classification  of 
the  poor,  and  generally  for  the  proper 
administration  of  the  poor  relief  through- 
out the  country.  Towards  the  end  of 
1864,  the  case  of  Timothy  Daly  occurred 
in  the  Uolbom  Workhouse;  it  was  the 
first  of  those  coses  which  so  much  at- 
tracted the  attention  of  the  country;  it 
was  followed,  by  that  of  Gibson  in  the 
workhouse  of  St.  Giles,  in  1865.  In 
April  of  the  same  year,  a  letter  written  by 
one  of  the  nurses  at  the  Rotherhithe 
Workhouse  called  attention  to  a  very 
painful  state  of  circumstances  there ;  and 
finally,  in  1866,  the  same  nurse  called 
attention  to  the  state  of  the  Strand  Work- 
house, where  she  had  been  lately  engaged 
as  a  nurse.  Inquiries  took  place  with 
reference  to  Daly  and  Gibson's  cases,  and 
in  1865  the  Rotherhithe  guardians  in- 
quired into  the  statements  made  by  that 
nurse.  Ko  action  was  then  taken  by  the 
Poor  Law  Board  on  the  eiridence  taken 
by  those  guardians;  but  in  1866,  upon 
the  requisition  of  the  Workhouse  In- 
firmary Association,  official  inquiries  were 
made  respecting  the  condition  of  the  sick 
in  the  Strand,  Rotherhithe,  and  Padding- 
ton  Workhouses  by  inspectors,  whose  re- 
ports were  exceedingly  adrerse  to  the 
management  of  the  sick  in  these  work- 
houses and  caused  a  great  sensation 
throughout  the  country-F-perhaps  a  greater 
sensation  than  was  justified  oy  all  the 
circumstances.  When  one  considers  that 
in  the  metropolis  there  are  thirty-nine 
workhouses,  containing  a  population  of 
from  25,000  to  30,000  persons,  it  would 
not  strike  one  as  remarkable  that  there 
should  haTO  been  four  cases  in  which  great 
hardship  and  wrong  had  been  inflicted. 
No  doubt  many  things  were  rerealed  which 
allowed  that  there  was  necessity  for  in- 
terference, but  these  particular  cases,  each 
seen  in  varied  shapes,  as  it  were,  in  a 
kaleidoscope,  through  the  comments  of 
the  press,  caused  a  sensation,  which  if 
not  unreasonable  or  unnatural,  was  per- 
haps disproportioned  to  the  circumstances 
under  which  they  occurred,  and  blame 
was  imputed  to  the  guardians,  not  only  of 
the  workhouses  in  question,  but  of  the 



{7£BBT7ART  8,  1867] 

Poor  Sin. 


workhouses  of  the  metropolis  generally. 
Every  one  must  admit  that  the  office  of  a 
gnardian  is  one  of  great  difficulty  and  deli- 
cacy.   He  has  to  stand  hetween  the  poor 
and  the   ratepayers ;    he   is  continually 
pressed  on  one  side  and  the  other;  and 
in  London  he  is  watched  with  excessive 
scrutiny  by  the  press,  particularly  after 
the  occurrence  of  cases  like  those  named ; 
through  these  discussions  he  becomes  more 
fearfiU  of  acting  on  his  own  responsibility, 
and  there  is  a  vacillation  in  his  movements 
which  there  would  not  have  been  if  he 
was  left  more  alone.     At  the  same  time, 
I  will  not  say  it  is  not  advantageous  that 
there  should  be  the  fullest  scrutiny  into 
every  transaction  of  the  kind  referred  to, 
and  that  the  fullest  publicity  should  be 
giTen  to  all  the  circumstances  connected 
with  institutions  which  so  materially  affect 
the  welfare  of  the  poor  and  the  interests  of 
the  ratepayers,  both  of  the  metropolis  and 
the  country  generally.    During  1865  and 
1866,  whilst  these  things  were  going  on, 
a  well-conducted  newspaper,  ITie  Zaneet, 
thought  proper  to  employ,  at  its  own  ex- 
pense, certain  medical  men,  who  made  full 
inquiry  into  the  administration  of  the  sick 
departments    of  the  metropolitan  work- 
houses. I  should  be  the  last  person  to  com- 
plain of  the  mode  and  manner  in  which  that 
inquiry  was  conducted,  it  being  conducted 
in  a  tone  and  spirit  very  different  from 
that   which  characterized  the  comments 
of   some  other    portions   of    the  press. 
On  the  whole,  The  Lancet  founded  its  ani- 
madversions on  facts  and  incidents  that 
really  occurred,  and  it  did  not  indulge  in 
mere  sensational  writing  as  some  other  pa- 
pers did.    The  articles  in  I%e  Lancet  na* 
turally  made  a  great  impression,  because 
they  called  attention  to  the  facts  that  the 
constraction  of  the  sick  wards  in  the  work- 
houses  was  bad  in  itself;    that  in  the 
main  they  were  overcrowded;  that  the 
nursing  was  bad  and  wholly  iuadequate ; 
the  ventilation  in  almost  every  respect  was 
defective  ;  and  that  the  furniture,  applian- 
ces, clothing,  and  cooking  arrangements 
were  bad,  and  not  at  all  appropriate  to 
the  wants  of  the  sick.     In  May,  1865, 
in  consequence  of  the  prominence  which 
the  subject  of  nursing  had  acquired,  a 
circular  was  sent  out  by  my  right  hon. 
Fredeeessor,  calling  the  attention  of  the 
metropolitan  guardians  to  the  inadequacy 
of  the  staffs,  and  calling  upon  them  to 
appoint  at  least  one  paid  nurse  to  super- 
intend each  sick  wara,  and  also  to  ap- 
point paid  assistant  nurses  who  might  wut 

with  more  responsibility  on  the  patients. 
Subsequently,  a  full  investigation  into  the 
state  of  the  sick  wards  was  undertaken  by 
the  Poor  Law  Board  itself,  through  its 
medical  officer  and  inspector.  Dr.  Edward 
Smith,  and  Mr.  Famsdl,  inspector  of  the 
metropolitan  district;  and  their  inquiry 
did  not  terminate  until  just  before  the 
change  of  Government  which  took  place 
last  year.  Their  Eeports  were,  however, 
in  the  hands  of  mv  Predecessor,  but  no 
action  had  been  taken  upon  them  up  to 
the  time  that  I  succeeded  to  the  office 
I  now  hold.  Hon.  Members  who  take  an 
interest  in  this  subject  will  find  that  Mr. 
Farnall's  Beport  is  based  upon  one  suppo- 
sition, and  Dr.  Edward  Smith's  upon  ano- 
ther. Mr.  Famall's  Eeport  is  based  upon 
what  he  called  the  requirements  of  medical 
science — namely,  that  certain  medical  men 
of  the  greatest  eminence  urged  that  1,000 
feet  cubical  space  was  required  for  each 
inmate  of  a  sick  ward  ;  whilst,  on  the  other 
hand.  Dr.  Edward  Smith's  Beport  was 
based  on  the  understanding  that  the  re- 
quirements of  the  Poor  Law  Board  was 
what  he  had  to  see  to.  It  appeared  that 
up  to  this  time  500  feet  cubic  space  was 
considered  sufficient  for  a  sick  ward,  and 
he  thought  it  was  his  duty  to  inquire  how 
it  had  worked.  Both,  however,  came  to 
the  conclusion  that  the  workhouse  infir- 
maries are  overcrowded,  that  the  nursing 
is  defective,  that  the  appliances  are  also  de- 
fective, that  the  ventilation  is  insufficient^ 
and  that  great  reform  is  needed  in  the 
sick  wards  of  the  workhouse  infirmaries. 
That  was  the  state  of  things  when  I  had 
the  honour  to  be  appointed  to  the  office 
which  I  now  hold.  At  that  time  my  at- 
tention was  called  in  this  House  to  those 
cases  to  which  I  have  referred,  and  others, 
in  which  it  was  said  that  great  negligence, 
cruelty,  and  hardship  had  occurred  to 
individuals  in  these  workhouses,  and  I 
then  said  it  would  be  my  first  duty  to  en- 
deavour to  mitigate,  with  the  powers  I 
possessed,  the  evils  which  then  existed. 
I  stated,  at  the  same  time,  that  I  felt  that 
the  time  must  come  when  I  must  ask  the 
House  for  powers  to  provide  permanent 
remedies  for  evils  which  without  I  could 
only  temporarily  moderate.  It  has  been 
asked  in  many  quarters  why  I  did  not  put 
in  force  the  compulsory  powers  that  be- 
long to  the  Poor  Law  Board.  In  my  opi- 
nion there  has  not  yet  arisen  occasion  to 
put  them  in  force,  because  nearly  every- 
tUng  I  have  asked  has  been  done,  or  is 
in  the  course  of  being  donoi  and  it  would 




Poor  BiU. 


have  been  difflcnlt,  if  not  impossible,  to  have 
proceeded  by  mandamui  in  the  case  of  me- 
dical officerst  legal  and  technical  questions 
and  questions  of  contract  would  undoubt- 
edly have  been  raised.  No  doubt  the  Poor 
Law  Board  possesses  the  power  to  enforce 
the  appointment  of  officers,  but  the  power 
must  be  exercised  carefully,  and  strictly 
within  the  limits  of  the  law ;  and  I  thought 
that,  as  the  time  was  approaching  when  I 
could  ask  the  House  for  further  powers, 
it  would  be  unwise  and  imprudent  to  in- 
Tolve  myself  in  a  collision  in  which  I 
might  get  the  worst  of  it,  and  which  might 
give  rise  to  a  feeling  that  I  had  used 
powers  I  did  not  possess,  or  that  I  had 
used  legal  powers  unnecessarily.  Besides, 
on  the  whole,  the  guardians  were  acting 
in  a  fair  spirit;  they  were  adopting  the 
suggestions  that  were  made  to  them,  and 
were  endeavouring  to  carry  them  out.  At 
the  same  time,  I  am  bound  to  say  that  the 
two  inspectors  who  then  had  charge  of  the 
metropolitan  district,  Mr.  Corbett  and  Dr. 
Markham,  discharged  their  duties  in  the 
most  indefatigable  manner,  and  were  de- 
serving of  every  praise.  They  visited  the 
workhouses  by  night  and  by  day,  and 
consulted  the  guardians,  endeavouring  by 
firmness  and  conciliation  to  obtain  the  re- 
medies that  Wijuld  mitigate  the  evils  which 
had  been  justly  complained  of,  and  simul- 
taneously procuring  information  to  enable 
me  to  propose  legislation  on  this  very  im- 
portant subject.  I  may  be  permitted  to 
call  attention  to  the  letter  of  Mr.  Ernest 
Hart  which  appeared  in  one  of  the  daily 

gapers,  because  he  is  a  gentleman  who 
as  devoted  hb  attention  to  the  reform  of 
our  workhouses,  and  particularly  the  work- 
house infirmaries.  I  am  not  going  to  put 
forward  anything  that  I  may  have  done 
other  than  to  say  that  I  have  endeavoured 
to  do  my  best ;  but  I  will  take  it  on  Mr. 
Hart's  admission  that  much  has  been  ef- 
fected already  in  the  way  of  temporary 
remedies — ventilation  has  been  improved, 
paid  nurses  have  been  provided,  more 
medical  officers  have  been  provided,  and 
the  furniture  and  other  appliances  required 
for  the  sick  have  been  very  much  improved. 
Having  made  these  preliminary  remarks, 
I  come  to  the  permanent  arrangements 
proposed  for  the  metropolitan  workhouses. 
The  inquiries  of  Dr.  Markham,  a  skilled 
physician,  well  acquainted  with  hospital 
treatment  and  the  proper  working  of  in- 
firmaries, have  been  continually  directed 
to  the  state  of  the  workhouse  infirmaries 
in  the  metropolitan  district  and  their  re- 

Mr.  Oathorm  Sardg 

quirements,  and  from  his  reports  and  other 
information,  I  came  to  the  conclusion  that 
there  was  nothing  absolutely  definite  on 
the  vexed  question  of  fioor  and  cubical 
space.  I  determined,  therefore,  to  call 
in  persons  who  were  qualified  to  give 
a  distinct  opinion  on  the  subject,  in  o^er 
that  when  I  came  before  the  House  I 
might  not  have  to  aigue  on  disputed 
theories;  and  I  am  sure  the  House  wiU 
not  say  that  in  consulting  the  gentlemen 
I  did,  gentlemen  whose  attention  had  beeu 
specially  called  to  the  London  Infirmariea, 
I  did  so  with  the  view  of  confirming  any 
preconceived  notions  of  my  own,  especially 
as  one  gentleman  who  was  applied  to,  but 
could  not  act,  was  well  known  to  be 
strongly  in  favour  of  the  largest  amount  of 
cubical  space.  That  was  Dr.  Parkes.  I  ap- 
plied to  Sir  Thomas  Watson,  President  of 
the  College  of  Physicians,  to  whom  I  can- 
not sufficiently  express  my  gratitude  for 
the  zeal  and  ability  with  which  he  applied 
himself  to  this  subject,  as  though  it  were 
the  only  one  before  him.  There  was  also 
Dr.  Acland,  of  Oxford,  whose  only  object 
was  for  the  public  good,  ofiered  to  come 
up  and  take  part  in  the  Committee,  to- 
gether with  Dr.  Sibson,  Mr.  Charles 
Hawkins,  Mr.  T.  Holmes,  Captain  Oalton, 
Dr.  Bandall,  Dr.  Smith,  Dr.  Markham, 
and  Mr.  Corbett.  They  visited  the  work- 
houses by  day  and  by  night — they  tested 
the  atmosphere  of  the  sick  wards  in  the 
different  workhouse  infirmaries,-  and  thus 
obtained  data  upon  which  they  have 
founded  their  conclusions,  and  I  cannot 
but  call  attention  to  the  fairness  of  the 
mode  in  which  they  have  dealt  with  the 
question.  They  did  not  treat  the  question 
simply  as  one  of  theory,  but  went  fully 
into  the  subject,  ascertaining  the  kind  of 
diseases  prevalent  in  the  workhouse  infir- 
maries, and  with  the  knowledge  that  there 
would  be  a  removal  of  certain  classes  of  sick 
—for  example,  small-pox  and  fever  patients 
— from  those  infirmaries  altogether,  whose 
absence  would,  of  course,  make  a  material 
difference  in  the  calculation.  One  point  is 
remarkable  enough.  It  is  that  however 
overcrowded  these  infirmaries  may  be,  none 
of  those  diseases  appear  there  which  are 
known  to  result  from  overcrowding.  There 
are  no  hospital  diseases,  and  it  has  attract- 
ed attention  abroad  as  well  as  at  home 
how  very  few  are  the  cases  of  puerperal 
fever,  which  so  often  decimate  lying-in 
hospitals,  and  in  France,  I  believe,  cause 
death  to  an  extent  of  which  we  have  no 
conception.     Even  in  our  own  lying-in 



{FebotahtS,  1867} 



hospitals  these  cases  oocar  to  a  much  larger 
extent  than  in  the  metropolitan  work- 
houses. I  will  now  read  a  few  sentences 
which  form  the  practical  groundwork  of 
the  Beport— 

**  The  problem  to  be  solred  really  is  wbai  is 
the  amount  of  floor  and  eubieal  tpaoe  which  shall 
not  be  too  little  on  the  one  hand,  nor  more  than 
enough  on  the  other— ^not  too  little  for  the  hMlth 
and  comfort  of  the  panper  inmates,  sick  or  well, 
not  too  mneh  for  the  means  of  the  humblest  rate* 
payer.  This  practical  aspect  of  the  question  the 
Committee  bare  deemed  it  their  duty  to  keep 
steadily  in  Tiew,  always  with  an  inclination,  if  the 
balance  cannot  be  strictly  adjusted,  towards  the 
side  of  the  sick  and  poor.  It  is  fit  that  these 
houses  be  made  safe,  decent,  and  commodious ;  it 
is  neither  necessary  nor  expedient  that  they  be 
made  luTiting." 

Upon  that  basis  Sir  Thomas  Watson  and 
the  gentlemen  associated  with  him  arrived 
at  their  principal  conclnsionsi  Before  call- 
ing attention  to  those  conclusions,  I  will  re- 
fer for  a  moment  to  the  enormous  changes 
which  have  taken  place  in  the  metropo* 
litan  workhouses.  They  were  origioally 
built  at  an  enormous  cost,  and  I  find  that 
since  1834 — I  do  not  know  what  they 
had  cost  up  to  that  time  —  upwards  of 
£1,000,000  has  been  spent  upon  them. 
When  they  were  built  it  was  not  con- 
templated that  they  should  become  mere 
asylums  for  the  aged,  the  sick,  and  the 
infirm;  but  these  are  now  the  main 
occupants  of  the  workhouses,  and  the  able- 
bodied  are  practically  almost  unknown. 
Assuming  that  the  able-bodied  are  only 
those  under  sixty — an  unreasonable  period, 
perhaps  as  many  men  are  quite  able- 
bodied  when  beyond  that  age — it  appears 
that  there  are  only  889  able-bodied 
men  in  the  London  workhouses,  and  of 
women  about  2,000.  Besides  this,  it  must 
be  remembered  that  at  the  time  when 
this  inquiry  was  instituted,  great  changes 
had  arisen  in  the  various  theories  formerly 
entertained  upon  these  matters.  Former 
Beporta  and  recommendations  made  show 
that  a  very  much  smaller  space  was 
thought  requisite  for  the  sick  than  is  now 
almost  universally  looked  upon  as  desirable. 
Thus  the  condition  of  things  is  very 
different  from  that  existing  when  these 
workhouses  were  designed.  They  were 
designed  as  workhouses  under  the  new 
Poor  Law  .to  deter  able-bodied  persons 
from  going  into  them;  it  is  found  that 
they  do  act,  in  a  great  degree,  as  a  check 
in  this  way;  but  now  they  are  places 
chiefly  for  the  sick  and  aged  poor,  the 
T^  persons  whom  the  count^  would 

wish  to  see  well  cared  for.  Then,  the 
Poor  Law  Board  itself  does  not  seem 
to  have  been  always  of  the  same  opi- 
nion respecting  the  cubical  space  and  the 
nursing.  Now  the  cry  throughout  the 
country  and  the  metropolis  is  that  you 
must  have  as  many  paid  nurses  as  you  can 
get ;  but  in  a  Return  moved  for  by  the 
Earl  of  Carnarvon  in  the  other  House, 
occurs  this  letter,  dated  the  Uth  of  Feb- 
ruary, 1850,  in  which  the  Poor  Law 
Board  urge  the  guardians  at  Croydon  not 
to  appoint  too  many  paid  nurses — 

"  Throe  at  least  of  the  paid  servants  in  this 
hospital  must  be  discontinued.  In  the  greater 
number  of  country  unions  there  is  no  paid  nurse, 
and  in  none  it  is  beUe?ed  more  than  one.  In 
pronouncing  upon  this  point  the  Poor  Law  Board 
attach  more  weight  to  the  results  of  experience 
than  to  the  opinion  of  the  medical  officer  of  the 
Croydon  Workhouse,  though  supported  by  that  of 
three  of  his  professional  friends.  If,  for  instance, 
the  infirmary  of  the  Wandsworth  and  Clapham 
anion  workhouse  can  be,  as  it  is,  perfectly  well 
managed  under  one  paid  nurse,  why  should  the 
medical  officers  say  that  five  paid  nurses  are 
required  in  the  much  smaller  wflrmary  of  the 
Croydon  Workhouse." 

I  only  quote  that  in  order  to  show  that  we 
can  only  act  up  to  the  lights  we  have,  and 
that  some  fifteen  or  sixteen  years  ago 
medical  men  and  the  Poor  Law  Board  itself 
believed  there  was  much  less  necessity  for 
greater  space,  paid  nurses,  and  other  ap- 
pliances than  is  now  thought  requisite. 
We  should  not,  therefore,  attack  our  pre- 
decessors unnecessarily  upon  this  subject, 
because  we  should  probably  have  acted 
at  that  time  just  as  they  did.  Tcome  now 
to  the  conclusions  of  the  Committee.  They 
say,  respecting  the  classes  of  sick  poor  of 
whom  I  have  spoken — 

"  The  Committee,  after  full  and  anxious  consi- 
deration of  the  subject,  haTc  recommended  that  a 
space  of  not  less  tluui  850  cubic  feet  on  an  average, 
with  six  feet  across  the  beds,  should  be  provided 
for  each  sick  inmate ;  of  not  less  than  1,200  feet 
for  each  'offensive  case'  in  the  'separation' 
wards ;  the  infirm  wards  should  have  at  least  500 
feet  with  day  room ;  the  surgical  wards,  800  ;  and 
the  lying-in-wards,  1,200  ;  for  general  wards,  SOO 
would  M  sufficient ;  but  for  fever  and  small- pox 
wards,  2,000,  and  that  they  should  be  removed  to 
separate  hospitals.*' 

But  the  great  point  upon  which  they  dwell, 
and  upon  which  the  whole  question  turns, 
is  ventilation.  It  is  stated,  upon  author- 
ity which  I  cannot  doubt,  that,  whatever^ 
amount  of  space  you  may  have,  if  the  ven-* 
tilation  be  not  good,  all  your  expense  and 
trouble  are  thrown  away,  and  that  it  is  idle 
to  increase  the  space  unless  you  improve 




Poor  Bin. 


the  ventilation.  Accordingly^,  the  Commit* 
tee  gave  great  attention  to  this  subject,  and 
to  the  best  mode  of  insuring  proper  ventila- 
tion. The  appendices  to  me  Report  are 
not  yet  perfect ;  but  I  hope  in  the  course 
of  this  week,  or  the  beginning  of  the  week 
after,  to  lav  before  the  House  all  the  data 
upon  which  these  gentlemen  have  pro- 
ceeded. The  Uouse  will  find  them  worthy 
of  attention,  and  they  show  that  you  can- 
not by  merely  adding  to  space  overcome 
the  difficulty  of  obtaining  fresh  air.  Tou 
must  not  give  air  to  the  patients  cold  or 
in  draughts,  because  to  these  old  people 
draughts  would  be  more  dangerous  than 
overcrowding  and  heat ;  and  if  you  give 
them  warm  air,  you  must  have  some  artifi- 
cial system  by  which  the  air  is  brought 
into  proper  condition  so  as  to  be  adapted 
to  their  weak  state.  In  one  of  the  great 
hospitals  in  France— the  Lariboisiere — 
2,000  cubic  feet  are  allowed  for  every 
inmate,  and  yet  from  its  defective  ventila- 
tion it  is  said  1)y  Dr.  Bristowe  and  Mr. 
Holmes,  in  their  iReport  on  Hospitals,  to 
be  worse  than  the  old  infirmary  at  Leeds. 
This  space  being  then  required  by  the 
Committee,  and  accepted  by  me  as  the 
data  on  which  I  am  bound  to  proceed,  I 
have  made  up  my  mind  to  act  on  these  con- 
clusions, and  on  them  I  shall  proceed  to 
legislate ;  and  then  the  question  arises,  how 
is  the  space  to  be  obtained  ?  We  have  in 
the  metropolitan  workhouses  about  26,240 
persons.  That  excludes  the  inmates  of 
the  Richmond  and  Croydon  Workhouses, 
which  are  not  properly  comprised  within 
the  metropolitan  district,  though  within 
the  inspecting  powers  of  the  metropolitan 
inspectors.  There  are  temporarily  dis- 
abled, 7,046;  old  and  infirm,  13,685;  able- 
bodied,  2,899;  children  above  two  years 
of  age,  2,150;  infants,  1,015.  Out  of 
the  whole  of  these,  1,977  are  imbeciles  or 
lunatics,  and  form  a  separate  and  distinct 
class.  Now,  there  is  a  very  remarkable 
thing  in  these  workhouses,  which  shows 
to  their  credit  —  I  refer  to  the  great 
age  to  which  people  may  live  in  them. 
There  have  been  as  inmates  for  the  period 
of  one  year  and  upwards  persons  above 
the  age  of  70  to  the  extent  of  4,783 ;  from 
75  to  80,  3,812;  from  80  to  90,  903. 
Those  who  have  been  fix>m  five  to  ten 
years  inmates  number  1,352,  and  those 
above  ten  years,  857.  I  saw  in  one  of 
the  workhouses,  in  the  City  of  London 
union,  what  Sir  Oeorge  Ijewis  would 
have  told  us  was  an  impossibility  — 
an  old  man  of  100  years  of  age.     I 

Mr.  CMhwrm  Sarif 

believe  this  is  a  well-authenticated  case, 
and  judging  from  appearances  he  was 
likely  to  live  for  some  time.  Well,  the 
question  is,  how  am  I  to  get  room  for  all 
the  sick  poor  of  the  metropolis  ?  In  the 
first  place,  I  propose  that  the  lunatics  aud 
imbeciles  shall  be  removed  and  placed  in 
separate  establishments;  then  that  the 
children  above  two  years  of  age  shall  go  to 
separate  schools,  and  having  done  that, 
I  fear  I  shall  find  myself  still  with  a 
considerable  deficiency  of  space  under  the 
new  circumstances.  Wo  have  to  provide 
for  34,000  persons,  including  children. 
How  is  that  to  be  done  ?  It  must  be  done 
by  additional  buildings.  I  propose  to  do 
it  in  accordance  with  the  original  inten- 
tion of  those  who  passed  the  Poor  Law  Act. 
So  long  ago  as  before  the  formation  of  the 
Gilbert  Unions,  a  Resolution  of  the  House 
was  passed  which  shows  what  was  in  the 
mind  of  the  House  at  that  time ;  it  was 
in  favour  of  the  establishment  of 

"A  proper  hoipital,  separate  workhooie,  and 
house  of  oorreoUon  in  each  district,  as  tlie  most 
easy  and  effeotive  method  of  relieving  the  impo- 
tent, employing  the  industrious,  and  reforming  the 
Ticlous  poor," 

and  it  was  evidentiy  not  supposed  that 
the  aged  and  infirm  would  be  brought 
in  who  were  principally  receiving  out- 
door relief  at  that  time.  In  1834, 
what  did  the  Commissioners  say  ?  Their 
intentions  are  given  by  Mr.  Edwin 
Chadwick  in  a  late  number  of  Fraser'a 
Magazine^  where  he  says  they  never  in- 
tended to  have  large  workhouses,  but 
separate  ones  for  separate  classes ;  but  in 
carrying  out  their  intention  they  seem 
to  have  come  to  a  different  conclusion; 
for,  so  far  as  I  can  see,  no  step  was 
taken  in  that  direction  by  the  Commis- 
sioners at  that  time,  and  I  suppose  that 
Mr.  Chadwick  must  have  been  overruled, 
and  that  an  entirely  different  scheme  was 
adopted.  In  their  Report  we  find  it  recom- 
mended that  the  Central  Board 

"  Should  be  empowered  to  eause  any  number 
of  parishes  to  be  inoorporated  for  the  purpose  of 
workhouse  management,  aud  for  providing  new 
workhouses  where  necessary,  and  to  assign  to 
those  workhouses  separate  classes  of  poor.  That 
the  requisite  classification  and  superintendonoo 
maj  be  better  obtained  in  separate  buildings  than 
under  one  roof.  Each  class  might  thus  reoeivo 
appropriate  treatment ;  the  old  might  enjoy  their 
indulgencies  without  torment  from  the  boisterous, 
the  children  be  educated,  and  the  able-bodied  sub- 
jected to  such  oourses  of  laboor  as  will  repel  the 
indolent  or  vioious." 

That  principle  was,  in  &ct|  carried  out  in 



{FXBRUABT  8, 1867) 

Poor  Sill. 


Ob  Bntriet  Sehools  Aot,  the  7  ft  8  FM. 
e.  101,  and  I  am  taking  no  new  step  now  in 
vlutt  I  proposey  for  in  1841  Earl  BaBBell, 
tiien  Lord  John  Boflselly  together  with 
Mr.  Baring  and  Mr.  Lahoachere,  brought 
in  a  Bill,  in  which  it  was  proTided  that 
parities  or  unions  might  have  separate 
buildings  for  the  insane  and  infirm  poor, 
SB  wdl  as  separate  schools  for  children. 
My  main  object  is  to  classify  the  different 
iofliaies  of  workhonses,  and  I  hope  to  do 
thst,  in  the  first  instance,  by  building  such 
la  establishment  or  estatdishments  as  will 
be  necessary  for  2,000  lunatics  and  imbe- 
eiles.  1  find  that  my  Tiew  on  this  subject 
Is  supported  by  the  Lunacy  Commissioners 
thenselTes;  for  in  1859  they  published 
s  supplement  entirely  devoted  to  this 
(pHstion  of  removing  the  lunatics  and 
imbeciles  from  the  workhouses.  I  will, 
for  a  moment,  oall  the  attention  of  the 
House  to  a  few  short  passages.  After 
pointing  oat  the  evils  attendant  on  the 
detentiim  of  lunatics  in  workhouses,  they 

"  To  remedy  many  of  the  evfls  sdrsiied  to 
voald,  in  oar  o^ion,  be  iropneiioable,  lo  long 
u  ioMiie  peiients  are  detained  in  workhoiues, 
vbetber  mixed  with  other  inmatee,  or  plaeed  in 
disiioet  wards.    The  oonstmotion  and  manage- 
■oitof  workhoiieefl  present  insnnnountable  ob« 
staeios  to  the  proper  treatment  of  the  disease  of 
insiiutj  ;    and,  therefore,  the    removal  of   the 
majority  of  the  patients  and  the  adoption  of  strin* 
fentmeasnres  to  prerent  the  admission  of  others 
ia?e  beoome  absolntely  neoesiary.    ...    To 
meare  for  the  insane  poor  now  improperly  re- 
tained in  workhonses  due  eare  and  treatment 
ebswhere,  it  will  be  necessary  to  add  greatly  to 
the  existing  aeoomroodation  in  county  and  borough 
asylums.    Many  of  these  are  already  upon  so 
large  a  scale  as  not  to  admit  of  the  necessary 
extension,  whilo  some  are  of  a  sisa  much  beyond 
tbat  which  is  ccwspatible  with  their  efficient  work- 
i&g.    After  fnll  consideration  of  the  subject  in 
sU  its  bearings,  we  are  of  opinion  that  the  best 
mode  of  malung  provision  for  the  insane  poor  who 
cssnot  be  received  into  the  present  asylums  will 
be  ^  the  erection  of  inexpenstre  buildings  adapted 
kf  the  reaidettoe  of  idiotic,  chronic,  and  harmless 
patients,  in  direct  connection  with,  or  at  a  conve- 
aicBt   distance    from,  the  existing  institutions. 
Tbese  auxiliary  asylums,  which  should  be  under 
the  management  of  the  present  visiting  justices, 
wcuM  be  intermediate  between  onion  workhouses 
sad  the  prinoipal  cnratire  asylums.    The  cost  of 
building  need  not,  in  general,  much  exceed  one- 
balf  of  that  incurred  in  the  erection  of  ordinary 
tsflsms ;  and  the  establishment  of  officers  and 
sttsndaats  wonld  be  npon  a  smaller  and  more 
seoMHDieal    scale  than   those   required  in  the 
principal  asylnms.    Without  the  adoption  of  mea- 
ivres  soch  as  we  have  suggested  no  eflRsctual 
rmedy  can,  in  oar  opinion,  be  fbnnd  for  the 
pisseni  ofUa  which  so  nrgeatly  press  for  oor- 

YOL,  CJ^XXXy.  [Tanu)  seues.] 

I  might  qnote  at  greater  length ;  bnt  those 
who  are  interested  will  find  the  whole 
Beport  worth  pemsal.  I  have  spoken 
to  one  of  the  Commissioners,  who  tells 
me  that  it  not  nnfincqaently  happens  that 
persons  who  might  be  easily  onred  if 
put  at  once  nnder  medical  treatment, 
are  after  a  few  days  in  a  workhouse 
rendered  absolutely  incurable.  I  am  sure 
that  an  evil  of  the  kind  to  which  I 
now  refer  is  one  to  which  this  House 
will,  if  it  be  possible,  apply  a  remedy. 
The  next  class  to  be  removed  is  that  of 
persons  suffering  from  fever  and  small-pox. 
At  present  the  great  majority  of  those 
cases  are  sent  to  the  hospitals  specially  de- 
voted to  the  cure  of  these  diseases ;  but  it 
often  happens  that  these  hospitals  are  full, 
and  I  am  bound  to  say  that  it  is  a  matter 
of  real  necessity  to  provide  some  directly 
under  Poor  Law  management.  I  would 
therefore  propose  to  take  or  hire  such  build- 
ings as  will  accommodate  from  700  to  800 
of  those  patients.  I  hope  and  believe  that 
the  time  will  come  when  by  proper  atten* 
tion  to  the  use  of  those  remedies  which 
science  has  discovered— vaocination  on  the 
one  hand,  and  good  sanitary  arrangements 
on  the  oUier — we  may  be  able  to  dispense 
with  those  hospitals  almost  entirely.  We 
cannot,  howerer,  dd  so  at  present ;  and  it 
is  a  most  msterial  thing  to  do  for  the 
people  themselves,  and  for  others  in  the 
workhouse,  that  to  avoid  risk  and  spread- 
ing the  disease  they  should  be  removed. 
With  respect  to  the  children,  almost  all 
the  metropolitan  unions  and  parishes  have 
district  or  separate  schools.  There  are 
six  instances  in  which  we  shall,  no  doubt, 
find  no  difSculty  in  obtaining  their  sanction 
— though  we  shall  not  require  it — that 
the  children  shall  be  removed  to  separate 
schools  like  those  which  the  inspectors 
have  certified  as  being  carried  on  on  a 
most  admirable  system.  In  them  the 
children  are  trained  not  only  in  the  or- 
dinary walks  of  industry,  but  the  instru- 
mental bands  of  some  of  our  regiments 
are  drawn  from  these  schools.  I  am  told 
that  almost  the  whole  band  of  one  of  our 
regiments  came  from  the  Btepney  School. 
I  have  not  been  there,  but  am  told  that  it 
is  a  most  interestiDg  sight  to  witness  the 
training  of  the  children.  Now,  am  I  to 
give  up  the  existing  workhouses  ?  I  think 
not  I  believe,  from  the  Beports  made, 
that  there  are  twenty-four  of  the  present 
workhouses  which  may  be  easily  and  satis- 
factorily adapted  for  aU  classes  of  poor, 
except  those  which  I  havo  before  deooribed. 








There  is  one  thing,  however,  which  we 
mnst  peremptorily  insist  on  — -  nametyi 
the  treatment  of  the  sick  in  the  infirmaries 
heing  oondnoted  on  an  entirely  separate 
system;  because  the  evils  complained  of 
have  mainly  arisen  firom  the  workhouse 
management,  which  must  to  a  great  de- 
gree bis  of  a  deterrent  character,  having 
been  applied  to  tiie  sick,  who  are  not 
proper  objects  for  such  a  svstem.  That 
is  one  thug  which  I  should  inrist  upon 
as  an  absolute  condition.  I  propose,  there- 
fore, tiiat  power  shall  be  given  to  combine 
such  districts  as  the  Poor  Law  Board  may 
think  proper— whether  parishes  and  pa- 
rishes, unions  and  unions,  or  unions  and 
parishes — under  a  more  complete  system 
of  inspection  and  control,  and  to  inte- 
rest in  the  conduct  of  tiiose  establish- 
ments persons  who  might  be  inclined 
to  give  them  their  attention.  I  propose 
that  we  should  be  able  to  appoint  nomi- 
nees on  the  Boards  of  Guardians,  providing 
they  never  exceed  one-third  of  tiie  whole 
body,  and  are  rated  at  not  less  ttian  £100 
a  year.  These  nominees  would,  I  hope, 
be  persons  taking  a  deep  interest  in  the 
management  of  the  establishments,  and 
they  would  exercise  a  closer  supervision 
than  can  be  exercised  by  an  inspector, 
whose  visitation  can  only  take  place  a 
certain  number  of  times  in  a  year.  This 
proposal  is,  I  am  aware,  a  novel  one,  and 
will  probably  raise  some  objectors;  but  the 
House  will  bear  in  mind  that  in  other 
parts  of  the  country  justices  of  the  peace, 
acting  practically  as  the  largest  ratepayers 
in  the  union,  have  seats  at  the  Board.  I 
propose  that  gentlemen  residing  in  the 
several  districts,  and  who  are  justices 
of  the  poaoe,  though  not  perhaps  filling 
thai  office  in  a  metropditan  county, 
should  be  eligible  to  be  placed  upon 
these  B|pards,  the  nominee  portioui  how- 
ever, never  exceeding  one-third  of  the 
whole.  I  know  I  shall  be  asked,  from 
what  I  have  seen  in  the  press,  and  what 
has  been  said  at  public  meetings,  in  re- 
spect to  a  plan  that  has  been  spoken  of  for 
workhouse  and  infirmary  alteration, "  Why 
do  you  not  have  six  or  seven  large  hos* 
pitals,  each  containing  1,000  inmates,  and 
conducted  upon  the  principle  of  hospitals 
pure  and  simple  ?  "  Now,  there  are  se- 
veral reasons  why  I  do  not  propose  this. 
In  the  first  place,  it  would  involve  great 
expense  and  render  useless  the  exiting 
workhouses.  Secondly,  there  is  the  ob- 
jection whieh  has  been  pointed  out  by 
many  eminent  medical  meui  that  whereas 

in  our  smaller  establishments,  notwith- 
standing all  their  defects,  gangrene,  eiy« 
sipelas,  and  puerperal  fever  do  not  intni^Ie, 
in  the  large  hospitals  those  diseases  not 
only  intrude,  but  are  often  permanently 
fixed  there.     Another  objection  is  that 
these  establishments  ought  to  be  readily 
accessible  to  the  people  of  the  district; 
because  the  people  admitted  into  them  are 
firequently  in  a  transition  state,  and  per- 
sons of  advanced  age  are  in  the  infirmary 
to-day  and  out  to-morrow,  in  this  week 
and  out  the  next,  and  to  remove  them  to 
and  from  a  distant  hospital  would  be  a 
much  more  prejudicial   course  than    to 
transfer  them    to    an  hospital    near    at 
hand,  and  capable,  under  proper  discipline, 
of  being  as  well  conducted  as  the  larger 
establii^ments.    I  hope  under  the  now 
system  to  ensure,  in  cases  where  there  are 
a  certain  number  of  sick,  resident  medical 
officers,  in  all  cases  separate  and  inde- 
pendent matrons,  and  paid  nurses.    But 
I   know  that  we  cannot  by  pajring  get 
trained  nurses.    Miss  Nightingale  says  no 
such  thing  exists  as  a  body  of  trained  nurses 
at  present :  we  most  train  them.    Well,  if 
we  cannot  get  them,  we  must  do  the  next 
best  thing — ^we  must  use  the  best  material 
available — we  must  pay  persons  respon- 
sible to  us,  and  in  that  way  having  got  the 
best  we  can,  by  having  these  separate  es- 
tablishments under  suitable  matrons,  we 
may  probably  educate  nurses  for  our  needs* 
I  believe  tnat  suitable  persons  could  in 
many  cases  be  found  in  the  workhouses 
who  would  gladly  seize  the  opportunity  of 
earning  a  good  livelihood.    I  believe  also 
in  the  schools  young  persons  might  be 
trained  to  nursing,  and  thus  provided  with 
means  of  earning  a  living  in  their  future 
life,  while  they  conferred  a  great  benefit 
upon  the  class  from  which  they  came. 
This,  of  course,  would  be  a  work  of  time ; 
and,  after  all,  the  large  hospitals  would 
experience  the  same  difficulty.    I  will  here 
call  the  attention  of  the  House  to  a  very 
curious  circumstance  which  is  referred  to 
in  the  last  Beport  of  the  Poor  Law  Board. 
In  Liverpool  a  gentleman,  to  his  honour 
be  it  said,  gave  £3,000  to  be  divided  into 
three  sums  of  £1,000  a  year  to  obtain  for 
the  Liverpool  Workhouse  trained  and  ex- 
perienced nurses.    Twelve  were  appointed 
on  the  recommendation  of  Miss  Nightin- 
gale, and  under  them  were  eighty  others. 
There  was  a  miraculous  change  in  the 
management  of  the  workhouse  infirmary. 
In  the  appearance  of  it  it  seemed  that 
everything  was  beinj;  done  on  an  im? 



{PEBRtriBY  8,  1867} 

Poor  Bill. 


proved  system.  But  what  did  the  intelli- 
gent master  of  the  House  report  ?  For 
&e  first  ten  months — and  I  agree  with 
him  that  that  time  is  too  short  to  give 
any  saffleient  proof  of  the  working  of  the 
system — for  flie  first  ten  months  after  the 
nurses  oame,  he  reported  the  disoharges 
had  been  fewer  and  the  deaths  more  fre- 
quent than  under  the  old  system.  I  con- 
ges that  did  to  some  extent  dishearten 
me,  and  I  have  not  at  present  any  farther 
return  on  the  subject,  tiiough  I  have 
tried  to  obtain  it.  I  am  bound  to  say 
that  Miss  Nightingale  was  not  quite 
satisfied  with  the  administration  of  that 
department,  although  any  one  who  visits 
the  liTerpool  Workhouse  will  see  that  it 
sets  a  pattern  which  is  well  worthy  of  being 
followed  by  similar  establishments.  I  have 
another  proposal  to  make  with  the  view 
of  securing  more  frequent  visitation.  It 
has  been  represented  to  me  that  there 
are  no  medical  schools  in  which  the  treat- 
ment of  chronic  diseases  can  be  studied ; 
and  I  therefore  propose  that  the  Poor  Law 
Board  should  have  power  to  establish  such 
schools,  or  more  properly  places  of  instruc- 
tion, in  connection  with  these  hospitals,  be- 
cause the  attendance  of  medical  practition- 
ers and  tiieir  pupils  would  amount  to  an  in- 
spection of  the  most  efficacious  kind.  Now, 
I  think  I  have  gone  through  the  different 
classes  that  I  propose  to  deal  with  in  work- 
houses, and  I  ask,  can  nothing  be  done  to 
prevent  so  many  sick  persons  coming  into 
the  ho^itals  ?  I  have  had  inquiries  made 
on  that  subject,  and  I  am  sure  that  the 
right  hon.  Gentleman  opposite  will  join 
me  in  admitting  the  debt  which  is  owing 
to  an  officer  of  the  Poor  Law  Board,  Mr. 
Lambert,  for  the  enormous  assistenee  he 
gave  them  in  the  arrangement  of  stetistics 
last  year,  and  I  have  to  thank  him  for  the 
earnest  and  laborious  assistenee  which  he 
has  afforded  me  in  connection  with  the 
changes  I  propose.  Though  he  had  well 
earned  a  complete  rest  after  having  devoted 
himself  to  the  preparation  of  the  elaborate 
Betnms  that  were  laid  before  Parliament, 
I  adsed  him,  on  his  teking  his  holiday,  if 
he  would  go  to  Ireland  and  make  inqui- 
ries as  to  the  administration  of  the  dis- 
pensary system  there.  He  did  so,  and 
has  made  a  Beport,  which  I  have  laid 
upon  the  teble ;  and  on  that  I  propose  to 
found  a  system  which  I  believe  calcu- 
lated to  £minish  the  amount  of  serious 
rickness  among  the  poor.  Half  the  pau- 
perism of  this  country  begins  in  sick- 
ness.   \  thinly  it  (^  ifUNit  imsatidiMtofy 

system  that  such  cases  as  this  should 
occur  constently: — A  child  goes  to  the 
district  medical  officer,  says  some  one  at 
home  is  ill,  and  describes  the  symptoms. 
Medicine  is  sent  with  the  child,  without 
the  medical  officer  having  visited  the  pa« 
tient.  It  may  do  harm,  or  it  may  do  good ; 
but  I  think  tiie  system  contrary  to  common 
sense.  Cases  have  come  before  me  where 
medicine  is  continued  to  be  sent  frequently 
while  the  medical  officer  has  not  seen  or 
seldom  seen  the  patient.  Not  long  ago  a 
case  occurred  in  the  metropolis  of  this 
kind : — ^A  daughter  came  to  the  medical 
officer,  described  pains,  and  medicine  was 
sent  to  the  mother ;  she  died,  and  it  was 
found  she  was  suffering  from  quite  a  dif- 
ferent complaint  to  that  to  which  the 
medicine  was  intended  to  cure.  I  know 
of  a  workhouse  in  the  North  of  England-^ 
I  will  not  mention  it — where  they  have 
what  they  call  house  medicine  placed  in  a 
pauper's  hands,  and  whoever  wants  it 
applies  and  gete  it,  and  the  demand  seems 
good,  for  though  the  workhouse  is  a  small 
one,  the  inmates  consume  a  gallon  a  week* 
The  medical  officer  says  it  does  them  no 
harm ;  the  master  says  it  has  a  great  effect. 
The  absence  of  disastrous  'consequences 
from  medicines  thiis  sent  upon  mere  guess 
seems  to  prove  that  they  must  be  at 
least  harmless;  but  more  is  required. 
Now,  to  remedy  this  loose  system,  I  pro- 
pose that  dispensaries  be  esteblished  in 
different  parte  of  the  metropolis,  and  that 
in  all  cases  the  medical  men  should  write 
a  prescription.  It  may  be  said  that  this  is  a 
cumbersome  system ;  but  it  is  carried  out 
in  Paris  and  in  Ireland,  where  it  answers 
exceedingly  well,  and  prevente  a  great 
deal  of  sickness  which  otherwise  would 
have  to  be  treated  in  the  hospitals.  Mr. 
Lambert  went  to  inquire  into  the  matter. 
I  do  not  propose  to  read  at  length  Ids  re- 
port; but  if  I  read  extracte  from  ii  it  will 
be  for  the  advantege  of  the  House,  for  I 
am  unable  to  give  better  reasons  for  this 
enactment  than  he  has  given.  Dr.  Bogers, 
in  his  evidence  before  the  Belief  Commit- 
tee, suggested  that  the  authorities  should 
find  the  drugs,  and  not  the  medical  offi- 
cers. I  propose  to  adopt  that  course ;  the 
drugs  are  to  be  found.  I  cannot  help 
thinking  that  will  remove  from  the  medi- 
cal man  a  great  temptetion.  We  shall 
secure  good  drugs ;  and  when  I  come  to 
speak  of  the  mode  of  paying  for  them  the 
House  will  see  that  the  plan  we  propose 
will,  or  at  least  ought  to,  obtain  for  us 
the  best  drugs  possible.     Tbo  advantages 




Poor  Bat. 


of  fUs  systeni  are  stated  by  Mr.  Lambert 

in  belter  winrda  than   I   myself  oould 


**  It  innires  Ibr  the  deititate  liek  poor  a  sniB- 
oient  rappljT  of  all  neoessar j  and  proper  medioine 
luid  medioal  applianoei.  It  eoablei  thoae  who 
are  not  oonflned  within  doors  to  obtain  medioal 
adyioe  at  fixed  hours,  and  within  a  conyenient  dis- 
tanee  from  their  homes.  It  insures  for  those  who 
are  nnable  to  go  ont  medical  attendance,  and  en- 
ables them  to  obtain  their  medicines  promptly. 
It  affords  facilities  for  yaocination,  as  well  as  for 
medical  relief  generally^  bj  establishing  fixed 
plaees  at  which  it  is  well  known  that  the  medical 
ofilcers  most  attencT  at  stated  hours." 

The  next,  I  think  a  most  important 
matter,  which  some  of  my  hon.  Friends 
firom  Ireland  will  no  doubt  be  able  to  con- 
firm ;  it  is  that  nothing  so  mach  tended  to 
check  the  recent  outbreak  of  cholera  in 
Ireland  as  the  power  of  expansion  which 
there  is  in  the  dispensary  system.  Mr. 
Lambert  goes  on  to  say — 

"  ItproTides  an  organisation  always  ready,  and 
capable  of  expansion  if  necessary,  to  meet  any 
outbreak  of  epidemic  disease  with  promptness  ; 
while,  at  the  same  time,  it  is  calculated  to  preyent 
disease  becoming  epidemic  by  early  treatment, 
and  by  procuring  the  adoption  of  precautionanr 
measures  in  any  locality  which  may  be  threatened. 
These  benefits  haye  recently  been  largely  realised 
in  Ireland  in  reference  to  cholera." 

I  think  it  a  most  important  point  that 
when  a  person  is  removed  from  outdoor  to 
indoor  i^ef  his  prescriptions  should  go 
with  him ;  so  that  the  medical  man  in 
charge  of  the  case  may  have  the  oppor- 
tunity of  seeing  what  the  oourse  of  treat- 
ment has  been— 

"  By  preserying  a  record  of  the  medical  treat- 
ment in  eyery  case  it  furnishes  a  test  of  both  the 
skUl  and  attention  of  the  medical  oiBoer.  It  pre- 
Tents  that  conflict  between  interest  and  dotr 
which  must  so  often  arise  in  the  mind  of  the  medi- 
cal ofllcer  when  he  himself  is  required  to  proyide 
medicines  ont  of  his  salary." 

I  think  the  reasons  I  have  just  read  are 
reasons  of  great  foroe  and  weight.  In 
attempting  to  give  effect  to  tiiem  it  wiU* 
of  course,  be  necessary  that  the  Poor  Law 
Board  should  have  power  to  deal  with  all 
contracts  entered  into  with  existing  medi- 
cal officers;  because  I  am  sure  the  House,  in 
a  proceeding  of  this  kind,  would  wish  to  see 
all  those  who  have  hitherto  given  their 
aervioes  dealt  with  justly  and  honourably. 
To  another  provision  which  it  will  be  ne- 
cessary to  make  in  this  Bill  the  attention  of 
the  House  was  called  by  the  Beport  of  the 
Committee  which  sat  firom  1861  to  1864, 
and  that  is  as  to  doing  away,  as  far  as  prac- 
ticable, with  Local  Acta  in  the  metropolis. 
At  preaent  tbete  are  tea  places  .under  Local 
Jfr*  Oathomo  ffardf  -^   ^ 

Acts  in  the  metropolis,  and  we  propose 
that  they  should  be  brought  just  as  m\icJi. 
under  ttie  authority  of  the  Poor  Law 
Board  as  any  of  the  rest.    At  the  present 
there  is  a  nominal  audit,  but  the  audit  in 
some  of  these  cases  is  worthless.    I  troat 
that  the  House,  with  the  Beport  of  the 
Committee  from  1861  to  1864  ^fore  them, 
and  with  all  the  facts  and  reasoning  in  ita 
fiivour,  will  carry  that  part  of  the  Bill— 
the  abolition  of  the  Local  Acts— so  far 
aa  they  relate  to  Poor  Law  administration 
in  the  metropolis.     Now  I  come  to    a 
point  which    will  be  more   interestingf 
to  some  hon.  Members  sitting  opposite 
than  any  other   part   of   the   BUI,      I 
have  been  urged  and  invited  by  a  great 
deputation,  by  pamphlets,  and  oy  letters 
innumerable,  to  state  whether  I  am  pre- 
pared to  equalize   poor  rates   through- 
out the  metropolis.    Upon  that  subject  I 
will  not  keep  the  House  in  suspense,  be- 
cause I  will  say  at  onoe  that  I  am  not 
prepared  to  make  such  a  proposition ;  hot 
I  am  prepared  to  doa  good  deal,  I  will  not 
say  towards  equalising  those  rates,  bat 
towards  distributing  charges  now  levied 
separately  upon  the  various  looalities.    It 
is  true  that  this  metropolis  is  in  a  certaia 
sense  one  altogether ;  but  every  one  must 
see,  I  think,  Uiat  there  is  no  place  in  the 
world  with  more  varied  interests  or  more 
unmistakably  divided  into  different  dis- 
tricts than  the  metropolis.     I  find  one 
gentleman  proposing,  for  instance,  twelve 
municipal   establishments,    and    another 
proposing  that   London   should  be  difi- 
ded  into  all  sorts  of  districts  with  dis- 
tinct machinery ;  so  that  it  is  quite  clear 
that  London  is  felt  to  be  separated  into 
various  and  distinct  divisions.     And  I 
cannot  get  over  this:  how,  if  you  onoe 
equaliae  the  rates  of  the  metropolis,  are 
you  to  provide  for  a   central   manage- 
ment?    You   must   have   a   paid   ma- 
nagement, and  you  must  do  away  with 
local  management  altogether.   If  not,  how 
are  you  to  put  a  proper  check  and  control 
on  the  expenditure  ?    I  am  quite  sure  of 
this,  that  by  such  a  change,  instead  of 
bringing  down   the   rates  to  a  certain 
amount,  you  would  have  a  very  great 
increase  in  the  present  rate  of  expenditure. 
I  oould  not  help  remarking  the  other  day 
at  the  deputation  how  many  gentiemen 
said  they  were  a  great  deal  less  liberal 
than  they  should  be  if  they  had  the  means 
of  putting  their  hands  into  the  pockets  of 
their  wealthy  neighbours.    I  quite  admit 
that  would  be  the  yemlt    It  it  Qlear«  at 



{FiBHUABt  8«  1867 1 

Poor  Bill. 


all  events,  that  the  depntation  looked  to  a 
much  larger  expenditure.  And  I  am  not 
now  expressing  any  opinion  of  my  own  as 
to  the  sufficiency  of  their  present  expendi- 
ture in  some  respects — as  to  outdoor  relief, 
for  instance.  But  I  beUeve  that  a  great 
paid  system  for  8,000,000  people  would  ut- 
terly ftdl,  though  perhaps  it  would  become 
a  great  department,  and  finally  overtop 
the  Department  over  which  I  have  the 
honour  to  preside.  If,  on  the  other  hand, 
the  administration  were  intrusted  to  the 
Poor  Law  Board,  it  would  occasion  con- 
flicts and  difficulties  greater  than  any  that 
have  hitherto  arisen.  Another  difficultv 
in  the  way  of  equalizing  the  rates,  though 
that  certainly  might  be  overcome,  lies  in 
the  question  of  uniformity  of  assessment. 
At  this  moment  the  rateable  value  of  the 
metropolis  is  put  at  £15,000,000.  How 
much  of  that  is  ascertained  by  the  Union 
Assessment  Committees  ?  Why,  as  to  be- 
tween £9,000,000  and  £10,000,000  of 
that  amount,  we  have  no  means  of  ascer- 
taining whether  the  value  ia  properly 
estimated  or  not.  It  is  ascertained  without 
Union  Assessment  Committees,  and  is  as- 
Bessed  in  parishes  as  they  please;  and  it  may 
be,  for  aught  I  know,  that  the  assessments 
may  be  so  managed  as  to  cause  much  of 
the  evil  which  is  complained  of.  The  Poor 
Law  Committee  did  not  make  any  recom- 
mendations on  this  subject.  They  called 
attention  to  it,  and  say  there  are  peculiar 
circumstances  in  the  metropolis.  There 
are  peculiar  circumstances  in  the  metro- 
polis, and  I  think  they  are  such  as  to 
justify  me  in  proceeding  to  the  length  I 
propose  to  do  in  distributing  the  charges. 
The  Union  Chargeability  Act  got  rid  of  a 
great  number  of  difficulties,  particularly 
in  the  City  of  London,  where,  I  think, 
one  parish  was  rated  at  2d,  in  the  pound, 
and  another  rated  as  high  as  9^.  These  in- 
equalities have  been  remedied,  and  the 
City  of  London  Union  is  now  equally 
assessed,  and  pays,  no  doubt,  a  very  mode- 
rate sum,  having  regard  to  its  wealth,  as 
compared  with  the  surrounding  districts. 
The  chaises  of  the  houseless  poor  have 
all  been  thrown  on  the  common  fund  of 
the  metropolis.  I  do  not  think  the  time 
has  yet  come  for  forming  a  definite  opinion 
on  that  question.  I  &ink  the  time  will 
come  when  it  will  be  necessary  to  inquire 
into  the  working  of  that  Act.  It  has 
answered  to  a  great  extent  in  this  way. 
It  has  provided  that  no  person  need  be 
houseless  in  this  metropolis.  It  has  trebled 
the  Bomber  of  persons  who  used  to  apply 

for  admission  to  the  casual  wards  of  work- 
houses ;  but  I  find  that,  although  the  esti- 
mate, in  point  of  numbers,  has  been  largely 
exceeded,  the  actual  cost  of  the  wards  and 
relief  given  is  not  beyond  the  one-eighth 
of  a  penny  regarded  at  the  time  as  suffi- 
cient for  the  purpose.  This  charge  is  not 
a  very  large  one,  yet  it  has  been  instru- 
mental in  introducing  a  new  principle 
into  the  metropolis.  I  told  the  House  I 
had  been  petitioned  repeatedly  by  persons 
at  the  East  End  of  the  metropolis  to  do 
something  to  bring  them  into  a  better 
condition.  Curiously  enough,  I  received 
only  yesterday  from  one  of  the  parishes 
that  is  rated  highest — Whitechapel — a  me- 
morial on  the  subject ;  and,  if  the  framers 
of  that  memorial  had  looked  into  the  Bill 
which  I  propose  to  submit,  they  could  not 
have  put  forward  more  accurately  the 
points  which  they  desired  that  I  should 
take  up,  both  as  to  the  direction  and  ex- 
tent of  Uie  changes  that  are  recommended. 
I  will  not  read  that  memorial  at  length ; 
but  I  may  state  its  substance.  The  me- 

**  Consider  that  the  following  proyisioni  leave 
eaoh  union  atill  to  be  responsible  and  ohargeablo 
with  preoisely  those  expenses  and  their  adminis- 
tration where  only  indiscrete  and  corrupt  expendi- 
ture could  occur,  and  so  supply  a  guarantee  to 
all  parties  against  the  increase  of  pauperism  by 
ignorant,  partial,  and  profuse  bestowal  of  tho 
public  fimds." 

They  propose  that  we  should  put  certified 
and  distnct  schools  upon  the  common 
fund;  and  that  lunatics,  imbeciles,  the 
salaries  and  wages  of  permanent  officials, 
fees  for  vaccination,  small-pox  and  fever 
hospitals,  and  so  forth,  should  be  charged 
to  the  common  fund.  That  is  exactly 
what  I  propose  to  do.  I  propose,  in 
the  first  instance,  to  charge  to  the  com- 
mon fund  the  lunatics  and  imbeciles.  I 
cannot  consider  that  an  unreasonable  step. 
When  the  settlement  of  these  persons  can- 
not be  ascertained,  they  are  charged  to  the 
county  in  county  asylums,  and  counties 
find  the  buildings,  and  it  cannot  be  con- 
tended that  lunatics  belong  more  to  one  part 
of  the  metropolis  than  they  do  to  another, 
though  all  have  an  equal  interest  in  seeing 
their  necessities  adequateljr  and  comfort- 
ably relieved.  Besides,  it  is  one  of  those 
items  which  cannot  be  jobbed ;  you  cannot 
make  lunatics  for  the  purpose.  It  is  not 
as  in  the  case  of  ordinary  sick  persons, 
who  in  hospital  would  be  charged  to  one 
fund,  and  out  of  hospital  to  another. 
Again,  there  are  many  reasons  why  the 
salaries  of  the  medical  officersi  the  officers 






of  diflpensaries,  and  the  charge  for  medi- 
cines should  be  a  chazge  on  the  common 
fhnd.  At  this  moment  half  the  medical 
offioeis'  salaries  are  charged  upon  the  Con- 
solidated Pund.  This  was  done  by  Sir 
Bobert  Peel,  and  in  practice  it  has  been 
attended  with  no  evil  consequences.  And 
in  dealing  with  the  salaries  of  these  gentle- 
men, and  placing  them  upon  the  common 
fund,  a  check  remains  with  the  Poor  Law 
Board,  without  whose  consent  no  salary 
can  be  giren.  [Sir  Gbobgb  Obey:  The 
common  fund  of  the  whole  metropolis?] 
The  common  fund  of  the  whole  metropolis. 
In  speaking  of  it,  I  hare  called  it  shortly 
''the  common  fund."  Then,  as  regards 
the  salaries.  I  do  not  mean  the  salaries 
of  assistant  OTcrseers  and  collectors,  but 
the  salaries  of  all  officers  actually  engaged 
in  the  administration  of  poor  relief  ought, 
I  think,  to  be  placed  on  the  common 
fund.  In  many  cases,  also,  I  think  when 
this  is  done  improvements  may  be  intro- 
duced. Poor  persons  have  to  travel  fre- 
quently to  great  distances  to  obtain  outdoor 
relief,  and  it  is  ver^  desirable  that  there 
should  be  more  relieying  officers,  or  more 
points  at  which  they  can  obtain  assistance. 
At  present  I  believe  the  very  applications 
for  assistance  often  bring  evils  in  their 
train ;  for  by  crowding  together  in  large 
numbers  at  a  particular  point  a  long 
detention  is  caused,  the  poor  have  their 
sickness  or  infirmity  much  increased  by 
being  kept  in  the  snow  or  the  rain  for  an 
unreasonable  time.  Begistration  and  vac- 
cination expenses  I  would  put  on  the 
common  fund.  These  are  small  chaiges, 
but  it  is  most  desirable  that  the  system  of 
which  they  form  part  should  be  mado  as 
effective  as  possible,  with  a  view  of  getting 
rid  of  that  horrible  and  disastrous  com- 
plaint, the  small-pox.  For  the  same  reason 
I  would  establish  the  small-pox  and  fever 
hospitals,  and  pay  the  expenses  out  of  the 
common  fund.  Small-pox  and  fever  are 
not  things  the  relief  of  which  can  be 
traded  in.  Nobody  will  go  into  a  small- 
pox or  fever  hospital  who  has  not  one  of 
those  diseases.  Patients  such  as  those  en- 
danger the  health  of  the  whole  population 
if  they  are  not  properly  cared  for,  and  if 
means  be  not  taken  to  prevent  the  infec- 
tion from  being  spread.  I  now  come  to 
the  children's  schools.  Great  efforts  are 
at  present  being  made  on  behalf  of  educa- 
tion,  some  calling  for  compulsoiy  education, 
and  some  for  other  systems.  The  district 
schools,  and  certified  schools,  and  schools 
under  tiie  Inspectors  of  the  Poor  Law] 

Mr,  Oaihot'no  Hardy  ' 

Board,  are  working  admiraUy  as  separate 
schools.    I  propose  by  this  Bill  that  we 
should  have  separate  schools,  and  that  the 
maintenanee  of  the  children  shall  be  paid 
out  of  the  common  fund  of  the  metropolis. 
The  building  will  be  provided  by  the  dis- 
trict.   I  have  now  to  consider  what  all 
these  charges  will  amount  to.    I  will  not 
go  into  the  details  now,  because  I  shall 
lay  on  the  table  papers  that  will  give  the 
fullest  information  on  the  subject.    I  pro- 
pose to  lay  the  Bill  at  once  on  the  table ; 
and  I  am  sure  that  hon.  Members  wiU  be 
able  to  judge  better  of  detaib  from  reading 
the  clauses  than  they  would  be  from  any 
description  which  I  might  give  them.    It 
is  right,  however,  that  I  should  answer 
some  of  the  questions  that  wiU  probably 
be  put  to  me.    The  City  of  London  is  the 
richest  union  in  the  metropoUs.  What  would 
be  the  effect  on  the  City  of  London  Union 
of  these  additional  chaiges  on  the  common 
fund.    They  would  increase  the  r^te  by 
3ld,  in  the  pound.  I  will  take  an  extreme 
case  on  the  opposite  side — St  George's, 
Southwark.  They  would  relieve  that  union 
by  reducing  the  rate  from  about  St.  to 
about  2f .  in  the  pound.    Adding  the  whole 
of  the  additional  or  new  chaiges  which  I 
think  will  arise  from  this  measure  if  you 
adopt  it,  a  sum  of  about  £60,000  per  an* 
num  will  have  to  be  raised.    Now,  Id,  rate 
raises  £61,000  ;  so  I  think  that  at  that  sum 
the  metropolis  may  purchase  a  very  great 
improvement  at  a  reasonably  cheap  rate. 
Those  improvements,  if  the  House  should 
think  them  improvements,  may  be  effected 
at  so  Cheap  a  rate  as  Id,  in  the  pound ; 
and,  although  this  rate  will  fall  on  the 
impoverished  as  well  as  on  the  richer 
unions,  it  is  to  be  borne  in  mind  that  the 
former  will  be  relieved  by  the  allocation 
of   expenses  with  which   they  are  now 
charged  on  the  common  fund.    In  order 
that  the  money  to  be  raised  should  be 
devoted  to  a  common   fund  it  will   be 
necessary,  as  in  the  case  of  the  police 
rate,  to  appoint  a  receiver  under  ike  Poor 
Law  Board.     And  instead  of  going  to 
the  Metropolitan  Board  of  Works,  which 
should  have  nothing  to  do  with  Uie  ma- 
nagement of  the  poor,  I  propose  to  zelieve 
them  of  their  present  duty  of  obtaining 
the  funds  for  the  houseless  poor,  and  to 
enact  that  the  Poor  Law  Boa^  shall  issue 
warrants  for  the  different  rates;  that  the 
receiver  who  shall  give  proper  security, 
shall  pay  the  money  into  the  Bank  of 
England,  and  that  he  shall  distribute  the 
funds  according  to  the  just  proportioiiA 



[Fxesatixx  8, 1867) 

Poor  Sm. 


dae  to  fhe  Beyeral  nnions  and  districts. 
I  suppose  it  will  be  asked*  farther,  what 
will  be  the  cost  of  the  buildings?  I 
have  already  said  that;  having  regard 
to  the  statement  of  the. Lunacy  Com- 
oiissionersy  the  lunatics  for  whom  the 
Bill  proposes  to  provide  cannot  be  looked 
on  as  Ihe  ordinary  class  of  lunatics  who 
have  some  chance  of  being  cured.  Those 
who  have  a  chance  of  cure  will  go  to  the 
ordinary  asylums;  and  where  the  cases 
are  chronio  some  patients  might  be  trans* 
ferred  thence  to  the  new  buildings,  in- 
stead of  being  kept  where  they  would 
only  be  in  the  way  of  inmates  more 
needing  special  care.  If  I  give  £50  a 
head  as  the  cost  of  the  asylums,  there 
being  2,000  lunatics,  the  cost  would 
be  £100,000.  Of  course,  I  speak  with 
great  reserve  on  this  subject.  I  know 
that  the  price  of  building  has  risen  very 
much;  but,  looking  at  all  the  circum- 
stances, I  believe  we  may  easUy  provide 
such  buildings  as  we  require  for  that  sum. 
In  addition  to  this,  I  think  we  should 
have  to  provide  for  at  least  2,000  more 
sick ;  and,  putting  down  the  cost  of  the 
building  necessary  for  their  accommoda- 
tion at  £60  a  head,  we^have  £120,000 
more.  Then  there  would  be  the  additional 
school  building,  which  would  cost  from 
£50,000  to  £70,000,  and  the  fever  and 
small-pox  hospitals,  which  would  take  from 
£50,000  to  £70,000  more.  It  would  thus 
appear  that  the  entire  buildings  would  cost 
about  £360,000,  or  say,  in  round  numbers, 
£400,000.  When  it  is  borne  in  mind  that 
many  unions  of  the  metropolis  would  be 
obliged  to  build  under  present  circum- 
stances, and  that  some  of  thorn  are  at  this 
moment  building,'it  will  be  seen  that  a  very 
oonsiderable  expenditure  for  new  buildings 
will  take  place,  even  should  this  Bill  not 
be  passed.  For  instance,  the  site  on  which 
Bt  M aitin's  Workhouse  now  stands  has 
been  bought  by  the  Government,  and  the 
guardians  will  be  able  to  build  on  a  hotter 
scale  with  the  money  which  they  will 
receive  for  the  present  house.  I  think, 
therefore,  that  I  am  safe  in  saying 
£400,000  would  be  the  extreme  limit.  It 
would  be  paid  off  in  yearly  sums.  The 
paymmt  for  the  first  year  would  be 
£40,000 ;  but  the  annual  payments  would 
become  less  after  that,  and  for  such  a 
sum  two- thirds  of  1^.  in  the  pound 
over  the  metropolis  would  be  the  required 
rating.  There  is  one  other  provision 
in  the  Bill  to  which  I  wish  to  allude 
before  oenduding.     It  is  one  conferring 

on  the  Poor  Law  Board  a  power  similar 
to  one  vested  in  the  Irish  Poor  Law 
Commissioners,  and  which,  though  I  be* 
lieve  never  exercised,  has  been  found 
effective  in  producing  the  desired  results. 
Though  I  intend  to  submit  to  the  House 
another  measure  applying  to  England  ge- 
nerally, in  respect  of  certain  minor  points, 
we  have  thought  it  right  at  once  to  ask 
Parliament  to  give  power  to  the  Poor  Law 
Board  to  appoint  proper  officers  in  the 
event  of  the  guardians  or  managers  de- 
clining to  do  so.  Though  I  believe  it 
never  will  be  necessary  to  exercise  this 
provision,  I  think  it  will  be  advisable  to 
give  some  less  expensive  and  more  speedy 
remedy  than  that  of  a  mandamus  in  case 
of  neglect  to  appoint  nurses  or  other 
officers.  Knowing  this  power  to  be  vested 
in  the  Poor  Law  Board,  I  think  those  in- 
trusted with  the  management  of  unions 
will  always  so  act  as  that  it  will  bo 
unnecessary  ever  to  exercise  it.  I  have 
now  only  to  thank  the  House  for  the 
patience  with  which  they  have  listened  to 
me.  I  can  assure  the  House  that  I  have' 
not  dealt  with  this  question  without  hav- 
ing given  the  subject  much  thought  and 
consideration.  I  have  endeavoured  as  far 
as  possible  to  come  to  a  just  and  satisfac- 
tory conclusion,  feeling  as  I  did  very 
deeply  the  responsibility  cast  upon  me  lesty 
while  endeavouring  to  mitigate  existing 
evils,  I  might  take  any  step  which  should 
lead  to  the  worst  of  all  evils— an  increase 
of  pauperism  in  the  country,  I  have 
limited,  as  far  as  seemed  to  me  possible  to 
do  so,  the  burdens  to  be  thrown  on  the 
poorer  parishes.  I  feel  very  much  for 
those  parishes,  and  I  cannot  help  throwing 
out  a  suggestion  as  to  what  might  probably 
be  done  at  a  future  time  in  the  way  of 
exceptional  relief.  Without  any  injury  to 
our  Poor  Law  system  might  not  power  be 
given  to  the  Poor  Law  Board  in  the  event 
of  any  sudden  and  extraordinary  calamity 
— such  as  an  outbreak  of  cholera — to  raise 
a  general  rate,  not  exceeding  I  (^.  in  the 
pound,  over  all  the  parishes  of  London  ? 
In  this  way  a  sum  of  £60,000  or  £70,000 
might  be  at  once  placed  at  the  disposal 
of  the  authorities  for  the  relief  of  the 
afflicted.  I  only  throw  that  out  as  a  sug- 
gestion. It  appears  to  me  that  it  would 
afford  us  a  means  of  meeting  some  of  the 
evils  with  which  we  have  had  to  contend,, 
without  leading  to  that  still  greater  evil 
to  which  I  have  just  referred.  I  feel 
satisfied  that  this  Bill  will  be  received  by 
hon.  Members  on  the  Opposition  side  in  a 






spirit  of  forbearance  andimpartiality.  This 
is  a  matter  to  which  no  party  feeling  can 
attach  itself.  We  have  only  one  object  in 
▼iew,  which  is  the  benefit  of  this  metro- 
polis-^to  do  a  senrice  both  to  the  rate- 
payers  and  to  the  saffering  poor,  whether 
in  workhouse  or  receiving  outdoor  relief. 
I  commend  the  measare  to  the  kind  con- 
sideration of  the  House,  assuring  them  that 
we  are  not  so  wedded  to  its  every  detail 
as  not  to  give  the  utmost  attention  to  any 
Amendment  which  may  be  proposed ;  but 
I  would  earnestly  beg  of  hon.  Members 
who  wish  for  larger  changes  to  take  care 
lest  in  grasping  at  a  shadow  they  should 
lose  the  substance  which  we  now  o£fer  to 
the  House.  The  right  hon.  Gentleman 
concluded  by  moving  for  leave  to  bring  in 

Mb.  AYETON  expressed  the  satisfac- 
tion he  felt  at  finding  that  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  the  president  of  the  Poor  Law 
Board,  at  so  early  a  period  of  his  political 
career,  had  applied  himself  to  a  considera- 
tion of  this  important  question,  which,  he 
was  sorry  to  say,  had  been  too  long  left  in 
its  present  state.  He  could  not  forget  that 
it  was  now  ten  years  since  he  had  brought 
the  subject  under  the  notice  of  the  House; 
and  in  vain  had  he  been  looking  for  some 
action  on  the  part  of  the  Department  over 
which  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  presided. 
Even  if  it  was  true  that  the  descriptions 
of  what  took  place  in  some  of  the  work- 
houses of  our  metropolis  were  somewhat 
exaggerated,  he  was  glad  that  by  the 
publication  of  those  accounts  the  press  had 
directed  public  attention  to  the  adminis- 
tration of  the  Poor  Law.  If  writers  of 
equal  ability  to  those  who  had  described 
the  workhouses  attended  at  the  bedsides 
of  the  poor  who  died  in  private  houses, 
they  would  find  material  for  reports  as 
painful  as  those  they  had  made  on  the 
condition  of  the  unfortunate  poor  people 
who  had  had  to  seek  indoor  relief.  He 
believed  that  the  true  source  of  all  the 
evils  connected  with  the  administration  of 
the  relief  to  the  poor  in  the  metropolis, 
had  been  the  injustice  attendant  on  the 
unequal  distribution  of  the  charges  in  the 
different  parishes.  As  long  as  that  injus- 
tice prevailed,  it  would  be  impossible  to 
deal  with  the  consequences  which  resulted 
^m  it.  He  was  glad  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  had  recognised  that  principle, 
and  had  proposed  to  extend  the  chai^ 
for  those  improvements  through  the  en- 
tire community  by  means  of  what  he 
termed  a  common  fund*  He  was  not 
Mr.  Oathome  Eardy 

going  at  pnsent  to  complain  of  the  mea- 
sure of  justice  which  the  right  hon.  Gen- 
tleman proposed  to  accord;  for  last  year 
he  ventured  to  suggest  to  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman's  predecessor  that  perhaps  the 
best  way  of  meeting  the  question  of  the 
equalization  of  the  poor  rates,  would  be 
not  to  attempt  at  once  to  subvert  the 
whole  administration  of  the  Poor  Law  of 
the  metropolis  by  one  measure,  but  to 
proceed  upon  the  principle  of  bringing 
from  time  to  time  other  and  different  daasea 
of  the  poor  on  a  common  fund  as  might 
be  found  convenient  and  practicable.    The 
right  hon.  Gentleman  had,  undoubtedly, 
teSken  several  classes  with  whom  it  would 
be  comparatively  easy  to  deal,  and  he 
appeared  to  have  stopped  at  the    very 
point  where  the  real  difficulties  of  the  case 
commenced.    Now,  he  did  not  complain  of 
that;   because  if  this  tentative  measare 
were  found  to  answer,  the  system  might  be 
extended,  and,  assisted  by  the  light  of 
experience,  they  might  extend  the  uniform 
charge  to    classes    remaining   excluded. 
There  was  only  one  point  to  which  he 
wished  to  draw  attention.    The  right  hon. 
Gentleman  had  not  explained  very  clearly 
what  was  to  ba  the  mode  of  administering 
the  common  fund.    It  was  suggested  that 
there  were  to  be  district  Boards,  and  if  00 
we  should  be  going  back  to  a  plan  which 
had  been  proposed  twice  before,  and  which 
on  each  occasion  turned  out  a  failure. 
For  his  part,  he  thought  it  a  pity  that  the 
attempt  should  be  made  for  the  tiiird  time. 
There  would    be  no   merit  in  dividing 
London  into  new  districts ;  but  what  was 
wanted   was   one    entire    administration 
which  would  deal  with  the  whole  subject, 
superintend  the  whole  of  the  distribution 
of  relief,  in  those  cases  which  were  em- 
braced in  the  present  BilL    Just  in  pro- 
portion as  it  was  attempted  to  rensombine 
and  ro-group  parishes  and  unions,  would 
unnecessary  expense  be  entailed,  and  the 
measure  be  rendered  inefficient  The  right 
hon.  Gentleman  had  suggested  that^  if  one 
Board  only  were  established,  it  would 
eclipse  and  overshadow  his  own ;  but  that 
was  a  rather  narrow  view  to  take  of  the 
question,  and  he  might  depend  upon  it  that^ 
as  long  as  he  presided  with  ability  over  his 
own  Board,  it  would  not  be  ovenhadowed 
by  any  other.  At  all  events,  he  did  not  think 
the  question  ought  to  be  embarrassed  by 
any  consideration  of  that  kind.    The  ques- 
tion was,  whether  it  were  desirable  to  have 
one  Board  to  superintend  the  infirmaries, 
dispensaries,  and  lunatic  asylums^  or  whe- 



(Februast  8,  \W!\ 



ther  there  should  be  a  mnltiplioity  of 
Boezds.^  The  ma^Btrates  of  the  county 
'veze  qoite  equal  to  deal  with  the  Innatio 
wflama  oi  Middlesex,  and  he  saw  no 
leaKm  why  a  Central  Board  should  not 
deal  with  Uie  infirmaries^  dispensaries,  and 
lonatie  asylums  in  the  metropolis.  He 
did  not  propose  to  discuss  the  practical 
hearings  of  the  measure  on  the  present 
oocasiffli;  but  he  hoped  tiie  right  hon. 
Gentleman  would  not  pledge  himself  too 
mneh  to  that  part  of  his  BiU.  In  oondu- 
oon,  he  expressed  his  opinion  that  we 
sbonld  do  well  to  deal  with  this  question 
by  degrees ;  for,'  if  the  system  now  pro- 
posed were  found  to  answer,  it  might  he 
extended  at  any  future  time.  He  was  desir- 
ov  before  he  sat  down  to  thank  the  right 
ban.  Gentleman  for  the  great  attention 
which  he  had  given  to  tbe  subject,  and  to 
opieas  the  pleasure  with  which  he  had 
listened  *tohiB  able  speech. 

Ynconzrr  ENFIELD  wished,  in  the  first 
plaee,  to  tender  bis  most  grateful  thanks  to 
the  right  hon,  Qentleman  opposite  f  Mr. 
Gatiiome  Hardy)  for  the  spirit  in  wnich 
he  had  approached  this  question ;  and,  in 
the  seeond,  to  assure  him  that  Ihe  sole 
reason  why  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  the 
Member  for  WolTCrhampton  (Mr.  C.  P. 
YilMers)  had  not  been  present  that  erening 
was  that  serere  indisposition  compelled  him 
to  remain  at  home.  With  regud  to  the 
Tarions  details  of  the  scheme,  he  could  only 
say  that  every  portion  of  it  would  receive 
the  most  impartial  consideration  on  his 
part  He  only  wished  now  to  tender  his 
thanks  to  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  for 
baring  so  earnestly  addressed  himself  to 
this  important  subject,  and  to  state  why 
tbe  right  hon.  Gentleman  the  Member  for 
UTolverfaampton  had  not  been  present  to 
hear  his  speech. 

Mr.  BHADY  also  thanked  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman  for  the  industry  and  ability 
he  had  displayed  since  he  had  presided 
o?er  the  Poor  Law  Board,  and  had  brought 
to  bear  upon  this  important  question.  It 
was  quite  clear  that  he  had  paid  great 
attention  to  it,  and  had  considered  it  in  a 
^irit  of  perfect  impartiality.  The  altera- 
tums  now  proposed  were  highly  important 
hi  a  medical  point  of  view,  and  would 
remedy  many  of  the  erils  the  pressure  of 
which  was  now  most  severely  felt.  After 
paying  a  high  oorapliment  to  the  editor  of 
Tie  Laneet  for  the  considerable  expense 
to  which  he  had  put  himself  for  the  pur- 
pose of  collecting  accurate  and  ample  in- 
tonation on  this  subject,  the  hon.  Member 

^proceeded  to  say  that  he  hoped  medical 
officers  would  for  the  fhtnre  be  fi^eed  from 
the  influences  which  had  hitherto  been 
brought  to  bear  by  the  guardians  most 
injuriously  upon  the  proper  performance 
of  their  duties.  They  were  at  the  dis- 
posal of  the  guardians,  who  might  dismiss 
them  or  continue  them  in  their  offices  as 
they  thought  fit ;  and  it  was  well  known 
that  in  many  instances  medical  officers  had 
been  turned  out  or  harassed  out  of  tiieir 
office  because  they  were  disposed  to  order 
for  the  patients  more  nounshment  than 
the  guardians  approved  of.  As  long  as 
this  was  allowed  the  administration  of  the 
medical  department  of  the  Poor  Law  must 
continue  to  be  unsatisfactory.  The  medical 
officers  ought  also  to  bo  better  paid.  If 
this  were  done  the  complaints  which  had 
been  heard  of  the  inefficient  performance 
of  their  duties  would  not  have  to  be  re- 
peated ;  but  it  was  unreasonable  to  suppose 
that,  while  they  were  miserably  underpaid, 
thoy  would  be  found  ready  to  devote  tbeir 
time  and  to  endanger  their  lives  cheerfully 
in  attendance  upon  the  poor.  It  was  a 
piece  of  injustice  to  the  poor  so  long  as 
their  medical  men  continued  to  be  thus 

Ma.  LOCKE  said,  that  as  he  had  always 
taken  the  deepest  interest  in  this  subject, 
he  was  unwilling  to  let  the  opportunity 
pass  without  tendering  to  tbe  nght  hon. 
Gentleman  (Mr.  Gathome  Hardy)  his 
thanks  for  the  introduction  of  the  Bill, 
and  likewise  for  the  pains  which  be 
had  taken  in  investigating  the  question, 
and  tbe  great  ability  he  had  displayed  in 
introducing  his  Bill.  When  he  waited 
upon  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  with  tbe 
deputation  which  bad  been  referred  to  by 
him  that  evening,  be  saw  that  the  sympa* 
thies  and  views  of  tbe  right  hon.  Gende- 
mon  were  sound,  and  that  whatever  was 
done  would  be  done  in  the  right  direction. 
Tbe  right  hon.  Gentleman  had  only  stopped 
short  of  carrying  out  the  complete  proposal 
of  tbe  deputation^ — namely,  the  equalisa- 
tion of  the  poor  rates  in  the  metropolis, 
because  be  thought  certain  difficulties 
would  arise  from  there  being  no  sufficient 
check  upon  a  too  lavish  expenditure  in  the 
relief  of  the  poor.  He  believed,  however, 
that  as  soon  as  the  present  plan  was 
adopted,  it  would  be  found  that  the  prin- 
ciple of  the  Bill  might  be  safely  extended 
to  the  equaJixation  of  the  whole  poor  rate 
throughout  the  metropolis.  The  Beport  of 
the  Poor  Relief  Committee  did  not,  indeed, 
as  the  right  hon.  Qentleman  had  saidy 




Uniimi  Sill. 


contain  a  direct  xcoommendation  in  favoar 
of  tixe  equalization  of  the  poor  lates  of 
the  metropolis ;  bat  it  stated  that  the 
circumstanoes  of  the  metropolis  were  so 
peculiar  that  in  any  legislation  to  extend 
the  area  of  charge  or  management  it 
would  be  necessary  to  have  regard  to  those 
circumstances.  With  respect  to  some  of 
those  peculiaritieB  which  pressed  so  heavily 
on  the  poorer  parishes,  there  was  no 
doubt  that  the  Bill  of  the  right  hen.  Gen- 
tleman would  provide  a  remedy,  though  he 
did  not  pledge  himself  to  all  the  details 
of  the  Bill,  which  would  be  matter  for 
great  consideration  when  they  were  before 
the  House.  But  in  the  principle  of  the 
Bill  he  heartily  agreed ;  and,  with  other 
hon.  Qentlemen,  he  thanked  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  for  the  great  labour  he  had 
bestowed  on  the  subject,  and  the  distin- 
guished  ability  with  which  he  had  treated 
it,  and  for  the  proposals  contained  in  the 
Bill,  which  would  be  appreciated  and  ap- 
proved of  by  the  whole  metropolis. 

Mb.  Aldbrman  LUSK  said,  that  all 
must  admire  the  spirit  in  which  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman  had  approached  a  difficult 
subject,  the  clear  and  lucid  statement  he 
had  made,  and  the  tone  and  temper  in 
whioh  he  had  brought  the  matter  forward. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

Bill  for  the  establishment  in  the  Metropolis  of 
Asjlums  for  the  Sick,  Insane,  and  other  classes  of 
the  Poor,  and  of  Dispensaries ;  and  for  the  dis- 
tribation  over  the  Metropolis  of  portions  of  the 
ohar^  lor  Poor  Relief;  and  for  other  purposes 
relating  to  Poor  Relief  in  the  Metropolis,  ovxlered 
to  be  brought  in  bj  Mr.  Gazhobnk  U^u>t  and 
Hr.  Eablb. 

Bill  presented,  and  read  tho  first  time.  [Bill  9.] 


Mb.  WALPOLE,  in  moving  for  leave 
to  introduee  a  Bill  for  facilitating  in 
certain  casoa  the  proceedings  of  the  Com- 
mifieioners  appointed  to  make  inquiry  re« 
apecting  trades  unions,  and  other  associa- 
tions of  employers  of  workmen,  said : 
The  Bill,  Sir,  I  now  ask  leave  to  intro- 
duce  is  of  a  somewhat  unusual  character, 
and  the  circumstances  which  have  given 
rise  to  it  are  also  peculiar.  I  will  briefly 
refer  to  them.  Many  hon.  Qentlemen 
will  recollect  that  in  the  autumn  of  last 
year  a  very  violent  outrage  was  com- 
mitted in  Sheffield,  an  attempt  having 
been  made  to  blow  up  the  house  of  a 
Mr.  Femeyhough,  with  its  occupants.  \ 
Laige  rewards  were  offered  for  the  deteo- ' 
Mr.  Lock$  1 

tion  of  the  perpetrators  of  this  atroeioiui 
deed.    The  Government,  in  answer  to  ap* 
peab  made  to  it,  also  offered  a  reward,  and 
a  promise  of  pardon  to  any  one  oonoemed, 
except  the  actual  perpetrator,  who  wool<i 
give  information  on  the  subject.    All  these 
offers  and  promises  fiBtiled,  and  the  perpe- 
trator of  the  deed  is  still  unknown.      In. 
consequence  of  the  failure  of  these  efforts 
to  discover  the  guilty  parties^  applicatioa 
was  made  to  the  Government,  on  the  part 
of  those  most  intimately  connected  with 
the  trade  of  Sheffield,  that  extraordinary 
measures  should  be  taken  for  the  detection 
not  merely  of  this  offence,  but  of  similar 
crimes  before  committed.    A  deputation 
attended  at  the  Home  Office,  headed  br 
the  hon.  Gentlemau  the  Member  for  Shef- 
field (Mr.  Boebuck),  and  he  stated,  on  the 
part  of  the  inhabitants  of  Sheffield,  how 
earnestly  they  desired  that  the  Government 
should  teke  some  steps  for  the  discovery  of 
this  deed.  It  was  pointed  out  by  the  deputa« 
tion  that  other  and  repeated  offences  had 
been  committed  of  a  similar  character, 
some  of  less,  some  of  equal  atrocity  ;  and 
there  was  placed  in  my  hand  a  list  of  200 
cases  within  the  last  twenty  years,  in  which 
it  was  alleged  that  workmen  had  been  as- 
sailed.   "Emi  of  all  they  had  been  warned 
by  threatening  letters,  Uien  they  had  their 
toob  injured  and  their  leather  bands  de- 
stroyed, and  finally  incendiarism  and  gun* 
powder  had  been  introduced  when  the 
other  warnings  hsd  been  found  to  be  in- 
sufficient.   Under  these  circumstances,  it 
was  pressed  upon  the  Government  that 
even  if  only  to  prevent  suspicion  resting 
upon  the  wrong  persons,  it  would  be  ne- 
cessary to  confer  extraordinary  powers, 
and  that  the  Government  should  apply  for 
them  to  the  Legislature.    This  deputation 
was  followed  by  another,  headed  also  by 
my  hon.  and  learned  Friend  the  Member 
for  Sheffield,  from  what  are  commonly 
known  as  trades  unions,  which  pressed  upon 
the  Government  with  equal  eamestnesa 
tiie  importance  of  taking  extraordinsry 
measures  for  discovering  the  real  perpetra- 
tors of  these  outrages.     I  think  I  cannot 
do  better  than  read  to  the  House  the  words 
of  the  hon.  Member  for  Sheffield,  addressed 
to  myself  on  the  part  of  those  who  then 
attended  with  him.    Speaking  of  the  trades 
unions,  he  said — 

"  T hej  beliere  that  a  fall  inquiry  will  prore  that 
trades  unions  hare  been  and  are  of  great  benefit 
to  tlie  working  classes  and  through  them  to  the 
country  at  large;  that  they  are  wholly  innocent  of 
any  such  foul  prooeedings  as  are  bid  to  their 
charge ;  that  thfiir  oondaot  has  been  wise  and  jost 



{FsBKUAItT  8,  1867) 

Vnum»  Bill. 


to  tMr  omployen  atireU  at  themielvM ;  and  tiiiit 
the  more  Marching  it  the  loqairy  the  more  patent 
and  obfioui  will  appear  the  wisdom  of  those  who 
hare  directed  the  proceedings  of  these  unions,  and 
the  immense  adrantage  to  trade  and  the  eoontry 
at  laige  from  their  existence.  Sooh  being  their 
firm  conviction,  they  earnestly  pray  yon  to  accede 
to  their  request,  and  that  yon  will  mo?e  the  House 
of  Commons  to  pass  a  law  creating  a  Conmiisaion 
with  ample  powers  to  make  all  reqnisite  inqniries 
into  this  most  momentous  subjeet,  and  that  you  will 
support  suoh  Motion  with  ail  the  powers  of  thia 

I  felt  it  to  be  my  daty  to  communicate  to 
my  Colleagues  the  appeal  thus  made  to  me, 
and  to  submit  to  them  that  an  application 
of  this  kind,  ooming  both  from  the  Em- 
ployers and  the  employed,  rendered  it  ne- 
cessary to  consider  first  whether  Parliament 
should  not  be  applied  to  for  extraordinary 
powers  with  reference  to  these  outrages ; 
and.  in  the  second  place,  if  such  an  appli- 
cation were  made,  whether  the  opportunity 
ought  not  to  be  taken  of  inquiring  fully 
and  completely  into  the  working  of  trades 
unions  and  similar  associations.  The  Go- 
Yemment  considered  that  such  an  appeal 
could  not  be  resisted ;  and  the  only  ques- 
tion, therefore,  in  their  minds  was  whether 
the  inquiry  should  be  limited,  in  the  first 
instance,  to  the  occurrences  at  Sheffield,  or 
should  embrace  the  whole  subject  to  which 
I  have  referred.  As  regards  Sheffield,  I 
think  it  will  be  admitted  on  all  sides  that, 
in  the  face  of  the  double  appeal  made  to 
us,  we  could  not  but  accede  to  the  desired 
inyestigation.  That  town  is,  in  some  re- 
spects, peculiarly  circumstanced  with  re- 
gard to  trades  unions,  I  am  afraid  I  must 
say,  in  passing,  that  it  has  obtained  an 
unenYiable  notoriety  for  outrages  of  this 
description.  But  thero  are  also  circum- 
stances peculiar  to  it  which  make  it  the 
most  advantageous  place  in  which  an  in- 
quiry such  as  that  now  proposed  could  take 
place.  In  Sheffield  there  are  a  large  number 
of  trades  unions ;  many  of  these  are  in  as- 
sociation with  others,  and  there  are  some 
trades  without  unions  at  all.  There  is 
also  this  further  peculiarity,  that  the  dif- 
ference between  the  workman  or  artisan 
and  the  employer  or  capitalist  is  less  broad 
and  distinct,  at  least,  in  the  cutlery  trade 
than  it  is  in  most  of  the  other  mani^actur- 
ing  districts  of  the  country.  The  line 
between  the  employers  and  the  employed 
in  the  great  majority  of  the  lai^e  manu- 
fiMturing  towns  is  plain  and  obvious.  The 
capitalists  provide  everything  except  the 
labour.  But  in  the  ouUery  trade  the  artisan 
not  merely  furnishes  his  labour,  but  he 
rents  what  are  called  the  wheek,  and  in 

that  respect  he  is  master  of  his  own  time 
and  of  his  own  resources.  These  wheels, 
connected  by  bands  with  the  water  wheel, 
are  thus  rented  by  the  artisan,  the  result 
being  that  in  this  double  capacity — partly 
as  owner  of  the  wheel  and  partly  as  work- 
man— he  is  not  merely  in  &06e  capacities 
master  of  his  own  time,  but  he  is  also 
capable  of  sustaining  severe  injuries  at  the 
hands  of  any  disco^tented  workmen  who 
may  think  they  have  reason  to  find  fitult 
wiUi  him.  A  common  way  of  showing 
resentment  against  a  fellow- workman  is  to 
deprive  him  of  the  tools  of  his  trade,  steal 
his  wheel- bands,  or  disable  his  machinery 
in  other  respects.  At  last,  if  these  pro- 
ceedings prove  inefiectual,  recourse  is  had 
to  the  more  flagrant  outrages  to  which  I 
have  already  referred.  In  this  state  of 
affairs  it  is  impossible  for  Parliament  to 
shut  its  eyes  to  the  importance  of  having 
a  thorough  investigation  set  on  foot,  espe- 
cially in  the  face  of  the  applications  which 
have  been  made  by  all  parties  for  inquiry. 
The  Oovemment  have  therefore  arrived 
at  the  conclusion,  in  regard  to  Sheffield, 
that  it  is  for  the  benefit  of  all  concerned 
that  special  investigation  should  take  place; 
and  I  have  now  to  ask  leave  to  bring  in 
the  Bill  of  which  I  have  given  notice. 
But  this  further  point  was  brought  sped- 
fically  under  my  notice  by  two  depu- 
tations, headed  by  the  hon.  and  learned 
Member  for  Sheffield  —  namely,  if  you 
have  an  inquiry  at  all,  has  not  the  time 
come  when  the  fullest  inquiry  should  be 
made  into  these  trades  unions  and  other 
associations  i  Is  it  not  desirable  that  the 
inquiry  should  be  in  the  largest  and  most 
comprehensive  form,  so  that  the  evil  or 
good  of  these  unions  may  equally  be 
brought  out,  and  the  law  complained  of 
on  the  one  side  or  the  other  so  improved, 
as  to  contribute  to  the  mutual  benefit  both 
of  the  employers  and  the  employed  ?  That 
was  the  grave  and  difficult  question  sub- 
mitted to  the  Oovemment  in  the  course  of 
the  autumn;  and  it  appeared  to  the  Gk>- 
vernment  that  there  were  two  reasons  why 
such  an  inquiry  would  be  most  advanta- 
geous. The  first  is  the  uncertain,  and  I 
may  say,  after  looking  very  fully  into  the 
questioD,  unsatisfactory  state  of  the  law. 
The  second  is  that  the  subject  is  but  ill 
understood  by  those  who  are  most  inter- 
ested in  it.  The  frdler  the  inquiry,  the 
better  will  the  subject  be  understood  by 
the  country.  The  facts  of  the  case  being 
brought  to  the  knowledge  of  an  impartiid 
tribunal,  it  will  then  report  to  the  Queen 




Uhtans  Bill. 


and  to  Parliament  the  result  of  their  in- 
qniries  before  legislation  is  attempted. 
These  are  the  reasons  which  appear  to  me 
to  be  absolutely  irresistible  in  the  present 
state  of  affairs  in  favour  of  such  an  in- 
quiry. Upon  both  P  may  take  the  liberty 
of  adding  a  few  words.  The  law  of  this 
country,  independent  of  the  common  law 
—the  doctrine  of  conspiracy — is  entirely 
based  upon  the  Act  passed  in  the  sixth  year 
of  the  reign  of  George  lY.  Before  that 
Act  was  passed,  from  the  earliest  period, 
the  law  relating  t6  combination  was  in 
every  respect  adverse  to  the  workmen.  The 
earliest  statute  relating  to  combination  was 
passed  in  the  reign  of  Edward  III.  From 
that  time  to  the  reign  of  George  III.  a  series 
of  statutes  were  passed  prohibiting  combi- 
nations, either  for  the  purpose  of  raising 
wages,  or  for  the  purpose  of  limiting  the 
hours  of  work,  or  for  the  purpose  of 
attempting  to  control  any  manufacture,  or 
for  imposing  restraints  upon  masters, 
either  with  regard  to  the  hire  of  assistance 
or  the  employment  of  labourers.  The  ob- 
ject of  some  of  these  statutes  nobody  pro- 
bably would  find  fault  with.  But  the 
object  of  others  was  a  direct  interference 
with  the  freedom  of  labour.  It  was  under 
these  circumstances  that  in  the  year  1824 
Mr.  Hume  obtained  the  appointment  of  a 
Committee  of  this  House,  which  went  fully 
into  the  whole  subject,  and  that  Committee 
reported  that  the  law  respecting  these  com- 
binations had  not  prevented  them — that  in 
spite  of  the  law  combinations  existed — 
that  they  existed  in  the  worst  form  in 
which  combinations  could  exist — ^namely, 
as  secret  societies  with  secret  oaths.  The 
Committee  drew  from  these  facts  the  na- 
tural conclusion  that  such  a  state  of  the 
law  could  not  properly  be  maintained. 
The  Act  of  6  Geo.  lY.,  framed  on  the 
Keport,  enabled  workmen,  if  they  could, 
to  obtain  from  their  employers  higher 
wages,  or  more  limited  hours  of  work; 
but,  at  the  same  time,  the  Committee 
condemned  tin  toto  any  attempt  to  con- 
tinue such  combinations,  if  they  were  to  ex- 
ercise by  violence  or  threat  any  restraint 
upon  the  freedom  of  others  in  the  prosecu- 
tion of  their  work  or  in  the  employment 
of  labour.  This  is  clearly  shown  by  {he 
Besolutions  of  the  Committee,  the  preamble 
of  the  statute,  and  the  speech  of  Mr. 
Wallace,  the  President  of  the  Board  of 
Trade,  who  introduced  the  Bill.  The 
seventh  Resolution  come  to  by  Mr.  Hume's 
Committee  runs  as  follows : — 
«« That  it  is  the  ofttiiioii  of  this  Committee  tbat 
Hr.  Walpoh 

mMters  and  workmen  sbould  be  fi«ed  from  soeh 
restrictions  as  regard  the  rate  of  wages  and  the 
hours  of  working,  and  be  left  at  perfect  libertj  to 
make  such  agreements  as  they  may  nautoall/  think 

And  the  eleventh  Besolation  asserts — 

'*  That  it  is  absolutely  necessary,  when  repeal- 
ing the  combination  laws,  to  enact  such  a  law  as 
may  efficiently  and  by  snmoaary  process  punish 
either  workmen  or  masters  who  by  threats,  intU 
midation,  or  acts  of  Tidenoe  shonld  interfere  with 
that  perfect  freedom  which  ought  to  be  allowed 
to  each  party  of  employing  his  labour  and  capital 
in  the  manner  he  may  deem  most  adrantageoos." 

The  preamble  of  the  statute  states  that — 

'*  It  is  expedient  to  nutke  further  proTision  as 

well  for  the  security  and  personal  freedom  of  in« 
dividual  workmen  in  the  disposal  of  their  skill 
and  labour  as  for  the  security  of  the  property  and 
persons  of  masters  and  employers." 

Mr.  Wallace's  remarks  are  in  the  same 
spirit  as  the  KesolutionB  and  preamble 
which  I  have  quoted,  and  I  look  upon  his 
speech  as  the  ke^  to  the  measure  which 
was  passed,    Mr.  Wallace  said— 

"  He  was  no  friend  to  the  principle  of  the  laws 
which  had  been  repealed.    He  did  not  wish  to  see 
them  re^nacted,  but  he  wished  that  the  common 
law  as  it  had  stood  before  should  be  again  brought 
intoioroe.  •  .  •  By  that  law  soflBcient  powers  were 
giTcn  to  the  workmen  forthe'preserrationof  thsir 
own  interests.    They  were  permitted  to  meet  lor 
the  purpose  of  obtainmg  an  increase   of  their 
wages ;  but  if  they  went  Myond  this,  and  attempt- 
ed to  mix  up  any  intimidation  of  others  in  their 
schemes,  it  was  going  too  fiir.     The  object  of  the 
BiU  was  to  keep  up  this  distinotion,  and  every- 
thing beside  was  left  to  the  operation  of  the  com- 
mon law.  .  .  .  The  principle  of  the  Bill  now  be- 
fore the  nouse  was  to  make  idl  associations  ille- 
gal, excepting  those  for  the  purpose  of  settling 
such  amount  of  wages  as  would  be  a  &ir  remune- 
ration to  the  worknum." — [2  Eamard,  xiii.  14.0L] 

Mr.  Wallace  should  have  added — and  no 
doubt  it  was  his  intention  to  add — that 
associations  would  also  be  permitted  for 
the  purpose  of  settling  such  amount  of 
wages,  and  also  regulating  such  hours  of 
labour,  as  would  be  a  fair  remuneration  for 
the  workman.    That  was  the  object  of  the 
Bill.    The  principle  was  simply  this— to 
draw  a  distinction  between  the  use  and 
the  abuse  of  that  liberty  which  capital 
and  labour  had  an  equal  right  to  daiiOi 
and  that  was,  I  have  no  doubt,  the  princi- 
le  which  was  to  be  substituted  for  the 
aw  which  existed  before.     The  desire 
of  Parliament  was  to  give  libertj  to  la- 
bourers to  act  in  combination  when  their 
object  was  legitimate  and  reasonable^  and 
to  restrain  them  from  combining  to  abuse 
the  liberty  accorded  to  them.    It  was  in- 
tended, therefore,  to  leave  untouched  the 
common  laWf  and  nothing  was  done  wiUi 




{FSBXITAIIT  89  18671 

Unmi  sat. 


to  thfttmihe  Aatof  Parliameni 
The  eoDfleqiieDee  has  been  that  in  leaTing 
imtiwiched  that  part  of  the  Bubjeot  quea- 
tMU  aocm  aroae  which  ocmiplioated  the 
natter  Teiy  much — ^namely,  how  far  the 
eoamon-law  doctrine  of  oonapiraoy  was 
^plieable  to  trades  nniona.  There  are 
three  poinia  which  show  how  mmatiBfactory 
IB  the  atate  of  the  law  at  the  preaent  mo- 
auBt  Firaty  with  reference  to  the  com* 
BM»-]aw  doetrine  of  oonapiraqry  a  dictum 
was  laid  down  by  one  of  the  Judges — that 
althongh  a  person,  a  single  individual, 
iiigfat  do  an  act  which  would  not  subject 
kim  to  an  indictment,  yet  if  two  or  more 
iadiTidnala  did  the  same  act  they  might 
subject  themaelyes  to  an  indictmeot  for 
eoDspiraoy.  And  the  illustration  given  by 
tkeleemed  Jndge  wastaken  from  the  wages 
question — nanidy,  that  a  single  workman 
was  perfeetly  at  liberty  to  insbt  that  he 
would  not  work  unless  he  had  a  certain 
amoant  of  wagea;  yet  if  two  or  three 
wodosien  combined  for  that  purpose,  in  the 
eye  of  the  law  it  amounted  to  a  conspi- 
racy. Ko  doabt  a  more  liberal  and  a  more 
jest  interpretation  has  since  been  adopted; 
but  still  the  law  is  not  clearly  defined,  for 
aoeoiding  to  that  interpretation,  although 
itis  tmly  aaid  that  every  conspiracy  im- 
plies a  eombination,  every  combination 
doea  not  necessarily  imply  a  conspiracy; 
and  I  beliere  the  law  at  this  moment 
flwy  be  taken  to  be  that  a  combina- 
tiott  to  eonatitnte  a  conspiracy  must  be  the 
eomlnnation  of  persons  to  do  an  unlawful 
act,  or  to  do  an  act  which  may  be  lawful 
by  uidawfol  means.  But,  then,  the  House 
will  see  that  that  very  definition  of  com- 
bioation  and  conspiracy  leaves  one  point 
entirely  nncertain,  and  it  is  owing  to  that 
aaoertainty  that  considerable  difficulty  has 
arisan  in  several  recent  cases,  and  eepe- 
daUy  in  the  last  case.  The  uncertainhr 
is  as  to  what  is  and  what  is  not  unlawful. 
Aa  applicable  to  this  question,  there  are 
two  oases  of  great  importance— the  one 
tiiat  of  '<  Hilton  9.  Eckersley,"  and  the 
other  that  of ''  Hornby  p.  Close."  In  the 
fiirmer  case  several  employers  bound  them- 
selves in  a  bond,  under  a  penalty  of  £500, 
Bot  to  employ  workmen  except  upon  certain 
tsrais  and  conditions.  One  of  those  who 
bad  Bobsoribed  acted  in  oppoaition  to  the 
sgrsenaent^  and  an  action  waa  brought 
against  him  to  recover  the  penalty  to 
which  he  had  rendered  himself  liable. 
The  Goort  decided  that»  although  there 
vaa  Botfaing  in  tiie  bond  or  the  subscrip- 
tiflii  (0  lender  it  ao  ilh^  aa  to  sulgeot 

the  subscriber  to  criminal  proceedings,  yet, 
inasmuch  as  the  nature  of  the  bond  implied 
a  restraint  on  trade  and  manufacture,  it 
waa  illegal  in  another  sense— that  is,  it 
could  not  be  enforced  in  a  civil  court. 
The  case  of  **  Bom^  p.  Close"  was  just 
the  reverse  of  this.  In  that  case  a  number 
of  working  men,  forming  themselves  into 
a  society,  had  placed  their  money  in  the 
hands  of  a  treasurer,  and  brought  an  ac- 
tion to  recover  the  money.  The  daim  waa 
resisted  on  the  ground  that,  though  aome 
of  the  rules  of  the  society  were  such  as 
were  usaally  adopted  by  friendly  societies, 
yet  others  were  such  as  regulated  the 
action  of  trades  unions,  and  were  calcu- 
lated to  act  as  a  reatraint  upon  trade.  The 
judgment  of  the  Lord  Chief  Justice  haa 
put  before  us  very  plainly  this  question 
as  to  the  legality  of  the  Act,  and  of  ita 
illegality  at  Uie  same  time  as  regards  any 
action  in  the  civil  courts— 

••  Ho  f nits  agreed  with  Mr.  MelHsh  that  if  tho 
main  object  of  the  society  was  that  of  boneTolenco, 
though  the  mlet  might  haTc  goae  a  little  ftirther . 
or  a  little  leu,  that  it  was  one  coming  within 
the  9th  section  of  the  Act ;  bat  here  the  ycry 
purpose  and  existence  of  the  society  was  not 
merely  that  of  carrying  ont  those  objects  for 
whnh  benevolent  societies,  so-called,  were  estab- 
lished ;  bat  also  for  the  porpoie  of  carrying  oot 
a  trades  union,  under  a  yery  generally  understood 
combination  by  which  men  bound  thomseWes  not 
to  work  except  under  certain  conditions,  and  to 
support  themselres  when  out  of  employment  in 
conformity  with  the  interests  and  wishes  of  the  body 
at  hunge.  Ue  was  &r  from  saying  that  a  tradea 
union  so  constituted,  and  for  such  a  purpose,  would 
bring  the  members  within  the  criminal  law.  On 
the  same  principle  that  a  combination  of  masters 
for  a  certain  purpose  was  so  far  illegal  in  re- 
spect of  cItU  rights  that  it  could  not  be  enforced, 
so  he  thought  that  a  civil  action  brought  on 
these  rules  would  be  held  to  be  illegid.  Ue 
thought,  for  two  reasons,  that  this  society  could 
not  DC  brought  within  the  provisions  of  the 
Friendly  Societies'  Act— first,  because  the  pur- 
poses for  which  trades  unions  were  organised 
were  not  analocons  to  those  of  benefit  societies ; 
and  secondly,  because  this  arrangement,  though 
not  criminal,  yet,  being  in  restraint  of  trade,  they 
were  by  the  law  of  the  land  illegal." 

Now  that  state  of  the  law  is  certainly  not 
satisfactory.  It  ought  to  be  more  clearly 
defined  what  are  the  rules  which  make  it 
illegal  for  any  combination  of  persons  to 
take  place ;  because  unless  it  is,  the  right 
which  they  have  of  enforcing  from  those 
who  have  their  money  anv  civil  right  is 
very  questionable.  It  ought  also  to  be  so 
denned,  that  the  members  of  these  societies 
may  not  under  cover  of  a  benevolent  pur- 
pose attempt  to  do  something  that  is  con« 
trary  to  law  or  in  restraint  of  tradoi    The 




VmoM  sat. 


question  then  aiueB  whether  the  roles  of 
these  societies  cannot  he  so  regulated  hy 
law  as  to  draw  the  line  hetween  that 
which  is  legal  and  that  which  is  illegal; 
so  that  in  the  one  case  persons  may  know 
that  if  legal  their  rights  wiU  he  secured, 
and  that  if  illegal  t£ey  ought  not  to  at- 
tempt to  enter  into  such  societies.    In 
saying  this  I  do  not  wish  to  give  an  opi- 
nion as  to  what  should  ultimately  be  Uie 
la^  of  the  land,  because  that  must  depend 
upon  the  result  of  the  inquiry  about  to  be 
instituted.     On  th^  one  hand,  when  you 
find   these  societies   extending,   and  in- 
creasing in  magnitude,  and  consider  that 
they  were  originally  established  to  give 
themselves  perfect   freedom  with  regard 
to  their  own  labour,  it  is  impossible  to 
ignore  their  existence  or  to  deny  their 
claims.    On  the  other  hand,  if  they  at- 
tempt to  obtain  through  the  instrumen- 
tality of  these  combinations  something 
whidi  the  law  does  not  allow,  and  cannot 
allowy  then  the  line  ought  so  to  be  drawn 
Jhat  they  ought  not  to  be  permitted  to 
claim  a  right  which  is  not  giren  to  them. 
But  it  appears  to  me  that,  do  what  you 
will— even  if  you  can  distinguishy  wmch 
I  believe  you  may,  between  what  wiU  give 
these  societies  a  legal  existence  and  that 
which  ought  to  be  restrained  if  beyond  the 
law — ^vet  one  of  the  greatest  evils  of  all — 
that  of  locks-out  on  the  ooe  hand  and  strikes 
on  the  other «— will  not  be  lessened  until 
you  can  find  something  by  which  the  difibr- 
ences  between  the  employers  of  labour  and 
the  employed  can  be  satisfactorily  settled. 
I  consider  that  one  of  the  most  important, 
if  not  the  most  important,  objects  of  in- 
quiry  will  be,  whether  arbitration  or  con- 
ciliation courts,  as  they  are  called,  or  some 
other  tribunal  may  not  be  established,  in 
which  both  parties  would  have  equal  con- 
fidence, for  the  purpose  of  adjusting  their 
differences  before  they  arrive  at  that  point 
which  is  fatal,  not  only  to  themselves,  but 
to  the  best  interests  of  the  country.    It 
will  be  necessary  therefore  that  the  Oom- 
mission,  if  appointed,  shall  have  some  per- 
son of  great  judicial  eminence  to  direct  the 
inquiry,  so  as  to  leave  the  law  no  longer 
in  its  present  uncertain  and  unsatisfactory 
state,  and  to  suggest  for  the  mutual  satis- 
&ction  of  both  employer  and  employed 
some  tribunal  by  means  of  which  their 
differences  may  be  adjusted.  I  believe  that 
no  legislation  whatever  can  be  more  im- 
portant than  that  which  would  accomplish 
this  great  and  most  desirable  object.    I 
sttid  before,  that  it  was  not  meidy  on  the 

46*.  Walpok 

ground  of  the  nnoertainty,  and  therefore^ 
to  some  extent,  the  unsatisfoctory  state  o£ 
the  law,  that  I  thought  the  time  had  coin3 
when  this  inquiry  should  be  made.    I  said 
also  that  the  subject  was  imperfectly  nn^^ 
derstood,  and,  from  all  I  can  hear,  both. 
on  the  part  of  the  masters  and  of  the  men, 
they  do  not  seem  to  have  been  brouglifc 
into  such  a  position  that  the  views  of 
each  could  be  thoroughly  understood  hy 
the   other.    Although  both  have   givea 
much  consideration  to  the  subject  from 
their  own  point  of  view,  the  different 
opinions  entertained   respecting  it  havo 
never  hitherto   been  brought  before  one 
tribunal  where  they  can  be  compared  and 
sifted,  and  where  each  party  may^under- 
stand  the  views  of  the  other.    If  this  in* 
quiry  attains  that  object,  we  shdl  then 
have  before  us,  for  the  purpose  of  legisla- 
tion, a  full  and  Complete  exposition  of  the 
views  and  opinions  on  both  sides,  in  order 
that  we  may  then  settle  the  law  upon  a 
satisfactory  basis.   The  people  of  Shield, 
workmen  as  well  as  masters,  having  so- 
licited inquiry  in  order  to  detect  the  atro- 
cious crime  lately  committed  there,  I  ven- 
ture to  think  that  the  opportunity  may 
well  be  taken,  and  ought  to  be  taken,  to 
consider  the  whole  subject,  in  order  that 
Parliament  may  afterwards  apply  the  best 
remedy  which  can  be  densed.  It  was  said 
on  the  first  night  of  the  Session  by  my 
right  hon.  Friend  (Mr.  Oladstone),  lOlnd- 
ing   to   the   paragraph   in   the    Queen's 
Speech  upon  this  subject,  that  he  hoped 
those  who  recommended  the  Commission 
did  not  mean  to  interfere  with  the  perKsct 
freedom  either  of  capital  or  of  labour,  so 
long  as  nothing  was  done,  by  means  of 
these  unions  and  associations,  to  injure  the 
freedom  of  trade.    I  hope  that  the  few 
words  I  have  spoken  to-night  will  show 
that  no  such  intention  is  entertained  by 
the  Government  What  they  desire  through 
the  Commission,  and  the  powers  which 
they  will  ask  Parliament  to  oonfer  on  the 
Commission,  is,   to  draw  the  line  which 
ought  to  be  drawn  between  perfect  free- 
dom of  labour  as  well  as  capital,  and 
those  illegal  acts  and  acts  of  violence, 
threat,  and  intimidation,  which  are  as  de- 
trimental to  workmen  as  they  are  to  mas- 
ters and  to  the  country  at  large.    If  I 
wanted  one  proof  to  uiow  that  this  is 
the  sole  desire  of  the  Government,  I  be- 
lieve I  should  have  nothing  further  to  do 
than  to  read  the  words  of  the  Commission. 
Her  Majesty  has  directed  the  Commission 
to  inquire  sud  report  on  flie  orj^anisatioK 



{Febbuabt  8,  1867) 

Unumi  Bill 


and  roles  of  trades  nnionB  and  other  as- 
8ooiation8y  whether  of  workmen  or  em- 
ployersy  and  to  inquire  into  and  report  on 
the  effect  produced  by  such  trades  unions 
and  associations  upon  workmen  and  em- 
ployers respectively,  and  on  the  relations 
between  workmen  and  employers,  and  on 
the  trade  and  industry  of  the  country, 
r^ard  beong  had  to  the  investigation  of 
any  recent  acts  of  violence  alleged  to  be 
promoted*  encouraged,  or  connived  at  by 
such  associations  in  Sheffield,  with  power 
to  suggest  any  improvements  in  the  law 
with  respect  to  the  matters  aforesaid,  or 
with  respect  to  the  relations  between  work- 
men and  employers.  The  Commission  will 
thus  have  to  consider  these  great  subjects 
— namely,  the  effect  of  these  unions  upon 
workmen  and  employers,  and  their  rela- 
tions, and  the  effect  they  now  have  or  are 
likely  to  have  upon  the  general  trade  of 
tiie  country,  witii  fiill  power  to  report 
upon  the  whole  matter  for  the  mutual 
benefit  of  employers  and  employed.  One 
word  with  regard  to  the  Bill  proposed. 
The  Bill  recites  the  Commission  and  the 
object  of  it,  and  then  asks  for  power  to 
inquire  into  the  acts  which  have  been  per- 
petrated at  Sheffield.  It  is  confined  to 
the  investigation  of  the  acts  at  Sheffield 
almost  exclusively;  because  a  roving 
inquiry  of  that  land  is  not  an  inquiry 
wmch  Parliament  would  be  likely  to 
grant,  nor  would  it  in  all  probability  lead 
to  any  practical  result.  There  is,  how- 
ever, this  power  reserved,  *  that  in  case 
application  should  be  made  to  the  Com- 
missioners, and  they  should  think  it 
reasonable  to  extend  the  inquiry  from 
Sheffield,  then,  with  the  sanction  of  the 
Secretary  of  State,  a  farther  investigation 
may  be  made.  Powers  are  given  by  the 
Bill  to  compel  the  attendance  of  witnesses ; 
and  there  is  a  power  of  examining  wit- 
nesses on  oath,  and  a  further  power  of 
indemnifying  them  from  the  penalties 
which  might  otherwise  attach  to  illegal 
acts  which  they  had  committed,  on  con- 
dition that  they  make  a  full  and  complete 
oonfession.  These  are  the  powers  given 
by  the  BiU,  and  by  these  I  hope  that 
those  acts  which  are  done  with  so  much 
secrecy,  and  which  are  attended  by  so  much 
difficult  of  discovery,  may  be  put  an  end 
to,  that  the  innocent  may  not  be  confound- 
ed with  the  guilty  whUe  the  guiltv  may 
not  be  punished — that  is  not  the  object  of 
the  Bill— but  be  exposed,  and  a  repetition 
of  such  acta  be  prevented.  With  regard 
to  the  Ooiainisri<x9i  itself^  it  is  proposed  to 

make  it  as  little  of  apartisan  character  as 
possible,  and  to  Attain   that  object,  the 
names  of  those  to  sit  upon  it  have  been 
selected,  one  ftom  the  upper  House  of 
Parliament,  four  from  this  House,  and  four 
or  five  others  from  gentlemen  outside  the 
walls  of  Parliament    who  take  a  great 
interest  in  the  subject,  but  who  are  not 
intimately  connected  with  either  the  mas- 
ters or  the  workmen.  The  President  of  the 
Commission  is  the  late  Lord  Chief  Justice 
of  the  Common  Pkas,  Sir  William  Erie, 
one  I  need  not  say,  whose  probity  of 
character,  judicial  impartiality,  and  great 
ability,  eminently  fit  him  for  the  post. 
His  life  for  a  long  series  of  years  has  been 
devoted  to  the  benefit  of  his  country,  and 
he  has  secured  for  himself  the  universal 
esteem  and  respect  of  all  parties.     Lord 
Lichfield  will  be  appointed  frx)m  the  other 
House.    There  is  one  whom  I  am  sure  the 
workmen,   and    the    country    generally, 
would  have  been  glad  to  see  appointed  on 
this  Commission  —  I  refer  to  the  hon. 
Member    for  Westminster    (Mr.    Stuart 
Mill) ;  but  he  has  declined  tx)  sit,  on  the 
ground  that  his  duties  in  this  House  occupy 
too  much  of  his  time.      I  still  hope  that 
ho    may    be    induced  to  re-consider  his 
decision.    Then  there  is  the  hon.  Member 
for  Sheffield  (Mr.  Eoebuck),  who  has  taken 
a  deep  interest  in  the  Subject ;   the  hon. 
Member  for  Lambeth  (Mr.  T.  Hughes), 
Lord  Elcho,  and  Sir  Daniel  Gooch.  From 
outside  the  House  the  names  of  the  follow- 
ing gentlemen  have  been  added :  Sir  Ed- 
mund Head,  Sir  James  Booth,  and  Mr. 
Herman  Merivale.  That  makes  nine  mem- 
bers; but  I  ought  to  inform  the  House  that 
I  had  a  communication  from  a  body  of  work- 
ing men,  urging  that  some  working  men 
should  be  put  upon  the  Commission— or,  if 
that  course  were  not  followed,  that  one  or 
two  persons,  in  whom  the  working  men 
had  entire  confidence,  might  be  appointed. 
My  answer  to  them  was,  that  I  had  en- 
deavoured to  avoid  having  a  Commission 
with  anything  like  a  partisan  spirit,  and 
that  if  working  men  were  added  to  it, 
masters  must  be  added  also.    I,  however, 
suggested  that  if  it  were  satisfactory  to 
them,  they  might  reoommend  to  me  the 
name  of  some  gentleman  whom  they  would 
like  to  see  upon  the  Commission,  and  the 
masters  might  do  the  same.      In  that  way 
the  names  of  Mr.  William  Matthews  and 
Mr.  F.  Harrison  were  added  to  the  number. 
I  thank  the  House  for  the  attention  they 
have  paid  to  me.    I  trust  that  good  results 
will  arise  tqm  thp  laboiirs  of  the  Qom* 




UnUma  BiU, 


mifldon.  I  hope  its  inqmriee  will  tend  to 
the  mutual  benefit  of  the  employer  and 
employed.  Seeing  that  both  masters  and 
men  agree  in  desiring  an  inquiry,  and  feel- 
ing p^ect  oonfidenoe  that  tiie  inquiry 
wUl  be  properly  conducted,  I  hope  it  will 
lead  to  results  that  will  prove  of  perma- 
nent good  to  the  country.  The  right  hon. 
Gentleman  concluded  by  moving  for  leave 
to  bring  in  the  BilL 

Sib  GEORGE  GREY  said,  no  one  could 
doubt  the  importance  of  the  subject ;  but 
with  regard  to  the  Bill  itself,  he  did  not 
quite  understand  whether  the  compulsory 
powers  to  be  granted  were  to  be  limited 
to  Sheffield  or  to  extend  over  the  whole  of 
the  country,  or  whether  the  powers  of  the 
special  inquiry  at  Sheffield  would  compel 
witnesses  to  give  evidence  which  might 
tend  to  criminate  themselves,  and  subject 
them  to  severe  penalties.  He  would  re- 
serve  any  opinion  upon  the  Bill,  however, 
for  the  present.  With  regard  to  the  con- 
struction of  the  Commission,  he  would  only 
say  that  he  did  not  think  that  a  better 
President  could  have  been  selected  than 
the  eminent  Judge — Sir  William  Erie — 
who  had  presided  so  long  over  the  Court 
of  Common  Pleas.  He  felt  sure  thai  the 
Commission  would  be  conducted  in  the 
spirit  which  the  right  hon.  Gentleman 
opposite  (Mr.  Walpole)  desired.  Of  the 
other  Members  he  would  refrain  from  ex- 
pressing an^  opinion.  The  composition  of 
the  Commission  was  a  most  important 
question ;  because,  unless  constituted  in 
such  a  way  as  to  give  confidence  to  those 
whose  interests  were  concerned,  it  would 
be  found  to  produce  very  little  benefit. 

Mb.  THOMAS  HUGHES  said,  he  felt 
the  immense  gravity  of  the  inquiry  on 
which  they  were  about  to  embark,  and 
was  delighted  to  hear  that  the  composition 
of  the  Commission  had  been  to  some  ex- 
tent enlarged,  so  as  to  introduce  one  mem- 
ber at  least  who  would  be  able  conscien- 
tiously to  advocate  and  to  explain  the  posi- 
tion held  by  the  trades  unions  as  militant 
bodies.  There  was  one  point  which  it 
was  desirable  to  impress  upon  Her  Ma- 
jesty's Government.  This  inquiry  must 
extend  over  a  considerable  time ;  and  mean- 
while, a  recent  decision  had  placed  the 
trades  unions  outside  the  pale  of  the  law. 
From  the  year  1824,  when  the  combination 
laws  were  repealed,  up  to  1854,  the  posi- 
tion of  those  societies  was  simply  outside 
the  law.  Their  objects  were  not  illegal ; 
but,  at  the  same  time,  they  had  no  cor- 
porate powers  of  suing  or  being  sued,  and 

Mr.  WOfnk 

were  not  in  any  shape  within  the  pvoteo* 
tion  of  the  civil  law.     In  1853  and  1854 
Mr.  Sotheron  Estcourt  was  introducing  his 
amendment  of  theFriendly  Societiee'  Acts, 
and  he  (Mr.  T.  Hughes)  rendered  the  trades 
unions  such  help  as  he  could  to  bring  them 
into  a  recognised  position  in  the  eye  of 
the  law.    They  sent  deputations  to  Mr. 
Sotheron  Estcourt  on  the  aabject,  and  the 
result  was  that  he  introda<^  into  the 
Friendly  Societies'  Act  of  1855  the  44th 
and  other  clauses,  which  enabled  trades 
societies,  by  depositing  their  rules  with 
the  Registrar   of  Friendly    Societies,  to 
come  within  the  scope  of  the  Act  as  far  as 
regarded  summary  powers  of  dealing  with 
fraudulent  officers  and  members  of  their 
own  society  with  whom  there  might  be 
any  dispute.    For  several  years  after  no 
further  step  towards  recognition  was  taken. 
Bat  in  the  year  when   the    Post  Office 
Savings  Bank  Act  was  passed,  the  societies 
came  forward  and  asked  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  the  Member  for  Soal^  Lanca- 
shire (Mr.  Gladstone)  to  admit  them  to 
the  same  privilege  as  the  Friendly  Socie« 
ties  of  investing  their  surplus  funds  in 
the  bank.  The  right  hon.  Gentleman,  with 
true  statesmanship,  granted  them  the  pri- 
vilege, so  that  they  were  then  recognised 
for  purposes  of  suing  and  being  sued,  and 
of  iov^ng  their  funds  in  GovemmeDt 
securities.     Then  came  the  unfortunate 
decision  of  the  Queen's  Bench  the  other 
day,  which  entirely  swept  away  all  this 
recognition,  ahd  placed  them  absolutely 
outside  the  law  of  the  country.    Persons 
who  knew  much  of  the  aotion  of  these 
bodies  knew  that  a  large  portion  of  their 
action   was  that  of  provident  societies, 
rather  than  of  trades  unions,    lliey  distri- 
buted thousands  a  week  for  purely  benevo- 
lent purposes  within  theFriendly  Societies 
Act.     To  his   own  knowledge  that  was 
the  case  with  respect  to  one  of  these  so- 
cieties.   Many  of  them  had  branches  all 
over  the  country,  and  the  treasurers  of 
those  branches  were  nominally  members  of 
the  societies,  but  were  generally  publicans, 
in  whose  houses  their  meetings  were  held. 
The  decision  of  the  other  day  enabled 
dishonest 'persons  to  retain  the  fdnds  of 
the  societies,  there  being  no  legal  process 
which  would  reach  them.    Therefore,  re- 
joicing that  this  inquiry  would  be  entered 
into,  and  hoping  it  would  place  the  law 
on  a  much  better  footing,  he  would  uigo 
earnestly  upon  the  Government  the  pro- 
priety of  bringing   forward  some  sack 
measure  as  had  been  indicated  by  the  boui 



{FsBBVAItT  8, 1867) 

ZTntMM  Silt. 


Meahei  tor  Oxford  (Mr*  Neate),  bo  aa  to 

mride  tha^  pending  the  reeolt  of  the 

jBTBstigmtion,  diahonest  persona  should  not 

he  endUedy  by  the  late  deoision  of  the 

Qaeen's  Bench,  to  retain  money  intrusted 

to  tbem,  vhile  the  societies  had  no  remedy. 

As  this  inquiry  oonld  only  be  of  serrice 

ia  ike  erent  of  thorough  oonfidenoe  being 

lelt  bj  both  aides,  it  was  of  the  first  im- 

pcniaooe  that  the  House  should  take  suoh 

it^as  would  reatore  that  oonfidence  by 

eaddiDg  the  tradea  nnions  to  deal  with 

tber  own  funda'and  to  punish  any  who, 

keoDsequence  of  the  decision,  might  abuse 

that  trust.     By  adopting  such  a  course 

Btfiiament  'woald  couTince  the  working 

mm  that    they    were   resolved    to    act 

thnoghout  the  inquiry  in  perfect  good 

faitii,  and  thus  the  labours  of  the  Com- 

mksbiL  would    be  likely  to  result  in  a 

tennination  aatiafactory  to  all  parties. 

Mb.   GOSGHEN    said,    he   concurred 
with  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  opposite 
(Xr.  Walpole)  as  to  the  desirability  of  the 
pn^osed    inquiry*  but  did   not  approTO 
mixing  up  togettier  two  questions  appa- 
leotly  akin,    but  in  reality  of  a  totuly 
£ferent  nature.     It  was  proposed  that  the 
Coramiaaioa  ahould  inquire,  in  the  first 
plaee,  into  the  unfortunate  outrages  which 
had  taken  place  at  Sheffield,  and  then  into 
the  general   effect  which  trades   unions 
bad  upon  the  trade  and  industry  of  the 
eoontry.      These  were  both  yery  proper 
Bobjeets  of  inquiry ;  but  the  question  was, 
whether  it  was  quite  expedient  and  quite 
jart  to  refer  them  to  the  same  Commis- 
son?    Waa  it  right  to  mix  up  a  broad 
questioa  of  political  economy  with  an  in* 
Tcstigation    into  certain  local  outrages? 
Vss  it  right  thi^  a  Commission  appointed 
to  inquire  into  one  of  the  most  serious 
qoestionB  of  the  day,  affecting,  as  it  did, 
the  trade  and  manufactures  of  the  coun- 
tiy,  ahould  sit  at  Sheffield  ?     He  scarcely 
mdeiatood  whether  the  compulsory  powers 
ad^ed  for  by  the  Bill  to  be  Tested  in  the 
Commisaion  were  to  be  limited  to  the  Shef- 
field inqmry,  or  were  to  be  exercised  with 
regard  to  the  broader  question,  which  he 
Qaderatood  waa  to  be  entered  on  at  the 
eondnuon  of  the  other. 

Mb.  walpole  said,  he  had  not, 
peihapa,  made  himself  dearly  understood 
vpon  the  point.  The  CommissionerB  were 
to  haTO  power  to  appoint  examiners,  who 
were  to  go  down  to  Sheffield,  under  the 
direetion  of  the  President  of  the  Crommis- 
lioo,  lor  the  purpose  of  inquiring  into  the 
outrages  which  had  taken  phm  in  that 

YOl.,  CJiXXXY.    [Tfflq)SBRras.] 

town.  If  an  application  were  made  to 
the  Commissioners  for  inquiry  elsewhere, 
and  the  Commissioners  should  think  it 
reasonable  so  to  extend  the  inquiry,  then, 
with  the  sanction  of  the  Secretary  of  State, 
a  further  inyestigation  might  be  made. 

Mb.  OOSCHEN  said,  these  questiona 
would  be  better  gone  into  on  the  second 
reading;  but  he  desired  to  know  whether 
the  Commissioners  would  be  able  to  com- 
pel witnesses  to  attend  upon  any  other 
questions  except  those  connected  with 
these  outrages? 

Mb.  walpole  said,  they  would  not. 

Mb.  GOSCHEN  said,  he  was  glad  to 
hear  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  negative 
such  a  supposition ;  as,  in  the  first  in- 
stance, there  had  been  some  fear  enter- 
tained that  the  Commissioners  would  hare 
power  to  compel  the  attendance  of  wit- 
nesses generally  and  examine  them  on  oath, 
with  regard  to  the  great  question  aa  to 
how  far  the  operation  of  these  associationa 
had  been  beneficial  or  otherwise  to  the 
manufacturing  and  other  interests  of  the 
country.  It  would  owtainly  hare  been  a 
strong  measure  to  call  upon  the  secretary 
of  a  trades  union  to  detail  oompulsorily, 
and  on  oath,  the  whole  of  the  private  affidrs 
of  the  association  with  which  he  was  con- 
nected. He  must  repeat  his  objection  to 
the  two  subjects — the  outrages  at  Sheffield, 
and  the  effect  of  the  trades  tmions  on  the 
interests  of  the  country — being  treated 
together,  as  such  a  course  was  likely 
more  or  less  to  bias  the  minds  of  the 
Commissioners,  by  bringing  before  them 
prominently  and  from  ^e  very  first,  cer- 
tain deplorable  acta  of  a  criminal  nature 
in  such  a  manner  as  to  lead  them  to 
conduct  the  inquiry  on  the  basis  that  the 
trades  unions  were  connected  with  the 
outrages,  and  thereby  more  or  less  preju- 
dice the  examination  into  the  broad  ques- 
tion of  the  effect  of  these  organizationa  on 
the  trade  of  the  country. 

Mk.  roebuck  said,  that  the  difficulty 
to  which  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  (Mr. 
Goschen)  alluded  did  not  exist.  When 
Mr.  Hume  brought  in  his  Bill  to  give 
freedom  to  workmen  to  sell  their  labour 
at  the  best  price  they  could  get  for  it, 
there  had  been  stringent  laws  preventing 
them  from  dobg  so,  and  there  was  great 
doubt  expressed  when  Mr.  Hume's  Bill 
waa  proposed  whether  it  would  not  be  in- 
jurious to  the  industry  of  the  country. 
Since  then  certain  acts  had  occurred  which 
the  masters  said  verified  their  anticipa- 
tions of  mischief,  and  that  this  She^eld 





Uniom  B%U. 


MflewaBaniflBtoQoe.  The  people  of  Shefr 
field  said  they  had  done  no  harm,  and 
would  proTO  their  innooenoe.  The  quea- 
tion  arose  whether  the  laws  at  present 
existing  were  henefldal,  and  he  could  not 
see  what  mischief  could  arise  ikom  an 
inquiry  into  the  Sheffield  outrage,  which 
had  heen  brought  forward  as  an  illustra- 
tion of  the  working  of  those  laws?  One 
party  said  the  disease  was  fatal ;  another 
said  it  did  not  exist.  An  impartial  in- 
quiry would  elicit  the  facts. 

Mb.  NEATE  said,  he  thought  the  two 
subjects  of  inquiry  should  be  conducted 
separately.  Eren  supposing  that  the  in- 
vestigation of  the  outrages  at  Sheffield 
would  not  prejudice  the  minds  of  the 
Commissioners  against  the  trades  unions, 
tiie  House  must  look  to  the  effect  which 
would  be  produced  upon  the  minds  of 
the  working  men  by  the  two  questions 
being  treated  as  one.  The  minds  of  the 
working  classes  were  just  now  in  a  yery 
aensitiTe  state;  and  he  did  not  think  that 
it  would  be  desirable  to  suggest  to  them, 
eyen  indirectly,  that  the  oiganization  of 
the  trades  unions  was  in  any  degree  con- 
nected with  the  crimes  which  had  been 
perpetrated  at  Sheffield.  He  would  haye 
confidence  in  any  Commission  that  might 
be  appointed  to  inquire  into  the  case. 
That,  howeyer,  might  not  be  the  opinion 
of  the  working  men  of  England,  more 
especially  as  this  Commission  not  only 
inquired  into  the  facts,  but  also  acted  as 
the  adyiser  of  the  Crown.  It  was  there- 
fore important  not  to  do  anything  which 
would  wound  the  sensibilities  of  the  work* 
ing  men  by  mixing  up  two  subjects  not 
necessarily  connected.  He  entirely  agreed 
with  the  opinion  expressed  by  the  hon. 
and  learned  Member  (Mr.  T.  Hughes)  as 
to  the  propriety  of  restoring  the  trades 
unions  to  the  position  they  had  oocupied 
before  the  lato  decision  in  the  Court  of 
Queen's  Bench,  which  appeared  to  him  to 
be  in  direct  opposition  to  the  expressed 
intontums  of  Parliament  on  the  subject. 
It  was  a  delieato  matter  to  criticixe  the 
opinions  of  men  so  much  aboye  suspicion; 
but  when  Judges  multiplied  cases  in  which 
contracts  wa«  to  be  set  aside  as  yiolations 
of  public  policy,  they  were  not  encroach- 
ing but  treading  upon  ground  which  Par- 
liament shared  with  them,  and  the  recent 
decision  was  a  yery  serious  one,  depriying 
these  unions,  as  it  did,  of  any  legal  stotus 
as  benefit  sooietiea.  Moreoyer,  the  discre- 
tion which  was  to  be  left  to  magistrates 
as  to  what  degree  of  departure  from  flie 

Mr.  Hoebuch 

purposes  of  a  friendly  society  rendered  or- 
ganixations  illegal,  was  one  which  they 
were  by  no  means  fitted  to  exercise.  Upon 
this  ground  alone  it  was  desirable  to  pass 
a  proyisional  measure  exempting  trade  so- 
cieties from  the  forfeiture  of  those  priyi- 
leges  which  they  had  enjoyed  prior  to  the 
recent  jud^ent;  and  he  should  defer  pro- 
ceedings with  his  Motion  on  that  subject^ 
in  the  hope  that  the  right  hon.  Gentleman 
would  see  the  propriety  of  his  proposaL 

Sib  FRANCIS  CBOSSLEY  said,  that  as 
a  manufiicturer,  he  had  had  a  great  deal 
to  do  with  the  employment  of  labour;  and, 
as  far  as  he  could  judge,  the  law  as  it  stood 
enabled  both  the  workman  to  sell  his  labour 
at  the  best  price  he  could  obtain  for  it,  and 
themanufac^urer  to  buy  labour  at  the  cheap- 
est, without  molestation.  The  establish- 
ment with  which  he  was  connected  engaged 
a  short  time  ago  to  build  a  warehouse  ;  but 
the  master  mason  found  great  difficulty 
with  his  men,  who,  notwithstanding  that 
he  increased  their  wages  and  shortened 
their  houn  of  labour,  all  struck  at  an 
hour's  notice.  He  said,  that  were  he  to 
submit  to  their  demands  he  should  soon 
haye  a  repetition  of  the  miaconduct.  The 
firm  offered  the  master  eyery  assistance  in 
their  power;  and  after  the  landlord  of  a 
beer-shop,  who  had  been  found  intimidat- 
ing new  men  who  sought  for  employment, 
had  been  summoned  before  a  magistrate 
and  sent  for  a  term  to  Wakefield  House 
of  Correction  without  the  option  of  a  fine, 
and  had  his  **  topping''  cut  off— much  to 
his  astonishment-— there  was  no  fhriher 
difficulty,  and  the  work  proceeded.  There 
was  a  good  deal  of  unreasonable  feeling 
abroad  that  it  was  wrong  for  working 
men  to  stend  to  sell  their  labour  at  the 
best  price;  but  it  must  be  remembered 
that  their  labour  was  the  only  thing 
they  had  to  sell,  and  the  best  thing 
to  do  was  to  leaye  these  matten  to 
take  their  natural  course.  Although  his 
firm  employed  about  5,000  people,  they 
had  not  had  a  strike  for  twenty-fiye 
yean.  It  was  a  great  mistake  on  the  part 
of  employen  to  suppose  that  the  lowest 
priced  labour  waa  always  the  cheapest.  If 
a  man  wanted  to  succeed  in  life,  it  was 
not  by  paying  a  less  price  for  labour  than 
his  neighboun ;  because  by  paying  a  little 
mora  than  others  he  would  secura  the  best 
workmen  in  the  district,  and  by  haying 
the  best  workmen  he  would  be  much  better 
able  to  compete  in  the  market  than  those 
who  payed  a  smaller  rate.  As  when  they 
went  to  sell  goods,  so  when  they  went  to 



(Febeitabt  8, 1867) 

VnioM  Sia. 


bny  labour  fh^  miut  meet  argnment  by  ar- 
gument, and  m  bis  opinion  in  the  trades 
differences  that  bad  ocenrred  the  fanlt  was 
quite  as  much  with  the  masters  as  with  the 
men.  If  there  was  not  so^mnoh  desire  to 
ran  down  the  price  of  laboar,  and  masters 
showed  a  more  conciliatory  spirit,  there 
wonld  be  fewer  strikes  and  outrages.  If 
the  law  was  imperfect,  by  all  means  let 
it  be  remedied.  He  thought  it  was  not 
far  from  what  it  should  be.  They  must 
not  expect  too  much  of  Parliament.  Any- 
thing practical  that  was  to  be  accomplished 
roust  be  broaght  about  by  the  wise  discre- 
tion of  the  masters*  and  workmen  in  their 
dealings  between  themselyes.  If  masters 
would  try  to  get  the  best  productions  in- 
stead of  die  oheapest  there  would  be  fewer 

Mb.  AYBTON  said,  he  had  been  so 
often  appealed  to  by  friends  of  trade  socie- 
ties in  reference  to  proceedings  in  that 
House,  that  he  felt  called  upon  to  say  a 
word  upon  the  subject  under  discussion. 
Ko  one  could  object  to  an  inquiry  into 
what  had  taken  place  at  Sheffield ;  but  the 
proceeding  recommended  by  the  Home 
Secretary  was  one  which  wotdd  be  received 
with  astonishment  by  the  great  body  of 
the  working  people  of  the  country.  If  he 
understood  rightly,  the  Commission  was  to 
be  appointed  to  inquire  into  the  effect  upon 
the  industry  of  the  countxy  of  trade  so- 
cieties legfdly  and  properly  conduoted. 
Parliament  had  long  since  recognised  the 
legality  and  policy  of  trade  societies.  [Mr. 
Waltolb  dissented.]  When  Mr.  Hume's 
Act  passed.  Parliament  certainly  recognised 
their  legality.  His  hon.  and  learned  Eriend  I 
(Mr.  Bolt)  shook  his  head,  and  seemed 
to  think  that  legal  trade  societies  did  not 
exist,  but  Parliament  had  certainly  recog- 
nised the  status  of  societies  having  legal 
objects  in  view.  He  entirely  objected  to 
the  proposal  of  the  Govemment  that  any 
Chief  Justice,  however  learned,  should  sit 
in  judgment  on  one  of  the  gravest  politi- 
cal questions  of  the  day,  and  undertake 
to  decide  whether  institutions  which  had 
long  existed  under  the  sanction  of  Parlia- 
ment were  or  were  not  l^;al,  and  whether 
they  conduced  to  the  prosperity  of  the 
trade  of  the  country,  l^e  inquiry  would 
obviously  be  useless,  unless  if  the  Chief  Jus- 
tice's judgment  were  against  trade  societies 
they  were  to  be  repressed,  and  to  return  to 
the  state  of  the  law  previous  to  1824.  It 
could  have  no  other  effect  than  to  destroy 
any  remainmg  feeling  of  confidence  in  the 
minds  of  the  working  elasscs  with  refer- 

ence to  the  conduct  of  Parliament.  It 
was  quite  another  thing  to  inquire  whether 
any  abuse,  any  illegal  acts,  had  been  per- 
petrated under  the  name  of  trades  socie- 
ties. Nobody  could  better  inquire  into  that 
subject  than  the  late  Chief  Justice  of  the 
Common  Pleas;  but  he  hoped  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman  did  not  contemplate  going 
beyond  that.  The  right  hon.  Gentlemsn 
had  suggested  courts  of  conciliation  or  ar- 
bitration— ^was  the  Commissicm  to  investi- 
gate that  subject  ?  Some  four  years  ago 
he  had  devoted  to  it  much  time  in  a  Com- 
mittee upstairs ;  a  Bill  had  been  carefully 
framed  for  the  establishment  of  these 
courts,  and  it  passed  that  House  without 
opposition.  It  had  been  rejected,  how- 
ever, by  the  other  House  in  the  most  con- 
temptuous manner,  without  consideration, 
without  reflection,  and,  he  ventured  to 
add,  without  intelligence.  The  House  of 
Lords,  therefore,  were  answerable  for  the 
present  state  of  things,  and  any  acerbity 
of  feeling  which  might  exist  between  em- 
ployers and  workmen.  It  was  not  neces- 
sary to  have  a  Commission  to  re-consider 
that  question.  He  hoped  the  labours  of 
the  Commission  would  be  limited  to  the 
investigation  of  the  illegal  acts  of  trades 
unions,  and  that  it  would  not  enter  into 
an  inquiry  whether  acts  perfectly  lawful 
have  been  favourable  or  unfavourable  to 
the  trade  of  the  country.  The  decision 
of  the  Court  of  Queen's  Bench  that  a  par- 
ticular rule  was  ill^l  might  be  right ; 
but  the  effect  of  the  decision  in  making 
the  society  itself  illegal  was  unreasonable. 
The  most  convenient  course  would  be  for 
the  right  hon.  Gentleman  at  once  to  bring 
in  a  Bill  to  declare  that  illegal  rules  in 
benefit  societies  should  not  be  enforced, 
but  that  the  other  objects  of  such  societies, 
which  were  most  beneficial  to  the  working 
people  and  advantageous  to  the  country 
at  large,  should  remain.  It  was  mons- 
trous that,  because  some  illegal  rule  had 
crept  in,  therefore  fiinds  which  had  been 
subscribed  to  meet  cases  of  sickness  should 
be  left  at  the  mercy  of  any  one  to  swallow 
up  for  his  own  benefit. 

hon.  and  learned  Gentleman  has  founded 
his  aigument  upon  quite  an  imaginary 
opinion,  which  he  has  attributed  to  me. 
He  seems  to  think  that  my  opinion  is  that 
there  is  no  sueh  thing  as  a  lawful  trade 
society.  I  entirely  disclaim  entertabing 
such  an  opinion.  I  know  that  there  are 
many  legal  trade  societies.  I  entertain 
no  doubt  that  the  great  majority  of  tiado 




Uni<m  BiB. 


his  own  district,  where  efforts  hftdbeen 
made  to  pat  an  end  to  strikesi  the  most 
formidable  difficoltj  which  they  had  had 
to  encounter  were  certain  egregious  falla- 
cies which  had  been  pnt  forward  under 
the  authority  of  the  hon.  Member  for 
Westminster  (Mr.  Stuart  Mill).  For  in- 
stance, he  was  quoted  on  one  occasion  as 
having  stated,  in  one  of  his  authoritative 
booksi  that  it  was  quite  justifiable  for  work- 
men  not  only  to  combine  for  a  particular 
sort  of  work,  and  for  a  fixed  rate  of 
wages,  irrespective  of  demand  and  supply; 
but  that  further  than  this,  they  were  jus- 
tified in  adopting  rules  for  the  purpose  of 
preventiug  too  great  a  number  of  persons 
from  entering  into  that  trade  and  so  estab- 
lishing an  iojurious  competition.  When 
such  arguments  were  put  forward,  he 
thought  that  it  was  quite  necessary  that 
there  should  be  an  inquiry  in  order  to  find 
an  answer  to  such  opinions.  For  his  part, 
he  believed  that  the  inquiry  would  be  of 
the  greatest  benefit. 

Mr.  WALPOLE  said,  he  thought  that 
the  hon.  Gentleman  (Mr.  W.  E.  Forster) 
had  somewhat  mistaken  the  nature  of  this 
Bill.  The  object  of  the  Bill  was  not  simply 
to  give  Parliamentary  powers  to  the  Com- 
mission to  detect  the  perpetrators  of  the 
outrages  at  Sheffield,  but  in  the  inquiry 
into  trades  unions  and  associations,  they 
were  to  have  regard  to  the  outrages 
which  were  alleged  to  have  been  perpe- 
trated by  means  of  these  trades  unions 
and  associations,  and  to  see  how  fax 
such  outrages  were  or  were  not  con- 
nected with  the  organization  and  rules 
of  these  tr&des  unions  and  associa- 
tions. It  was  therefore  a  part,  and, 
indeed,  a  necessary  part  of  the  subject, 
according  to  all  the  regulations  and  to  all 
the  workings  of  these  institutions,  to  see 
whether  the  unions  had  led  to  any  great 
extent  to  acts  of  outrage  and  violence, 
such  as  had  taken  place.  The  hon.  Gen- 
tleman would  therefore  see  that  if  this 
Commission  had  been  issued  independently 
of  a  direction  to  inquire  into  the  particular 
Sheffield  outrage,  still  the  Commission 
would  not  have  done  its  duty  if  it  had  not 
inquired  into  the  working  of  these  unions 
in  reference  to  all  acts  of  aggression  against 
workmen.  It  was  therefore  a  necessary 
part  of  the  inquiry  ;  and  that  it  should  be 
carried  on  by  a  Commission  having  Par- 
liamentary powers  would  only  have  this 
effect,  that  they  could  more  thoroughly 
investigate  the  subject,  and  thereby  enable 
Parliament  to  deal  more  satisfactonly  with 

Jfr.  JFhalhy 

it.  The  hon.  Member  (Mr.  Ayrton)  en- 
larged upon  the  importance*— in  which  ho 
fully  agreed  with  him — of  having  triba* 
nals  established  for  the  purpose  of  adjust- 
ing the  differences  between  workmen  and 
their  employers.  The  hon.  (Gentleman 
totally  misapprehended  him  if  he  thought 
for  a  moment  that  he  (Mr.  Walpole)  was 
not  of  opinion  that  the  hon.  Member  took 
great  pains  to  establish  such  tribunals. 
He  was  perfectly  aware  that  this  was  so. 
So  long  ago  as  Mr.  Hume's  Committee, 
there  was  a  recommendation  that  there 
should  be  means  found  for  settling  such 
disputes.  They  did  not  attempt  to  define 
the  means,  but  very  few  attempts  in  that 
direction  had  been  made  in  Parliament 
until  lately.  Although  the  hon.  Member's 
Bill  had  feiiled  in  the  House  of  Lords,  yet 
it  was,  perhaps,  in  consequence  of  this 
that  a  noble  and  learned  Lord  had  now 
taken  up  the  subject.  The  failure  of  that 
Bill  was  no  reason  for  issuing  the  Commis- 
sion ;  but  still,  if  there  were  to  be  a  Com- 
mission, surely  the  investigation  should  be 
completed,  and  should  include  this  biancli 
of  the  subject.  He  believed  that  there 
was  no  part  of  the  matter  more  important 
than  that  there  should  be  tribunals  in 
which  both  masters  and  men  should  hare 
confidence;  and  he  believed  that  they 
would  be  better  oonstituted  for  having  the 
opinions  of  masters  and  men  directly 
brought  before  the  Commission,  which 
should,  AS  it  were,  set  its  seal  on  that 
which  would  be  the  best  mode  of  securing 
the  desired  end.  The  hon.  Member  (Mr. 
Neate)  would  find  that  it  was  not  so  easy 
a  matter  to  alter  the  law  in  the  point  he 
alluded  to.  The  real  fact  was  that  the 
whole  question  of  the  legality  of  these 
unions,  with  reference  to  questions  like 
that  that  had  recently  arisen  in  the 
Queen's  Bench,  turned  upon  this,  what 
were  to  be  the  rules  which  were  to  sanc- 
tion the  status  of  such  unions,  so  that 
they  might  be  able  to  enforce  their  civil 
rights  against  members  of  their  own  body, 
and  also  against  strangers,  without  tres- 
passing upon  the  laws  of  the  land  in  those 
respects  in  which  laws  were  deemed  neces- 
sary for  the  freedom  of  trade,  or  for  other 
purposes,  which,  if  they  were  not  ob- 
served, would  enable  such  societies  to  com* 
mit  acts  which  they  were  now  not  per- 
mitted to  do.  It  was  ihe  rules  of  these 
societies  upon  which  the  difficulties  arose. 
There  was  no  difficulty  if  the  societies 
were  simply  for  friendly  or  benevolent 
purposes,  legalised  by  the  Act  of  George  I  Yy 

805        DtAUn  Unmnity         (Fsbrvabt  8^  1867}         Profiuonhip9  Bill.       2M 

apart  from  eombining  for  tlie  settlament 
of  wages  to  be  worked  for  and  the  hours 
of  work ;  bat  if  they  went  beyond  into 
matters  which  the  law  did  not  reoognise 
as  legal,  then  there  was  established  a- state 
of  things  that  might  or  might  not  be  good, 
aeoording  to  the  rules  for  tiie  organisation 
of  these  Booieties.  Although  they  oould 
insist  upon  all  their  clril  rights  whilst 
they  kept  within  certain  bounds,  yet  be- 
yond them  thoy  could  not  go  until  the 
L^giBlature  had  determined  that  what  was 
now  oontrary  to  law  should  no  longer  be 
so.  The  hon.  Member  (Mr.  Ayrton)  said 
that  this  Commission  would  be  taken  in 
a  spirit  (which  was  certainly  not  intended) 
of  an  inquiry  hostile  to  working  men ; 
but  all  he  (Mr.  Walpole)  could  say  was, 
that  he  had  at  that  time  several  applica- 
tions from  working  men  asking  for  inquiry. 
And,  in  condnsion,  he  would  express  me 
own  belief  that  thLs  inquiry  would  do  a 
great  deal  of  good,  and  be  beneficial  to  all 
concerned  in  tedo,  as  well  as  to  the  coun- 
try in  generaL 

Mo'Uon  agreed  to. 

BiU  Ibr  fiusiUtatlDg  in  eertsia  oases  the  pro- 
oeedings  of  the  Commiasioners  sppointed  to  mftke 
inqoiry  respecting  Trades  X^nions  and  other  asso- 
ciations of  omplojers  or  workmen,  ordered  to  be 
broaght  in  bjr  Mr.  Secretary  Walpolb,  Lord  Johh 
Mufvias,  sad  Sir  SrArrosD  Kostbooxs. 


Mb.  BTJSSELL  GTJBNEY,  in  moying 
for  leave  to  introduce  a  Bill  to  remove 
some  defects  in  the  administration  of 
the  Criminal  Law,  said,  the  measure 
was  not  one  of  an  extensive  nature, 
and  was  entirely  directed  to  the  removal 
of  evils  which  had  come  under  his  own 
observation  in  the  Central  Criminal  Court, 
in  which  he  had  the  honour  to  preside. 
The  House  was  aware  that  at  present 
ample  means  were  taken  to  secure  the 
attendanoe  and  provide  for  the  remunera- 
tion of  witnesses  whose  evidence  was  neces- 
sary to  establish  the  guilt  of  the  prisoner. 
He  proposed  by  the  Bill  to  extend  that 
power,  so  that  it  should  not  be  confined 
to  the  witnesses  who  were  required  to 
establish  the  prisoner's  guilt,  but  should 
also  apply  to  witnesses  who  might  establish 
his  innocence.  That  was  a  matter  of  great 
importance  to  the  due  administration  of 
jostioe.  When  prisoners  made  statements 
in  their  own  defence,  he  had  not  unfre- 
qiiMily  Mt  ashamed  in  asking  them  whe- 

ther they  had  any  witnesses  to  call, 
knowing,  as  he  did,  that  they  had  no  pe- 
cuniary means  of  compelling  the  attendance 
of  witnesses  who  might  or  might  not  prove 
their  innocence.  It  was,  of  course,  neces- 
sary to  provide  safeguards  against  the 
abuse  of  this  privilege,  the  nature  and 
merits  of  which  would  be  best  considered 
in  Committee.  The  right  hon.  Gentleman 
concluded  by  moving  for  leave  to  bring 
in  the  BilL 

Thb  attorney  GENEEAL  said, 
he  was  requested  by  his  right  hon.  Friend 
the  Secretary  for  the  Home  Department, 
who  was  then  absent,  to  say  that  any  mea- 
sure on  such  a  subject  introduced  by  the 
learned  Becorder  was  entitled  to  great 
attention  and  respect.  That  point  of  the 
proposed  Bill  which  provided  for  the  at- 
tendance of  witnesses  on  behalf  of  the 
accused  was  entitled  to  favourable  conside- 
ration, although  the  power  might  be  much 
abused  unless  carefully  guarded.  He,  of 
course,  offered  no  opposition  to  the  intro- 
duction of  the  measure ;  but  it  must  be 
understood  that  the  Government  would 
reserve  to  itself  the  right  to  form  an 
opinion  on  the  BiU  and  its  details,  unless 
it  was  laid  beforo  the  House. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

Bill  to  remoTO  some  defects  in  the  administm- 
tion  of  the  Criminal  Law,  ordered  to  be  brought 
in  bj  Mr.  Russbll  Gubiht  and  Mr.  Goisainan. 

BiMprtienied^  and  read  the  flrrt  time.  [BiU  8.] 


Mr.  Sfkakkr  acquainted  the  House, 
that  his  Warrant  for  the  appointment  of 
Members  to  serve  on  the  General  Com- 
mittee of  Elections  was  upon  the  Table : 
— Warrant  read  as  followeth : — 

Pursoant  to  the  provisions  of  *'The  Election 
Petitions  Act,  1848, '  I  do  hereby  appoint  Samuel 
Whitbread,  esquire.  Member  for  the  Borough  of 
Bedford ;  James  Clajr,  esquire,  Member  for  the 
Town  of  Kingston  upon  UuU ;  The  honourable 
Edward  Frederic  Lereson  Gower,  Member  for  the 
Borough  of  Bodmin ;  Sir  Frederick  WUliam  Hey- 
gato,  baronet,  Member  for  the  County  of  London- 
derry; George  Sclater-Booth,  esquire,  Member 
for  the  Northern  DiTision  of  the  County  of  South- 
ampton ;  and  Sir  William  Stirling-Maxwell,  ba- 
ronet. Member  for  the  County  of  Perth ;  to  be 
Members  of  the  General  Committee  of  Elections 
for  the  present  Session.  Given  under  my  hand 
this  eighth  day  of  February,  1807. 

Jons  Etiltv  Dskisok,  Speaker. 


Conndered  in  Committee. 

(In  the  Committee.) 
Rewtvedf  That  the  Chairman  be  directed  to 
mo?e  the  HoutOt  thai  leare  be  giTeo  to  bring  in  a 


EiiMuM  Church 




Bill  to  open  the  Profe«orships  of  Anatomy  and 
Chirurgerj,  Chemistrjr  and  Botanyp  in  the  Uni- 
Tersitj  of  Dablin,  to  all  penoDs,  irrespectiTO  of 
their  religious  creed. 

Resolution  reported :  —  Bill   ordered  to   be 
brought  in  by  Mr.  Lawsoh  and  Mr.  Sulutav. 
Bill  pr»«0n(e(2,  and  read  the  first  time.  [Bill  10.] 


Seleet  Committee  appaintedf  "  to  inqnire  into 
the  operation  of  the  Aots  for  the  Regulation  and 
Inspection  of  Mines,  and  into  the  complaints  con- 
tained in  Petitions  from  Miners  of  Great  Britain 
with  reference  thereto,  which  were  presented  to 
the  House  during  Session  1805." — (Mr.Ayrkm.) 


On  Motion  of  Sir  Goufiv  O'Loohlbit,  Bill  to 
amend  the  Law  of  Libel,  and  thereby  to  secure 
more  eflbctually  the  liberty  of  the  Press,  ordered 
to  be  brought  in  by  Sir  Colmax  O'Loohlbn  and 
Mr.  Baihis. 
BUI  presented,  and  read  the  first  time.  [Bill  11 .] 

House  adjourned  at  a  quarter 

before  Ten  o'clock,  till 

Monday  neit. 

Manduy,  February  11,  1867. 


Thb  Mabquess  of  CLANBICARDE 
said,  notice  had  been  given  in  the  other 
House  that  Bilk  relating  to  the  improve- 
ment of  the  tenure  of  land  in  Ireland 
would  bo  shortly  introduced.  He  was 
afraid  that  those  Bills  would  not  deal  with 
the  whole  of  the  question,  but  only  with 
a  part  of  it ;  and  as  his  wish  was  that  the 
question  should  be  very  fully  discussed 
when  it  came  on  in  that  House,  he  would, 
on  Monday  next,  call  the  attention  of  their 
Lordships  to  the  subject,  and  lay  upon  the 
table  a  Bill  which  was  nearly  the  same  as 
the  one  he  introduced  last  year. 



The  Bishop  of  DOWN,  in  moving  for 
Betums  respecting  the  Established  Church 
(Ireland),  said,  he  did  not  intend  to  open 
up  the  great  question  of  IJie  Irish  Church 
at  present-— a  question  which  must  some 
day  receive  solution  at  the  hands  of  Par- 
liament—for the  present^  he  would  content 
himself  with  stating  that  the  rulers  of  the 
Church  were  quite  aware  that  there  existed 
defects   in   relation  to   the  Established 

Church  in  Ireland  which  required  remedy^ 
and  anomalies  in  its  constitution,  and  ia 
the  distribution  of  its  endowment^  which 
required  to  be  carefully  considei^  and 
amended.  No  matter  what  the  proteeta^ 
tions  of  attachment  to  the  Church  might  be» 
or  however  high  the  office  he  might  hold 
in  it,  he  could  not  look  upon  any  one  as 
a  safe  friend  or  a  wise  counsellor,  who 
justified  the  one  or  palliated  the  other. 
As  this  question  must  sooner  or  later  oomo 
before  the  Legislature,  it  was  just,  reason- 
able, and  right  that  ha  should  seek  to 
place  in  their  Lordships'  hands  reliable 
Itetums,  so  that  when  Uie  question  came 
on  to  be  discussed,  their  Lordships  might 
be  able  to  give  their  best  attention  to  it. 
The  enemies  of  the  Church  in  Ireland 
sought  its  fall  and  destruction ;  but  if  the 
rulers  of  the  Church  would  bring  in  a 
well-considered  and  wise  measure  of  reform 
in  the  Church,  their  enemies'  wild  cry  for 
destruction  would  awaken  no  response  in 
the  hearts  of  the  people  of  Ireland,  and 
would  have  no  weight  with  thoughtfbl 
men.  He  would  just  add  that  he  believed 
the  Ecclesiastical  Commissioners  in  Ireland 
disposed  of  the  funds  in  their  hands  with 
great  judgment  and  prudence. 

Mwed,  That  an  bumble  Address  be  presented 
to  Her  Majesty  for, 

Betnm  from  the  Eoclesiastical  Gommissionen 
(Ireland)  of  the  Greet  and  Not  Serenuet  of  the 
EetabltBhed  Churoh  in  Ireland ;  ipeoifjing  tlie 
▼ariottfl  Heads  from  which  sooh  RoTenuet  are 
derired,  and  inoluding  the  Revenues  of  the  Churoh 
now  in  the  Hands  of  the  Ecolesiastical  Commis- 
sioners derived  from'Eoolesiastical  Sooroes;  Also, 

Statement  of  the  Charges  and  Deductions  which 
eonstitute  the  Diflbrenoe  between  Gross  and  Net 
Revenues:  Also, 

The  Total  Amount  received  hf  the  Eoclesi- 
astioal  Commissioners  for  the  Purchase  of  Per- 
petuities :  Also, 

The  present  Amount  invested :  Also, 

Payments  to  Vicars  Choral  and  Curates  of  sus- 
pended Benefices;  specifying  to  what  Cathedral 
such  Vicars  Choral  are  attached,  and  the  Names 
of  the  suspended  Benefices,  and  Amount  paid  in 
each  Case :  Also, 

Payments  in  Augmentation  of  small  Benefioos 
firom  the  Funds  belongiug  to  the  Ecolesiastical 
Commissioners,  with  the  Name  of  each  Benefioo 
and  the  Amount  of  Augmentation  :  Also, 

The  Annual  Amount  paid  by  the  Ecolesiastical 
Commissioners  for  the  Payment  of  Parish  Clerks 
Salaries:  And  also. 

The  Annual  Amount  paid  by  the  Ecclesiastioal 
Commissioners  to  provide  Communion  Elements. 
— ( The  BUhop  of  Down,) 

Thb  Abohbishop  of  DUBLIN  said,  he 
was  not  able  to  support  the  Motion  of  the 
right  rev.  Prelate ;  but  Ihat  was  not  from 
any  desire  not  to  see  all  anomalies  in  the 

S09        Turnpike  TrusU-^        (Febbuart  11,  1867) 



Irish  Church  removed,  but  simply  upon 
the  ground  that  these  Betums  woald 
inTolve  a  vast  deal  of  labour  to  a  hirge 
body  of  persons,  and  that  even  if  they 
were  made  they  would  be  superfluous,  as 
the  information  sought  for  was  already  in 
their  Lordships'  hands.  Most  of  it .  was 
to  be  obtained  from  the  Annual  Report 
furnished  by  the  Commissioners ;  some  of 
the  facts  were  to  be  found  in  an  Act  of 
William  IV. ;  and  Beturns  made  on  the 
Motion  of  Captain  Staepoole  in  1864  gave 
other  portions  of  the  information  now 
asked  for.  Under  these  circumstances,  he 
would  request  the  right  rev.  Prelate  to  with- 
draw his  Motion,  or  if  he  did  not  do  so  he 
should  ask  their  Lordships  to  negatire  it. 

Ths  Bishop  ot  DOWN  wished  to  state 
that  the  most  roT.  Prelate  was  in  error  in 
stating  that  the  Betums  sought  for  were 
easily  accessible,  for  the  fact  was  they  were 
spread  over  many  years,  and  were  set  forth 
in  different  reports. 

Thb  Mabquess  ot  CLANBICABDE 
thought  the  Motion  ought  to  be  acceded 
to.  The  only  reason  given  why  these 
Betums  should  not  be  given  in  the  form 
set  forth,  was  that  they  would  cause  extra 
labour  to  some  persons,  but  that  was  in 
truth  no  reason  at  all.  The  Beturas  asked 
for  ought  to  be  presented  to  the  House  in 
a  compendious  form.  He  certainly  could 
not  understand  how  their  preparation 
could  cost  much  labour,  for  the  right  rev. 
Prelate  who  offered  the  objection  stated 
in  so  doing  that  the  greater  part  of  the 
information  sought  already  existed,  though 
scattered  in  numerous  miscellaneous  papers. 
A  right  rev.  Prelate  had  moved  for  Uiese 
Beturas,  and  it  would  seem  strange  to  the 
public  if  thoy  were  refused  at  the  instance 
of  his  most  rev.  Brother. 

The  £abl  of  DEBET  was  desirous 
that  every  necessary  information  should  be 
furnished;  but  out  of  the  eight  queries 
presented  by  the  right  rev.  Prelate,  infor- 
mation had  already  been  given  in  reply  to 
seven ;  and  a  Motion  for  a  Betum  ^as  at 
present  before  the  other  House,  which 
would  be  agreed  to  by  the  Government. 
That  Betum  would  fumith  the  necessary 
information  asked  for  by  the  eighth  query. 
It  seemed  to  him  to  be  imposing  unneces- 
sary expense  and  trouble  to  call  a  second 
time  for  information  which  had  already 
been  given  in  another  form. 

The  Bishop  of  DOWN  was  surprised 
at  the  Qovemment  conceding  to  a  popular 
assembly  a  demand  which  was  refused 
when  inade  in  the  higher  branch  of  the 

Legislature.  The  Motion,  too,  in  the 
House  of  Commons,  instead  of  referring 
to  one  point  only,  was  of  a  most  volumi« 
nous  character. 

LoBD  CBANWOBTH  suggested  that 
the  right  rev.  Prelate  should  assimilate  the 
terms  of  his  Motion  as  regarded  the  in- 
formation not  already  granted,  with  those 
of  the  Motion  to  be  made  in  the  other 
House  of  Parliament  and  which  was  to  be 
given  to  the  Government. 

The  Eabl  of  DEBET  had  not  the 
slightest  objection  to  concurring  in  the 
right  rev.  Prelate's  Motion  if  he  would 
make  it  more  agreeable  to  that  moved  in 
the  other  House.  What  he  objected  to 
was  the  furnishing  the  same  information 
in  different  forms,  a  practice  which  would 
entail  a  great  deal  of  unnecessary  work 
upon  the  office. 

On  Question,  Eesolved  in  the  S$gatwe^ 

HouwtMljonmed  at  a  quarter  before 

Six  o'clock,  till  To-morrow,  half 

past  Ten  o'clock. 

Monday,  February  11, 1867. 

MINUTES.]— SiuoT  CoMMiTTn— On  Standing 
Orders  nominatied ;  Committee  of  Selection 
fiominaied;  Printing  appointed;  Public  Peti* 
tione  (Mppoinied  and  nominated. 

Supply — considered  in  ComnriUee — ReechUiont 
[February  8]  reported. 

PuBUo  BiLL-^Ordered — Valuation  of  Property. 

Firet  Reading — Valuation  of  Property  [12]. 


asked  the  Secretary  of  State  for  the  Home 
Department,  Whether,  during  the  recess, 
there  has  heen  issued  from  the  Home 
Office  any  Circular  addressed  to  the  Trus- 
tees of  those  Turnpike  Trusts  which  were 
scheduled  for  discontinuance  in  the  Conti- 
nuance Act  of  last  Session ;  if  so,  what  is 
the  nature  of  that  Circular,  and  do  the* 
GoTemment  contemplate  legislation  upon 
the  subject  of  the  turnpike  system  during 
the  present  Session?  There  was  also  a 
supplementary  Question  which  he  wished 
to  ask — ^namely.  Whether  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  intended  to  re-introduoe  that 
compensation  clause  on  the  same  subject 
which  he  had  had  the  honour  of  inserting 
in  the  Continuance  Bill  of  last  Sessioui 

2tl        Poiidl  OommunieaUan        (COMMONS) 

9cUh  ike  Huk 


vbioh  the  right  hon.  GentleiiMm  omitted, 
but  which  bmog  afterwards  moved  by  the 
hon.  Member  for  North  Warwickshire  was 
tinanimoasly  adopted  in  that  House^  though 
it  was  rejected  in  another  place  ?  As  he 
had  not  given  notice  of  his  intention  to 
ask  this  Qaestion,  he  woold,  of  course, 
postpone  it  if  necessary. 

Mb.  WALPOLE:  It  will  be  in  the 
recollection  of  the  House  that  a  vast  num- 
ber of  turnpike  trusts — ^many  more  than 
usual — were  included  in  the  Bill  of  last 
Bession ;  and  inasmuch  as  several  persons 
were  affected  hj  that  Aot»  they  were  pro- 
mised at  the  time  of  the  discussion  that 
the^  should  have  an  opportunity  of  stating 
their  case  before  the  Home  Secretary. 
Accordingly,  in  the  course  of  the  autumn 
a  circular  was  issued,  inviting,  in  fact,  any 
observations  which  they  might  have  to 
make  upon  it.  That  is  the  answer  which 
I  have  to  make  to  the  first  part  of  the 
Question  of  my  hon.  Friend.  With  regard 
to  the  nature  of  the  circular,  I  think  I 
have  explained  that.  As  for  the  second 
part  of  his  Question,  as  to  intended  legis- 
lation on  the  subject,  I  must  frankly  own 
that  so  great  are  the  difficulties  that  I 
cannot  at  present  promise  legislation  on 
the  subject  As  to  the  other  Question  of 
which  my  hon.  Friend  has  not  given  notice, 
I  would  rather  postpone  my  reply  to  it. 



Mb.  CKAWFORD  asked  the  Secretary 
of  State  for  the  Home  Department,  Whe- 
ther the  Government  are  aware  that  the 
Ecclesiastical  Commissioners  have  received 
from  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Lon- 
don an  offer 

**  To  undertske  the  eharge  of  the  Banhill 
Fields  burial  ground  m  trustebs  for  the  public, 
defraying  the  cost  of  watching,  maintaining,  and 
keofMng  it  in  a  proper  condition,  planting  trees 
and  shrubs,  keeping  up  the  gravel  walks,  and 
preserving  the  tombs,  so  that  it  may  form,  wiibin 
proper  hours,  and  under  proper  regulations,  a  de- 
cent and  ornamental  open  space  of  the  Metropolis, 
eovenanting  that,  in  the  event  of  failure  in  these 
respects,  it  shonkl  revert  to  the  Eoolesiaitical 

and  that  such  offer  has  been  declined  by 
the  Ecclesiastical  Commissioners  i 

Mb.  WALPOLE :  There  are  some  ques- 
tions which  it  is  hardly  possible  to  answer 
with  a  single  negative  or  affirmative,  and 
this  is  one  of  them.  I  believe  there  was 
some  such  application  made  some  time  ago 
on  the  part  of  the  Cit^  of  London  to  the 
Ecclesiastical  Commissioners  with  the  yiew 

Mr.  KnoMAuU'Rugeaen 

of  preserving  the  burial  grounds  as  an. 
ornamental  open  space;  but,  inasmuch  as 
there  are  large  claims  made  on  the  City  o£ 
London  with  roferonce  to  that  sobjeot* 
and  aa  a  vast  deal  of  negotiation  has  beeia 
going  on  with  regard  to  it,  I  believe  the 
best  answer  I  can  give  to  tiie  Question  is 
to  inform  the  hon.  Qentleman  that  aa  un* 
opposed  ICotion  will  be  made  to-night  for 
the  production  of  all  the  Correspondence 
on  this  subject,  which  I  believe  will  supply- 
all  the  information  which  the  hon.  Gentle- 
man desires  to  possess. 



Mb.  CRAWFORD  asked  the  President 
of  the  Board  of  Trade,  Whether  the  Re- 
turns of  the  **  Number  of  Miles  Travelled 
by  Trains,"  printed  on  page  27  of  Parlia* 
mentary  Paper,  No.  483,  ordered  to  be 
priqted  7th  August,  1866,  are  made  up  by 
the  sevOTal  Companies  referred  to  on  one 
and  the  same  principle  ? 

he  was  unable  to  state  on  what  prindple 
railway  companies  made  up  these  returns. 
He  believed  that  all  the  companies  need 
the  same  form.  And  as  they  wished  to 
know  the  number  of  miles  proper  travelled, 
exclusive  of  shunting  and  unprofitable  tra^ 
veiling,  he  would  next  year  alter  the  qaea- 
tions  put  to  the  railway  companies,  so  as 
to  meet  the  hon.  Gentleman's  wishes. 


Mb.  CRAWFORD  asked  the  Secretary 
to  the  Treasury,  If  any  steps  have  been 
taken  towards  carrying  into  effect  the 
recommendations  of  the  Select  Committee 
of  last  Session  with  reference  to  Postal 
Communication  with  the  East? 

Mb.  HimT  stated,  that  on  the  1st  of 
this  month  formal  notice  was  given  to  the 
Peninsular  and  Oriental  Steam  Navigation 
Company  to  terminate  their  contract  with 
regard  to  the  India  and  China  msils^  ao 
that  Her  Majesty's  Government  might  be 
placed  in  a  position  to  contract  for  the 
conveyance  of  mails  once  a  we^  to  Bom- 
bay. With  regard  to  the  contract  for  the 
conveyance  of  the  Australian  mails,  Her 
Majesty's  Government  had  thought  it  better 
to  defer  giving  notice  until  after  they  bad 
received  from  the  colonies  their  replies  to 
communications  which  have  been  addressed 
to  them  on  the  sulject. 



Ul  BTOE  mOOJL  asked  the  Fint 
Comndmatmr  of  Works^  When  the  pieoont 
knieade  around  Hyde  P&rk  is  iikelyto 
lie  lemoTBd ;  and  what  desoriptioii  of  Feooe 
n  to  be  ereetad  in  place  of  it  ? 

loBP  JOHN  MANKSRS  :  The  Park 
low  aeetion  of  the  fences  is  under  eon- 
tnct  to  be  completed  by  the  15th  of  Oo- 
iober  ssxt.  Other  portions  of  the  fences 
U9  motnoted  to  be  completed  hy  the  1 5th 
«f  July  next  year.  The  oharaeterof  the 
iaBce  is  a  enhstantial  one  of  iron,  and  I 
bp8^to  a  certain  extent,  ornamental.  It 
lin  be  set  in  a  granite  curb. 


IFmivABT  11»  1867)  SgfifrwL  314 

noble  Friend  that  it  is  the  intention  of 
the  OoTemmeat  to  introdnee  a  measure  on 
the  Bubjeot. 

abd  the  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland, 
Wbetiier  the  Goverament  intend  to  take 
lay  iteps  to  regltdate  the  custody  of  the 
Brnds  and  Rolls  of  Ireland  ? 

Iaed  NAAS  :  The  attention  of  the  Oo- 
renuneot  has  been  directed  to  this  question 
doriog  the  recees,  and  I  hope  to  be  able 
in  the  coarse  of  a  very  few  days  to  submit 
tsMssore  on  the  eubjeot  to  Parliament. 


CArrAiir  QBIDIj'KY  asked  the  Secretary 
©f  State  for  War,  WTien  the  Army  Es- 
tmiates  irill  be  laid  npon  the  table  of  the 
Hoose ;  and,  whether  they  will  be  con- 
adered  before  the  Kavy  Estimates  ? 

GEars&iLL  P££Xj  z  The  Army  Estimates 

'vfll  be  laid  npon  ^e  table  ot  the  House 

«a  Monday  next,  and  I  shall  bring  them 

fsrvaid  at  the  earliest  possible  period,  of 

wluch  I  will  give  due  notice.   At  present, 

1  am.  unable  to    say  whether  they  will 

^leeede  the  Navy  Estimates. 



Loan  EUSTACE  CECIL  asked  the 
Secretary  of  State  for  the  Home  Depart- 
ment, Whether  it  is  the  intention  of  the 
Gofernment  to  introduce  a  measure  for 
the  more  effectual  discovery  and  punish- 
ment of  persons  using  false  weights  and 
measures,  in  order  that  a  practice  disgrace- 
ful to  the  trading  community,  and  espe- 
cially prejudicial  to  the  interests  of  the 
poorer  classes  may  be  put  a  stop  to  ? 

Kb.  W  ALFOLE  :  I  haye  to  mform  my 



Mb.  GILPIN  asked  the  Secretary  of 
State  for  War,  When  the  Return  ordered 
in  August  last  referring  to  the  Correspond- 
enoe  of  the  Horse  Guards  with  General 
O'Connor  will  be  laid  upon  the  table? 

Gbnkbal  PEEL:  In  answer  to  the 
hon.  Gentleman,  I  have  to  say  that  I 
haye  already  laid  the  papers  on  the  table 
of  the  House. 


Kb.  GEEOORY  wished  to  ask  the 
Secretary  of  State  for  Foreign  AAurSi 
How  soon  the  Papers  will  be  laid  upon 
the  table  with  reference  to  the  Cretan 
Insurrection  ? 

LoBD  STANLEY :  I  laid  them  on  the 
table  ten  minutes  ago. 


Order  for  Consideration  of  so  much  of 
Her  Majesty's  most  gracious  Speech  as 
relates  to  the  Bepresentation  of  the  People 
in  Parliament  read. 

Thb  CHAJTCELLOB  or  thb  EXCHE- 
QUER: I  moTe  that  the  paragraph  of 
The  QuEBir's  Sfbbok  that  relates  to  the 
Representation  of  the  People  in  Parlia- 
ment may  be  read  at  the  table. 

Paragraph  in  Queen's  Speech  at  the 
opening  of  the  Session  read,  as  follows ; — 

"  Tour  Att&ntion  will  again  he  eaUed  to  the 
State  of  the  Representation  of  the  People  in 
Parliament;  and  I  trust  that  your  Delihe- 
rations,  conducted  in  a  Spirit  of  Moderation 
and  mutual  Forbearance,  may  lead  to  the 
Adoption  of  Measures  which,  without  un- 
duly disturbing  the  Balance  of  political 
Power,  shall  freely  extend  the  JEleetive 

The  CHAN^CELLOR  or  the  EXCHE- 
QUER :  I  wish.  Sir,  on  the  part  of  Her 
Majesty's  Government,  clearly  to  convey 
to  the  House  the  interpretation  which 
they  put  upon  those  gracious  words  that 
have  just  been  read,  and  which,  under 
their  advice.  Her  Majesty  deigned  to  ad- 
dress to  her  Parliament.  They  are  signi- 
ficant  words.     Her  Majesty   £rom   the 






Throne  appeals  to  the  House  of  CommotiSy 
in  deliberatiDg  on  the  most  important 
question  of  politics — ^namely,  the  distribu- 
tion of  power  in  a  State — that  they  should 
direst  themselres  of  that  party  spirit 
which,  generally  speaking,  is  the  legiti- 
mate and  efficient,  the  customary  and  con- 
stitutional, influence  by  which  all  great 
public  questions  in  this  day  are  brought 
to  a  satisfactory  settlement.  Bir,  Her 
Majesty's  Ministers  are  the  last  men  in 
this  House  who  would  depreciate  the  im- 
portance of  party ;  they  are  the  last  men 
who  would  wish  to  derogate  from  its 
legitimate  function.  In  their  opinion 
party  organization  is  the  condition  of  Par- 
liamenti^  government,  and  without  it 
they  see  no  security  for  either  efficiency  or 
independence  in  a  popular  assembly.  Nor, 
least  of  all.  Sir,  on  this  occasion  are  they 
inclined  in  any  way  to  refrain  from  ap- 
pealing to  the  support  of  those  with  whom, 
for  long  years  of  public  alliance  and  pri- 
vate friendship,  they  have  been  connected 
in  this  House.  On  the  contrary,  they 
feel — painfully  and  profoundly  feel — that 
this  is  the  occasion  of  all  others  when  they 
would  have  most  earnestly  to  appeal  for  a 
continuanoe  ef  that  support,  of  that  con- 
fidence, of  that  sympadiy,  of  that  friend- 
ship, and  even  of  that  forbearance  on 
which  they  before  rested  with  assurance. 

Sir,  the  meaning  that  they  attribute  to 
those  words  is  that,  under  the  circum- 
stances in  which  the  House  finds  itself, 
it  was  in  our  opinion  expedient  that  Par-^ 
liamentary  Beform  should  no  longer  be  a 
question  which  should  decide  the  fate  of 
Ministries.  Sir,  we  have  arrived  at  that 
conclusion  with  the  conviction  that  it  is 
one  consistent  with  our  duty  and  our 
honour  as  public  men,  and  we  hope  that 
the  House  of  Commons,  notwithstanding 
that  expression  of  opinion  from  a  very 
limited  quarter,  after  duo  consideration, 
will  also  be  of  opinion  that  such  a  course 
is  compatible  on  their  part  with  all  those 
principles  and  all  those  sentiments  that 
ought  to  influence  public  men.  And,  Sir, 
we  have  arrived  at  that  conclusion,  that  it 
is  not  for  the  advantage  of  the  country 
that  Parliamentary  Reform  should  be  a 
question  that  should  decide  the  fate  of  a 
Ministry,  that  it  should  not  be  what  is 
commonly  called  a  party  question,  for  this 
simple  but  to  us  irresistible  reason,  that  all 
parties  in  the  State  have  attempted  to  deal 
with  it,  and  all  parties  in  the  State  have 
failed.  In  1852  there  was  a  pure  Whig 
Government,  headed  by  Lord  John  Eussell, 

2J^  Chanoethr  of  ih$  Exchequer 

which  dealt  with  this  subjeet  and 
In  the  year  1854  there  was  a  Coalitiox& 
Government,  headed  by  the  Earl  of  Aber- 
deen, which  attempted  to  deal  with  tkis 
question  and  failed.  In  the  year  1859 
tiiere  was  a  Conservative  Government^ 
headed  by  the  Earl  of  Derby,  whicii 
attempted  to  deal  with  this  question, 
and  failed.  In  the  year  1860  there 
was  a  moderate  Liberal  Government^ 
headed  by  Lord  Palmerston,  which  at- 
tempted to  deal  with  this  question,  and 
failed.  In  the  year  1866  there  was  a 
Government  which  I  will  not,  notwith- 
standing the  present  rage  for  analynsp 
describe  as  an  immoderate  Liberal  Govern- 
ment— headed  again  by  Earl  Russell-— > 
which  attempted  to  d^  with  this  ques- 
tion and  fiuled. 

There  may  l)e  some  who  will  urge  these 
circumstances  as  arguments  to  show  that 
the  question  is  one  which  ought  not  to 
have  been  dealt  with,  that  there  was  no 
necessitj^  whatever  to  draw  the  attention 
of  Parliament  to  its  consideration.     Sir, 
all  that  I  have  to  say  on  the  part  of  my 
Colleagues  is  that  this  is  not  the  opinion 
of  Her  M^esty's  Government.  In  the  opi- 
nion of  Her  Majesty's  Government,  the 
seeds  for,  perhaps,  the  most  considerable 
portion  of  those  changes  that  we  oontem* 
plate,  were  sown  in  the  memorable  Act 
of  1832.     Until  the  Act  of  1832  was 
passed  the  claims  of  the  labouring  daases 
to  a  share  in  our  Parliamentary  system 
were  acknowledged,  and  their  rights  were 
enjoyed  and   practised.      Although  the 
mode  by  which  they  were  asserted  may 
not  have  been  happily  adapted  to  the  cir- 
cumstances of  the  present  century,  there 
can  be  no  doubt  that  those  claims  were 
definitely  acknowledged  and  acted  upon. 
Before  the  Act  of  1832,  for  example,  it 
was  possible  for  the  labouring  classes  to 
return  both  Members  for  Preston,  a  town 
of  now  nearly  100,000  inhabitants;  they 
might  also  have  returned  two  for  the  eity 
of  Coventry,  then,    as  now,  the  seat  of 
an  important  and  ingenious  branch  of  oar 
manufactures;   and   there  were  a  great 
many  places  in   England  in  which  they 
exercised  a  considerable,  if  not  a  prepon- 
derating, influence.    But  it  was  tiiought 
fit  at  that  time  to  abolish  those  rights  and 
privileges.     I  think  myself— I  thought  so 
then — that  was  a  great  error.     It  is  fair 
to  admit  that,  as  &ey  were  then  enjoyed 
and  practised,  those  rights  were,  perhaps, 
ill  adapted  to  our  present  social  state ;  and 
though  the  labouring  olassest  in  the  most 

217       Bepr$imtaiim  of         ]Fsbbuab7  11, 1867] 

the  People. 


eonnderable  seats  of  labour,  might  under 
the  old  machinery  not  have  been  repre- 
sented* that  was  not  a  reason  for  abolish- 
ing the  rights,  but  rather  for  remodelling 
them,  and  adapting  them  to  the  new  cir- 
cumstances with  which  statesmen  then 
had  to  deal.  Nor,  Bir,  did  the  abolition 
of  those  rights  pass  unregarded  in  ^this 
House.  Those  who  were  the  framers  of 
the  Beform  Bill,  and  who  were  supported 
with  enthusiasm  by  powerful  classes,  were 
able  then  to  override  the  objections  from 
influential  quarters.  They  were  warned 
by  some  of  the  most  eminent  authorities 
of  this  House  as  to  the  danger  and  im- 
policy of  the  course  they  were  pursuing. 
The  memorable  words  of  Sir  Robert  Peel 
on  this  subject  are  familiar  to  the  House. 
He  warned  the  Government  of  the  day 
that  in  putting  an  end  to  the  rights  of 
freemen  as  they  then  existed,  and  termi- 
nating all  those  other  means  by  which  the 
liouseholder  in  many  boroughs  registered 
his  vote  and  exercised  it,  they  were  em- 
barking in  a  course  which  eventually  must 
involve  them  in  great  danger  and  inconve- 
nience. The  rights  of  those  electors  which 
were  then  attacked  were  not  lost  for  want 
of  advocacy — and  advocacy  of  the  highest 
and  ablest  character — in  this  House.  One 
of  the  most  shining  lights  of  our  time. 
Sir  William  FoUet,  brought  those  claims 
before  the  House  on  more  than  one  occa- 
sion with  that  eloquence  for  which  he 
was  remarkable,  and  that  power  of  argu- 
ment for  which  he  was  distinguished.  The 
rights  of  the  existing  generation  were,  in 
another  place,  not  only  vindicated,  but 
saved  by  no  less  a  person  than  Lord 

Sir,  I  would  not,  especially  after  men- 
tdoning  such  names,  refer  to  anything  I 
have  myself  expressed.  Under  no  circum- 
stance, indeed,  would  I  refer  to  anything 
I  have  said  here,  merely  in  vindication  of 
myself  or  my  own  conduct.  But  if  I  hate 
made  a  decli^tion  upon  a  public  question 
of  importance  as  the  organ  of  a  party ;  if 
I  have  been  requested  by  men  of  eminence 
to  express  an  opinion  upon  some  subject 
of  public  importance  in  this  House,  I 
think  it  is  no  assumption  to  refer  to  it,  not 
as  the  expression  of  an  individual,  but,  as 
in  a  certain  sense  historic,  as  illustrative 
of  the  conduct  and  opinion  of  a  party. 
Now,  Sir,  in  1852,  when  I  first  had  the 
honour  of  a  seat  on  this  Bench,  the  ques- 
tion of  Parliamentary  Beform  was  then 
rife,  though  it  was  then  urged  in  a  very 
different  spiriti  and  with  very  different  ob- 

jects from  those  which  now  animate  its  ad- 
vocates. In  about  the  first  week — certainly 
within  the  first  month— of  our  accession 
to  Office,  it  was  absolutely  necessary  that 
we  should  come  to  a  conclusion  respecting 
the  policy  we  should  pursue  upon  that 
subject  At  that  time  what  was  called 
piecemeal  Beform  was  very  much  in 
fashion ;  and  I  think  it  was  upon  one  of 
the  Motions  of  the  hon.  Member  for  Surrey 
(Mr.  Locke  King),  which  he  brought  for- 
ward immediately  after  the  formation  of 
the  Government  of  1852,  that  it  became 
necessary  for  me  to  consult  Lord  Derby 
and  the  most  eminent  of  his  Colleagues  as 
to  the  line  we  should  pursue  respecting 
Beform.  Perhaps  the  House  will  allow 
me  to  quote  one  passage  from  what  I  said 
on  that  occasion.  I  objected  to  the  Motion 
of  the  hon.  Member  for  Surrey,  my  objec- 
tion being  a  broad  one — ^namely,  that 
Parliamentary  Beform  was  not  a  subject 
which  ought  to  be  treated  in  a  piecemeal 
manner ;  and  I  said,  with  reference  to  this 
Motion,  and  with  the  full  concurrence  of 
Lord  Derby  and  of  my  Colleagues — 

"  Bat  I  ha?e  alio  another  objection  to  this  Bill. 
I  have  often  said  to  this  House — I  repeat  it  now, 
and  it  is  the  expression  of  a  deep  and  sincere  oon- 
yiction  on  mj  part — that  I  think  in  the  construc- 
tion of  that  memorable  law,  the  Reform  Act  of 
1832,  there  was  %  Tciy  great  deflcieney,  which 
consisted  in  a  want  of  due  consideration  of  the 
rights  of  the  working  classes  to  the  franchise.  • 
Under  our  old  system,  by  the  suffrages  of  the 
fVeemen,  the  political  rights  of  the  labourer 
were  acknowledged  by  the  Constitution.  We 
virtually  destroyed  those  rightfe.  .  •  .  I  do 
not  for  a  moment  wish  now  to  maintain  that  there 
were  not  strong  reasons  why  the  existing  arrange- 
ments should  be  interfered  with :  but,  then,  I 
never  heard  a  reason  why  a  more  satis&otory 
arrangement  could  not  have  been  substituted  in 
lien  of  the  old  one.  I  trace  mtioh  of  the  discon* 
tent  in  this  country,  which  at  times  has  been 
painfully  felt,  with  regard  to  the  Reform  Act  of 
1832,  to  the  omission  to  which  1  have  adverted."" 
~[d  Hansard^  cxx.  1200.] 

That  will  at  least  show  that  the  question 
was  one  which,  having  been  taken  up 
originally,  when  the  Eeform  Act  was  in- 
troduced into  this  House,  by  a  party  in  the 
State  not  then  successful,  has  since  ncTcr 
been  entirely  deserted  by  them.  On  every 
fitting  occasion  there  have  been  expres- 
sions of  opinion  similar  to  those  just 
quoted;  but  I  have  read  this  extract  be- 
cause the  declaration  which  the  House  has 
now  heard  was  made  bv  me  as  a  Minister, 
after  duly  consulting  those  with  whom  I 
have  the  honour  to  act  Measures  of  dis- 
franchisement of  this  kind  could  not  now 
be  tolerated ;  but  in  18S2  it  was  not  diffi« 





onlfc  to  cany  them  with  impunity.  The 
position  of  the  labouring  classes  in  1832 
differed  from  their  position  in  1867;  but 
such  was  the  excitement  produced  by  the 
measure  of  1882  in  the  country  generally, 
especially  among  those  influential  classes 
who  oonsiderably  benefited  by  it,  and 
whose  power  was  immensely  increased  by 
it,  that  it  was  utterly  impossible  that  any 
policy  which  was  projected  by  the  authors 
of  the  Bill  of  1882  oould  have  been  sue- 
eessfuUy  opposed  either  in  this  House  or 
by  those  wno,  outside  the  House,  were 
more  immediately  interested  in  the  ques- 
tion. That,  however,  which  Sir  Eobert 
Peel  told  the  Government  of  Lord  Grey 
inevitably  happened.  He  urged,  as  time 
advances  and  the  country  prospers,  you 
will  find  the  labouring  class  whose  Par- 
liamentary rights  you  are  now  destroying 
will  take  the  opportunity  of  claiming  again 
the  privileges  which  you  have  thought- 
lessly taken  from  them,  and.  for  which 
you  offer  no  substitute.  Bince  1832  this 
country  has,  no  doubt,  made  great  pro- 
gress. But  it  is  during  the  last  ten  years 
Uiat  progress  has  been  most  remarkable. 
I  will  not  now  attempt  to  inquire  into 
the  causes,  the  particular  causes,  which 
have  brought  about  that  great  advance. 
But  I  think  I  may  say  there  is  one  sove- 
reign cause  which  ia  at  the  bottom  of 
everything,  and  that  is  the  increased  ap- 
plication of  science  to  social  life.  That  I 
believe  to  be  the  main  cause  of  the  vast 
changes  we  have  seen  in  the  condition  and 
feelings  of  classes.  We  are  all  familiar 
with  the  material  resulta  which  that  ap- 
plication of  science  has  produced.  They 
are  prodigious;  but,  to  my  mind,  themortd 
results  are  not  less  startling.  The  revolu* 
tion  in  locomotion,  which  would  strike  us 
daily  as  a  miracle  if  we  were  not  familiar 
with  it,  has  given  the  great  body  of  the 
inhabitants  of  this  country  in  some  d^ree 
the  enlightening  advantages  of  travel.  The 
mode  in  which  steam-power  is  applied  to 
the  printing  press  in  these  days  produces 
effects  more  startling  than  the  first  dis- 
covery of  printing  in  the  15th  century. 
It  is  science  that  has  raised  wages ;  it  is 
science  that  has  increased  the  desires  and 
the  opportunities  of  men ;  and  it  is  science 
that  has  ennobled  labl>ur.  There  are  some 
who  say  its  effects  must  be  to  equalize  the 
condition  of  men.  That  is  a  controversy. 
I  am  not  anxious  to-night  on  that  or  any 
other  subject  to  enter  into  controversy ; 
but  this,  I  think,  may  be  said — there  is 
no  doubt  that  the  application  of  science  to 

Ih  ChtmceUorc/aiJEk^hejuir 

social  life  has  elevated  the  condition  of  all 

Having  said  this  in  all  sincerity,  I  mvLst 
repudiate  an  opinion  which  is  too  preva- 
lent, and,  as  I  think,  utterly  unfounded — 
the  opinion  that,  especially  in  this  Hooso^ 
the  legitimate  claims  of  the  labouring  claas 
to  their  due  share  in  the  Parliamentary 
system  have  met  with  vexatious  opposi- 
Uon,  and  have  encountered  a  sinister  spirit 
of  neglect  and  intentional  delay.     On  the 
contrary,   Sir,  forming  my  opinion  from 
what  I  have  seen  out  of  doors,  and,  I  am 
sorry  to  add,  in  some  measure  within  these 
walls,  I  should  say  that  these  claims  havo 
been  treated  rather  with   an  Epicurean 
feeling,  which,  anxious  not  to  be  troubled 
by  the  settlement  of  a  disagreeable  and, 
perhaps,  as  some  think,  a  dangerous  ques- 
tion, would  agree  to  anything  for  imme- 
diate ease  without  any  thought  of  our  daty 
towards  those  who  may  follow  us.    All  I 
can  say  of  such  a  feeling  is  that  I  think 
it  more  dangerous  than  any  of  those  opi- 
nions which    perhaps  to-day  may  have 
alarmed  the  minds  of  some,  and  which, 
if  practised,  would  'injure  the  future  of 
those  who  preach  them.    I  have  no  hesi- 
tation in  saying  that  as  far  as  I  can  form 
an  opinion,  and  I  am  sure  on  this  head  it 
is  an  impartial  one,  I  know  of  no  great 
question — ^no  question,  I  mean,  that  largely 
influences  the  history  of  this  country,  and 
touches  the  principles  upon  which  our  Con- 
stitution rests — which  has  met  with  less 
discussion  and  with  lesft  difficulty  than  the 
one  now  engaging  our  attention. 

It  is  sometimes  said  that  Parliamentary 
Reform  has  been  a  Parliamentary  question 
for  fifteen  years.  It  is  very  true  that  the 
attention  of  Parliament  has  been  called 
to  schemes  for  re-constructing  this  House; 
but  I  deny  that  these  schemes  were  at  all 
adapted  to  supply  the  deficiency  which  wo 
are  now  considering,  or  were  at  all  con- 
ceived in  a  spirit  likely  to  bring  about  any 
satisfactory  result.  I  look  upon  the  Bill 
of  1852,  introduced  by  Lord  John  Eussell, 
as  eminently  a  premature  movement,  for  it 
did  not  even  aim  at  supplying  the  defi- 
ciency to  which  I  refer.  I  do  not  blame 
Earl  Russell  for  bringing  forward  that 
Bill.  I  have  vindicated  him  before  in  this 
House  when  attacked  upon  that  head.  I 
look  upon  the  measure  of  1852  as  strictiy 
a  measure  of  self-defence.  Lord  John 
Bussell,  who  understood  the  question  of 
Parliamentary  Beform,  found  himself  night 
after  night  attacked,  as  it  were,  hj  Mem- 
bers of  this  House  who  proposed  isolated 

2S1        BtpmmMim  of        (Febbuabt  11, 1867} 

the  People, 


measnres  applying  only  to  some  fragmen- 
fary  portion  of  the  great  qnestion  of  Be- 
fbrm.  He  knew  the  danger  which  might 
aocme  if  such  isolated  measures  were 
adopted.  He  knew  that,  whether  the  re- 
sult were  democratio  or  oligarchic,  conse- 
quences might  ensue  from  such  a  course 
whioh  would  probahly  startle  their  pro- 
posers as  much  as  anybody  eke.  Therefore, 
Lord  John  Russell,  after  five  years'  cam- 
paigning against  his  Liberal  friends,  found 
it  absolutely  necessary  to  make  some 
effort  for  a  comprehensive  settlement  of 
the  question  of  Parliamentary  Reform. 
Hon.  Qentlemen  rose  night  after  night 
bringing  forward  Motions  about  the  bo- 
rough, at  another  time  about  the  county 
fnancluse,  then  proposals  which  would  have 
completely  reyolutionized  the  whole  sys- 
tem by  which  votes  are  given  and  recorded, 
and  Lord  John  Russell  eventually  proposed 
a  scheme  to  deal  with  these  pomts.  But 
I  beg  the  House  to  remark  that  the  dis- 
turbance of  the  settlement  of  1832  did 
not  originate  with  Lord  John  Russell.  It 
originated  entirely  with  the  House  of 
Commons.  It  was  not  Lord  John  Russell, 
or  his  rivals,  or  any  body  of  public  men, 
who,  when  they  make  proposals  to  this 
House,  make  them  at  least  with  a  sense 
of  responsibility,  that  they  may  be  called 
on  to  carry  them  into  action.  That  was 
not  the  case.  It  was  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, it  was  those  whom  we  habitually 
describe  as  independent  Members,  who 
commenced  the  disturbance  of  the  settle- 
ment of  1882. 

And  here  I  would  ask  the  House  to 
reflect  on  these  two  circumstances.  The 
origin  of  Parliamentary  Reform  as  a  ques- 
tion in  the  House  of  Commons  must  be 
found  in  the  conduct  of  individuals— -of 
independent  Members  of  this  House. 
This,  therefore,  is  a  House  of  Commons 
question ;  it  is  not  a  party  question.  And 
it  is  remarkable  that  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, having  been  the  originators  of  the 
disturbance  of  the  settlement  of  1832, 
have  defeated  every  attempt  that  has  been 
made  by  organized  parties,  by  responsible 
bodies  of  men,  and  by  leaders  of  political 
connections,  to  efibct  a  settlement  of  a 
question  which  was  then  unsettled.  I  am 
bringing  no  charge  of  misconduct  against 
any  Members  of  the  House  or  against  the 
House  of  Commons  itself;  I  am  speaking 
historically  on  the  subject.  The  House  of 
Commons  may  have  been  perfectly  justified 
in  what  it  did.  I  will  not  enter  into  any 
oontroreray  to-night  on  the  course  whioh 

it  pursued.  The  Members  of  the  House 
may  have  been  justified  in  coming  forward 
and  sedulously  attempting  to  disturb  the 
settlement  of  1832.  They  may  have  been 
justified  in  defeating  any  measure  which 
may  have  been  brought  forward  by  suc- 
cessive Ministers  to  settle  the  points  in 
controversy.  All  that  I  do  not  deny; 
but  I  think  all  must  admit  that  the  House 
of  Commons,  with  r^;ard  to  this  question 
of  Parliamentary  Reform,  has  incurred,  as 
it  were,  certain  peculiar  responsibilities. 
They  originated  the  question,  and  at  the 
same  time  they  have  prevented  it  being 

Now,  though  few  will  doubt  that,  under 
these  circumstances,  the  House  of  Com- 
mons itself,  as  independent  of  any  parti- 
cular party  organization,  has  incurred  a 
general  responsibility  with  respect  to  this 
question,  it  can,  I  think,  hardly  be  denied 
that  with  regard  to  the  present  subject 
the  relations  between  this  House  and  iho 
Government  are  peculiarly  difficult  and 
peiplexing;  because  it  is  to  be  observed 
that,  although  the  House  of  Commons 
defeated  all  the  five  measures  that  were 
brought  forward  by  Lord  Russell,  Lord 
Aberdeen,  Lord  Palmerston,  and  Lord 
Derby,  they  did  in  four  of  these  instances 
permit  the  measure  to  be  read  a  second 
time;  bat  in  the  case  of  the  Bill  of  Lord 
Derby's  Government  they  thought  fit — I 
am  not  going  for  a  moment  to  question 
the  propriety  of  their  conduct — not  to 
permit  that  measure  to  be  read  a  second 
time.  Now  I  say,  without  the  slightest 
soreness  on  the  subject,  that  it  was  the 
opposition  of  Lord  John  Russell  in  1859 
that  made  Parliamentary  Reform  a  party 
question.  Until  the  vote  taken  on  that 
occasion  it  was  not  so.  Well,  no  man  is 
BO  sensible  of  the  advantages  of  free  dis- 
cussion as  myself.  I  am  edways  ready  to 
acknowledge  its  practical  value.  I  must, 
therefore,  repeat,  and  I  am  now  going  to 
prove,  the  statement  that  I  made  just 
now.  I  say  that  until  1859  Parliamen- 
tary Reform  was  not  a  Parliamentary 
question.  When  Sir  Robert  Peel,  in 
1834,  was  called  upon  to  form  a  Govern- 
ment, there  was  then  considerable  odium 
raised  against  him  owing  to  the  insinua- 
tions of  what  were  then  called  sincere 
Reformers  —  that  on  grounds  of  party 
policy  he  would  disturb  the  Act  of  1832. 
Sir  Robert  Peel  found  it  impossible  to 
make  way  against  these  unfounded  asper- 
sions unless  he  took  steps  which,  from 
&eir  grave  and  solemn  oharaoteri  would 






duly  imprett  the  public  mind.  It  was  in 
this  HouBo,  when  called  upon  to  take  the 
responsible  position  of  First  Minister, 
under  circumstances  of  yery  great  diffi- 
culiy,  that  he  made  the  solemn  declara- 
tion, with  the  complete  assent  of  all  his 
party,  that  he  would  never  seek  to  disturb 
the  settlement  of  1832.  And  that  en- 
gagement was  religiously  observed.  Al- 
&ough  the  settlement  of  1832,  With  all 
its  virtues,  and  I  have  never  denied  them, 
was  no  doubt  conceived  and  carried  with 
extreme  party  feeling,  and  in  many  of  its 
minor  provisions  highly  advantageous  to 
the  party  that  carried  them — ^I  do  not 
blame  them  for  that  —  I  say,  notwith- 
standing all  that,  the  compact  entered 
into  by  Sir  Robert  Peel  and  his  party  was 
religiously  observed;  and  it  was  not  ui^il 
1851  and  1852,  when  dark  rumours  were 
abroad  as  to  the  intentions  of  Lord  John 
Russell,  who,  in  a  very  solemn  manner, 
in  this  House  had  pledged  himself,  on  the 
faith  of  the  Whigs,  to  the  principle  of 
finality,  that  the  Conservative  party  had 
to  consider  what  course  to  take  if  Lord 
John  Russell  should  recede  from  that 
undertaking.  I  believe  I  may  say  that 
was  a  subject  which  was  considered  by 
the  most  eminent  and  leading  men — 
many  now  departed  or  lost  to  us — men 
held  in  the  highest  honour  for  their  in- 
tegrity and  public  spirit,  like  the  lato  Duke 
of  Richmond,  Lord  Gkorge  Bentinck,  Mr. 
Bankes,  and  others  who  sat  in  this  House 
—and  many  who  still  live  and  were  in 
intimate  communication  with  Lord  Derby, 
and  thev  came  to  the  resolution  that  if 
Lord  Jonn  Russell  gave  up  the  Act  of 
1832,  nothing  would  induce  them  to  take 
up  a  position  of  opposition  to  Parliamen- 
tary Reform.  And  their  course  has  been 
consistont  throughout.  There  never  was 
a  Bill  brought  forward  on  the  subject  of 
which  the  second  reading  was  opposed 
by  us. 

I  think  I  have  traced  the  question  now 
at  least  to  the  relinquishment  of  finality ; 
and  I  think  hon.  Gentlemen  will  agree 
with  me  that  there  was  no  appearance  of 
Reform  being  made  a  party  question  until 
that  period.  Many  hon.  Members  who 
sat  in  the  House  at  that  time  are  familiar 
with  what  took  place  with  regard  to  the 
subsequent  Bills.  Now,  Sir,  there  is  no 
man  whose  opinions  on  Parliamentary  Re- 
form are  spoken  of  with  more  levity  than 
Lord  Palmerston.  Some  would  conclude 
that  Lord  Palmerston  was  unquestionably 
very  Conservative  in  his  principles;  that 

3%$  ChmwUor  of  the  JBxehiqm 

he  was  entirely  opposed  to  any  change  in 
our  Parliamentary  Constitution;  and  that 
it  was  only  for  political  convenience, 
and  in  order  to  miDce  necessary  arrange- 
ments for  indispensable  Colleagues,  that 
he  ever  consented  to  the  introduction  of 
any  measure  of  Reform.  Now,  there  is 
not  the  slightest  foundation  for  any  such 
conclusion.  In  1857  Lord  Palmerston  was 
at  the  culminating  point  of  his  power. 
He  had  then  dissolved  Parliament  on  the 
China  vote,  he  had  scattered  all  his  enemies 
— even  those  who  afterwards  became  his 
friends.  The  Opposition,  with  which  I  was 
connected,  suffered,  but  probably  less  than 
most  portions  of  the  House,  in  that  penal 
dissolution.  Lord  John  Russell,  a  great 
authority  in  this  question,  only  obtained 
the  representetion  of  the  City  of  London 
as  an  act  of  courtesy,  and  the  most  power- 
ful leaders  now  on  the  subject  of  Parlia- 
mentary Reform  lost  their  seate  in  this 
House  on  that  occasion.  Lord  Palmerston 
had,  accordingly,  an  indisputeble  majority. 
He  had  none  in  his  Cabinet  at  that  mo- 
ment— though  all  men  whom  he  respected 
— ^in  a  position  to  dictete  a  policy  to  Lord 
Palmerston.  The  House  met  in  the  autumn 
of  the  same  year ;  it  was  absolutely  unneces- 
sary for  Lord  Palmerston  to  introduce  the 
question  of  Parliamentary  Reform,  and  yet 
he  recommended  it  in  the  Speech  from  the 
Throne.  What  happened  in  1858?  Lord 
Palmerston,  who  was  supposed  to  be  a  Mi- 
nister supported  by  the  most  powerful  ma- 
jority that  ever  appeared  in  Parliament, 
suddenly  lost  his  pride  of  place,  within 
twelve  months  of  his  triumphant  dissolu- 
tion ;  and  when  Lord  Palmerston  left  ofice, 
he  was  so  sensible  that ''  some  settiemenf 
—as  the  fjGishionable  phrase  was  then — was 
required,  that  he  said  if  his  successor,  Lord 
Derby,  would  give  his  earnest  attention 
to  the  subject,  and  could  see  his  way  to 
bringing  forward  a  moderate  and  well- 
considered  measure,  Lord  Derby  might  be 
certain  it  would  receive  from  him  a  fair 
and  candid  consideration.  Well,  Sir,  Lord 
Derby  did  not  conceive  that,  if  he  brought 
forward  such  a  measure,  he  could  count 
upon  any  enthusiastic  support  from  his 
opponents.  All  parties  had  not  then  tried 
their  hand  in  vain ;  and  no  circumstances 
had  then  occurred  which  could  justify  a 
Minister  in  advising  the  Crown  to  appeal 
to  Parliament  to  consider  this  question 
not  as  a  party  question.  Lord  Derby, 
however,  did  think  that  he  was  not  putting 
too  favourable  an  interpretetion  upon  an 
undertaking  that  bis  ^orto   sho^d  ro* 

325        Siprewniatim  tf         {Febbvabt  U^  1867} 

the  People, 


eeive  a  £ur  and  candid  consideration, 
when  he  condaded  that  if  he  did  bring 
forward  a  measure,  prepared  with  care 
and  labour,  it  should  at  least  be  read  a 
secodd  time  and  receive  a  fair  considera- 
tion from  Parliament.  But  that  did  not 
proTO  to  be  the  case,  Notwithstanding 
this  declaration  of  Lord  Palmerston,  and 
notwithstanding  the  efforts  that  Lord 
Palmerston  made,  the  House  of  Commons 
set  at  defiance  his  authority,  and  a  private 
Member  brought  forward  an  Amendment 
which  gave  a  totally  different  colour  to 
the  conduct  of  the  House.  And  who 
was  that  individual  ?  Why,  it  was  Lord 
John  Bussell.  Lord  John  Bussell  then 
sat  below  the  gangway;  he  was  not  a 
Member  of  the  Government  that  had  re- 
tired from  Office ;  he  was  not  then  a  proxi* 
mate  Minister,  He  occupied,  indeed,  a 
commanding  position,  such  as  a  man  of  his 
achievements,  high  character,  and  talents 
always  would  command  in  this  House; 
but  he  was  then  in  the  position  of  a 
private  Member  of  Parliament.  Well, 
the  House  of  Commons  followed  Lord  John 
Bussell,  so  that  it  was  again  the  House 
of  Commons  that  came  forward,  and  by 
that  vote  made  it,  I  say,  a  party  question. 
I  do  not  object  to  the  conduct  of  Lord 
John  Bussell.  I  am  not  contending 
about  the  decision  which  the  House 
arrived  at,  as  far  as  the  decision  itself 
was  concerned,  on  the  Bill  of  1859;  but 
this  I  do  say,  that  it  was  a  ver^  great 
responsibility  on  the  part  of  the  Hx>use  of 
Commons  to  throw  out  that  Bill,  and  then, 
when  they  had  forced  a  change  of  Ministry, 
to  be  unable  to  carry  their  opinions  into 

Sir,  I  have  thus  shown  that  the  posi- 
tion of  the  House  of  Commons,  with  regard 
to  this  question  of  Parliamentary  Beform, 
is  different  from  that  which  exists  between 
the  House  generally  and  all  other  great 
questions,  which  are  introduced  and  ini- 
tiated in  this  House  by  a  body  of  men 
who  are  in  the  possession  of  office,  or  who 
are  candidates  for  .office,  and  who  there>* 
fore  ought  not  to  shrink  from  tlie  responsi- 
bility of  carrying  their  opinions  into  effect. 
I  have  shown  that  the  House  of  Com- 
mons,  as  regards  the  present  Ministry  and 
.that  particular  subject,  is  in  a  very  per- 
plexing position,  and  ttds  position  increases 
its  responsibility.  For,  with  the  greatest 
respect — without  the  slightest  desire  of 
giving  offence  to  any  Member  of  the 
House,  which  would  be  foreign  to  my 
nature— I  must  at  once  say  that  the  coun- 

YOLt  CLXXXV.    [thi«o  sbuxs.] 

try  upon   this  question    cannot  bear  a 
repetition  of  the  mancBUvres  of  1859.     It 
cannot  endure  that  a  measure  should  be 
thrown  out  upon  some  cunning  or  cap- 
tious point  of  detail,  and  that  then  those 
who   have    incurred    the    responsibility 
should  shrink  from  fulfilling  tiieir  duty 
by  carrying  a  meaE|ure   on  this  subject. 
Well,  then,  we  have  to  consider,  under  tiiese 
difficult  circumstances,  what  is  the  course 
that  we  ought  to  undertake ;  and.  Sir,  it 
does  appear  to  us — considering  that  the 
House  of  Commons  itself  disturbed  the  set- 
Uement  of  1832,  considering  that  the  House 
itself  on  five  different  occasions  baffled  the 
efforts  of  five  Governments  to  secure  that 
re-settlement  which  they  have  rendered 
necessary,    considering    also   that    with 
regard  to  those  who  at  present  sit   on 
these  Benches  the  House  has  prevented 
any  measure  which  they  brought  foward 
from  being  submitted  to  criticism  in  detaU 
by  allowing  it    to  go   into   Committee, 
and  thus  frustrated  the  fulfilment  of  the 
expectations  of  the  country  when  they  ac- 
ceded to  power — it  does  seem  to  us  that  in 
a  position  of  so  much  difficulty  it  is  wise 
to  reflect  whether  there  is  not  some^  course 
that  should  be  pursued  which,  without 
diminishing  the  aue  responsibility  of  Mi- 
nisters, would,  at  least,  insure  the  House 
upon  this  question  from  such  unfortunate 
mishaps  as  have  on  previous   occasions 
been  experienced  by  Governments  that 
have  attempted  to  deal  with  this  question. 
It  does  seem  to  us  that  this  is,  from  the 
causes  that  I  have  recapitulated,  one  of 
those  cases— of  great  difficulty,  no  doubt, 
and  surrounded  by  circumst^ces  of  exi- 
gency which  cannot    be  denied — which 
have  been  contemplated  by  the  wisdom  of 
our  Parliamentary  practice ;  and  that  we 
are  pursuing  only  a  constitutional  course 
when  we  presume  to  recommend  to  the 
House  that  before  we  introduce  a  BiU  we 
may  be  permitted,  upon  its  main  principles, 
and  upon  other  points  of  great  and  para- 
mount importance,  to  ask  the  opinion  of 
the  House,  and  see   whether  they  will 
sanction  the  course  which  we  recommend. 
That,  Sir,  is  a  course  which  we  believe  to 
be,  under  the  circumstances,  strictly  con- 
stitutional.   It  is  a  course  which  we  be-* 
lieve  ought  not  to  be  resorted  to,  unless 
the    circumstances  are  circumstances   of 
exigency;  and  when  we  appeal  to  the 
House  to  permit  us  to  adopt  that  course, 
we  say,  without  thrusting  our  individual 
feelings  upon  the  House,  that  in  so  acting 
we  are  impelled  by  as  pure  a  sense  of 






public  duty  as  ever  influenced  any  body  of 

Sir,  I  will  not  notice  the  first  and  sove- 
reign objection  which  may  be  urged,  under 
ordinary  circumstances,  to  a  proposition  of 
proceeding  by  way  of  Besolution  in  this 
House  ;  because,  if  the  circumstances  to 
which  I  have  now  fully  adverted,  if  the 
relations  of  the  House  to  this  subject  of 
Parliamentary  Beform,  if  the  necessity  of 
bringing  this  question  to  a  settlement,  are 
not  sufficient,  I  have  no  arguments   to 
urge.    But  there  are  other  objections  to 
that  course  which  have  been  offered,  and 
on  which  for  a  moment  I  will  dwell.    It 
is  said  that  there  are  disadvantages  in  pro- 
ceeding by  way  of  Resolution,  indepen- 
dent of  the  great  constitutional  objection 
which  nothing  but  exigency  could  OTcrride, 
and  the  first  is  that  to  proceed  hj  Besolu- 
tions  induces  delay.    Well,  Sir,  m  answer 
to  that  I. say,  with  great  respect,  that  I  do 
not  think  proceeding  by  Reoolutions  does 
induce  delay.     I  have  no  doubt  that  there 
may  be  circumstances  in  which  men,  or 
even  the  House,  not  unwilling  to  trifie 
with  a^uestion  might  lose  a  great  deal  of 
time  upon   Resolutions,   and  take  steps 
which  would  make  consequent  legislation 
impossible,  at  least  for  that  Session.    But, 
Sir,  assuming  a  case  such  as  that  which 
exists,  and  that  the  Resolutions  are  brought 
forward  by  a  Ministry  as  the  basis  of  legis- 
lation to  which  they  will  be  prepared  to 
froceed  when  the  Resolutions  ore  passed, 
cannot  myself  believe  that  there  is  any- 
thing even  in  the  theory  of  Resolutions 
wHich  leads  to  delay.    It  is  very  true  that 
you  seem  to  do  twice  what,  under  ordinary 
circumstances,  it  might  be  necessary  only 
to  do  once ;  but,  then,  the  House  knows 
very  well  that  the  discussions  on  principles 
which  take  place  upon  the  second  reading 
of  a  Bill,  and  upon  all  the  various  Amend- 
ments which  opposition  in  the  case  of  public 
measures  gives  opportunity  for — that  all 
those  discussions  are  anticipated  by  the  dis- 
cussions on  Resolutions,  and  that  you  may 
very  well  pair  the  discussions  upon  Resolu- 
tions  against  the  discussions  upon  all  the 
vitalpointsofameasure.  Practically, more- 
over, I  do  not  find  that  proceeding  by  Reso- 
lutions upon  great  and  important  subjects, 
where  otherwise  there  would  be  circum- 
stances of  great  difficulty,  has  led  to  delay. 
The  instances  are  not  numerous,  because 
the  House  has  rarely  adopted  that  method, 
and  of  course  I  am  only  referring  to  cir- 
eumstances  of  an  extraordinarv  character, 
not  to  oases  where  we  are  obliged  by  the 

The  Ciancelhr  of  the  JSh^^ejuer 

orders  of  the  House  to  have  recourse  to  it  ; 
but  on  looking  over  the  few  instances  that 
are  recorded  in  the  Journals  of  the  House^ 
it  does  not  appear  to  me  that  proceeding 
by  Resolutions  has  induced  delay.  Of 
this,  at  least,  I  am  certain,  that  it  has,  I 
think,  in  every  instance  been  followed  by 
successful  legislation,  and  that,  generally 
speaking — indeed,  with  scarcely  an  excep- 
tion—in  the  very  year  in  which  the  Reso- 
lutions have  been  brought  forward.  The 
case  of  the  India  Resolutions  is  the  last 
instance,  and  one  with  which  we  are  all 
familiar ;  but  I  may  remind  those  who 
were  not  then  Members  of  the  House,  that 
there  was  a  very  strong  struggle  upon  that 
measure.  In  that  case,  if  my  memory  is 
not  incorrect,  between  the  passing  of  the 
last  Resolution  and  the  third  rending  of 
the  India  Bill  the  interval  was  only  a 
month.  Therefore,  I  do  not  think  that 
the  House  upon  refiection  will  object  to 
proceed  by  Resolution  on  the  groundless 
assumption  that  it  will  produce  delay,  if 
the  House,  should  agree,  to  the  principle  I 
have  previously  advanced,  that  there  are 
circumstances  of  extraordinary  exigency 
which  necessitate  that  course.  Then  it  is 
said  that  Resolutions  are  vague.  WeUp 
Sir,  I  admit  that  Resolutions  must  be 
vague  to  a  certain  extent  and  in  a  certain 
sense.  If  you  would  produce  Resolutions 
with  all  the  precision  of  clauses  in  a  Bill, 
there  would  not  be  the  slightest  necessity 
to  go  into  Committee  on  Resolutions.  The 
object  of  Resolutions  is  to  obtain  the  opi- 
nion of  the  House  upon  the  main  princi- 
ples on  which  your  measure  should  be 
founded ;  and,  upon  all  other  questions  in 
which  the  main  principles  are  not  con- 
cerned, but  which  may  be  of  vast  import- 
ance, to  obtain  the  opinion  of  the  House, 
and  defer  to  that  opinion  if  it  does  not  ap- 
prove  them.  With  regard  to  the  applica- 
tion of  the  principles  to  details,  of  course 
it  would  be  the  duty  of  the  Government 
to  submit  with  pleasure  and  readiness  to 
all  suggestions  made  by  the  House  which 
might  lead  to  a  more  p^fect  and  complete 

Well,  Sir,  upon  the  ground  of  delay, 
I  trust  that  our  course  will  not  be  op- 
posed. With  regard  to  the  vagueness 
of  Resolutions,  I  will  say  this,  that  if  a 
Ministry  are  determined,  if  the  Resolutions 
are  carried,  to  introduce  a  Bill,  there  is 
no  body  of  men  more  interested  in  the 
precision  of  the  Resolutions  than  the  Go- 
vernment itself.  It  is  not  our  interest  to 
bring  forward  vague  Resolutions,    Wo 

S99       BipreBmUiHm  of         {Tebbvaxt  ll,  1867] 

ih  Pioph. 


wtnt  to  get  ftom  .the  Hooae  mioh  a  sane- 
tio&  of  our  riewBy  and  saeh  aasutance  hy 
the  ezpreanon  of  their  owHi  as  that  we 
can  hnng  in  a  Bill  which  will  pass  with 
promptitade.  And  therefore  th^e  vague 
Reeolutions  are  exactly  what  we  ahould 
aToidy  as  they  would  not  asnat  us  in  our 
oourae.  I  want  to  meet  this  question 
fairly,  heoanse  I  am  sure  it  will  facilitate 
our  fbture  course  if  we  can  arrive  as  soon 
as  possible,  and  as  much  as  possible,  at  a 
mutual  understanding.  I  will  take  one 
of  the  most  difficult  questions  which  can 
occur  in  the  Besolutions.  Our  first  Eeso- 
Intion  probably  must  refer  to  the  exten- 
sion of  the  suffrage.  Well,  if  I  bring 
fortrard  a  Eesolution  which  merely  de- 
dares  that  it  is  expedient  that  there  diould 
be  an  extension  of  the  suffinge  in  counties 
and  boroughs,  I  should  call  that  a  vague 
Besolution.  The  House  is  agreed,  and 
has  agreed,  not  only  in  this  but  in  pre« 
ceding  Houses,  and  in  an  unmistakable 
manner,  that  tiiere  should  be  a  conside- 
rable extension  of  the  sufihige  in  counties 
and  boroughs' ;  but  the  House,  certainly 
not  this  House,  has  never  yet  formally 
stated  the  mode  by  which  the  extension 
should  take  place.  But  if  a  Besolution  is 
brought  forward  proposing  the  mode  by 
which  extension  should  take  place,  either 
by  the  creation  of  other  franchises  or  the 
redaction  of  existing  tenures  of  franchise, 
why  then  you  have  a  Besolution  which 
advances  the  question.  If,  however,  I  am 
asked,  as  I  am  told  I  shall  be  asked,  who* 
ther  it  is  not  useless  to  bring  forward  Be- 
solations  on  such  a  question  as  the  fran- 
chise without  defining  and  describing 
minutely  the  qualification,  then  I  say  that 
is  an  unreasonable  condition.  I  say  an 
unreasonable  condition,  because  it  is  a 
oo&dition  impossible  for  any  GK>vemment 
to  comply  with.  If  you  propose  a  Beso- 
lution which  declares  that  it  is  expedient 
the  fininohise  should  be  extended  by  its 
teductioD-*-that  is  a  principle  which,  when 
laid  down,  cannot  be  misunderstood.  But 
how  are  you  to  settie  the  amount  of  the 
franchise?  Take  your  borough  franchise 
—how  can  you  fix  in  your  Besolution, 
even  if  you  agree  to  the  principle  of  its 
rednotbn,  the  amount  of  your  franchise, 
when  that  mnst  depend  upon  principles 
not  less  important  than  the  extension 
itself?  I  wish  to  illustrate  this  point. 
The  amount  of  the  franchise  depends 
»pon  many  consideiationa,  but  it  de- 
pends naiaiy  upon  one  priac^de  of  the 
giMtest  impostanosy  and  that  u  a  prinoi^ 

pie  on  which  this  House  has  given  an 
equivocal  and  ambiguous  decision;  yet 
without  a  right  appreciation  and  a  clear 
conception  of  which  it  is  impossible  to 
make  any  propoAil  to  the  House  which 
can  lead  to  a  practical  result.  I  mean  the 
basis  upon  which  your  franchise  shall  rest 
—namely,  the  principle  of  rating.  Until 
you  decide  what  shall  be  the  basis  of  your 
franchise,  how  is  it  possible  in  a  Besolu* 
tion  to  come  forward  and  recommend  a 
particular  amount?  I  mention  this  be- 
cause it  may  be  thrown  in  our  teeth  if  we 
do  not  propose  the  exact  amount  of  the 
borough  franchise  that  we  are  trifling 
with  the  subject,  but  I  say  that  it  is 
utterly  impossible  if  you  proceed  by  Be- 
solution. Ton  must  have  a  Besolution  to 
decide  whether  the  basis  of  your  franchise 
is  to  be  rating  or  not.  I  will  not  trouble 
the  House  with  too  many  details  of  the 
character  of  the  Besolutions,  which,  if  the 
House  will  give  me  the  opportunity,  I  in* 
tend  to  propose.  They  will  be,  I  hope,  in 
the  hands  of  Members  to-morrow  morning; 
but,  perhaps,  the  House  will  permit  me 
to  advert  to  one  or  two  points  upon  which 
I  think  it  highly  important  this  House 
should  come  to  a  clear  and  unequivocal 
decision.  And  I  must  say  that  I  am  anx« 
ious  the  House  shall  decide  on  what  prin* 
ciple  they  mean  to  construct  the  House  of 
Commons.  Do  they  mean  to  re-construct 
it  on  the  principle  of  the  English  Consti- 
tution ;  or  do  they  mean  to  re-construct  it 
on  the  principles  of  the  Constitution  of 
any  other  country  ?  I  think  it  very  im- 
portant that  this  question  shall  be  de- 

Now,  Sir,  Her  Majesty's  Government 
intend,  if  they  can,  and  if  this  House 
will  allow  them,  to  re-construct  this 
House  on  the  principles  of  the  English 
Constitution.  I  will  not  advert  to  any 
remarks  which  I  may  have  made  before 
on  this  subject,  or,  at  least,  I  should  like 
not  to  advert  to  them,  because  it  is  painful 
to  repeat  oneself;  but  it  is  better  to  be 
wearisome  than  to  be  ambiguous  on  this 
subject.  We  think  that  the  English 
Constitution  is  not  a  mere  phrase.  We 
believe  that  we  live  under  a  monarchy, 
modified  in  its  action  by  the  co-ordinate 
authority  of  Estates  of  the  Bealm,  and 
we  look  upon  the  Commons  of  England, 
whom  we  represent,  as  one  of  those  Es- 
tates. Sir,  I  know  it  has  been  said  that 
this  is  merely  an  arobsdologioal  view  of 
the  Constitution  of  England ;  but  I  think 
I  can  i^ow  the  House  that  they  will  be 





very  unwise  if  they  quit,  without  due 
ooDsideration,  the  ancient  traditiona  of  the 
polity  under  which  they  liye,  and  under 
whi<m    this    country    has   so  singularly 
flourished.    Undoubtedly,  under  the  great 
vicissitudes    of   centuries,    the    relations 
between  the  Estates  of  the  Bealm  in  this 
country  have  greatly  altered  and  changed. 
Ko  doubt,  the  Commons  whom  we  repre- 
sent have  absorbed  the  greater  part  of  the 
authority  which  those  Estates  once  them* 
selves  exercised ;  but  I  think  I  can  show 
the  House  that  this  is  no  reason  why  we 
should  forget  the  constitutional  scheme 
under  which  this  country  has   so  long 
prospered,  but  rather,  if  deeply  and  fairly 
considered,  why  we  should  cling  to  that 
scheme  as  our  only  sunriving  guide  against 
the  impending  perplexities  that  surround 
us.    1^0  doubt,  the  Commons  of  England, 
by  the  immense  increase   of  population 
and  property,  have  assumed  a  character 
with  reference  to  the  other  Estates  which 
never  was  contemplated   in  the  days  of 
the  Plantagenets  and  the  Tudors.    But 
it  is  a  very  great  error  to  suppose  that 
it  is  merely  the  increase  of  population 
and  property  on  the  part  of  the  Commons 
which  has  brought  about  the  present  form 
of  the  English  Constitution  and  the  pre- 
sent character  and  functions  of  tiie  House 
of  Commons.    Take  one  of  l^ese  Estates. 
Take  the  Peerage  of  England.    That  is  a 
very  powerfal  body.    It  is  probably  the 
wealthiest  body  in  the  world,  and  it  pos- 
sesses particularly  the  kind  of  property 
which  is  most  popular  in  England,  because 
it  is  a  tenure  connected  with  the  fulfilment 
of  duties — I  mean  the  land.    IJor  are  the 
power  and  influence  of  the  Peerage  to  be 
measured  by  their  property.  '  Their  social 
influence— I  use  the  word  in  a  lai^  sense 
—-their  national  influence,  is  yery  great. 
I  have  often  myself  felt  tlutt  the  power  of 
the  Peerage  is  greater  in  eyery  part  of 
England  than  in  their  own  House.   What, 
then,  has  placed  the  Commons  of  England 
in  the  commanding  position  which  they 
now  occupy  ?    It  is  the  doTelopment  of 
our  financial  Constitution.   It  is  the  claim 
that  we  asserted  two  centuries  ago-^par- 
tially  recognised  then,  and  now  completely 
established,  which  has  practicidly  placed 
in  this  House  the  taxing  power.    That  is 
the  cause  of  the  position  and  character  of 
the  Commons  of  England.    The  moment 
that  power  was  established,  every  class, 
every  interest  in  this  counhy,  soaght  ra> 
presentation  in  this  House,  and  naturally, 
because  in  this  House  alone  can  they 

Th9  Chancellor  ofihe  B»ch$pm 

defend  their  rights  an4  their  property. 
People  complain  of  the  influence,  the 
undue  influence,  of  the  Peerage,  in  the 
House  of  Commons.  Why,  Sir,  the  in* 
fluence  of  the  Peerage  in  the  House  of 
Commons  is  not  a  usurpation  of  our  rights: 
it  is  a  deference  to  our  authority.  And 
so  it  is  with  all  interests.  Here  they  oome 
because  here  power  is  reposed,  and  it  is 
here  only  that  they  can  be  guarded  in 
respect  to  the  exercise  of  that  power  by 
the  presence  of  their  representatives.  The 
consequence  is  tiiat  every  class  and  eyery 
interest  has  sought,  and  to  a  certain  de* 
gree  has  obtain^,  representation  in  this 
House.  That  is  the  cause  of  the  yariety 
of  our  character.  But  is  it  the  variety  of 
our  character  that  has  given  us  our  delibe- 
rative power  ?  It  is  our  deliberatiye  power 
that  has  given  us  our  hold  upon  the  Execa* 
tiye;  and  it  is  this  hold  upon  the  Execa* 
tive  which  is  the  beet,  ay,  the  only  security 
for  our  freedom. 

Well,  Sir,  Her'  Majesty's  Oovemment 
can  counsel   and  countenance  no  conise 
that  will  diange  that  varied  character  of 
the   House  of   Commons;    they  respect 
and  reverence    the  causes    which    haye 
eleyated  a  rude  popular  Assembly  of  the 
days  of  the  Plantiqg;enets  into  a  Senate 
which  commands  the  admiration  of  tlie 
world.   We  do  not  flnd  that  there  is  any  se- 
curity for  retaining  that  character  unless  we 
oppose  a  policy  which  giyes  to  any  class  in 
this  country — I  care  not  whether  it  be 
high  or  low,  whether  it  be  influenoed  by  a 
democratical  or  by  an  oligarchical  feeling 
— ^a  preponderant  power  in  this  Honse. 
And  therefore,  in  any  measures  that  we 
may  bring  forward,  we  shall  assert  that 
the  electiye  franchise  must  be  regarded  as 
a  popular  privilege,  and  not  as  a  demo- 
cratic right.    If,  Sir,  we  wanted  to  see 
what  are  the  consequences  of  allowing  one 
class  in  a  popular  Assembly  to  haye  a 
preponderating  influence,  what  is  passing 
in  the  world  at  the  present  time  is  fmitM 
of  instruction.    I  never  presume  to  criti* 
cize  the  institutions  of  other  States.    In- 
deed, I  hold,  and  hold  most  sincerelyt  as  a 
general  principle,  that  the  institutions  of 
every  country  are  pretty  well  adapted  to 
the  population  who  live  under  them.  Bat, 
take  the  instance  of  our  nearest  neigh- 
bour.   There  is  France,  in  the  very  van  of 
civilisation,  perhaps — ^if  I  were  not  in  the 
House  of   Commons  and  in  England  I 
might  even  venture  to  8ay-*the  first  of 
European  nations,  inferior  to  none  in  yit*^ 
city  of  mind|  in  acute  intelleo^  in  wonde^ 

B3S       SsprumiiUian  of  |Feb&itabt  llj  1867)  * 

the  PiopU. 


fill  peneveranoe,  and  in  that  patriotio 
fbeling  which  always  follows.    Well,  this 
gifted  nation  has  a  popular  Assembly,  and 
it  is  elected  by  nniversal  suffrage.    Does 
any  one  pretend  that  the  Legislative  As- 
sembly of  France  is  equal  in  European  con- 
sideration to  the  House  of  Commons  ?    If 
there  be  any  Englishman  who  thinks  that 
the  Legislative  Assembly  of  France  can 
claim  that  position,  I  am  sure  there  4s  no 
Frenchman  who  does  so.   But  it  may  be  as- 
serted that  our  institutions  are  not  suited 
to  a  Latin  race,  and  that  the  Constitution  of 
France  was  suddenly  and  rudely  invented 
under  circumstances  of  disorder  and  dis- 
turbance.    Well,  then  take  the  case  of 
the  United  States  of  America.  There  you 
have  a  Hoase  of  Eepresentatives,  framed 
by  the  children  of  our  loins,  and  certainly 
nnder  the  inspiration  of  as  pure  a  patriot- 
ism as  ever  existed.    That  also  is  elected 
by  universal  suffrage.     Bat  does  anyone 
contend  that  the  House  of  Representatives 
at  Washington  can  equal  in  authority  the 
House  of   Commons?    And  what  is  the 
caase  of  this  ?    Why,  no  doubt  the  Ame- 
rican nation  is  inferior  to  us  in  no  point ; 
it  is  of  the  same  blood,  the  same  brains, 
the  same  intelligence,  of  equal  energy, 
perhaps   of   more    enterprize ;    but   the 
House  is  elected  by  one  class;  there  is 
no  variety  in  it.    And  so  the  Legislative 
Assembly  of  America,  like  that  of  France, 
can  neither  of  them  rule  the  country  in 
which  it  is  established.    I  would  hardly 
venture  to  refer  to  another  case,  but  there 
is  one  further  example  for  our  guidance. 
You  have  now  a  German  Parliament  in- 
stituted.    Now,  I  am  proud  of  our  coun- 
trymen, but  I  do  not  suppose  there  is  any 
man  in  this  House  at  this  moment  who 
will  pretend  that  for  intellectual  power 
we  are  superior  to  the  German  nation. 
That  gifted  people  have  now  a  Parlia- 
ment; that  Parliament  is  elected  by  uni- 
versal suffrage,  and  we  find  that  the  Mi- 
nisteiB  of  the  King  are  not  to  sit  in  it. 
Thus  we  have  these  extremely  popular  and 
representative  institutions  elected  by  one 
preponderating  class ;  and  what  do  we  see 
are  the  consequences?     Why,  that  the 
Assembly  loses  all  that  which  we  believe, 
and  justly  believe,  to  be  the  characteristic 
of  the  House  of  Commons.  It  loses  it  from 
the  want  of  that  variety  of  elements  which 
gives  various  wisdom,  various  knowledge, 
deliberative  power,  and,  by  deliberative 
power,  such  a  moral  command  over  society 
that  it  willingly  intrusts  to  it  a  great  por- 
tion of  the  Executive  of  the  country. 

Well,  Sir,  with  these  views,  considering 
the  doctrines  that  are  now  preached,  the 
violent,  the  thoughtless,  the  pernicious  doc- 
trines which  are  now  circulated,  we  cannot 
pretend  to  enter  upon  the  laborious  and 
responsible  task  which  we  are  otherwise 
willing  to  undertake,  unless  the  House 
of  Commons  will,  by  some  Eesolution,  de« 
dare  an  opinion  in  harmony  with  the 
general  sentiment  I  have  now  expressed. 
There  are  other  subjects  on  which  I  think 
it  is  of  the  utmost  importance  that  the 
House  should  come  to  a  decision,  and  by 
its  coming  to  a  decision  upon  which  sub- 
sequent legislation  may  be  greatly  facili- 
tated. I  need  refer  but  slightly  to  the 
principle  to  which  I  have  adverted  as  the 
basis  of  our  legislation  on  the  franchise— 
namely,  the  principle  of  rating.  I  admit 
that  in  the  year  1859,  having  endeavoured 
to  bring  forward  a  scheme  which  founded 
our  suffrage  on  that  principle,  I  was  re- 
luctantly obliged  to  give  it  up,  the  diffi- 
culties were  then  so  great,  the  anomalies 
so  glaring,  and  the  consequences  to  which 
it  would  have  led  so  absurd.  But  since 
that  time  the  course  of  legislation  in  this 
House  has  greatly  lessened  those  diffi- 
culties. A  Bill  introduced  by  the  right 
hon.  Member  for  Wolverhampton  (Mr.  C.  P. 
Yilliers)  on  the  subject  of  union  rating, 
has  greatly  contributed  to  this  result.  But 
I  hope  that  to-night  my  hon.  Friend  the 
Secretary  to  the  Treasury  (Mr.  Hunt)  will 
have  an  opportunity  of  bringing  in  a  mea- 
sure which  will  entirely  remove  all  the 
remaining  difficulties  connected  with  this 
matter.  Under  these  circumstances,  we 
trust  the  House  will  assent  to  a  Eesolu- 
tion affirming  that  rating  shall  be  the  basis 
of  the  franchise. 

Sir,  there  are  one  or  t^o  other  points 
to  which,  if  I  am  not  wearying  the 
House,  I  should  like  to  allude.  Among 
them  is  one  of  the  most  difficult  of 
all  questions  —  namely,  the  distribution 
of  seats.  Now,  upon  that  subject  there 
are  two  schools  of  opinion,  which  are  as 
much  at  variance  as  upon  the  subject  of 
the  franchise  itself.  There  is  a  school  that 
would  re-construct  the  electoral  map  of 
England.  We  hear  sometimes  that  the 
map  of  Europe  is  to  be  re-constructed. 
There  is  also  a  school  in  this  country 
which  would  re-construct  the  electond 
map  of  England.  On  the  other  hand, 
there  are  those  who  approach  this  ques- 
tion with  great  hesitation.  They  find  an 
ancient  and  complex  arrangement,  but,  at 
the  same  time,  one  which|  for  a  consider- 




Ss/onn — 


able  period,  has  contributed,  as  they  think, 
to  the  representation  of  a  country  like 
England,  having  a  variety  of  interests,  with 
fiuccess.  It  is  impossible  in  this  country  to 
think  on  this  subject  and  not  to  be  struck 
by  the  apparently  providential  manner  in 
which  an  almost  obscure  island  in  the  days 
of  the  Norman  Kings,  with  but  a  limited 
population  and  slight  resources,  has  de- 
veloped itself  into  a  magnificent  and  un- 
paralleled Empire.  Through  the  rude 
institutions  of  the  Plantagenets  and  Tu- 
dors,  however,  the  means  have  been  found 
of  representing  interests  so  vast,  so  various, 
BO  infinitely  complex,  as  those  which  are 
bound  up  with  the  England  of  the  present 
day.  Those  who  are  impressed  with  that 
conviction  will,  I  am  sure,  concur  with 
me  in  the  opinion  that  upon  the  question 
of  the  re-distribution  of  seats  we  must  pro- 
ceed with  the  utmost  circumspection.  Any 
attempt  to  portion,  according  to  certain 
symmetrical  arrangements,  the  representa- 
tion of  the  country  would  probably  end  in 
altering  the  character  of  this  House,  and, 
by  altering  its  character,  deprive  it  of  its 
authority.  I  think  that  before  we  intro- 
duce our  Bill  we  have  a  right  to  ask  the 
House  to  give  us  their  opinion  upon,  and 
I  hope  their  sanction  to,  certain  principles 
upon  which  we  propose  to  act.  One  of 
those  principles  is  that  no  borough  should, 
80  far  as  the  re-distribution  of  seats  is 
concerned,  be  wholly  disfranchised.  We  are 
in  favour  of  this  principle  for  two  reasons. 
We  look  upon  it,  m  the  first  place,  as  wise 
and  necessary  that  the  representation  of 
the  country  should,  'as  far  as  lies  in  our 
power,  be  distributed ;  and  we  regard  it 
as  unwise  and  unnecessary  to  disturb  any 
centre  of  representation,  because  it  is  im- 
possible, in  an  age  of  rapid  growth,  when 
communities  so  rapidly  rise  and  vanish, 
when  the  changes  and  alterations  of  so- 
cial arrangements  are  so  evanescent,  to 
proceed  with  too  much  circumspection. 
Speaking,  then,  for  myself  and  my  Col- 
leagues, we  are  of  opinion  that  no  borough 
should  be  wholly  disfranchised  so  far  as 
the  re-distribution  of  seats  is  concerned — 
for  I  am  far  from  saying  that  if  bribery  be 
proved  to  exist  in  a  borough,  as  we  have 
reason  to  fear  and  believe  it  may  be  in 
the  case  of  some — we  ought  to  show  our- 
selves more  deficient  in  spirit  than  our 
predecessors,  and  I  trust,  under  such  cir- 
cumstances, we  should  know  how  to  act. 
Our  main — mind,  I  do  not  say  our  sole — 
consideration,  in  altering  the  apportion- 
ment of  the  representation  would,  in  the 

The  Chancellor  of  the  JEscchejuer 

second  place,  be  to  supply  representatives 
to  places  now  unrepresented,  but  which, 
are,  from  a  variety  of  causes,  entitled  to 
the  privilege.  These  are  the  two  princi- 
ples by  which  we  would  be  guided  on  the 
question  of  the  re-distribution  of  seats;  and 
unless  we  have  from  the  House  their 
sanction  with  respect  to  these  two  points 
all  our  arrangements  must  prove  peifectly 
useless,  for  hon.  Members  must  feel  that 
we  might  then  have  an  Amendment  on  the 
second  reading  of  the  Bill  which  we  might 
introduce,  founded,  perhaps,  on  the  case 
of  some  obscure  borough,  but  so  ingeniously 
worded  that  the  fate  of  the  measure  might 
depend  upon  it.  I  have  to  apologize  to 
the  House  for  having  gone  so  much  into 
detail — although  I  have  endeavoured  to 
confine  myself  to  those  Resolutions  which 
appeared  to  me  to  involve  large  princi- 
ples; but  there  is  another  point  on  which 
I  think  it  my  duty  to  touch  slightly — a 
point  with  which  it  has  been  found  diffi- 
cult to  deal,  which  is  a  very  important 
element  in  the  settlement  of  this  question 
of  Eeform,  and  upon  which  I  venture  to 
say  a  greater  amount  of  misapprehension 
exists  than  almost  upon  any  other — I  allude 
to  the  subject  of  boundaries. 

Now,  I  have,  on  more  than  one  occasion^ 
not  completely,  but  casually,  expressed  the 
views  which  I  entertain  upon  this  subject. 
It  is  really  a  vital  subject,  and  one,  it  ap- 
pears to  me,  on  which  no  dissension  ought 
to  prevail,  for  if  clearly  understood  there 
would  be,  I  imagine,  scarcely  any  room  for 
a  difference  of  opinion  in  regard  to  it.  Un- 
fortunately, however,  it  is  not  clearly  un- 
derstood, and  it  has  had  raised  in  connection 
with  it  objections  which  have  had  a  very 
considerable  effect  on  the  House,  although 
they  are  objections  based  upon  false  data, 
and  supported  by  false  reasoning.  If  I 
a^ain  remind  hon.  Members  of  the  salient 
facts  of  the  case,  it  is  because  I  am  anxioas 
to  place  a  distinct  picture  before  their 
minds.  The  amount  of  the  population 
dwelling  in  counties  is  11,500,000,  and 
that  population  is  represented  in  the 
House  of  Commons  by  162  Members. 
9,500,000  is  the  extent  of  the  popula- 
tion living  in  boroughs,  and  the  number 
of  Members  representing  it  within  these 
walls  is  334.  Now,  one  would  naturally 
say,  at  the  first  glance,  that  there  is  nothing 
unreasonable  in  the  11,500,000  asking  the 
House  of  Commons  that,  as  they  have  but 
a  very  small  share  of  the  representation, 
the  enjoyment  of  their  rights  should  at  least 
not  be  interfered  with  by  the  9,500,000  in 

SS7       JbprmnUifon  qf  [Fsbzvaxx  li»  1867] 



boroughs.  Hon.  Members  must,  it  seems 
to  me,  feel  the  justice  of  that  appeal.  We 
know  that  since  1882  the  population  of 
boroughs  has  greatlj  increased,  and  that 
they  have  passed  the  borough  boundaries 
to  the  extent  of  millions.  The  population 
of  the  counties  has  also  considerably  in- 
creased ;  but  they  are  on  that  account  all 
the  more  anxious  for  the  due  enjoyment 
of  their  privileges.  The  population  of 
towns,  however,  has,  I  repeat,  passed  their 
boundaries  in  millions,  and  if  you  greatly 
reduce,  as  we  propose  to  do,  the  franchise 
in  counties,  a  large  proportion  of  the  popu- 
lation of  boroughs  will  become  county 
electors.  Well,  the  11,500,000  with  162 
Members  look  on  that  as  rather  hard,  for 
they  naturally  think  that  the  surplus  popu- 
lation of  the  boroughs  ought  to  be  con- 
tented with  their  334  Members.  This  is 
not  an  idle  apprehension  or  unfounded 
complaint  on  their  side.  If  you  reduce 
to-morrow,  as  you  will  do  if  you  follow 
our  advice,  the  county  franchise,  you  will 
have  half  the  town  of  Halifax — 1  give 
this  as  a  mere  illustration — ^nl>t  more  dis- 
tinct from  the  other  half  than  the  City  of 
Westminster  is  from  the  City  of  London 
— supplyiog  a  large  body  of  electors  to 
the  county  of  Yorkshire.  Why  should  not 
that  body  of  men  vote  for  a  candidate  with 
whom  all  their  sympathies,  local  and 
municipal,  are  bound  up?  And  are  the 
11,500,000,  with  only  162  Members,  to 
be  visited  by  an  invasion  that  wUl  still 
further  materially  diminish  their  privilege 
in  sending  men  representing  their  views 
to  Parliament  ?  In  my  opinion,  the  ques- 
tion is  one  about  which  there  ought  to  be 
no  controversy ;  but  there  is,  nevertheless, 
with  respect  to  it  a  great  controversy,  a 
bitter  controversy,  which,  like  all  great 
and  bitter  controTersies,  arises  from  an 
ignorance  of  the  subject  to  which  the 
argument  relates.  It  is  contended  that  no 
revision  of  the  boundaries  between  bo- 
roughs and  counties  must  be  attempted, 
because  it  would  be  difficult  rigidly  and 
severely  to  distinguish  one  class  of  popu- 
lation from  the  other.  Now,  to  do  tiiiis 
is  not  only  difficult,  it  is  impossible. 
Ko  one  ever  contemplated  such  a  di- 
vision* Those  populations  must  to  a  cer- 
tain degree  blend,  and  it  is  desirable 
they  should  blend.  But  cases  of  great 
injustice  like  that  I*  have  mentioned—- 
and  there  are  twenty  such  cases  which 
I  could  name— should  not,  therefore,  be 
allowed  to  pass  without  a  remedy,  and  the 
remedy,  I  maintain,  can  be  rendered  per- 

fectly consistent  with  that  natural  blend- 
ing to  which  I  just  now  referred.  The 
great  objection,  however,  which  is  urged 
against  a  revision  of  boundaries — and  I  put 
it,  I  hope,  fairly  in  its  naked  form,  for  I 
have  no  wish  to  cast  a  veil  over  it — is  that 
it  is  a  plan  which,  if  adopted  with  other 
schemes  of  an  analagous  though  not  so  im- 
portant a  character,  such  as  giving  repre- 
sentatives to  some  boroughs,  would  throw 
the  162  county  Members  entirely  into  the 
hands  of  the  landlords,  their  tenants,  and  la- 
bourers. ["Hear,  hear!"]  Well,  you  accept 
that  proposition  ?  I  am  sorry  for  you,  for 
it  is  a  totally  erroneous  proposition.  This 
is  a  case  of  great  importance,  and  I  do  not 
think  that  any  part  of  a  future  Eefbrm 
Bill  can  be  really  more  important,  or  more 
to  the  interest  of  both  parties  clearly  to 
understand.  In  the  11,500,000  of  popu- 
lation to  which  I  have  referred,  there  will, 
no  doubt,  be  a  considerable  diminution,  if 
our  propositions  are  adopted.  We  shall 
propose  to  enfranchise  boroughs  which 
may  diminish  that  amount  by  hundreds  of 
thousands.  'Jdiere  would  then  still  remain 
in  England  a  vast  number  of  towns  which 
by  no  wise  scheme  of  Parliamentary  re- 
presentation can  be  or  ought  to  be  enfran- 
chised. I  giye  you  the  advantages  of  all 
their  population,  and  still  there  remaid  in 
England,  as  appears  by  the  evidence  on 
the  table,  what  is  termed,  in  the  technical 
language  of  statistics,  a  scattered  or  village 
population  which  does  not  live  in  towns, 
even  of  towns  of  1,500  population,  and 
which  amounts  to  upwards  of  9,000,000, 
being  equal  to  the  amount  of  the  popula- 
tion of  all  the  represented  boroughs  of 
England.  But  you  say  that  this  is  only 
composed  of  landlords,  farmers,  and  la- 
bourers, and  why  care  for  them  ?  The 
landlords,  farmers,  and  labourers  are  regis- 
tered in  the  Census,  and  still  form  alone 
the  most  important  class  in  England  from 
their  property  and  numbers  combined. 
That  class  comprises  2,000,000  of  the 
population,  and  if  you  take  away  all  the 
landlords,  fanners,  and  labourers,  what  is 
your  duty  to  the  7,000,000  of  the  popula- 
tion that  remains  in  the  counties,  and  what 
are  those  7,000,000  of  population  ?  They 
are  the  backbone  of  the  country.  I  say 
that  for  independence,  industry,  for  the 
comparative  simplicity  of  their  lives,  and, 
whatever  mny  be  their  creed,  whether 
Churchman  or  Dissenter,  for  their  deep 
and  sincere  religious  convictions,  there  is 
no  part  of  the  population  more  deserving 
of  esteem.    On  ^is  subject  of  the  popu- 






lation  of  the  oonnties  there  does  exist  in 
this  enlightened  metropolis  a  deg;ree  of 
want  of  information  whioh  is  perfectly  as- 
tonishing. I  do  not  like  to  refer  to  some 
opinions  which  have  heen  lately  cironlated 
hy  one  who  has  always  heen  my  political 
opponent  while  in  this  House,  hut  whom 
I  have  always  respected,  and  more  than 
respected,  who,  I  think,  was  a  great  ho- 
nour to  this  House,  and  whose  memorahle 
achievements  should  never  he  forgotten. 
Still  I  was  astonished  to  learn  from  that 
high  authority  that  the  cause  of  all  the 
discontent  prevailing  in  England  on  the 
suhject  of  the  representation  of  the  peo- 
ple was  the  enfranchisement  of  the  farmers 
of  this  country  some  thirty  or  forty  years 
ago.  I  think  that  I  have  rather  indicated  to- 
night, at  the  heginning  of  my  task,  the 
real  cause  of  the  dissatisfaction  at  the  pre* 
sent  day  with  respect  to  the  Reform  Act 
of  1832.  It  has  not  heen  caused  hy  the 
enfranchisement  of  the  farmers  of  England, 
hut  hy  the  disfranchisement  of  the  work- 
men of  England.  On  the  ^uhjeot  of  the 
two  kinds  of  population  to  which  I  was 
adverting,  the  most  extraordinary  want  of 
information  appears  to  exist.  Look  to 
those  7,000,000  of  your  population  which 
I  just  now  alluded  to.  Who  are  they  ? 
Among  them  are  ancient  freeholders  of 
England,  to  whom  we  are  indebted  for  our 
public  liberties.  Without  referring  to 
historical  recollections,  but  speaking  only 
in  reference  to  the  latest  and  greatest  poli- 
tical measure — the  passing  of  the  Reform 
Act|  which,  when  I  fint  entered  the 
House,  was  never  mentioned  except  with 
enthusiasm,  hut  is  now  only  named  with 
contumely; — I  say,  it  was  the  freeholders 
of  England  in  the  counties  of  England  who 
carried  that  measure.  There  are  among 
those  7,000,000  of  the  population  I  have 
adverted  to,  300,000  and  more  freeholders. 
If  you  look  to  the  amount  of  the  county 
constituency,  and  if  yon  take  away  the 
100,000  of  occupying  tenants,  as  well  as 
all  those  freeholders  who  vote  for  the 
counties  in  respect  of  freeholds  in  boroughs, 
you  will  find  that  you  take  away  two-fifths 
of  the  county  electoral  body,  and  you  leave 
more  than  300,000  freeholders,  who, 
among  the  7,000,000  of  population  I  have 
mentioned,  seem  utterly  unknown  by  this 
House,  and  not  only  by  this  House,  but 
by  men  occupying  the  highest  position  in 
the  State.  When  I  ask  justice  for  those 
freeholdem  I  am  told  in  return  I  want  to 
eliminate  all  the  independence  and  all  the 
intelligence  of  the  oonnties.  I  have  nerer 
2^  Chancellor  of  the  Exchequer 

reoommended  any  violent  destmotion  of 
the  existing  electoral  scheme  in  ord«r  that 
adequate  representation  might  be  given  to 
those  men,  because  I  felt  the  disturbance 
would  do  them  Ux  more  harm  than  good  ; 
but  if  there  are  to  be  only  162  oounty  re- 
presentatives in  this  country,  merely  gra- 
dually increasing  in  number  when  oppoT^ 
tunities  may  occur — ^if  that  is  to  be  the 
principle  of  your  system,  then  yon  are 
bound  to  let  this  part  of  the  population 
enjoy  the  rights  which  the  GonsUtutioa 
intended,  and  to  provide  that  the  oonnty 
Members  should  be  elected  by  the  county 
population  and  not  by  the  borough  popola- 
tion,  which  also  has  the  power  to  elect 
Members  to  this  House.  Under  these  cir- 
cumstances, the  Government  have  prepared 
a  Resolution  which  wiU  propose  a  course 
calculated,  we  hope,  to  do  justice  on  thia 
long- vexed  question,  as,  when  calmly  con- 
sidered, it  will  be  acknowledged  to  be 
founded  on  principles  of  truth  and  equity. 
I  hope  no  opposition  will  be  offered  to  the 
course  we  propose,  and  that  we  at  last 
shall  reconcile  this  great  portion  of  the 
people  to  our  new  arrangements  by  making 
them  feel  that  they  are  no  longer  debarred 
from  the  enjoyment  of  the  privileges  which 
the  Constitution  meant  to  give  them. 
Why,  the  other  day  a  rampant  orator,  who 
goes  about  the  country  maligning  men  and 
things,  attacked  the  House  of  Commoua 
under  the  thin  veil  of  a  lecture  on  the 
reign  of  Charles  I.,  and  after  alluding  to 
two  illustrious  men  who  then  existed, 
went  out  of  his  way  to  assail  me,  saying, 
**  Where  now  are  the  4,000  freeholders  of 
Buckinghamshire  ?  "  Why,  Sir,  they  are 
where  you  would  natundly  expect  to 
find  them.  They  are  in  the  county  of 
Buckingham.  I  can  pardon  this  wild 
man,  who  has  no  experience  of  life, 
having  probably  always  UTod  in  the  clois- 
ters of  some  college,  making  these  mis- 
takes; but  I  cannot  pardon  grave  and  emi- 
nent statesmen  falling  into  the  error  of 
describing  the  tenant  farmers  as  the  pre- 
ponderatmg  portion  of  the  county  consti* 
tuencies.  There  is  no  subject  on  which 
so  much  exaggeration  exists  as  on  the 
subject  of  occupying  tenants  in  counties. 
They  never  at  any  time  exceeded  one-fifth 
of  the  constituency,  and  that  number  is 
divided  between  the  two  great  parties  in 
the  State.  How,  therefore,  is  it  possible 
that  they  can  exercise  the  influence  which 
is  alleged }  In  my  own  county,  where, 
according  to  the  lecturer,  there  are  nothing 
but  tenant  farmers^  there  happens  to  be, 

941        Sspr&Bmidiion  of  [VesxaJiRr  11,  1967) 

ih$  People* 


in  a  constituenoy  of  6,000,  onlj  1|200 ' 
reg:i8tered  ooonpjing  tenanto.    But  you 
will  not  do  justice  to  the  county  consti- 
tuency, because  you  haye  been  induced  to 
belieye  extravagant  representations. 

I  have  thus,  Sir,  endeavoured  as  far  as  I 
could  to  place  before  the  House  the  course  | 
which  Her  Majesty's  Government  propose 
to  take  upon  this  great  question,  which 
has  been  so  long  discussed,  and  the  discus- 
sion upon  which  they  feel  it  so  necessary 
to  bring  to  a  conclusion-— I  hope,  a  satis- 
factory one.  I  have  stated  not  only  the 
course  which  Her  Majesty's  Government 
propose  to  the  House,  and  which  tbey 
earnestly  hope  the  House  will  adopt,  but 
I  have  abo  endeavoured  to  convey  to  them 
so  far  as  I  could,  without  reserve,  the 
spirit  in  which  these  Besolutions  are 
framed.  I  say  **  without  reserve,"  because 
I  could  have  signified  our  policy  and  waited 
for  discussions  upon  the  matter;  but  I 
thought  it  would  rather  facilitate  our  pro- 
ceedings if  I  did  without  reserve  impress 
on  the  House  the  general  principles  on 
which  we  wish  to  act,  and  the  spirit  in 
which  we  do  act.  Do  not  let  the  House 
suppose  that  we  are  asking  them  to  go 
into  Committee  and  allow  us  to  propose 
Besolutions  because  we  are  angling  for  a 
policy.  We  are  not  angling  for  a  policv. 
We  have  distinct  principles  which  will 
guide  us,  and  which  we  wish  the  House 
to  sanction.  But  there  are  several  subjects 
besides  those  which  I  have  indicated,  if 
not  of  equal  still  of  very  great  importance 
in  the  happy  settlement  of  this  question, 
upon  which  it  would  be  desirable  that  the 
opinion  of  the  House  should  be  given; 
and  on  these  subjects  we  should  defer  to 
the  opinion  of  the  House.  If  we  go  into 
this  Committee  to  move  Besolutions,  in 
the  application  of  those  principles  we  should 
consult  in  every  way  the  sense  and  accept 
the  suggestions  of  the  House.  And 
although  we  are  not  prepared  in  any  way 
to  shrink  from  the  leading  principles  of 
the  policy  that  we  hope  may  be  sanctioned, 
we  still  believe  that  on  a  question  of  this 
paramount  importanoe,  if  the  House  deigns 
to  co-operate  with  us  and  come  into 
council  with  us,  many  suggestions  of  great 
value  win  be  made  which  may  add  to  the 
fulness  and  completion  of  the  consumma- 
tion. I  can  only  say  on  the  part  of  my 
Colleagues  that  Uiose  suggestions  will  be 
received  not  merely  with  candour,  but,  if 
found  to  deserve  the  acceptance  of  the 
House  and  appear  for  the  public  advantage, 
they  will  be  accepted  with  gratitude.   We 

shall  enter  into  the  Committee  and  avail 
ourselves  of  all  that  the  learning,  the  genius, 
the  experience  of  the  House  can  suggest 
for  the  solution  of  this  question ;  and  to  all 
we  shall  give  a  cordisd  and  a  candid  de< 
ferenoe.  The  course  we  adopt  is  not  one 
flattering  to  ourselves  [Ironioal  ehoors] ; 
but  it  is  more  flattering  to  assist,  however 
humbly,  in  effecting  that  which  he  thinks 
is  for  the  public  good  than  to  bring  for- 
ward mock  measures  which  he  knows  the 
spirit  of  party  will  not  pass.  And  let  me 
tell  the  Member  for  Birmingham,  who 
gave  me  that  ironical  cheer,  that  there  are 
others  besides  himself  who  think  that  it  is 
desirable  that  this  question  should  be  set- 
tled, but  who  wish  it  to  be  settled  in  the 
spirit  of  the  English  Constitution.  Of 
course,  it  would  be  yery  agreeable  to  us  to 
bring  forward  at  once  a  complete  measure, 
backed  by  a  confiding  majority,  and  hav- 
ing the  assurance  of  settling  a  question 
which  engages  the  attention  of  a  great 
nation.  None  of  my  Colleagues  pretend 
to  be  superior  to 

'*  The  last  inflrmitjr  of  noble  mindi." 

But,  Sir,  this  is  not  a  time  in  which  we 
are  to  conaidor  the  complacency  of  Minis- 
ters, or  even  the'  pride  of  parties.  I 
earnestly  hope  that  the  House  of  Commons 
will  rise  to  this  occasion.  I  earnestly 
hope  that  the  House  of  Commons,  in 
unison  with  that  gracious  Speech  which 
Her  Majesty  delivered  to  her  Parliament, 
authorized  by  antecedent  circumstances, 
and  urged  by  the  necessity  of  the  case, 
will  divest  itself  of  party  feeUng,  and 
give  her  Ministers  on  this,  if  on  no  other 
occasion,  the  advantage  of  their  co-opera- 
tion and  their  cordial  support. 

Sir,  some  sharp  things  have  been  said 
about  the  House  of  Commons  since  we 
parted  in  the  summer — some  sharp  things, 
not  with  reference  merely- to  its  present 
character,  but  to  its  past  conduct,  which  I 
thought  had  been  accepted,  sanctioned,  and 
embidmed  by  history.  I  do  not  doubt 
that  this  human  institution  is  not  free  from 
the  imperfections  of  humanity.  It  is 
possible  that  there  may  have  been  periods 
when  the  integrity  even  of  the  House  of 
Commons  might  successfully  have  been 
impugned.  I  know  well — we  all  know 
that  there  have  been  times  when  its  con- 
duct has  been  unjust,  violent,  even  ty- 
rannical. If  you  search  our  records, 
unquestionably  you  will  find  conclusions 
on  many  subjects  that  are  at  variance 
with  those  doctrines  which  are  the  hap- 
pier appanage  of  our  more  enlightened 






times.  Boty  Bur»  fhere  is  no  greater  entnr 
than  to  jndge  the  morale  of  one  age  by 
the  manners  of  a  Buheeqnent  one.  Th^ie 
is  no  greater  error  than  to  deoide  upon 
the  passions  of  perilons  times  with  the 
philosophic  calmness  of  assured  security. 
There  is  no  greater  error  than  to  gauge 
the  intellect  of  the  past  by  its  deficiencies, 
and  not  by  the  accumulated  wisdom  which 
it  has  achieved,  and  which  has  become 
our  beneficent  inheritance.  Those  who 
take  a  larger  and  a  nobler  Tiew  of  human 
affairs  will,  I  think,  recognise  that,  alone 
in  the  countries  of  Europe,  England  now 
for  almost  countless  generations  has  by  her 
Parliament  exhibited  the  foir  exemplar 
of  free  goyernment ;  and  that  throughout 
the  awful  vicissitudes  of  her  heroic  his- 
tory she  has,  chiefly  by  this  House  of 
Commons,  maintained  and  cherished  that 
public  spirit  which  is  the  soul  of  Com- 
monwealths, without  which  Empire  has 
no  glory,  and  the  wealth  of  nations  is  but 
the  means  of  corruption  and  decay.  Sir, 
I  move  that  on  the  25th  of  February  this 
House  will  resolve  itself  into  a  Committee 
of  the  Whole  House  to  take  into  conside- 
ration the  2  &  3  WM.  17.  c.  45. 

Mb.  GLADSTONE  said :  Without.  Sir, 
in  any  manner  derogating  from  the  abiUty 
of  the  speech  which  Hie  right  hon.  Gen- 
tleman has  just  delivered,  I  venture  to 
observe — and  I  think  many  will  concur  in 
the  observation — it  is  one  which  does  not 
of  itself  necessarily  carry  censure— that 
the  House  is  placed  in  a  somewhat  peculiar 
position.  We  are  to  approach  the  discus- 
sion of  a  subject  of  unparalleled  difficulty, 
and  one  which  has  undoubtedly  been  em- 
bittered in  other  times  by  proceedings 
which,  whether  justified  by  the  spirit  of 
party  and  the  ordinary  usages  of  Parlia- 
ment or  not,  yet  certainly  has  been  in  a 
high  degree  obstructive  of  public  progress 
-—we  are  to  approach  the  discussion  of 
this  question  now  on  the  invitation  of  the 
right  hon.  Gentleman  in  a  manner,  I  think, 
altogether  novel.  I  am  not  about  to  dis- 
cuss at  length  the  propositions  of  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman,  which  will  be  best  con- 
sidered when  we  hold  them,  in  their  ex- 
press terms,  in  our  hands ;  still  less  am  I 
about  to  offer  to  the  House,  as  I  hope,  any 
one  remark  which  may  diminish  &e  ex- 
pectations or  the  hopes  that  any  one  of  us 
may  entertain  of  making  the  propositions 
of  the  right  hon.  Gentieman  and  of  the 
Government  the  basis  of  a  settlement  of 
the  <^oestion.  But  there  were  remarks 
contained  in  the  speech  of  the  right  hon. 

The  Chancellor  of  the  JExehejuer 

Oenileman  which  I  do  not  feel  able  to  pass 
by  altogether  in  silence,     ^e  right  hon. 
Gentleman,  in  the  early  patt  of  his  speech, 
laid  much  stress  upon  cerijain  terms  con- 
tained in  Her  Migesty's  Speech — teons^  I 
think,  not  very  commonly  fotind  in  Speeches 
fix>m  the  Throne — ^instructing  this  House 
as  to  the  temper  in  which  it  was  to  deal 
with  this  subject;  .and  the  signification 
which  the  right  hon.  Qentleiiian,  no  doubt 
with  great  authority,  attaches  to  those* 
words  is  this,  that  tiae  aobject  of  Parlia- 
mentary Eeform  is  no  longer  to  be  a 
question  whereon  the  fate  of  a  Ministry  is 
to  depend.    Kow,  Sir,  there  is  no  more 
grave  and  difficult  question  that  can  arise 
for  the  consideration  of   the  responsible 
Ministers  of  the  Crown  than  to  determine 
what  are  and  what  are  not  the  occasions 
upon  which  the  failure  and  rejection  of 
their  propositions  constitute  a  sufficient 
cause  for  the  resignation  of  their  offices. 
If  that  general  proposition  be  sustained, 
as  I  think  it  is  both  by  opinion  and  by 
experience,  there  immediately  follows  from 
it  this  consequence — ^that  the  Executive 
Government  ought  on  every  occasion  to 
retain  in  its  own  hands  an  unimpeded 
and  unfettered  power  of  considering  that 
most  difficult  question  with  reference  to  its 
own  dignity  and  honour,  and  to  the  in- 
terests of  the  country  according  to  the 
circumstances  that  may  arise.     Those  cir- 
cumstances, Sir,  it  b  im^ssible  to  define 
and  to  forecast    in    anticipation  of  the 
events ;  and  I  own  to  entertaining  a  doubt 
whether  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  has  so 
far  conduced  to  the  easier  or  more  satis- 
factory prospect  of  settling'  this  question 
by  the  annoimcoment  beforehand  of  some- 
thing like  an  abstract  and  binding  proposi- 
tion to  the  effect  that  it  is  to  be  one  which 
is  not  to  involve  the  fate  of  the  Govern- 
ment.    That,  howcTcr,  is  a  matter  more, 
perhaps,  for  the  consideration  of  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman  and  his  Colleagues  than 
for  those  who  are  less  connected  with 
them ;  but  the  principle  announced  by  the 
right  hon.  Gentleman  is  one  of  such  im- 
portance, and  I  confess  that  in  my  own 
mind  it  is  one  open  to  so  much  doubt,  that 
I  could  not  allow  it  to  pass  without  a  re- 
mark against  it.     The  right  hon.  Gentle- 
man then  proceeded  to  give  us  a  lengthened 
historical  disquisition  upon  the  transactions 
that  have  taken  place  in  previous  Sessions, 
and  in  previous  Parliaments,  with  regard 
to  measures  of  Parliamentary  Beform.    I 
wish.  Sir,  to  give  the  right  hon.  QenUe- 
man  the  opportunity  of  oorrectiDg  me  on 

i4S       AprgtmMian  of  (Febettabt  ll,  1667} 

M#  jRwj^b. 


ft  Mare  occasion  if  I  sbonld  nnfertnnately 
ausrepresent  hia  meaning  in  oonseqnence 
of  havii^  been  nnable  sniBeientlj  to  oom- 
prebend  bim.  Bot  I  did  not  clearly  gatber 
from  bis  speech  what  was  tbe  precise  in- 
ference that  be  intended  ns  to  draw  firom 
that  recital.     It  appeared  to  me  tbat  bis 
object  was  to  show  tbat  tbere  was  a  spe- 
dal  responnbility  of^tbis  House,  as  dis* 
tmgnisbed  from  the  Government  which 
odinarily  directs  its  proceedings,  with  re- 
lerenoe   to  the  subject  of  Parliamentary 
Befbrm.     If  tbat  be  all  that  is  intended 
to  be  established  by  that  recital  I  baTC  no 
difficulty,  aa  far  as  I  am  personally  con- 
cerned, in  subscribing  to  the  doctnne  of 
the  light  bon.  Gentleman ;  for  although 
the  opinion,  when   I   expressed  it,  was 
much  objected  to — and  objected  to,  perhaps, 
in  quarters  where  tbere  may  be  more  sym- 
pathy with  it  to-nigbt — I  did  entertain, 
and  strongly  entertain,  the  opinion  that 
the  House  itself — ^from  tbe  action  on  Ta- 
nous  occasions  of  its  independent  Mem- 
ben —  has  incurred  in  the  eyes  of  the 
country  a  special  responsibility  with  re- 
ference to  tbe  question  of  Reform.    But  I 
understood  tbe  right  hon.  Gentleman  to 
go  beyond  tbe  limits  of  tbat  proposition, 
snd  by  his  announcement  that  he  leaves 
us  to  imply  that,  together  with  the  in- 
crease of  the  responsibility  of  the  House 
of  Commons  there  was  a  diminution  of  tbe 
responsibility  of  the  Government,  and  that 
sn  exceptional  state  of  things  had  arisen 
in  which  it  would  be  expedient  for,  if  not 
imperntiye,   upon  this  House  to  effect  a 
settlement  of  this  diflScult  question  under 
some  guidance  or  leadership  —  the  right 
hon.   Gentleman    does    not  say  in  what 
degree — of  Government,  such  guidance  or 
leadership  to  be  connected  with  a  respon- 
sibility difPerent  in  kind  and  also  in  weight 
from  that  which  usually  attaches  to  the 
Advisers  of  tbe  Crown.     If  that  be  so,  I 
must  confess  that  I  am  doubtful  whether 
the  announcement  of  such  a  view  on  the 
part  of  the  Leader  of  this  House  will  odd 
to  the  weight  or  to  the  authority  with 
which  bis  propositions  should  be  placed 
before  us*  and  which,  attaching  as  it  justly 
does  under  all  circumstances  to  the  pro- 
posals of  the  Executive  in  this  country, 
is  of  itself  one  of  the  great  propelling 
forces  by  which  important  measures  are 
BQCcessfullT  carried  through  this  House. 
The  right  bon.  Gentleman  has  announced, 
with  reference  to  the  subiect  of  Parlia- 
mentary Beform,  bis  intention  of  proceed- 
ing by  Besolution  —  an  intention  with 

which  we  were  already  aeouainted  fhim 
information  that  had  reiobed  us  from  va- 
rious quarters.    I  will  not  enter  into  any 
full  discussion  of  that  method  of  proceed* 
ing,  although  I  frankly  own  my  prepoa* 
sessions  to  bo  against  it    I  think  that 
that  method  of  proceeding  is  justifiabloi 
and  even  necessary,  in  cases  of  a  particular 
description;  in  a  case,  for  example,  where 
it  is  necessary  to  obtain  the  conoatrenoe 
of  both  Houses,  it  is  obvious  that  the 
simultaneous  conounence  of  both  Houses 
could  not  be  had  except  by  adopting  the 
practice  of  proceeding  by  Jftescdution.    I 
will    not,  however,   ask   what   are  the 
precise  limits  to  which  this  method  of 
proceeding  should  be  confined;  but  the 
right  hon.  Gentleman,  baring  dwelt  upon 
the  subject  fully,  has  failed  to  satirfy  my 
mind  that  this  method  of  doing  things 
twice  over  instead  of  once  has  not»  as  a 
general  rule,  some  tendency  to  cause  de- 
lay.   The  right  bon.  Gentleman,  in  fondl- 
ing upon  the  second  and  more  important 
point,  admitted  that  vagueness  was  almost 
inseparable  from  the  nature  of  Besolu- 
tions — that  is  to  say,  tbat  if  Resolutions 
are  to  be  passed  with  greater  facility  than 
would  be  the  case  were  the  same  proposi- 
tions embodied  in  a  Bill,  the  right  bon« 
Gentleman  admits  that  those  Besolutions 
must  necessarily  be  exceedingly  vague  in 
their  nature.  Then,  Sir,  the  right  hon.  Gen- 
tleman has  shadowed  forth  in  bis  speech 
to-night  the  principal  points  which  are  to 
be  included  in  the  Besolutions  that  be  is 
about  to  propose,  and  I  wish  to  state  with  the 
utmost  clearness  what,  as  far  as  my  bumble 
opinion  is  concerned,  should  be  the  course 
6f  the  independent  Members  of  this  House, 
I  have  already  said  that,  under  the  cir- 
cumstances, I  do  not  ask  what  might 
be  asked  on  other  occasions — how  txt  tbe 
Government  which  makes  this  proposal  is 
in  possession  of  the  general  confidence  of 
the  House ;  and  I  now  go  further  and  say 
that  the  objections  I  entertain  to  this 
mode  of  procedure  will  not  stand  in  my 
way— and  should  not,  I  think,  stand  in 
the  way  of  others — ^if,  notwithstanding 
this  mode  of  procedure,  we  can  use  the 
propositions  of  the  right  bon.  Gentleman 
-—either  b^  adopting  them  as  they  stand, 
or  by  altering  them — as  a  means  of  arriv- 
ing at  a  settlement  of  this  question.  Those 
scruples  which  I  felt  with  regard  to  the 
method  of  proceeding  by  way  of  Kesolution 
I  shall  cast  behind  me  if,  upon  examin- 
ing those  Besolutions,  I  find  it  possible 
for  us  to  make  an  onward  movement. 






The  right  hon.  Gentleman  has  told  ns 
something  of  his  propositions,  and  in  refer- 
ence to  them  I  most  observe  that  I  think 
we  are  bound  to  avoid  everything  that  tends 
to  adjourn  the  settlement  of  this  question. 
In  whatever  form  these  Resolutions  are 
laid  before  us  a  long  period  of  time  must 
elapse  before  this  great  and  fundamental 
question  can  be  settled.  I  am  not  alto- 
gether assured,  after  having  heard  the 
remarks  of  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  with 
reference  to  the  rating  franchise,  that  the 
matter  will  be  disposed  of  with  the  requi- 
site speed.  If  I  am  to  interpret  in  the 
ordtnarj  manner  the  terms  of  the  notice 
which  stands  upon  the  notice-books  of  the 
House,  it  is  dear  that  very  important 
changes  in  the  law  of  rating  are  contem- 
plated, changes  such  as  it  is  impossible  for 
this  House  to  adopt  in  a  moment.  Is  it 
meant  that  the  question  of  Parliamentary 
Beform  is  to  depend  upon  the  previous 
attainment  of  what  the  right  hon.  Gentle- 
man may  think  a  perfect  system  of  rating  ? 
I  understand  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  to 
say  that  he  cannot  fix  the  amount  of  the 
reduction  in  the  franchise  in  his  first  Ee- 
soltttion,  because  that  may  depend  upon 
the  points  to  be  disposed  or  by  subsequent 
Eesolutions ;  but  does  not  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  see  that  many  Members  would 
refuse— would  justly  refuse — to  commit 
themselves  to  an  abstract  principle  of  re- 
duction unless  they  knew  what  form  that 
reduction  ^^as  to  take  ?  Again,  if  it  be 
true  that  the  amount  of  this  reduction  is 
to  depend  upon  some  subsequent  Eesolu- 
tion  with  reference  to  an  alteration  to  be 
made  in  the  law  of  rating,  I  hope  I  may 
dismiss  the  apprehension  which  I  confess 
a  part  of  the  speech  of  the  -right  hon. 
Gentleman  raised  in  my  mind,  that  this 
method  of  proceeding  by  way  of  Eesolution 
is  calculated  to  defer  the  definitive  settle- 
ment of  the  question  of  Parliamentary 
Beform.  I  beg  the  right  hon.  Gentleman, 
if  he  thinks  it  worth  his  while,  to  consider 
that  as  an  illustration  of  what  I  mean. 
The  very  same  motives  as  would  lead  me, 
for  one,  with  the  utmost  earnestness  to 
co-operate  with  the  right  hon.  Gentleman, 
and  to  build  on  his  foundations,  if  possible, 
for  a  speedy  settlement  of  the  question, 
would  likewise  lead  me,  I  frankly  own, 
to  offer  a  determined  opposition  to  any 
proposition,  or  any  method  of  proceeding, 
which  would  appear  to  me  to  be  likely  to 
cast  it  into  the  far  future.  We  cannot 
afford  to  go  on  in  this  country  as  we  are 
going*  It  is  time  that  this  discord  between 

Mr.  eiad$t9M 

classes— this  tendency  to  discord— this  in- 
cipient  discord — this  tendency  to  separate 
interests,  from  indications  of  which  I  must 
say  the  speech  of  the  right  hon.  Gendeman* 
in  that  portion  of  it  in  which  he  referred 
to  the  paragraph  in  the  Speech  from  the 
Throne,  was  not  altogether  fr^e — it  is  time 
that  all  this  should  oease ;  and  not  till  this 
question  of  Keform  Jias  disappeared  from 
among  the  subjects  of  controversy  can  we 
hope  to  see  the  people  of  England  what 
they  once  were,  and  what  we  ought  to  be 
desirous  they  should  ever  continue  to  be— 
a  united  people.    The  right  hon.  Gentle- 
man has  told  us  the  day  on  which  ho 
proposes  to  proceed  with  his  Besoiutions. 
I  think  it  better  to  reserve  till  then  any 
opinion  on  the  important  question — pw- 
haps  the  vital  question — whether  his  Re* 
solutions  do  constitute  a  plan  to  which  the 
House  can  assent  if  they  agree,  and  oa 
which  they  can  join  issue,  if  they  do  not 
agree,  with  the  right  hon.  Gentleman. 
No  objection  will  be  taken  otherwise  than 
as  matter  of  argument  and  representatiozi 
with  respect  to  the  mode  of  proceeding. 
I  have  just  intimated  the   direction  in 
which  we  are  disposed  to  look,  and  the 
rule  by  which  our  conduct  will  be  guided« 
Oar  object  being  to  make  progress  in  this 
question-— and  we  think  the  country  has  a 
right  to  expect  that — ^we  will  gladly  assist 
the  right  hon.  Gentleman,  if  he  concurs 
with  us  in  this  view  of  the  matter,  in 
giving  effect  to  his  idea  so  far  as  we  are 
able  consistently  to  do  so.    But  I  am  sure 
the  right  hon.  Gentleman  will  not  expect 
us  to  be  a  party  to  a  course  of  proceeding 
which  would  amount  in  effect  to  an  absolute 
betrayal  of  public  duty^that  is  to  say,  to 
the  adoption  of  his  Eesolutions  if  we  find 
them  to  be  measures — ^not  measures,  but 
declarations  preliminary  to  measures — a 
course  tending  to  produce  doubt  and  un- 
certainty in  the  public  mind — tending  to 
diminish  the  confidence  of  the  people  in 
Parliament — tending  to  adjourn  a  conolu- 
sion  for  which,  on  every  ground,  it  is  de-  ' 
sirable  that  we  should  look  without  delay. 
The  right  hon.  Gentleman  asked  the  ques- 
tion, and  I  think  it  was  a  natural  remark 
to    make — ''Upon    what   principle    the 
House  of   Commons  was  tK>  be  re-con- 
strmcted?"     He  answered  that  it  ought 
to  be  upon  the  principle  of  the  British 
Constitution.    Then,  spreading  his  wings 
for  an  extended  flight^  he  travelled  both 
Eastward  and  Westward,  and  gave  us  an 
account  of  the  Bepresentative  Chambers 
of  various  foreign  countries*     Sir,  I  very 



\TKBXUAXt  11»  1867] 

Prapmiy  Sill.  250 

mneh  doubt  fhe  wisdom  of  those  aelf- 
oomplacent  alliuiona  to  the  institutionB  of 
fdreign  oountiieB.    It  sometimes  happens 
that  our  views  of  them  are  not  altogether 
accurate,  and  at  best  they  oannot  be  ex- 
pected to  carry  on  them  the  stamp  of  im- 
partiality.   Were  this  the  time  and  place, 
I  should  be  disposed  to  challenge  some 
particulars  in  the  statement  of  the  right 
hon.  Gentleman;  but>  even  if  those  state- 
ments were  strictly  accurate,  I  very  much 
doubt  whether  much  is  gained  by  com- 
parisons of  this  description.     The  right 
hon.  Gentleman  must,  however,  see  that 
he  is  engaged  in  a  combat  with  a  phantom; 
for  has  any  Government  in  this  country 
at  any  time  proposed   to  deal  with  the 
question  of  Parliamentary  Eeform  on  any 
other  principles  than  those  of  the  British 
Constitution?     I    assert   that  we   have 
been  ready  at  all  times — and  never  more 
so  than  last  year— to  contend  that  it 
was  upon  those   principles  we  took  our 
stand.     It  is  true  there  may  be  differ- 
ences of  opinion  amongst  us  as  to  various 
points  of  detail ;  but,  however  widely  we 
may  differ  upon  questions  of  general  po- 
licy, I  do  not  believe  that  any  one  Member 
in  this  House  would  be  willing  to  depart 
from  the  principles  of  the  British  Consti- 
tution.   I  frankly  own  it  appears  to  me 
that  in  the  ezpresdon  of  his  opinions  the 
right  hon.  Gentleman  himself  has  some- 
what departed  from  the  principles  of  the 
British  Constitution ;  but  am  I  to  rise  in 
my  place  and  assume  that  I  have  the  ex- 
clusive possession  of  the  key  of  those  prin- 
mples?    Or  am  I  to  charge  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  or  any  other  Member  of  this 
Souse  with  the  abandonment  of  all  regard 
for  them  ?  I  ask  the  right  hon.  Gentleman 
to  enlarge  his  toleration  so  far  as  to  believe 
that  even  those  who  have  differed  from 
him  on  fonner  occasions,  and  who  may 
ultimately  differ  from  him  in  the  later 
development  of  this  question — to  believe 
that  whether  they  differ  from  him  or  not, 
they  are  animated  equally  with  himself 
by  a  regfod  for  that  glorious  Constitution, 
the  rich  traditions  and  noble  inheritance 
which  it  has  left  us,  and  that  whilst  up- 
holding their  rights  of  freedom  they  claim 
for  themselves  and  their  opinions  that  oon- 
siderstion  which  we  gladly  and  freely  ac- 
cord to  others. 

ICbtioii  ^idd  io. 




Mb.  hunt,  in  rising  to  move  for  leave 
to  bring  in  a  Bill  to  provide  for  a  common 
basis  of  value  for  the  purposes  of  Govern- 
ment and  Local  Taxation,  and  to  promote 
uniformity  in  the  assessment  of  Bateable 
Property  in  England,  said,  he  hoped,  not- 
withstanding the  all-absorbing  character 
of  the  sulneot  that  had  just  been  brought 
beore  the  House,  tiiat  they  would  consider 
that  this  was  one  of  considerable  import- 
ance, and  that  they  would  bear  with  him 
whilst  he  explained,  but  not  atgreat  length, 
what  he  considered  the  evils  of  our  present 
system  of  valuation,  and  how  he  proposed 
to  remedy  it.   The  evils  of  the  present 
system  had  long  been  felt.    In  1850  Sir 
George  Lewis  gave  evidence  before  a  Com- 
mittee of  the  House  of  Lords  on  the  sub- 
ject. That  Committee  made  certain  recom- 
mendations, having  reference  not  only  to 
valuations  of  local  rates,  but  they  recom- 
mended, as  a  principle,  that  assessments 
should  be  made  on  one  uniform  and  equal 
relative  valuation.      Li  the  same  year  a 
Bill  was  brought  in  by  Sir  George  Lewis 
and  the  right  hon.  Baronet  the  Member 
for  Morpeth  (Sir  George  Grey),  to  estab- 
lish the  principle  of  universal  valuation 
for  poor  rates  throughout  the    country, 
and  it  had  occurred  to  the  present  Go- 
vernment that   that  principle  might  be 
carried  still  farther,  and  that  the  same 
valuation  might  be  used  both  for  local 
and  Imperial  purposes.     What  the  Go- 
vernment looked  to  was  what  in  refer- 
ence to  the  poor  rates  answered  to  the 
gross  estimated  rental.    The  income  tax, 
with  regard  to  real  property,  was  levied  on 
the  gross  Value,  whilst  the  local  rates  were 
levied  on  the-  rateable  or  net  value  of  the 
property ;  but  notwithstanding  that  differ- 
ence, the  gross  value  was  really  the  basis 
of  value,  because  it  was  from  that  that 
certain  deductions    were  made  and  the 
rateable  value  ascertained  for  local  pur- 
poBOS.    He  would  now  briefly  describe  the 
present  system  of  valuation  both  for  the 
purpose  of  taxation  and  for  the  parpose  of 
rating.    And  first  with  regard  to  taxation, 
in  which  he  was  most  immediatelv  con- 
cerned, and  on  account  of  which  he  had 
been  intrusted  with  the  conduct  of  this 
measure.    The  primary  assessments  were 
made  by  local   assessors,    and  then  the 
Government  officer  and  assessor  of  taxes 
had  the  power  of  reviewing  those  assess- 
ments and  making  surcharges  on  persona 


Valuation  of 


Propwi^  JSiB. 

named  in  the  list.  The  district  Commis- 
Bionen>|  who  were  independent  persons,  had 
to  decide  in  cases  where  the  tiocpayers  did 
not  assent  to  the  surcharges  made  by  the 
surveyor,  and  there  was  no  appeal  from 
those  Gommiseioners,  except  as  far  as  they 
might  state  points  of  law  for  the  decision 
of  the  Superior  Conrts  of  Law  at  West- 
minster. With  regard  to  matters  of  fact, 
there  was  no  appeal  from  their  decision. 
As  regarded  local  taxation,  the  system  was 
as  follows : — ^The  Boards  of  Guardians  an- 
nually appointed  out  of  their  own  body  a 
committee  to  assess,  and  that  committee 
consisted  of  one-third  oi  ex  officio  guardians 
-^namely,  justices  of  the  peace  resident  in 
the  union,  supposing  there  were  any  justi- 
ces resident — and,  if  not,  their  places  were 
supplied  by  the  ordinary  members  of  the 
Board  of  Guardians.  The  lists  were  made 
out  by  the  parish  officers  and  submitted 
to  the  assessment  committee,  who  then 
made  out  the  assessment  upon  these  lists, 
with  any  alterations  which  they  might 
deem  expedient  to  make  after  hearing  the 
objections  of  the  persons  assessed,  or  of 
other  persons  upon  the  same  lists  or  resid- 
ing in  the  same  union.  Supposing  any  dis- 
satisfaction were  felt  at  the  decisions  of  the 
assessment  committee,  there  was  an  ap- 
peal, which  was  final,  to  the  quarter  ses- 
sions. But  that  was  not  the  only  assess- 
ment made  with  regard  to  local  taxation. 
One  would  have  thought  that  a  system 
which  was  good  for  the  purpose  of  the 
poor  rate,  the  highway  rate,  and  church 
rates,  would  likewise  have  been  good  for 
the  county  rate ;  but  it  would  be  found  that 
the  magistrates  at  quarter  sessions  had  the 
power  to  appoint  a  committeefor  the  county 
rating.  They  might  make  a  new  basis, 
and  in  practice  it  was  known  that  they 
did  BO.  He  understood  that  at  the  pre- 
sent moment  the  committees  of  magistrates 
and  quarter  sessions  were  making  a  new 
basis  for  county  rates,  notwithstanding 
that  the  assessment  for  the  poor  rate  had 
only  just  been  completed  in  their  own 
county.  It  was  true  that  the  quarter 
sessions  committee  did  not  go  into  the 
same  particulars  as  the  assessment  commit- 
tees, because  they  only  assessed  parishes, 
whereas  the  assessment  committees  as- 
sessed individual  property;  but  it  often 
happened  that  the  assessment  made  for 
the  county  rate  in  a  parish  was  wholly 
different  m  amount  from  the  poor  rate 
assessment  in  tiie  same  parish.  In  the 
case  of  county  rates  also  there  was  an  ap- 
peal to  the  quarter  sessiona*    Bat   then 

this  extraordinary  state  of  things  aroae. 
A.  man  had  to  watch  the  assessment  on  his 
property  for  property  tax,  for  poor  rates, 
and  for  parish  and  county  rates.  He 
might  appeal  in  one  case  and  his  appeal 
might  be  sustained,  but  that  would  not 
affect  any  other  assessment  to  which  he 
was  assessed.  On  the  contrary,  he  would 
have  to  go  throagh  the  same  process  in 
regard  to  all  the  three  assessments.  All 
the  labour  with  regard  to  one  yalnation 
was  entirely  thrown  away  with  regard  to 
the  others.  He  might  have  gone  moro 
into  detail  in  r^ard  to  this  ma&r,  but  he 
thought  he  had  stated  enough  to  satisfy 
the  House  that  the  existing  system  was 
one  not  creditable  to  the  country.  Then 
the  question  arose  as  to  what  was  to  be 
substituted  for  the  three  systems  without 
parting  with  any  of  the  present  jurisdio* 
tions  of  the  Government,  the  Poor  Law 
officers,  the  Boards  of  Guardians,  or  the 
magistrates.  If  they  were  to  commence 
entirely  afresh,  perhaps  it  would  be  easy 
to  devise  a  simple  scheme  which  might 
serve  for  all  purposes,  but  the  Government 
had  determined  to  make  use  of  the  existing 
machinery.  Before  1862  there  was  much 
more  inequality  in  rating  than  at  present, 
because  ^e  parish  made  out  the  valuation 
lists  and  fixed  upon  the  soale  of  dedue* 
tions,  the  consequence  of  which  was  that 
there  might  be  different  scales  of  deduo- 
tion  in  the  same  union,  lliat  system, 
however,  had  to  a  certain  extent  been 
modified  by  the  union  assessment  com- 
mittees, and  therefore  within  the  union 
itself  there  was  now  a  uniform  scale  of 
deductions.  Still  the  uniformity  did  not 
extend  beyond  the  area  of  the  union.  The 
Bills  to  which  he  had  just  now  alluded 
attempted  to  provide  for  uniformity  as  re-> 
gards  counties,  and  the  Bill  which  he  was  • 
about  to  ask  leave  to  introduce  also  pro- 
vided for  uniformity  as  regards  counties. 
He  proposed  to  take  as  the  basis  of  valua- 
tion the  present  system  of  union  assess- 
ment, and  that  the  assessment  committee 
should  send  representatives  to  a  County 
Valuation  Board,  to  consist  of  the  repre- 
sentatives of  all  the  assessment  commit- 
tees  in  the  county — for  the  most  part 
two  members  from  each  committee^one 
of  such  representatives  to  be  an  at  officii 
member,  and  the  other  an  ordinary  mem- 
ber. It  was  proposed  to  include  in  the 
area  of  the  county  all  the  towns  lying 
within  it,  but  the  towns  were  to  be  re- 
presented on  the  same  principle  at  the 
Yaluation  Board.     If  they  already  had 


TatmiUn  of 

(Febbuabt  11|  1867}  Prcp<frfy  Bill. 


separate  oommittees  tbey  would  send 
members  to  the  Yalnation  Board,  and  if 
thej  had  no  oommittees  they  might  ap- 
point members  to  serve  on  the  Board. 
In  the  event  of  there  being  no  magis- 
trates who  could  serve,  it  was  proposed 
that  the  To¥m  Councils  should  nominate 
members  of  the  Board.  The  functions  of 
the  Yaluation^Board  would  have  reference 
almost  exclusively  to  the  scale  of  deduc- 
tionsy  and  they  would  have  nothing  to  do 
with  the  assessment  of  gross  value  except 
in  certain  cases.  The  Valuation  Board 
would  have  to  lay  down  the  scale  of  de- 
ductions to  be  observed  in  all  the  assess- 
ment committees  throughout  the  country. 
It  was  likewise  proposed  that  the  Valua- 
tion Board  should  perform  the  duties  of 
the  assessment  committees  at  the  expense 
of  those  committees  in  those  cases  where 
tho  assessment  committees  delayed  to  dis- 
charge the  duties  imposed  on  them  by  Act 
of  Parliament  The  eflfeot  of  that  enact- 
ment would,  in  all  probability,  be  that  the 
assessment  committees  would  perform 
their  duties  within  the  proper  time.  With 
regard  to  gross  value,  it  was  proposed  that 
the  overseers  should  make  out  the  valua- 
tion lists,  as  at  present.  But  here  a  new 
element  would  be  introduced  into  the  as- 
sessment system,  for  the  surveyor  of  taxes 
would  have  a  hew  standi  before  the  as- 
sessment committees,  and  the  power  of 
stating  what,  in  his  opinion,  was  the  right 
sum  of  the  gross  value,  and  consequently 
of  throwing  the  anui  prohandi  of  disprov- 
ing his  statement  on  the  taxpayers  and 
ratepayers.  Thus  for  the  first  time  there 
would  be  some  one  present  who  would 
have  an  interest  in  putting  up  the  assess- 
ment to  the  right  point.  That,  he  be- 
lieved»  would  have  the  effect  of  preventing 
*too  low  assessments  being  made.  It  was 
also  proposed  that  when  the  assessments 
had  been  made  by  the  committees  they 
should  be  sent  up  to  the  Valuation  Board, 
who  would  take  care  that  their  instruc- 
tions with  regard  to  the  scale  of  deduc- 
tions had  been  fully  carried  out.  An 
appeal  would  be  allowed  to  an  assessor, 
who  would  be  a  barrister-atlaw,  and  who 
would  be  appointed  by  the  Valuation 
Board,  with  the  consent  of  the  Treasury. 
The  quarter  sessions  would  thereby  be 
discharged  of  their  present  appellate  ninc- 
tion,  and  a  system,  something  like  that 
now  existing  in  Ireland,  would  be  adopted. 
On  the  applioation  of  the  parties  the  aa- 
aesBCHr  would  be  empowered  to  order  a 
sonrej  and  valuation  of  any  property  in 

respect  to  which  a  dispute  had  arisen.  A 
union  might  appeal  against  the  assessment 
of  another  union,  and  a  parish  against  the 
assessment  of  another  parish.  The  assessor 
being  appointed  by  the  Valuation  Board 
subject  to  the  control  of  the  Treasury,  the 
Imperial  interests  would  be  properly  gua- 
ranteed, and,  at  the  same  time,  he  would 
be  appointed  by  persons  chosen  by  the 
ratepayers.  These  were  the  main  features 
of  the  measure  which  he  asked  for  leave 
to  introduce.  It  was  not  proposed  to  make 
any  change  in  the  incidence  of  taxation, 
which,  as  now,  would  be  based  on  gross 
and  rateable  veJues,  and  it  was  only  in  the 
mode  of  ascertaining  the  value  and  assess- 
ment that  alteration  was  proposed.  Al- 
though quarter  sessions  would  be  relieved 
of  their  functions,  the  present  magisterial 
element  would  not  be  dispensed  with  ;  for 
about  one-half  the  members  of  the  pro- 
posed Boards  would  be  justices  and  mem- 
bers of  quarter  sessions;  and  with  the 
exception  of  the  quarter  sessions  and  dis- 
trict Commissioners,  it  was  proposed  to 
retain  existing  jurisdictions.  In  Ireland 
valuations  were  made  by  a  Government 
officer  for  all  purposes.  There  was  only 
one  column  and  that  was  for  the  net  value, 
which  almost  corresponded  with  our  rate- 
able value,  and  there  was  a  Court  of  Ap- 
peal similar  to  that  proposed  for  England. 
The  Scotch  system,  less  perfect  than  the 
Irish  one,  was  vastly  superior  to  that  of 
England.  Commissioners  of  Supply  there 
made  out  valuation  lists,  or  employed  per- 
sons to  do  so ;  and  if  they  employed  a 
Government  officer,  the  valuation  served 
for  Imperial  and  local  purposes.  This 
system  was  far  preferable  to  the  three 
systems  employed  here.  It  was  proposed 
that  the  metropolis,  owing  to  its  special 
circumstances,  should  be  exempt  from  this 
Bill ;  but  if  its  principles  were  agreed  to, 
they  might  in  a  future  Bill  be  applied  to 
the  metropolis.  The  valuation  under  the 
proposed  Bill  would  extend  to  Imperial 
and  local  taxation.  It  would  also  affect 
the  composition  of  jury  lists,  election  of 
guardians,  licensing,  and  manv  other  mat- 
ters, which  would  make  the  Bill  lengthy 
and  complicated,  but  he  hoped  that  it 
would  be  laid  on  the  table  in  about  a 
week,  and  read  a  second  time  in  abou.t 
three  weeks.  The  right  hon.  Gentleman 
concluded  by  moving  for  leave  to  bring  in 
the  Bill. 

Mr.  CHILDEBS  said,  the  Bill  neces- 
sarily involved  so  many  details  that  it 
must  be  in  their  hands  before  they  could 




Seleei  CommUies. 


express  their  opinions  npoa  its  proposals. 
He  was  glad  that  it  was  introdoced,  al- 
though he  looked  with  jealousy  upon  the 
appointment  of  a  lai^ge  number  of  appel- 
late  hainsters 

Mb.  BAXTER  said,  that  the  admirable 
working  of  the  Scotch  system  during  the 
last  thirteen  years  bad  filled  Scotch  Mem- 
bers with  amazement  at  the  continuance 
of  the  English  system.  The  assessment 
in  Scotland  was  not  perfect,  and  it  was 
intended  to  ask  for  amendments  this  Ses- 
sioir ;  but  the  system  worked  admirably 
for  taxation  and  registration. 

Mr.  POULETT  SCROPE  said,  the  ad- 
vantage  of  an  uniform  system  of  valuation 
was  unquestionable ;  and,  therefore,  such 
a  system  ought  to  be  adopted.  Such  a 
measure  failed  preyiously  in  the  House  of 
Gommona  from  the  con^ct  of  interests  in 
regard  to  the  matter,  when  public  opinion 
was  not  so  ripe  for  Reform  as  now.  He 
regretted  that  the  Bill  did  not  establish  a 
universal  system  of  rating. 

Mk.  AYRTON  said,  he  was  glad  the 
metropolis  was  to  be  excluded  from  the 
Bill,  not  because  he  objected  to  the  prin* 
ciple,  but  because  its  circumstances  were 
diflferent  from  those  of  the  rest  of  the 
country,  and  the  Bill  would  not  have 
workea  in  London  in  the  manner  proposed 
for  the  counties.  He  hoped  in  any  Bill 
for  the  metropolis  the  authorities  would 
have  full  power  to  make  investigations  as 
to  the  real  value  of  each  individual  pro- 
perty. He  thought  there  was  some  ob- 
scurity as  to  the  manner  of  descending 
from  a  whole  parish  to  separate  holdings. 

Mb.  hunt  said,  he  thought  he  had 
explained  that  the  assessment  committees 
would  go  into  the  case  of  every  holding. 
There  need  be  no  apprehension  as  to  the 
number  of  barristers  to  be  employed ;  it 
was  not  proposed  to  employ  standing  asses- 
sors, at  £xea  salaries,  but  to  appoint  them 
from  time  to  time  at  such  remuneration  as 
might  be  determined  upon ;  and  if  the 
scheme  were  successful,  there  would  hardly 
ever  be  an  appeal. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

Bill  to  provide  ibr  a  Common  basis  of  vslao  for 
the  purposes  of  Govemment  and  Local  Taxation, 
and  to  promote  unirormity  io  the  assessment  of 
Rateable  Property  in  England,  ordered  to  be 
brooffht  in  by  Mr.  HniiT,  Mr.  Seeretarj  Waupou, 
and  Mr.  Gathobhi  Habdt. 

.  ^mfretenUd,  and  read  the  first  Ume.  [Bill  li.] 

jVr«  Child^i 


On  Motion  for  the  appointment  of  the 
Sessional  Printing  Committee, 

Mr.  CHILDERS  said,  he  took  the  op- 
portunity to  oflFer  the  suggestion,  which  it 
would  hardly  be  proper  to  make  to  the 
Committee  unless  it  had  been  previoufily 
made  to  the  House,  that — as  in  some  fo- 
reign Legislatures — ^the  cost  of  printings 
each  Beturn  should  be  printed  on  the 
face  of  it,  not  so  much  to  deter  hon. 
Members  from  calling  for  Eetums  as  to 
show  them  at  what  cost  they  were  pro- 
duced, and  to  lead  them  to  inquire  whe- 
ther the  information  desired  was  not 
otherwise  accessible.  Hon.  Members  were 
hardly  aware  of  the  great  cost  of  printing, 
and  tiiat  a  large  amount  of  that  cost  was 
incurred  unnecessarily. 

Mr.  hunt  said,  that  the  question  of 
the  cost  of  printing  Betums  had  already 
occupied  the  consideration  of  the  Oovcm- 
ment.  No  doubt  it  was  quite  possible 
to  ascertain  the  cost  of  printing  these 
Returns.  The  difficulty  was  to  ascertain 
the  cost  of  compiling  them.  If  the  House 
would  require  that  whenever  a  Member 
was  anxious  to  have  a  Return,  or  copies 
of  Correspondence,  he  should  give  notice 
of  the  object  he  had  in  view  and  the 
points  he  wished  to  bring  out,  means 
might  possibly  be  found  to  give  him  the 
information  he  wanted  within  shorter  com- 
pass and  in  a  more  convenient  form  than 
at  present.  It  frequenUy  happened  that 
Members  moved  for  most  elaborate  statis- 
tical Returns,  and  it  was  afterwards  found 
that  the  greatier  part  of  the  information 
already  existed  in  the  Library,  in  Returns 
already  laid  before  the  House.  If  the 
suggestion  now  made  were  adopted,  his 
notion  was  that  they  might  dispense  with, 
three-fourths  of  the  papers  which  no\r 
overburdened  their  shelves,  and  which. 
Members  hardly  knew  how  to  get  rid  of 
at  the  end  of  a  Session.  The  suggestion 
of  his  hon.  Friend  should  not  be  lost 
sight  of. 

Select  Committoe  appait^d  and  nominaied^ 
"  to  assist  Mr.  Speaker  in  all  matters  which  re- 
late to  the  Printing  exeonted  bjr  Order  of  this 
House,  and  for  the  pnrpoee  of  seleoting  and  ar- 
ranging for  Printing,  Returns  and  Papers  pre- 
sented in  pursuance  of  Motions  made  by  Homben 
of  this  House :" — Mr.  Bonbam-Cabtxr,  Sir  Jonir 
PAKiiroTON,  Mr.  Secretary  Walpolx,  Mr.  Hbrlxt, 
Mr.  Cabswill,  Mr.  Gasssll,  Sir  Stappokd  North- 
oon,  The  O'Coxoa  Dov,  Mr.  Hastims  RubbbUp 
Mr.  ChildbbSi  and  Mr.  Hon  :— Three  to  bs  ihe 


The  lard 


(F£Bbitabt12»  1867) 



Sdeet  Committee  appointed  and  nominated: — 
Mr.CBABUie  Fosstbr,  Mr.  Bohhaic-Cabtsb,  Major 
Gayix,  Sir  CoLMAN  O'LooHLKN,  Mr.  HiaTiKos 
RusaazXy  Mr.  Alderman  Salomons,  Mr.  Owin 
Stahlst,  Mr.  Kinvaird,  Mr.  Reoiitald  Yoskr, 
Mr.  RoBUT  T0BBBN8,  Mr.  M'Laoah,  Mr.  Sard- 
roBD,  Sir  Ohablbs  Rusbbll,  Mr.  Da  Gbbt,  and 
Mr.  Hbitrt  EnwABD  Subtbbs  :— Throe  to  be  the 

House  adjourned  at  a  quarter 
after  Eight  o'olook. 

Tueiday^  February  12,  1867. 

MINUTES.]— PuBUO  BiuM—Fint  Reading-^ 
British  North  Ameriea*  (9) ;  Sale  of  Land  by 
Auotion»(10).  - 

Second  Reading — TrafiSo  Regulation  (Metro- 
polis) (5)  and  referred  to  a  Seleot  Committee, 


Eabl  BUSSELL,  XxipreHniing  a  Peti- 
tion compUining  of  the  Conduct  in  1835 
of  the  Lord  Chief  Baron,  then  Mr.  Kelly, 
and  praying  for  Inqairy  ;  of  Bigby  Waion, 
of  Corwar,  in  the  County  of  Ayr,  EBquire, 
said  :  My  Lords,  I  have  a  Petition  to  pre- 
lent  upon  a  matter  of  coneiderable  im- 
portance.   It  b  from  Mr.  Bigby  Waion 

[*The  report  of  the  debate  on  this 
Petition  has  been  necessarily  restricted  to 
those  parts  of  it  which  relate  immediately 
to  the  allegations  of  the  Petition. 

The  law  of  Parliament  considers  any 
pnbHcation  of  its  proceedings  to  be  breacn 
of  privilege,  and  therefore  gives  no  pro- 
tection to  any  report,  however  faithfhl; 
Lord  Campbell's  Act  does  not  extend  its 
very  limited  protection  to  cases  arising 
from  such  reports ;  and  success  against  pro- 
ceedings in  an  action  at  law  is  only  in 
degree  less  disastrous  than  an  adverse  re- 
sult. Everything,  therefore,  to  which 
exception  might  be  taken  has  been  ex- 
cluded from  the  report. 

In  the  Session  of  1857  Lord  Campbell, 
adverting  to  the  recent  case  of  **  Davidson 
V.  Duncan,"  said— - 

^  When  I  had  the  honour  to  pr6pose  in  this 
House  a  BiU  ivhioh  afterwards  be<»me  law  (6  dk  7 
Viei.  c.  96),  and  which  effected  a  most  material 
improvement  in  the  Law  of  Libel,  I  submitted  a 
clause  Tory  limited  in  its  nature— for  I  was  afraid 

VOL.  CLXXXY.   [thibd  seeies.] 

against  Sir  FitzBoy  Kelly,  and  be  prays 
your  Lordships  to  appoint  a  Committee  to 
inTcstigate  the  charges  made  in  this  Peti- 
tion ;  aud  if  the  Committee  should  find 
these  charges  to  be  proved,  then  he  prays 
that  your  Lordships  will  concur  with  the 
other  House  of  Parliament  in  praying  the 
Crown  to  remove  the  Lord  Chief  Baron 
from  his  high  post.  The  allegation  of  the 
Petition  is  that  in  the  year  1835  Mr« 
Kelly,  being  then  in  practice  at  the  Bar, 
pledged  his  honour  as  a  gentleman  to  the 
truth  of  a  statement  for  the  purpose  of  de- 
ceiving a  Committee  of  the  House  of 
Commons.  The  Petition  alleges  that  the 
Committee  was  thereby  deceived,  and, 
being  an  Election  Committee,  reported 
that  Mr.  Kelly,  who  had  been  a  candidate 
for  the  representation  of  the  borough  of 
Ipswich,  had  not  been  guilty  of  bribery,  and 
had  not  committed  any  illegal  practices* 
Mr.  Bigby  Wason,  however,  alleges  that  on 
further  inquiry  the  Committee  came  to  a 
different  opinion,  and  were  convinced  that 
the  statement  made  by  Mr.  Kelly  was  un- 
founded, and  thereupon  unseated  Mr. 
Kelly  on  the  ground  that  he  had  committed 
bribery  by  his  friends  and  agents.  The 
Petitioner  goes  on  to  state  that  in  1845 
Mr.  Kelly  was  appointed  Solicitor  General 
by  the  Government  of  Sir  Bobert  Peel; 
that  Sir  Bobert  Peel  was  in  some  measure 
deceived  as  to  the  facts  relating  to  this 
inquiry  before  the  Election  Committee; 
but.  that  he  (Mr.  Bigby  Wason),  having 

to  go  very  fiur — providing  that  any  bond  fide 
account  of  the  proceedings  of  either  House  o! 
Parliament  should  be  priyileged,  and  not  subjcHst 
to  an  action. .  I  was  unable  to  carry  it;  thei*e 
was  a  majority  against  me,  because  it  was  said, 
not  only  that  the  law  gave  no  such  privilege,  but 
that  it  ought  not  to  be  given." 

In  the  same  year  Lord  Campbell  obtained 
the  appointment  of  a  Select  Committee  on 
the  **  Privilege  of  Beports,"  before  which 
Mr.  Dobie,  the  solicitor  of  The  Timee^ 
Mr.  Baines  of  The  Leeds  Mercury,  Mr. 
Hargrove  of  The  York  Herald,  and  Mr. 
Hansard,  gave  evidence.  The  Committee 
reported  in  favour  of  extending  protection 
to  faithful  reports  of  proceedings  in  Par- 
liament, "the  majority  being  influenced 
by  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Hansard,  and  of 
the  solicitor  to  The  Times  newspaper."  In 
the  following  Session,  Lord  Campbell  in- 
troduced a  Bill  to  give  effect  to  the  Beport 
of  the  Committee.  The  Bill  contained 
the  following  clause : — 

"  No  person  shall  be  liable  to  action,  informa- 




Chief  Jiaron. 


no  personal  enmity  to  Mr.  Kelly,  did  not 
think  it  right  to  go  into  the  case  against 
him.  Mr.  Kelly  was  afterwards  appointed 
to  the  office  of  Attorney  General ;  and 
again  to  the  same  office  under  Lord 
Derby's  6o?emment  in  1852  ;  and  finally 
attained,  under  the  present  Govern ment, 
the  office  which  he  now  fills.  The  Peti- 
tion concludes  with  the  prayer  which  I  have 
already  detailed.  My  Lords,  I  have  felt  it 
my  doty  to  present  this  Petition,  relating, 
as  it  does,  to  a  public  matter  of  the  highest 
importance.  But  there  are  some  reasons  in 
the  Petition  itself  which  certainly  make  me 
feel  it  not  my  duty — whatever  course 
other  noble  Lords  may  think  it  right  to 
adopt— -to  ask  your  Lordships  to  assent  in 
this  case  to  the  appointment  of  the  Com- 
mittee which  is  asked  for.  In  the  first 
place,  I  cannot  agree  with  the  allegation 
of  Mr.  Rigby  Wason  that  when  Sir  FitaRoy 
Kelly  was  appointed  Solicitor  General  by 
Sir  Robert  Peel  it  was  not  a  matter  of  great 
public  importance,  or  that  if  Sir  Robert 
Peel  had  been  deceived  it  was  not  a  question 
in  which  Mr.  Wason  ought  to  feel  any  inter- 
est. Now,  in  the  first  place,  a  gentleman 
of  the  Bar  who  is  appointed  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral is  in  the  direct  road  to  promotion  to 
the  office  of  a  Judge,  and  it  would  be  a 
great  injustice  to  the  public  to  appoint  any 
man  to  be  Solicitor  General  who  had  no- 
toriously been  guilty  of  pledging  his  honour 
as  a  gentleman  to  the  truth  of  that  which 
he  knew  to  be  false ;   and,  therefore,  if 

tion,  or  indiotment  for  libel,  in  respect  or  on 
aooonnt  of  any  faithfbl  report  of  proceedings  at 
any  sitting  of  either  House  of  Parliament,  at 
which  strangers  have  been  permitted  to  be 

In  his  speech  in  moving  the  Second  Read- 
ing, after  a  fall  exposition  of  the  law  on 
the  publication  of  reports  of  proceedings 
in  Parliament,  Lord  Campbell  said — 

"  Mr.  Hansard,  a  name  well  known  to  their 
Ijordships,  after  stating  that  he  had  not  had  ac- 
tions brought,  but  had  been  in  constant  dread  of 
them,  gave  this  evidence : 

" '  lour  Lordships  are  very  well  aware  that  my 
publication  is  the  only  publication  which  pro- 
^Nues  to  record  the  proceedings  of  Parliament 
tfi  extauOf  and  with  very  considerate  fidelity,  but 
that  I  am  not  in  any  way  recognized— that  I  have 
no  protection  whatever  more  than  any  other  per« 
son  who  should  publish  in  exUnso  or  otherwise 
any  reports  of  debates  in  your  Lordships'  House 
or  of  debates  in  the  other  House.  Now,  the  con- 
sequence of  the  present  state  of  the  Law  of  Libel  is 
this  :  that  if  matter  is  uttered  in  debate  in  either 
House  which  would  be  libellous  and  would  be  un- 
protected if  published  out  of  the  House,  I  am 
obliged  to  consider  whether  it  would  be  safe  for 

there  had  been  ground  for  charging  sach 
an  offence  against  Sir  FitzRoy  Kelly, 
it  was  Mr.  Rigby  Wason 's  duty  to  have 
broaght  the  matter  before  Sir  Robert  Peel. 
Nobody  can  believe  that  Sir  Robert  Peel 
would  have  thought  lightly  of  such  a 
charge,  or  would  have  appointed  Sir  Fitz- 
Roy Kelly  Solicitor  General  without  any 
contradiction  of  the  charge  so  made  against 
him.  It  appears  to  me,  first,  that  Sir 
Robert  Peel  having  appointed  Sir  FitzRoy 
Kelly  to  be  Solicitor  General  was  satisfied 
of  his  integrity  and  his  fitness  for  the 
office,  and  that  ho  should  be  advanced  ia 
the  usual  manner.  In  the  next  place,  it 
appears  to  me  that  Mr.  Rigby  Wason  could 
hardly  have  refrained  from  pressing  his 
charges  from  any  feeling  of  personal  ten- 
derness for  Sir  FitzRoy  Kelly,  but  rather 
because  he  felt  that  his  proofs  were  ia- 
sufficient.  But  I  have  bad  further  in- 
formation upon  the  subject  since  I  came 
to  that  decision.  Mr.  Rigby  Wason  sent 
me  copies  of  letters  which  he  had  written 
to  the  noble  Earl  opposite  (the  Earl  of 
Derby),  and  to  Mr.  Walpole,  the  Home 
Secretary,  bringing  these  charges,  and  I 
have  also  received  the  answer  sent  from  Sir 
FitiRoy  Kelly  to  Mr.  Walpole,  stating  that 
he  would  send  an. answer  more  in  detail  on 
a  future  day ;  but,  meanwhile,  totally 
denying  the  truth  of  these  allegations.  I 
have  since  seen  a  statement  under  the  hand 
of  Sir  FiCaRoy  Kelly  himself,  in  which  he 
not  only  denies  the  truth  of  these  allega- 

me  to  print  that  matter ;  and  if  I  am  clearly  of 
opinion  that  it  would  not  be  safe  for  me  to  do  to, 
inasmuch  as  the  publication  is  not  of  such  a  na- 
ture that  I  could  stand  the  expenses  of  a  prosecu- 
tion, the  result  is  that  I  strike  the  matter  oat 
without  any  attempt  at  modification  or  otherwiaa. 
" '  That  apprehension  induces  you  to  suppress 
that  which  ought  to  appear  if  the  report  were 
fully  accurate  f  It  ia,  advisedly  and  systemati- 
caUy  so.' " 

Lord  Wensleydale  opposed  the  Bill,  and 
moved  its  rejection ;  and  after  an  instruc- 
tive debate,  in  which  the  present  Lora 
Chancellor  (who  at  that  time  also  held  the 
dreat  Seal)  spoke  strongly  against  the 
measure,  the  Amendment  was  carried  by 
a  majority  of  35  to  7,  and  the  Bill  was 
thrown  out. 

Under  such  a  state  of  the  law,  and  such 
being  the  declared  opinion  of  Parliament 
on  the  subject,  and  considering  that  the 
vindication  of  the  Lord  Chief  Baron's  cha- 
racter was  the  essential  part  of  the  discus- 
sion, Mr.  Hansard  holds  it  within  his  dis- 
cretion to  restrict  his  report  to  that  point.  J 



ITmvuAXT  12,  1867)  ] 



tioDt,  but  enters  into  ezplanationi  for  the 
parpote  of  i bowing  hoir  totally  unfounded 
they  are.  In  the  first  plaoe»  he  itates— 
what  Mr.  Rigby  Waaon  does  not  state- 
that  the  particular  charge  in  which  he  is 
accused  of  hsTing  stated  what  was  false 
was  founded  on  a  statement  which  Mr. 
Bigby  Wason  alleges  Sir  FitsRpy  Kelly 
to  have  made,  that  he  was  not  acquainted 
personally  with  a  Mr.  Pilgrim,  and  knew 
nothing  whatever  of  him.  Sir  FitsRoy 
Kelly  says  that  he  never  made  such  a  state- 
ment, for  it  was  notorious  that  he  knew 
Pilgrim,  who  was  clerk  in  the  office  of  a 
solicitor  at  Ipswich.  He  further  says  that 
by  accident  Mr.  Gumey,  the  shorthand 
writer,  had  kept  his  notes  of  that  speech, 
and  that  the  notes  contained  no  such  state- 
ments as  those  embodied  in  the  allegations. 
The  truth  of  that  charge  being  thus  denied, 
Sir  FitsRoy  Kelly  proceeds  to  say  that,  so 
far  from  Sir  Robert  Peel  having  any  diffi- 
culty or  doubt  about  appointing  him,  he 
was  afterwards  appointed  under  another 
Government  to  the  same  office.  The  Elec- 
tion Committee  which,  as  I  have  already 
stated,  reported  that  Sir  FitsRoy  Kelly 
had  been  guilty  of  bribery,  could  not  have 
found  that  he  was  personally  cognisant  of 
bribery,  for  they  reported  that  it  was  com- 
mitted through  his  friends  and  agents. 
It  therefore  appears  to  me  that  the  allega- 
tions fall  to  the  ground.  It  seems  to  me 
impossible  that  since  1835,  now  nearly 
thirty-two  years  ago.  Sir  FitsRoy  Kelly 
could  have  been  a  candidate  for  Ipswich, 
afterwards  a  candidate  and  Member  for 
Cambridge,  and  finally  Member  for  Suffolk 
-—having  been  elected,  I  believe,  six  times 
for  that  county — without  these  circum- 
stances being  brought  to  light.  It  seems 
to  me  quite  impossible — the  speech  having 
been  taken  in  shorthand— that  some  of  bis 
constituents  or  opponents  would  not  have 
brought  the  matter  forward  during  the 
excitement  that  usually  takes  place  during 
a  General  Election.  For  these  reasons, 
though  I  have  thought  it  right  to  present 
the  Petition,  as  I  have  already  stated,  I  do 
not  support  its  prayer  or  intend  to  found 
any  Motion  upon  it. 

Lord  ST.  LEONARDS  having  re- 
quested that  the  prayer  of  the  Petition 
might  be  read  by  the  Clerk  at  the  table, 
the  Clerk  read  as  follows :— 


"Tonr  Petitioner  therefore  prays  your  right 
honourable  Houae  to  appoint  a  Committee  to  in- 
quire into  the  dlstinot  Charge  which  has  been 
made  ;  and  that  if  sooh  Committee  find*  that  Sir 
Fitan^  Kelly  has  been  guilty  of  that  with  which 

he  has  been  chsrjied,  then  that  yonr  right  honour- 
able House  will  join  the  other  House  of  Parlia- 
ment in  moTing  an  Address  to  the  Queen,  praying 
that  Sir  Fitzroy  KeUy  may  be  reliered  from  his 
jttdioial  position." 

Thb  lord  CHANCELLOR:  The 
noble  Earl  (Earl  Russell)  was  good  enough 
to  giro  nie  a  copy  of  the  Petition  which  he 
has  presented  for  the  purpose  of  sending 
it  to  my  right  hon.  and  learned  Friend  the 
Lord  Chief  Baron  ;  and  I  have  receired 
from  him  information  which  I  trust  will 
enable  me  to  answer  the  Petition  fully  and 
satisfactorily.  My  Lords,  I  think  the  noble 
Earl  might  have  been  excused  if  he  had 
declined  to  present  a  Petition  of  this 
character ;  and  certainly  the  course  he 
has  taken  is  one  of  an  unusual  de- 
scription, for  he  has  adopted  the  unusual 
course  of  reading  through  every  part  of  it, 
and  has,  as  he  proceeded,  given  a  refutation 
of  every  charge  contained  in  it ;  I  cannot 
help  thinking,  then,  that  it  would  have 
better  beoome  the  noble  Earl  if  he  had, 
under  the  circumstances,  declined  to  take 
charge  of  the  Petition.  I  know  an  im- 
pression prevails  that  if  a  petition  is 
couched  in  respectful  terms  to  the  House, 
no  Member  ought  to  refuse  to  present  it ; 
but  ever  since  I  have  had  the  honour  of  a 
seat  in  your  Lordships*  House  I  have  ven- 
tured to  act  upon  a  different  principle,  and 
I  have  exercised  a  discretion  with  reference 
to  petitions  which  have  been  intrusted  to 
me.  I  have  no  doubt  that  the  noble 
Earl  was  acting  from  a  -  different  impres- 
sion as  to  the  duty  of  a  Member  of  this 
House;  and  I  am  quite  sure  I  do  him  no 
leas  than  justice  when  I  say  that  he  was 
not  very  well  pleased  with  the  task  which 
his  sense  of  duty  compelled  him  to  under- 
take. Now,  my  Lords,  assuming  every 
word  of  this  Petition  to  be  true,  we  must 
not  forget  that  the  facts  upon  which  these 
most  grave  charges  against  the  Lord  Chief 
Baron  are  founded  took  place  no  less  than 
thirty-two  years  ago,  and  that  during  that 
long  period  my  right  hon.  and  learned  Friend 
has  twice  held  the  office  of  Solicitor  Qene- 
ral,  and  once  that  of  Attorney  General — 
and  the  noble  Earl  was  perfectly  right  in 
saying  that  these  offices  are  generally 
looked  upon  as  giving  a  sort  of  inchoate 
right  to  the  highest  seat  upon  the  judicial 
bench — my  right  hon.  and  learned  Friend 
has  also  stood  election  tests ;  he  has  re* 
presented  the  county  of  Suffolk,  I  think, 
in  three  different  Parliaments,  and  your 
Lordships  will  very  well  believe  that  if 
there  should  be  any  moral  stain  upon  the 

K  2 


The  Lord 


Chief  Barm. 


character  of  a  candidate  for  Parliamentary 
houoars  it  is  likely  to  be  drawn  out  in 
the  heat  of  a  contested  election.  Your 
Lordships  may  naturally  wonder  why  Mr. 
Rigby  Wason  lias  kept  silence  so  long, 
and  why  he  has  chosen  to  speak  at  last. 
This  he  explains,  or  endeaYOurs  to  explain, 
in  his  Petition.  He  says  that  at  the  time 
my  right  hon.  and  learned  Friend  was  ap- 
pointed Solicitor  General  be  was  applied 
to  by  Sir  Robert  Peel  to  give  information 
as  to 

"  the  facta  respecting  the  conduct  of  Mr. 
Kelly,  but  be  declined  to  do  so  on  the  ground 
that  he  had  no  personal  feeling  in  the  nuitter,  and 
that  Mr.  Kelly  could  not  inflict  greater  injury 
upon  the  public  as  Solicitor  General  than  he 
could  as  a  Barrister  in  full  practice." 

,The  noble  Earl  forestalled  me  in  the  an- 
swer to  this  statement  when  he  remarked 
that  there  was  a  very  material  di£ference 
between  a  barrister  in  ordinary  practice 
and  a  person  of  that  description  being  se- 
lected by  favonr  of  the  Crown  and  placed 
at  the  head  of  the  profession,  having  thus 
as  it  were  a  passport  to  the  judicial  bench. 
The  Petitioner  says  the  reason  he  has 
now  ceased  to  be  silent  upon  the  subject 
is — 

"  That  your  Petitioner  submits  to  your  right 
honourable  House  that  the  appointment  of  a 
Judge  should  be  governed  by  very  different  prin- 
ciples from  those  which  might  excuse  the  appoint- 
ment of  Solicitor  or  Attorney  General ;  and  that 
the  precedent  held  out  to  the  Bar,  that  wilful  and 
deliberate  Fidsehood  should  be  no  bar  to  attaining 
the  position  of  a  Judge,  must  be  fraught  with  the 
most  disastrous  consequences  not  only  to  the 
character  of  the  Bar  but  to  Society." 

I  regret,  my  Lords,  that  I  am  obliged  to 
enter  into  matters  of  this  description ;  bat  it 
is  absolutely  necessary  in  order  to  explain 
some  of  the  statements  of  the  Petition. 
In  1837,  then,  Mr.  Kelly  was  a  candidate 
for  the  representation  of  the  borough  of  Ips- 
wich, and  one  of  the  results  of  that  candi- 
dature was  that  Mr.  Rigby  Wason  publicly 
charged  him  with  deliberate  falsehood  be- 
fore a  Committee  of  the  House  of  Com- 
mous.  The  laws  of  honour,  as  they  are 
called,  which  prevailed  at  that  time,  pre- 
vented ^  man  from  sitting  tamely  under  an 
imputation  of  this  description,  and  com- 
pelled him  to  attempt  to  vindicate  his 
honour  by  washing  out  the  affront  by  the 
blood  of  his  libeller.  Few  men  were  then 
able  to  brave  the  public  scorn  which  at- 
tended any  attempt  to  disregard  this  evil 
custom,  and  your  Lordships  will  look  pro- 
bably with  some  forbearance  on  the  conduct 
of  my  right  hon.  Friend  in  having  de- 
manded what  is  called  "  satisfaction  "  from 

ITie  Lord  Chancellor 

Mr.  Rigby  Wason.  Mr.  Rigby  Wason 
refused  the  meeting  proposed  by  ICr. 
Kelly;  and  on  a  consequent  proceeding 
of  the  latter,  he  applied  for  a  criminal  in* 
formation  against  my  right  hon.  Fnend  for 
endeavouring  to  provoke  him  to  fight  a 
duel.  This  information  failed,  on  grounds 
which  I  shall  presently  explain.  This  being 
the  ground  of  the  feeling  of  the  Petitioner 
towards  Mr.  Kellyi  I  have  heard  it  said  by 
some,  "  Why  not  treat  such  charges  as 
this  with  profound  contempt  ?  "  But,  un- 
fortunately, a  person  charged  in  this  House 
in  this  way  caunotafford  to  do  so,  because  the 
public  will  believe  that  such  charges  remained 
unanswered  only  because  they  were  unan- 
swerable ;  therefore,  I  must  ask  your  Lord- 
ships to  allow  me  to  go  through  the  charges 
contained  in  this  Petition  as  briefly  as  I 
can.     The  first  charge  is — 

"  That  Sir  Fitzroy  Kelly,  then  Mr.  Kelly,  haviog 
been  eleren  years  at  the  Bar,  and  being  a  (Queen's 
Counsel,  did,  upon  the  11th  of  April,  1835,  pledge 
his  Honor  as  a  Gentleman  to  the  truth  of  that 
which  he  knew  to  be  false,  for  the  puipoee  of  de- 
ceiving a  Committee  of  the  Hoose  of  Commons." 

This  charge  is  couched  in  the  most  vague 
and  general  terms,  and  therefore  only  ad- 
mits of  a  general  denial ;  but,  fortunatel  j» 
an  interpretation  has  been  given  to  it  iu 
the  letters  to  which  the  noble  Earl  alluded 
as  having  been  sent  to  my  noble  Friend  at 
the  head  of  the  Government,  and  to  mj 
right  hon.  Friend  the  Secretary  of  State 
for  the  Home  Department.  In  the  letter 
to  my  noble  Friend  Mr.  Wason  sayi — 

"  Sir  Fitsroy  Kelly  was  retamed  to  Parliament 
in  1834  with  Mr.  Dundas.  A  petition  was  pre- 
sented by  electors  of  Ipswich,  but  supported  by 
my  colleague  and  myself,  and  our  senior  counsel 
opened  sereral  distinct  charges  of  bribery  ;  among 
others,  one  of  the  most  important  as  a£feoting 
agency  was  committed  by  Mr.  Pilgrim.  In  reply, 
Mr.  Kelly  assured  the  Committee,  upon  his  honour 
as  a  gentleman,  that  he  had  nerer  heard  of  any 
person  of  the  name  of  Pilgrim,  and  actnally 
charged  as  with  having  invented  the  story,  whiob, 
he  said,  was  almost  proved  by  the  very  name  we 
had  selected." 

Mr.  Wason  then  goes  on  to  say  in  hia 

Petition — 

^*  That  such  judicial  tribunal  was  deceived  by 
such  assertions  of  Mr.  Kelly's,  and  he  received 
the  Fruits  of  his  falsehood  by  the  Committee  de- 
ciding <  That  no  illegal  act  had  been  established 
against  Mr.  Kelly  and  his  Colleague.'    That  the 
Committee  then  adjourned  until  the  middle  of 
May,  when  it  met,  and  proceeded  with  the  Scm* 
tiny,  which  was  interrupted  by  the  Pedtionem 
producing  distinct  evidence  proving  beyond  all 
doubt  that  the  assertions  made  by  K&.  Kelly  were 
fiUse.    That  the  Committee,  therefore,  not  only 
rescinded  the  above  Resolution,  but  resolved  that 
Mr.  Kelly  and  his  Colleague  were,  by  their  Friends 
and  Agents,  guilty  of  BrUtery  and  Corruption,  and 


The  Lord 

{Febkuabt  12,1867) 

Chief  JBarofU 


Oai  the  oppontion  io  the  Petition  wm  friTolous 

I  will  satisfj  your  LordBhipi   that   tliia 
stitemeot  was  utterly  incorrect.     In  1834 
Vr.  Kelly  waa  returned  with  Mr.  Dundaa, 
fir  Ipawich,  and  a  petition,  on  the  ground 
of  bribeiy,  was  presented  against  their  re- 
tarn.    One  of  the  charges  was  that  one  of 
the  Toters  had   been  promised  £20  hy  a 
man  named  Pilgrim,  and  that  the  money 
bad  mbsequently  been  paid  by  that  person. 
Wbca  the  ease  arrired  at  the  point  where 
it  wu  necessary  to   sum  up  on  behalf  of 
tbe  sitting  Members,  the  coonsel  were  all 
sbent«   and   my    right  hon.  Friend   was 
obhged  to  take  tbe  duty  upon  himself.     It 
ii  untrue  that  in    doing  bo  he  denied  all 
knowledge  of  Mr.  Pilgrim.     On  the  con- 
tiarj,  he  referred  to  him  as  a  clerk  in  the 
employ  of  Messrs.  Sewell  and  Blake,  aoli- 
citofs  of  Ipawich,  with  whom  he  had  fre- 
^neatly  been  in  communication,  and  from 
whom  be  had  receiTed- many  briefs.   What 
be  contended  was,  that  there  was  no  evi- 
deace  of  agency,  and  that,  consequently, 
there  was  no  eyidenoe  against  the  sitting 
Members.     The  Committee  having  come 
to  that  conclusion  then  adjourned  for  a 
esnsiderable  time  for  a  scrutiny.      Soon 
after  Pilgrim  went  over  to  the  enemy's 
camp  snd  appeared,  and  not  only  proved 
tbe  act   of  bribery   to  which  I  have  re- 
ferred, but  also  proved  hia  own  agency  in 
tbe  matter.     Of  course,  under 'these  cir- 
cnmstances,  the  Committee  had  no  other 
coarse  open  but  to  rescind  the  Besolution 
at  which  they  had  arrived.     Now,  it  may 
be  asked,  how  do  I  prove  that  what  my 
light  hon.  Friend  said  was  not  faUe,  as  is 
asserted  by  Mr.  Wasou  ?     Mr.  Wason  as- 
serts that  my  right  hon.  Friend  denied  all 
knowledge  of  Mr.  Pilgrim.      It  is    very 
hard  to  prove  a  negative;  but  it  happens, 
fortunately,  that  there  were  notes  taken  of 
my  right  hon.  Friend 'a  speech  by  a  short- 
band  writer,  and  from  the  beginning  to  the 
ead  of  that  speech,  which  has  been  care- 
fslly  searched  through,  not  only  by  my 
right  lion.  Friend,  but  by  another  gentle- 
man, a  barrister  of  reputation,  there  will 
be  found  no  passage  to  sustain  this  charge. 
My  right  hon.  Friend  in  a  letter  to  Mr. 
Walpole,  and  referring  to  thia  speech,  says  : 

**  I  have  carefully  looked  through  it  from  the 
kegianing  to  end,  and  there  is  not  ono  word  to  be 
feaod  in  it  having  tbe  semblance  of  a  deolaration 
•ii  honour,  or  an  aseeKion,  or  a  suggestion  thst 
Mr.  Pilgrim  was  unknown  to  me,  or  l^t  no  suoh 
fetum  existed." 

Mr.  Pbillpotts,  the  barrister  to  whom   I 
bare  alluded,  writes  as  follows  : — 
*'Uj  dear  Lord  Chief  Baron.— Before  attend- 

ing the  consultation  of  the  late  Solicitor  General's 
chambers,  I  oarefolly  read  yonr  spoeohof  the  11  th 
and  13th  of  April,  1835,  referred  to  by  Mr.  Wason 
in  his  proposed  Petition  to  the  House  of  Commons, 
and  can  confidently  say  that  there  is  not  in  that 
speech  any  such  deolaration  as  Mr.  Wason  alleges  ; 
nor  any  assertion  or  suggestion  that  you  did  not 
know  Mr.  Pilgrim  ;  nor  a  sentence  that  can  be 
distorted  into  meaning  anything  of  the  kind.  In- 
deed,  certain  passages  in  the  speech  appear  wholly 
inconsistent  with  any  such  declaration.-^ Belieye 
me,  yours  sincerely,  W.  F.  Phillpotts.  ' 

There  is  another  circumstance  which  I  will 
mention  to  yonr  Lordships  as  bearing  out 
my  statement.  According  to  this  statement 
made  by  Mr.  Wason,  Sir  FitzRoy  Kolly 
had  been  detected  in  the  most  discreditable 
falsehood  it  is  possible  for  a  man  to  utter, 
and  this  offence  had  been  committed  in  the 
face  of  the  Committee  and  in  the  presence 
of  the  opposing  counsel.  When  the  Com- 
mittee re-assemhled  my  right  hon.  Friend 
appeared  as  before,  and  summed  up  the 
case  for  the  sitting  Members  as  he  had 
previously  done.  There  was  no  disgust  or 
indignation  exhibited  on  that  occasion  by 
any  Member  of  the  Committee,  nor  did 
the  opposing  counsel  suggest  in  any  way 
that  anything  had  occurred  to  render  him 
unworthy  of  credit  or  in  the  slightest  degree 
to  disparage  his  testimony.  Now,  my  Lords, 
let  me  pass  to  the  second  chorge.  That 
second  charge  is  conveyed  in  the  following 
words : — 

"  That  your  Petitioner  humbly  submits  to  your 
right  honourable  House  that  the  conduct  of  which 
Mr.  Kelly  was  guilty  was  precisely  the  same,  morally 
speaking,  as  wilful  and  deliberate  perjury  to  bene- 
fit himself,  as  stated  by  the  late  Lord  Chief  Justice 
Ocnman,  who  rebuked  Mr.  Kelly's  Counsel  by 
remarking,  in  an  indignant  manner,  '  Do  not  go 
on  this  way,  Mr.  Attorney  ;  this  Court  knows  no 
distinction  between  what  a  man  swears  and  what  he 
says  upon  his  honour  as  a  Gentleman." 

I  am,  fortunately,  very  easily  able  to  ex- 
plain this  matter.  At  the  election  of  1837 
to  which  I  have  already  alluded,  Mr.  Wason 
stated  that  my  right  hon.  Friend,  before  a 
Committee  of  the  House  of  Commons,  had 
called  God  to  witness  that  he  had  nothing 
to  do  with  the  absconding  of  Mr.  Pilgrim 
to  avoid  the  Speaker's  warrant.  The  ob- 
servation of  Lord  Denman  referred  to  the 
criminal  information  which  Mr.  Wason  had 
filed  against  my  right  hon.  Friend.  In 
tiie  affidavit  Mr.  Wason  did  not  state,  aa 
he  had  stated  at  the  hustings,  that  my 
right  hon.  Friend  had  called  God  to  witness; 
but  merely  that  he  had  asserted  on  hia 
honour  that  he  was  no  party  to  the  ab- 
sconding of  Pilgrim.  The  affidavit  of  my 
right  hon.  Friend  denies  tliat  lie  employed 
either  of  the  expressions,  though  he  con- 
^  tended  that  if  he  had  said  either  it  would 


The  Lard 


Chief  Baron. 


have  been  perfectly  true.  The  Attorney 
General  who  was  counsel  for  my  right  hon. 
Friend  on  that  occasion,  referred  to^the 
discrepancy  between  the  assertion  of  Mr. 
Wason  in  the  affidavit  and  on  the  hustings 
drawing  a  distinction  between  a  mere  as- 
sertion and  a  statement  upon  oath.  Lord 
Benman,  with  an  indignation  which  burst 
forth  whenever  he  had  any  idea  there  was 
an  intention  of  confounding  moral  distinc- 
tions, said — 

^  That  Trhateyer  a  gfcntieman  professes  to  de- 
clare, appealing  to  his  own  knowledge  on  the 
subject,  must  be  taken  to  have  been  as  solemnly 
made  as  if  any  obligation  or  any  form  of  words 
had  been  appended  to  it." 

But  in  delivering  judgment,  Lord  Denman 

expressed  his  opinion  that  there  was  no 

proof  that  my  right  hon.  Friend  had  made 

use  of  the  expression  attributed  to  him  by 

Mr.  Wason — he  said  that  Mr.  Wason  would 

not  attempt  to  prove  it,  and   would  not 

pledge  his  oath  to  that  belief.  Under  these 

circumstances,  the  criminal  information  fell 

to  the  ground.     And  now,  my  Lords,  I 

come  to  the  third  charge,  which  is  made 

in  the  following  terms  :-^ 

"That  your  Petitioner  has  been  informed  and 
belieyes  that  the  late  Sir  Robert  Peel,  ten  yean 
afterwards,  positively  refused  to  appoint  Mr.  Kelly 
as  his  Solicitor  General,  upon  account  of  his  con- 
duct before  the  Ipswich  Election  Committee ;  and 
that  the  Right  Hon.  Gentleman's  legitimate  scru« 
pies  were  overcome  by  a  fraud/'  • 

Now,  this  charge  amounts  to  this — that  on 
Sir  Robert  Feel  hesitating  to  appoint  my 
right  hon.  Friend  as  his  Solicitor  Gener^ 
his  scruples  were  removed  by  his  having 
palmed  off  upon  him  the  evidence  given 
before  the  Committee,  which  was  published 
in  the  blue  book,  and  which  did  not,  of 
course,  contain  my  right  hon.  Friend's 
speech,  in  which  this  remark  complained 
of  was  said  to  have  occurred.  Now,  it  so 
happens  that  I  am  personally  able  to  con- 
tradict this  charge.  I  was  Solicitor  Gene- 
ral on  the  28tb  of  June,  1845,  when  the 
death  of  my  lamented  and  very  dear  friend 
Sir  William  FoUett,  the  Attorney  General, 
occurred.  The  funeral  took  place  on  tho 
4th  of  July,  and  immediately  after  the 
funeral  I  attended  Sir  Robert  Peel  by 
appointment  at  Whitehall.  He  informed 
me  that  I  was  to  be  made  Attorney 
General.  I  said,  "  Who  is  to  be  my 
Solicitor?"  He  said  "Kelly;"  and 
my  right  hon.  Friend  has  the  notiGca- 
tion  of  his  appointment  to  the  Solicitor 
Generalship  on  that  very  day  now  in  his 
possession.  Some  little  correspondence, 
of  which  I  was  not  aware  until  it  was  com- 
municated to  me  by  my  right  hon.  Friend, 

The  Imd  Chancelhr 

had  passed  between  my  right  hon.  Friend 
and  Sir  Robert  Peel  in  the  interval  elapsiii|( 
between  the  death  of  Sir  William  Folleti 
and  my  right  hon.  Friend's  appointment. 
About  that  time  a  question  of  privilege 
was  under  discussion,  and  my  right  hon. 
Friend  was  not  so  strong  an  assertor  of 
the  privileges  of  the  House  of  Commons 
as  Sir  Robert  Peel,  and  this  occasioned  m 
correspondence  ;  and  this  was  the  occasion 
of  the  delay — if  there  was  any  delay — and 
not  any  unfavourable  rumours  against  the 
character  of  my  right  hon.  Friend.  I  will 
not  apologize  for  trespassing  thus  much 
upon  your  Lordships'  attention,  becauae  the 
question  is  one  of  the  utmost  importance. 
If  my  right  hon.  Friend  had  been  guilty 
of  the  conduct  attributed  to  him  in  this 
Petition  he  would  not  attempt  to  defend 
himself  by  saying  that  there  ought  to  be  a 
limitation  to  charges  of  this  description  ; 
and  I  should  certainly  agree  in  the  opinion 
that  a  person  who  is  contaminated  by  soch 
scandalous  conduct  as  has  been  attributed 
to  my  right  hon.  Friend  is  utterly  unworthy 
of  being  raised  to  the  judicial  bench.  The 
noble  and  learned  Lord  concluded  by  as- 
serting that  he  had  fully  confuted  the 
charges  of  the  Petition  against  the  Lord 
Chief  Baron. 

Lord  ST.  LEONARDS :  tfy  Lords,  I 
am  unwilling  to  occupy  your  Lordships* 
time  further ;  but  I  feel  myself  bound  to 
make  an  appeal  to  the  noble  Earl  to  with- 
draw the  Petition.  The  noble  Earl  must 
be  aware  what  is  the  constitutional  mode 
of  proceeding  against  a  Judge  who  is  con- 
sidered unfit  to  occupy  his  seat  on  the 
judicial  bench.  In  the  first  place,  it  is 
necessary  that  there  should  be  a  direct 
inquiry  into  the  charges, at  the  Bar  of  your 
Lordships*  House  and  at  the  Bar  of  the 
other  House ;  that  Committees  should  be  ap- 
pointed by  each  to  further  inquire  into  the 
matter ;  and  that  there  should  be  an  agree- 
ment between  both  Houses  to  present  an 
Address  to  the  Crown  praying  that  the 
Judge  should  be  removed  from  the  judg- 
ment seat.  It  is  impossible  that  there  can 
be  s  question  of  deeper  interest  to  the 
entire  country  than  such  an  inquiry.  One 
great  element  in  the  happinesa  and  the 
glory  of  this  country  is  the  upright  cha- 
racter of  the  Judges  who  administer  jus- 
tice. Does  the  noble  Earl  believe  for  a 
moment  that  if  the  Petition  is  permitted  to 
lie  upon  the  table  of  the  House,  answered 
as  it  can  only  be  at  present  by  the 
denial  of  its  truth,  it  is  possible  for 
the  Lord  Chief  Baron  of  England  to  ait 
for    another   hour   upon   the  judgment 


The  Lord 

{FsBRUABTli,  1867} 



seat  of  tbe  Exchequer  ?     Can  he  remain 
there  oatil  the   proper  iteps  have  been 
taken  to  investigate  the  truth  or  falsehood 
of  tbe  charges  which  haye  been  brought 
againjt  him  ?     How  can  he  sit  to  admi- 
Di'iter  justice   with    charges  of   this  sort 
^nging  oTer  htm — chargei  which,  if  true, 
would  render  him  utterly  unfit  to  sit  in 
the  soeietj   of  geutlemen  ?     What  would 
bceooie  of  joatice  when  so  administered  ? 
IiisTerj  di£Sca1t  in  ordinary  cases  to  make 
s  defeated  suitor  beliere  that  the  judgment 
sganist  him  is  jnst,  even  where  the  cha- 
raeter,  honoar,  and  integrity  of  the  Judge 
is  untainted  ;  but  what  would  be  the  effect 
spoD  such  a  man*B  mind  when  the  character 
of  tbe  Judge  pronouncing  the  judgment  has 
boeo  bronght  before  your  Lordships'  House, 
OB  allegations  such  as  those  contained  in 
the  Petition  presented  by  the  noble  Earl  ? 
The  noble  £arl  has  more  than  once  been 
Prime  Minister  in   this  country,  and  no 
person  is  better  versed  than  himself  in  the 
steps  that  he  is  bound  to  take  shonld  he 
insist  upon  the  Petition  laying  upon  the 
table  of  the   House.     I  utterly  deny  that 
it  is  possible  for  him  to  lay  that  document 
Bpon  the  table,' and  then  to  withdraw  from 
farther  interference   in    the  matter,   and 
leaTe  the  whole  responsibility  upon  your 
Lordships.     I  trust  that  if  the  noble  Earl 
b  impressed,  as  he  says  he  is^-and  there- 
fore I  am  bound  to  believe  that  to  be  the 
ease — with  the  truth  of  the   Lord  Chief 
Baron's   denial   of    the   charges    brought 
sgainst  him,  he  will  handsomely  withdraw 
the  Petition,  and  will  not  suffer  it  to  remain 
on  the  table  of  the  House.      It  cannot 
remain  there  without  further  steps  being 
taken  ;    and  if  it   be    not    withdrawn   it 
is    utterly     impossible     that    the     Lord 
Chief  Baron,   with  such    terriblo  imputa- 
tions upon  his  character,  can  continue  to 
discharge    his    duties  as  the  chief  of  the 
Court  of  Exchequer.      Upon  the  charge 
itself  I  shall  not  dwell  fire  minutes.     In 
the  first  place,  what  does  it  amount  to? 
It  appears  that  there  was  a  contested  elec- 
tion, and  unhappily  the  principal  counsel 
of  the  then  Mr.   Kelly,  being  unable  to 
attend  on  his  behalf  before  the  Committee 
of  the  House,  the  right  hon.  Gentleman 
wss  induced  at  the  last  moment  to  address 
tiie  Committee  on  his  own  behalf — a  most 
mwise   step   undoubtedly  —  and    in   that 
double  capacity  of    both   Member  whose 
seat  was  being  contested,  and  of  counsel, 
be  is  said  to  have  made  a  statement  which 
wss  false  to  his  knowledge.     It  is  admitted 
that  if  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  made  the 
itaCement,  he  must  hare  made  it  knowing 

it  to  be  false,  because  he  had  been  for 
years  perfectly  acqusinted  with  the  person 
in  question.  Is  there  any  e?idence  in 
support  of  the  charge  that  he  denied  on 
that  occasion  all  knowledge  of  this  person  ? 
Not  the  slightest  evidence  exists  which 
can  in  any  way  substantiate  the  statement 
contained  in  the  Petition.  The  note  taken 
by  our  onn  shorthand  writer  in  Committees 
does  not  contain  a  single  syllsble  in  sup- 
port of  the  charge.  Who,  then,  is  the  only 
other  witness  ?  Why,  the  Petitioner  him- 
self— a  person  in  hostility  to  the  right  hon. 
Gentleman  upon  the  particular  question 
before  the  Committee.  But  he  makes 
other  statements  in  his  Petition.  He 
states  that  when  Sir  Robert  Peel  wished 
to  make  the  right  hon.  Gentleman  So- 
licitor General,  he  hesitated  to  do  so 
on  account  of  the  right  hon.  Gentle- 
man's bad  character  in  reference  to  this 
very  question,  but  that  he  waa  induced  to 
giro  him  the  appointment  in  consequence 
of  the  entreaties  of  Lord  Lowther,  now 
the  Barl  of  Lonsdale.  The  Earl  of  Lons- 
dale has  been  spoken  to  upon  the  subject, 
And  he  utterly  denies  that  any  such  com- 
munication passed  between  himself  and  Sir 
Robert  Peel  on  this  subject,  or  that  he 
had  any  part  whaterer  in  the  adrancement 
of  the  right  hon.  Gentleman.  Can  your 
Lordships  beliere  that  a  gentleman  of  po- 
sition at  tbe  Bar  and  a  Member  of  the 
other  House  of  Parliament  would  so  far 
forget  his  honour  and  his  feeling  as  a  gen- 
tleman as  to  pledge  himself  to  a  fact  that 
he  knew  to  oe  false }  This  attack  was 
first  made  in  1835,  and  from  that  moment 
down  to  the  present  the  right  hon.  Gen« 
tlemsn  has  been  continually  before  the 
public,  he  has  stood  several  contested  elec- 
tions, and  has  been  returned  six  times 
consecutively  Member  for  bis  county  with- 
out a  single  word  in  reference  to  this 
matter  being  breathed  against  him.  My 
Lords,  I  call  on  the  noble  Earl  opposite 
to  consider  what  a  bad  precedent  hab  been 
made  in  this  case;  for  where  is  the 
roan  whose  character  would  be  safe  if, 
on  the  ground  of  some  speech  or  oon- 
rersation  two  or  three  and  thirty  years 
Ago,  such  a  charge  is  to  be  bronght  against 
him,  the  object  of  which  is  to  remove  him 
with  ignominy  from  the  high  office  he  may 
have  attained  ?  Solemnly  and  seriously, 
I  ask  the  noble  Earl  before  the  world  to 
consider  tho  terrible  consequences  of  the 
step  he  has  been  induced  to  take.  I  ask 
liim  whether,  in  justice  to  my  right 
lion,  and  learned  Friend,  he  does  not  con- 
sider it  his  duty  to  withdraw  this  Petitiou  ? 


ne  Lord 


Cfhief  Baron. 


Eabl  RUSSELL :  I  hope  jour  Lord* 
aBips  will  permit  me  to  refer  again  to  the 
course  I  thought  it  my^dutj  to  take  with 
regard  to  this  Petition.  The  ooble  and 
learned  Lord  on  the  Woclsaok  has  given 
his  opinion  that  it  wouUf  be  better  if  on 
occasions  of  this  kind  na^petition  should  be 
presented.  Now,  I  gtiite  agree  with  the 
noble  and  learned  Lord  that  in  a  mat- 
tor  of  private  concern,  without  anj 
pnblio  object  apparent,  it  would  not  be 
right  to  present  a  petition  of  this  kind  to 
your  Lordships ;  but  this  is  the  case  of 
a  petition  signed  by  a  subject  of  Her 
Majesty,  asking  Her  Majesty  for  a  remedy 
which  is  pointed  out  by  the  Constitution— 
namely,  that  a  certain  charge  being  made 
and  proved,  your  Lordships  should  address 
the  Crown  to  remove  the  Judge.  I  own  it 
appeared  to  me  that  if  petitions  of  that 
sort  were  refused  by  every  Member  of 
your  Lordships'  House,  far  more  injury 
would  be  done  than  could  result  from  their 
presentation  and  discussion,  and  that  eyery 
kind  of  publicity  would  be  given  to  the 
charges  by  publication  in  the  newspapers 
without  the  opportunity  of  refutation.  lu 
the  first  place,  there  would  be  the  appear- 
ance of  sliutting  the  doors  of  this  House 
against  the  petitions  of  the  Queen's  sub- 
jects ;  in  the  next  place,  the  charges  would 
be  repeated  in  the  newspapers  and  pam« 
phlets,  and  without  the  same  opportunity  to 
the  party  charged  of  answering  them. 
My  Lords,  I  did  what  I  considered  to  be 
my  duty  ;  I  took  a  copy  of  the  Petition  to 
the  noble  and  learned  Lord  on  the  Wool- 
sack. I  stated  that  I  looked  to  him  as 
head  of  the  law,  and  I  asked  him  to  have 
the  goodness  to  communicate  to  the  Lord 
Chief  Baron  the  contents  of  the  Petition. 
I  did  this,  that  when  the  Petition  was  pre* 
sented  there  might  be  a  full  opportunity  of 
an  answer  to  the  charges  which  it  con« 
tained.  That  opportunity  the  noble  and 
learned  Lord  on  the  Woolsack  has  fully 
and  properly  availed  himself  of.  He  has 
given  a  complete  answer  to  all  the  charges 
made.  It  appears  to  me  a  matter  of  the 
greatest  public  importance  that  the  cha- 
racter of  our  Judges  should  remain,  as  I 
am  happy  to  think  they  have  hitherto  been, 
unstained  and  pure  in  the  ejen  of  the  pub- 
lic ;  and  I  do  confess  that  it  appears  to  me, 
my  Lords,  better  that  before  an  assembly 
such  as  your  Lordships,  such  charges 
aliould  be  heard  and  refuted,  than  that 
they  should  be  suppressed,  and  that  every 
Peer  should  refuse  to  listen  to  a  petitioner, 
and  that  a  person  aggrieved  should  not 
have  the  opportunity  of  saying  that  he  iras 

Zord  8t.  Leonardo 

not  even  allowed  a  hearing  in  the  House  of 
Lords.  That  was  the  view  I  took  of  this 
matter ;  and  I  own  I  still  think  on  an 
occasion  of  this  kind,  where  great  consti- 
tutional questions  are  concerned,  that 
publicity  and  debate,  either  in  this  or  the 
other  House  of  Parliament,  does  tend  to  the 
public  welfiA*e.  With  regard  to  the  request 
which  the  noble  and  learned  Lord  who 
last  addressed  your  Lordships  (Lord  St. 
Leonards)  has  made,  I  am  not  versed  in  the 
proceedings  of  your  Lordships'  House  with 
respect  to  petitions  of  this  kind,  whether 
they  should  be  allowed  to  lie  on  the  table 
or  be  withdrawn.  I  am  free  to  declare, 
for  my  part,  that  I  am  ready  to  withdraw 
the  Petition.  I  would  refer  the  matter  to 
the  noble  Earl  the  First  Lord  of  the  Tree* 
sury,  who  is  well  versed  in  the  proceedings 
of  the  House.  If  he  declares  that  it  is  in 
conformity  with  the  usual  course  of  pro* 
ceeding  to  withdraw  the  Petition,  I  am 
quite  ready  to  take  that  course.  I  am 
fully  satisfied  that  the  character  pf  the  emi« 
nent  Judge,  so  far  as  it  is  impugned  in  the 
Petition,  remains  unstained  ;  and  that  the 
subjects  of  Her  Majesty  may  have  full 
confidence  in  the  administration  of  justice 
by  that  very  eminent  man,  not  only  from 
his  knowledge  of  the  law  and  great  learn- 
ing, but  also  his  high  personal  character. 

The  EaUl  or  DERBY  :  My  Lords,  as 
the  noble  Earl  has  referred  to  me,  I  will 
say  without  the  slightest  hesitation  that 
if  I  had  been  led  inadvertently  to  present 
such  a  petition,  I  certainly  should  feel  it 
my  duty  to  withdraw 'it  after  the  discusaioa 
'  which  has  taken  place  ;  and  for  this  rea- 
son, that  if  you  present  a  petition  and 
move  that  it  lie  on  the  table,  you  express 
an  opinion  as  to  the  merits  of  the  case. 
But  after  the  discussion  which  has  taken 
place,  after  the  crushing  refutation  of 
every  single  point,  and  the  complete  and 
entire  vindication  of  the  right  hon.  and 
learned  person  who  was  attacked,  I  do 
think  the  House  of  Lords  is  bound  to  go  a 
little  further  than  expressing  no  opinion 
about  it.  After  the  debate  and  refutation 
we  shall  only  be  doing  our  duty  and  sup- 
porting our  own  dignity  and  character  bj 
refusing  to  allow  this  Petition  to  lie  on  the 
table.  I  will  not  question  the  taste  and 
judgment  of  the  noble  Earl  in  bringing  it